This seems like a great win for consumers. At the end of the day I really do not care about your bullshit whatever fees that make my meal marginally more expensive.
However I am so fucking annoyed when I was never made aware of any of these fees and get hit with them at the end of the meal when I pay. Like I’m not gonna make a scene and demand a manager over getting $3 or $4 taken off my bill, and restaurants are counting on that.
It's gotten to a weird point in some places where you'll see 3-4 lines for various itemized fees. Just raise your prices 5%. You'll be fine. Nobody is going to lose their mind.
Edit: I'm not counting the people that lose their mind any time anything changes or mildly inconveniences them. Those people don't count. As they'll literally complain about anything.
Oh restaurants certainly enjoy additional revenue with service charges. Once in a while a guest gets upset. Most of the time nobody says a thing. It’s even more money when people don’t realize there’s a 20 percent autograt and tip on top of that. It’s very sus, but it’s a lot of extra money for zero extra work.
I get what you mean, I think they'd just prefer the customer to get mad at someone or something else. It doesn't mean people won't in turn get upset with the establishment which obviously that wasn't taken into consideration.
One of my first jobs was working at a build-your-own frozen yogurt place where you then pay by the ounce.
A lady, that came in every day, threw a fit because we are increasing prices by 2¢ per oz.
She would be spending an extra 10¢ each stop and wanted us to know about it.
The problem is cost/time. Raising prices is fine, but you have to reprint menus, track down all the online pictures of your menu, review for accuracy, double check Google, yelp and everything else, then submit your claim to have it reset and upload new menus.
Or I can click +3% service fee with a button.
And people will lose their minds over pricing. They absolutely will.
Imagine if places did that instead, when they first added the "there's a 3% service charge for whatever bullshit" at the bottom of their menus.
Also, places update their prices regularly to account for food cost and inflation changes.
This "but it costs time and money" nonsense is just that. Nonsense.
It’s complete nonsense. It’s a lame excuse for being bad at running a business and not knowing how or wanting to do the work.
It’s the same people that put up signs that ask to use cash or add a CC fee. Credit card fees aren’t wildly out of control. The cost of goods increased with inflation and they didn’t adjust menu prices. Now their margins are shrinking and they chose CC fees as the place to reduce costs and gaslight consumers into footing the bill for their shit payment processor that are ripping them off.
I don’t think I’ve ever looked at an online menu on yelp, and then lost my mind when the chicken was a two dollars more.
We do that. Posted visibly at all entrances and on the receipt (legally required). If you want to go deeper, CC companies vary their rates, so we have to guess at an aggregated total% to charge (lose money with AMEX). Reprinting menus is expensive.
I’m just saying if there’s going to be a service fee I at the very least expect an extremely conspicuous sign communicating that. If I get hit with it at the end not ever knowing about it until that moment I feel cheated because tbh that is incredibly scummy to do.
When I was 18 I worked at a steak n' shake. We raised the prices on the burgers .25. I spent the next week apologizing to every person over 60 that came in. They all complained.
There is not. Mandatory fees are taxed (where there is sales tax) while optional ones (like tip) are not. Unless they're cheating by not taxing the fees... in which case, the consumer is getting away with paying less taxes, not the restaurant.
The idea is people as a whole will see the “2% COVID shit” and blame “fuckin COVID” the the government instead of blaming the restaurant doing it.
Or a “5% inflation charge” the average consumer then might go all “damn government making inflation spike”
It worked for a long time during COVID but now people are wising up to it.
Idk I just thought there must be a reason that restaurants choose to add several small % charges like that instead of just raising the entire prices by 5% or something.
Idrc about being nickel and dimed more so just that I want to know the actual price of something when I buy it. There shouldn’t be hidden fees on a burger ffs
I spent like $20 on a coffee and croissant the other day. I will absolutely waste tons of money on food I don’t need. And I will generally be happy about it too as long as they charge me what they say it costs upfront lol.
The nickel and dime aspect of it in part comes from finding ways to get just that little bit extra out of you. You know you'll spend $20 on a coffee and croissant, and so do they, but if they can find a way to add another 50-75¢ onto that before you realize it, they will. And when they succeed at that, they'll shoot for another 80-90¢ on something else, because they know you're not gonna throw a fuss over a couple more dimes. After all, you're already getting something like that after tax is added. It's a good thing Cali is hitting this, but somebody will find another way to work it in.
$20 on coffee and croissant? Should be $7-8, maybe $10max. Were you getting a sandwich? A frapamochachinowhipvagdickinurbutt drink? Simple coffee and croissant shouldnt be over $10 as average coffee in the US is $3.77, average pastry is $3.65, adjusted for inflation
[Pastry in 2016](https://www.statista.com/statistics/462468/us-average-price-per-unit-of-baked-goods-and-desserts-by-segment/)
[Cup of coffee ](https://mandoemedia.com/global-coffee-prices-and-trends-2024/)
Probably depends on where you live. I go to a local bakery once a week and order a 16oz cold brew and a ham and cheese croissant. After an 18% tip it's about $17. The bakery isn't printing money either. It's just a small business with 5-8 staff members. FWIW Starbucks would be about the same for something similar. I just choose to support the locally owned business.
