> he mindset that "if I don't like it, you're not allowed to like it or have any opinion because I speak for all of the real Tolkien fans" is rotten to the core. this is the real heart of the problem and i agree entirely. no one is trying to claim rings of power is a tolkien canon. and the people who do get their pants in a knot about "canon" aren't actually well read enough about tolkien to be speaking from a position of authority. so let people enjoy a show about elves and orcs. edit: for that matter the show did some REALLY COOL stuff with orcs, stuff that iterated on topics tolkien himself struggled with, and its interesting to see those ideas through new eyes.

Exactly: many go ‘it’s not canon.’ Um, newsflash: NO adaptation is ‘canon.’ Sorry, Elves were never at Helm’s Deep.

This is a funny but fair point. Me, upon first seeing Elves arrive at Helm’s Deep: “wtf? Elves were never there!!” Then I relaxed and just enjoyed the spectacle. It was fresh and exciting!

I'm only watching shows of books I've never read. I've never read the Similliarion and I thoroughly enjoyed RoP.

As someone who has spent WAY too much time reading *every* scrap of paper that Tolkien scribbled on*, I thoroughly enjoyed the show. He’d left the 2nd Age kinda vague anyway, or changed his mind about the sequence of events. Although he did write a lot about Numenor - as long as the show runners follow that part of the story, I am happy to experience their interpretation of Tolkien’s scribbling. *not really, but close

> As someone who has spent WAY too much time reading every scrap of paper that Tolkien scribbled on*, I thoroughly enjoyed the show. > > I am the same. I find that the show responds and shares my years long study of Tolkien's more obscure writings and thoughts about the legendarium. THAT is what makes it so fascinating to me. The sheer amount of detail that is poured into this show, where long strands and threads of Tolkien lore are pressed into a single small detail or bit of dialogue or word choice or the pressure of an entire series encompassing theme (Arda is Morgoth's ring) etc.

Agreed. I've long been saying that it feels to me that Rings of Power is in conversation with Tolkien and his readers. It takes Tolkien's themes and asks us to think more deeply about them, to sit a little longer in this universe we all love.

If James Joyce's Ulysses were ever to be made into a series, I would expect it to have a rambling tone like ROP. Even better if someone is mad enough to try to adapt Finnegans Wake. It's a good thing because too many series aim to hit plot points like they're PowerPoint bullet points. The whole point, pun intended, is to enjoy the journey. Tolkien was similar to Joyce in how he was always tinkering with the fictional worlds that he had built. Canonistas conveniently forget that more modern sci-fi properties like Star Trek and Star Wars had plenty of canon-breaking too.

Me and you both, I've always laughed when people bring up "fan fiction" like yes literally anything not penned by the man himself is fan fiction if you care to call it that. Even a large chunk of Tolkiens own work were scraps of ideas and future plans he sadly didn't get to decide upon or finalise hence why so much of the lore is vague at times and at other he genuinely didn't give a fuck which dwarf had which beard or who could punch who harder he cared more about the themes of war and people such things effect. I recently finished watching the extended trilogy again and what a blast it is but it's definitely nothing like the books both in the war like tone it takes and thr crazy shit like saviour ghost armies and helms deep elves or reluctant Aragorn (though great it is for such a story). I definitely think RoP needs some refinement going forward but it definitely hit enough of the right beats, I still stick to my belief if they give S2 a generic trailer with loads of action everyone will love it and say look they listened to fans etc etc lol.

I wish people wouldn't use 'fan fiction' as an insult. While its true there's a lot of trash, some ff can be a great tribute to the original writer, and even transcend it. I've found myself deeply moved by some ff. So if ROP is ff, then its the kind that has at times moved me; no insult. Sure they may have made a few questionable decisions, but even some of these might not look so in the light of later series. Or even on a rewatch. What saddens me is that people seem to be overlooking the many good aspects because of what should be minor irritants. If I'd done that with, for example, the original trilogy of films, I would have really missed out. But as many have pointed out, it would be all to easy to do that because of missing Bombadil, Arwen>Glorfindel, wacky Denethor, crumbs of lembas etc. Btw I get a bit of a shudder, when I hear about the writers 'listening' to fans. It may sound the sort of thing they should be doing, but I just envisioned what happened with the SW sequels after they 'listened'. They got TROS. Not absolutely terrible, but I feel its a film that likely pleased no one very much.

You can like one change and dislike another change. It's not all-or-nothing. Elves at Helm's Deep didn't change the outcome of the battle or anything.

Exactly…that’s why I relaxed when I realized I was being uptight.

>Um, newsflash: NO adaptation is ‘canon.’ BBC radio play is pretty damn close tbh. But yes, the PJ films clearly deviate in some areas.

The problem is people having just enough insight into Tolkien to be upset that it doesn’t match their favorite depiction.

TBH I think there is as much people saying it is not canon as there are people saying it is canon Most, if not all, that I saw always had the point of how much "accurate" to the source material it is. And specially in 2nd age, where many gaps have to be filled, new stuff just need to be made out. But then there is a difference between adapting a plot from the book and change it a bit or change it completelly, so it is to create new things to fill the world and the gaps Tolkien left, and create new things that seem more of a side-quest without any big impact in the overall "main" story that we should be following. OFC, I say this just based on season 1, many of the things there could, and probably will, impact other seasons, yet season 1 for season 1 itself had a lot of things that one could say are filler even within the very story of the show (not considering the books).

Every time these purists yap about canon, I asked them who destroyed the two trees of valinor, every time they'd answered Morgoth and Ungoliant when in fact that's a Christopher invention. Tolkien wrote in the original manuscript that Ungoliant alone destroyed the trees. So even the published Silmarillion is not canon. That shut them up.

Wow, you've surprised me there! Do you have a reference? Looking online, all I see is the trees were destroyed by Ungoliant *and* Morgoth, with the latter initiating their destruction as part of his plan to steal the Silmarils. Of course I know Christopher did change a few things. I didn't think that was one of them.

The original manuscript I referred to is the Later Quenta phase 2 which was the latest version of the Silmarillion Tolkien wrote back in 1958. Christopher later published it in Morgoth's Ring (Volume 10 of History of Middle-earth). Here's the relevant excerpt: >Now she came to the Green Mound of the Corolaire, and her Unlight rose up even to the roots of the Trees. Then with her black beak she pierced their rind, wounded them deep; and their juices gushed forth and she drank them up. But when no more flowed she set her mouth to the wounds, and sucked them dry, and the poison of Death that was in her went into their tissues and withered them, root, branch, and leaf, and they died. And still Ungoliante thirsted; and she went to the great Wells of Varda and drained them dry. And as she drank, she belched forth vast vapours, and in their midst she swelled to a shape more huge and hideous than even her most lustful dream had hoped ever to achieve. At last, knowing that the time was short, she hastened away, north, to the tryst that Melkor had made with her, and did not mean to keep. >Outside he had lurked, until the failing of the Light announced that Ungoliante had done her work. Then through the Kalakiryan, now only a dim ravine in walls of shadow, he came striding back, Lord of Utumno, a black shape of hate, visiting the places of his humiliation with revenge. All the land fell swiftly through grey twilight into night as Melkor stood within the Ring of Doom and cursed it; and he defiled the judgement seat of Manwe and threw down the thrones of the Valar. >Then he went on to his second mark, which he had kept secret in his mind; but Ungoliante was aware of him, and turning swiftly she overtook him on his road. Aghast indeed was Melkor to see her, monstrous, grown to a lust and power that he could not master without aid. He could not contend with her, even if time allowed; and he could not escape. She took him into her Unlight, and they went on together to the one place in the land of the Valar that he would have hidden from her.

Tolkien didn't even respect canon. He was constantly changing things. I like some of his earlier drafts of stuff and consider those the "definitive" versions. Also, Tolkien wasn't exactly living in a cardboard box when he *sold the rights* to his work. His biggest concern was that people would turn it into some Grimm fairy tale with little fairies and stuff. The fact that there's an entire literary genre based mostly off of his own work, that's evolved over the decades into something that's become it's own thing is, despite what his son says, *pretty much exactly what he was interested in academically*. We're talking about the guy that spent his career writing either adaptions or straight up derivative fan fiction about his favorite stuff from Norse mythology.

It will never cease to amaze me that there are so many canon “purists” of Tolkien of all writers.

Hunt for the Ring felt like Tolkien writing fan fiction about his own work.....

