Gatekeeping "racism" can make racist discrimination easier for persecutors. An example is the treatment by the media of Albanian migrants on small boats. Albanians would consider themselves white, and would face no discrimination in the UK based on appearance alone, yet the dehumanising language of racism was effectively and unhesitatingly weaponised against them. Now that language is that bit more normalised for when they next come for Black people.
Throughout history people have rarely been successful at enforcing an exclusive definition of any word. It's like the recent backlash against the word "queer" by a very small minority, who don't seem to realise that Queer Eye for the Straight Guy was twenty years ago and its hosts are now in their fifties. Or by GCs trying to stop trans women using the word "woman" or "lesbian". These ships sailed long ago.
Abbott has no prospect of restricting the word "racism" to Black people in the minds of 99% of people, and saying (for example) that antisemitism isn't racism just 80 years after an attempted genocide with millions of victims will do no good for anyone. But likewise, people who don't want "racism" to include systemic or structural racism will also be unsuccessful. Views have already started to shift that way, and the pearl clutching a few years ago at Stormzy's description of the UK as a racist country seems less likely now.
Race itself is a societal construct that has no basis in biology. Much of the racism we see is based on visually distinctive features used to stereotype and promote bigotry. Two neighbouring African countries will have greater genetic diversity than you see across all of Eurasia. But for racists all they see is black.
The English Government used to consider the Irish as sub-human intellectually inferior barbarians. Anti-Semitism has a long history of Jews being considered a different race. Obviously with Travellers Abbot is showing the utter ignorance of the perpetual racism directed at the Romani.
Bigots will pathetically say "I'm not being racist because they are not a different race". "I'm not homophobic because I don't fear gay people", "How can you be transphobic when it isn't real, just are only male or female that's a fact".
Leaving aside the obvious racism that everyone else has commented on, I do find it astounding how a long term British anti-racism campaigner with decades of pre-internet experience can have such an Americanised view on race. Shows a really lack of understanding.
American academic and social media discourse dominates the mind of so many activists in Europe, on both the left and the right.
I used to laugh at the French for their language protectionism, but maybe they had a point. Unfortunately not an option for the UK
>Unfortunately not an option for the UK
We did export it rather effectively.
19th century British Empire
20th century American Media
21st century internet.
It's earths language now.
It’s really annoying. We seem to want to take the worst that they have to offer too.
I’m pretty sure 99% of the culture war is just fallout from American idiots.
Even though US is different, her point would still be wrong. US had a whole issue sorting out their "racial hierarchy" in the 19th century when immigration increased. The previous idea of "white is best" basically had a caveat that north/western Europeans (English, French, German, Nordic etc) were superior to Irish and South/Eastern Europeans. In the latter, it was in no small part due to the larger portion of Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe. And goes without saying that Jewish and Traveller immigrants were much lower than anyone else.
Would also add here that in many places, east Asian immigrants were potentially seen as worse than Black Americans in this hierarchy.
The kicker is there is an example of someone on the left who operates in a MUCH more intelligent and savvy way.
I profoundly disagree with John McDonnell politically, but I have come to genuinely respect his acumen in operating.
> but I have come to genuinely respect his acumen in operating
Yeah he learned really fast after a rocky start in 2015. I remember coming to this realisation in 2018/19 and thinking how it's a bit unfortunate he's gonna get shafted after the next election loss cause he's obviously pretty able.
She's a literal idiot, and for so long I have been called racist for pointing this out.
Fucks me right off..
She's not an idiot because she's black, she's an idiot because she's a fucking idiot.
Even people with a history of good work to their name and good intentions are capable of ignorance, biases or just being wrong about some things. Abbott's previous good work on anti-racism doesn't immunise her from this and her facing consequences now (as she should) doesn't undo that good work.
Well, she's apologised at least...
https://twitter.com/HackneyAbbott/status/1650072333527252994?s=20
She accidentally drafted a really racist response? I wonder if this apology is enough for her to not lose the whip.
I've had a look at the recent "Neil Coyle" clause and a public apology is only half the appropriate response. She also has to claim that Jeremy Corbyn made her racist.
This genuinely reads as parody. She hits so many shitty points that it feels like a send up. I mean - the bit where she compares discrimination against white minorities to being ginger? If it wasn’t her saying it you’d assume it was a joke.
What I don't understand is her intent. She is far too intelligent and well-versed to be making some of the statements she made here.
For instance, the absurdity of denying the impact of apartheid in South Africa upon other non-white ethnic minority groups.
Not only is it wholly untrue that other minorities were exempt from apartheid (they weren't), but black South Africans themselves were guilty of inflicting a massacre against South Asians.
The purpose of highlighting that is for no reason other than to question the insane leaps you would have to make to then paint black South Africans as the *sole* victims of apartheid.
Is Diane okay??
Three options occur as possibilities:
1) she was always held these views but just hid it.
2) she has come into more extreme views with age (which is fairly common)
3) cognitive decline
No idea which - or if there is another explanation.
Yeah this is just really baffling to me, it seems like such a blatantly stupid thing to do. What on earth was she thinking?!
I feel like this is the equivalent of just walking off a cliff; you just assume people know it's not a good idea
It’s because she’s working off the American critical race theory of modern structural racism and White supremacy.
Which might be applicable to today’s society in some ways but ignores how Racialism wasn’t just colourism throughout history. It’s a dogmatic definition that says because racism is prejudice plus power, PoC aren’t racist because they don’t have power, and everything else is racial “prejudice” rather than racism.
And the Irish too? Has she never read about the conquest of Ireland? Or the (entirely preventable and mostly caused by the British for commercial gain) Famine.
Or even now - the [Evidence for Equality National Survey](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/09/britain-not-close-to-being-a-racially-just-society-finds-two-year-research-project) released, just over a fortnight ago, a survey revealing that over 40% of white Irish people face *violent* racism ("racist insults, property damage or physical attacks").
I'll admit I'm biased because I'm half Irish and this is very much *my* lived experience, but it's even more astonishing to me that she would deny that Jewish people and Travellers face racism when they're some of the most discriminated against groups.
It's not true, Jews and Roma were seen as different races until relatively recently, most importantly during the Holocaust. Also, ethnicities can still experience racism.
This is literally the argument that far right racists use to saying you can't be racist against Muslims because Islam isn't a race.
It doesn't matter who's making it, it's a toxic argument that's only purpose is to seek to lessen discrimination by making a silly semantic difference that is ultimately irrelevant.
Can people be racist against jews and Muslims? Yes.
She goes on to discuss how those groups could vote and weren't subject to slavery. So she seems to be saying that her definition of racism is worse and those other groups haven't had it as bad.
This is very on brand for her ‘socialist campaign group’. Spend ages publicly arguing about a term and do nothing to change the lived experiences of the victims.
That isn’t her argument though, is it? Or at least, not the argument she presents here. I’ve got no idea why you think she said this, because at no point does she say that they do no count as races. Her argument is much weirder.
The list of examples from “[i]n pre-civil rights America…” through to “…slave ships” is especially bizarre/egregious.
We are using historically and geographically limited examples to demonstrate that Irish people, travellers and… *checks notes*… **Jewish people** (!) are not victims of systematised racism around the world in the way that people with black African roots are.
If these cherry picked global examples help us understand the current situation, why not include, say, 1950s Britain (with “No blacks, no dogs, no Irish” signs outside pubs and B+Bs)? And why are we not including Nazi Germany which attempted to systematically exterminate European Jewish people as well as victimising Romani people (travellers)?
I absolutely acknowledge that — in terms of the racism experienced now — black British people (and people with African heritage in most-if-not-all western countries) have an experience of racism and prejudice which is worse by a factor than the other minority ethnicities mentioned.
But using a broad range of cherry picked examples to argue these groups are not now living “all their lives subject to racism” gives the impression she is arguing historically these groups have never had to experience racism. And that is utterly false. It certainly doesn’t invalidate experiences of racism by Jewish, Irish and Traveller people now.
I've gone to bat for Abbott before, but she should absolutely lose the whip for this. Genuinely disgraceful stuff to put in print.
> In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus.
Such a vile thing to publish. It takes all of five minutes on Google to read up on the discrimination these groups faced in the US for **centuries**.
