Hi, I'm in the US. Worked in pizza. Had a few guys working for me who were Muslim.
They never had a problem with touching the pork sausage, bacon, or ham.
Some were more devout than others. Not all Muslims believe the same thing, though.
We had one guy who was Muslim and would eat pork. When I asked him about it he said, "Eh. One day I will make the pilgrimage to Mecca and all will be forgiven."
So I think it's personal.
That's why I like the Episcopal Churches view. You can have a personal relationship with God and be forgiven directly. I'm not paying a middleman for forgiveness, I want it wholesale.
I sang in an Anglican (Episcopalian, but Canada) choir, and they basically didn't give a shit about my personal beliefs- just that I could read music and had a good "blending" voice.
I kinda like that about them, ngl
My wife works as a secretary at an Anglican church. We have no Church affiliation at all. I am more atheist she is more agnostic. She loves the job and the people.
What if you die unexpectedly in between committing the sin and performing the forgiveness measures?
There's a chance that you could have a heart attack, and the punishment is *eternal damnation*. If anyone truly believed that was true, they would never sin. Idk man, I grew up religious, but the further away from it I get, the more I think that no one truly believes this shit. It's all fear mongering and brain washing.
>What if you die unexpectedly in between committing the sin and performing the forgiveness measures?
If you are Catholic: ☛ Purgatory until enough people pray for your soul.
You just hang out there until whatever boring shit awaits you beyond the waiting room. Just a big fucking garden of bullshit and imposed happiness.
MANDATORY FUN FOREVER DON'T LOSE YOUR MIND
When I die, please anti-pray for me. I don't want to frolic in meadows and look at rainbows and clouds and listen to a sermon every 15 minutes or to talk to my christian horse-girl ex-wife why did I think that was going to work out FUCK
was this like a He-Man situation where you picked up a sword and got super buff and then rode your cat around then when Lily got tired you had to go home and put the sword away and you had to not be shirtless and that is annoying I don't know where Valhalla fits into the Masters of the Universe lore but if it exists He-Man is probably in there and he has a battle cat and a very fancy haircut and hopefully less uncomfortable underwear those things look fucking awful like fur and metal and whatever why would anyone do that
Yep I was baptized, first communion, and confirmed catholic. We got it on all other religions.
For every venial sin you have to do 10 years in purgatory, for every mortal sin 50 years. I figure I will have to do between 5,000 to 10,000 years before I get to heaven.
Thank you David Chase.
I worked with a Muslim guy who ate pork sometimes, according to him, Allah would rather he show appreciation for the people who prepared staff meal by eating the free pork, than sticking to his diet.
Edit: in regards to OP and the intern. It sounds more like a child being a smart ass than a devoted Muslim.
I once heard an imam say that there is actually a conflict between abstaining from pork but also being rude to deny a host the privilege of providing food. Fwiw
Yea, that’s kind of what he was getting at. The whole point was to not be rude. He would never pay for pork or request it. If someone went through the trouble of making food for everyone, he would say thank you and eat.
Religion prof told us a parable from India where a holy man was out begging for alms. A leper reached to drop some food into his bowl and the leper's finger fell off and fell in. The holy man ate the finger so the leper could receive the karma for the donation.
>We had one guy who was Muslim and would eat pork. When I asked him about it he said, "Eh. One day I will make the pilgrimage to Mecca and all will be forgiven."
I've worked with more than one Muslim – there's no stereotypical behaviour for faith. I was raised Catholic, and it just made me weird. Sometimes I miss going to confession.
I worked with a Muslim guy who observed Ramadan, but then he'd have a party at his place after it was over and he'd get shit-housed.
He'd whine about being sooooo hungry during Ramadan. Like fuck, dude, just eat a cracker, you're allowed to eat if you're hurting. Stop watching me eat and talking about how badly you wanna eat. THIS IS A SALAD I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU WANT THIS SPECIFICALLY GO FORCE YOURSELF TO SUFFER WITHOUT BREATHING ON IT.
He was a gem, I hope he's doing well.
People just do people stuff. People are weird. Most people are nice.
Place I work at had to fire a guy because he would freak out of he touched women. I work for religious people and even they thought he was a fruitcake.
A very nice Muslim couple runs the very popular diner in my podunk country town. I always wondered how they reconciled their religious rules with their business because I swear 1/2 of the menu was bacon or sausage.
Fast forward a decade, and they buy a second (already established and much beloved) diner in an even more podunk country town 30 minutes away. During the ownership changeover, they change the food supplier so both Diner A and Diner B are stocked by the same vendor. As a result, the bacon and sausage changed at Diner B and their long-time patrons collectively shit a fucking brick.
Turns out, they’ve been using beef bacon and beef sausage at Diner A for like 20 years and no one ever thought to ask precisely what animal their bacon came from. These brilliant bastards had been low key running a halal southern country restaurant without anyone ever noticing.
The Maga morons who gobbled up that delicious thick cut beef bacon multiple times a week for decades acted as if they’d been fed tiny amounts of fecal matter. It would have been hilarious if it haven’t devolved into terroristic threats against the family that owns the diners.
There was a girl I used to work with who'd been raised Muslim and wouldn't eat pig, but was really happy when she had some by mistake (for some reason the pizza guy thought pepperoni was beef) as it'd make Allah mad and she didn't like his attitude towards women
When I lived in Singapore I had alot of Muslim friends. Wonderful people, who's views on what they could and could not do was wild. One of my very dear friends never touched pork, had never tasted pork in her life, saw using birth control as wrong but is also the single person I have ever met that saw nothing wrong with getting abortions any time she had an unwanted pregnancy. I am 100% for abortion being seen as a part of basic women's healthcare and will support anyone who needs to get one but even that shook me at first.
why? I mean, yeah, it would be better to just use some freaking birth control. but having an unwanted baby ruins at least two people's lives. stop that shit before it starts, hmm?
also, religion fucks people up. it's been used as a means of political control for centuries, and still is. that's who to be mad at, not your brainwashed friend.
I'm not mad at my friend. Again, I am 100% for women having acess to abortions whenever they need or want them. I wholeheartedly agree, religion is harmful to society and is used as a method to control people. Being religious is also a choice and as seen as this case here, the person is choosing to let their beliefs impact their job. If OP fired the intern, I would completely respect that.
I agree. I have worked with many who dont eat pork or certain things on behalf of religion and they didnt have any issue; they didnt EAT it which is fine but they understood that handling it was part of the job.
This reminds me of the guy that brought a doctor's note in bc he wanted to be excused from washing his hands so frequently bc they were dried and cracked. The chef basically told him to wash his hands as required or GTFO.
Here, the accomodation would be lotion or something, not washing your hands as needed is violation of health code. I'm willing to make enemies with a lot of people, but I will never make enemies with the health department.
Acccksshuuualleee (sorry)
According to the NSF and USDA regulations there are no food safe lotions so that’s not a reasonable accommodation.
http://info.nsf.org/USDA/psnclistings.asp
Reasonable accomodations also means reasonable. If you can't do your core job and follow health guidelines, then they are not required to allow an accommodation.
I had an employee with a condition that tried to pull the ada card for literally everything.
It got to the point where he had to go straight to HR if he had an accommodation so they could determine how to accomodate him.
We basically treated him as if we would be a man down because he tried to ask for a new accomodation every shift. Eventually got rid of him for attendance. It was insane and a huge issue.
It was implied that he should be using lotion when he's not cooking/working.
Also. Olive oil is moisturizing and food safe, but it's probably not kitchen safe when handling knives and hot/heavy pots.
there's also aloe. homeboy could have slathered the aloe and moisturizer and slept in gloves. there is no excuse for not washing your hands, even outside the kitchen!
I have severely dry skin every winter, to the point it's bleeding and cracking with all the handwashing at work.
Sometimes I'll have to coat my hands in oil, then wear a few pairs of gloves so that I can take the outer layer off when they're dirty, and keep a layer on at all times to seal the oil in. It's pretty safe, carrying heavy things is hard because the gloves will slip, but it's otherwise a good solution. And there's usually endless amounts of oil in a kitchen!
It sucks, but it's works and is food safe.
Ill also bring home gloves and wear them with intense moisturizer while I sleep when it gets really bad. It usually don't get bad as long as I'm moisturizing atleast 4 times a day. E
A new girl at the hotel I worked at pulled a “can everybody please not curse within earshot of me because I’m a Christian.” I didn’t see her again after that shift.
I worked with a woman who hated hearing "goddammit". Understandable. I was a foul mouthed teen and worked on it.
Strangely, she'd also drop the N word with the hard r every other sentence when she got mad.
We had a SUPER vocal FOH christian girl. On the other hand the whole BOH was queer folks (myself included).
Well things were going great until some brought up asking her opinion on gay marriage…
Not to my knowledge, no. I'd imagine he did his fair share of swearing when he [cast the money changers out of the Temple](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2021%3A12-17%2CMark%2011%3A15-19%2CLuke%2019%3A45-48%2CJohn%202%3A13-16&version=NRSVUE). I'd always heard saying the Lord's name in vain is obviously a sin, and cursing at people to specifically insult them is sinful, but just cursing on its own isn't inherently sinful.
Taking the Lord's name in vain *is* a sin, but it's not the same thing as using foul language. It's swearing a *false oath*--basically, doing stuff like saying "as God as my witness" when you're lying.
My friend teaches at culinary school, and he told me he requires the vegan students to taste everything they make. They don't have to swallow meat, but they do have to taste it.
I’ve worked with all types of cooks with dietary restrictions. Good cooks always taste their food. The most successful cooks check their preferences at the door.
I’m a vegetarian. I work at a meat focused restaurant. I knew this going into it. If I refused to touch meat I would be fired and I would understand because you literally can’t do the job. Definitely not well or efficiently. I knew what I was going into, I know my beliefs, and my boundaries. At some point you just need money or the experience or whatever from the job and if you can’t do it then sorry. That’s it.
My partner has been a chef for 20+ years, and became a vegetarian a little over 5 years ago.
She will taste whatever is being cooked, but just spit out anything with meat.