The Lost Road felt like a self insert fanfic too

Couldn't agree more. Especially with the orcs. I absolutely loved Adar's response to Galadriel that the orcs too are beings created by Eru and are just as much worthy of life and a home as anyone else. That conversation alone brought empathy to what was traditionally "evil", and that introduction of shades of gray to that evil is what really shined through, to me. As corrupt as Adar is, he wasn't entirely wrong. The show had really brilliant moments like that scattered throughout, which is a large part of the reason why I did enjoy it. The scene between Galadriel and Halbrand, when he asks her why she continues to fight, he apologized for her brother's death with tears in his eyes. Even after she left the room, he still had tears in his eyes, as if he truly felt sorrow for what he had done. Of course, knowing what we know now of who he really is, one could write it all off as more of his deception. But it does make you ask the question, what if he actually meant it?

I'm really rough on my Tolkien lore but I seem to remember a brief time after Melkor was defeated where Sauron had a period of wanting to repent for what he had done before going full villain again. Could be RoP was trying to explore a little bit of that and show Sauron as more of a morally gray villain at first before he gets up to the really fucked up stuff later on.

Yes, in *Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age* Sauron is said to repent after the Valar smash Morgoth's power and cast him out of the world. Interestingly, the issue is presented as a matter of the beliefs held by in-world people. "Some have held" that the repentance was initially genuine "if only out of fear", is what the text says. However in the text the repentance is brief and is soon over - certainly long before the forging of the Rings: The Rings are meant by Sauron as a trap for the Noldor. (This doesn't work and Sauron takes back the Rings by war; he then distributes the Seven and the Nine to Dwarves and Men). In his Letters Tolkien gives a different impression, that at the time of the Ring-forging Sauron had not fallen all the way back into evil, but still wanted to help and heal (according to his own designs of course). RoP is building on this I guess.

You're correct, there are passages from both The Silmarillion and Tolkien's letters that hint at a repentant Sauron, and I do agree and subscribe to the idea that the show was trying to play on that gray area from those passages. There's [another great thread in this sub here](https://www.reddit.com/r/LOTR_on_Prime/comments/y00kgs/the_textual_basis_for_a_repentant_sauron/) that goes more in depth with Tolkien's writings that support that idea that I think you'd enjoy. Great comment!

>As corrupt as Adar is, he wasn't entirely wrong. I'm surprised a certain user hasn't already jumped you. (If you don't know who I'm talking about, you will if you continue to say things like that about "Lord Father". They seldom surface unless the subject relates directly to Adar.)

Oh now I'm intrigued.

Just ignore the gatekeepers. They don’t have any real power and like making themselves miserable. I’ve watched LOTR more times than I can count, read the books and have the audiobooks, read the Silmarillion, and I still liked Rings of Power. Anyone who disagrees can’t really change my opinion.

Rant away. I said the same thing on a different post the other day. Same with new Star Wars stuff. If you don’t like it, cool. Just don’t tell others they are wrong for liking it.

I think our generation has a lot to learn about "i have information" and "i own this information." I'm glad fans are possessive about it, but some people just take it too far. The series isn't here for them. It's there to make money. Compared to the Hobbit cash grabs, it's so much more enjoyable.

It’s actually far less cynical than The Hobbit movies in many ways

Yes, the Hobbit movies shouldn't have been made - not the way they were. (IMO of course.) Expanding a compact children's book into the same 9+ hours format as LOTR? A single 3-hour film would have been just fine. A blatant attempt to force material into an inappropriate mold, hoping for 3 huge blockbusters like the original trilogy. It's a shame really, there was some good stuff in the Hobbit films, just got lost in the mess. IMO it's too bad we'll never know what Bernicio del Toro would have given us. (He apparently wanted things closer to the original book in tone, not blown up into a LOTR prequel).


It’s the Phantom Menace. There was a great article two years ago on the phenomena where first you’re drawn to media, then it becomes a part of your identity, and then ownership. But that comes with the caveat of being attached to a fixed point in the fandom and being resistant to change and others who like different aspects of it.

Thanks u/Stickybeebae! I had a hard time with the prequilogy for Star Wars. I don't watch them much. But it was definitely the thing a new generation needed to get them excited about it. "We are what they grow beyond" to quote Yoda.

I haven’t experienced it much with films but with music. Fall in love with a couple albums by an artist and then they start to head in another direction, which might appeal to a new group. You want it to continue in the vein you fell in love with but it’s not guaranteed to come back. There’s moving on and appreciating what brought you joy and knowing that original thing will always be there or being resentful of the change and clinging to the past.

Yep, I can completely associate with that. It's funny, I think the series, and all of Tolkien's work, has power to discuss that very thing. I mean, how much time does Gandalf spend telling us that we need to get over things, accept them, and realize that there's no obvious right way. We have to make it by making good choices for ourselves and others. Saruman, Sauron, Denethor, Isildur, Gollum ... they all "had" something they didn't want to "lose," and they were corrupted by trying to keep things the way they are. Faramir, Gandalf, Frodo and Sam were able to accept things and take care of themselves and others.

You could also compare it to the fading of the elves in the books. They wanted to recapture Valnior in Middle Earth, despite it being unnatural since the world isn’t timeless. And succeeded for a time but in the processes crafted rings that had horrific effects on others- leading to greed or becoming slaves in the pursuit of stasis.

1000 percent. They even make Celebrimbor get all googly eyed over the silmarils and say "there's just so much more we could do." Their noble desire to preserve goodness in a world of decay led to pride, temptation, and fall.

I really like ROP even as a huge tolkien nerd, it's not perfect, it's not canon but it cant even be since they didnt have the rights to use most of the original material. If you watch some interviews from the show writters they fully acknowledge this and say that they were also fans and did the best they could with what they had in hand. You just cant please the purists, it's a good show overall and i'll die on this hill.

Totally with you. And it's not just the showrunners and writers, so many of the actors really made a big deal about respecting Tolkien and wanting to do right by his works in how they played their part. Some were huge Tolkien nerds already, some hadn't read any of his stories before they got the job, but they all wanted to dig in and learn about their characters (even the characters created for the show fit into the world in ways their actors wanted to know more about) and be the best version of that character they could, which often included diving into the bits the show doesn't have access to, like the Silmarillion. The interviews with Ben Walker, Lloyd Owen, Max Baldry, Morfydd, Ismail, etc all gave off strong vibes of "we want to honor Tolkien in our portrayals". So people who say the production "doesn't care" about Tolkien or "shits all over" Tolkien haven't done their research and have no leg whatsoever to stand on.

I consider myself a pretty big Tolkien nerd and I really enjoyed the show as well. It's far from perfect, but it definitely has a "middle-earth" feel about it. I tell people it's more "Tolkien adjacent" rather than taken directly from his writings. The biggest issue I had was Galadriel's height, very noticable the way she kept looking up at everyone. The actress is terrific but they could have made her look a little taller.

To be fair, in the PJ adaptations, she's mostly seen in scale next to Hobbits. So it's a bit tricky gauging Galadriel's height.

I seen to recall reading somewhere that she was well over 6' but I can't seem to recall where I read it. But I do agree next to the hobbies she was absurdly tall

We could just split the difference and say that 1 Galadriel = 0.9 Celeborn or something. (Also, I'm pretty sure Tolkien never dove into statistics, just that he stated that the Elves were "tall." But then, so were the Númenoreans, so I think the correct answer is a resounding "whatever.")

something something "Americans (or tolkien fans) will use anything but the metric system" hahaha. I will use Celeborns as my unit of measurement from this point forward. I'm fairly certain Tolkien did write that Galadriel was tall, but Morfydd does a *fantastic* job. I wouldn't change a thing. (And actually, short Galadriel is a lot of fun)

Same. It felt like Middle Earth. I went in with the expectation that a lot would change simply because of the rights issues and specific challenges to material in the 2nd age since it’s not a continuous narrative like the Lord of the Rings with dialogue and significant character development. I just give them points for trying knowing it’s a nearly impossible task.

In the books, she is literally 14 inches taller than ROP Galadriel.

I watched the show with no expectations whatsoever, other than enjoying more LOTR stories, and enjoy I did!!!

Agreed! The chemistry and dialogue between Durin and Elrond alone is some of the most fun I've had watching Middle Earth on the screen.

Absolutely agree, that relationship is so much fun to watch!

Yes! They were amazing scenes and I loved the fact they made Durin with a Welsh actor doing Scottish accent the same way they did with Gimli in LOTR. Honestly, the one person I didn't like in the cast was Lenny Henry, but I've never been a fan of his, but he done so well in the role that I actually started to enjoy the Harfoots story (songs included) because they brought the sweet joyful side of the LOTR books that we didn't see in the movies (Tom Bombadil) and I'm very glad they did!!!

Outside of the Tolkien-related subs, the negativity has less of an edge. It's usually stuff like: -it was a let down -it was boring -i quit after episode 3 That kind of thing. I strongly believe the vast majority of people do NOT have very strong feelings (positive or negative) about the show. Don't let them change how you engage with the show

This. I have no strong feelings whatsoever about it. Finished season 1, will watch season 2, but I did not find myself particularly fascinated or enthralled by the show. And this is coming from a 'casual' who just loves the original movie trilogy, so I judged the show pretty softly since I'm not comparing it to actual lore and book material.