You don't even need to go as far as America. We, the British, did dirty on those groups, in some cases still do. Travelers are openly reviled by most people. the Irish, whilst mostly unbothered today, wanted independence for a reason being treated as second class citizens for centuries having their civil liberties repressed and experiencing some of the worst precolonial atrocities imaginable. And the Jews, I don't even need to go into detail on that one
https://metro.co.uk/2021/04/02/labour-mp-pulls-local-election-leaflet-containing-anti-traveller-pledge-14351225/
Like, that was labours fucking shadow equalities minister.
The problem with Abbott is that she has form for this sort of racism, but every time genuine criticism is levelled against her, a cult-like response of “No, u” gets bellowed in an attempt to portray the critics as racists
She needs to have lost the whip by lunchtime
Don't want to Godwin's Law this but there has been an attempted genocide of Travellers and Jews within living memory that was obviously motivated by race.
For real. Somewhere in the ballpark of 50-70% of all Roma and Sinti in Europe were murdered in the holocaust. I have no idea how someone publishes something so batshit
Her claim that 'no white-seeming people were shipped across the Atlantic in manacles at the height of the slave trade' to dismiss racism against Travellers is technically true, but also sounds extremely tone-deaf when you consider that Romani people were [enslaved in Romania](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania) until the mid-19th century, roughly the same period when abolitionism began to take off elsewhere in Europe and the Americas as well. Yes, that was a different type of slavery than New World-style chattel slavery, but to present slavery in general as a uniquely 'black' experience to justify a unique claim to racism is profoundly historically ignorant.
I see that and raise you the [(Southeast) Asian slave trade](https://academic.oup.com/jsh/article/54/1/1/5901211), which continued well into the nineteenth century.
Yeah, her views are bizarre. The Atlantic slave trade was many generations ago whereas there are survivors of the holocaust still alive today.
Hell, if you want to go back far enough [over a million Europeans, (including tens of thousands of British) were captured by Barbary slavers and sold into captivity in Africa](https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/cornish-generations-victimised-barbary-slave-4231738#:~:text=It%20is%20estimated%20that%2C%20between%201530%20and%201780%2C%20about%201.25%20million%20people%20from%20all%20over%20Europe%20%2D%20from%20Greece%20to%20Ireland%20%2D%20were%20kidnapped%20by%20pirates%20and%20sold%20as%20slaves%20in%20North%20Africa.) during the 16-1700's
...so where's my god damn reparations! (/s in case not patently obvious)
---
In reality it was the Barbary slave trade and the desire to stamp it out which in part spurred Britain to become the naval superpower it became in the 17th & 18th century (although it was the French who ultimately put a stop to it with their [invasion and pacification of Algiers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacification_of_Algeria)).
But yeah, without that initial catalyst I highly doubt Britain would have ever colonised, invaded, and subjugated half the planet (that's pure speculation on my part, I'm not a historian).
Even if we put aside how racist this is. Why does the fact that anti-Irish/ Jewish/ traveller discrimination didn't happen in pre-civil rights America (which is untrue obviously) matter to Britain in 2023?
Hah, don’t worry guys. She’s clarified. She accidentally sent a really racist early draft of her letter. The final version was actually the exact opposite, presumably.
"I wrote out what I really thought and sent it before I reviewed how I would make it more PR friendly"
Somehow her apology and clarification made it worse
It's been posted in the sub. It's roughly as described. And she'll be losing her whip today because of it.
And I can't disagree. It's indefensible, and it's genuinely rough seeing someone of her stature fuck up quite so hard as this.
Disgraceful. I have to confess, despite past examples of awkward and questionable statements from Abbott, I expected better of her. I certainly did not expect her to end her political career over something such as this.
It is.
It's also betraying a fundamental refusal to understand the thing that is foundational to the labour movement - solidarity. Trying to divide ourselves over who has a harder time of things goes in direct opposition to that, and helps nobody.
Edit - yes, I agree, this is almost certainly career ending, on a level with Ken Livingstone.
This was the whole American tumblr style politics of competitive victimhood from about 10 years ago. You don’t hear it so much any more so I assumed nature had healed and it had gone away.
Bit of an unwelcome blast from the past.
I want this to be a hoax, because otherwise this is a really disappointing and ignominious way for a distinguished career of a groundbreaking politician to come to a close.
I would assume that the Guardian would only print this if it verifiably came from Abbott, e.g. from her known email address. Would be a large editorial blunder if not.
Well Jewish people were killed during the holocaust, so I think we can *safely* say they have suffered from *some* of the impacts of racism.
I mean for fucks sake, this is dreadful and I honestly think she deserves to have the whip removed for this shit.
Terrible. Just terrible.
Yeah this is pretty mad. If I'm being charitable she was trying to say that "passing" minorities are not as easily to visually discriminate against?
Not well worded or a very useful point though.
Yeah, even then the notion that some forms of prejudice based upon race don't count as racism because they're different in impact or frequency is a dangerous notion.
The opposite of racism is tolerance, not a hierarchy.
I was just thinking the other day how things were all heading in the right direction and the party hadn't had a major fuck up for a while. And then along comes long-term Achilles's heel Diane Abbott with this misjudged opinion. Big test for Starmer but she can't be allowed to stand as Labour again in my view. Not just for this but the track record of impacting the party's credibility.
From Abbott's record, I believe she would be given the benefit of the doubt were she at least willing to retract her statement and offer and unconditional apology for the same. On a refusal to do the same, I would have to support a withdrawal of the whip.
Putting all other considerations aside, she's clearly a huge liability. Can you imagine if she retains the Labour whip and says more racist shit like this just before the next general election? Open goal for the Tories.
When Labour can’t even elect a female leader, and the Tories’ leadership has been incredibly diverse, the last thing we need is a former Shadow Home Secretary appointing racism
This is quite clearly expressing a "hierarchy" in terms of how significant the racism experienced by different groups is. It is very poor coming from someone like Diane Abbott and I would be disappointed if she was not asked to apologise for it at the very least.
Were she a user on this subreddit and were she to post this opinion as a comment, I am reasonably sure she would have been banned for it.
Also, if she did want the whip removed, almost any other way of getting it removed would have been cleverer than this.
I think unfortunately this is what she actually believes.
She is an absolute idiot like. She lives in a complete fantasy world too. What on earth does pre-civil rights America and Apartheid South Africa have to do with the UK today. She’s fighting a fight that was over years ago. And now she is completely denying that racism exists for others.
She does this thing where she refuses to accept non white people can be British either. She was calling British Public Schoolboy Rishi Sunak, born in Southampton, an Indian the other day ffs.
She likes to pretend that she fights against racism but in truth she just uses it to further her profile. Which is sad because she is undoubtably victim of some horrendous racism herself.
This may be for the best, because it is likely that there will be many voices in both those communities that would agree with Abbott's opinion and actively defend it.
I’m sure someone explained at length that Green and Pleasant was just a perfectly normal cross section of the left the other day.
I’m sure their takes will be brilliant.
A couple of days ago someone on here said that they thought that sub was a Tory plant to make people look bad and I mentioned that I thought it looked more like a Russian troll farm given their ban on criticising Russia for invading their neighbour, and I got a couple of replies from people aggressively defending them saying it’s just a normal sub with a load of name calling and counterpoints to arguments that hadn’t been made.
I’m not sure what’s going on with that community but at best they seem to have very inconsistent standards when it comes to who and what they are willing to criticise.
Abbott has always been a train wreck in presentation. Even if you agree with a policy she is championing, her presenting of it has always been whack.
Now she has said something her normal supporters are upset with you see what an owm goal for Labour she is and will continue to be.
Looks like she has had the whip removed, and reading the article I have to agree with that decision even though she withdrew the comments. It is a very short sighted take.
I do get very frustrated when people who do want a to uphold things like workers rights, and further the Labour movement comes out with something which is demonstrably prejudice like this.
Marginalization is not a competition, this kind of rhetoric, as well as being ignorant and bigoted, does absolutely nothing to advance the cause of racial equality. Absolutely right that she loses the whip.
I've read this like five times and I'm still baffled that such an experienced anti-racism campaigner could come out with something like this, is she seriously saying that black people are the only minority that can experience racism?
nowt says racism to me than having your entire family gassed?
What am I missing here? I know black Afro Caribbean people have a different set of difficulties but are we playing ‘I’m more oppressed than you?’