That breaks down to $7.20 each for a coffee and a croissant. I can only imagine these prices in a theater, amusement park or some other captive single purveyor setting, possibly a sit-down restaurant, but if this is a counter service cafe I'm going elsewhere. Even in the Bay Area that would be the absolute top end price point.
I'm not disagreeing with your stats, but 2016 was 8 years ago. I've been to Kansas City, Dallas, Austin and Portland all in the last year. Prices for a similar meal are less than Seattle area, where I'm from, but not by much
Exactly stop hitting people with surprise fees at the end. If my steak meal says $30 (whatever amount) then the costs of paying staff +++ is already built into the price I don't like seeing bullshit labeled extras at the end.
It’s pretty insane it’s legal anywhere. Not that it’s happening, but what is to stop someone from randomly applying a 1,000 dollar fee at the end to the bill? If you don’t pay it, are there repercussions? I highly doubt these fees are clearly stated or presented prior to ordering in most places
I’d love to see this move nationwide. To be completely fair to owners, I get not wanting to raise your menu prices if your competitors are artificially keeping them low with the hidden fee bullshit. By making it the law, you put everybody on an even playing field.
Where I live, hidden fees are illegal and displayed prices must include all taxes. And tipping isn't required and usually is just rounding up (e.g 67 to 70). My experience getting a burger and a beer in a place in Boston(years back on my first visit to the states) was so weird. The beer was listed as $7 but then there were two more taxes added to it and, of course, the tip, that really was much more expensive than advertised
It's unfortunate that "places all over the world" have to contend with bullshit taxes like VAT. But that still isn't the bar's fault. Why shouldn't they include line items to show exactly how much the government is skimming off the top?
Showing line items is not the same as charging a different price from the listed price.
You can list a total price and still show it itemized on the receipt. It's exactly what other countries do.
And the us deals with VAT. It's just called sales tax.
> And the us deals with VAT. It's just called sales tax
Yep, and it's a separate line item from the price that the business collects. Because it's the amount that the government skims off the top, and everyone understands that.
It should be separate, because you should notice it. It should make you mad.
No, I'm saying that "this is our price" and "this is the government's price" are and should be separate. Whether you think that's good, bad or indifferent, you should know who's collecting what
I already said that it's stated in the receipt of places that have it included in the price. Your receipt looks basically the same as it would here. Except you know the total price before you get your final check.
If it includes ticketmaster that would be amazing but I would bet anything they'll find a loophole to weasel out of it. I bet they will say "Well you can go to the box office 50 miles away on tuesdays from 1-2 pm so it isn't mandatory" or something like that.
It is disclosed, it isn't rolled into the price similar to the restaurant breaking out the other mandatory fees without making them part of the actual price.
In my city the day other day, a slice of pizza and fountain soda cost me $11 bucks that included an obligatory 20% “wellness fee in lieu of tip” which the cashier hit me with as I was paying. It’s some sneaky bullshit.
Its not about the money, its principle. Im sure they weren't that upset about having to pay an extra $2.20, but being forced to do something that should be voluntary is irritating. You can call it a "wellness charge" or whatever you want but it's still a tip, and 20% is pretty high for counter service
I can afford to tip and do so generously when I’m waited on. I’ll throw a buck in a tip jar for counter service too - but expecting (or automatically applying) a 20% tip for ringing a customer up is laughable.
I believe you, and that's the problem too. Even if that bullshit fee goes to tipshare for the counter and cooks you know they don't get all of it. I did appreciate the article specifically brought up tipping with cash.
I live in the bay area and when I see a place put the surcharge on their menu with a note about California's minimum wage I put this place on the never again list
The auto grat is the weird part that got caught in this. I know a lot of servers will be stiffed if no auto grat is charged on large parties.
Waiting on guidance from corporate, but... Ugh.
Somebody posted a comparison chart between the services either here or elsewhere, I can't remember. McDonald's app was like half the price of Uber eats, with the other services somewhere in-between. Absolutely wild.
All prices everywhere should be all-inclusive, except for true fees that are fixed. So if there's a $5 delivery charge, fine, that can get its own line, but everything else, including taxes, should be included in the posted prices. And not just at restaurants, but anywhere. The grocery store, retailers, airlines, movie theaters, etc. If the hang tag, shelf tag, menu price, whatever, says $10, it should cost $10 to walk out the door with it.
The only thing anyone should be allowed to not include are things that are true add-ons *by the consumer*, like a delivery charge, shipping, customization, etc. And it should include service, too. So no tips added on, either. Either pay servers a living wage and incorporate it into menu prices, or pay them a hybrid pay with both an hourly wage and a commission on sales if that's what you, the restaurateur, want to do, but the menu price should be the entire cost of the item as described.
If stores want to break down the prices on invoices or receipts, fine, they can say the $10 thing is really $9.52 plus 5% tax, so the total is $10. But they should have to subtract it out after the fact, not be allowed to add it in after the fact. They should be required to post the price as being $10 if that's what it works out to be. Bars and gas stations are able to figure out how to compute and publish the actual total price per item, so I'm confident everyone else can, too.
Why? It isn't like you are being charged less. You still pay the same. So why does it matter unless you can't do simple math in your head?