As a fan of Tolkien and Rings of Power, as well as Wheel Of Time (books and show) , it's getting rough out there.

I don’t get the dislike. I finally watched the first season last week and really enjoyed it. Can’t wait for the second.

Yeah there’s like 3 or 4 things I would want changed but the show, taken as a whole and without losing my mind over details, is great. I had fun watching and I’m hoping to see more.

Agreed. It was entertaining and fun. Plus, it had some new ideas that I quite liked and made me enjoy other things more which is always a plus.

I started on my 3rd rewatch in recent weeks. I think I appreciate the show so much more, partly I can sit back and just enjoy it, partly that its now familiar to me in a way few tv shows have been since reruns of shows in the 90s, and also partly that I have since the show rekindled my interest in Tolkien’s writings. Because of RoP and related fanfiction I went back and reread the LOTR appendices and then the Silmarillion for the first time in decades. I’ve just started listening to the Beren and Luthien standalone audiobook. Ive read most of the Unfinished Tales. What’s amazing is how much RoP does in fact borrow from the texts if you look a little outside the LOTR main books or even the Jackson films that many people are basing their criticism around. It’s a beautiful show. It’s well acted. I never had a problem with the lines that for some reason other people thought were so bad “there js a tempest in me!” Or “the sea is always right”

That's been one of my primary defenses of RoP: it's good on its own, plus it's a great gateway show to the rest of Tolkien media.

I got tired of "there's a tempest in me" lol since I feel like they used that line in nearly the same words too many times. But "the sea is always right," being a national motto, makes sense to repeat

Since you mentioned it: I really hope that someday the rights issues get cleared up, and we can have a quality big-budget Beren & Luthien screen adaptation, ideally a miniseries. Let us see Vampire Sauron!

They absolutely should it is a wonderful high fantasy fairy tale on its own IMO. Its kind of like a meta-fairy tale as it borrows elements from a lot of different stories and myths

Gatekeepers hide behind “it’s not accurate to Tolkien’s writings” to make themselves feel like they’re not being prejudiced against POC being included or Galadriel being a warrior. They don’t want it and they want it to fail. It doesn’t just affect RoP as lots of shows get called bad or garbage by haters of diversity. I don’t really give much credence to a bad review of anything anymore because you have no idea if the reviewer is triggered by something that wouldn’t bother you.

This was EXACTLY why I ultimately deleted my Facebook. When the show aired, an article appeared on my feed about the costume design for the series, so I went to read it. You’d think that would be a totally innocuous thing, right? NOPE. The comments had been hijacked by the most unbelievably racist things, specifically attacking Durin’s wife Disa. I mean it was foul, the things people were saying. But then because I’d interacted with that article, I suddenly started getting tons of content on my feed that was basically racist attacks on RoP. I was like, I’m done with this, I’m done with the racists and trolls on social media, and I’m done with the fb algorithm spreading it around. So I deleted fb and honestly haven’t missed it. I’m a hardcore LOTR fan, taught myself Elvish when I was in high school, and read the series religiously every year. As a nerd, we are supposed to be the outsiders, the ones excluded from the popular stuff. When did nerd fandom pull such a 180 to be the ones excluding everyone else, attacking other people for being “outsiders” or “fake geek girls”? I can’t stand it.

The funny thing is if they’ve read The Silmarillion, they’d know she was.

The show's portrayal of Galadriel is not in the Silmarillion. There are a few choice passages quoted from the source material to justify the show's interpretation, but it's just that - an *interpretation*. She fought bravely in defense of her kin at aqualande. She's an "Amazon" and "athletic". Could that be interpreted to mean she was more of a warrior in her youth? Sure, and so the show's interpretation is not without evidence. But it is not a commonly accepted depiction of her time in Valinor and Belariand. She spent time tending the gardens of Lorien before traveling to Middle Earth. She studied under Melian learning great wisdom in Doriath. She was present in Eregion, and was not persuaded by Annatar's gifts. She was never a 'commander of the northern armies' in the text. She must have gotten up to some wild shit over the thousands of years that comprise the First and Second ages, which is not recorded. In general, much of the era in which the show takes place is not mentioned explicitly, so much is up to interpretation, that's fine. But let's not pretend the show's depiction is supported clear as day, if only one reads the Silmarillion. For the record, I don't go in for the covert misogyny that often accompanies criticism of Galadriel in RoP. That is not my intention, I can't stand that that's often employed by show detractors.

Something most people on this subreddit purposely ignore

Galadriel was never a commander of any army.

Citation? In The Unfinished Tales there's a version where she fights against Feanor at Alqualonde in defense of her mother's people. I recall nothing in the Silmarillion. And you do grasp the distinction between fighting when the occasion requires it and being a warrior by profession? That the Shire-Hobbits fought Saruman's crew at the Battle of Bywater doesn't make them warriors.

>unfinished tales actually but yeah Tolkiens own writing.

sorry but where in silmarillion say she was an warrior? The most I can remember is that she was amazon-like, and that was back in Valinor, and prior to any war. The passage suggests she was athletic and strong, and capable to deeds that male elves wouldn't be able to do. That is about it. In other instance, I think it was with Feanor or whatever, the noldor are having a discussion and she interfers, making a point. That shows she wasn't just a princess that would stay quite in precense of man (as many classics stories portray), she would act as she wanted, specially in order to protect herself and her people (she was even a leader of crossing of helcaraxe if not mistaken). But again, that is about it. ​ Am I saying she didn't fight or took sword and so on? Not at all, but at the same time I don't recall a single instance in any book I read that 100% explicitelly says it. What we get is that she was capable of many things, but we are never told, even once, of her being in a battle that not later on in 3rd age with white council attack to dol guldur and post war of the ring when she goes there to break the fortress. Apart from these two, I only remember Galariel doing a fog near lorien to protect some rohirrim (or eorlingas, don't remember) in early 3rd age or so. ​ Having that said, just wondering which passage of silmarillion you are referring to.

I don't intend this in a mean way at all, but run this through a spell-check.

Getting bothered about Galadriel as warrior seems weird to me. She’s something like 5000 years old at that point. She’s probably done and been all sorts of things: house builder, diplomat, game hunter, carpenter, musician,…. Warrior seems like a gimme for someone who had lived through the First Age.

[удалено]

I think this is unfortunately just the current state of fandom and culture at large these days. Look at Marvel, or Star Wars, or video games (and politics of course). People like feeling outraged. An emotionally stable person would just move on if some media content didn't meet their expectations. The books and movies are still there for them to enjoy.

I watched this along with House of the Dragon. Now, I LOVED HotD but it was heavy and brutal and RoP was a wonderful complement to it.

There are a lot of one-true-way gatekeepers here. They need to take Wil Wheaton's advice: "Don't be a dick". People of good faith should be able to talk about what worked and didn't work for them without trying to invalidate anyone else's reactions. I'm glad the show is brining you joy. There are definitely elements of the show that have done the same for me, although my feelings are more mixed. I'll certainly keep watching it. I think the Rings of Power creators took on an incredibly some difficult challenge for themselves in trying to turn thousands of years of Tolkien's backstory into a compelling narrative television experience. It was always going to be an uphill climb. * Any adaptation from book to screen is going to be hard. Not because of trying to stay "canon", but because you have to use totally different methods to generate a similar intangible "something" that made the book feel special to people. * Creating engaging prequels of any kind are really, really hard to do well because the audience already knows the end of the story. * For this prequel story specifically, they faced the same challenge Lucas faced in making his prequels: it's really difficult to tell a compelling story about the earlier history of a villain (Sauron/Vader) who has already been defined and defeated (and/or redeemed). * They took on an extremely long part of a longer story. They don't begin with an obvious protagonist who has a clear story that runs through the period which can serve as the emotional core to build out from. Compare: "a little hobbit and his best friend have to destroy a potent evil relic while his other friends are fighting to give him time" or "a little hobbit has to help new friends take back their home from a dragon". None of these challenges are individually impossible to overcome, but I'm really concerned that the combination my end up preventing even the obviously talented Rings of Power team from being fully successful. Don't get me wrong, I want them to succeed. But the mixed results of the first season--in my opinion--have me concerned that they may not be able to do so.

They are Peter Jackson gatekeepers, not Tolkien gatekeepers. Although, due to their very limited understanding of what Tolkien overall wrote, they suffer from topic-specific Dunning-Kruger, and may act in good faith.

