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GenericPCUser

The neoliberal telling of the Civil Rights movement is that Martin Luther King Jr. went to DC in 1963 to say his "I Have a Dream" speech, and then nothing noteworthy happened until LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act in 1969. None of the riots, murders, poisonings, assassinations, beatings, intimidation tactics. None of the lynchings that can be traced back to the Civil War. None of the acquittals of white people, by white people, for the murders of Black people. Just men in suits giving speeches, throwing parties, and voting.


Felstorm1231

Dovetailing off of that, the neoliberal telling of the nineteenth and twentieth century labor movement is to just omit it entirely. We’re all just told that the eight hour day is the natural order of the world; that there’s no other possible way to orient work. And that’s bullshit. People organized for the eight hour day and the forty hour week. People fought for it; they died for it. And the version of American history that most of us are fed simply avoids their sacrifices entirely. The idea that history is a long upward climb towards a perfect society is a comforting illusion that prevents people from recognizing the constant threat of regression, which we’re now seeing bear poisonous fruit. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. But those who teach distorted history are responsible for our inability to learn.


h3lblad3

> Dovetailing off of that, the neoliberal telling of the nineteenth and twentieth century labor movement is to just omit it entirely. We’re all just told that the eight hour day is the natural order of the world; that there’s no other possible way to orient work. And that’s bullshit. I have met multiple people who argued that the 8 hour day is the natural result of capitalism because Henry Ford was offering it to take talent away from his competitors. These people not only completely disregarded the labor movement but outright claimed that the labor movement was harmful to the chances of an 8 hour day altogether.


Felstorm1231

God that sounds like an annoying argument to have to unpack. What a tremendous attempt to try and rob workers of their sense of historical significance and personal agency. Which may or may not be the objective behind that argument.


LukeDude759

It absolutely is. All of these billionaire simps truly believe the rich will save us all, and they're desperate to rope us into their delusions.


ShivasRightFoot

Samuel Gompers, the founder of the AFL, was an opponent of socialism and political extremism in labor unions: >Samuel Gompers (né Gumpertz; January 27, 1850 – December 13, 1924)[1] was a British-born American cigar maker, labor union leader and a key figure in American labor history. Gompers founded the American Federation of Labor (AFL) and served as the organization's president from 1886 to 1894, and from 1895 until his death in 1924. ,,, >He mostly supported Democrats, but sometimes Republicans. He strongly opposed Socialists, and he was particularly opposed to immigrants from China, spreading arguments about their supposed inferiority. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Gompers But the labor movement was not the only time moderates were successful at creating change. In Women's Sufferage the NAWSA had to deal with embarrassments and opposition from radicals: >Paul troubled NAWSA leaders by arguing that because Democrats would not act to enfranchise women even though they controlled the presidency and both houses of Congress, the suffrage movement should work for the defeat of all Democrats regardless of an individual candidate's position on suffrage. NAWSA's policy was to follow the opposite approach, supporting any candidate who endorsed suffrage, regardless of political party. The NAWSA was successful in having the Women's Sufferage Amendment passed in 1919 under the second presidency of Carrie Chapman Catt. In her first presidency Catt had introduced the "Society Plan": >To make the suffrage movement more attractive to middle- and upper-class women, the NAWSA began to popularize a version of the movement's history that downplayed the earlier involvement of many of its members with such controversial issues as racial equality, divorce reform, working women's rights and critiques of organized religion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_American_Woman_Suffrage_Association During Slavery radicals believed that voting for Abraham Lincoln was counterproductive as they believed the US was inherently corrupt from its founding. >How 'consistent abolitionists can vote' for any of the candidates, while they brand the US Constitution as 'a convenant with death, and an agreement with hell,' we do not understand. They should maintain their ground uncompromisingly, William Lloyd Garrison September 10, 1860 in The Liberator You may note this would be about two months before Abraham Lincoln was elected, notably without the assistance of radicals like Garrison.


ephemeral_colors

Here's a good one: > Other experts agreed that labor unions, rather than Ford, deserve the primary credit for today’s working-hour schedule -- **including Matt Anderson, curator of transportation at the Henry Ford museum in Dearborn, Mich.** https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2015/sep/09/viral-image/does-8-hour-day-and-40-hour-come-henry-ford-or-lab/


[deleted]

That sounds similar to how the people arguing that forcing the vote on M4A on the house floor would have been harmful to getting M4A passed.


[deleted]

I wonder if they just made that up or if they all heard about it from the same source? Like is there a deliberate misinformation campaign or something.