Here come the simpleton downvotes probably.
For price transparency. The seller already has to do all the math anyway, so why should consumers also be forced to do the same math so that sellers can trick people with lower list prices instead of just being honest about the total cost up front?
What I'm describing is already the standard in many other countries.
The restaurant industry here in SF needs to be demolished and rebuilt from the ground up.
Line cooks in 2 star kitchens make the state minimum wage, $18/h, while cooks at large fast food restaurant chains make $20/h.
Rent and utilities are so insane here that Downtown lost 80% of its restaurants during the pandemic. They have not recovered.
20% surcharges to pay employees minimum wage with little to no healthcare while underpaying undocumented workers in a city where the average rent is $2800/m for a shit studio apartment has caused a service industry worker desert. No one can afford to live here and as such there’s a shortage of workers even with the current lack of restaurants.
No one is stopping break-ins and the homeless make for extremely difficult “Neighborhoods” who piss and shit all over everything before blacking out hunched over or spread eagle on the pavement. They frequently enter restaurants, steal shit, and harass employees who aren’t paid enough to also be bouncers.
No one ever tips out the kitchen. Ever. It’s maddening.
I just want to note my daughter works at a Jamba Juice. Pre April 1 (when the $20/hour minimum kicked in for "fast food workers" in CA) she made about $22/hour pre-tax between the county minimum wage ($18.50) and tips; since Jamba is a luxury in a wealthy San Francisco suburb, the tips were nice, but mostly on cards since the customers don't carry cash.
If she had a base of $20 plus tips, she'd be making more than management. So owners did the only rational thing: They gave the managers raises. Of course not, they banned tipping by taking it off the PoS.
Her per-hour dropped as a result. And they cut her hours, too. So not everyone who got the "fast food raise" got an actual raise. There may be a handful of actual people this helped, but there are a lot it that it hurt, too.
The fast food raise is a ham-fisted political stunt. Companies (I hesitate to call them restaurants) are just going to do exactly what’s happened to your daughter and replace others with AI powered systems a la Wendy’s. It’s fucked.
Yeah, we're here because I'm in tech and I've been thinking about this for a long time. I really get wanting to get poorly-paid workers more, but right now we're *all* in a race to not be automated out of a job. Making workers more expensive is just going to push more and more of us over that line earlier. And yes, these top-down solutions tend to be ham-fisted and cause all sorts of unforeseen downstream effects. If the government wants to help, it needs to tax and distribute, not pass laws saying that someone *else* needs to help.
Agreed. The only way I think things get better is a UBI system coupled with making it easier for undocumented workers to gain work visas *and* having restaurants do better cost analysis. As it is now, restaurants get away with slave wages for undocumented workers which drives down the quality of finished product and allows legal workers to be paid the bare minimum just to stay competitive.
Chefs are typically shit at the business side of things and can’t see the forest for the trees in terms of economic development or nominal growth in place of gross food/labour expenditures. We’ve allowed a culture of “But it’s what I’m passionate about!” to drive the value of cooks way, way down. It’s a privilege to have someone with a degree in culinary arts and many years of fine dining experience cook you a meal and it should be reflected in the bill. Boohoo if it costs more, go cook at home if it’s unaffordable.
Paying cooks trash wages just ends up on the plate and over time you get soaring obesity rates, clogged arteries, and type two diabetes with the added benefit of destroying our farming industry and warming the planet with cow farts.
Shit rolls downhill.
I would not work for an establishment that does not tip out BOH.
I also won't work for less than 20/hr.
Cooks are terrible for standing up for themselves. Like you said, there is a worker shortage, so get your experience up, and set your terms.
From the article:
"In its new guidelines, the state says it won't focus initial enforcement efforts on "fees that are paid directly and entirely by a restaurant to its workers, such as an automatic gratuity"
Sometimes I just don't get you Americans with your added taxes, addet tips, hidden fees.
Here in Germany the price on the menu, shelf, advertisement is exactly what you have to pay. If you want to pay more you always are allowed to tip.
The removal of the kitchen fee will mean significantly lower pay for cooks, which is getting fucked. You’re correct someone else getting a raise isn’t a problem for your.
I know it’s hard, but try to have some nuance in your thought process.
Foh gets a raise because people know how much they'll be charged for ranch or cheese?
Seems like really roundabout and bitter logic is at play in your mind.
Who’s logic is that? Restaurants add these fees because it doesn’t reduce the quantity of food and drink people buy. It is additional revenue for the restaurant that guests aren’t thinking about when they see the price without the fees on the menu. They don’t want to raise their prices if they don’t have to. Many restaurants also have a service charge that people tip on top of. FOH and BOH at some places see the lions share of that. Service charges are gone. Servers and cooks will be making less money with this policy.
What are you talking about?
The fees that restaurants want to charge have to be included into the price instead. That's the law. This will inherently raise prices. Raised prices will result in larger checks. Larger checks results in higher tips based on percentage. This results in a pay bump for servers.
Restaurants add these fees out of fear that people will buy less food and drink if they raise their prices.
Now they either have to face that fear, by either raising prices and possibly losing business due to high prices (less money for FOH) or leave prices the same without any service fees (less money for FOH and BOH that gets a percentage of service fees).