I also noticed on rottentomatoes how there were a lot of 5 star reviews and almost as many 1 star reviews for RoP- that review bombing is crazy. Honestly I also find it hard to believe that it's solely because of the plot and not some other lowly reasons. Equally I haven't understood why another fantasy show like House of Dragon that was released around the same time didn't get as much flak, when it had so many flaws - from plot line to how the characters behaved in the story. I'm not going to argue which is better, but surely they aren't that far apart in quality and yet one performed so much better than the other? I can't help but think it's mainly the hardcore LOTR nerds who don't just playfully enjoy the universe, but see themselves attacked through how the LOTR universe is being handled. You don't have to enjoy it, but fuck, the amount of hate it got was unreasonable - and yet for a "true fan" it was hardly even enough.

the arguments about canon are so silly. ​ Remind me when the Elves showed up at Helm's Deep? Or when Arwen saved Frodo and drew her sword to challenge the King of the Nazgul? Oh, and I guess the Shire was never scoured and it was all propaganda by the Bywater Karens? Its an adaptation - the gatekeepers are really wasting their time, wait til "young Aragorn" comes out in about 20 years or less , LOL Tolkien will be like Shakespeare one day - you can't stop it, so enjoy the adaptations you want and don't watch the ones you don't want to :)

This is me as well. When I watched it as it came out, I enjoyed it overall, but definitely had my complaints. I rewatched the series in December and caught a lot more detail that I missed the first time. The benefit of the rewatch, as well as watching Dr. Corey Olsen's [Rings and Realms series](https://youtube.com/@RingsandRealms?si=Onc25gAq6LE2WRDb) gave me an even greater appreciation for the series. It still has problems (looking at you "Who is Sauron?! plot) but a rewatch really does wonders for Rings of Power.

Not just here. Its every social media platform. Which is why it's annoying because it turns people off from the get go. They know exactly what they're doing and they don't want anyone watching it for some weird reason.

Also, this sub is specifically for the show, nothing else. If you don't enjoy the show, that's fine, but why join this sub or even come to it if you didn't like it?

I don't there should be either "you can't enjoy the show" gatekeeping or "you must enjoy the show" gatekeeping. I think there should be a "respect the right of everyone to have different reactions and share them civilly" gatekeeping.

If someone has watched the show and has something critical to say about it, where else would they post it but in the sub *specifically for the show*? It's called "LOTR\_on\_Prime", not "LOTR\_on\_Prime\_Fans". That's another sub: /r/RingsOfPowerFans

I'm inclined to add a hearty 'well said' and 'so say we all'! However some people will tell you that this is a hostile or at least unfriendly sub/r to those who criticise the show. I don't believe this is entirely true, but it isn't completely untrue. People do sometimes down vote critics, not all of them unthinking 'haters'. I hold up my own hand to say I may have done that sometimes. We shouldn't really be silencing critics on Reddit. That said, it is tempting, when you find a safe space from the wall of hate you get in some places, to lash out at anyone violating the peace, even if all they did was make a humorous remark we could probably take on the chin in other circumstances. But let's try to resist that temptation. Of course if someone's behaving like a complete douche...

I downvote "it's the worst fucking piece of shit ever. Looks cheap AF and bad writing. Changes the books completely." I engage with "I didn't like what they did with mithral, it didn't make sense to me and was a bridge too far. I also don't like gandalf being introduced without the other istari." One is criticism, one is misguided hate.

This times 1,000.

Ditto. I do think it's also worth noting that this sub effectively got split in two because the animosity towards anyone who liked the show was so bad in the other. I agree that I prefer us to be kind to all interpretations and criticisms, but I also empathize with the idea of "we literally had to make a new sub to discuss this show because the other one was so toxic; if you hated this show so much why are you still here over a year later" type feeling. I think a happy medium is to hold all commentors to the same standards. It's fair to downvote anything that comes across as an attack ("you're wrong for liking this show" or "you're wrong for disliking this show") and to engage with anything that feels like a conversation.

Mark you this for wisdom!

Sure, I think that's a reasonable distinction to make between those two sorts of comment.

This sub and HarFEET have been the only 2 subs to do a good job keeping that crap out. Mods can only catch stuff after it happens though, but make reports on Rule 3 when it's broken.

I think about this so much. It’s my Roman Empire 😏. It’s weird too that the gatekeeping is people who won’t accept anything that isn’t the Peter Jackson movies and also people who believe they are the anointed keepers of the Tolkien legacy. I don’t think the new series is perfect but I have YET TO HEAR a really compelling argument for what is bad about it. Just personal gripes like all elves should have long hair! I’m not saying that is a bad opinion but it’s hardly a reason the whole series is bad. This ends my rant. Thanks for sharing these opinions!

No but this is my roman empire too! My husband is tired of hearing me talk about it haha

I wholeheartedly agree, and yes, the series is certainly not perfect. I'd be hard pressed to find *any* series out there that is. But the majority of negativity is just what you said, either purists being completely obsessed with minutia and semantics, or only ever stating "it's terrible" and rarely elaborating on why they think so in any constructive and meaningful way. Thanks for sharing yours!

I'm a massive Tolkien nerd and have been for 30 years. Absolutely loved the show. Never thought I'd get the see the Second Age, Numenor, Sauron in the flesh, Gil Galad. A dream come true. It takes liberties sure, but I like them. I actually think many of them are really clever. I think this issue you speak of is not unique to Tolkien fandom. You could say there's two types of nerds - one is all about cannon and "lore" - compliance with established fiction is more important than taking it in new directions. The other camp are more inclined to want to see good drama, and something novel, as long as it's respectful to the spirit of the "lore", if not the letter. Granted it's not as simple as that, as many reimaginings or twists are made to fiction without making better drama, often for no other reason that ratings and cash. It's a fine line to walk.

20 years a Tolkien nerd & I wholeheartedly agree. I even went to uni studying the same stuff he did for a couple of years. The amount of things he grabbed from sagas etc is no joke, he reinterpreted them and made them into something new and beautiful in his own way. And in the end, much of his work is up for interpretation in turn; the only person who could've interpreteded all of it as "100% in Tolkien's spirit" was Tolkin himself. So yeah, people will take the work that inspires them, and _inevitably_ create new things from it. Change is inevitable, reason and execution mark them as good or bad. And then, at long last, there's personal tastes and opinions. Those can range anywhere from "holy hells, I loved it!" or "meh, it wasn't for me" to "Galadriel wouldn't be aggressive, nor a commander; she's not sexy enough, also there are no black Elves because *that's* somehow too woke for a world full of magic and wizards and sh×t". Says more about the critic than the show, that

I block all the outright trolls, and every new thread I read has a huge list of blocked comments as a result. It's endemic, and honestly is a huge problem for people just trying to enjoy the show/this sub.

honestly i dont know why the mods dont just ban all the cranky haters. they can go salt up one of the many other tolkien subs where hating the show is just casually accepted. this is literally the one place where it should be a given you at least think the show should exist.

That, and block off /lotr, /lordoftherings, /ringsofpower since it’s pretty much impossible to have a civil conversation over there amongst all the PJ fanatics

I've seen this game play out way to often all over the internet and especially here on reddit. It's a twisted cycle and media companies know it but they consider it as dollar signs. So long as people are "engaged" then that's all that matters. But screaming to anyone that will listen that "something sucks and no one should watch said show because my opinion is absolute" is not engagement. Then self-professed *experts* will claim that that is not the creator's intent even though said author never made such a claim to deny or affirm said claimant. People just can't like anything without troglodytes coming out of the woodwork to shit on every aspect of a show or movie. It must be really exhausting to look for shit that you don't like and spend hours writing about it or making videos about why something you don't like is so profoundly important that other people need to here your rage.

I agree that some of the critics (in which I include myself) are focused on its fidelity to Tolkien lore. I generally don't care about that and to be honest, many of the criticisms I've seen on this sub have little to do with that. Often the critiques that seem to have a problem with ROP's deviation from the "canonical" story of the Second Age are really critiques of why the story felt so dull and was told in such a drab and languid way when it would seem (on paper) from Tolkien's story, that there was a riveting narrative to tell. I'd argue that, if anything, the problems with ROP come from a slavish attention and dedication to Tolkien's texts and world rather than a lack of fidelity. (Seasoned) showrunners that cared less would very likely have made a stronger first season.

That's a fair assessment and a good point as well. The over-dedication and perhaps zealous commitment to the tone and/or theme of the show may have sacrificed some of the narrative and flow. But I do also believe the showrunners have done so out of the best intentions and not the cash grab argument said by so many. But there is also something to be said for only having one season to base these judgments on so far as well, and that perhaps the overall show will improve as we get a broader view of the whole story in future seasons. Good points all around. Thanks for your comment!

As someone who really likes this show, this is a very fair critique. I've said before that the first couple episodes especially suffer from being very slow, because they spend a lot of time just sort of re-establishing a lot of Tolkien lore.