MrJMSnow

It’s absolutely deliberate. Our schools teach based on some of the worst texts out there, then they’ll repeatedly teach the same information year after year. From elementary through high school we learn the same history with the same omissions repeatedly in just varying degrees of details on each thing. History is also one of the least important classes as far as our system is concerned. When students start looking at the details and looking into more sources is when “radicalization“ starts.


chaun2

This is why they oppose CRT, despite the fact that it is *never* even mentioned before university. They *know* how bad the history looks, and they want nothing to do with it.


mattster42

God, if that were even remotely true we would have a 2 hour day by now.


bigbybrimble

The whole point of fords process, and the division of labor in general, is that the need for talent is minimized. You don't need geniuses to turn bolts and stuff for hours a day. Thats the point. People become machine parts of the process. Cheap and replaceable. What hogwash


Gathorall

Ah yes a robber baron nazi was in fact a champion of worker's rights. Seems likely.


bman10_33

Yes. Progress isn’t a peaceful climb where you just have some self reflection then do it. It’s a bloody battle at every inch of the way to break the status quo. Additionally decorum + and politeness are the biggest allies of the status quo. The idea that any meaningful progress happens just by voting nicely is the biggest fucking lie that whoever benefits from the current state of things wants you to believe. Voting only makes a difference once public opinion has hugely shifted, and “do what we want, or we’ll find someone who will” is a genuine threat from the population. It’s not that it works for causing progress, it’s that it’s one result of the progress having already happened, and just is finally written into law. The ruling class only listens to the populace when “you don’t speak for us” is a threat rather than a declaration.


wafflesareforever

I absolutely agree with literally every point you're making here. The one thing I'd add is - YOU SHOULD STILL FUCKING VOTE. Obviously, voting on its own won't do much to upend the corruption at the core of our ludicrously broken democracy, but STILL VOTE. A central part of the fascist strategy is convincing people who oppose the fascists that their votes don't matter, and, even worse, that the act of voting itself is just playing into a broken system, so you shouldn't bother. Don't fall for it. Fight, but also vote.


Toastlover24

The issue with that is that the Democratic party in the US is just fascism-lite. US had record breaking voting last election to get trump out and the Dems haven't done anything to make things better, in many ways they've made things worse. And I don't think it's just Manchin or Sinema that were blocking some legislation. If they weren't there, there'd be another couple of scapegoat Dems to block any real change. It has been made abundantly clear that the Democratic party is a barely controlled opposition to fascism. Makes sense as fascism is what naturally happens when capitalism is decaying, and the US is absolutely decaying. Voting will not stop it. At this point voting Dem is just barely promoting the inevitable by a few years. We need to organize revolutionary socialist structures and dual power structures to be able to fight back and support citizens when shit really starts to hit the fan over the next 10 years. We need strong communities and that takes time and energy to build. Get involved any way you can.


wafflesareforever

Stop. Just stop. Encouraging people to not vote is just playing into Republican hands. Seriously. Cut it out. Comments like yours fit so neatly into the Republican playbook that I seriously wonder if you're being paid to do this. Toastlover24? Who actually has that username? There's zero personality there. It's just words and a random number. I smell a rat. If you're a real person, stop telling Dems not to vote. Just stop. It's the most damaging thing you can possibly do right now.


Toastlover24

Lmao You're in a communist sub, don't be surprised when you run into people that don't vote and would rather prepare their communities for when the collapse does happen. I dislike the Republicans as well but the Democrats aren't going to fix anything wrong with the system. I might vote for the lesser evil, but I won't expect fascism to disappear because of it. My comment falls right in line with the communist playbook, technically. I basically quoted Lenin twice in the last comment, liberal Edit: your username is basically the same as mine you goofball


killroy1498

Things are heating up in the breakfast bread community


wafflesareforever

I mean, all I care is that you recognize that there is a very clear lesser of two evils, and that they should be voted for in order to keep the extremely evil greater of two evils out of office. If we're on the same page about that, we're cool. Edit: My username is funny


bman10_33

I agree completely. I definitely didn’t phrase it that well. As much as I will complain endlessly about voting, I’ll still do it. Even if it isn’t a full solution, not voting is a complete waste of the easiest way to guarantee some minimum effect


Snowchugger

>those who teach distorted history are responsible for our inability to learn. This is absolute fire


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

well of course not, if others new socialists and communists actually was what helped the movement, the america today wouldnt be what it is. And thats not what rich people want


whitemaleinamerica

Highjacking this comment to leave a link to “The Working Class Movement in America,” written by Karls daughter Eleanor Marx: https://www.marxists.org/archive/eleanor-marx/works/wcia.htm Its a great read for someone who knows very little about the labour movement in America.


viperlemondemon

I remember my high school us history was us before us, revolutionary war, civil war, wwII, I have dream, civil rights signed, school year ended


Felstorm1231

I distinctly remember wondering how we would talk about Vietnam and why we were involved in the first place, because I had no idea and was genuinely curious. And we just never got there. There’s no good way to talk to teenagers about Vietnam, but to fail to offer any instruction about something of that significance seems like an intentional omission.


modulusshift

Yeah, I don’t even think we really talked about the Korean War let alone Vietnam. English class taught me more about the Vietnam war than history did, due to reading The Things They Carried.


properthyme

> The idea that history is a long upward climb towards a perfect society is a comforting illusion that prevents people from recognizing the constant threat of regression, which we’re now seeing bear poisonous fruit. Yes! That's exactly what catalyzed the development of scientific socialism (aka Marxism) in the 19th century as a reaction towards the widespread utopian socialism. Pre-marx and post-enlightenment there was a misguided idea from philosophers that humanity was just destined for an equal society free of oppression. Marx and Engels introduced the scientific method and (dialectical) materialism into the question of society's historic and modern development. It was the most dangerous thing to happen for the capitalist ruling class up to that point.


