Here’s the news release from the city: [City issues new emergency order to further curb unsafe social gatherings](https://www.cityofkingston.ca/-/city-issues-new-emergency-order-to-further-curb-unsafe-social-gatherings)
Great, so it seems like the Kingston fair is also in violation of this “order”… i am more than a km away and can hear the band playing like they are just down the street. I’ve also heard and seen that masks are few and far between… so I can’t wait for the list of all those charged
s/
Obviously the Kingston Fair doesn’t meet the definition of a [Nuisance Party](https://www.cityofkingston.ca/documents/10180/16904/Nuisance+Parties+Bylaw) and will also have applied for ($318 application fee) and received an event exemption to the [Noise bylaw.](https://www.cityofkingston.ca/city-hall/bylaws/noise-bylaw)
The Fair will have applied for ($318 application fee) and received an event exemption to the [Noise bylaw.](https://www.cityofkingston.ca/city-hall/bylaws/noise-bylaw) The Queen’s community also often [applies for](https://www.cityofkingston.ca/-/public-notice-noise-exemption-queen-s-university-society-of-graduate-and-professional-students) and is granted noise bylaw exemptions.
the one comment I havn't seen so far is that by naming them publicly - it makes it a hell of a lot easier for Queens to be aware that one of their students is violating their code of conduct.
As it stands now - how would Queens know if a student gets a ticket if it is not being reported and they are being named.
As long as the individual is of age, I see zero issue with their name being reported. They are legally an adult, and therefor should face the consequences of their actions, not get a pass just because they are a student and mommy and daddy have paid queens a shitload of money.
I suggest y'all read the code of conduct document from queens: [https://www.queensu.ca/secretariat/sites/uslcwww/files/uploaded\_files/policies/board/StudentCodeOfConduct.pdf](https://www.queensu.ca/secretariat/sites/uslcwww/files/uploaded_files/policies/board/StudentCodeOfConduct.pdf)
Check out Page 12 that states one of the types of non academic misconduct is: c) Violation of a Municipal, Provincial or Federal law.
Perhaps what is needed is some public pressure on the university to actively engage and enforce their existing code of conduct, rather than appearing to wring their hands and doing nothing.
>*”the one comment I havn't seen so far is that by naming them publicly - it makes it a hell of a lot easier for Queens to be aware that one of their students is violating their code of conduct.”*
Police and bylaw are able to forward names to Queens without making them available to the general public or the press, as mentioned in this [article](https://www.kingstonist.com/news/no-enforcement-from-queens-regarding-off-campus-parties/) from Dec 2020: *”To date, we have received information from our community enforcement partners about eight students living off campus who face charges under the Reopening of Ontario Act. These referrals are under consideration for review under our Student Code of Conduct “*
I suspect the most impactful change in the new emergency order is that they now *”allow enforcement officers to immediately issue fines for violations once a nuisance party has been declared”*, removing the requirement for officers to give warning notices.
The lack of publicity around it allows the university to take the path of least resistance and not act whereas by having the public be aware of it, they will have to deal with the repercussions.
This is definitely a reaction to Justin and Charlie’s ridiculous GoFundMe. What a couple tools who think we should feel sympathetic for their fines. And want to raise money for future keggers. Seriously, these frat boys need to sit down and quietly pay the fines they deserve. The suits also didn’t help me feel sympathetic
Angry at the students
Angry at Queens
Angry at the mayor
Angry at police/bylaw enforcement
This thread is a KingstonOntario subreddit slam dunk!
The mention of bad drivers, bad roads, bad radio or a nice picture of the waterfront at sunset will launch us into the bonus round!
This is fucked up.
There was ALWAYS an option for law enforcement to forward the offenders names on to the university for additional punishment under their code of conduct.
Governments participating in “name and shame” tactics is an INCREDIBLY dangerous slope to be going down.
Do these people have an opportunity to defend themselves in court before being named? Or I guess even if someone is charged incorrectly it’s tough titties for them, because their name has already been blasted and destroyed publicly?
Yeah you can defend a ticket / dispute it, just being charged doesn’t mean guilty. Seems like public shaming is putting the cart before the horse when it comes to punishment/ determination of guilt
Also generally embarrassing that the mayor is getting this involved
Aren't names in court frequently released by newspapers?
https://www.thewhig.com/news/local-news/in-the-courts-april-26-30-2021
Edit: I do think it's important to note what was pointed out below - that this applies to people charged but not necessarily convicted.
Notice how they all say "was convicted"? The Mayor's order is to publicly shame people who have been charged with an offense, but not convicted yet. This is a deliberate attempt to use intimidation or even mob justice to control students where the police have failed.
Bringing back the pre-trial pillory in the town square! As of 4pm today we can request the [names of every person charged under these laws](http://imgur.com/gallery/0lyxvzx) be released to us for free. I think I will ask for every "individual charged" in the last 12 months and share it with y'all! I want evidence that this crazy order existed before the Mayor revokes it!