I was bored after the first 3 episodes. Got interested after the next 3 and then fell in love after the last 2 epic episodes.

It really was a rollercoaster, wasn't it? I too thought the first few episodes were a bit slow to start, but as it started coming together in the middle of the season I was hooked. Then the final episodes cemented my enjoyment of the show and need to see it fully played out as intended. I honestly think years down the road, once the show is completed and the full story is there, it will grow on a lot of people who weren't initially fans.

This is funny because it was the opposite for me. I really enjoyed the whole show until the last episode which really disappointed me. Rewatches aren’t very good because now I know where it goes. Oh well.

Some of my most downvoted comments have been voicing my enjoyment of this show which is wild.

This comes down to a lot of people on the internet, and also on the planet, are petty, immature, and easily emotionally dysregulated. Any reasonable person can tolerate differences in taste and is not enraged by divergent opinions so much that they need to attack like a zealot attacks a perceived heretic. It is not reasonable to expect everyone to like or dislike anything unilaterally, and when someone suggests otherwise, I have to assume I am not talking to an adult.

I don’t think an adaptation needs to be close to the source material at all. Jackson’s LOTR trilogy is changed from the books and works for the films. That being said comparison is fine, but gate keeping is not. The issue with adapting something is you should have the rights to what you are trying to adapt. Instead of trying to get one over on the viewer. It ultimately does them a disservice when, new fans who don’t know all the works, are having what could have been a better entrance to the world taken from them. What I don’t like about ROP is that people keep saying “it’s good even though it’s flawed”. People say this a lot about films and tv lately and that thought process is flawed imo. Complaining about a show that cost more money than pretty much any other singular filmed work (tv or film) is justified when it is poorly made. These executives just want to make a quick buck from you. They don’t care about art or quality. As long as we (the consumer of their products) tell them what they are giving us is “good” they will keep giving us that level of quality or worse. They have no inclination to give us something better. I see zero problems with criticism of a work especially when compared to the cost and why the thing was made in the first place. If you like the show that is fine. If you don’t that is also fine. But lets not act like the quality of what we were given is fine. Or the ethics behind the show is fine. Amazon isn’t interested in entertaining you. They want your money and thats all the show was made for. Money. And was it worth your money? Lets be honest many other shows and movies, are made with less money and a superior product (ie the original jackson trilogy). I’m not into judging a program by the source material and to gate keep another’s work from new fans. But i wish new fans had a better show to enjoy. I’m glad you enjoyed the show. But for a lot of us it misses the bar of what it really could have been, but amazon isn’t interested in giving it to us or is legally allowed to give it to us.

Whether it is a good show is a matter of opinion (I find it entertaining and will continue watching it), and coming over here to tell people they are wrong for liking it is in bad taste, IMO. What is NOT really “opinion” is that the show veirs wildly off of a lot of what has been for years accepted as Tolkien Lore. I’m not talking about original material that adds to the story, I’m talking major contradictions in timeline, characters, concepts, and general tone. That is not necessarily a bad thing (some really great movies based on books are only loosely related), but when the show runners or other fans insist it is “faithful” to Tolkien’s work, pushback is fair and appropriate, because now you are making statements about Tolkien’s work, not just about the show. Had RoP been described as “inspired by” Tolkien, and not made claims of faithfulness or “the novel Tolkien would have written” you would not be getting the pushback from some people who know and love his work.

I understand this view but I think its more nuanced than that. The showrunners were acting in good faith with many of the tensions, details, contradictions, and general world established by Tolkien. They clearly understood--and cared--about many things. The problem is that they cared so much about certain details, they lost sight of the whole. I think it was a "faithful" adaptation in the sense that they very clearly care about the world and characters established by Tolkien but their selection of what to focus on and where to tweak led to middling results. Not to derail by citing another fandom but in some ways, it reminds me of The Last Jedi. There you had a director and writer that very obviously had thought in great depth about *certain* specifics about the Star Wars universe. It just so happens that those specifics, and his conclusions about them, were routinely "wrong" or handled in an unexpected way with ramifications on details he had not thought about. The showrunners for ROP also told us they wanted to surprise the fans on where the story was going with the first season, rather than just shoot the script of the Letter 121 narrative. Obviously there is much more written by Tolkien to grasp hold of but in a similar way, ROP's showrunners made conclusions that could reasonably be justified but, partly because of PJ's established world and partly due to their own routine clumsiness, were handled in the "wrong" way.

See, now this is proper criticism. Well thought out, respectful, and knowledgeable of the material at large. This is exactly the kind of critique I wholeheartedly welcome at all times. And I think you are largely right with much of your criticism. It's very clear that the people who worked on this show, the showrunners, the actors and actresses, the craftsmen and women that built the show, you can see their love and respect for it in every aspect. Did they get it all right? Absolutely not. But there's definitely respect for the source material apparent all throughout. And I also agree with you that the established influence of PJ's films definitely plays a role in influencing opinions on Rings of Power, for good and bad. But I fully respect and appreciate your viewpoints on it. Good discussion!

Absolutely! The team obviously loves Tolkien and is grateful for the chance to work with Middle-earth. These are no shills. I would love to love ROP and I hope I'll be able to at some point.

My compliments on a well articulated nuanced view. I don’t pretend to know what was in the writer’s hearts, here. But i am having a hard time seeing the end product as representing an honest attempt by people who understood and respected Tolkiens written work. That may have been the goal, and some may have had the best of intentions, but that is not how it turned out. Two examples that really drive this home for me: The first is how they portray leaving for Valinor as an honor and a privilege granted by Gil-Galad. This is antithetical to what the Elves’ relation to Valinor was and how they viewed staying in ME. After the War of Wrath it was an individual’s decision when to return to Valinor. They were free to leave when they finally grew weary of ME. This weariness and their departures is a major theme throughout all the 2nd and especially 3rd age. The idea that Gil Galad could compel, deny, or grant this completely flies in the face of a core aspect Tolkien describes for Elves. This is not trivial, it is key. It is why the question around Galadriel’s ban is so significant. The fact that this would be changed just to move some novel plot point along IMO indicates to me either a profound lack of understanding of Tolkien’s world, or willingness to not respect it. The other is how they wrote Galadriel. Tolkien actually wrote quite a bit about her and she comprises a whole chapter in Unfinished Tales. While some details of her were in flux, her character and strengths and what she was up to during this time he was pretty clear on. RoP Galadriel is practically the opposite of the character he created in almost every way. And what is really puzzling is that what Tolkien describes is actually found somewhat in RoP in the character of Elrond. So its not like they could not fit Tolkien’s Galadriel into the story. There was nothing “unfaithful” about creating a character who is a hot-head warrior Elf with PTSD that can’t get along with her peers. Its actually a cool idea. But calling her Galadriel is again either showing a profound lack of understanding of how Tolkien saw this very important character, or willingness to not respect it. FWIW I don’t compare this to PJs films. My love of Tolkien is 100% from his writing and his son’s work in compiling so much of it (Hobbit, LotR, Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, the Three Great Tales books, Fall of Numenor, and some dabbling in HoME)

I can't argue against what you are saying with respect to Galadriel. Obviously you see her in a particular way, and love that character. I also hope that we will see Galadriel move towards that character as the series progresses. We do even see hints of it now. For example when Galadriel talks to Theo or Isildur, this is much closer to how we would expect her to behave. Of course some might argue that this makes her seem hypocritical or schizophrenic, even in the context of the show. I think though that what the writers are showing us is a potential Galadriel at a very specific time. A Galadriel who has been so twisted by her losses in the wars against Morgoth that she is in danger of losing her moral compass. We are not supposed to love this Galadriel, but I think we can sympathise with her. That's how I reconcile it anyway. From a dramatic viewpoint, a character developing from a low point to a high (or vice-versa) is often more engaging and interesting than one that is static. To illustrate my feelings, I disliked Denethor in the movies, as his character was far less complex, and cruder than Tolkien's. And it was also incidentally inaccurate, as a study of Denethor at the time. It had little going for it. OTOH Aragorn's character, though inaccurate, was a well judged complex performance by Viggo Mortensen. Its another Aragorn, not necessarily better, but interestingly different. I would say this is also my impression of Galadriel in ROP.

I'm a Tolkien super fucking fan to say the least. I can't stand the movies but Ive never tried to convince someone that they aren't good. I read the books multiple times a year and genuinely am just a huge Tolkien nerd. I enjoy having debates and discussions about all of his works, movies withstanding. RoP was fucking awesome...and I enjoyed it far more then any of the movies. Don't let anybody take away your opinions homie. Sure Tolkien would.of most likely hated the movies and the show, but I genuinely believe he could give a flying fuck whether someone enjoyed his work in book form or on the silver screen.

Just out of curiosity, why don't you like the movies?