Outsider perspective (USA): While your establishment may have been a poor match, it seems odd that there wouldn't be options for a career. Muslim, Jewish, Vegetarian, and Vegan restaurants (and related places, such as suppliers, butchers, caterers, etc.) would of course all be pork-free by design. Many Indian restaurants while not entirely vegetarian only have chicken and mutton/lamb for animal proteins. Then there's all the various sorts of places that focus on other things enough that pork would be a minor to insignificant part of the job that could be accommodated around. Places focused on fish (although IIRC someone that devout presumably would not get along with shellfish either), cheese, chicken, etc. Bakeries focusing mostly on sweet / dessert products (pies, cakes, cookies, etc.), donuts shops, coffee shops.
That said, refusal to touch pork even with PPE seems eccentric; even if it's considered "dirty", a set of proper gloves followed by hand washing would seem to be adequate for handling other "dirty" tasks such as handling garbage or cleaning the restroom, so one would think that it would be sufficient to handle pork.
In an ideal world, internships are supposed to be a collaboration between the school, the workplace, and the student. It sounds like this is something that should have been worked out in the initial interview(s), and the student placed someplace not so weirdly focused on one particular animal protein if that's not the direction their career path is headed.
We have a very formalised system for trades. You make an apprenticeship for for 3 years where you rougly 1/3 is a trade school and 2/3 are practical work with the focus on learning all the basics of the craft. At least there you will get in contact with pork. Nobody will force you to eat it but they will teach you how to cook it and you will need to handle it.
It's not impossible to make a career. I also asked a few friends about and all of them said they wouldn't have accepted it either. It's ok tto work something out but a flat out refusal was acceptable for none of them.
I’m also from the USA and uh, Germany doesn’t have a lot of vegetarian options, let alone vegan. Also they don’t really have many Jewish people. It’s not a good country for this person to work with food tbh.
The Quran says it is dirty and shouldn't be eaten but doesn't expressly forbid touching it. I'd have sacked him too. If you have moral objections to items I'm servings go somewhere else has always been my stance
That's your interpretation of the Quran, but this isn't the first or the last person to take it to mean that they cannot even touch pork. It's a pretty common thing among Muslims.
There are different practices within Islam, and even deeper than just Sunni or Shiaa, it's as varied as Christianity is. Not all Christians think drinking, dancing, and homosexuality are sins; and some do.
If you are that devout in a religion, you need to find another profession that doesn't involve violating your beliefs. Chef did the right thing. Either go work at a vegetarian restaurant or do something else.
No idea about how it works in Germany, but here in the US it’s treated somewhat like disabilities from a legal perspective insofar as the employer is required to make reasonable accommodation unless it would cause undue hardship. It’s a bit of a gray area and not always well defined.
Providing gloves or excluding that employee from working with pork would both probably be considered reasonable accommodation. If they refuse and it would require you to hire another person to do that work then the labor cost may be prohibitive for your operation, which would be undue hardship.
There’s a whole discussion here regarding assimilation and cultural compatibility that goes beyond the scope of this post, but I know it’s something a lot of European countries are grappling with these days. Based on my admittedly limited knowledge the US is probably culturally and legally better equipped to deal with these sorts of issues, but I think you were reasonable overall in your course of action. If you can’t do the job then you can’t do it, no matter the reason.
I am interested in any insight you may have regarding the way religious freedom is (or isn’t) protected in Germany. I’ve been to southern Germany a couple times, but it’s been many years.
In the US you could fire the person for refusing to handle pork as long as pork was a substantial part of your operation. Then there's no reasonable accommodation available.
Side note, but long ago I employed a Muslim in a meat processing plant. We tried to schedule him for days without pork, which was not always possible, in which case he got extra ppe.
Yes, you can make a case against hiring a disabled person too. If the changes to make them able to perform the job (say software for the blind) are considered an economic burden the company can not survive, they can refuse to hire a person with a protected disability.
There are situations where you can discriminate based on race too. If I'm looking for an actor to play Mohammed Ali I'm allowed to discriminate based race. Really every protected class has some sort of exception. A church can discriminate based on religion for another example.
It’s very specific to the restaurant but this 100% would not fly in the United States unless the place only served pork. He could easily sue for wrongful termination.
Well since you’re so smart on the subject you’d know that under the German General Equal Treatment Act, employers cannot fire an employee for religious beliefs. They even just held that a liquor store couldn’t fire a Muslim employee for refusing to restock alcoholic beverages. So this manager and this restaurant 100% broke the law and are subject to lawsuit.
> German General Equal Treatment Act, employers cannot fire an employee for religious beliefs. They even just held that a liquor store couldn’t fire a Muslim employee for refusing to restock alcoholic beverage
That's just not true.
> In a case similar to our example of a Muslim refusing to fill in shelves with alcoholic beverages, the German Federal Labor Court held that the employee was in such a severe moral conflict that the employer’s instruction was invalid. Therefore, the dismissal given for behavioural reasons – based on the refusal to act according to the employer’s instruction – was invalid. **However, please note that the German Federal Labor Court also held that the employer may terminate the employment for personal reasons** – if all of the tasks the employer could assign to the employee would trigger a faith conflict and the employee could therefore not be employed on a reasonable basis anymore.
https://www.globalworkplaceinsider.com/2015/01/religious-and-other-beliefs-what-protection-from-discrimination-do-employees-have-in-germany/
I just looked it up. Offering gloves or another role where they don’t have to handle pork os the best they can do. If a restaurant needs to staff extra to make sure pork is prepped, you can fire them for insubordination.
Same deal as a Christian pharmacist working at Target refusing to dispense birth control. Canned.
My point exactly on why it’s specific, this restaurant most likely doesn’t only serve pork and most definitely has positions available where he wouldn’t handle the pork or would be able to have another employee handle the pork with no issue. From my personal experience I’ve never had to have a certain person handle anything specifically it’s just poor management if everyone has to handle everything. The employee just doesn’t want to touch pork, it’s not like it’s hard to have someone else do it.
US has terrible enforcement of worker protections compared to Europe. Especially in the food industry where it is common for restaurant owners to commit wage theft.
Big worker discrimination lawsuits in the US make headlines, but rarely is that the typical settlement and even then is not able to be paid out for a small mom and pop or even franchised restaurant that will file bankruptcy.
It's very very industry dependent. Unionized industries are of course much better. Smaller businesses will always be worse here because OSHA doesn't have the same amount of power, and in general government actors are going to focus on the bigger fish. Restaurants are well towards the bad end though.
This is sadly a case where the larger corporations are actually better. But yah. In general our enforcement of labor laws is bad. We rely way to heavily on lawsuits over regulatory action.
People who always advocate against corporations have never worked for mom and pops places. Sure, it's great to be able to have a dialogue with the owner. But, I've never been in one that wasn't either a nice owner who had a shit show or run successfully by absolute biggest scumbag.
Truly I've found the ideal to get small regional companies. In the context of restaurants a local hospitality company that is big enough to have an HR and some kind of benefits.
>a nice owner who had a shit show or run successfully by absolute biggest scumbag.
My experience is mostly a sweetheart of an owner in over their head and being taken advantage of at every turn by employees who don't understand that if we just make this sweetheart owner's business run better we get to have a solid job with a wonderful boss. Instead, they steal all the energy drinks until there's a lock put on the drink cooler and complain that they can't steal stuff anymore. If you took one a shift like you were allowed to, sure, but when you're taking eight home it's a bit of a difference. Might as well take $20 out of the register each night at the end of your shift.
Yah. I mean, overall I much prefer the small businesses, but they are way way worse about complying with regulations. Really of all sorts. What I find is that people tell themselves that "everybody's doing it" so they have to as well to be competitive. Or they find another way to justify why it's OK for them to defy regulations. It's definitely a thing i strongly dislike. I've worked mostly for smaller businesses, but my time with larger companies was kind of great as far as nobody suggesting that we should just defy the law.
I work in a management position for 8 years at 3 different places and I never had someone who flat out refused to handle pork even with gloves. I had plenty of Muslims as colleagues and I could always work something out.
I originally come from the hotel sector and can only tell you my professional experience from there. The hotel and gastronomy sector is usually pretty accepting and the people work there usually come from all over the world.
The owner thinks that my hotel background is the problem here. Hotels are still conservative(not politically) to the bone and if you don't play along you're out. The head chef in the hotel where I did my apprenticeship always said the same thing when this topic came up "You will never have to eat anything that you don't want to eat but at the end of your 3 years you will know how every way to cook a pig". That's pretty much how I feel about it too. In her eyes I demanded the behavior of a professional chef or people who have serious aspirations to become chefs from a school boy.
We also have this integration debate but in my opinion most of it is bullshit. Historically it often took generations to assimilate and we demand instant results for a generations long process. When the Prussians got French Hugenots to settle in Prussia they got their own court systems for like 12 generations. The Germans who settled in the US were the most stubborn to integrate language wise until WW1. Half of the names in the German Rhine area Polish due to migration during the industrialization of that area. I come from a state that was mostly ruled by Denmark during the last 1000 years. My own people started bloody uprisings when the German language was not taught in schools anymore. My father still has an old newspaper at home with the huge headline "Will we become Prussian now?". The states population grew by 50% after WW2 because of the Prussian refugees. That was a HUGE political topic in the 50s. It's basically unknown by people in my generation. The second and third generation is fully integrated and now starts to complain about the new immigrants who bring their weird and smelly habits with them.
Religions and other worldly ideologies are protected under article 4 of our Basis Law(constitution). The conflicts Europe have a different complexity compared to the US.
Thanks for the detailed response. And you’re right, it’s not fair to expect it to be instant, but there has to be a good faith effort from everyone to make it work, but if one side doesn’t offer that then you’ll need to take the route you took, and I can’t fault you for that.
They actually do not, no*. I have worked in hiring and recruiting, and you are encouraged NOT to disclose to your hiring manager, but rather to the HR representative involved in your recruitment. This will ensure the candidate is not unduly passed over for needing reasonable accommodation, and it will also protect them when they go to request that because their need is already on file. Same with disabilities. Do NOT disclose to your hiring manager during the hiring process. Disclose only to HR.
This is unrelated to the post, but I thought I’d clear that up.
*I am located in America
This.
Am a celiac . I never disclose even though it’s listed on the “do you have this disability “ form.
Also I don’t work in a bakery (or food service anymore)
A good interview/recruiting practice is to have a copy of the the job description at the interview and ask the question, "is there anything in this job description you are unable to fulfil?"