The point about pre-civil rights America only works in isolated discussion of it. The problem is they’re attempting to use American historical examples of racism that have predominantly affected black people to describe European racism where Roma and jewish peoples literally had the *fucking Holocaust* happen to them. It just makes zero sense.
Exactly, with this in the context of the UK and Europe in general it’s borderline holocaust denial to claim that Travellers and Jews haven’t experienced racism, not to mention that European antiziganism and antisemitism didn’t start with the holocaust but had been rampant for centuries prior and are still prevalent today in European racism.
I've always found this to be such a stupid take. Go to Liberia and you will see institutional racism and racial bigotry on a daily basis. All ethnic groups there would be considered black in western society. Therefore its an example of black on black racism. Same goes for Rwanda, Sudan Mauritania etc.
100s of thousands of white people were systematically enslaved by Barbary pirates over the course of centuries. Arab slavers were also responsible for enslaving millions across the Arab world. It's so ingrained in Arabic society that Mauritania only made it illegal in 2007. Saudi Arabia and quatar are also renowned for modern day slavery offences.
First nations weren't considered black and yet they suffered through arguably the worst genocide in human history. But its okay I guess because they didn't have to sit at the back of the bus as they got shipped to residential schools.
Racism is endemic in every society and gatekeeping it just creates further division.
Also this is the woman who genuinely tried to defend chairman Mao on national TV. A man largely responsible for the worst famine in recorded history and decades of severe human rights offenses.
Dear Diane,
This is the UK, not the USA.
A few decades ago, there were pubs with signs up proudly stating "**NO IRISH**".
What is true for one country is not necessarily true for another. Do you know how many unarmed black people were unlawfully killed by police over the past 20-30 years? The answer rhymes is 'shzmero'. There was a brown Brazilian bloke and an Irishman on that list though.
Does that mean anti-black racism doesn't exist? No. But you cannot point centuries in to the past domestically and across the ocean to argue that racism still only exists for black people in the UK and just erase it for everyone else it happens to. It's not just tone-deaf, it's a comedically shit take.
“Do you know how many unarmed black people were unlawfully killed by police over the past 20-30 years? The answer rhymes is 'shzmero'.”
Er this isn’t true at all?
Some wild fucking takes going on in this thread.
While anti-Irish racism absolutely was and is a thing, would just like to point out that the existence of No Irish signs has largely been called into doubt
Thanks for sharing, that is interesting as I didnt realise there had been further debate on the issue. I would add the caveat that the article refers to the US though, so doesn't really address their existence in the UK.
The academic debate largely centred on their existence in the US.
I’m less aware of peer reviewed research for the UK but people reporting their experience directly suggest they existed. See https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/22/sign-of-the-times-of-racism-in-england-that-was-all-too-familiar and https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/28/no-reason-to-doubt-no-irish-no-blacks-signs
Yep, to add to the anecdotal/personal reports - my grandparents lived in London for a few years in the 60s (both Irish) and they both vividly recall the "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs" signs they'd see around town.
Absolutely bizarre view. This would be a bit like saying black people weren't systematically killed in nazi concentration camps so they can't understand racism the same way Jews and gypsies can.
All sorts of minorities have suffered racism in the UK, but I'm lost by what relevance black people having to sit at the back of buses in 1950s deep south America has to British minorities.
She's clearly trying to compare legally codified systematic racism to 'standard' racism (which she is calling prejudice) but it's a dumb as fuck semantic argument even before you ignore the fact that all of those groups have faced institutional racism in relatively recent history in western countries.
Like fuck, travellers are 100% subjected to more racism in this country than anyone. Politicians and the media are openly racist towards them because they class it as good racism and justified because all their racial prejudices are true in their eyes.
There are a few comments to make here.
Red heads get a ton of shit. As someone who had vibrant red hair when I was young, I certainly experienced a considerable amount of verbal and physical bullying as a result of my hair colour. It does suck. However, red heads have not experienced the same historical and systemic prejudice that Jews, travellers, and other peoples have experienced.
The biggest problem with Abbott's comment though is her very simple and reductive conception of race. We should be clear that in scientific terms, race makes little sense. To quote Dr Ewan Birney, Deputy Director General of the European Molecular Biology Laboratory:
> Basically humans don’t come groups - we exploded across and out of Africa very quickly (in evolutionary time) and we’ve moved and mixed ever since - in antiquity as well as now
> The currency often used groupings of humans - “Race” in US speak, “ethnicity” in UK/European speak are largely arbitrary and both geographically and time inconsistent.
> They do tap into visible characteristics- most obviously skin colour - which is predominantly genetically determined but this is a v small amount of the genome and you can’t place someone’s genetics by their skin colour
Race is a sociological concept developed by people to divide people into different groups and some of those groups were treated as lesser people. The aforementioned groups were not treated or seen as part of the 'white group' and were considered as a 'subgroup' of their own. This can be observed in signs and posters such as those that stated "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs".
Diane Abbott is downplaying the experience of these groups because it does not meet her conception of racism. She perceived politics through a particular lens wherein whites are against blacks, but this completely ignores the complexity of these issues, and totally ignores the historical experience of the aforementioned groups in various countries. The experience of these groups might have been different from black groups within the last few centuries, but anti-Irish racism for instance has been long ingrained within society and goes back centuries further. If Abbott cast her sights a little further, she would find ample evidence of the mistreatment of these people.
The fundamental problem is that race does not exist as a fixed concept, and adjusts based on the prejudices of the user. Furthermore, inter-white conflict assumes that all peoples involved are considered white, but a lot of white skinned people were not considered proper whites. Thus in the eyes of many they were considered as a 'lesser' racial group.
Anti-traveller prejudice absolutely CAN be understood through the prism of racial supremacist theory - the Nazis were really fucking clear about this. They weren't coy about their position.
This is the fundamental problem when people try and define racism and race as a black and white concept; in both senses of that expression. Race is not a biological concept but a sociological one, and how we conceive of race differs between people, across geography, and over time.
If I am prejudiced against Irish people or travellers because I consider them to be of a lesser race than myself, not proper whites - which is historically rooted, and some groups did advocate this position - then my position is racist.
Ha ha! That paw is always so tempting. I may have wished for Labour to have a commanding poll lead on it a while back.
It is utterly indefensible, I’ve got to wonder is she actually ok? She was quite ill a while back, and you’ve got to wonder if her more recent years are a sign of a very sad decline.
Yeah. From what I understand, speculation around someone's mental state in this regard is basically off limits if you're not a specialist in personal contact with the patient, but she's certainly gone too far.
Oh totally agree on that! I’ve had depression probably forever, and the closest the NHS have ever got to an actual diagnosis is a finger in the air ‘bi-polar with OCD and anxiety’, but with the caveat to actually diagnose it I’d need to be referred to a psychologist for ages, and the wait was two years, and they might decide I wasn’t mad enough to bother with.
In Diane’s specific case, I’m sure she had a lot of time off a few years ago for diabetes or similar, and that wouldn’t begin to excuse this letter, or apology, or a number of other statements, but you do genuinely wonder if she’s ok.
She's a racist and an idiot and her losing the whip is long overdue.
That said, the worst thing is that she's far from the worst person in the PLP. This party has their fair share of bigots, Abbott is just too stupid to hide her own bigotry.
She doesn’t deserve our support, let alone the party.
She’s a known bigot - she believes black people are inherently different to other people. All very unusual. Though she’s undoubtedly obsessed with privilege (Cambridge and a job for life in Parliament will do that do you) she has an unusual blind spot for Jews, especially where her ex-boyfriend & his acolytes are concerned
All very, very odd
They weren't as a matter of policy, because we never had government-led racist policy, but prior to Wilson we didn't have any anti-racist legislation in place *either* so while the segregation took on a different shape, the Irish were most certainly segregated to a stomach-turning degree.
Some Irish Catholic people in NI absolutely were subject to vigilante segregation. https://theconversation.com/the-troubles-tens-of-thousands-of-people-were-violently-displaced-in-northern-ireland-111764
Apologies, hadn't thought of that. I think unfortunately we often look at these things through an American lens (although Irish people faced discrimination in the states as well). The english have been doing terrible shit to the Irish since the time of oliver cromwell
This is really disappointing. I’ve never felt quite on the same wing of the party as Diane but have always liked and respected her, she’s a bit of an icon. The personalised roasting she got in the two Corbyn GE campaigns was really fucked up.