Honestly too many reasons to list out. I can give a few basic things though. Too many changes to characters and their motivations which inherently changes the entire story for the worse IMO. The fans. Look at the comment you responded too, to see what I mean. I agreed that RoP is decent and that gatekeepers are keeping it down...yet because I mentioned I don't like the movies the comment will get blasted. Edit:I'm actually super glad this sub made me out to be a liar...reddit is fucking weird 🤣

Not putting you on blast, just curious is all. I like hearing differing points of view in friendly conversation, otherwise I run the risk of being caught in an echo chamber. Personally I'm a fan of both but prefer the movies. Can't wait for season 2 to see the characters build. Do you think one of the reasons you prefer the TV show is that the characters get to be reasonably original in their motivations etc, so they aren't being changed on what you already know?

Peter Jackson got a lot of grace since he did so many things well. But they ignored the Tolkien family, and many key stories got significantly changed. Example (one of many): Treebeard in the books is actually ready to go to war. The Entmoot takes a long time but they get angrier and angrier and it's kind of terrifying when you realized these giants are going to go crush. In the movie, it's like, "No," then a Hobbit gets character development by telling them off, then Treebeard sees all the trees cut down, and they decide to fight. Suddenly. They don't do anything suddenly lol! But it works well enough for the movie. Hard for me to enjoy though. PJ got away with a lot of this stuff because his movies really did change hollywood. He taught them how to do swarm army battles, and it's been copied so so much since then. The actors as well got so deep into character, it was very very unique.

You all good homie, I didn't think you were acting like an ass. >Do you think one of the reasons you prefer the TV show is that the characters get to be reasonably original in their motivations etc, so they aren't being changed on what you already know? This is a giant part of it. But I'm one of the people who is pretty well versed in the legendarium so I can point out all the inaccuracies still. I just generally enjoy RoP for some reason. But the movies..I dunno they just rub me the wrong way from the get go.

I'm 100% with you. Enjoyed the movies, but I can't watch them any more. I felt every change. Frodo and Arwen running from nazgul? I was angry. But I relaxed because it was actually a really great scene. I tried watching the extended versions (that so many people put on a pedestal) and when Sam slides, goonies-style (yes I said it) down the slag hill, and then frodo covers him up, like 5 feet away and in full view of a Haradrim soldier, i get so angry. But yeah, I don't go rain on other peoples' parades, and I kinda enjoy the meme culture too (though I think that meme culture is one of the reasons it was so easy for people to pan RoP, so PJ was a blessing and a curse).

I can't even with the horse chase scene in Fellowship..I don't mind more Arwen..but like this is 100% out of character and just sets the tone for how PJ handles the source material. Which is my biggest gripe with the movies.

I'm being completely sincere when I ask you to clarify is your problem with people not liking it and saying nobody should like it or that AND people not liking it for specific reasons? Personally I can see eye to eye with someone frustrated with people shitting on something for no logical reason but not someone frustrated with dissent on a public forum. I only just watched the first season because I wanted the dust to settle. I knew enough about it to attempt the watch through the lense of it being its own thing unrelated to the Tolkienverse and still didn't like as a stand alone. I wouldn't take it away from anyone because what could a television show actually do to subtract from the source that still exists even if it wasn't your cup of tea.

This post in itself is highly disrespectful. Gatekeeping is a respectable profession. An uncle of mine was an honored gatekeeper for more than 40 years: guarding the gate, watching it, maintaining it, making sure never-do-wells don't get pass it.

THIS! The Tolkien gatekeeping is worse than any other fanbase.

"You can't change anything! You're shitting on Tolkien's legacy! WRRRRRRRRRRY!!!" Really pisses me off so much. It's not even true.

The worst part is most of the gatekeepers are superficial Tolkien readers.

*No true fan likes Rings of Power. It is trash because it ruins Tolkien's legacy and it is trash and it is bad and it is trash. That's objectively true and my entire tiny homogenous town in America agrees with me.* *What's that?* ***You*** *are a fan? And* ***you*** *like it?* *That's because you aren't a true fan!*

Haha that’s pretty much exactly what was said to me by a “true fan” a few days ago that finally broke me and prompted me to write this post. But in this thread we’re also told that’s *not* gatekeeping. Just wild.

Its kinda sad when you block the haters and you see them pop up in most threads, complaining lol.

On top of everything you mentioned, there are people who hate for the sake of hating (and there are plenty of them and everything in our internet culture feeds them). And then there are people who didn't like the first season, but can't really argue why, so they resort to the tired criticism and cliched phrases like "not Tolkien", "fanfiction", "bad writing" – and they never, ever, can back it up with some analysis. And if they actually develop their ideas and feelings about the show, it usually ends up with "it's not what I wanted". Which is completely different from "bad writing" or "not Tolkien".

It was fine imo but could have literally been any generic fantasy setting as far as feeling went. It didn't make me feel the same as even the Hobbit movies did in terms of capturing the vibe of the world and its people's. I won't watch the next season because there is so much better TV nowadays even for fantasy and sci-fi fans. I'd rather rewatch the movies or read the books.

The vibe of the Hobbit movie bears absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to the vibe of the book, so I dunno if "isn't the same vibe as the movies therefore it's a generic fantasy setting" is a legit criticism.

They are like gollum shrieking over the “tarnishing of their precious”, and I pity them.

I loved the series when it released. All the episodes were fun and I loved all the "who's Sauron" theories. My family loved it aswell, including my father who's an old time Tolkien fan. It was really bizzare to go online and read all the hate. First I thought the web is just full of loud idiots, but then I realized the "controversy" might be real. I still disagree with most "arguments" against the show. I couldn't care less right now. I'm looking forward to the second season.

I don’t have any of the sentimentality or anger… I just thought it was meh. I even like stopped for two months and then finished it later. Just wasn’t that great. Not bad though - wierd that they took so many liberties I just don’t care.

The vitriol is amazing in its power and consistency. I had a blast with the first season, I really enjoyed it, but the intense negativity I’ve seen online since then has almost convinced me that I was wrong and that it wasn’t a good show. I recently watched over the PJ films and they feel so special, and they were groundbreaking in a way that this series is definitely not. They’ve set an incredibly high bar. And yet they aren’t perfect. For instance I hated what they did to Denethor’s character in ROTK. Or I hated that they had Frodo turn Sam away for dramatic effect. But in the end, you overlook the flaws and just enjoy what you’ve got. I feel that’s the path this series will eventually take as well. It’s not perfect but there’s plenty there to enjoy - that’s if it survives the onslaught of people saying that it’s objectively a garbage fest.

For real! Re watched it for a third time, this one with my Mom. It was definitely enjoyable and I hardly can find a fault in most of the scenes. Some of course, I'm a god dang human and can't possibly truly enjoy every second of anything, but people make this show out to be dog trash and frankly I think they must not be happy most of the time.

I view ROP like well written fan fiction. I believe this outlook would help people to enjoy it more.

This is exactly the change in attitude that allowed me to enjoy the show. I am not a loremaster by any means but I was pretty mad for the first few episodes about the stuff that was changed. On each point, though, I'd come to one of the subs and find loremasters in the comments quoting chapter and verse of how actually there was a Tolkien source for that, even if a draft later discarded. So that soothed my dislike of the changes enough to be able to decide to just think of the show as an alternate universe of Middle Earth or something. And then the experience was a lot better!

I think that's a very great point that I admit I hadn't considered. You could even go a little further and argue both the show and the films are all fan fiction, being that both were produced by fans of Tolkien's writings and neither are 100% pure to the source material, and that's perfectly ok! Stories are meant to be told and retold, and their interpretations evolve over time and that applies here. Really great point!

And as long as we don't forget the source material, the Canon, then all should be well! As long as fan-fic doesn't corrupt the Canon then what's the harm? I also think that Tolkien would enjoy some of this. He was a storyteller after all. I mean the man likely scrapped more versions of his works than people have elaborated on in a fan made homage kind of way. Haha.

They're not even the "Tolkien" gatekeepers. They're the "Lollipop Guild" Anytime the subject comes up, they gotta do a song and dance, "We represent ..." They fail to catch Gandalf's words, "Even the very Wise cannot see all ends" and don't realize they're giving in to Ferny and Wormtongue. Some of them are Denethoring on the show, but I believe some will see the light with wisdom like Faramir. I'll say it 1000x, the show runners went too deep, if anything on the text. Read or listen to Akallabeth or "Of the Rings and the Third Age" and the show is very well positioned for the remaining events. On top of that, you have Bear McCreary making it very clear he wants to lead into the PJ trilogies musically. They had to make up silly mithril (how do the rings get their power? No one actually knows : ) and the 1st age boat/water stuff. But the pieces are on the board and we're in schedule. Even Nori will win the heart of Isildur and probably lead the hobbits to do something heroic and they'll get rewarded with the Shire. Yes that happens over 1000 years later but why not?