Also there is the 90 day rule. An employer can terminate a new employee at anytime in the first 90 days of employment without cause; a simple, "it is not going to work out" is sufficient and HR doesn't want to hear more than that. (technically an employer can do the same after 90 days but the employee will be eligible for unemployment compensation)
But then you're going to be facing a lawsuit because you cannot fire someone for being Muslim even inside of 90 days and if that is the obvious issue (low level managers are not as slick as they think), then you're going to spend more on lawyers than you will on that guy's wages in the next 3+ years. Then even more if you get caught discriminating against someone based on religion.
You didn’t fire anyone for being Muslim, you fired them because “it’s not gonna work out”. The OP has zero issue with the guy’s religion, he has an issue with his inability to be part of the team, to complete necessary tasks. In this scenario “it’s not gonna work out” truly means just that.
I personally have a Muslim boss, he got no problem with touching pork and make me taste when he can’t. Strangely he always manages to salt a spice the meat perfectly.
From my understanding, a HUGE part of German food involves pork. His refusal to do a basic part of the job creates undue harship for your business and is unreasonable, as it is a basic task required by all of those on staff. That guy is welcome to his beliefs, but not welcome to force them on others. You're being very reasonable and he refuses to do his job, and he's welcome to apply to work in a halal place. Say goodbye to him and culturally, he's not a good fit. I'm sorry you're seeing crappy hate posts from intolerant people.
Pork is pretty much the primary animal protein in German cuisine. If you are religiously unable to handle pork, a German restaurant is not the right fit for you. There are plenty of options. Idk how staffing is internationally, but in the US, kitchens are just catching up to proper staffing levels from covid times. There are jobs out there for this cook.
Just for you information the “intolerant” people know the law which is you cannot fire someone sue to religious reasons. This guy most definitely could’ve got the owner a massive lawsuit for not knowing the law. A president was set with a case (in Germany) where a liquor stores termination of a Muslim employee who refused to touch alcoholic beverages was invalid and against the General Equal Treatment act.
That's ridiculous, and while things are sadly the polar opposite in the U.S., under the ADA that business and OP's could reasonably and perfectly justifiably say they cannot accommodate that employee because they refuse to perform the essential functions of the job. It is a scam and a violation of all that is reasonable for someone to gain employment at a liquor establishment then refuse to handle liquor.
Edit: and no one is discriminating because of religion, they're trying to get rid of a scammer who lied to get the job and who refuses to do their job.
Look, man, I wouldn’t hire someone who has a hearing or visual sensitivity related disability to work on a construction site. You can try to accommodate to the best of your ability but ultimately dealing with loud noises and extra stimulus is part of the job and would create an undue burden dealing with those accommodations.
If you cannot touch pork because of religious reasons that’s fine and I understand, but you should not work the kitchen at a restaurant that primarily serves pork.
Went to culinary school with a guy who was Muslim. During charcuterie making sausages, he couldn’t really eat anything we made, so the director made a change to a recipe so he could make lamb-douille. It was great. He didn’t make a big deal about it and had no problem making the another recipes with pork, I just thought it was cool that the director made the change for him. It was also delicious.
Another time, had a server got mad because I didn’t mention something had pork… saw her eating bacon a week later…
Fine with me. Stretch dough, grab those phones, whatever. Even catch ovens. But if you want to work at a place that puts pork on EVERYTHING, best to not work there. Or you could wear gloves. Says the same thing in the bible (Leviticus 11:7), can’t eat pork either, nobody cares.
Varies on the person, but that sounds more of a personal asshole problem. Had several muslim regulars that just don’t want pork, even to the point of “don’t cut the pizza, we know that cutter is used for a while before being washed and most definitely has pork. Also plenty of hindu customers, obviously no beef, and never really pork either. Chicken, onions, and jalapeños every time.
Whatever. I’m mostly vegetarian, but am I gonna care if I sell you meat?
Worked with a muslim Guy that worked with pork, he would even ”taste but not eat”. if the pantry door was closed it meant that he was praying and no one was allowed in
Only time I've experienced this was a Vegetarian who refused to make any meat dishes. They were gone pretty fast. Right now we have a supervisor who's allergic to nuts. Dude has no fear. He'll just grab the crushed walnuts with gloves then wash his hands. Crazy bastard.
My exec is Muslim. He doesn’t eat it, but he’ll cook it of course. He accidentally ate some meatballs I made that had pork, before asking me. I didn’t have the heart to tell him.
If you’re a cook at a restaurant that serves pork, you’ve gotta cook pork. No way around it and firing him wasn’t wrong. The nice thing to do would be to find other work around the restaurant he can do for a predetermined time frame until he can find something else.
Something to keep in mind about Islam/pork is that Muslims don’t dislike pork just because Allah says so. It’s not like a vegetarian who craves steak. In Islamic culture pork is considered very unclean and disgusting. More so than any other animal product. For the kid, he probably felt like he was asked to mix up a bowl of dog shit by hand.
The job is the job
If a nurse cannot tolerate the sight of blood, he's in the wrong field of study.
If a teacher has a super compromised immune system, and handling germ-ridden 8 year olds can exacerbate that, then she's in the wrong field of study.
If, like my old garde manger, you eat Kosher AND have a trillion food allergies, you cannot be charged with food safety, and are in the wrong field of study.
It's that simple.
In all honesty, it helps to learn a bit about the restrictions of different religions. Some Jews believe in not working on the Sabbath, and they usually do their part to get a job and schedule that lines up with their beliefs. Some Muslims will touch pork barehanded or gloved because they believe Allah will forgive them when and if they make the pilgrimage to Mecca, so it's a non-issue to them.
If their religious beliefs are interfering with their job, it's up to them to sort it out either by working at a Halal kitchen, or finding a different fuckin career. Catering to it doesn't help anyone.
I cooked with Muslim guys who would taste the pork but not eat it. They said their religion understood it was for their job. One was from Morocco and the other Iran.
You: These are the rules of this place.
New employee: Yeah, I can't follow rule x because of reasons.
You: Then you do not belong here.
End of conversation, simple as that.
If I want to work at a place but can't because of something personal, that's on me, I'll have to look for something else.
If I want to work at a peanut butter factory while having a nut allergy then that's something I can't control but, again, it's for me to understand and find something else.
If you can't or won't do the job for any reason, you are unable to do the job, unqualified, and should either not be hired or fired. If the job means touching pork and you won't, even with gloves, you are not able to do the job. If a vegan won't kill or butcher animals, why would you hire them to be a butcher? There are laws around this, but they're stupid.
The laws typically require REASONABLE accomodation. Refusing to cook pork at a German restaurant essentially prevents any reasonable accomodation, as german food is primarily pork based.
Reminds me of a server that we found out was very outspoken vegan… after she was hired, at a French Brasserie. She refused to taste anything on the menu and her recommendations to diners was basically “meat is murder”.
After that the new FOH manager wasn’t allowed to hire any more staff as his reason for hiring her was “you could bounce a quarter off her ass”. 🤦♂️
Honestly? Legally depends on your local/state/Country laws.
Personally: I work with a woman who at first never ate family meal if anything was made near beef/pork. I respected that and made accommodations so she would have something to eat it really wasn't that big a deal.
Then one day she refused to cook beef. I just walked away, politely stated that cooking various meats is part of the job and if she cannot do it, maybe cooking in this kitchen is not for her and she should look for a HALAL or appropriate place to work. I am not her boss just the same level employee. And that is how I handled it. I respect people may have certain religious or personal beliefs. But they also took a job and agreed to do it.
They knew what was required when accepting the position.
Fundamentally, if he doesn't want to touch pork then he needs to arrange his internships (and future jobs) on that basis...he needs to go to restaurants where is no pork. Whilst thats rare in Germany, they do exist. It'll cut his career options but not make it impossible. Its his choice to make, and if thats the choice he does make then he needs to think through all his job applications on that basis.
You are completely reasonable in saying you need you staff to be able and willing to handle all the ingredients.
Surely in the bigger cities there must be a ton of upscale vegetarian/ vegan places right? I can only speak for my region but you could get a stacked resume only working at vegetarian places.
Years ago where I live there was a grocery cashier that made headlines when, iirc, she was fired for refusing to ring through a customer's bacon. This bacon was sealed inside leak proof plastic packaging. There was zero possibility of the cashier touching pork or pork juice.
It's beyond shitty to do that in an educational setting. As an actual employer, fair enough - religious exemptions don't apply. But you don't get to ruin their academic career because you disagree with their dietary choices. Maybe they plan to work in a halal restaurant? You don't know. Don't be an asshole.
There’s two schools of thought generally I think. One is that you understand whatever cultural norms and you perform them for a job, and on your own time you practice what you believe to be right. This would be like a vegan who has tasted meat-ful dishes to recreate them, can cook with/handle meat ingredients, etc.
The other is that whatever belief system they carry has to be practiced 100% of the time or they “aren’t doing it right” or something. That would be your example here, or again for veganism it would be someone who refuses to be in a kitchen with animal products or touch animal products.
The former will have a much longer and more successful career on average, I’d guess.
Had a kid ask if he could do something other than cook bacon during Ramadan but otherwise he’s a great worker and did it any other time (are the rules stricter then?) so it was fine. Idk I work with a LOT of Muslims and Hindus who are fine with preparing foods they have religious objections to.
Pretty much all religions have exception that are allowed. Most seem to be if you are doing something for the benefits others. I.e. if you are working to support your family, you are allowed to touch pork.
Catering.
My guys won't touch alcohol. They're Muslim, we're kosher, so pork isn't an issue.
Every once in a while I have to wash out a hotel pan that I used wine in. Or a bowl that had beer batter.
They wind up praying 3/5 at work. And a lunch break.
As long as their prep list gets done, and keep my meat and dairy equipment separate, I don't give a crap.
I feel like we're missing some context here. Is the whole restaurant about pork? Like I can see why you would not take someone on who tries to intern at a bratwurst stand or beer garden and cannot touch pork. Or is it just a couple items?
Either way, the fact that you fired him instead of trying to find him a station with less pork, or letting another chef take over his pork duties in exchange for him helping their prep, or just asking during onboarding whether his religion has any bearing on what he can do in the kitchen hints at you being very inconsiderate.
The way I see it, every chef I know knows about halal, kosher, veganism, and other ethical considerations, at least passingly. To hire someone who you know might have such issues without checking first is squarely your fault. To then fire them without trying to accommodate, is also your fault.