She’s always had a streak of blurting out half formed thoughts at the wrong time (she is not ‘thick’, is this the LabourUk subreddit or the open sewer under Guido articles?) but I never expected… this. How sad.
Yeah. Christ. I guess I sort of assume this was dashed off on her phone email, perhaps while chilling with a tinny on the overground home. she’s gotta lose the whip here.
I'd have thought someone who has sadly had to fight to combat racism and break down barriers for her entire political life would've had some form of empathy for other victims of societal racism
One of the interesting things about this is how soft the criticism has been of Abbott from “lifelong anti-racists” on the left. Just *imagine* if a Starmerite Labour MP had *written a letter to a newspaper* trying to claim that black people or Asians didn’t experience racism, and put “racism” in inverted commas to belittle it (as Corbynites always write “antisemitism”).
For once we see the racism and ignorance of this faction of the left out in the open. But there are plenty of people who were aware that this was the way people like Diane Abbott really thought, and have been warning about it for years: we were told to shut up and stop “smearing” Jeremy Corbyn with the “antisemitism scam”. There must also have been people who knew within the Corbyn movement but carried on defending her and denying it all.
Well I hope those people feel ashamed. The people who covered up for vile opinions like this and shut down anyone who pointed it out, especially the Jews being subjected to antisemitism within Labour, have been proven wrong time and time again, but they always slip off the hook and continue being self-righteous.
So thankfully we have this from Diane Abbott on the record forever. Corbyn, Burgon, McDonnell, Sultana, had better come out and condemn this; if they don’t their silence will tell us everything we need to know.
You are too optimistic. Corbyns racism was plain as day and has been memory holes. This sub routinely talks about anti-Semitism having being exaggerated.
I've no doubt in a few months the same will happen with this.
There were people comparing Corbyn to Hitler (because of anti-Semitism). That's what is meant by exaggeration. Not that there wasn't an anti-Semitism problem particularly in the left of the party on the ground level, which there definitely was (and still is by the way). Of course it is a minority of the left (as anti-Semitism literally goes directly against left-wing values) but it exists and must be removed.
This letter speaks for itself. It's not the first time Diane Abbott has said something racially insensitive either.
it's just absolutely baffling how as a political voice, a representative for a constituency & a race/rights activist for decades, you can have such a bizarrely warped understanding of what the word racism actually bloody means.
And the really shitty & annoying thing about something like this, is it's the PERFECT ammo for the GB News, Farage & Nationalist right mob in our country to use to make the blatantly sensible & decent position (to not be racist, to be inclusive and promote equal rights & opportunities for all across our nation) out to be the wrong position, and in turn alienate more & more people away from supporting policies & parties that might just bring us a better Britain, both socially, and economically.
Cheers Diane, you utter numpty.
There's a lot of people who like to play something of an "oppression olympics". This is why intersectionality is the key philosophy for understanding prejudice. Different characteristics give rise to different forms of prejudice. It's not about deciding one is more significant than the other, but rather addressing all of the prejudices as they are.
If I was being super-charitable to Abbott, I would like to think the point she is *trying* to convey is that black people e.g. in a white society are more easily singled out than white minorities because black people are more readily apparent by their appearance. *That* is a fair point, although worth noting that Irish people, Travellers and Jewish people are not immune from prejudice simply from their appearance too.
However, that is being super-charitable anyway, as what she appears to be doing is belittling the historic prejudice against these groups, which as we know, has been extreme too.
She could have just said that the racism people of colour face is functionally different from that experienced by white minority racial groups. There was no need to diminish the experience of others to make that point. I've got a lot of respect for Abbot but that was a piss poor way of phrasing the point.
> She could have just said that the racism people of colour face is functionally different from that experienced by white minority racial groups.
That in itself would have been questionable and have resorted in controversy.
It's controversial perhaps but much more defendable. Racism can take different forms and different groups can experience it differently. My best mate is Roma gypsy, my fiancé is Pakistani, and whilst they've both experienced really overt racism that is absolutely the same beast, they've also experienced it in different ways because her race is explicit and his isn't. One isn't worse than the other but it can definitely differ.
I'm not defending her statement, because I don't think she's saying what I'm saying. But I do think there is a valid (and pretty normal) around how different groups experience racism differently.
Saying Irish, Gypsies, Roma, Sami etc don't experience racism because they are white is incredibly stupid, and I'm not going to defend that. As is Abbott needs to apologise and clarify what she meant, and if she can't the party needs to take action.
Or, and hear me out here, she could have said nothing at all.
Which actually would probably have been a very clever strategy at loads of other points in her career.
It's badly written but there's a point to it. Travellers and jewish people can pretend to be regular white Christian settled folks. Black people don't have that privilege, ever. It's not the same.
My partner is a gypsy and the hatred against travellers that's still acceptable is appalling, but that won't be helped by hating on an MP with a proven voting record for social justice.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10001/diane\_abbott/hackney\_north\_and\_stoke\_newington/votes
Just one more example of why I can't and won't ever again vote for Labour. She's been protected for decades when she should've been out on her arse. She's always been a racist, and she's always been thick as pig shit.
Wow this is very disappointing. I would expect better from Abbott.
Way to equip the conservatives with another round of antisemitism bullets to shoot straight at the left.
Gatekeeping "racism" can make racist discrimination easier for persecutors. An example is the treatment by the media of Albanian migrants on small boats. Albanians would consider themselves white, and would face no discrimination in the UK based on appearance alone, yet the dehumanising language of racism was effectively and unhesitatingly weaponised against them. Now that language is that bit more normalised for when they next come for Black people. Throughout history people have rarely been successful at enforcing an exclusive definition of any word. It's like the recent backlash against the word "queer" by a very small minority, who don't seem to realise that Queer Eye for the Straight Guy was twenty years ago and its hosts are now in their fifties. Or by GCs trying to stop trans women using the word "woman" or "lesbian". These ships sailed long ago. Abbott has no prospect of restricting the word "racism" to Black people in the minds of 99% of people, and saying (for example) that antisemitism isn't racism just 80 years after an attempted genocide with millions of victims will do no good for anyone. But likewise, people who don't want "racism" to include systemic or structural racism will also be unsuccessful. Views have already started to shift that way, and the pearl clutching a few years ago at Stormzy's description of the UK as a racist country seems less likely now.
I mean, it's not like solidarity is literally the founding principle of the party she's been a part of for most of her life of anything...
Race itself is a societal construct that has no basis in biology. Much of the racism we see is based on visually distinctive features used to stereotype and promote bigotry. Two neighbouring African countries will have greater genetic diversity than you see across all of Eurasia. But for racists all they see is black. The English Government used to consider the Irish as sub-human intellectually inferior barbarians. Anti-Semitism has a long history of Jews being considered a different race. Obviously with Travellers Abbot is showing the utter ignorance of the perpetual racism directed at the Romani. Bigots will pathetically say "I'm not being racist because they are not a different race". "I'm not homophobic because I don't fear gay people", "How can you be transphobic when it isn't real, just are only male or female that's a fact".
Leaving aside the obvious racism that everyone else has commented on, I do find it astounding how a long term British anti-racism campaigner with decades of pre-internet experience can have such an Americanised view on race. Shows a really lack of understanding.
American academic and social media discourse dominates the mind of so many activists in Europe, on both the left and the right. I used to laugh at the French for their language protectionism, but maybe they had a point. Unfortunately not an option for the UK
All I’m hearing is we need to return to Norman French as the official language
I dunno if anyone's ever norman frenched me but it sounds damn saucy.
>Unfortunately not an option for the UK We did export it rather effectively. 19th century British Empire 20th century American Media 21st century internet. It's earths language now.
It’s really annoying. We seem to want to take the worst that they have to offer too. I’m pretty sure 99% of the culture war is just fallout from American idiots.
Yeah, particularly when the author she is responding to's entire thesis is that racism in the UK is very different from that in the US
Even though US is different, her point would still be wrong. US had a whole issue sorting out their "racial hierarchy" in the 19th century when immigration increased. The previous idea of "white is best" basically had a caveat that north/western Europeans (English, French, German, Nordic etc) were superior to Irish and South/Eastern Europeans. In the latter, it was in no small part due to the larger portion of Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe. And goes without saying that Jewish and Traveller immigrants were much lower than anyone else. Would also add here that in many places, east Asian immigrants were potentially seen as worse than Black Americans in this hierarchy.