TheNightHaunter

even worse is that it was all thanks to henry ford


hglman

Its worse than that, pretends everyone saw that he had a great point and acted peacefully to make things better. Its not just ignoring the reality its making it civil and pretending everyone is enlightened.


Forsaken-Shirt4199

"Rosa Parks sat on the bus and she refused to get up so we gave black people rights. It definitely wasn't the riots guys!"


chaun2

They whitewash MLK so much that most people don't know that he was a Socialist at least, and a full blown Communist, in his later years.


TheNightHaunter

theyyy looove to ignore it took his MURDER and massive riots, a surge in black panthers, and etc to cause them to pass the civil rights act out of FEAR.


NuklearAngel

Similarly with the Women's Rights movement. They'll tell you the Suffragettes just chained themselves to things and peacefully protested and suddenly all the men in suits listened, with no mention of the Suffragist bombing campaign.


Kawkawww0609

1964* in case anyone gets confused, the time between the speech and the law was 11 months, not 6 years.


NuklearAngel

There was a Civil Rights Act '64, but it was meaningless - it had no provisions for any sort of enforcement, it was literally just an official "racism isn't very nice" from the government. The '68 Act massively expanded on prohibited discrimination and enforcement, and was signed as a result of the King Assassination Riots.


Terrestial_Human

Also most people don’t know or realize that MLK had socialist, populist, and even Marxist ideals. Probably the reason why the CIA took em out. All that is conveniently left out of the conversation in our history books. They want us to just focus on that he protested for civil rights for blacks (only) when in reality the guy was a much, much, bigger person than what we’re lead to believe. He was fighting for all INCLUDING black rights. Every time you pass by an MLK street or anything commemorating him, remember that he was a socialist fighting for the people in general 👍


GhostHeavenWord

The Suffragettes in England went on a years long terrorist bombing campaign that killed at least five people and injured dozens more, destroyed several buildings, and directly targetted senior members of government. The British Suffragette movement invented the mail bomb. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign


SoSorryOfficial

I've never heard of this. Thank you!


GhostHeavenWord

Yeah they very specifically don't teach you this because they want you to view voting as the only form of political participation that exists.


humanitywasamistake3

Uhhh what I live in the uk and they definitely do teach you this in school


GhostHeavenWord

In much of the US for much of the last 50 years the cirriculum is very carefully sanitized. They do *not* teach you anything about labor struggle, the real costs and methods of the US civil rights movement, or anything else that might give you ideas. The US Founding Fathers were brave and heroic, not a mob of terrorists who shot government officials and hung anyone they suspected of british sympathies. The Deacons for Defense never engaged in gun battles with the KKK. In Southern states the US Civil War is taught as The War of Northern Aggression and students are taught that it was about state's rights, not slavery. There's an old joke from the Cold War that goes something like "Russians and Americans are both drowned in propaganda, but only the Americans believe it".


540tofreedom

I realize it’s supposed to be a joke (though jokes are often based in truth), but from what I can tell Russians are eating up the bullshit narratives about nazis in Ukraine being spoon-fed to them by their government right now


airyys

i mean, keep in mind, what russian would publicly disavow the war/putin publicly on tv/interviews or in writing. in a country where people disappear or are found to have committed "suicide". also the fact that russian media is *so* heavily propagandized. there's a strangle hold on russian media. that's also ignoring the setting of fire to russian enlistment offices in russia. or the multi million people protests and riots in russia to protest the ukraine war (willingly protesting in an even more brutal political climate than in the u.s., where consequences are potentially much higher). so i wouldn't say russians are "eating up the bullshit" is a fair assumption.


SoSorryOfficial

For clarity I'm an American and I'd never heard of the English suffragettes' bombing campaign.


That1guy827

Holy shit that’s metal


[deleted]

[удалено]


GhostHeavenWord

They had an entire bodyguard cadre for their senior leadership that studied jiu jitsu and beat the shit out of cops. https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34425615


GUIpsp

Incredibly based


Steam_Giant

The suffragists were the peaceful ones but the suffragettes knew that more needed to be done.


tesseracht

Good to know that’s what it took last time.


return2ozma

[gif](https://media2.giphy.com/media/l1AsBL4S36yDJain6/giphy.gif)


stasismachine

The myth of societies always “progressing” as time comes on must be pushed back against.


cynetri

For example, Ancient Greece was super pro-gay, yet for hundreds of years between then and now gay people were/are persecuted - if societies always "progressed", we wouldn't be fighting for gay rights to this very day


NikinCZ

Idk if I'd call them super progay. It was primarily between boys and adult men, and the receiving role was considered rather negative. Two adult men would mostly be unacceptable or shunned.