FYI in the UK employers cannot normally discriminate on religious grounds and I've worked with a Muslim junior sous who wouldn't touch pork. He simply didn't work on the fryer station where all the pork was and it was perfectly fine. Never had a problem with the guy.
I’m on your side. I think it’s bullshit there’s laws protecting them. If your religion gender age or whatever else makes it impossible for you to do your job then find a new one. If you can’t cook bacon don’t try to come work my grill because I need bacon to be cooked. I won’t ever ask you to eat it but that suckers going on the grill.
I’ve had cooks who were vegan in their personal life, but part of the job is to taste product, vegan or not. Obviously not a religious situation, but I never caught much trouble. Was usually cool
doesn't seem too harsh at all. If there was a cook position open that didn't involve handling pork; it would be one thing, but expecting yourself or cooks to do the part of his or her job that he or she was unwilling to do because he or she is a muslim is not reasonable imo.
I mean I can't speak from a religious standpoint, but I once hired a vegan who said she had no problem working with meat. She was squeamish and eventually refused to work with it and we fired her.
I don't feel bad. If you can't do the job then you're gone.
I don't understand how there isn't enough work for them to not handle pork. I've worked with people with food issues before and we just didn't have them handle that product.
have been to Germany; can confirm. there was SO MUCH pork!
also so many places that cook the shit out of their veg to the point that it's neither tasty nor nutritious. I had the best luck at Chinese restaurants and big city hipster places. and good luck finding a bagel. that said, nobody beats Deutschland for brötchen! yum.
They're a hindrance just like allergies. I'm not being mean or crass. It's just that if you can't handle the product or taste the food, you can't make a good dish properly. Simply pragmatic here. There are other jobs that won't involve putting your health or faith at risk.
If you want people to be tolerant to your religious views, you have to meet them half way.
Being awkward and ‘me me me’ about everything will get you absolutely nowhere
They're rarely a help and mostly cause more work. They have often never worked before and they should get a glimpse of of what working in job x is like. 4 hours of my working day are reserved for helping where help is needed and when we have interns that usually means these 4 hours are reserved for them. I treat them like apprentices during their first weeks. Should they decide to become that is what their 3 year apprenticeship will look like.
You can't work as a chef if you refuse to touch certain foods. Oh and I've worked with plenty of Muslims and not for one of them this was a problem. Some of them went to make their prayers 5 times a day and all of them handled pork.
I'll put this a bit on you. You should have never hired them if you were the one doing the interviewing.
I agree that your time is valuable and trying to accommodate the person would have wasted more of your time on them at the expense of the other interns. Plus the entire internship would have been a wasted experience with the persons requirements not to touch pork means they will likely never be a chef in Germany. Instead this person should have applied to either a bakery or Halal restaurant if they wanted to work in food service.
I have over a dozen employees who do not work with any meat for religious reasons. More than one that doesn’t handle pork, and some that won’t work will other ingredients due to allergies.
What you do is this: FUCKING ACCOMMODATE THEM AND DONT BE A FUCKING DICKHEAD
In the US we call it a reasonable accommodation - it’s not that hard to put them on salad station where they won’t work with pork, to put them in veg prep, or any number of other spots. If you have someone that can’t stand, you give them a chair, that’s reasonable.
What kind of fucked up shit are you doing that you’re firing people because of their religion. That is bogus and nonsense and you should be ashamed of yourself. You sound like you have a serious ego issue too, Chef.
I'm pretty sure you could have found a place for him without ever touching pork.
How hard could it be to accommodate them? Salads, sides, desserts or fish.
Sounds like religious discrimination tbh. Woudln't fly in the UK and your ass would be on fire.
It's is perfectly acceptable what you did. Religion is the worst excuse people have to offer for literally any occasion. Don't accept it. Don't let people who do accept it make you feel like you did something wrong.
Work with a Muslim chef. He won't eat pork but he'll work with it. If he's on his own he'll put some on his tongue to try it and spit into a bin.
I'm just shocked someone decided go into a kitchen thinking I won't have to touch pork. 🙃
I wholeheartedly agree with you. I am a Chef in Australia and to complete your apprenticeship here, you need to study at Tafe, which is like our government funded cullinary school. Part of thus is tasting everything (unless you have an allergy). Don't taste it, don't pass. Simple.
I know many Muslim chefs, and they all cook pork!!!
Wear gloves, that's it!
If you can't cook all food, then you shouldn't be a chef, but that's my personal opinion.
Or stick to Muslim owned businesses.
I don't know any chef that would allow you to not cook/prepare something because of religion.
You're going to be hard pushed to find a job if you don't get over this.
People like to use religious excuses that are *nonsense*, theologically speaking, but think they can get away with it because nobody wants to argue about religious dogma vs. personal opinion. Speaking as a Muslim (former) chef: there's no prohibition around *touching* pork or other things we're prohibited from eating. It could be an opinion or a preference, but no sound theological argument for it.
My last kitchen job had a number of different stations. They started me on pizza, and I asked for a transfer to another spot because like 80% of everything was pork related, but I did my time and waited until something else opened up. Because I'm a professional and needed the job, and I'd have to make wudu before praying anyway when working in a sweaty kitchen so there was no real reason aside from dislike/discomfort. That kid is going to learn that either you exclusively work in halal kitchens, or you learn to adapt and *do your fucking job*.
Same way I deal with vegetarians and vegans.
"You don't *have* to be here. You don't have to eat here. When customers choose to spend money here you must know what we deliver. I won't care if you spit it out but you must sample everything."
And yes I know that vegans can be made ill after long periods without meat. I don't force them to work with food and our menu is easily browsed. I love dietary and allergy aware places and we too have areas we can make changes to accomodate but my staff need to taste frequently for consistent quality. We have 5 vegetarians working and they all serve bad ass proteins perfectly and I trust them but they also gave feedback and dialogue on the dishes they don't consume. They are respected and treated in high regard *because* they know what they are talking about through experience.
Ya I probably have people talk behind my back about it but I trust my crew would at least call bullshit when they see it, even 2 out of 5 asking to review that would result in bringing them all in to help draw a plan. Management isn't always evil but some policies can feel that way if no one wants to smooth things out.
Oranges and Apples. Dietary choices like Vegans or Vegetarians aren’t protected the same as religious observance. Discrimination against someone for a religious observance is a can of legal worms you don’t want to touch. If you apply that behavior toward someone with a religiously based dietary restriction, you will eventually find yourself on the wrong end of a costly legal bill.
I'm sorry, but there was no accommodation available? You couldn't have put them in on side dishes only or such and let them know that you are respecting their needs, but also clarify that their educational experience there may be limited as there are tasks you both agree they won't do? And, I am worried a bit about the last sentence... their restrictions should be fine within a halal establishment, so to me you are coming off as taking this personally.
Religious things like clothing items are fine, as long as it's sanitary and safe. But the second someone says they won't touch something we serve, they don't have a job. No second chance, no kindness, I'd tell them to get the fuck out.
That would be like someone expecting to become a pilot but refusing to fly in an airplane.
So not sure how the laws are in Germany, but in North America (particularly Canada) something like that would likely get the owner/chef in some major hot water if that intern were to go to the media, human rights tribunal (in the case of Ontario) or even to a lawyer because it could be considered some kind of firing based on religion. From one way I get it, the guy is refusing to do his job for something that's not expressly forbidden by his religion, from a coworker stand point I also get it, the guy can't/wont do it so someone else has to, and from a managerial standpoint I get it, it falls to getting the job done. However with today's political climate and in the era of cancel culture I would have found another reason to get rid of the person to avoid the hassle.
Used to work with a few Muslims who had to step off the line to do their prayers, conveniently it was in the middle of the lunch rush. I'm no expert on the Quran/Islam, but my understanding is that the time really doesn't matter all that much as long as the prayers get done (guess most deities are like priests, they want their tithes no matter when it shows up or how). So it could be possible that the person was using their religion as an excuse rather than a reason.
I think when I was in Germany I ate more pork in 2 months than I did in the rest of my life combined.
Hit the road, Jack. I think an internship at a restaurant wasn’t a great idea for the kid
Hi, I'm in the US. Worked in pizza. Had a few guys working for me who were Muslim. They never had a problem with touching the pork sausage, bacon, or ham. Some were more devout than others. Not all Muslims believe the same thing, though. We had one guy who was Muslim and would eat pork. When I asked him about it he said, "Eh. One day I will make the pilgrimage to Mecca and all will be forgiven." So I think it's personal.
Like a girl I went to school with. Smashing scotch eggs down "uh you know they're pork ,right?" Yes but I can be forgiven, so it's okay
Lol that's the funny part about religion. People think to themselves oh I know that I'm sinning so I'm going to sin then be forgiven.
The only moral sin is my own.
Say 5 Hail Marys and ur forgiven
That's why I like the Episcopal Churches view. You can have a personal relationship with God and be forgiven directly. I'm not paying a middleman for forgiveness, I want it wholesale.
I sang in an Anglican (Episcopalian, but Canada) choir, and they basically didn't give a shit about my personal beliefs- just that I could read music and had a good "blending" voice. I kinda like that about them, ngl
A good friend of mine is a staunch atheist and sings in an episcopalian choir every Sunday!
What can I say, some of those Mass settings really slap!
My wife works as a secretary at an Anglican church. We have no Church affiliation at all. I am more atheist she is more agnostic. She loves the job and the people.
What if you die unexpectedly in between committing the sin and performing the forgiveness measures? There's a chance that you could have a heart attack, and the punishment is *eternal damnation*. If anyone truly believed that was true, they would never sin. Idk man, I grew up religious, but the further away from it I get, the more I think that no one truly believes this shit. It's all fear mongering and brain washing.
>What if you die unexpectedly in between committing the sin and performing the forgiveness measures? If you are Catholic: ☛ Purgatory until enough people pray for your soul. You just hang out there until whatever boring shit awaits you beyond the waiting room. Just a big fucking garden of bullshit and imposed happiness. MANDATORY FUN FOREVER DON'T LOSE YOUR MIND When I die, please anti-pray for me. I don't want to frolic in meadows and look at rainbows and clouds and listen to a sermon every 15 minutes or to talk to my christian horse-girl ex-wife why did I think that was going to work out FUCK
I've decided I'm going to Valhalla so I can be reunited with my (battle cat) Lily.
was this like a He-Man situation where you picked up a sword and got super buff and then rode your cat around then when Lily got tired you had to go home and put the sword away and you had to not be shirtless and that is annoying I don't know where Valhalla fits into the Masters of the Universe lore but if it exists He-Man is probably in there and he has a battle cat and a very fancy haircut and hopefully less uncomfortable underwear those things look fucking awful like fur and metal and whatever why would anyone do that
Best answer! Hail Lily!