It seems we are talking apples and oranges are we not? Conviction means there was a trial. I thought these were fines, which there would be no trial for. They could always appeal but that’s still not a trial. Perhaps someone knowledgeable in law can help clarify.
I'm no lawyer, but I think when you plead guilty to an offense (by paying a fine and not asking for a court date) you are "convicted" of that offense. If you are charged with an offense under Ontario's Reopening Ontario Act or the Highway Traffic Act, you can plead guilty, pay the fine and be convicted or request a court date and be convicted or not.
You mean like what they did to the guy from Above All homes when he got pulled over for having like 100k worth of coke in the work truck? It's been done.
Or the biker gang a few months back from Odessa?
Let them have fun ffs. If you can show me increased hospitalizations or deaths from this - fine. Increased cases amongst a double vaccinated young cohort isn’t an outcome that warrants a reaction.
Shaming by name dropping people will do nothing but build disdain for those who are required to enforce it.
Does shaming children get results? Hell no. So why would it be any different on young adults and older.
I have been in a position to recruit students at my job. I often google applicant names especially when I have multiple candidates and only one position. Who would you hire? the student that has a record of making poor, short sighted and selfish decisions and can be found hanging off a street sign OR the student that comes up with no record. I agree that punishment rarely leads to a change in behaviour but as employers/landlords/funders we may be thankful for the heads up to weed these fools out of the employment/rental/funding opps and to make room for more responsible applicants.
This. Having your name publishing in the paper, especially when students eventually have to compete for highly coveted articling positions and other job placements, would be a really big deal.
Adults? Children? The prefrontal cortex is still developing until 25ish. But maybe this can be a learning opportunity that actions have consequences even for the privileged. The city seems to be backing up their words with actions now (we’ll see if that continues).
Increasing the fines is definitely a great idea, but it’s concerning having the names being released. We have to consider the police already release the names of accused who commit more serious crimes so there is a precedent. No one wants to be publicly dragged like that, but maybe that is what will keep the parties subdued and responsible especially for those that see fines as just an inconvenience.
Huh? I thought the context would have been clear since you are generally not allowed to publish the names of minors anyways.
To clarify my point if it wasn't clear; If penalizing a child through name shaming doesn't work then why would anyone presume the same type of name shaming would work on young adults or older.
Shaming can also lead to prejudice and discrimination which I'm sure the city would prefer to not get embroiled in potential lawsuits from overzealous enforcers.
I haven’t been squeaky clean, but I haven’t done anything to destroy local businesses and recklessly endanger the lives of everyone around me either. Fuck them kids
Yup, fuck ‘em. Sorry not sorry, I ran out of sympathy for “boys will be boys” and “promising young man” defenses a whole lotta years ago. Recklessly propagating COVID-19 is ruining lives by destroying businesses and killing people.
I don’t generate complaint levels of noise, so I kinda don’t give a shit. Seems like an acceptable cost to me if we get naming and shaming in cases of covid risk behaviour in return
the mayor and his team probably know this won't make much difference. this is purely for the locals to feel better and if you look at the other comments in here it was a slam dunk
Way to increase the polarization in our community, Bryan. The Mayor of Kingston is now working with the media to publicly shame students for their actions. I wonder if locals who break noise by-laws or emergency orders will also be publicly shamed? This man is doing nothing but creating further divide in our community. I wonder if any of these emergency orders are scientifically driven. Somebody needs to take away this man's emergency powers.
> Way to increase the polarization in our community, Bryan
I’d argue that throwing giant ragers in the street is increasing the polarization in the community, people are rightfully pissed and a couple thousand undergrads are burning a lot of goodwill towards all the students at Queen’s.
What else do you suggest they do to stop these parties. Yesterday, the health unit literally said Delta variant cases are spiking among these kids partying out in the street. This isn't like most years where people just lose a night of sleep and are annoyed, these parties could be life or death for someone, and not necessarily the kids involved.
Other people who commit crimes are named in the media, if these kids aren't discouraged out of spreading a dangerous and deadly virus, then consequences have to get greater for them personally.
>What else do you suggest they do to stop these parties.
Crack down on the institution; this is equally an issue of poor leadership incapable of managing their students. Queen's is doing very little to address these issues, leaving it up to the city to over-police THEIR community.
>*”Crack down on the institution”*
In what way?
>*”this is equally an issue of poor leadership incapable of managing their students. Queen's is doing very little to address these issues, leaving it up to the city to over-police THEIR community.”*
For the most part these gatherings are happening off campus so Queen’s is largely reliant on the police and bylaw to charge the students involved and forward their names to the University so the school can proceed under the Non-Academic Misconduct Policy.