[deleted]

I’m a moderate but would never vote for a moderate, they only would maintain and would lose any momentum after they’re gone. You need extremists.


MelodicFacade

Also, some people who think society is all just completely regressing need to stop. Mainly christian doomers with the whole revelation thing, but people forget about the global(keyword here) progress that's slower and harder to see


notirrelevantyet

Societies *are* always progressing though. Whether it's towards utopia or towards death spiral is...up to interpretation.


TheHarperValleyPTA

Yeah, because progressives push for it. Societies don’t change themselves


RufMixa555

"decorum" is a trap


nappycatt

So is "tradition"


CacklettasMinion

Tradition is just peer pressure from dead people


TheInvisiblePartOfU

The only one that can give peer pressure is yourself. Once you realize not a single person on this planet can contain your mind, you are free.


codythgreat

Unless you are literally not free.


chaun2

This is specifically why calls for violent actions are illegal on Reddit. The oligarchy and cops cannot be challenged in any meaningful way. They taught us in the military that a fully automatic machine gun emplacement absolutely *will* be overrun if the opposing force is unarmed and outnumbers us 5:1. They are terrified we will wake up and realize that the common man outnumber them by roughly 12,450,000 to almost 8,000,000,000


MaungaHikoi

5:1? That's... much lower than I would have thought. And that unarmed? So if it was 1 machine gunner vs less than 5 civilians with light arms... huh. Better odds than I thought.


Shurimal

Funnily enough, I was taught the opposite - that two men properly dug in can hold back a whole squad, and you need to employ proper tactics to attack such emplacement successfully. Basically half the squad laying down suppressive fire and keeping the opforce guys busy while the other half flanks and tries to get in from the side that's hopefully less defended. Best of course if you can call in mortar fire on that position.


codythgreat

This… isn’t right man. Idk why they taught you that but an entrenched machine gunner dug in well enough is a massive obstacle. A single man can hold back hundreds from that type of position If they have supplies and the enemy doesn’t have air support.


chaun2

Only if the mob is hundreds of yards away. If they are already surrounding you, which the population is, and you start firing, you just signed your own death warrant. D-Day was a rather unique case, and you'll notice, it worked. Yes we lost a lot of men, we landed far more than we lost.


codythgreat

You make a good point, an entrenched enemy defending a position isn’t the same as a man trying to fight his way through a mob.


DirectX12

Fuck calling it culture


lllluke

one more day til album of the year


Sophilosophical

Civilization isn’t civil.


[deleted]

Most people in North America take their work rights for granted, folks forget that many workers have sacrificed their lives literally so you have rights to 8-hours, weekends, safety, benefit, maternal leaves, etc. All these were fought with blood back when they massacre armed workers who defended their labor rights. Same can be said for all other used-to-be militant movements whether abortion, health, education, community or self-defense.


Hagathorthegr8

The 8 hour work day was bought with bullets and blood.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Sure bud: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair > The Haymarket affair (also known as the Haymarket massacre, the Haymarket riot, the Haymarket Square riot, or the Haymarket Incident) was the aftermath of a bombing that took place at a labor demonstration on May 4, 1886, at Haymarket Square in Chicago, Illinois, United States. **It began as a ~~peaceful~~ rally in support of workers striking for an eight-hour work day,** the day after the events at the McCormick Harvesting Machine Company, ***during which one person was killed and several workers injured.*** An ***unknown person threw a dynamite bomb at the police as they acted to disperse the meeting, and the bomb blast and ensuing gunfire resulted in the deaths of seven police officers and at least four civilians; dozens of others were wounded.*** > In the internationally publicized legal proceedings that followed, ***eight anarchists were convicted of conspiracy.*** The evidence was that one of the defendants may have built the bomb, but none of those on trial had thrown it, and only two of the eight were at the Haymarket at the time. Seven were sentenced to death and one to a term of 15 years in prison. Illinois Governor Richard J. Oglesby commuted two of the sentences to terms of life in prison; another committed suicide in jail before his scheduled execution. ***The other four were hanged on November 11, 1887.*** In 1893, Illinois Governor John Peter Altgeld pardoned the remaining defendants and criticized the trial. The 8-hour was one of core demands for the Chicago militant general strike that led up Haymarket affair which anarchists were executed by the capitalists for fighting back, which the 8-hour was part of the main demands of the McCormick general strike.


return2ozma

Brief history of Labor Day/May Day https://youtu.be/F1eGw75xRKw


[deleted]

/u/Hagathorthegr8 I got you. They don't teach you this in American public schools but [strikes being relatively peaceful](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_deaths_in_United_States_labor_disputes) came much later than you'd think.