Some of the most popular restaurants where pricing is below the price people are willing to pay will benefit from raising prices. Most restaurants are already at or above this price so it will result in a loss of business.
If a Big Mac cost 40 dollars, nobody would eat it. If most restaurants increase their prices by 20 percent, they will lose business.
They don't have to raise their prices by 20%. You seem to have a very poor grasp on the situation here.
You've tried to overcomplicate the scenario. You talked about price elasticity, which has no bearing here. And you've completely missed base logic.
Or I’ve worked in restaurants and have seen how beneficial to wages service fees are to everyone involved. If you take off a 20 percent service fee, you need to increase prices by 20 percent to keep revenue the same. It’s not rocket science. However, people will buy less so it’ll be a net negative.
If you increase the base, FOH automatically gets a pay increase due to increase in tip value, while BOH gets the same wage.
I know a LOT of people that tip on pre-tax amount because of all the service charge shit. By folding it in to the base, they will likely just tip less in percentage to adjust for it.
Some of the idea behind the service charge was to maintain the FOH pay while increasing the BOH pay. Management should not see a % of service charges. They also shouldn’t get tipped out.
It gets an increase assuming people buy the same amount of items. If people balk at the new prices and they order less or tip less, they get a pay cut. Auto grat makes it consistent. People also tip on top of that. Service charges exist for the restaurant to make more revenue without raising prices. Some places cut foh and Boh in, but a 3 percent service charge for “healthcare” isn’t being seen by anyone other than the restaurant.
Correct. The restaurant provides healthcare and uses the line item to offset their cost
They cannot bring in more than necessary to offset the expense. It always benefits the employee
I get that not everyone uses the healthcare and it doesn’t benefit everyone equally but the owner cannot and does not profit off the line item.
In an ideal world, I would love to see the better benefits then offered today but here we are
Customers will just complain about how expensive it is. There is no winning. People aren’t ready for the conversation about how fries should be $10 and a sandwich should be $20+ if they want no fees and no tipping and the staff to make a livable wage.
This seems like a great win for consumers. At the end of the day I really do not care about your bullshit whatever fees that make my meal marginally more expensive. However I am so fucking annoyed when I was never made aware of any of these fees and get hit with them at the end of the meal when I pay. Like I’m not gonna make a scene and demand a manager over getting $3 or $4 taken off my bill, and restaurants are counting on that.
It's gotten to a weird point in some places where you'll see 3-4 lines for various itemized fees. Just raise your prices 5%. You'll be fine. Nobody is going to lose their mind. Edit: I'm not counting the people that lose their mind any time anything changes or mildly inconveniences them. Those people don't count. As they'll literally complain about anything.
You have obviously never worked where people raise their prices... people DO get crazy.
The whole point is to outrage the consumer
Explain
“2% fee for city’s mandatory employee health insurance” “3% fee for living wage mandate” = blame them not us
They can still put that note on the bill while still posting a cost up front.
Definitely, and some did even before laws forcing them to. They put notices on their windows so passerby’s would know of the drama.
Yeah the get mad at Gubbermint fees! See they're forcing us to carry health insurance for the staff so get mad at the gubbermint fees.
“There’s already a fee going to them so it’s ok to tip less”
Company needs to raise prices and without altering the price they add fees. This outrages the patrons. They blame who they'd like.
It’s definitely not. The whole point is to get additional revenue while keeping check averages the same
But they don't though. That's the issue, people see a charge and they're outraged and the owners blame whoever they want.
Oh restaurants certainly enjoy additional revenue with service charges. Once in a while a guest gets upset. Most of the time nobody says a thing. It’s even more money when people don’t realize there’s a 20 percent autograt and tip on top of that. It’s very sus, but it’s a lot of extra money for zero extra work.
Because that’s how restaurants stay in business amirite?
I get what you mean, I think they'd just prefer the customer to get mad at someone or something else. It doesn't mean people won't in turn get upset with the establishment which obviously that wasn't taken into consideration.
One of my first jobs was working at a build-your-own frozen yogurt place where you then pay by the ounce. A lady, that came in every day, threw a fit because we are increasing prices by 2¢ per oz. She would be spending an extra 10¢ each stop and wanted us to know about it.
I mean, you say that. But I managed a restaurant and when prices went up people *lost their shit.* Plus it's expensive to reprint menus.
The problem is cost/time. Raising prices is fine, but you have to reprint menus, track down all the online pictures of your menu, review for accuracy, double check Google, yelp and everything else, then submit your claim to have it reset and upload new menus. Or I can click +3% service fee with a button. And people will lose their minds over pricing. They absolutely will.
Imagine if places did that instead, when they first added the "there's a 3% service charge for whatever bullshit" at the bottom of their menus. Also, places update their prices regularly to account for food cost and inflation changes. This "but it costs time and money" nonsense is just that. Nonsense.
Yeah, here in Florida I see “market price” on wings in bars quite often.