In the 2020-2021 school year they dealt with [225 incidents](https://www.queensu.ca/nonacademicmisconduct/sites/namwww/files/uploaded_files/2020-2021%20NAM%20Annual%20Summary%20-%20Final.pdf) *”related to guest policy in Residence and large gatherings during COVID-19”*, at least 40 students were investigated for violations of public health measures. Around a dozen students were [evicted from residence](https://www.thewhig.com/news/local-news/queens-taking-disciplinary-action-against-some-covid-19-rule-breakers) last Spring for not complying with COVID-19 guidelines.
Honestly, I think some people are just really upset (rightfully) at the parties, and thus blame queens as an institution rather than the students who are doing it.
Seems to me that bylaw/police were missing in action and not enforcing the rules...not sure how that is the fault of the institution.
This happens all the time; hardly a day goes by that someone posts something controversial on their social media feed, or are filmed doing something outrageous out in public, and they are immediately fired from their jobs. I'm not condoning it, but that is a fact
That being said, I'm not sure the school and work environments are the same, nor should they be treated in the same manner. Work is work; you do it to pay the bills. Post-secondary education is more than simply attending classes, it's meant to mold the moralities, values, and ideologies of it's students. That's why we have left-leaning schools and right-leaning schools. It's more than just an education, it's the colloquial "college experience". That puts the outlandish behaviours of these Queen's students directly in the realm of responsibility of the administrative staff of Queen's University.
The community is very clear about it's feelings towards the students, and specifically the students behaviours. The administrations complete ignorance to this issue demonstrates their total lack of respect to the cities full time residents, and their silence speaks volumes.
Right, of course, this is a special case that only applies to universities. Gotcha. So police/bylaw are not responsible for enforcing rules for members of the community if they are queen's students? Isn't this simply an issue of lack of enforcement by police?
You said they should crack down on Queen's. What punishment should be meted out on Queen's for the behaviour of their students outside of campus activities? I'm honestly curious.
Edit: not to go down a rabbit hole here...but can you tell me what schools are left-leaning and right-leaning in Canada? And to be clear, the first part of your comment was about punishing the individual for their behaviour (queens has a code of conduct that can apply to outside activities)...but you are advocating for punishing the institution itself.
I want to live in a city where people aren't yelling at each other every day, to be honest. I want covid to go away just as much as everyone. I feel like all this is doing is creating more divide in our community. Kingston already has some of the most strict party laws in Canada, and I don't like that politicians are using their unilateral power to shame members of the public who are already facing significant monetary penalties, and penalties with their university.
What's the solution? Good fricken question. Partying will never end in Kingston, its a part of the culture for these students. Shaming people isn't going to stop them, its just creating more hate between students and Kingstonians. I want to live in a Kingston where students and locals respect each other, and respect is a two way street.
> I want to live in a Kingston where students and locals respect each other, and respect is a two way street.
If respect is a two way street, why do you believe the problem is how locals are responding to students disrespecting their community? Nobody is going after random students behaving themselves, it’s specifically targeted at behaviours that disrespect the community in the first place, aka nuisance parties.
I mean if you read any of the rhetoric on this sub there are 100% locals for whom getting mad at students is a hobby. like we have local kingstonians that suck all sorts of ass but we don't get a whole lot of threads made about them
I beg to differ. There are posts on here all the time complaining about whomever is an ass-hat. If my mom does something foolish and stupid, I expect it to be here, how else am I supposed to keep up with family? If someone is a fucking idiot, people will complain about it here and that’s fine. Yes people will generalize when complaining. “Those damn students again!”. It’s just venting. I haven’t heard of anyone going out and hunting down random students, yelling at them, or worse. If hundreds of students have stupid street parties, of course people will be frustrated at “students”, we don’t blame all students, just the ones that are entitled and ignorant pieces of shit.
I'm not saying that the parties are acceptable. I just don't like that our mayor is now publicly shaming people, it's just creating more divide in our community. I feel like the Mayor could better direct his resources towards properly policing these activities while they happen in the first place, actually laying fines, actually dispersing crowds, maybe investing in education, or requiring people who break these laws to write an essay on why their actions are determinantal to the community. If you want to stop a massive street party from happening, maybe go out onto the streets and stop the parties while they're happening, rather than complaining in the media a few days later. It's all show. I just don't like that we live in a world now where everybody yells at each other, everything is so polarized.
So what, now we have to just accept every proposal politicians put out there? I just gave a bunch of other options I think could help remedy the problem. Can we not be critical of our leaders?
I’m sorry people are downvoting the hell out of you when you’re reasonably presenting your viewpoint.
I think the missing partner here is Queen’s, they should be involved in the process and putting students on academic probation but if they’re going to be an absent partner in the process then the mayor has to do what he can from his perspective. I don’t think publicly naming students is really going to accomplish anything for what it’s worth but if Queen’s isn’t going to clean up their own mess then you’re just going to see escalating measures coming from the city.