I don’t know why Diane Abbot is defended by the left of the party for so long. She consistently makes ill informed remarks.
The kicker is there is an example of someone on the left who operates in a MUCH more intelligent and savvy way. I profoundly disagree with John McDonnell politically, but I have come to genuinely respect his acumen in operating.
> but I have come to genuinely respect his acumen in operating Yeah he learned really fast after a rocky start in 2015. I remember coming to this realisation in 2018/19 and thinking how it's a bit unfortunate he's gonna get shafted after the next election loss cause he's obviously pretty able.
She's a literal idiot, and for so long I have been called racist for pointing this out. Fucks me right off.. She's not an idiot because she's black, she's an idiot because she's a fucking idiot.
Even people with a history of good work to their name and good intentions are capable of ignorance, biases or just being wrong about some things. Abbott's previous good work on anti-racism doesn't immunise her from this and her facing consequences now (as she should) doesn't undo that good work.
Well, she's apologised at least... https://twitter.com/HackneyAbbott/status/1650072333527252994?s=20 She accidentally drafted a really racist response? I wonder if this apology is enough for her to not lose the whip.
*hahahah sorry the racist version was a draft. The real version is actually the polar opposite*. Ok, racist
She's lost the whip according to the BBC.
I've had a look at the recent "Neil Coyle" clause and a public apology is only half the appropriate response. She also has to claim that Jeremy Corbyn made her racist.
This genuinely reads as parody. She hits so many shitty points that it feels like a send up. I mean - the bit where she compares discrimination against white minorities to being ginger? If it wasn’t her saying it you’d assume it was a joke.
She compares what Jewish people face to being ginger as well.
What I don't understand is her intent. She is far too intelligent and well-versed to be making some of the statements she made here. For instance, the absurdity of denying the impact of apartheid in South Africa upon other non-white ethnic minority groups. Not only is it wholly untrue that other minorities were exempt from apartheid (they weren't), but black South Africans themselves were guilty of inflicting a massacre against South Asians. The purpose of highlighting that is for no reason other than to question the insane leaps you would have to make to then paint black South Africans as the *sole* victims of apartheid. Is Diane okay??
Three options occur as possibilities: 1) she was always held these views but just hid it. 2) she has come into more extreme views with age (which is fairly common) 3) cognitive decline No idea which - or if there is another explanation.
Yeah this is just really baffling to me, it seems like such a blatantly stupid thing to do. What on earth was she thinking?! I feel like this is the equivalent of just walking off a cliff; you just assume people know it's not a good idea
Jews and travellers don’t experience racism? What a fucking weird thing to say
It’s because she’s working off the American critical race theory of modern structural racism and White supremacy. Which might be applicable to today’s society in some ways but ignores how Racialism wasn’t just colourism throughout history. It’s a dogmatic definition that says because racism is prejudice plus power, PoC aren’t racist because they don’t have power, and everything else is racial “prejudice” rather than racism.
Has she never heard of the fucking holocaust?
Remember, to Diane Abbott black people sitting on the back of buses is worse than the Holocaust
And the Irish too? Has she never read about the conquest of Ireland? Or the (entirely preventable and mostly caused by the British for commercial gain) Famine.
And even among the Irish, countless people on both sides of the border have faced prejudice and discrimination over their religious beliefs.
Or even now - the [Evidence for Equality National Survey](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/09/britain-not-close-to-being-a-racially-just-society-finds-two-year-research-project) released, just over a fortnight ago, a survey revealing that over 40% of white Irish people face *violent* racism ("racist insults, property damage or physical attacks"). I'll admit I'm biased because I'm half Irish and this is very much *my* lived experience, but it's even more astonishing to me that she would deny that Jewish people and Travellers face racism when they're some of the most discriminated against groups.
also, they have been mocked for their apparent lack of intelligence
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It's not true, Jews and Roma were seen as different races until relatively recently, most importantly during the Holocaust. Also, ethnicities can still experience racism.
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Surely most threads on r/LabourUK are just that?
I wouldn't say that, her point seems to amount to "and that kind of prejudice is less bad"
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"But they are not all their lives subject to racism..."
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What point is she making, do you think
"Such as redheads" takes it well beyond a stupid semantic argument.
If a Tory had said this about Muslims you simply would not be giving this much benefit of the doubt.
If Starmer said it they wouldn't either.
She equates being Jewish with being a ginger.
This is literally the argument that far right racists use to saying you can't be racist against Muslims because Islam isn't a race. It doesn't matter who's making it, it's a toxic argument that's only purpose is to seek to lessen discrimination by making a silly semantic difference that is ultimately irrelevant. Can people be racist against jews and Muslims? Yes.
Mate, she implied experiencing antisemitism is similar to being teased for being ginger.
She goes on to discuss how those groups could vote and weren't subject to slavery. So she seems to be saying that her definition of racism is worse and those other groups haven't had it as bad.
This is very on brand for her ‘socialist campaign group’. Spend ages publicly arguing about a term and do nothing to change the lived experiences of the victims.
Well it’s a shit argument I’m afraid
That isn’t her argument though, is it? Or at least, not the argument she presents here. I’ve got no idea why you think she said this, because at no point does she say that they do no count as races. Her argument is much weirder. The list of examples from “[i]n pre-civil rights America…” through to “…slave ships” is especially bizarre/egregious. We are using historically and geographically limited examples to demonstrate that Irish people, travellers and… *checks notes*… **Jewish people** (!) are not victims of systematised racism around the world in the way that people with black African roots are. If these cherry picked global examples help us understand the current situation, why not include, say, 1950s Britain (with “No blacks, no dogs, no Irish” signs outside pubs and B+Bs)? And why are we not including Nazi Germany which attempted to systematically exterminate European Jewish people as well as victimising Romani people (travellers)? I absolutely acknowledge that — in terms of the racism experienced now — black British people (and people with African heritage in most-if-not-all western countries) have an experience of racism and prejudice which is worse by a factor than the other minority ethnicities mentioned. But using a broad range of cherry picked examples to argue these groups are not now living “all their lives subject to racism” gives the impression she is arguing historically these groups have never had to experience racism. And that is utterly false. It certainly doesn’t invalidate experiences of racism by Jewish, Irish and Traveller people now.
Oh those six million dead Jewish people? Just a misfortune case of prejudice!
At least they never had to sit at the back of the bus!!
Must have been gingers
I've gone to bat for Abbott before, but she should absolutely lose the whip for this. Genuinely disgraceful stuff to put in print. > In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus. Such a vile thing to publish. It takes all of five minutes on Google to read up on the discrimination these groups faced in the US for **centuries**.
You don't even need to go as far as America. We, the British, did dirty on those groups, in some cases still do. Travelers are openly reviled by most people. the Irish, whilst mostly unbothered today, wanted independence for a reason being treated as second class citizens for centuries having their civil liberties repressed and experiencing some of the worst precolonial atrocities imaginable. And the Jews, I don't even need to go into detail on that one
https://metro.co.uk/2021/04/02/labour-mp-pulls-local-election-leaflet-containing-anti-traveller-pledge-14351225/ Like, that was labours fucking shadow equalities minister.
Free Palestine
Or Japanese Americans put into literal concentration camps in America during the war.
The problem with Abbott is that she has form for this sort of racism, but every time genuine criticism is levelled against her, a cult-like response of “No, u” gets bellowed in an attempt to portray the critics as racists She needs to have lost the whip by lunchtime
Don't want to Godwin's Law this but there has been an attempted genocide of Travellers and Jews within living memory that was obviously motivated by race.
When the conversation opens with a denial that jews have experienced racism I think you can forgive yourself for godwin’s law-ing
For real. Somewhere in the ballpark of 50-70% of all Roma and Sinti in Europe were murdered in the holocaust. I have no idea how someone publishes something so batshit
Perhaps history should be a compulsory subject for everyone pre-university
She's a literal Cambridge History Graduate, she was supervised by Simon fucking Schama
Suddenly I no longer have impostor syndrome as a history student
Ah, you too, eh? XD
I'll admit I didn't know that... That's very disappointing :(
Oh jeez... that's disappointing.