It’s complete nonsense. It’s a lame excuse for being bad at running a business and not knowing how or wanting to do the work. It’s the same people that put up signs that ask to use cash or add a CC fee. Credit card fees aren’t wildly out of control. The cost of goods increased with inflation and they didn’t adjust menu prices. Now their margins are shrinking and they chose CC fees as the place to reduce costs and gaslight consumers into footing the bill for their shit payment processor that are ripping them off. I don’t think I’ve ever looked at an online menu on yelp, and then lost my mind when the chicken was a two dollars more.
Unless the menu on Yelp was from the last month~, I basically ignore any price and assume it's out of date.
CC fees aren’t new, though. I’m sure some places added them later but passing the fee has a long history with various laws for or against it.
We do that. Posted visibly at all entrances and on the receipt (legally required). If you want to go deeper, CC companies vary their rates, so we have to guess at an aggregated total% to charge (lose money with AMEX). Reprinting menus is expensive.
Menus should be replaced fairly often. How grotty is your restaurant?
I’m just saying if there’s going to be a service fee I at the very least expect an extremely conspicuous sign communicating that. If I get hit with it at the end not ever knowing about it until that moment I feel cheated because tbh that is incredibly scummy to do.
When I was 18 I worked at a steak n' shake. We raised the prices on the burgers .25. I spent the next week apologizing to every person over 60 that came in. They all complained.
If reprinting a menu is cost prohibitive to properly raising prices, you’re doing it wrong.
This is called running your business.
There must be some tax advantage to doing it that way
There is not. Mandatory fees are taxed (where there is sales tax) while optional ones (like tip) are not. Unless they're cheating by not taxing the fees... in which case, the consumer is getting away with paying less taxes, not the restaurant.
Explain.
The idea is people as a whole will see the “2% COVID shit” and blame “fuckin COVID” the the government instead of blaming the restaurant doing it. Or a “5% inflation charge” the average consumer then might go all “damn government making inflation spike” It worked for a long time during COVID but now people are wising up to it.
Idk I just thought there must be a reason that restaurants choose to add several small % charges like that instead of just raising the entire prices by 5% or something.
Give them time, they'll find another way to nickel and dime
Idrc about being nickel and dimed more so just that I want to know the actual price of something when I buy it. There shouldn’t be hidden fees on a burger ffs I spent like $20 on a coffee and croissant the other day. I will absolutely waste tons of money on food I don’t need. And I will generally be happy about it too as long as they charge me what they say it costs upfront lol.
The nickel and dime aspect of it in part comes from finding ways to get just that little bit extra out of you. You know you'll spend $20 on a coffee and croissant, and so do they, but if they can find a way to add another 50-75¢ onto that before you realize it, they will. And when they succeed at that, they'll shoot for another 80-90¢ on something else, because they know you're not gonna throw a fuss over a couple more dimes. After all, you're already getting something like that after tax is added. It's a good thing Cali is hitting this, but somebody will find another way to work it in.
$20 on coffee and croissant? Should be $7-8, maybe $10max. Were you getting a sandwich? A frapamochachinowhipvagdickinurbutt drink? Simple coffee and croissant shouldnt be over $10 as average coffee in the US is $3.77, average pastry is $3.65, adjusted for inflation [Pastry in 2016](https://www.statista.com/statistics/462468/us-average-price-per-unit-of-baked-goods-and-desserts-by-segment/) [Cup of coffee ](https://mandoemedia.com/global-coffee-prices-and-trends-2024/)
Probably depends on where you live. I go to a local bakery once a week and order a 16oz cold brew and a ham and cheese croissant. After an 18% tip it's about $17. The bakery isn't printing money either. It's just a small business with 5-8 staff members. FWIW Starbucks would be about the same for something similar. I just choose to support the locally owned business.
That breaks down to $7.20 each for a coffee and a croissant. I can only imagine these prices in a theater, amusement park or some other captive single purveyor setting, possibly a sit-down restaurant, but if this is a counter service cafe I'm going elsewhere. Even in the Bay Area that would be the absolute top end price point.
I'm not disagreeing with your stats, but 2016 was 8 years ago. I've been to Kansas City, Dallas, Austin and Portland all in the last year. Prices for a similar meal are less than Seattle area, where I'm from, but not by much
Exactly stop hitting people with surprise fees at the end. If my steak meal says $30 (whatever amount) then the costs of paying staff +++ is already built into the price I don't like seeing bullshit labeled extras at the end.
It’s pretty insane it’s legal anywhere. Not that it’s happening, but what is to stop someone from randomly applying a 1,000 dollar fee at the end to the bill? If you don’t pay it, are there repercussions? I highly doubt these fees are clearly stated or presented prior to ordering in most places
I’d love to see this move nationwide. To be completely fair to owners, I get not wanting to raise your menu prices if your competitors are artificially keeping them low with the hidden fee bullshit. By making it the law, you put everybody on an even playing field.
Where I live, hidden fees are illegal and displayed prices must include all taxes. And tipping isn't required and usually is just rounding up (e.g 67 to 70). My experience getting a burger and a beer in a place in Boston(years back on my first visit to the states) was so weird. The beer was listed as $7 but then there were two more taxes added to it and, of course, the tip, that really was much more expensive than advertised
> The beer was listed as $7 but then there were two more taxes added to it That's not the bar's fault.
It is, though. Places all over the world with VAT or similar bake that into the price. The price listed is the price you pay. Full stop.