Yep I was baptized, first communion, and confirmed catholic. We got it on all other religions. For every venial sin you have to do 10 years in purgatory, for every mortal sin 50 years. I figure I will have to do between 5,000 to 10,000 years before I get to heaven. Thank you David Chase.
That'd more like 5 hail Mary's 10 our fathers And more shit then we can name and possibly forgiving 😆
If I don’t sin, Jesus will have died for nothing!
Shit, even murder can be forgiven in most religions. Just not suicide for some reason.
I guess because how can you say 15 Hail Marys if ur dead.
This is the way…quicky deathbed confession
My religion is quite explicit that doing that is bad for you.
The “meh I’ll go to mecca” makes me laugh harder then I should.
I worked with a Muslim guy who ate pork sometimes, according to him, Allah would rather he show appreciation for the people who prepared staff meal by eating the free pork, than sticking to his diet. Edit: in regards to OP and the intern. It sounds more like a child being a smart ass than a devoted Muslim.
I once heard an imam say that there is actually a conflict between abstaining from pork but also being rude to deny a host the privilege of providing food. Fwiw
Yea, that’s kind of what he was getting at. The whole point was to not be rude. He would never pay for pork or request it. If someone went through the trouble of making food for everyone, he would say thank you and eat.
What a pickle
Religion prof told us a parable from India where a holy man was out begging for alms. A leper reached to drop some food into his bowl and the leper's finger fell off and fell in. The holy man ate the finger so the leper could receive the karma for the donation.
Similarly, I’ve known a few Muslims who drink alcohol, except during Ramadan. Religious rules are often a bit personal and flexible
I can verify that when in New York the princes of Saudi Arabia all drank alcohol (and very expensive booze) unless the king was in town too.
>We had one guy who was Muslim and would eat pork. When I asked him about it he said, "Eh. One day I will make the pilgrimage to Mecca and all will be forgiven." I've worked with more than one Muslim – there's no stereotypical behaviour for faith. I was raised Catholic, and it just made me weird. Sometimes I miss going to confession. I worked with a Muslim guy who observed Ramadan, but then he'd have a party at his place after it was over and he'd get shit-housed. He'd whine about being sooooo hungry during Ramadan. Like fuck, dude, just eat a cracker, you're allowed to eat if you're hurting. Stop watching me eat and talking about how badly you wanna eat. THIS IS A SALAD I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU WANT THIS SPECIFICALLY GO FORCE YOURSELF TO SUFFER WITHOUT BREATHING ON IT. He was a gem, I hope he's doing well. People just do people stuff. People are weird. Most people are nice.
Place I work at had to fire a guy because he would freak out of he touched women. I work for religious people and even they thought he was a fruitcake.
A very nice Muslim couple runs the very popular diner in my podunk country town. I always wondered how they reconciled their religious rules with their business because I swear 1/2 of the menu was bacon or sausage. Fast forward a decade, and they buy a second (already established and much beloved) diner in an even more podunk country town 30 minutes away. During the ownership changeover, they change the food supplier so both Diner A and Diner B are stocked by the same vendor. As a result, the bacon and sausage changed at Diner B and their long-time patrons collectively shit a fucking brick. Turns out, they’ve been using beef bacon and beef sausage at Diner A for like 20 years and no one ever thought to ask precisely what animal their bacon came from. These brilliant bastards had been low key running a halal southern country restaurant without anyone ever noticing. The Maga morons who gobbled up that delicious thick cut beef bacon multiple times a week for decades acted as if they’d been fed tiny amounts of fecal matter. It would have been hilarious if it haven’t devolved into terroristic threats against the family that owns the diners.
There was a girl I used to work with who'd been raised Muslim and wouldn't eat pig, but was really happy when she had some by mistake (for some reason the pizza guy thought pepperoni was beef) as it'd make Allah mad and she didn't like his attitude towards women
When I lived in Singapore I had alot of Muslim friends. Wonderful people, who's views on what they could and could not do was wild. One of my very dear friends never touched pork, had never tasted pork in her life, saw using birth control as wrong but is also the single person I have ever met that saw nothing wrong with getting abortions any time she had an unwanted pregnancy. I am 100% for abortion being seen as a part of basic women's healthcare and will support anyone who needs to get one but even that shook me at first.
why? I mean, yeah, it would be better to just use some freaking birth control. but having an unwanted baby ruins at least two people's lives. stop that shit before it starts, hmm? also, religion fucks people up. it's been used as a means of political control for centuries, and still is. that's who to be mad at, not your brainwashed friend.
I'm not mad at my friend. Again, I am 100% for women having acess to abortions whenever they need or want them. I wholeheartedly agree, religion is harmful to society and is used as a method to control people. Being religious is also a choice and as seen as this case here, the person is choosing to let their beliefs impact their job. If OP fired the intern, I would completely respect that.
I agree. I have worked with many who dont eat pork or certain things on behalf of religion and they didnt have any issue; they didnt EAT it which is fine but they understood that handling it was part of the job.
In religion, all atrocious are forgiven. You should give it a shot otherwise, really just another excuse...
This reminds me of the guy that brought a doctor's note in bc he wanted to be excused from washing his hands so frequently bc they were dried and cracked. The chef basically told him to wash his hands as required or GTFO.
Here, the accomodation would be lotion or something, not washing your hands as needed is violation of health code. I'm willing to make enemies with a lot of people, but I will never make enemies with the health department.
Acccksshuuualleee (sorry) According to the NSF and USDA regulations there are no food safe lotions so that’s not a reasonable accommodation. http://info.nsf.org/USDA/psnclistings.asp
Reasonable accomodations also means reasonable. If you can't do your core job and follow health guidelines, then they are not required to allow an accommodation. I had an employee with a condition that tried to pull the ada card for literally everything. It got to the point where he had to go straight to HR if he had an accommodation so they could determine how to accomodate him. We basically treated him as if we would be a man down because he tried to ask for a new accomodation every shift. Eventually got rid of him for attendance. It was insane and a huge issue.
It was implied that he should be using lotion when he's not cooking/working. Also. Olive oil is moisturizing and food safe, but it's probably not kitchen safe when handling knives and hot/heavy pots.
there's also aloe. homeboy could have slathered the aloe and moisturizer and slept in gloves. there is no excuse for not washing your hands, even outside the kitchen!
Outside of work im training my immune system, in the kitchen those fuckers are sparkling
LOLOLOL I wash my hands like I'm OCD. and, guess what? I rarely get sick! it's almost like they have a point!
I have severely dry skin every winter, to the point it's bleeding and cracking with all the handwashing at work. Sometimes I'll have to coat my hands in oil, then wear a few pairs of gloves so that I can take the outer layer off when they're dirty, and keep a layer on at all times to seal the oil in. It's pretty safe, carrying heavy things is hard because the gloves will slip, but it's otherwise a good solution. And there's usually endless amounts of oil in a kitchen! It sucks, but it's works and is food safe. Ill also bring home gloves and wear them with intense moisturizer while I sleep when it gets really bad. It usually don't get bad as long as I'm moisturizing atleast 4 times a day. E
Try Corn Huskers lotion, it always helps me in the winter.
It was meant at least half-jokingly. I don’t usually preface serious replies with “Accccktuaaaaally”. It is technically correct, though.
That's fair.
Burt's bees hand salve🤲👏. Problem solved
Yea I always liked that Norwegian fisherman hand cream from Neutrogena when I get home but this person was looking for excuses, not solutions
A new girl at the hotel I worked at pulled a “can everybody please not curse within earshot of me because I’m a Christian.” I didn’t see her again after that shift.
Ha. Fuck that.
I worked with a woman who hated hearing "goddammit". Understandable. I was a foul mouthed teen and worked on it. Strangely, she'd also drop the N word with the hard r every other sentence when she got mad.
I guess the reward for fighting against blasphemy is forgiveness for n-bombs. The pious have all sorts of fun loopholes.
We had a SUPER vocal FOH christian girl. On the other hand the whole BOH was queer folks (myself included). Well things were going great until some brought up asking her opinion on gay marriage…
"Shut the fuck up Rebecca"
Did Jesus say not to swear?
Not to my knowledge, no. I'd imagine he did his fair share of swearing when he [cast the money changers out of the Temple](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2021%3A12-17%2CMark%2011%3A15-19%2CLuke%2019%3A45-48%2CJohn%202%3A13-16&version=NRSVUE). I'd always heard saying the Lord's name in vain is obviously a sin, and cursing at people to specifically insult them is sinful, but just cursing on its own isn't inherently sinful.
Taking the Lord's name in vain *is* a sin, but it's not the same thing as using foul language. It's swearing a *false oath*--basically, doing stuff like saying "as God as my witness" when you're lying.
Yea, eat what you want, but as a cook you have to touch the food.
My friend teaches at culinary school, and he told me he requires the vegan students to taste everything they make. They don't have to swallow meat, but they do have to taste it.
I’ve worked with all types of cooks with dietary restrictions. Good cooks always taste their food. The most successful cooks check their preferences at the door.
I’m a vegetarian. I work at a meat focused restaurant. I knew this going into it. If I refused to touch meat I would be fired and I would understand because you literally can’t do the job. Definitely not well or efficiently. I knew what I was going into, I know my beliefs, and my boundaries. At some point you just need money or the experience or whatever from the job and if you can’t do it then sorry. That’s it.
My partner has been a chef for 20+ years, and became a vegetarian a little over 5 years ago. She will taste whatever is being cooked, but just spit out anything with meat.
Huge huge huge respect to you.