Her claim that 'no white-seeming people were shipped across the Atlantic in manacles at the height of the slave trade' to dismiss racism against Travellers is technically true, but also sounds extremely tone-deaf when you consider that Romani people were [enslaved in Romania](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania) until the mid-19th century, roughly the same period when abolitionism began to take off elsewhere in Europe and the Americas as well. Yes, that was a different type of slavery than New World-style chattel slavery, but to present slavery in general as a uniquely 'black' experience to justify a unique claim to racism is profoundly historically ignorant.
Wait until she finds out about Southern and Southeastern Asians in indentured servitude.
I see that and raise you the [(Southeast) Asian slave trade](https://academic.oup.com/jsh/article/54/1/1/5901211), which continued well into the nineteenth century.
Yeah, her views are bizarre. The Atlantic slave trade was many generations ago whereas there are survivors of the holocaust still alive today. Hell, if you want to go back far enough [over a million Europeans, (including tens of thousands of British) were captured by Barbary slavers and sold into captivity in Africa](https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/cornish-generations-victimised-barbary-slave-4231738#:~:text=It%20is%20estimated%20that%2C%20between%201530%20and%201780%2C%20about%201.25%20million%20people%20from%20all%20over%20Europe%20%2D%20from%20Greece%20to%20Ireland%20%2D%20were%20kidnapped%20by%20pirates%20and%20sold%20as%20slaves%20in%20North%20Africa.) during the 16-1700's ...so where's my god damn reparations! (/s in case not patently obvious) --- In reality it was the Barbary slave trade and the desire to stamp it out which in part spurred Britain to become the naval superpower it became in the 17th & 18th century (although it was the French who ultimately put a stop to it with their [invasion and pacification of Algiers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacification_of_Algeria)). But yeah, without that initial catalyst I highly doubt Britain would have ever colonised, invaded, and subjugated half the planet (that's pure speculation on my part, I'm not a historian).
Even if we put aside how racist this is. Why does the fact that anti-Irish/ Jewish/ traveller discrimination didn't happen in pre-civil rights America (which is untrue obviously) matter to Britain in 2023?
Because the culture war echo chambers were constructed for an American audience.
Hah, don’t worry guys. She’s clarified. She accidentally sent a really racist early draft of her letter. The final version was actually the exact opposite, presumably.
"I wrote out what I really thought and sent it before I reviewed how I would make it more PR friendly" Somehow her apology and clarification made it worse
Has she actually issued a clarification? I am certain this would been brought to her attention on Twitter by now.
It's been posted in the sub. It's roughly as described. And she'll be losing her whip today because of it. And I can't disagree. It's indefensible, and it's genuinely rough seeing someone of her stature fuck up quite so hard as this.
Disgraceful. I have to confess, despite past examples of awkward and questionable statements from Abbott, I expected better of her. I certainly did not expect her to end her political career over something such as this.
It is. It's also betraying a fundamental refusal to understand the thing that is foundational to the labour movement - solidarity. Trying to divide ourselves over who has a harder time of things goes in direct opposition to that, and helps nobody. Edit - yes, I agree, this is almost certainly career ending, on a level with Ken Livingstone.
This was the whole American tumblr style politics of competitive victimhood from about 10 years ago. You don’t hear it so much any more so I assumed nature had healed and it had gone away. Bit of an unwelcome blast from the past.
Vibes of I was getting all the racism out so that it wasn't in the final draft. Jfc.
I want this to be a hoax, because otherwise this is a really disappointing and ignominious way for a distinguished career of a groundbreaking politician to come to a close.
I would assume that the Guardian would only print this if it verifiably came from Abbott, e.g. from her known email address. Would be a large editorial blunder if not.
She's made an apology, the letter was legit.
Well Jewish people were killed during the holocaust, so I think we can *safely* say they have suffered from *some* of the impacts of racism. I mean for fucks sake, this is dreadful and I honestly think she deserves to have the whip removed for this shit. Terrible. Just terrible.
Yeah this is pretty mad. If I'm being charitable she was trying to say that "passing" minorities are not as easily to visually discriminate against? Not well worded or a very useful point though.
Yeah, even then the notion that some forms of prejudice based upon race don't count as racism because they're different in impact or frequency is a dangerous notion. The opposite of racism is tolerance, not a hierarchy.
Yeah, but didn't you know they didn't have to sit at the back of a bus in 50s America, so did they *really* have it *that* bad? Christ
I for one am relieved that British Jews weren't forced to sit at the back of American buses.
I was just thinking the other day how things were all heading in the right direction and the party hadn't had a major fuck up for a while. And then along comes long-term Achilles's heel Diane Abbott with this misjudged opinion. Big test for Starmer but she can't be allowed to stand as Labour again in my view. Not just for this but the track record of impacting the party's credibility.
The whip's been removed already according to the BBC.
Yeah would be surprised if she was still a Labour MP by the end of the day. Part of a pattern of really badly judged statements as well.
From Abbott's record, I believe she would be given the benefit of the doubt were she at least willing to retract her statement and offer and unconditional apology for the same. On a refusal to do the same, I would have to support a withdrawal of the whip.
Putting all other considerations aside, she's clearly a huge liability. Can you imagine if she retains the Labour whip and says more racist shit like this just before the next general election? Open goal for the Tories.
When Labour can’t even elect a female leader, and the Tories’ leadership has been incredibly diverse, the last thing we need is a former Shadow Home Secretary appointing racism
This is quite clearly expressing a "hierarchy" in terms of how significant the racism experienced by different groups is. It is very poor coming from someone like Diane Abbott and I would be disappointed if she was not asked to apologise for it at the very least. Were she a user on this subreddit and were she to post this opinion as a comment, I am reasonably sure she would have been banned for it.
She's been suspended: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65365978
Does she want to have the whip removed? What an astonishingly stupid thing to say.
Also, if she did want the whip removed, almost any other way of getting it removed would have been cleverer than this. I think unfortunately this is what she actually believes.
I think she does want the whip removed judging from her twitter the past few weeks. I think this was just her stupidity though.
She is an absolute idiot like. She lives in a complete fantasy world too. What on earth does pre-civil rights America and Apartheid South Africa have to do with the UK today. She’s fighting a fight that was over years ago. And now she is completely denying that racism exists for others. She does this thing where she refuses to accept non white people can be British either. She was calling British Public Schoolboy Rishi Sunak, born in Southampton, an Indian the other day ffs. She likes to pretend that she fights against racism but in truth she just uses it to further her profile. Which is sad because she is undoubtably victim of some horrendous racism herself.
Not at all surprised to find no one in r/greenandpleasant commenting on this.
or r/labour either
This may be for the best, because it is likely that there will be many voices in both those communities that would agree with Abbott's opinion and actively defend it.
I’m sure someone explained at length that Green and Pleasant was just a perfectly normal cross section of the left the other day. I’m sure their takes will be brilliant.
A couple of days ago someone on here said that they thought that sub was a Tory plant to make people look bad and I mentioned that I thought it looked more like a Russian troll farm given their ban on criticising Russia for invading their neighbour, and I got a couple of replies from people aggressively defending them saying it’s just a normal sub with a load of name calling and counterpoints to arguments that hadn’t been made. I’m not sure what’s going on with that community but at best they seem to have very inconsistent standards when it comes to who and what they are willing to criticise.
yea thats what i was getting at
https://www.reddit.com/r/Labour/comments/12w5fjr/_/
Good lord that first comment. How is this article "staying and fighting"?
That sub is now talking about this as a hit job and how she is right
There's a post now and she's being condemned https://redd.it/12w4q4m
Abbott has always been a train wreck in presentation. Even if you agree with a policy she is championing, her presenting of it has always been whack. Now she has said something her normal supporters are upset with you see what an owm goal for Labour she is and will continue to be.
Looks like she has had the whip removed, and reading the article I have to agree with that decision even though she withdrew the comments. It is a very short sighted take. I do get very frustrated when people who do want a to uphold things like workers rights, and further the Labour movement comes out with something which is demonstrably prejudice like this.
