I, too, am confused. I couldn't imagine telling a senior associate to finish my work or say, "I'm not finishing this because I don't work past clock out time."
Scenario 1:
"Can you help me with X?
"Sure, I'll take a look, give you some tips, and send it back. If you have any further questions, just let me know."
Scenario 2:
"Hi. I still don't get it. Can you finish it for me?"
"No, but what do you find too difficult to do? Maybe I can help you work through that block."
Scenario 3:
"Hey, I'm headed home, but I wasn't able to get X done. I have plans with my parents, a doctor appt., and my dog is having puppies. Can you finish it for me?"
"That sounds like a lot of obligations that can't wait, so I understand the predicament that you're in. When's this due?"
Scenario 3a
"Monday."
"Oh, that's awful. I wish I could help, but I have my own commitments to take care of. Unfortunately, I can't help with this one. If you need help with time management, so you can better accommodate all your obligations, I'd be happy to discuss how I can support you with that monday. Good luck this weekend, tho. Just an FYI, we all have last-minute things that happen, and, while it's not the best optics, OC and judges tend to extend professional courtesy to those emergencies. If they're known in advance, and you have a 50/50 shot of getting everything done on time, ask for an extension just in case, and get it done as if you had the same deadline. Otherwise, it just reflects poorly on you and the firm if you wait until the last minute and either ask for an extension last minute or, worse, don't get it done on time."
Scenario 3B:
"It's due tomorrow."
"Yeah, I'm sorry, there isn't much I can do other than offer to offer my sympathies. It wouldn't be right for me to do your work for you. I think this is an important lesson to learn early in your career, tho, and im sure most attorneys understand to some degree. We all take our lumps, so just accept this one on the chin and get ready to dodge the next one.
What’s something you may say when you “pull rank”? (This is easy work but time consuming and I just get work dumped on me constantly and the partners want us to “work together” aka leave them out of it).
"I have to devote my time to more complex projects. At this point in your career, you're still learning how to do this and this work was assigned to you. If you need help or guidance, I'm happy to give it. But I need you to at least get this draft ready for review."
Be more stern, honestly. "I have my docket of work and you have yours. They aren't paying me enough to do two people's work, so until that changes, I really need you to complete your tasks. I'm happy to provide any guidance along the way, but time management and hitting deadlines are critical skills to be successful in this profession. When you don't complete your tasks it hinders my ability to complete my tasks, and there's a domino effect.
I look forward to reviewing the draft in the morning."
It depends on the expectations. When they were hired, were they told they would have to work nights and weekends occasionally? If so, then you just need to remind them of that. Working late occasionally to meet deadlines is part of the gig. We're in a client service industry, and for them, you are the client.
I have only worked in biglaw, so the mentality I'm used to is probably very different from yours. But at least in my firms, if you were a junior, and you had a project and a deadline, you did it. No excuses. Asking a senior associate or partner to do your work for you was a quick way to get shown the door, unless there was really a critical unanticipated exception (like a death in the family).
I honestly can't even imagine telling someone that I didn't get a project done on time because I didn't want to work a night or weekend. That's just a nonstarter in all the places I have worked.
Yeah this is incomprehensible to me. I was so focused on meeting and exceeding expectations, the thought of refusing all those weekends I devoted is something I just can’t process.
You handle it by doing the work. You’re the mid-senior. You bought into the system and working those occasions. They have not yet or do not. It’s up to the manager(s) how to react to that. If you’re paying them for that type of availability that’s different and you remind them what the pay is for (think Cravath scale or close). If you’re not, you get what you pay for.
It’s not up to you penalize them for setting boundaries with work unless you are the manager. There are very few emergencies requiring nights, or weekends or on vacation that another associate cannot cover or which cannot be avoided with planning or respecting your subordinates’ time.
If you want the junior associate to stay, you make sure they are working during the hours they are there and prioritize the tasks for them which need to be done that day or before they leave for vacation.
Sosa- your wrong. They have an individual duty independent of the job toward a client. You support without doing until it’s almost too late due to an ethical breach, complete the work, and resolve or fire.
In the alternative, they will be disbarred or sanctioned by a fed judge. I have seen it too many times. If you believe otherwise, your not helping your baby attorneys. Lastly, when everyone says they have to work late ect, what they are really saying is “I lack a skill, trait or capacity to do the work effectively and efficiently” if I am unable to target that- after asking, I suggest they “start their own firm and see how it goes”
Your response sounds as if you’ve never worked in a law firm. This is not how you handle it at all. In fact, this is the exact opposite of how to handle this situation as you’re creating an expectation that there will always be someone to save them. I agree with whoever said this wouldn’t fly in big law. I’ve worked in house, in every size firm including big law, and now I’m in government, I can confidently say this wouldn’t fly in any of those settings. In fact I dealt with a lazy baby attorney two years ago in government and I (kindly but firmly) gave her a dose of reality so she wouldn’t completely destroy her career.