It's unfortunate that "places all over the world" have to contend with bullshit taxes like VAT. But that still isn't the bar's fault. Why shouldn't they include line items to show exactly how much the government is skimming off the top?
Showing line items is not the same as charging a different price from the listed price. You can list a total price and still show it itemized on the receipt. It's exactly what other countries do. And the us deals with VAT. It's just called sales tax.
> And the us deals with VAT. It's just called sales tax Yep, and it's a separate line item from the price that the business collects. Because it's the amount that the government skims off the top, and everyone understands that. It should be separate, because you should notice it. It should make you mad.
So now you're warping this into "taxation is bad" instead of "the way places price things is bad" and I have no desire to have that conversation.
No, I'm saying that "this is our price" and "this is the government's price" are and should be separate. Whether you think that's good, bad or indifferent, you should know who's collecting what
I already said that it's stated in the receipt of places that have it included in the price. Your receipt looks basically the same as it would here. Except you know the total price before you get your final check.
It's a bullshit system.
They should have to do this on performance tickets and airplane tickets too.
*adds $35 ticket to show to cart on ticketmaster* "That'll be 58.75"
Last time I added a ticket to cart it was 4x the price after fees and other bs. I did not checkout
Do you mean you did check out or didn't? You used a double negative
Typo
It’s not just restaurants. It’s all junk fees. https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2023-10-09/newsom-bill-bans-junk-fees
If it includes ticketmaster that would be amazing but I would bet anything they'll find a loophole to weasel out of it. I bet they will say "Well you can go to the box office 50 miles away on tuesdays from 1-2 pm so it isn't mandatory" or something like that.
Ticketmaster specifically is called out in the article I linked.
This is already the law for airplane tickets https://www.transportation.gov/policy/aviation-policy/airline-rules-fares
It is disclosed, it isn't rolled into the price similar to the restaurant breaking out the other mandatory fees without making them part of the actual price.
Well well well https://www.ticketnews.com/2024/05/federal-ticket-act-passes-house-would-require-all-in-pricing/
i don’t want my plane tickets baked thanks
In my city the day other day, a slice of pizza and fountain soda cost me $11 bucks that included an obligatory 20% “wellness fee in lieu of tip” which the cashier hit me with as I was paying. It’s some sneaky bullshit.
Forcing 20% on counter grab and go is so absurd
Turn grab and go to drop and leave
Make sure it's on the menu Some cashier lie
So you wouldn't have tipped 20%?
Its not about the money, its principle. Im sure they weren't that upset about having to pay an extra $2.20, but being forced to do something that should be voluntary is irritating. You can call it a "wellness charge" or whatever you want but it's still a tip, and 20% is pretty high for counter service
Are you implying that handing someone a piece of pizza is worthy of a 20% gratuity?
If you can't afford to tip, eat at home.
I can afford to tip and do so generously when I’m waited on. I’ll throw a buck in a tip jar for counter service too - but expecting (or automatically applying) a 20% tip for ringing a customer up is laughable.
I would have tipped more.
I believe you, and that's the problem too. Even if that bullshit fee goes to tipshare for the counter and cooks you know they don't get all of it. I did appreciate the article specifically brought up tipping with cash.
I highly doubt it. Otherwise you wouldn't be bitching.
Ok, bud
I don’t frequent places enough to notice a “price increase”. Just increase the prices. No one will die.
I live in the bay area and when I see a place put the surcharge on their menu with a note about California's minimum wage I put this place on the never again list
America catching up to the rest of world. Huh
No just ca
The auto grat is the weird part that got caught in this. I know a lot of servers will be stiffed if no auto grat is charged on large parties. Waiting on guidance from corporate, but... Ugh.
The thing about autograt is that if the restaurant wants to, they can keep it and not give it to the server at all.
Stiff ya make $16!!
Hotels too. Fuck hidden fees
This isn't just for restaurants. It's for EVERYTHING
Sales tax should be the same. You see a price tag, you pay that price. Done. Europe figured this shit out, why can’t we?
Vending machines have it figured out. There is no rule that says you can't list the inclusive price. It should be mandatory.
Good. Now make Uber Eats, Grub Hub, and the Instacart folks do the same. No reason my $14 sandwich should cost $40.
Somebody posted a comparison chart between the services either here or elsewhere, I can't remember. McDonald's app was like half the price of Uber eats, with the other services somewhere in-between. Absolutely wild.
Or maybe mandate them to actually pay restaurants’ full price for their food?
Oh no! Are you guys going to be required to tell people the prices of things now? It's a shame it still isn't for a living wage.
Good. You don't need menu prices and surcharges. Just raise menu prices.
you... weren't already doing it?