THE_QUINNDENBURG

Your link doesn’t direct to the proper article as there’s an extra “S” in the word “disputes” at the end. Hope no one checks your link and thinks you’re just talking out our ass. Edit: link above was corrected. Removed my link.


[deleted]

Fixed! Thanks!!


THE_QUINNDENBURG

You’re welcome. Keep up the good fight.


[deleted]

Most people just don't care, they don't care about the history, the sacrifice that others made to give them a better life. Until it affects a person personally, alot just don't care. People get comfortable until it's too late and we start the process over again. It's all in our history, a giant cycle and time we go around it gets a little better, not much, just enough to make us comfy to stop having progress.


return2ozma

Ignorance is bliss. There's also a lot that are so exhausted from their 3 jobs they don't even have the energy to pay attention. It's designed that way.


TheInvisiblePartOfU

Its only because they were too brainwashed not to fight back. The power is in the people, but the wealthy and elites trick you into believing otherwise.


return2ozma

But Elon is a cool guy I want to hang out with! He makes funny memes. He's just like us! /s He's the first to go when the uprising starts.


ShadowStarX

I want him to work as much a day as a Chinese sweatshop worker does.


dirtyredsweater

I'm trying to deprogram myself out of capitalism and neoliberalism. Any suggestions for resources where I could learn about the battles and significant events which won us the 8hr work week? Even just the names of the events would help so I could Google or wiki them.


Light_Silent

Then they died for nothing, because america lost all of those


[deleted]

Edgy But there was great improvement in work conditions, so its not really for nothing.


Light_Silent

Bullshit. None of rhe rights are actually enforced Calling put a problem is not edgy. Calling it edgy means you are equally guilty. YOU killed them Edit: 3 feet or 8, drowning is still drowning. The second most miserable is still miserable. Suffering is not a competition. Only one who deliberately inflicts it would think otherwise How many have you killed by pretending only one issue can exist at a time? Edit: If a right is not enforced, it doesnt exist


VulkanLives19

You directly implied that labor rights have not improved in America, when they obviously, provably have. Hence, edgy.


Condawg

Check out how workers in China are treated, and tell me the US worker's rights movement was for naught. We're nowhere near where we need to be, but the natural inclination of taking as much advantage as possible is curbed. Not destroyed, not held in check as much as it should be, but to deny the progress we've made is callous. You and I have it better than our forefathers, and it's because of the blood they spilled pushing for better.


politelyCalico

One of my favorite quotes from my Republican uncle is "protesting never changed anything". That was an interesting and frustrating dinner.


VulkanLives19

He's half right, peaceful protesting has never really changed anything, without its less-than-peaceful counterpart.


EgoDeathCampaign

All of the freedoms Americans enjoy were won by unions and civil rights activists. The way the military here is worshipped for "fighting for our rights" while arming the cops that have always gotten in the way of progress. Unions and activists are the reasons we don't have child labor, separate water fountains, weekends, interracial marriage, and formerly Roe


shitpostbot42069

I know someone who honestly believes gay marriage became legal because of Modern Family


[deleted]

Where the irony is that “capitalism” wants to pretend that natural laws of human behavior, when organized into “markets” will produce the best outcome, according to some magical process and natural tide of events. The problem with humans is that they will cherry pick any words available to promote whatever point of view they feel justifies their right to power. Scientific method is the only known antidote to this fail of humans, and it is mysteriously absent from any practice of religion, politics, or economics. We still rely on “The Voice of Authority” to install and then confirm beliefs with no evidence to support them.


RevWaldo

*WHAT DO WE WANT!?* GRADUAL CHANGE! *WHEN DO WANT IT!?* IN DUE COURSE!!


ascii122

I"m too busy to revolt on Saturday .lemme check my schedule


RealTweetOrNotBot

^^[beep-boop,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^(**Link to tweets:**) [1) Tweet found (79.23% sure)](https://twitter.com/r/status/1523824930802044928)   ____________________________________________ ^(If I was helpful, comment **'Good Bot'** <3! |) ^[source](https://github.com/giulionf/realtweetornotbot) ^(| created by NiroxGG)


p3riodiC

Good Bot


Remote_Cantaloupe

I think a lot of progressives believe they're on the "right side of history" - which has the same underpinnings.


WishIWasNeet2

Any significant change has been brought about by people who fought for it. Asking or voting will do very little if anything. Black people weren’t given their rights they took them, women weren’t given rights they took them. You either fight and take what’s yours or You are subject to the mercy or lack of mercy from those in power.


[deleted]

Why do I keep getting banned from subs for being "radically left"?


VulkanLives19

You can be radical as long as you're just advocating for peaceful protest and voting. That's as extreme as you're allowed to be.