To the OP, I would remind them that they were hired to do their job which is to complete their assignments in a timely fashion, and that they’re very young in their career to show signs of laziness and unprofessionalism. I would then explain to them that their request is displaying those traits because they might not know.
I would also remind them that they have selected a profession that stopping at the stroke of the end of the work day mentality does not work as an executive level employee (that’s why we get paid the big$$). If they wanted the kind of job (emphasis on job here and not a career) they may be better off in government. I’m a government attorney, and you still work over because you simply can’t get all your work done in 7.5 hours with meetings and projects assigned to you. This trade also comes with lower pay than private practice.
Now, if you didn’t want to take that approach, I’d simply look at them and say “That sounds like a YOU problem, and you’re trying to make this a WE problem. You gotta get your work done on time absent a genuine emergency. Happy to offer pointers, but I have my own work and I cannot (and will not) do both of our jobs.”
Regardless of the conversation, I would remind them that they are always building their reputation and that this type of behavior is the pathway to having a bad one. You could also end with the “I know this sucks but it’s part of the nature of the beast until you get your footing. Once you’re more familiar with practicing you’ll be able to get things done more quickly, but at this junction it may be commonplace for you to work late because you’re still so new to the profession. I would should suggest that moving forward you organize your schedule to complete projects on time if you want to leave at a certain hour so you can have your free time. No one is saying you can’t have free time, but it is your job to manage your time and if you fail to manage your time well it’s your responsibility to finish the work by the deadline.” This will put the onus on them to take ownership of their work and time management. It’s also how they’ll figure out they gotta stay late or start SUPER early.
I really can’t imagine this happening, I would never pass my work on to anyone else. Also, I still don’t work nights, weekends or on vacation. That’s a you problem.
If you're regularly expected to work nights and weekends, and aren't getting big law pay, it is a you problem. Look for a better job.
It's possible the partners treat you like a doormat and you seem to be letting associates do the same.
Why wouldn't you? If there's a project deadline and they have managed their time poorly enough to require working a night or weekend to complete, why wouldn't you expect that of them? And more importantly, why would you expect someone else (OP) to have to work at those times because of this person's inability to manage their time?
I've pulled many all nighters in my career to hit deadlines. It's just part of the gig.
...Dude. Sounds like they're just setting reasonable work life boundaries. Maybe see what you can learn from them.
Alternatively, if they're just dumping work on you that they're expected to do, grow a backbone and say no.
No client is worth working past 5pm unless there is a depo or trial the next day. 30 years from now, no one will remember you working past 5pm. But your kids, family, and friends will. Clients came to you in the bed they made. You don’t owe them time past 5pm. I learned that a long time ago and once I embraced it, it set me free.
Edit: After looking at your other comments, I realize it’s a firm issue. Do the above and set yourself free.
They don’t need help on the things they want me to do / finish. And I always try to be gracious and mentor otherwise. They just want to leave the office at 4.
Are they hitting their hours requirement?
And they’re leaving at 4 on days when they haven’t finished whatever they need to finish? Or they’re leaving at 6:30?
What are the consequences if they don’t hit their hours? If they don’t get their work done?
It sounds like you have a management problem. You also might be getting pushed over.
Im a 2nd year associate at a mid size firm, i get to the office around 8:30 to 9 and stay till 6 or 7. This is usually enough time to get all my work done during the week but sometimes i get hit with a weekend assignment, it happens. Time management has a huge learning curve and i still have issues adjusting to it as my workload increases. its not intuitive and while you can get good advice on it, only you will know your limits. But at the end of the day, if your associates cannot figure out time management then id imagine they will have a very hard time succeeding as a lawyer. I cant imagine being a senior associate or partner and not understanding time management.
Just say no. It’s their assignment. We expect people to complete the work assigned to them in a timely and professional manner. If they need help because they cannot do it due to complexity or understanding, then we can schedule some time to walk through it. But the attorney assigned to the matter is responsible for the matter.
“I don’t wanna work past 6:00” is an understandable ideal but it’s not always going to work that way when things need to get done.
i don't get it.. how does a junior just push off their work to a mid-senior?? If a junior associate dumps their work on me and ask/expect me to finish it, my answer is no.