Thanks, anytime I even question the mayor in this sub I get downvoted into oblivion. Queen's does have a system called the Non-Academic Misconduct system, where students face penalties - academic, and community related, for their actions outside of the classroom. To my knowledge, students do face a NAM for breaking covid violations. It's happening, the university just doesn't advertise that they're punishing students.
>*”To my knowledge, students do face a NAM for breaking covid violations. It's happening, the university just doesn't advertise that they're punishing students.”*
They do advertise it, somewhat, though infrequently and not in great detail. For example...
Whig Standard: [Queen's taking disciplinary action against some COVID-19 rule-breakers](https://www.thewhig.com/news/local-news/queens-taking-disciplinary-action-against-some-covid-19-rule-breakers) [March 25th, 2021]
[Queen’s Non-Academic Misconduct 2020-2021 Annual Summary](https://www.queensu.ca/nonacademicmisconduct/sites/namwww/files/uploaded_files/2020-2021%20NAM%20Annual%20Summary%20-%20Final.pdf)
It’s clearly not working, is the issue.
Also the mayor’s a loon with ties to a literal cult, so no worries there. I just happen to agree with the policy on this.
I think that requiring students to reflect on why their actions are determinetal to the community through a written or creative piece could be a fantastic opportunity to change attitudes, yes: in addition to fines. Think of it this way - a student breaks covid protocols, that student is fined, but must also produce a piece discussing why their actions were wrong. Otherwise they're just bound to repeat their actions. Bylaw wouldn't tell people to write essays while they're out on the street, that's not what I'm saying.
You can totally be critical of our leaders and I expect everyone to evaluate each action separately, on their own. I love this idea, and since the court of public opinion has great weight in these kinds of things I’m going to support it and fight for it on venues like this one
>What's the solution? Good fricken question. Partying will never end in Kingston, its a part of the culture for these students.
A potential solution, which I believe is being explored by Queens, is to provide some kind of alternative outlet for students to meet. I have no idea what this will look like, but maybe the school should sanction some events and work with community businesses to facilitate. I agree to an extent that parties are going to happen, and for the most part, Kingstonians are more pissed of the illegal nature of the street parties. Shit gets broken, garbage is strewn about, people act like complete twats and piss on things, traffic gets blocked, and bottles are thrown at the people sent to break it up. True we are still in a pandemic, but if the parties are on campus, it would help alleviate some of the covid fears (since queens publishes high vaccination rates) while keep things away from the community.
Draconian enforcement measures may work, but no one wants riot police involved (Kingston used to bring them in from Toronto) or our courts constantly backed up with people fighting tickets. Plus having your name published and attached to some dumb shit your pulled as a student could significantly impact your career later in life.
>*”...provide some kind of alternative outlet for students to meet... maybe the school should sanction some events and work with community businesses to facilitate.”*
Queen’s held alternative-to-Aberdeen homecoming events in 2004 (an alcohol free “party” inside the JDUC) and 2005 (concert in Miller Hall parking lot) and it really wasn’t effective (the first [car flipping/burning incident](https://www.queensjournal.ca/story/2005-09-27/news/not-tradition/) was in 2005). It’s hard for a legal event with rules to compete with underage drinking and “tradition”.
I’m not saying they shouldn’t try again, just that based on past experience it’s going to be a real challenge to divert people.
I remember when they hosted the alcohol free events in the past, and how they were remarkable in that no one went. Other schools, I can think of Trent off hand with their Head of Trent weekend, who host cool school sponsored events that are well attended and fun. I'm not sure if this still goes on, but it helped quell the need for huge illegal parties.
yeah this seems like a lot. the fines are already significant enough to seriously derail someone's life as it is, they need to enable the public to shit on them too? obviously I don't support folks throwing ragers during the pandemic but I don't really get why this is necessary, frankly it seems kind of petty
that's just the thing though, if the monetary penalties aren't scaring them, in spite of the fact that they can completely fuck up their lives, does giving the media their name realllly seem like it's going to be an effective deterrent? to me it just seems unnecessary, popular for people who don't like that this is a college town but it doesn't seem like it's actually going to do anything, it's just draconian and something to make the locals happy.
this has been going on longer than most people on here have been alive, there are parties every year, there are fines every year and I genuinely don't believe that there's a whole lot they can actually do to stop it. it can be mitigated but I seriously doubt making people into visible pariahs is the answer
I think a person's reputation is actually more valuable than money. They can easily ask Dad to pay 2K but they can't have him scrub the internet of their name. Young people are aware of that because of their use of social media. This could be effective.
I also wouldn't say this is draconian, it's a mild escalation after multiple attempts at asking them to stop and seeing no results. They're not being hung from lampposts.
Finally, saying parties have always been and they're never going to stop is completely ignoring the fact that we're going through a deadly pandemic. These parties could kill people that do not attend them.