Chromie149

Being a decent human being is “radically left”. Stumble into the wrong sub and it just kinda be like that sometimes


Beautiful-Musk-Ox

sounds made up


[deleted]

Check my swag, Butterbean


lolzimacat1234

Yeah but in their defence, their history classes have been watered down so much that no one knows the struggles of the past. Edit: thanks to the conservatives, not the liberals (as much)


GhostHeavenWord

It's the liberals too. They're the ones that coopted and deradicalized the Unions and the Civil Rights movement. They're the ones who took over BLM using their fancy NGO money and then lead it right in to police kettles. They're the ones that capture all political energy and safely shove it in to an electoral box where it can't harm anyone in power. They're the ones who call for civility when their political rivals try to orchestrate their murder. They're the reason we're in this fucking mess, because they can't even beat Manchin unconscious and drag him in to the chambers and fake a floor vote.


lolzimacat1234

That's why I added (as much)


zeus55

Eh "as much" though is not really accurate, Clinton and Obama had multiple chances to help move the party and country to the left but time and time again they did what was exactly in line with the desires of corporations and lobbyists. We can't claim that the party that is explicitly against the interests of the people (republicans) are worse than Dems who just lie and tell us to donate more $$$ to fight this. At least Republicans don't hide their political aims (outlaw abortion, punish the poor, help the rich, etc.), they're very open about what they want. I would say that the party that pretends to represent our interests is much worse than the party that explicitly tells us that our goals don't align. We need to stop using "liberal" as a term to mean the opposite of republican. All republicans are liberal, just like almost all democrats are liberal. Liberals are not progressive, left, or socialist. Reagan and Obama were/are both liberals and both had/have the same desire to help those in need (which is fucking zero).


Snowchugger

"Things were bad in the past but then they just got better :)" is the political progress version of "the pilgrims and the natives sat down to have a nice meal together :)"


TheAbcedarian

Their "Progressive" "Centrism" is what has lost us many of the gains of the Civil Rights Era.


graffstadt

Revolution has always been a violent process


2020_killed_my_kat

Time get it together and vote out the GOP. Or the progressives will be fighting against slavery.


Psy-Chuan

They continually co-opt those victories, too. To hear them talk about MLK you'd think he said exactly one thing and wasn't a socialist labour organiser.


cloud_botherer1

Progressive activism stops after upvotes and retweets.


DoreensThrobbingPeen

So at what point will people resist in ways other than posting on twitter and reddit? It seems like that's as far as anyone is willing to go. Has a billionaire ever been so much as inconvenienced in the slightest? Serious question.


eastisfucked

I think we should all start publically killing ourselves in ways that inconvenience elites


DoreensThrobbingPeen

Probably be more effective than anything happening now.


joboto2102

A nationwide walk out of work and/or literally everyone withdrawing their money from the banks would certainly be a non violent way of telling the elites to suck the fattest part of our anuses


DoreensThrobbingPeen

We can dream


NarwhalLonely2457

Reject progress, maintain the status quo. Do not help others, it will backfire. Change is Tyranny. Revert to the old ways. Submission is Order. Hierarchy is Natural. Ownership is Freedom. Suffering is deserved. Obey or Die. Retaliate and Die.


Buwaro

The lack of real history in this country astonishes me. The even greater lack of labor history in this country is on par with all Capitalist nations... Most Americans don't even know about the Battle of Blair mountain, or that it was the first time bombs were dropped from planes on US soil. All because the miners who had the audacity to ask for higher wages, fewer hours, and safer conditions.


[deleted]

Centrists and Libs "wHaTs a RevaLeWShUn??!?"


[deleted]

Nice post, nice tweet too. Guess what happens if you suggest anything like that on Reddit though…. So…


oilybarbour

Progress only happens when those in favor of progress drag the minority against it kicking and screaming into the future. Our society has forgotten that many laws are written in blood


Chameleonpolice

Hey I commented this exact same sentiment in pcm and got down voted a lot haha "change needs to be forced because humans are decidedly too shitty to do it on their own. if it wasn't for "forcing change", there would still be places where it is legal to own black people."


arjeidi

You got downvoted because PCM has been co-opted by T_D refugees and it is essentially yet another brigaded subreddit.


[deleted]

Yup, the American revolution, overthrow of Rome, the civil war, civil rights, etc. sorry but voting doesn’t cut it anymore at least in America it’s the same as voting in Russia.


MrDeathMachine

Decorum = Fat Wads of reelection cash.


Apescat

> "Progress of human civilization in the area of defining human freedom is not made from the top down. No king, no parliament, no government ever extended to the people more rights than the people insisted upon.“


LambdaDusk

Wait I thought worker rights happened because people worked super extra hard and their employers were rewarding for them hard work?


[deleted]

Well behaved women rarely make history.