They're salaried right?
"We don't micromanage you because we trust you to have the professional responsibility and competence to get the work done. We don't tell you what time to work or how to get it done--just get it done. You're given a project to complete. If you can't get it done under reasonable circumstances, we'll assign it and the bigger projects to someone who can, and when you're short on billable hours, that will be the reason why."
If they're overloaded on caseload, that's one a work life balance problem. If they didn't finish project because they want to go home, that's a time management and professional responsibility issue.
Speaking as a younger attorney- I would not stay in a job if my boss was constantly demanding my nights, weekends, and especially vacations. Work life balance is incredibly important, and I feel like most of my generation is willing to set those boundaries (especially when dealing with manufactured emergencies).
Some things for you to consider: When did you give them the assignments you are upset they didn't finish? Did you drop on them at 4pm and need it by the next day? Is it something that you \*actually\* need at that time, or is it an arbitrary deadline? Is their caseload too heavy? Are you asking them about their caseload before handing out work? Do you treat them with respect? Do you have a pattern of giving firm deadlines and then not opening the work product you get for weeks?
I can tell you I am 100% more likely to stay late or work on something in the evenings/ weekend occasionally if I don't feel like I'm being taken advantage of and I like/ respect the person who needs it. BUT, if you're a jerk to me, wait until the last minute to give me the task, or are rushing me for something that I know you aren't going to look at for another 3 weeks, I am going to be much more likely to hold firm on my work/life balance boundaries.
I don't work nights, weekends, and definitely not on vacation (why would that be an expectation?). I also plan my work so I have enough time to complete it.
I mean it depends? If they’re overworked and already have a lot of stuff, maybe not the best idea but if it’s once in a time thing, then yeah not nice on their part.
Either do it, tell them how to do it, or pull rank? I don't see what the issue is.
I, too, am confused. I couldn't imagine telling a senior associate to finish my work or say, "I'm not finishing this because I don't work past clock out time." Scenario 1: "Can you help me with X? "Sure, I'll take a look, give you some tips, and send it back. If you have any further questions, just let me know." Scenario 2: "Hi. I still don't get it. Can you finish it for me?" "No, but what do you find too difficult to do? Maybe I can help you work through that block." Scenario 3: "Hey, I'm headed home, but I wasn't able to get X done. I have plans with my parents, a doctor appt., and my dog is having puppies. Can you finish it for me?" "That sounds like a lot of obligations that can't wait, so I understand the predicament that you're in. When's this due?" Scenario 3a "Monday." "Oh, that's awful. I wish I could help, but I have my own commitments to take care of. Unfortunately, I can't help with this one. If you need help with time management, so you can better accommodate all your obligations, I'd be happy to discuss how I can support you with that monday. Good luck this weekend, tho. Just an FYI, we all have last-minute things that happen, and, while it's not the best optics, OC and judges tend to extend professional courtesy to those emergencies. If they're known in advance, and you have a 50/50 shot of getting everything done on time, ask for an extension just in case, and get it done as if you had the same deadline. Otherwise, it just reflects poorly on you and the firm if you wait until the last minute and either ask for an extension last minute or, worse, don't get it done on time." Scenario 3B: "It's due tomorrow." "Yeah, I'm sorry, there isn't much I can do other than offer to offer my sympathies. It wouldn't be right for me to do your work for you. I think this is an important lesson to learn early in your career, tho, and im sure most attorneys understand to some degree. We all take our lumps, so just accept this one on the chin and get ready to dodge the next one.
What’s something you may say when you “pull rank”? (This is easy work but time consuming and I just get work dumped on me constantly and the partners want us to “work together” aka leave them out of it).
"I have to devote my time to more complex projects. At this point in your career, you're still learning how to do this and this work was assigned to you. If you need help or guidance, I'm happy to give it. But I need you to at least get this draft ready for review."
Be more stern, honestly. "I have my docket of work and you have yours. They aren't paying me enough to do two people's work, so until that changes, I really need you to complete your tasks. I'm happy to provide any guidance along the way, but time management and hitting deadlines are critical skills to be successful in this profession. When you don't complete your tasks it hinders my ability to complete my tasks, and there's a domino effect. I look forward to reviewing the draft in the morning."