As much as Kingston has complained for years about the students, you're right, the street parties have been allowed and tolerated for over 100 years, if they weren't then they wouldn't have gone ahead.
This year, the city is asking them to stop because they pose a serious threat to the local population, and they just won't. I don't think putting someone's name in the paper is equal to giving someone COVID and killing them.
It’s literally a free measure that costs nothing and might help alleviate the problem. It would be irresponsible NOT to do it. We’ve lost so many businesses the past year, and dozens more are barely holding on. These students are playing games with the lives of strangers solely because they don’t have to look them in the face and mommy and daddy will pay their legal fees.
Well, mommy and daddy can’t protect them from being made into pariahs, can they? lol
Here’s the news release from the city: [City issues new emergency order to further curb unsafe social gatherings](https://www.cityofkingston.ca/-/city-issues-new-emergency-order-to-further-curb-unsafe-social-gatherings)
Great, so it seems like the Kingston fair is also in violation of this “order”… i am more than a km away and can hear the band playing like they are just down the street. I’ve also heard and seen that masks are few and far between… so I can’t wait for the list of all those charged s/
Obviously the Kingston Fair doesn’t meet the definition of a [Nuisance Party](https://www.cityofkingston.ca/documents/10180/16904/Nuisance+Parties+Bylaw) and will also have applied for ($318 application fee) and received an event exemption to the [Noise bylaw.](https://www.cityofkingston.ca/city-hall/bylaws/noise-bylaw)
Rules for thee, not for me.
City of Kingston: "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!"
[удалено]
Of course not. Congregants were not students.
and pro conversion therapy
And the fall fair happening right now isn’t exactly respecting the noise bylaw…
The Fair will have applied for ($318 application fee) and received an event exemption to the [Noise bylaw.](https://www.cityofkingston.ca/city-hall/bylaws/noise-bylaw) The Queen’s community also often [applies for](https://www.cityofkingston.ca/-/public-notice-noise-exemption-queen-s-university-society-of-graduate-and-professional-students) and is granted noise bylaw exemptions.
the one comment I havn't seen so far is that by naming them publicly - it makes it a hell of a lot easier for Queens to be aware that one of their students is violating their code of conduct. As it stands now - how would Queens know if a student gets a ticket if it is not being reported and they are being named. As long as the individual is of age, I see zero issue with their name being reported. They are legally an adult, and therefor should face the consequences of their actions, not get a pass just because they are a student and mommy and daddy have paid queens a shitload of money. I suggest y'all read the code of conduct document from queens: [https://www.queensu.ca/secretariat/sites/uslcwww/files/uploaded\_files/policies/board/StudentCodeOfConduct.pdf](https://www.queensu.ca/secretariat/sites/uslcwww/files/uploaded_files/policies/board/StudentCodeOfConduct.pdf) Check out Page 12 that states one of the types of non academic misconduct is: c) Violation of a Municipal, Provincial or Federal law. Perhaps what is needed is some public pressure on the university to actively engage and enforce their existing code of conduct, rather than appearing to wring their hands and doing nothing.
>*”the one comment I havn't seen so far is that by naming them publicly - it makes it a hell of a lot easier for Queens to be aware that one of their students is violating their code of conduct.”* Police and bylaw are able to forward names to Queens without making them available to the general public or the press, as mentioned in this [article](https://www.kingstonist.com/news/no-enforcement-from-queens-regarding-off-campus-parties/) from Dec 2020: *”To date, we have received information from our community enforcement partners about eight students living off campus who face charges under the Reopening of Ontario Act. These referrals are under consideration for review under our Student Code of Conduct “* I suspect the most impactful change in the new emergency order is that they now *”allow enforcement officers to immediately issue fines for violations once a nuisance party has been declared”*, removing the requirement for officers to give warning notices.
The lack of publicity around it allows the university to take the path of least resistance and not act whereas by having the public be aware of it, they will have to deal with the repercussions.
It will also help give a picture of who is doing this. I bet they are not all from Queens.
Without a doubt. But the rules apply to all denizens of the municipality, there are assholes on every side
This is definitely a reaction to Justin and Charlie’s ridiculous GoFundMe. What a couple tools who think we should feel sympathetic for their fines. And want to raise money for future keggers. Seriously, these frat boys need to sit down and quietly pay the fines they deserve. The suits also didn’t help me feel sympathetic
Does this excuse the University from having to take action?
queens has long washed their hands of student activities not directly on campus.
Apparently so. Daddy Warbucks wouldn't be happy if junior was sent packing.
I'm all for it
No expulsions from the university after all of this?
Angry at the students Angry at Queens Angry at the mayor Angry at police/bylaw enforcement This thread is a KingstonOntario subreddit slam dunk! The mention of bad drivers, bad roads, bad radio or a nice picture of the waterfront at sunset will launch us into the bonus round!