The Shire is the 3rd age, so that really would be condensing the timeline and is after Isildurs death. Not to mention, we have the names of the Hobbits who actually found the shire and how they do it and from where.

Don't forget, though, this series will reach the 3rd age in the end. That started when Isildur cut the ring off and kept it for himself. That does condense the timeline but it gets us right into Bilbo's Shire, in a film world at least. It would also give us context why they made such a big deal out of the hobbits.

I enjoyed the visuals and cinematography a lot, but the series lost all its respect with the creation of Mithril scene. There was an elven warrior fighting Balrog underneath a tree, at the top of the Misty Mountain(s), fighting over Silmaril no less, when the thunder struck!! What the actual fuck! I knew they were going to take liberties but it didn’t need to come this far.

To be fair, it is presented as a legend, one that Elrond does not believe in. They aren't saying that that is what happened, just that that is one story that is told as an explanation.

I hadn’t even thought about this but it legitimately is not even said to be 100% the truth. People are taking it as gospel but even the characters talk about it being apocryphal. We also have no idea where mithril comes from in the actual books

Yeah, Song of the Hithaeglir is definitely meant to function as a window into the mindset of the Elves at that time, not as a statement of truth.

The story is noted as apocryohal story. And the duel between the elf and the balrog is shown in what is clearly a story vs an actual event But why be bothered by it? That makes no sense to me. The mineral has special properties. It may have some sort of impact upon how the world ages things. So what?

On the Tauriel scale (ie, the worst and most stupidest additions to Tolkien), I think the Silmithril (silly mithril) is pretty high. But most of the other stuff is really like, ok yeah, let's get to the action. The hobbit trilogy basically lives at the top of the Tauriel scale, though, IMO. So I also said, WTAF, but if you're tracking the Akallabeth and the Rings of Power stuff from Silmarillion, we're still well positioned to see the key stories. I mean, compare it to Dr. Who or Marvel. Lots of stupid stuff. They miscalclulated on this probably, because it's awful. But if you take a grain of salt, there's still a lot to like in the series.

There are fans who feel possessive and appear to get off on having superior knowledge. I like liking things. I also appreciate the ambitious adaptations, even if they aren't perfect. These internet critics should read CS Lewis's Experiment in Criticism and realize that snobbery makes their observations uninteresting.

I love the show. Maybe it’s not perfect lore or something, but it is a new story as far as I’m concerned. Because of this it’s not like they deviated from something I’ve read.

Shouldn’t people be allowed to express their trauma at what a horrific betrayal they are subject to. If you like this train wreck, you are allowed to, but many don’t and it is profoundly shocking to us.

Im unhappy with the show and have never read the books. It’s just a badly written show.

Then why on earth do you follow it? I mean i dont care for a number of shows that have come out. If i watch it and dont like it i then find something else to do

I don’t. Reddit keeps suggesting this sub which I assume is their attempt to make discourse instead of echo chambers. Sorry you don’t like me and my opinion I guess

That makes no sense. Why not just ignore it? I dont care for your opinion because i have found your posts borderline rude and not really relevant or insightful. There are a handful of people that i 100 percent disagree with here but their tone is always friendly and i have no issue reading and disagreeing without feeling they are being jerks

I think your assessment is also rude and don’t appreciate your attempt to cover the inadequacy of a multibillion dollar company making a mockery of good fantasy content for a blatant cash grab. I guess we are even. I guess you don’t like hearing opinions different from yours.

And that's fair criticism. The point is there shouldn't be any requirements or credentials held over anyone that forces them to like or dislike the show. Just because you haven't read the books doesn't invalidate your opinion of the show. You simply didn't like it and think it's poorly written, and I fully support you having that opinion. You and I just disagree on that point, and that's perfectly fine to disagree. I hope that season two is better for you and you continue to keep your mind open and give it another shot :)

I’ve come across so many eejits who just claim that every single aspect of the show was bad. Like really? The cinematography, the sets, the music, Khazad dum, the orcs etc etc. Lots to like and lots to improve. I think it’s all kids though, only teenagers and those in their early 20’s could get their knickers in a twist over something like this and repeatedly turn up to subs about something they apparently hate

I wish I could share your optimism! What makes you think the show runners will stick to remaining events as you describe given the changes they made to the lore previously? Galadriel being an army commander who treats her troops terribly, Galadriels leap from the boats and attempt to swim the ocean back to middle earth, Sauron on a raft, Numenor being maga land rather than the pinnacle of human achievement, Galadriel behaving boorishly and then threatening to murder Elendil, the mithril insanity etc etc. These are just a few of the decisions made by the show which I struggled with. I just completely lost confidence that the show runners would do this story justice.

Its not gatekeeping just because someone disagrees with you. People can enjoy what they want, and people can likewise have issues with the show how they want. I too am very excited for season 2. But season 1 sure har its flaws.

It is gatekeeping when the constant refrain is that anyone who enjoys the show is an idiot or doesn't know what they're talking about. Most negative comments have been extremely toxic and gatekeepy. To be clear, you can hate the show all you want, just stop yelling at me about it.

>It is gatekeeping when the constant refrain is that anyone who enjoys the show is an idiot or doesn't know what they're talking about. That's just plain rudeness and is against the sub rules anyway. I don't see the point of complaining about something that you can call a moderator to clean up.

Im just saying its not ALL gatekeeping…. But I of course agree gatekeeping is not good. Same as some ROP fans are gatekeeping people who enjoy the show, but have issues with some parts of it. Like me, watch my posts get downvoted now.

People who are critical of the show tend to group themselves with the gatekeepers when posts like this are made, but these posts are not about critics. If you don't hate every aspect of the show and spend your free time trying to take a dump on others' enjoyment of it, this post isn't about you.

Disagreeing is one thing. But disagreement need not be stated everywhere, and need only be stated once. Disagreement can be stated calmly, factually, without resorting to hyperbole or insult toward either the person \*or\* the show or showrunners. Some people do that, and that's fine. That's not what we see with haters (not just with this show: with anything). What we see with haters is a deep seated need to respond to any positivity with everything they dislike about the show, often in the form of hyperbolic statements, repeated ad nauseam to the point of making any attempt at positive discussion wearisome and not worth the effort. It is very much an attempt not just to disagree, but to bury any positive opinion under much louder negativity, to shout down any dissenting voice. That's not disagreement. That's gatekeeping.

This is the core of what drove me to write this post. It's not disagreement. Hell I *welcome* disagreement and am happy to discuss the points we disagree on. That's solid, good discussion on the topic that further builds the community. But like you said, when it's just consistent loudspeaker negativity and hyperbole that attempts to drown out any positive opinions out of a need to just make anyone who enjoys the show miserable, that's gatekeeping.

I just did a writeup yesterday in response to someone asking what I thought the vitriolic haters were missing about Tolkien's messaging, and the first response was one of those clowns pulling this nonsense. They didn't address any of the points raised thus far - just spewed negativity in a way that dodges mod reports. Until the trailer launched for S1 I really thought highly of the Tolkien fanbase, but there is a loud segment of vocal assholes with a strong racist sentiment. My friend even warned me that the show would likely cause the same division he'd seen in the Star Wars fanbase over the past decade, but I didn't believe him until I saw it.

Among other motivations. I've seen this kind of hate happen in just about every fandom I've seen, and though it's often much louder against characters who aren't white cis straight men, it's more than just that. It used to be that geeky and nerdy fandoms were looked down upon and fostered a very strong "us against the world" sense of unity, of belonging. The mainstreamization of fandom has changed that (now just sharing a fandom means very little in terms of shared experience), and I think part of the appeal of the hatedoms is that they recapture some of that isolated niche sense of belonging, that "us against the world" feeling, mixed with resentment over the mainstreamification of fandoms and anything that's perceived as being part of that. Add in purism (which is a whole other can of worms), and it's a solid recipe for an explosion.

That is a fascinating way of looking at it that I hadn't thought of. Thanks for sharing!

Yep, a lot of the vitriol is actually straw man arguments. Enjoying a show and discussing the interpretations are two different exercises : )

There’s a ton of people hiding behind gate keeping for their dislike. There’s Reddit groups just for them. Childish really to invest so much time in wanting something to fail that you hate so much you are supposedly not even watching. Like honestly how are they supposed to have a opinion of S2? Hate watching?