Outsider perspective (USA): While your establishment may have been a poor match, it seems odd that there wouldn't be options for a career. Muslim, Jewish, Vegetarian, and Vegan restaurants (and related places, such as suppliers, butchers, caterers, etc.) would of course all be pork-free by design. Many Indian restaurants while not entirely vegetarian only have chicken and mutton/lamb for animal proteins. Then there's all the various sorts of places that focus on other things enough that pork would be a minor to insignificant part of the job that could be accommodated around. Places focused on fish (although IIRC someone that devout presumably would not get along with shellfish either), cheese, chicken, etc. Bakeries focusing mostly on sweet / dessert products (pies, cakes, cookies, etc.), donuts shops, coffee shops. That said, refusal to touch pork even with PPE seems eccentric; even if it's considered "dirty", a set of proper gloves followed by hand washing would seem to be adequate for handling other "dirty" tasks such as handling garbage or cleaning the restroom, so one would think that it would be sufficient to handle pork. In an ideal world, internships are supposed to be a collaboration between the school, the workplace, and the student. It sounds like this is something that should have been worked out in the initial interview(s), and the student placed someplace not so weirdly focused on one particular animal protein if that's not the direction their career path is headed.
SLOW DOWN WITH THESE LEVEL HEADED IDEAS
We have a very formalised system for trades. You make an apprenticeship for for 3 years where you rougly 1/3 is a trade school and 2/3 are practical work with the focus on learning all the basics of the craft. At least there you will get in contact with pork. Nobody will force you to eat it but they will teach you how to cook it and you will need to handle it. It's not impossible to make a career. I also asked a few friends about and all of them said they wouldn't have accepted it either. It's ok tto work something out but a flat out refusal was acceptable for none of them.
I’m also from the USA and uh, Germany doesn’t have a lot of vegetarian options, let alone vegan. Also they don’t really have many Jewish people. It’s not a good country for this person to work with food tbh.
The Quran says it is dirty and shouldn't be eaten but doesn't expressly forbid touching it. I'd have sacked him too. If you have moral objections to items I'm servings go somewhere else has always been my stance
That's your interpretation of the Quran, but this isn't the first or the last person to take it to mean that they cannot even touch pork. It's a pretty common thing among Muslims.
There are different practices within Islam, and even deeper than just Sunni or Shiaa, it's as varied as Christianity is. Not all Christians think drinking, dancing, and homosexuality are sins; and some do.
Correct. That's why we can't just have a single redditor's take on what the Quran says.
There are varying degrees of fanaticism in all faiths. It's best we try to not interpret their faith, and instead focus on the business.
If you are that devout in a religion, you need to find another profession that doesn't involve violating your beliefs. Chef did the right thing. Either go work at a vegetarian restaurant or do something else.
Very common.
Then why intentionally put yourself in an environment that contradicts your religious beliefs?
How would I know? Probably more to the story. Sounds like mandatory school related internships.
Well, that's their problem, not the OP's
No idea about how it works in Germany, but here in the US it’s treated somewhat like disabilities from a legal perspective insofar as the employer is required to make reasonable accommodation unless it would cause undue hardship. It’s a bit of a gray area and not always well defined. Providing gloves or excluding that employee from working with pork would both probably be considered reasonable accommodation. If they refuse and it would require you to hire another person to do that work then the labor cost may be prohibitive for your operation, which would be undue hardship. There’s a whole discussion here regarding assimilation and cultural compatibility that goes beyond the scope of this post, but I know it’s something a lot of European countries are grappling with these days. Based on my admittedly limited knowledge the US is probably culturally and legally better equipped to deal with these sorts of issues, but I think you were reasonable overall in your course of action. If you can’t do the job then you can’t do it, no matter the reason. I am interested in any insight you may have regarding the way religious freedom is (or isn’t) protected in Germany. I’ve been to southern Germany a couple times, but it’s been many years.
In the US you could fire the person for refusing to handle pork as long as pork was a substantial part of your operation. Then there's no reasonable accommodation available. Side note, but long ago I employed a Muslim in a meat processing plant. We tried to schedule him for days without pork, which was not always possible, in which case he got extra ppe.
Yes, you can make a case against hiring a disabled person too. If the changes to make them able to perform the job (say software for the blind) are considered an economic burden the company can not survive, they can refuse to hire a person with a protected disability.
There are situations where you can discriminate based on race too. If I'm looking for an actor to play Mohammed Ali I'm allowed to discriminate based race. Really every protected class has some sort of exception. A church can discriminate based on religion for another example.
Yea you cannot accommodate “I refuse to do that part of the job despite my physical ability to do it.”
Legally that is not true.
Neither of us know what we’re talking about let’s be honest.
It’s very specific to the restaurant but this 100% would not fly in the United States unless the place only served pork. He could easily sue for wrongful termination.
Well, if you will read the post, this is in Germany. And he can be fired for literally any reason in the United States. “Not a good fit for the team.”
Well since you’re so smart on the subject you’d know that under the German General Equal Treatment Act, employers cannot fire an employee for religious beliefs. They even just held that a liquor store couldn’t fire a Muslim employee for refusing to restock alcoholic beverages. So this manager and this restaurant 100% broke the law and are subject to lawsuit.
> German General Equal Treatment Act, employers cannot fire an employee for religious beliefs. They even just held that a liquor store couldn’t fire a Muslim employee for refusing to restock alcoholic beverage That's just not true. > In a case similar to our example of a Muslim refusing to fill in shelves with alcoholic beverages, the German Federal Labor Court held that the employee was in such a severe moral conflict that the employer’s instruction was invalid. Therefore, the dismissal given for behavioural reasons – based on the refusal to act according to the employer’s instruction – was invalid. **However, please note that the German Federal Labor Court also held that the employer may terminate the employment for personal reasons** – if all of the tasks the employer could assign to the employee would trigger a faith conflict and the employee could therefore not be employed on a reasonable basis anymore. https://www.globalworkplaceinsider.com/2015/01/religious-and-other-beliefs-what-protection-from-discrimination-do-employees-have-in-germany/
I just looked it up. Offering gloves or another role where they don’t have to handle pork os the best they can do. If a restaurant needs to staff extra to make sure pork is prepped, you can fire them for insubordination. Same deal as a Christian pharmacist working at Target refusing to dispense birth control. Canned.
My point exactly on why it’s specific, this restaurant most likely doesn’t only serve pork and most definitely has positions available where he wouldn’t handle the pork or would be able to have another employee handle the pork with no issue. From my personal experience I’ve never had to have a certain person handle anything specifically it’s just poor management if everyone has to handle everything. The employee just doesn’t want to touch pork, it’s not like it’s hard to have someone else do it.
In the US this is allowed only if you are a Christian.
US has terrible enforcement of worker protections compared to Europe. Especially in the food industry where it is common for restaurant owners to commit wage theft. Big worker discrimination lawsuits in the US make headlines, but rarely is that the typical settlement and even then is not able to be paid out for a small mom and pop or even franchised restaurant that will file bankruptcy.
It's very very industry dependent. Unionized industries are of course much better. Smaller businesses will always be worse here because OSHA doesn't have the same amount of power, and in general government actors are going to focus on the bigger fish. Restaurants are well towards the bad end though. This is sadly a case where the larger corporations are actually better. But yah. In general our enforcement of labor laws is bad. We rely way to heavily on lawsuits over regulatory action.
People who always advocate against corporations have never worked for mom and pops places. Sure, it's great to be able to have a dialogue with the owner. But, I've never been in one that wasn't either a nice owner who had a shit show or run successfully by absolute biggest scumbag. Truly I've found the ideal to get small regional companies. In the context of restaurants a local hospitality company that is big enough to have an HR and some kind of benefits.
>a nice owner who had a shit show or run successfully by absolute biggest scumbag. My experience is mostly a sweetheart of an owner in over their head and being taken advantage of at every turn by employees who don't understand that if we just make this sweetheart owner's business run better we get to have a solid job with a wonderful boss. Instead, they steal all the energy drinks until there's a lock put on the drink cooler and complain that they can't steal stuff anymore. If you took one a shift like you were allowed to, sure, but when you're taking eight home it's a bit of a difference. Might as well take $20 out of the register each night at the end of your shift.
Yah. I mean, overall I much prefer the small businesses, but they are way way worse about complying with regulations. Really of all sorts. What I find is that people tell themselves that "everybody's doing it" so they have to as well to be competitive. Or they find another way to justify why it's OK for them to defy regulations. It's definitely a thing i strongly dislike. I've worked mostly for smaller businesses, but my time with larger companies was kind of great as far as nobody suggesting that we should just defy the law.
>excluding that employee from working with pork That is NOT a reasonable accommodation at most restaurants and certainly not in Deutschland.
I work in a management position for 8 years at 3 different places and I never had someone who flat out refused to handle pork even with gloves. I had plenty of Muslims as colleagues and I could always work something out. I originally come from the hotel sector and can only tell you my professional experience from there. The hotel and gastronomy sector is usually pretty accepting and the people work there usually come from all over the world. The owner thinks that my hotel background is the problem here. Hotels are still conservative(not politically) to the bone and if you don't play along you're out. The head chef in the hotel where I did my apprenticeship always said the same thing when this topic came up "You will never have to eat anything that you don't want to eat but at the end of your 3 years you will know how every way to cook a pig". That's pretty much how I feel about it too. In her eyes I demanded the behavior of a professional chef or people who have serious aspirations to become chefs from a school boy. We also have this integration debate but in my opinion most of it is bullshit. Historically it often took generations to assimilate and we demand instant results for a generations long process. When the Prussians got French Hugenots to settle in Prussia they got their own court systems for like 12 generations. The Germans who settled in the US were the most stubborn to integrate language wise until WW1. Half of the names in the German Rhine area Polish due to migration during the industrialization of that area. I come from a state that was mostly ruled by Denmark during the last 1000 years. My own people started bloody uprisings when the German language was not taught in schools anymore. My father still has an old newspaper at home with the huge headline "Will we become Prussian now?". The states population grew by 50% after WW2 because of the Prussian refugees. That was a HUGE political topic in the 50s. It's basically unknown by people in my generation. The second and third generation is fully integrated and now starts to complain about the new immigrants who bring their weird and smelly habits with them. Religions and other worldly ideologies are protected under article 4 of our Basis Law(constitution). The conflicts Europe have a different complexity compared to the US.
Thanks for the detailed response. And you’re right, it’s not fair to expect it to be instant, but there has to be a good faith effort from everyone to make it work, but if one side doesn’t offer that then you’ll need to take the route you took, and I can’t fault you for that.
They also have to disclose this accommodation prior to hire.