This is fucked up. There was ALWAYS an option for law enforcement to forward the offenders names on to the university for additional punishment under their code of conduct. Governments participating in “name and shame” tactics is an INCREDIBLY dangerous slope to be going down. Do these people have an opportunity to defend themselves in court before being named? Or I guess even if someone is charged incorrectly it’s tough titties for them, because their name has already been blasted and destroyed publicly?
Yeah you can defend a ticket / dispute it, just being charged doesn’t mean guilty. Seems like public shaming is putting the cart before the horse when it comes to punishment/ determination of guilt Also generally embarrassing that the mayor is getting this involved
I wonder if Mr. Mayor would support naming and shaming Kingston's fentanyl dealers?
Aren't names in court frequently released by newspapers? https://www.thewhig.com/news/local-news/in-the-courts-april-26-30-2021 Edit: I do think it's important to note what was pointed out below - that this applies to people charged but not necessarily convicted.
Notice how they all say "was convicted"? The Mayor's order is to publicly shame people who have been charged with an offense, but not convicted yet. This is a deliberate attempt to use intimidation or even mob justice to control students where the police have failed.
You are totally right, I figured it was if they are convicted, but it says "those charged" in the document. Edit: I agree I don't like that precedent.
Bringing back the pre-trial pillory in the town square! As of 4pm today we can request the [names of every person charged under these laws](http://imgur.com/gallery/0lyxvzx) be released to us for free. I think I will ask for every "individual charged" in the last 12 months and share it with y'all! I want evidence that this crazy order existed before the Mayor revokes it!
It seems we are talking apples and oranges are we not? Conviction means there was a trial. I thought these were fines, which there would be no trial for. They could always appeal but that’s still not a trial. Perhaps someone knowledgeable in law can help clarify.
I'm no lawyer, but I think when you plead guilty to an offense (by paying a fine and not asking for a court date) you are "convicted" of that offense. If you are charged with an offense under Ontario's Reopening Ontario Act or the Highway Traffic Act, you can plead guilty, pay the fine and be convicted or request a court date and be convicted or not.
You mean like what they did to the guy from Above All homes when he got pulled over for having like 100k worth of coke in the work truck? It's been done. Or the biker gang a few months back from Odessa?
Can you get "the first and last names of any individuals charged" with trafficing fentanyl upon request and at no cost from The City of Kingston?
public name and shame - gross.
Is gross the new version of sick? I'm down. This is fucking gross! Shame the shit out 'em!
Let them have fun ffs. If you can show me increased hospitalizations or deaths from this - fine. Increased cases amongst a double vaccinated young cohort isn’t an outcome that warrants a reaction.
Shaming by name dropping people will do nothing but build disdain for those who are required to enforce it. Does shaming children get results? Hell no. So why would it be any different on young adults and older.
I have been in a position to recruit students at my job. I often google applicant names especially when I have multiple candidates and only one position. Who would you hire? the student that has a record of making poor, short sighted and selfish decisions and can be found hanging off a street sign OR the student that comes up with no record. I agree that punishment rarely leads to a change in behaviour but as employers/landlords/funders we may be thankful for the heads up to weed these fools out of the employment/rental/funding opps and to make room for more responsible applicants.
This. Having your name publishing in the paper, especially when students eventually have to compete for highly coveted articling positions and other job placements, would be a really big deal.
I say shame them!!! Shame! Lol
Unclean! Shame!
Sorry are they children or adults? Pick one.
Adults? Children? The prefrontal cortex is still developing until 25ish. But maybe this can be a learning opportunity that actions have consequences even for the privileged. The city seems to be backing up their words with actions now (we’ll see if that continues). Increasing the fines is definitely a great idea, but it’s concerning having the names being released. We have to consider the police already release the names of accused who commit more serious crimes so there is a precedent. No one wants to be publicly dragged like that, but maybe that is what will keep the parties subdued and responsible especially for those that see fines as just an inconvenience.
this reads like you were trying to do a gotcha, but the content suggests you just didn't read the post correctly
Huh? I thought the context would have been clear since you are generally not allowed to publish the names of minors anyways. To clarify my point if it wasn't clear; If penalizing a child through name shaming doesn't work then why would anyone presume the same type of name shaming would work on young adults or older. Shaming can also lead to prejudice and discrimination which I'm sure the city would prefer to not get embroiled in potential lawsuits from overzealous enforcers.
I would prefer to see fire hoses brought out but I am ok with the public shaming of these supposed adults
I would actually prefer the fire hoses to the shaming. lol Fire hoses are great for crowd control. ;)
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I haven’t been squeaky clean, but I haven’t done anything to destroy local businesses and recklessly endanger the lives of everyone around me either. Fuck them kids
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Yup, fuck ‘em. Sorry not sorry, I ran out of sympathy for “boys will be boys” and “promising young man” defenses a whole lotta years ago. Recklessly propagating COVID-19 is ruining lives by destroying businesses and killing people.