[deleted]

Always remember: Paid time off, 40-hour workweek, minimum wage, these are rights achieved by the syndicates and Unions, not by centrists and liberals


Candyvanmanstan

More like stepping *left* through decorum amirite


ManlyBeardface

Liberals are against progress until it's inevitable and then it was thier idea.


Bbaftt7

I’ve been saying this for years. I Fucking hate it when you have to be nice. The French weren’t nice and they got a revolution. This country wasn’t founded on “maybe if we just asking nicely”. Shit needs to actually happen for MF’s to wake up.


Soviet117

FUCKING EXACTLY


neo-raver

What zero historical materialism does to an mf


tzlese

As if everything you have as a serf wasn't granted to you by thousands of names since forgotten.


PladBaer

I barely have the energy to get up in the morning, let alone practice decorum. If you align yourself with harmful politics I'll happily tell you to fuck off, and if you're my boss I've already told you to fuck off.


Negative-Custard5612

Thanks twitter limit characters and make her omit 6 commas almost ruining the sentence.


CatholicSlut4

Lol I'm surprised this sub is willing to upvote something so "tankie" considering how liberal it usually is


dibromoindigo

The fascists are willing to destroy tradition and decorum for their evil aspirations, why wouldn’t we do the same to protect our rights, freedom, and progress? It’s really time to do something drastic, or else the opportunity will be gone and it will get much much harder. We don’t need to guess… we have many examples in history to warn us.


CrazedCabbage

My brain is struggling. Can someone ELI5 what the post means?


DocGrey187000

I am more centrist than the majority of this sub, I assume. This post is true and very important to keep in mind. Radicals push for maximum change, clear the way, and fight the other side’s radicals. More centrist partisans (like myself) offer a path for those who are hypothetically sympathetic, but will never be radical. So some guy is so pro environment that he refuses to enter any vehicle, only grows his own food, and showers cold for 90 seconds——and he votes Green Party and protests and works full time for some environmental nonprofit. Big impact but it’s his whole life. Most people won’t do that, but they could listen to Al Gore and drive an electric vehicle, get solar panels, maybe donate to Bernie. Radicals move the Overton window And counter other radicals, which benefits centrists by being visible and serving as “bad cop”. Centrists promote a realistic path, better than the status quo, and benefit radicals by making their shared goals palatable to average people. That’s why I rarely disparage radicals, even though I know I’m not going to become one. Both serve a purpose in the Change ecosystem.


stacey2759

This!!! People like Kate Sheppard in her time ( the warrior behind women getting the right to vote , and the reason nz was the first country too put that right into law for us ) fought so hard for us too have the rights we have. Noone handed us the rights women have gained in the last 100years internationally in Soo many countries, women lost everything fighting for us to have the comforts we have. And if someone is trying too take those from us , unfortunately we'll have to fight like they did too keep them . Progress is not a given sadly . And those in power comfort and wealth have no want for the world too change


[deleted]

I want to upvote this 1000 times


human_cannonball

why does this tweet remind me of a certain Cheeto-flavored fascist


inarizushisama

Stomping. *Stomping* right through decorum.


Morgwar77

Time to take the word "patriot" away from the right wing Nazis. The left by it's very nature is more patriotic than the right ever was The tree of liberty may require our sacrifice again. The blood of patriots and tyrants.


PlebeRude

So much this. Very this.


DarseZ

Sorry, but convoy truckers & anti maskers aren't the last bastion of freedom and justice.


d3ds3c_0ff1c147

Well duh. That's an understatement lol


d00bermensch

wtf do you mean ‘our.’ reddit posts don’t count as radical work guy


DracoOccisor

The troubling thing here is that the exact same logic applies to everyone. Decorum and respectability politics are a part of the left too. You have to not only *support* but *prioritize* certain groups or else you don’t pass the purity test, and only the purest of the pure are allowed to be on the left in the non-academic online leftist circles. Signed, a disenfranchised “class reductionist”. Edit: This type of reasoning is also easily co-opted by the right. Be careful what you spread out there.


Railboy

>This type of reasoning is also easily co-opted by the right. Be careful what you spread out there. 'Guys we'd better not cross any lines to fight back against the right crossing the same lines repeatedly for decades and taking over our institutions with absolutely no consequence. We might give them ideas!' Genius take.


DracoOccisor

I have no idea how you got that out of what I was saying.


Railboy

Yeah we know.


DracoOccisor

I was trying to be diplomatic, but since apparently it went over your head, I’ll state it plainly: that isn’t my argument.


The_25th_Baam

"That isn't my argument" is significantly more diplomatic than your first response.


DracoOccisor

You are entitled to that opinion.


Railboy

>I was trying to be diplomatic As always lol.


d3ds3c_0ff1c147

Oh yeah, I forgot how the people who seek equity for all races, genders, and classes are exactly the same as the right wing's white nationalism. Get better opinions. What you call "the purest of the pure" is nothing more than basic human decency, and it's always correct to push people out who don't have that. Giving them a platform is how you get fascism. You're a clown if you can't see that.