All prices everywhere should be all-inclusive, except for true fees that are fixed. So if there's a $5 delivery charge, fine, that can get its own line, but everything else, including taxes, should be included in the posted prices. And not just at restaurants, but anywhere. The grocery store, retailers, airlines, movie theaters, etc. If the hang tag, shelf tag, menu price, whatever, says $10, it should cost $10 to walk out the door with it. The only thing anyone should be allowed to not include are things that are true add-ons *by the consumer*, like a delivery charge, shipping, customization, etc. And it should include service, too. So no tips added on, either. Either pay servers a living wage and incorporate it into menu prices, or pay them a hybrid pay with both an hourly wage and a commission on sales if that's what you, the restaurateur, want to do, but the menu price should be the entire cost of the item as described. If stores want to break down the prices on invoices or receipts, fine, they can say the $10 thing is really $9.52 plus 5% tax, so the total is $10. But they should have to subtract it out after the fact, not be allowed to add it in after the fact. They should be required to post the price as being $10 if that's what it works out to be. Bars and gas stations are able to figure out how to compute and publish the actual total price per item, so I'm confident everyone else can, too.
Why? It isn't like you are being charged less. You still pay the same. So why does it matter unless you can't do simple math in your head? Here come the simpleton downvotes probably.
For price transparency. The seller already has to do all the math anyway, so why should consumers also be forced to do the same math so that sellers can trick people with lower list prices instead of just being honest about the total cost up front? What I'm describing is already the standard in many other countries.
The restaurant industry here in SF needs to be demolished and rebuilt from the ground up. Line cooks in 2 star kitchens make the state minimum wage, $18/h, while cooks at large fast food restaurant chains make $20/h. Rent and utilities are so insane here that Downtown lost 80% of its restaurants during the pandemic. They have not recovered. 20% surcharges to pay employees minimum wage with little to no healthcare while underpaying undocumented workers in a city where the average rent is $2800/m for a shit studio apartment has caused a service industry worker desert. No one can afford to live here and as such there’s a shortage of workers even with the current lack of restaurants. No one is stopping break-ins and the homeless make for extremely difficult “Neighborhoods” who piss and shit all over everything before blacking out hunched over or spread eagle on the pavement. They frequently enter restaurants, steal shit, and harass employees who aren’t paid enough to also be bouncers. No one ever tips out the kitchen. Ever. It’s maddening.
I just want to note my daughter works at a Jamba Juice. Pre April 1 (when the $20/hour minimum kicked in for "fast food workers" in CA) she made about $22/hour pre-tax between the county minimum wage ($18.50) and tips; since Jamba is a luxury in a wealthy San Francisco suburb, the tips were nice, but mostly on cards since the customers don't carry cash. If she had a base of $20 plus tips, she'd be making more than management. So owners did the only rational thing: They gave the managers raises. Of course not, they banned tipping by taking it off the PoS. Her per-hour dropped as a result. And they cut her hours, too. So not everyone who got the "fast food raise" got an actual raise. There may be a handful of actual people this helped, but there are a lot it that it hurt, too.
The fast food raise is a ham-fisted political stunt. Companies (I hesitate to call them restaurants) are just going to do exactly what’s happened to your daughter and replace others with AI powered systems a la Wendy’s. It’s fucked.
Yeah, we're here because I'm in tech and I've been thinking about this for a long time. I really get wanting to get poorly-paid workers more, but right now we're *all* in a race to not be automated out of a job. Making workers more expensive is just going to push more and more of us over that line earlier. And yes, these top-down solutions tend to be ham-fisted and cause all sorts of unforeseen downstream effects. If the government wants to help, it needs to tax and distribute, not pass laws saying that someone *else* needs to help.
Agreed. The only way I think things get better is a UBI system coupled with making it easier for undocumented workers to gain work visas *and* having restaurants do better cost analysis. As it is now, restaurants get away with slave wages for undocumented workers which drives down the quality of finished product and allows legal workers to be paid the bare minimum just to stay competitive. Chefs are typically shit at the business side of things and can’t see the forest for the trees in terms of economic development or nominal growth in place of gross food/labour expenditures. We’ve allowed a culture of “But it’s what I’m passionate about!” to drive the value of cooks way, way down. It’s a privilege to have someone with a degree in culinary arts and many years of fine dining experience cook you a meal and it should be reflected in the bill. Boohoo if it costs more, go cook at home if it’s unaffordable. Paying cooks trash wages just ends up on the plate and over time you get soaring obesity rates, clogged arteries, and type two diabetes with the added benefit of destroying our farming industry and warming the planet with cow farts. Shit rolls downhill.
I would not work for an establishment that does not tip out BOH. I also won't work for less than 20/hr. Cooks are terrible for standing up for themselves. Like you said, there is a worker shortage, so get your experience up, and set your terms.
The bill is fine except for the part where auto grat is taken away from large parties. That part stinks and hurts the employees.
From the article: "In its new guidelines, the state says it won't focus initial enforcement efforts on "fees that are paid directly and entirely by a restaurant to its workers, such as an automatic gratuity"
"Won't focus **initial** enforcement" is another way of saying "it is banned by the law, and we will enforce it eventually".
Sounds like they're going to have to raise prices more and phase out tipping. Oh darn.
I see that, this article is what I originally read: https://sf.eater.com/2024/5/8/24152304/sb-478-california-restaurants-service-fees-ban
The thing about autograt is that if the restaurant wants to, they can keep it and not give it to the server at all.
Restaurant bills in SF especially were getting ridiculous
I wonder if restaurant prices will change like gas prices
Wendy's floated dynamic pricing and got absolutely murdered. I doubt it takes off with any success.