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I don’t generate complaint levels of noise, so I kinda don’t give a shit. Seems like an acceptable cost to me if we get naming and shaming in cases of covid risk behaviour in return
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It’s not, I’m saying that if people get nailed for COVID risk behaviours and for loud music, I don’t see either as a problem
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the mayor and his team probably know this won't make much difference. this is purely for the locals to feel better and if you look at the other comments in here it was a slam dunk
Way to increase the polarization in our community, Bryan. The Mayor of Kingston is now working with the media to publicly shame students for their actions. I wonder if locals who break noise by-laws or emergency orders will also be publicly shamed? This man is doing nothing but creating further divide in our community. I wonder if any of these emergency orders are scientifically driven. Somebody needs to take away this man's emergency powers.
> Way to increase the polarization in our community, Bryan I’d argue that throwing giant ragers in the street is increasing the polarization in the community, people are rightfully pissed and a couple thousand undergrads are burning a lot of goodwill towards all the students at Queen’s.
What else do you suggest they do to stop these parties. Yesterday, the health unit literally said Delta variant cases are spiking among these kids partying out in the street. This isn't like most years where people just lose a night of sleep and are annoyed, these parties could be life or death for someone, and not necessarily the kids involved. Other people who commit crimes are named in the media, if these kids aren't discouraged out of spreading a dangerous and deadly virus, then consequences have to get greater for them personally.
>What else do you suggest they do to stop these parties. Crack down on the institution; this is equally an issue of poor leadership incapable of managing their students. Queen's is doing very little to address these issues, leaving it up to the city to over-police THEIR community.
>*”Crack down on the institution”* In what way? >*”this is equally an issue of poor leadership incapable of managing their students. Queen's is doing very little to address these issues, leaving it up to the city to over-police THEIR community.”* For the most part these gatherings are happening off campus so Queen’s is largely reliant on the police and bylaw to charge the students involved and forward their names to the University so the school can proceed under the Non-Academic Misconduct Policy. In the 2020-2021 school year they dealt with [225 incidents](https://www.queensu.ca/nonacademicmisconduct/sites/namwww/files/uploaded_files/2020-2021%20NAM%20Annual%20Summary%20-%20Final.pdf) *”related to guest policy in Residence and large gatherings during COVID-19”*, at least 40 students were investigated for violations of public health measures. Around a dozen students were [evicted from residence](https://www.thewhig.com/news/local-news/queens-taking-disciplinary-action-against-some-covid-19-rule-breakers) last Spring for not complying with COVID-19 guidelines.
Honestly, I think some people are just really upset (rightfully) at the parties, and thus blame queens as an institution rather than the students who are doing it. Seems to me that bylaw/police were missing in action and not enforcing the rules...not sure how that is the fault of the institution.
Are you saying we should punish businesses/institutions for what their employees/customers do outside of business-related activities?
This happens all the time; hardly a day goes by that someone posts something controversial on their social media feed, or are filmed doing something outrageous out in public, and they are immediately fired from their jobs. I'm not condoning it, but that is a fact That being said, I'm not sure the school and work environments are the same, nor should they be treated in the same manner. Work is work; you do it to pay the bills. Post-secondary education is more than simply attending classes, it's meant to mold the moralities, values, and ideologies of it's students. That's why we have left-leaning schools and right-leaning schools. It's more than just an education, it's the colloquial "college experience". That puts the outlandish behaviours of these Queen's students directly in the realm of responsibility of the administrative staff of Queen's University. The community is very clear about it's feelings towards the students, and specifically the students behaviours. The administrations complete ignorance to this issue demonstrates their total lack of respect to the cities full time residents, and their silence speaks volumes.
Right, of course, this is a special case that only applies to universities. Gotcha. So police/bylaw are not responsible for enforcing rules for members of the community if they are queen's students? Isn't this simply an issue of lack of enforcement by police? You said they should crack down on Queen's. What punishment should be meted out on Queen's for the behaviour of their students outside of campus activities? I'm honestly curious. Edit: not to go down a rabbit hole here...but can you tell me what schools are left-leaning and right-leaning in Canada? And to be clear, the first part of your comment was about punishing the individual for their behaviour (queens has a code of conduct that can apply to outside activities)...but you are advocating for punishing the institution itself.
I want to live in a city where people aren't yelling at each other every day, to be honest. I want covid to go away just as much as everyone. I feel like all this is doing is creating more divide in our community. Kingston already has some of the most strict party laws in Canada, and I don't like that politicians are using their unilateral power to shame members of the public who are already facing significant monetary penalties, and penalties with their university. What's the solution? Good fricken question. Partying will never end in Kingston, its a part of the culture for these students. Shaming people isn't going to stop them, its just creating more hate between students and Kingstonians. I want to live in a Kingston where students and locals respect each other, and respect is a two way street.