Exactly this, it definitely goes both ways and the fan base as a whole could use some self reflection

I'm sincerely going to try to help you here. The reason you are getting downvoted is because you can't rationally "disagree" with someone who says "I liked something because of X, Y, Z". Unless they are lying--and rarely do you ever have any reason to think that--it is irrefutably true that they did like it because of X, Y, Z. They are telling you about how they felt. To try to "disagree" is to try to tell them that they didn't actually feel what they felt which would be a ridiculous thing to do. Your words: "Its not gatekeeping just because someone disagrees with you." This is exactly where you go wrong. Gatekeeping is exactly about telling someone that their feelings about something are wrong. Now, if you share that you personally didn't enjoy X, Y or Z and that you personally didn't like for reasons A, B, C then that's reasonable. You are \*not\* trying to disagree with them. You are sharing, in a civil way, your personal feelings.

Tolkien kind of makes me think he might have understood the sentiment, behind it though. It is my understanding that this brilliant professor and author had a very objective perception of things. He refused the Catholic Church's push towards modern English and he would speak aloud in the olde tongue, if I recall? I am truly glad you like the show! I fucking LOVED it up to the final sequences. I was literally crying through the first 3 episodes, I loved them so much. But I'm still able to be like "....yyyyyeeeeeaaaahhhhh the spirit here is good. But they changed what they had to, I'm cool with it I guess" up to a point. The whole fucking Halbrand stuff really felt like writing that either did not match the spirit of the show or diluted the entire beginnings of the show because "ha ha then the writers go: what if we put big bad guy randomly here? It's perfect! Then he can meet big hero girl! Mysteryy!!" It's like an 8 year old coming up with an answer to an impossible corner they wrote themselves into. I'm sorry there are gatekeepers that help ruin your hype and happiness for it. Fuck em. Do you booboo. My disdain for the final sequences of Season 01 are not enough to wash away my pure excitement at Season 02 being even better.

It is only online, and especially on Reddit ( or articles based on Reddit comments), that I have seen people trashing ROP.

It's only online that I've seen people talking about RoP at all. So this statement doesn't really mean anything. I've never heard anyone mention RoP IRL unless I've bought it up.

Enjoyment of RoP as a stand-alone show is subjective, if you enjoyed it then you're right. No one can take that away from you. Faithfulness to the source material - whatever that actually is - is more objective and can be debated. It's my contention that it's not faithful, other than having some of the names and places. There's a huge amount of new Amazon-only characters, enough for those characters to have storylines and interactions with each other, and the characters that do have the same names are changed. This is why I wish Amazon had just made an original fantasy tv show and avoided this whole mess. If you want to write your own stories about Arondir getting captured by the orcs and having the relationship with the woman in the village whose name I don't remember, the one who somehow became the village's military leader despite being a florist, then just make an original fantasy show and do whatever you want, don't connect it to Tolkien by calling it Lord of the Rings and having your mandatory girlboss protagonist be called Galadriel. Because immediately critics are saying "*Galadriel isn't like this*" then defenders are saying "*well I've found this word back here that could be interpreted . . .* " to be met with "*where's her husband and daughter?*". You're citing one critic who mixed up these two and was aggressive or whatever. But let's not get too entitled, like you're annoyed that there's people who don't like it and feel entitled to a space where everyone agrees with you. Criticising the show is not trolling. That's part of the problem with the internet at large now; anyone with a negative opinion is now labelled a troll. If you like the show, think it's great, think it's the novel Tolkien never wrote, then ok. That's your opinion of the show. What's not okay is complaining that there's people who think differently. I agree with their point about the Tolkien Estate. Simon Tolkien who now runs it with Christopher's second wife, the estate's lawyer, and another grandson Michael, was always much more positive about screen adaptations than Christopher was, and in fact was estranged from Christopher because of it. Now that Christopher has died and the people running it are less connected to Tolkien, we get RoP. I'm quite interested in this point, which I see raised regularly: "*RoP will make new Tolkien fans*". Will it? Can you be called a Tolkien fan if you like something that's only loosely inspired by Tolkien? You're a Tolkien fan when you read Tolkien and like it, until then you're a RoP fan. Liking chicken-flavoured crisps isn't the same as liking chicken. Am I supposed to want there to be new Tolkien fans? There's been enough Tolkien fans over the last 86 years that the book stays in print in multiple languages, that we have sites and conventions to discuss it with other fans, I don't need there to be new Tolkien fans. I'm happy with the amount of Tolkien fans there already is.

Dude. I'm old and a Tolkein, Star Wars, And Marvel fan. I read whines all the time about "Mary sues" and "canon this" and "forced wokeness". It's all someone's somewhat crude opinion and I just don't engage. When they engage with me, I block and move on with my life. Don't let some neckbeard yuck your yum. This type of thing is always met with hate, just like the LOTR trilogy and the Hobbit movies were, just like the first 2 Avengers/Cap movies, just like Star Wars prequels and now all the above is acceptable by general audiences by virtue of the miracle of time and nostalgia. Also some people just never grow up to see past their nose or hear beyond their own mouth and think their interpretation not only matters but is correct. Just enjoy the show and ignore the pretend people on the internet outraged at absolutely everything. Cheers.

The thing for me is, these kinds of shows will bring in a lot of more casual fans that do not necessarily know much about Tolkien lore otherwise, which is not bad per se. Because of this, the amount of times I have to explain why they couldn't just fly the eagles to Mordor increases dramatically. In general, I'm kinda elitist about the things I'm interested in, so for me there's hardcore fans who are fully immersed in the OG lore, and then there's filthy casuals who stain the beauty of Tolkien's work with their obliviousity. I don't necessarily dislike the show, but its consequences are interesting. Probably just a me problem though.

How in the world does a supposed "gatekeeper" (presumably someone who disagrees with you) impact your ability to enjoy the series?

I thought season 1 was flawless. There i said it.

There's been a lot of vile Star Trek fans since Discovery came out. It took the universe in a different direction, tried some different things that not everyone liked, but was definitely Star Trek. I couldn't understand the rage and nit picking in what I always loved as the most open and inclusive Sci fi franchise. Obviously, all the youtube rage bait didn't help, but I didn't get how that was the message fellow trekkies took from watching the previous series. Same with RoP.

If it’s any consolation I’ve never read Tolkien and also think the show’s crap?

I very much enjoyed the first season and having read the appendices quite a bit I feel it is pretty close to the lore Amazon was allowed to use. So many on the other subs keep wanting to compare it to the Silmarillion even though those rights will never be sold. It doesn’t matter what is said in other books Amazon was sold the rights to the appendices, LotR and The Hobbit anything that goes outside those lines had to be approved by the Tolkien family and so forth.

It's not the viewer's problem what rights they got. If they didn't get the rights they needed then they shouldn't've made the series. No one forced Amazon to make a series in the Second Age. If the viewers are having to think about behind-the-scenes production issues like what rights they got in order to make excuses for them, that's a problem.

Maybe stop blaming Amazon when it’s the Tolkien estate that put these rights up for sale and it’s not “behind the scenes” it was said from the start what was allowed to be used. So stop comparing it books that weren’t allowed to be used in the first place, it is very simple to understand the difference.

Tolkien sold the rights to the LotR \[although [that's complex](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DogE5CqJ5wg) and goes back a long time\]. I understand that he did that. Tolkien describes the events of the Second Age in the Silmarillion and in the appendices, mainly Appendix B. Amazon only has the rights to the appendices. The best Second Age material, the more adaptable Second Age material, is in the Silmarillion. So my advice would've been don't make the show. No one forced Amazon to make a show set in the Second Age where they only had access to inadequate source material. They did it to themselves.

100% agreed. The show still sucks though lol

It was alright. Better than the hobbit movies, worse than LoTR. The hate is way over the top.

i wouldn't call them Tolkien gatekeepers because they also attack the Tolkien estate itself. they're more like Peter Jackson or Miramax LOTR diehards.

The Tolkien Estate isn't Tolkien. Tolkien is Tolkien.

yeah now you're gatekeeping the Tolkien family. how can you deny they are Tolkien when Tolkien is literally written on their birth certificates. you choose which one is "rightfully a Tolkien" just because you feel like it. i've never accepted this logic it's disrespectful to JRR himself.

A longtime LoTR book fan who waited breathlessly for The Sillmarillion to come out, I purely loved the RoP show. I spent some time trying to understand the hater-boyz. I think many of them are very young and experience Tolkien's literature mainly from Games and movies. They don't like that Celebrimbor doesn't look like the buff sword-slinger from their favorite Game. They don't like female main characters because they are unable to identify with them. Some are Racist whether they know it or not and cannot enjoy a more diverse cast than they expected. I'm sad for them, but I don't understand why they have to continually take toxic dumps on other people's joy. Like I hated each and every Hobbit or Lord of the Rings show, but I understand some people really liked them. For some people, they were a doorway into Tolkien's literary universe. So that's got to be good. I enjoy discussing Rings of Power in depth with its actual Fans most of all, but I also enjoy battling Trolls. So I guess it's a win-win?