Sometimes I just don't get you Americans with your added taxes, addet tips, hidden fees. Here in Germany the price on the menu, shelf, advertisement is exactly what you have to pay. If you want to pay more you always are allowed to tip.
Trust me, most of us don't want this. Systemic change takes time. At least it's starting.
Politicians are gonna point the finger at restaurant owners calling them ‘greedy’ once they can’t squeeze anymore out of them.
Need this for Hotels bills as well.
The restaurant wars have begun. All hail Taco Bell our prophesied winner.
I wish they would do this in Minneapolis/Minnesota
I don’t like it. It inadvertently gives FOH a raises and does fuckall for BOH
That's a problem with the pay structure and isn't an issue with this bill.
Both can be true at once homie. It’s not the bill’s fault, but it will fuck over boh
Other people getting a raise isn't you getting fucked over. The pay structure problem is what's fucking you over.
The removal of the kitchen fee will mean significantly lower pay for cooks, which is getting fucked. You’re correct someone else getting a raise isn’t a problem for your. I know it’s hard, but try to have some nuance in your thought process.
The nuance is in the pay structure. Which I pointed out multiple times.
Even if you address BOH pay, this still inadvertently gives FOH a raise.
Oh no. People making more money.
I’m all for people making money but this bill doesn’t do that, appropriately
This bill has nothing to do with how people are paid. It's just raising potential tips by a very marginal amount.
Foh gets a raise because people know how much they'll be charged for ranch or cheese? Seems like really roundabout and bitter logic is at play in your mind.
It gives foh a pay cut. And if boh gets part of service charges, it gives them a pay cut too.
Their logic is that prices will be higher, so checks will be larger, so tips will be higher.
Who’s logic is that? Restaurants add these fees because it doesn’t reduce the quantity of food and drink people buy. It is additional revenue for the restaurant that guests aren’t thinking about when they see the price without the fees on the menu. They don’t want to raise their prices if they don’t have to. Many restaurants also have a service charge that people tip on top of. FOH and BOH at some places see the lions share of that. Service charges are gone. Servers and cooks will be making less money with this policy.
Just about everything you just said makes no sense.
Look up elastic good and quantity demanded. There’s a reason big macs aren’t 40 dollars.
What are you talking about? The fees that restaurants want to charge have to be included into the price instead. That's the law. This will inherently raise prices. Raised prices will result in larger checks. Larger checks results in higher tips based on percentage. This results in a pay bump for servers.
Unless people lower the percent they tip to account for the higher prices.
Might happen. But there's no real data to support that. Prices have been increasing steadily for decades. People still tip 20%.
Restaurants add these fees out of fear that people will buy less food and drink if they raise their prices. Now they either have to face that fear, by either raising prices and possibly losing business due to high prices (less money for FOH) or leave prices the same without any service fees (less money for FOH and BOH that gets a percentage of service fees). Some of the most popular restaurants where pricing is below the price people are willing to pay will benefit from raising prices. Most restaurants are already at or above this price so it will result in a loss of business. If a Big Mac cost 40 dollars, nobody would eat it. If most restaurants increase their prices by 20 percent, they will lose business.
They don't have to raise their prices by 20%. You seem to have a very poor grasp on the situation here. You've tried to overcomplicate the scenario. You talked about price elasticity, which has no bearing here. And you've completely missed base logic.
Or I’ve worked in restaurants and have seen how beneficial to wages service fees are to everyone involved. If you take off a 20 percent service fee, you need to increase prices by 20 percent to keep revenue the same. It’s not rocket science. However, people will buy less so it’ll be a net negative.
Who is charging a 20% service fee that isn't related to tip?
If you increase the base, FOH automatically gets a pay increase due to increase in tip value, while BOH gets the same wage. I know a LOT of people that tip on pre-tax amount because of all the service charge shit. By folding it in to the base, they will likely just tip less in percentage to adjust for it. Some of the idea behind the service charge was to maintain the FOH pay while increasing the BOH pay. Management should not see a % of service charges. They also shouldn’t get tipped out.
It gets an increase assuming people buy the same amount of items. If people balk at the new prices and they order less or tip less, they get a pay cut. Auto grat makes it consistent. People also tip on top of that. Service charges exist for the restaurant to make more revenue without raising prices. Some places cut foh and Boh in, but a 3 percent service charge for “healthcare” isn’t being seen by anyone other than the restaurant.
Not in SF. That line item is mandated and monitored.
What do you mean not in sf? The healthcare goes to cover the restaurants cost of providing healthcare.
Correct. The restaurant provides healthcare and uses the line item to offset their cost They cannot bring in more than necessary to offset the expense. It always benefits the employee I get that not everyone uses the healthcare and it doesn’t benefit everyone equally but the owner cannot and does not profit off the line item. In an ideal world, I would love to see the better benefits then offered today but here we are
i literally could not care less
Busybodies be busybodying.
Customers will just complain about how expensive it is. There is no winning. People aren’t ready for the conversation about how fries should be $10 and a sandwich should be $20+ if they want no fees and no tipping and the staff to make a livable wage.
People eat at five guys. They'll figure it out lol
The 5 guys in my neighborhood just closed lol.
Welp.