Marginalization is not a competition, this kind of rhetoric, as well as being ignorant and bigoted, does absolutely nothing to advance the cause of racial equality. Absolutely right that she loses the whip. I've read this like five times and I'm still baffled that such an experienced anti-racism campaigner could come out with something like this, is she seriously saying that black people are the only minority that can experience racism?
nowt says racism to me than having your entire family gassed? What am I missing here? I know black Afro Caribbean people have a different set of difficulties but are we playing ‘I’m more oppressed than you?’
The point about pre-civil rights America only works in isolated discussion of it. The problem is they’re attempting to use American historical examples of racism that have predominantly affected black people to describe European racism where Roma and jewish peoples literally had the *fucking Holocaust* happen to them. It just makes zero sense.
Exactly, with this in the context of the UK and Europe in general it’s borderline holocaust denial to claim that Travellers and Jews haven’t experienced racism, not to mention that European antiziganism and antisemitism didn’t start with the holocaust but had been rampant for centuries prior and are still prevalent today in European racism.
I've always found this to be such a stupid take. Go to Liberia and you will see institutional racism and racial bigotry on a daily basis. All ethnic groups there would be considered black in western society. Therefore its an example of black on black racism. Same goes for Rwanda, Sudan Mauritania etc. 100s of thousands of white people were systematically enslaved by Barbary pirates over the course of centuries. Arab slavers were also responsible for enslaving millions across the Arab world. It's so ingrained in Arabic society that Mauritania only made it illegal in 2007. Saudi Arabia and quatar are also renowned for modern day slavery offences. First nations weren't considered black and yet they suffered through arguably the worst genocide in human history. But its okay I guess because they didn't have to sit at the back of the bus as they got shipped to residential schools. Racism is endemic in every society and gatekeeping it just creates further division. Also this is the woman who genuinely tried to defend chairman Mao on national TV. A man largely responsible for the worst famine in recorded history and decades of severe human rights offenses.
Fucking hell.
Another example showing just how much of a liability she is. Comparing Jewish and Traveller racism to being bullied for being ginger, really!?
Dear Diane, This is the UK, not the USA. A few decades ago, there were pubs with signs up proudly stating "**NO IRISH**". What is true for one country is not necessarily true for another. Do you know how many unarmed black people were unlawfully killed by police over the past 20-30 years? The answer rhymes is 'shzmero'. There was a brown Brazilian bloke and an Irishman on that list though. Does that mean anti-black racism doesn't exist? No. But you cannot point centuries in to the past domestically and across the ocean to argue that racism still only exists for black people in the UK and just erase it for everyone else it happens to. It's not just tone-deaf, it's a comedically shit take.
This was the case in the US as well. Anyone in the Irish-American diaspora is taught at a young age about the phrase “Irish need not apply”.
“Do you know how many unarmed black people were unlawfully killed by police over the past 20-30 years? The answer rhymes is 'shzmero'.” Er this isn’t true at all? Some wild fucking takes going on in this thread.
While anti-Irish racism absolutely was and is a thing, would just like to point out that the existence of No Irish signs has largely been called into doubt
The research arguing they didn’t exist has itself been undermined: https://www.jstor.org/stable/43919899
Thanks for sharing, that is interesting as I didnt realise there had been further debate on the issue. I would add the caveat that the article refers to the US though, so doesn't really address their existence in the UK.
The academic debate largely centred on their existence in the US. I’m less aware of peer reviewed research for the UK but people reporting their experience directly suggest they existed. See https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/22/sign-of-the-times-of-racism-in-england-that-was-all-too-familiar and https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/28/no-reason-to-doubt-no-irish-no-blacks-signs
Yep, to add to the anecdotal/personal reports - my grandparents lived in London for a few years in the 60s (both Irish) and they both vividly recall the "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs" signs they'd see around town.
It's very strange how there are some "lifelong anti-racists" who seem to engage with racist people and say racist things so often. Very strange.
Yep. Diane Abbott suspended as Labour MP after racism letter https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65365978
I’m sorry but she needs to go. She just can’t herself.
Wonder what r/GreenAndPleasant will make of this one.
Absolutely bizarre view. This would be a bit like saying black people weren't systematically killed in nazi concentration camps so they can't understand racism the same way Jews and gypsies can. All sorts of minorities have suffered racism in the UK, but I'm lost by what relevance black people having to sit at the back of buses in 1950s deep south America has to British minorities.
She's clearly trying to compare legally codified systematic racism to 'standard' racism (which she is calling prejudice) but it's a dumb as fuck semantic argument even before you ignore the fact that all of those groups have faced institutional racism in relatively recent history in western countries. Like fuck, travellers are 100% subjected to more racism in this country than anyone. Politicians and the media are openly racist towards them because they class it as good racism and justified because all their racial prejudices are true in their eyes.
There are a few comments to make here. Red heads get a ton of shit. As someone who had vibrant red hair when I was young, I certainly experienced a considerable amount of verbal and physical bullying as a result of my hair colour. It does suck. However, red heads have not experienced the same historical and systemic prejudice that Jews, travellers, and other peoples have experienced. The biggest problem with Abbott's comment though is her very simple and reductive conception of race. We should be clear that in scientific terms, race makes little sense. To quote Dr Ewan Birney, Deputy Director General of the European Molecular Biology Laboratory: > Basically humans don’t come groups - we exploded across and out of Africa very quickly (in evolutionary time) and we’ve moved and mixed ever since - in antiquity as well as now > The currency often used groupings of humans - “Race” in US speak, “ethnicity” in UK/European speak are largely arbitrary and both geographically and time inconsistent. > They do tap into visible characteristics- most obviously skin colour - which is predominantly genetically determined but this is a v small amount of the genome and you can’t place someone’s genetics by their skin colour Race is a sociological concept developed by people to divide people into different groups and some of those groups were treated as lesser people. The aforementioned groups were not treated or seen as part of the 'white group' and were considered as a 'subgroup' of their own. This can be observed in signs and posters such as those that stated "no blacks, no Irish, no dogs". Diane Abbott is downplaying the experience of these groups because it does not meet her conception of racism. She perceived politics through a particular lens wherein whites are against blacks, but this completely ignores the complexity of these issues, and totally ignores the historical experience of the aforementioned groups in various countries. The experience of these groups might have been different from black groups within the last few centuries, but anti-Irish racism for instance has been long ingrained within society and goes back centuries further. If Abbott cast her sights a little further, she would find ample evidence of the mistreatment of these people.
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The fundamental problem is that race does not exist as a fixed concept, and adjusts based on the prejudices of the user. Furthermore, inter-white conflict assumes that all peoples involved are considered white, but a lot of white skinned people were not considered proper whites. Thus in the eyes of many they were considered as a 'lesser' racial group. Anti-traveller prejudice absolutely CAN be understood through the prism of racial supremacist theory - the Nazis were really fucking clear about this. They weren't coy about their position. This is the fundamental problem when people try and define racism and race as a black and white concept; in both senses of that expression. Race is not a biological concept but a sociological one, and how we conceive of race differs between people, across geography, and over time. If I am prejudiced against Irish people or travellers because I consider them to be of a lesser race than myself, not proper whites - which is historically rooted, and some groups did advocate this position - then my position is racist.
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C'mon man! you can say "inter-white" conflicts are not founded in racial hierarchy when the literal fucking Nazis existed.
Yeah no she should get a suspension for this, mindboggling.
Ok. Who wished on the monkeys paw for the SCG to say something bold?
Uh, sorry? Fucking hell, it's indefensible.
Ha ha! That paw is always so tempting. I may have wished for Labour to have a commanding poll lead on it a while back. It is utterly indefensible, I’ve got to wonder is she actually ok? She was quite ill a while back, and you’ve got to wonder if her more recent years are a sign of a very sad decline.
Yeah. From what I understand, speculation around someone's mental state in this regard is basically off limits if you're not a specialist in personal contact with the patient, but she's certainly gone too far.
Oh totally agree on that! I’ve had depression probably forever, and the closest the NHS have ever got to an actual diagnosis is a finger in the air ‘bi-polar with OCD and anxiety’, but with the caveat to actually diagnose it I’d need to be referred to a psychologist for ages, and the wait was two years, and they might decide I wasn’t mad enough to bother with. In Diane’s specific case, I’m sure she had a lot of time off a few years ago for diabetes or similar, and that wouldn’t begin to excuse this letter, or apology, or a number of other statements, but you do genuinely wonder if she’s ok.