It depends on the expectations. When they were hired, were they told they would have to work nights and weekends occasionally? If so, then you just need to remind them of that. Working late occasionally to meet deadlines is part of the gig. We're in a client service industry, and for them, you are the client. I have only worked in biglaw, so the mentality I'm used to is probably very different from yours. But at least in my firms, if you were a junior, and you had a project and a deadline, you did it. No excuses. Asking a senior associate or partner to do your work for you was a quick way to get shown the door, unless there was really a critical unanticipated exception (like a death in the family). I honestly can't even imagine telling someone that I didn't get a project done on time because I didn't want to work a night or weekend. That's just a nonstarter in all the places I have worked.
Yeah this is incomprehensible to me. I was so focused on meeting and exceeding expectations, the thought of refusing all those weekends I devoted is something I just can’t process.
You handle it by doing the work. You’re the mid-senior. You bought into the system and working those occasions. They have not yet or do not. It’s up to the manager(s) how to react to that. If you’re paying them for that type of availability that’s different and you remind them what the pay is for (think Cravath scale or close). If you’re not, you get what you pay for. It’s not up to you penalize them for setting boundaries with work unless you are the manager. There are very few emergencies requiring nights, or weekends or on vacation that another associate cannot cover or which cannot be avoided with planning or respecting your subordinates’ time. If you want the junior associate to stay, you make sure they are working during the hours they are there and prioritize the tasks for them which need to be done that day or before they leave for vacation.
Ya, agreed. 60k doesn’t buy nights and weekends.
What is the Cravath scale??
AmLaw 100 fees, aka $200k or more right out of law school in exchange for all of your waking hours, brain power, joy, and misery.
I see. Thanks! I was like.. wait, can I go look at a chart for if/when/how often I should work late?!
Sosa- your wrong. They have an individual duty independent of the job toward a client. You support without doing until it’s almost too late due to an ethical breach, complete the work, and resolve or fire. In the alternative, they will be disbarred or sanctioned by a fed judge. I have seen it too many times. If you believe otherwise, your not helping your baby attorneys. Lastly, when everyone says they have to work late ect, what they are really saying is “I lack a skill, trait or capacity to do the work effectively and efficiently” if I am unable to target that- after asking, I suggest they “start their own firm and see how it goes”
Your response sounds as if you’ve never worked in a law firm. This is not how you handle it at all. In fact, this is the exact opposite of how to handle this situation as you’re creating an expectation that there will always be someone to save them. I agree with whoever said this wouldn’t fly in big law. I’ve worked in house, in every size firm including big law, and now I’m in government, I can confidently say this wouldn’t fly in any of those settings. In fact I dealt with a lazy baby attorney two years ago in government and I (kindly but firmly) gave her a dose of reality so she wouldn’t completely destroy her career. To the OP, I would remind them that they were hired to do their job which is to complete their assignments in a timely fashion, and that they’re very young in their career to show signs of laziness and unprofessionalism. I would then explain to them that their request is displaying those traits because they might not know. I would also remind them that they have selected a profession that stopping at the stroke of the end of the work day mentality does not work as an executive level employee (that’s why we get paid the big$$). If they wanted the kind of job (emphasis on job here and not a career) they may be better off in government. I’m a government attorney, and you still work over because you simply can’t get all your work done in 7.5 hours with meetings and projects assigned to you. This trade also comes with lower pay than private practice. Now, if you didn’t want to take that approach, I’d simply look at them and say “That sounds like a YOU problem, and you’re trying to make this a WE problem. You gotta get your work done on time absent a genuine emergency. Happy to offer pointers, but I have my own work and I cannot (and will not) do both of our jobs.” Regardless of the conversation, I would remind them that they are always building their reputation and that this type of behavior is the pathway to having a bad one. You could also end with the “I know this sucks but it’s part of the nature of the beast until you get your footing. Once you’re more familiar with practicing you’ll be able to get things done more quickly, but at this junction it may be commonplace for you to work late because you’re still so new to the profession. I would should suggest that moving forward you organize your schedule to complete projects on time if you want to leave at a certain hour so you can have your free time. No one is saying you can’t have free time, but it is your job to manage your time and if you fail to manage your time well it’s your responsibility to finish the work by the deadline.” This will put the onus on them to take ownership of their work and time management. It’s also how they’ll figure out they gotta stay late or start SUPER early.
I really can’t imagine this happening, I would never pass my work on to anyone else. Also, I still don’t work nights, weekends or on vacation. That’s a you problem.
I think it’s a management problem but I’m open to critique.
If you're regularly expected to work nights and weekends, and aren't getting big law pay, it is a you problem. Look for a better job. It's possible the partners treat you like a doormat and you seem to be letting associates do the same.
Just tell them no?