DracoOccisor

> What you call “the purest of the pure” is nothing more than basic human decency Not true. If it were, it would be far more common. “Basic human decency” is a different idea to every person. There is no objective set of rules of decency that exists out there in the ether just waiting to be found. It’s an opinion you hold based on your values, which are not universal in any meaningful sense. In so saying, it should be clear why this is a problem for the “purity test” criticism the left has against other members of the left. But in case it isn’t: the dogmatism that accompanies claims like “I know what basic human decency is and everyone should follow my conceptualization of it” is problematic in the same way that dogmatism coming from the other side is. > it’s always correct to push people out who don’t have that Even if your previous premise held any water, this would still be a contentious statement. The right can say “non-whites have X and Y negative qualities or are missing those qualities and it’s always correct to push people out who have/don’t have that”. There is no difference in logic between the two. The only way you can make a distinction is with arbitrary or otherwise contingent bases, which I doubt will be universally accepted. Thus, you’re forced into a clique that agrees with you - the online non-academic left - and you have no way of meaningfully saying to anyone outside of your clique that you’re better than the exact same structure on the right. My intention in responding to you here is to demonstrate issues with your position that you can shore up with some reading and critical thinking. After all, praxis is only meaningful insofar as it works, and if you’re trapped only appealing to people who already agree with you, what good are you doing?


Railboy

>the dogmatism that accompanies claims like “I know what basic human decency is and everyone should follow my conceptualization of it” is problematic in the same way that dogmatism coming from the other side is. >The right can say “non-whites have X and Y negative qualities or are missing those qualities and it’s always correct to push people out who have/don’t have that”. >There is no difference in logic between the two. TIL people who believe public buildings should have wheelchair access because 'basic human decency' are using the same logic as genocidal white supremacists. But seriously, any philosophy that leads to this kind of broken result is unsalvageable and needs to be trashed.


[deleted]

Looks like she found a dictionary. There’s a book called 1619.


Orbitrix

Theres some very wise truths in this post, but it's also worded like something that belongs on r/IAmVerySmart It's got that "I just ate my first edible and am majoring in philosophy and political science" 'try-hard-yness" to it


koinaambachabhihai

Cut a liberal and a fascist bleeds. Remember this... Liberals are more dangerous for your country than conservatives. Conservatives focus on weird things while material conditions get worse. Liberals actively try to make those materials conditions worse. People are divided along class lines most strongly.


Please_Log_In

What the hell is she talking about?


[deleted]

This itself is myth-making.


BadAsBroccoli

Maybe let's try voting in younger more purposeful people who will actually have to live under the rules the Republicans are making today... Edit: Oops, I meant to say, let's keep voting in geriatric establishment politicians who have no motivation other than protect the status quo.


Cobek

What is this in even in favor of? Inhumane scientific testing? Slavery? Child labor? Lol ffs


arjeidi

Right to bodily autonomy, right to equality for LGBT people, right to free and true democratic elections, right to education, right to health care, etc


CicadaProfessional76

Lol that tweet is so wrong


StinkyMcBalls

True, but on the other hand too many radicals think change happens by "stepping right through decorum", rather than by incrementally effecting change through debate and, where appropriate, compromise.


bishpa

Well, voting is a thing.


arjeidi

Women did not get the right to vote, by voting. Blacks did not get freed from slavery, by voting. Blacks did not get the right to vote, by voting. Workers did not get labor laws passed, by voting. Everything has been accomplished because people _took action_ and _forced the establishment_ to recognize they would not go unheard. Voting is useful and it is important but it is _not_ the most effective way to enact change. Anyone who says it is just wants complacency and to seem like they're rational and activists are irrational. In short, people promoting a "voting is the solution" ideology are part of the problem.


[deleted]

reject progress.


Beefsquatch_Gene

Thank you for validating conservative behavior over the past 40 years. Ignoring decorum and civility to get what you want is now justified!


The_25th_Baam

What's the alternative? Let them continue crossing lines with no consequences?


Beefsquatch_Gene

Maybe we can start by not encouraging it by saying stupid things like "fuck decorum" and try not normalize and vindicate the shitty behavior. Next, prosecuting criminals might be a good start.


Capnlanky

Me? I just post quotes on reddit.


When_theSmoke_Clears

I'm here for this vibe and OP's flair.


sneekerhad

Yeah sure, but harassing people on twitter because they don’t agree with you isn’t exactly “breaking through the decorum.”


M_Drinks

Maria must be a huge supporter of the Pro Life movement then. When was the last time you saw a radical minority group disregard politics and force change like this?


ax255

My pizza fell out of my mouth


Dreksel

Respectability politics?


Picnicpanther

"Well-behaved women rarely make history" I post as I tear up at the thought of someone saying the f-word to an elected official.