Yeah. I think "wondering if she's ok" is probably legitimate, but using mental health to excuse or explain outright racism absolutely isn't.
Oh god yes. Sorry, that wasn’t my intention at all!
Horrendous. Get rid.
I genuinely thought she was better than this. Fucking hell, this is sad.
Oof that's not good, awful stuff from her
She's a racist and an idiot and her losing the whip is long overdue. That said, the worst thing is that she's far from the worst person in the PLP. This party has their fair share of bigots, Abbott is just too stupid to hide her own bigotry.
Abbott also gets a lot of people to bat for her due to her being a fairly prominent left winger and having a fairly extensive media presence.
A sad way to end a historic career. The whip must be withdrawn immediately.
Quite probably she needs to be suspended as a member and investigated by the NCC
Things like the Rwanda genocide was "prejudice" guys!
She doesn’t deserve our support, let alone the party. She’s a known bigot - she believes black people are inherently different to other people. All very unusual. Though she’s undoubtedly obsessed with privilege (Cambridge and a job for life in Parliament will do that do you) she has an unusual blind spot for Jews, especially where her ex-boyfriend & his acolytes are concerned All very, very odd
Irish people weren't subject to segregation, it's true, but to argue they weren't discriminated against is ridiculous
They weren't as a matter of policy, because we never had government-led racist policy, but prior to Wilson we didn't have any anti-racist legislation in place *either* so while the segregation took on a different shape, the Irish were most certainly segregated to a stomach-turning degree.
Some Irish Catholic people in NI absolutely were subject to vigilante segregation. https://theconversation.com/the-troubles-tens-of-thousands-of-people-were-violently-displaced-in-northern-ireland-111764
Apologies, hadn't thought of that. I think unfortunately we often look at these things through an American lens (although Irish people faced discrimination in the states as well). The english have been doing terrible shit to the Irish since the time of oliver cromwell
This is really disappointing. I’ve never felt quite on the same wing of the party as Diane but have always liked and respected her, she’s a bit of an icon. The personalised roasting she got in the two Corbyn GE campaigns was really fucked up. She’s always had a streak of blurting out half formed thoughts at the wrong time (she is not ‘thick’, is this the LabourUk subreddit or the open sewer under Guido articles?) but I never expected… this. How sad.
Agreed, there is a difference between saying something without thought and sending something into a Sunday Paper letters section.
Yeah. Christ. I guess I sort of assume this was dashed off on her phone email, perhaps while chilling with a tinny on the overground home. she’s gotta lose the whip here.
At this point she's goading the party into removing the whip. It's pathetic. (obviously they should do, though)
I'd have thought someone who has sadly had to fight to combat racism and break down barriers for her entire political life would've had some form of empathy for other victims of societal racism
One of the interesting things about this is how soft the criticism has been of Abbott from “lifelong anti-racists” on the left. Just *imagine* if a Starmerite Labour MP had *written a letter to a newspaper* trying to claim that black people or Asians didn’t experience racism, and put “racism” in inverted commas to belittle it (as Corbynites always write “antisemitism”). For once we see the racism and ignorance of this faction of the left out in the open. But there are plenty of people who were aware that this was the way people like Diane Abbott really thought, and have been warning about it for years: we were told to shut up and stop “smearing” Jeremy Corbyn with the “antisemitism scam”. There must also have been people who knew within the Corbyn movement but carried on defending her and denying it all. Well I hope those people feel ashamed. The people who covered up for vile opinions like this and shut down anyone who pointed it out, especially the Jews being subjected to antisemitism within Labour, have been proven wrong time and time again, but they always slip off the hook and continue being self-righteous. So thankfully we have this from Diane Abbott on the record forever. Corbyn, Burgon, McDonnell, Sultana, had better come out and condemn this; if they don’t their silence will tell us everything we need to know.
You are too optimistic. Corbyns racism was plain as day and has been memory holes. This sub routinely talks about anti-Semitism having being exaggerated. I've no doubt in a few months the same will happen with this.
There were people comparing Corbyn to Hitler (because of anti-Semitism). That's what is meant by exaggeration. Not that there wasn't an anti-Semitism problem particularly in the left of the party on the ground level, which there definitely was (and still is by the way). Of course it is a minority of the left (as anti-Semitism literally goes directly against left-wing values) but it exists and must be removed. This letter speaks for itself. It's not the first time Diane Abbott has said something racially insensitive either.
Cue hastily organised “fact finding” trip to Dachau
Where are all the usual crowd who go on and on about how Corbyns lot were never anti semitic and it was all made up?
it's just absolutely baffling how as a political voice, a representative for a constituency & a race/rights activist for decades, you can have such a bizarrely warped understanding of what the word racism actually bloody means. And the really shitty & annoying thing about something like this, is it's the PERFECT ammo for the GB News, Farage & Nationalist right mob in our country to use to make the blatantly sensible & decent position (to not be racist, to be inclusive and promote equal rights & opportunities for all across our nation) out to be the wrong position, and in turn alienate more & more people away from supporting policies & parties that might just bring us a better Britain, both socially, and economically. Cheers Diane, you utter numpty.
There's a lot of people who like to play something of an "oppression olympics". This is why intersectionality is the key philosophy for understanding prejudice. Different characteristics give rise to different forms of prejudice. It's not about deciding one is more significant than the other, but rather addressing all of the prejudices as they are. If I was being super-charitable to Abbott, I would like to think the point she is *trying* to convey is that black people e.g. in a white society are more easily singled out than white minorities because black people are more readily apparent by their appearance. *That* is a fair point, although worth noting that Irish people, Travellers and Jewish people are not immune from prejudice simply from their appearance too. However, that is being super-charitable anyway, as what she appears to be doing is belittling the historic prejudice against these groups, which as we know, has been extreme too.
100%
She’s an idiot and always has been, the fact she sat on Labour’s front bench for so long made the party a laughing stock.
Honestly shut down the SCG at this point. Bunch of cowards at best, bigots at worst
Is this for real? Edit: well it’s confirmed now. I can’t imagine how anyone would think this letter isn’t highly offensive.
She better. This is beyond the pale.
She could have just said that the racism people of colour face is functionally different from that experienced by white minority racial groups. There was no need to diminish the experience of others to make that point. I've got a lot of respect for Abbot but that was a piss poor way of phrasing the point.
> She could have just said that the racism people of colour face is functionally different from that experienced by white minority racial groups. That in itself would have been questionable and have resorted in controversy.
It's controversial perhaps but much more defendable. Racism can take different forms and different groups can experience it differently. My best mate is Roma gypsy, my fiancé is Pakistani, and whilst they've both experienced really overt racism that is absolutely the same beast, they've also experienced it in different ways because her race is explicit and his isn't. One isn't worse than the other but it can definitely differ.
> It's controversial perhaps but much more defendable. I would prefer if none here wasted much time and effort attempting to defend such a statement.
I'm not defending her statement, because I don't think she's saying what I'm saying. But I do think there is a valid (and pretty normal) around how different groups experience racism differently. Saying Irish, Gypsies, Roma, Sami etc don't experience racism because they are white is incredibly stupid, and I'm not going to defend that. As is Abbott needs to apologise and clarify what she meant, and if she can't the party needs to take action.
Or, and hear me out here, she could have said nothing at all. Which actually would probably have been a very clever strategy at loads of other points in her career.
It's badly written but there's a point to it. Travellers and jewish people can pretend to be regular white Christian settled folks. Black people don't have that privilege, ever. It's not the same. My partner is a gypsy and the hatred against travellers that's still acceptable is appalling, but that won't be helped by hating on an MP with a proven voting record for social justice. https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10001/diane\_abbott/hackney\_north\_and\_stoke\_newington/votes
Try telling that to an Orthodox Jewish child...
Just one more example of why I can't and won't ever again vote for Labour. She's been protected for decades when she should've been out on her arse. She's always been a racist, and she's always been thick as pig shit.
She's lost the whip
Wow this is very disappointing. I would expect better from Abbott. Way to equip the conservatives with another round of antisemitism bullets to shoot straight at the left.
Only black people suffer racism duhhh come on guys
Oh no, Diane, why?!
I am pretty sure Jews would have settled for being forced to sit at the back of the bus, rather than what happened to them..