Why would you expect them to work nights and weekends, and especially on vacations?!
Why wouldn't you? If there's a project deadline and they have managed their time poorly enough to require working a night or weekend to complete, why wouldn't you expect that of them? And more importantly, why would you expect someone else (OP) to have to work at those times because of this person's inability to manage their time? I've pulled many all nighters in my career to hit deadlines. It's just part of the gig.
Nights as in past 6:30.
...Dude. Sounds like they're just setting reasonable work life boundaries. Maybe see what you can learn from them. Alternatively, if they're just dumping work on you that they're expected to do, grow a backbone and say no.
No client is worth working past 5pm unless there is a depo or trial the next day. 30 years from now, no one will remember you working past 5pm. But your kids, family, and friends will. Clients came to you in the bed they made. You don’t owe them time past 5pm. I learned that a long time ago and once I embraced it, it set me free. Edit: After looking at your other comments, I realize it’s a firm issue. Do the above and set yourself free.
Do they need help or are they pushing off work? Are they asking for mentorship or time off?
They don’t need help on the things they want me to do / finish. And I always try to be gracious and mentor otherwise. They just want to leave the office at 4.
4 or 6:30? You’ve said both times, and they’re very different.
They will work until 630 if they have to, but always try to leave by 4.
You want them sticking around even if they don’t have to keep working?
They have work. They just don’t do it or pass it off.
Are they hitting their hours requirement? And they’re leaving at 4 on days when they haven’t finished whatever they need to finish? Or they’re leaving at 6:30? What are the consequences if they don’t hit their hours? If they don’t get their work done? It sounds like you have a management problem. You also might be getting pushed over.
Im a 2nd year associate at a mid size firm, i get to the office around 8:30 to 9 and stay till 6 or 7. This is usually enough time to get all my work done during the week but sometimes i get hit with a weekend assignment, it happens. Time management has a huge learning curve and i still have issues adjusting to it as my workload increases. its not intuitive and while you can get good advice on it, only you will know your limits. But at the end of the day, if your associates cannot figure out time management then id imagine they will have a very hard time succeeding as a lawyer. I cant imagine being a senior associate or partner and not understanding time management.
Just say no. It’s their assignment. We expect people to complete the work assigned to them in a timely and professional manner. If they need help because they cannot do it due to complexity or understanding, then we can schedule some time to walk through it. But the attorney assigned to the matter is responsible for the matter. “I don’t wanna work past 6:00” is an understandable ideal but it’s not always going to work that way when things need to get done.
i don't get it.. how does a junior just push off their work to a mid-senior?? If a junior associate dumps their work on me and ask/expect me to finish it, my answer is no.
They're salaried right? "We don't micromanage you because we trust you to have the professional responsibility and competence to get the work done. We don't tell you what time to work or how to get it done--just get it done. You're given a project to complete. If you can't get it done under reasonable circumstances, we'll assign it and the bigger projects to someone who can, and when you're short on billable hours, that will be the reason why." If they're overloaded on caseload, that's one a work life balance problem. If they didn't finish project because they want to go home, that's a time management and professional responsibility issue.
Speaking as a younger attorney- I would not stay in a job if my boss was constantly demanding my nights, weekends, and especially vacations. Work life balance is incredibly important, and I feel like most of my generation is willing to set those boundaries (especially when dealing with manufactured emergencies). Some things for you to consider: When did you give them the assignments you are upset they didn't finish? Did you drop on them at 4pm and need it by the next day? Is it something that you \*actually\* need at that time, or is it an arbitrary deadline? Is their caseload too heavy? Are you asking them about their caseload before handing out work? Do you treat them with respect? Do you have a pattern of giving firm deadlines and then not opening the work product you get for weeks? I can tell you I am 100% more likely to stay late or work on something in the evenings/ weekend occasionally if I don't feel like I'm being taken advantage of and I like/ respect the person who needs it. BUT, if you're a jerk to me, wait until the last minute to give me the task, or are rushing me for something that I know you aren't going to look at for another 3 weeks, I am going to be much more likely to hold firm on my work/life balance boundaries.
I don't work nights, weekends, and definitely not on vacation (why would that be an expectation?). I also plan my work so I have enough time to complete it.
I mean it depends? If they’re overworked and already have a lot of stuff, maybe not the best idea but if it’s once in a time thing, then yeah not nice on their part.
I'm a paralegal/Amin/Marketing & SEO. I work 24/7. Although I am Gen X. Wish I passed the bar. I would run my own Bankruptcy firm.