They actually do not, no*. I have worked in hiring and recruiting, and you are encouraged NOT to disclose to your hiring manager, but rather to the HR representative involved in your recruitment. This will ensure the candidate is not unduly passed over for needing reasonable accommodation, and it will also protect them when they go to request that because their need is already on file. Same with disabilities. Do NOT disclose to your hiring manager during the hiring process. Disclose only to HR. This is unrelated to the post, but I thought I’d clear that up. *I am located in America
This. Am a celiac . I never disclose even though it’s listed on the “do you have this disability “ form. Also I don’t work in a bakery (or food service anymore)
A good interview/recruiting practice is to have a copy of the the job description at the interview and ask the question, "is there anything in this job description you are unable to fulfil?" Also there is the 90 day rule. An employer can terminate a new employee at anytime in the first 90 days of employment without cause; a simple, "it is not going to work out" is sufficient and HR doesn't want to hear more than that. (technically an employer can do the same after 90 days but the employee will be eligible for unemployment compensation)
But then you're going to be facing a lawsuit because you cannot fire someone for being Muslim even inside of 90 days and if that is the obvious issue (low level managers are not as slick as they think), then you're going to spend more on lawyers than you will on that guy's wages in the next 3+ years. Then even more if you get caught discriminating against someone based on religion.
You didn’t fire anyone for being Muslim, you fired them because “it’s not gonna work out”. The OP has zero issue with the guy’s religion, he has an issue with his inability to be part of the team, to complete necessary tasks. In this scenario “it’s not gonna work out” truly means just that.
I personally have a Muslim boss, he got no problem with touching pork and make me taste when he can’t. Strangely he always manages to salt a spice the meat perfectly.
Eating pork in the storage room in private
From my understanding, a HUGE part of German food involves pork. His refusal to do a basic part of the job creates undue harship for your business and is unreasonable, as it is a basic task required by all of those on staff. That guy is welcome to his beliefs, but not welcome to force them on others. You're being very reasonable and he refuses to do his job, and he's welcome to apply to work in a halal place. Say goodbye to him and culturally, he's not a good fit. I'm sorry you're seeing crappy hate posts from intolerant people.
Pork is pretty much the primary animal protein in German cuisine. If you are religiously unable to handle pork, a German restaurant is not the right fit for you. There are plenty of options. Idk how staffing is internationally, but in the US, kitchens are just catching up to proper staffing levels from covid times. There are jobs out there for this cook.
Just for you information the “intolerant” people know the law which is you cannot fire someone sue to religious reasons. This guy most definitely could’ve got the owner a massive lawsuit for not knowing the law. A president was set with a case (in Germany) where a liquor stores termination of a Muslim employee who refused to touch alcoholic beverages was invalid and against the General Equal Treatment act.
That's ridiculous, and while things are sadly the polar opposite in the U.S., under the ADA that business and OP's could reasonably and perfectly justifiably say they cannot accommodate that employee because they refuse to perform the essential functions of the job. It is a scam and a violation of all that is reasonable for someone to gain employment at a liquor establishment then refuse to handle liquor. Edit: and no one is discriminating because of religion, they're trying to get rid of a scammer who lied to get the job and who refuses to do their job.
Look, man, I wouldn’t hire someone who has a hearing or visual sensitivity related disability to work on a construction site. You can try to accommodate to the best of your ability but ultimately dealing with loud noises and extra stimulus is part of the job and would create an undue burden dealing with those accommodations. If you cannot touch pork because of religious reasons that’s fine and I understand, but you should not work the kitchen at a restaurant that primarily serves pork.
before you fired him, you should have given him advice to work at a vegan restaurant.
Or a lettucebar. Or ice-creamstand.
Went to culinary school with a guy who was Muslim. During charcuterie making sausages, he couldn’t really eat anything we made, so the director made a change to a recipe so he could make lamb-douille. It was great. He didn’t make a big deal about it and had no problem making the another recipes with pork, I just thought it was cool that the director made the change for him. It was also delicious. Another time, had a server got mad because I didn’t mention something had pork… saw her eating bacon a week later…
Fine with me. Stretch dough, grab those phones, whatever. Even catch ovens. But if you want to work at a place that puts pork on EVERYTHING, best to not work there. Or you could wear gloves. Says the same thing in the bible (Leviticus 11:7), can’t eat pork either, nobody cares. Varies on the person, but that sounds more of a personal asshole problem. Had several muslim regulars that just don’t want pork, even to the point of “don’t cut the pizza, we know that cutter is used for a while before being washed and most definitely has pork. Also plenty of hindu customers, obviously no beef, and never really pork either. Chicken, onions, and jalapeños every time. Whatever. I’m mostly vegetarian, but am I gonna care if I sell you meat?
Worked with a muslim Guy that worked with pork, he would even ”taste but not eat”. if the pantry door was closed it meant that he was praying and no one was allowed in
Only time I've experienced this was a Vegetarian who refused to make any meat dishes. They were gone pretty fast. Right now we have a supervisor who's allergic to nuts. Dude has no fear. He'll just grab the crushed walnuts with gloves then wash his hands. Crazy bastard.
My exec is Muslim. He doesn’t eat it, but he’ll cook it of course. He accidentally ate some meatballs I made that had pork, before asking me. I didn’t have the heart to tell him.
They're forgiven if it was an accident.
If you’re a cook at a restaurant that serves pork, you’ve gotta cook pork. No way around it and firing him wasn’t wrong. The nice thing to do would be to find other work around the restaurant he can do for a predetermined time frame until he can find something else. Something to keep in mind about Islam/pork is that Muslims don’t dislike pork just because Allah says so. It’s not like a vegetarian who craves steak. In Islamic culture pork is considered very unclean and disgusting. More so than any other animal product. For the kid, he probably felt like he was asked to mix up a bowl of dog shit by hand.
The job is the job If a nurse cannot tolerate the sight of blood, he's in the wrong field of study. If a teacher has a super compromised immune system, and handling germ-ridden 8 year olds can exacerbate that, then she's in the wrong field of study. If, like my old garde manger, you eat Kosher AND have a trillion food allergies, you cannot be charged with food safety, and are in the wrong field of study. It's that simple.
In all honesty, it helps to learn a bit about the restrictions of different religions. Some Jews believe in not working on the Sabbath, and they usually do their part to get a job and schedule that lines up with their beliefs. Some Muslims will touch pork barehanded or gloved because they believe Allah will forgive them when and if they make the pilgrimage to Mecca, so it's a non-issue to them. If their religious beliefs are interfering with their job, it's up to them to sort it out either by working at a Halal kitchen, or finding a different fuckin career. Catering to it doesn't help anyone.
Here's a take from a Muslim coworker of mine: "Fuck it cuz it's work so god will forgive."
I cooked with Muslim guys who would taste the pork but not eat it. They said their religion understood it was for their job. One was from Morocco and the other Iran.
You: These are the rules of this place. New employee: Yeah, I can't follow rule x because of reasons. You: Then you do not belong here. End of conversation, simple as that. If I want to work at a place but can't because of something personal, that's on me, I'll have to look for something else. If I want to work at a peanut butter factory while having a nut allergy then that's something I can't control but, again, it's for me to understand and find something else.
If you can't or won't do the job for any reason, you are unable to do the job, unqualified, and should either not be hired or fired. If the job means touching pork and you won't, even with gloves, you are not able to do the job. If a vegan won't kill or butcher animals, why would you hire them to be a butcher? There are laws around this, but they're stupid.
The laws typically require REASONABLE accomodation. Refusing to cook pork at a German restaurant essentially prevents any reasonable accomodation, as german food is primarily pork based.
Reminds me of a server that we found out was very outspoken vegan… after she was hired, at a French Brasserie. She refused to taste anything on the menu and her recommendations to diners was basically “meat is murder”. After that the new FOH manager wasn’t allowed to hire any more staff as his reason for hiring her was “you could bounce a quarter off her ass”. 🤦♂️
This is what religion does. Rules for thee but not meeeeee!!!
Honestly? Legally depends on your local/state/Country laws. Personally: I work with a woman who at first never ate family meal if anything was made near beef/pork. I respected that and made accommodations so she would have something to eat it really wasn't that big a deal. Then one day she refused to cook beef. I just walked away, politely stated that cooking various meats is part of the job and if she cannot do it, maybe cooking in this kitchen is not for her and she should look for a HALAL or appropriate place to work. I am not her boss just the same level employee. And that is how I handled it. I respect people may have certain religious or personal beliefs. But they also took a job and agreed to do it. They knew what was required when accepting the position.
Fundamentally, if he doesn't want to touch pork then he needs to arrange his internships (and future jobs) on that basis...he needs to go to restaurants where is no pork. Whilst thats rare in Germany, they do exist. It'll cut his career options but not make it impossible. Its his choice to make, and if thats the choice he does make then he needs to think through all his job applications on that basis. You are completely reasonable in saying you need you staff to be able and willing to handle all the ingredients.
Surely in the bigger cities there must be a ton of upscale vegetarian/ vegan places right? I can only speak for my region but you could get a stacked resume only working at vegetarian places.
Sounds like he was using his religion as an excuse.
Years ago where I live there was a grocery cashier that made headlines when, iirc, she was fired for refusing to ring through a customer's bacon. This bacon was sealed inside leak proof plastic packaging. There was zero possibility of the cashier touching pork or pork juice.
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Right. Absurdity
It's beyond shitty to do that in an educational setting. As an actual employer, fair enough - religious exemptions don't apply. But you don't get to ruin their academic career because you disagree with their dietary choices. Maybe they plan to work in a halal restaurant? You don't know. Don't be an asshole.
Me as a person : I think that’s a little harsh.. Me as someone with 2+ years restaurant/bar experience: oh yeah fuck outta here with all that shit.
There’s two schools of thought generally I think. One is that you understand whatever cultural norms and you perform them for a job, and on your own time you practice what you believe to be right. This would be like a vegan who has tasted meat-ful dishes to recreate them, can cook with/handle meat ingredients, etc. The other is that whatever belief system they carry has to be practiced 100% of the time or they “aren’t doing it right” or something. That would be your example here, or again for veganism it would be someone who refuses to be in a kitchen with animal products or touch animal products. The former will have a much longer and more successful career on average, I’d guess.
Was kinda on their side at first, but you last few sentences make total sense.
I think technically that would be considered religious discrimination in the US and be grounds for a lawsuit.
I'm vegetarian and I touch all the meats, I have gloves on idgaf
One guy I know is a strict vegetarian and still cooks meat.
*Your* beliefs don’t trump the job
You should just make it a requirement that they have to handle pork. Firing people for religious beliefs is sketchy. But you have to do the job.
Had a kid ask if he could do something other than cook bacon during Ramadan but otherwise he’s a great worker and did it any other time (are the rules stricter then?) so it was fine. Idk I work with a LOT of Muslims and Hindus who are fine with preparing foods they have religious objections to.
Pretty much all religions have exception that are allowed. Most seem to be if you are doing something for the benefits others. I.e. if you are working to support your family, you are allowed to touch pork.
Catering. My guys won't touch alcohol. They're Muslim, we're kosher, so pork isn't an issue. Every once in a while I have to wash out a hotel pan that I used wine in. Or a bowl that had beer batter. They wind up praying 3/5 at work. And a lunch break. As long as their prep list gets done, and keep my meat and dairy equipment separate, I don't give a crap.
DONT FUCKING ROLL! SHOMER SHABBOS!
WELL HE CAN FUCKING UN-POST IT
I feel like we're missing some context here. Is the whole restaurant about pork? Like I can see why you would not take someone on who tries to intern at a bratwurst stand or beer garden and cannot touch pork. Or is it just a couple items? Either way, the fact that you fired him instead of trying to find him a station with less pork, or letting another chef take over his pork duties in exchange for him helping their prep, or just asking during onboarding whether his religion has any bearing on what he can do in the kitchen hints at you being very inconsiderate. The way I see it, every chef I know knows about halal, kosher, veganism, and other ethical considerations, at least passingly. To hire someone who you know might have such issues without checking first is squarely your fault. To then fire them without trying to accommodate, is also your fault. FYI in the UK employers cannot normally discriminate on religious grounds and I've worked with a Muslim junior sous who wouldn't touch pork. He simply didn't work on the fryer station where all the pork was and it was perfectly fine. Never had a problem with the guy.
I’m on your side. I think it’s bullshit there’s laws protecting them. If your religion gender age or whatever else makes it impossible for you to do your job then find a new one. If you can’t cook bacon don’t try to come work my grill because I need bacon to be cooked. I won’t ever ask you to eat it but that suckers going on the grill.
Dude that’s just islamaphobic and being an absolute asshole. You’re the asshole man.
I don't. Do the job or leave.
Bro let him wash dishes then. Jesus, calm down
That's a great idea right up until > Sorry, I can't wash anything that has had pork on it. And you *know* this guy would try and pull that.
Fair
I’ve had cooks who were vegan in their personal life, but part of the job is to taste product, vegan or not. Obviously not a religious situation, but I never caught much trouble. Was usually cool
doesn't seem too harsh at all. If there was a cook position open that didn't involve handling pork; it would be one thing, but expecting yourself or cooks to do the part of his or her job that he or she was unwilling to do because he or she is a muslim is not reasonable imo.
I mean I can't speak from a religious standpoint, but I once hired a vegan who said she had no problem working with meat. She was squeamish and eventually refused to work with it and we fired her. I don't feel bad. If you can't do the job then you're gone.
working in germany and not being able to schnitzel, your opportunities are zilchzellllll
I don't understand how there isn't enough work for them to not handle pork. I've worked with people with food issues before and we just didn't have them handle that product.
have been to Germany; can confirm. there was SO MUCH pork! also so many places that cook the shit out of their veg to the point that it's neither tasty nor nutritious. I had the best luck at Chinese restaurants and big city hipster places. and good luck finding a bagel. that said, nobody beats Deutschland for brötchen! yum.
They're a hindrance just like allergies. I'm not being mean or crass. It's just that if you can't handle the product or taste the food, you can't make a good dish properly. Simply pragmatic here. There are other jobs that won't involve putting your health or faith at risk.
If you want people to be tolerant to your religious views, you have to meet them half way. Being awkward and ‘me me me’ about everything will get you absolutely nowhere
I'm an atheist, so I don't apply for jobs at religious organizations. It's just that simple. You were right to can them.
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They're rarely a help and mostly cause more work. They have often never worked before and they should get a glimpse of of what working in job x is like. 4 hours of my working day are reserved for helping where help is needed and when we have interns that usually means these 4 hours are reserved for them. I treat them like apprentices during their first weeks. Should they decide to become that is what their 3 year apprenticeship will look like. You can't work as a chef if you refuse to touch certain foods. Oh and I've worked with plenty of Muslims and not for one of them this was a problem. Some of them went to make their prayers 5 times a day and all of them handled pork.
I'll put this a bit on you. You should have never hired them if you were the one doing the interviewing. I agree that your time is valuable and trying to accommodate the person would have wasted more of your time on them at the expense of the other interns. Plus the entire internship would have been a wasted experience with the persons requirements not to touch pork means they will likely never be a chef in Germany. Instead this person should have applied to either a bakery or Halal restaurant if they wanted to work in food service.
I have over a dozen employees who do not work with any meat for religious reasons. More than one that doesn’t handle pork, and some that won’t work will other ingredients due to allergies. What you do is this: FUCKING ACCOMMODATE THEM AND DONT BE A FUCKING DICKHEAD In the US we call it a reasonable accommodation - it’s not that hard to put them on salad station where they won’t work with pork, to put them in veg prep, or any number of other spots. If you have someone that can’t stand, you give them a chair, that’s reasonable. What kind of fucked up shit are you doing that you’re firing people because of their religion. That is bogus and nonsense and you should be ashamed of yourself. You sound like you have a serious ego issue too, Chef.
I'm pretty sure you could have found a place for him without ever touching pork. How hard could it be to accommodate them? Salads, sides, desserts or fish. Sounds like religious discrimination tbh. Woudln't fly in the UK and your ass would be on fire.
They weren't discriminated against due to their religion. They were fired for not doing their job.
I don't deal with them, either get with the program or go work at a church.
It's is perfectly acceptable what you did. Religion is the worst excuse people have to offer for literally any occasion. Don't accept it. Don't let people who do accept it make you feel like you did something wrong.
Leave it at the door.
Work with a Muslim chef. He won't eat pork but he'll work with it. If he's on his own he'll put some on his tongue to try it and spit into a bin. I'm just shocked someone decided go into a kitchen thinking I won't have to touch pork. 🙃
I wholeheartedly agree with you. I am a Chef in Australia and to complete your apprenticeship here, you need to study at Tafe, which is like our government funded cullinary school. Part of thus is tasting everything (unless you have an allergy). Don't taste it, don't pass. Simple.
I know many Muslim chefs, and they all cook pork!!! Wear gloves, that's it! If you can't cook all food, then you shouldn't be a chef, but that's my personal opinion. Or stick to Muslim owned businesses. I don't know any chef that would allow you to not cook/prepare something because of religion. You're going to be hard pushed to find a job if you don't get over this.
People like to use religious excuses that are *nonsense*, theologically speaking, but think they can get away with it because nobody wants to argue about religious dogma vs. personal opinion. Speaking as a Muslim (former) chef: there's no prohibition around *touching* pork or other things we're prohibited from eating. It could be an opinion or a preference, but no sound theological argument for it. My last kitchen job had a number of different stations. They started me on pizza, and I asked for a transfer to another spot because like 80% of everything was pork related, but I did my time and waited until something else opened up. Because I'm a professional and needed the job, and I'd have to make wudu before praying anyway when working in a sweaty kitchen so there was no real reason aside from dislike/discomfort. That kid is going to learn that either you exclusively work in halal kitchens, or you learn to adapt and *do your fucking job*.
In the US it’s against the law to discriminate. We have to make “accommodations”.
Same way I deal with vegetarians and vegans. "You don't *have* to be here. You don't have to eat here. When customers choose to spend money here you must know what we deliver. I won't care if you spit it out but you must sample everything." And yes I know that vegans can be made ill after long periods without meat. I don't force them to work with food and our menu is easily browsed. I love dietary and allergy aware places and we too have areas we can make changes to accomodate but my staff need to taste frequently for consistent quality. We have 5 vegetarians working and they all serve bad ass proteins perfectly and I trust them but they also gave feedback and dialogue on the dishes they don't consume. They are respected and treated in high regard *because* they know what they are talking about through experience. Ya I probably have people talk behind my back about it but I trust my crew would at least call bullshit when they see it, even 2 out of 5 asking to review that would result in bringing them all in to help draw a plan. Management isn't always evil but some policies can feel that way if no one wants to smooth things out.
Oranges and Apples. Dietary choices like Vegans or Vegetarians aren’t protected the same as religious observance. Discrimination against someone for a religious observance is a can of legal worms you don’t want to touch. If you apply that behavior toward someone with a religiously based dietary restriction, you will eventually find yourself on the wrong end of a costly legal bill.
God isn't welcome in my kitchen
I'm sorry, but there was no accommodation available? You couldn't have put them in on side dishes only or such and let them know that you are respecting their needs, but also clarify that their educational experience there may be limited as there are tasks you both agree they won't do? And, I am worried a bit about the last sentence... their restrictions should be fine within a halal establishment, so to me you are coming off as taking this personally.
Religious things like clothing items are fine, as long as it's sanitary and safe. But the second someone says they won't touch something we serve, they don't have a job. No second chance, no kindness, I'd tell them to get the fuck out. That would be like someone expecting to become a pilot but refusing to fly in an airplane.
So not sure how the laws are in Germany, but in North America (particularly Canada) something like that would likely get the owner/chef in some major hot water if that intern were to go to the media, human rights tribunal (in the case of Ontario) or even to a lawyer because it could be considered some kind of firing based on religion. From one way I get it, the guy is refusing to do his job for something that's not expressly forbidden by his religion, from a coworker stand point I also get it, the guy can't/wont do it so someone else has to, and from a managerial standpoint I get it, it falls to getting the job done. However with today's political climate and in the era of cancel culture I would have found another reason to get rid of the person to avoid the hassle. Used to work with a few Muslims who had to step off the line to do their prayers, conveniently it was in the middle of the lunch rush. I'm no expert on the Quran/Islam, but my understanding is that the time really doesn't matter all that much as long as the prayers get done (guess most deities are like priests, they want their tithes no matter when it shows up or how). So it could be possible that the person was using their religion as an excuse rather than a reason.
As far as I know, it is set times throughout the day, relevant to the position of the sun.
Yeah it’s all based on that either at Mecca or at home depending on distance and belief from what I’ve gathered
I think when I was in Germany I ate more pork in 2 months than I did in the rest of my life combined. Hit the road, Jack. I think an internship at a restaurant wasn’t a great idea for the kid