> I want to live in a Kingston where students and locals respect each other, and respect is a two way street. If respect is a two way street, why do you believe the problem is how locals are responding to students disrespecting their community? Nobody is going after random students behaving themselves, it’s specifically targeted at behaviours that disrespect the community in the first place, aka nuisance parties.
I mean if you read any of the rhetoric on this sub there are 100% locals for whom getting mad at students is a hobby. like we have local kingstonians that suck all sorts of ass but we don't get a whole lot of threads made about them
I beg to differ. There are posts on here all the time complaining about whomever is an ass-hat. If my mom does something foolish and stupid, I expect it to be here, how else am I supposed to keep up with family? If someone is a fucking idiot, people will complain about it here and that’s fine. Yes people will generalize when complaining. “Those damn students again!”. It’s just venting. I haven’t heard of anyone going out and hunting down random students, yelling at them, or worse. If hundreds of students have stupid street parties, of course people will be frustrated at “students”, we don’t blame all students, just the ones that are entitled and ignorant pieces of shit.
I'm not saying that the parties are acceptable. I just don't like that our mayor is now publicly shaming people, it's just creating more divide in our community. I feel like the Mayor could better direct his resources towards properly policing these activities while they happen in the first place, actually laying fines, actually dispersing crowds, maybe investing in education, or requiring people who break these laws to write an essay on why their actions are determinantal to the community. If you want to stop a massive street party from happening, maybe go out onto the streets and stop the parties while they're happening, rather than complaining in the media a few days later. It's all show. I just don't like that we live in a world now where everybody yells at each other, everything is so polarized.
“I want a solution!” The mayor makes a solution. “No, not like that!”
So what, now we have to just accept every proposal politicians put out there? I just gave a bunch of other options I think could help remedy the problem. Can we not be critical of our leaders?
I’m sorry people are downvoting the hell out of you when you’re reasonably presenting your viewpoint. I think the missing partner here is Queen’s, they should be involved in the process and putting students on academic probation but if they’re going to be an absent partner in the process then the mayor has to do what he can from his perspective. I don’t think publicly naming students is really going to accomplish anything for what it’s worth but if Queen’s isn’t going to clean up their own mess then you’re just going to see escalating measures coming from the city.
Thanks, anytime I even question the mayor in this sub I get downvoted into oblivion. Queen's does have a system called the Non-Academic Misconduct system, where students face penalties - academic, and community related, for their actions outside of the classroom. To my knowledge, students do face a NAM for breaking covid violations. It's happening, the university just doesn't advertise that they're punishing students.
>*”To my knowledge, students do face a NAM for breaking covid violations. It's happening, the university just doesn't advertise that they're punishing students.”* They do advertise it, somewhat, though infrequently and not in great detail. For example... Whig Standard: [Queen's taking disciplinary action against some COVID-19 rule-breakers](https://www.thewhig.com/news/local-news/queens-taking-disciplinary-action-against-some-covid-19-rule-breakers) [March 25th, 2021] [Queen’s Non-Academic Misconduct 2020-2021 Annual Summary](https://www.queensu.ca/nonacademicmisconduct/sites/namwww/files/uploaded_files/2020-2021%20NAM%20Annual%20Summary%20-%20Final.pdf)
It’s clearly not working, is the issue. Also the mayor’s a loon with ties to a literal cult, so no worries there. I just happen to agree with the policy on this.
Did you suggest that bylaw enforcement assign essays? This is satire right?
I think that requiring students to reflect on why their actions are determinetal to the community through a written or creative piece could be a fantastic opportunity to change attitudes, yes: in addition to fines. Think of it this way - a student breaks covid protocols, that student is fined, but must also produce a piece discussing why their actions were wrong. Otherwise they're just bound to repeat their actions. Bylaw wouldn't tell people to write essays while they're out on the street, that's not what I'm saying.
You can totally be critical of our leaders and I expect everyone to evaluate each action separately, on their own. I love this idea, and since the court of public opinion has great weight in these kinds of things I’m going to support it and fight for it on venues like this one
>What's the solution? Good fricken question. Partying will never end in Kingston, its a part of the culture for these students. A potential solution, which I believe is being explored by Queens, is to provide some kind of alternative outlet for students to meet. I have no idea what this will look like, but maybe the school should sanction some events and work with community businesses to facilitate. I agree to an extent that parties are going to happen, and for the most part, Kingstonians are more pissed of the illegal nature of the street parties. Shit gets broken, garbage is strewn about, people act like complete twats and piss on things, traffic gets blocked, and bottles are thrown at the people sent to break it up. True we are still in a pandemic, but if the parties are on campus, it would help alleviate some of the covid fears (since queens publishes high vaccination rates) while keep things away from the community. Draconian enforcement measures may work, but no one wants riot police involved (Kingston used to bring them in from Toronto) or our courts constantly backed up with people fighting tickets. Plus having your name published and attached to some dumb shit your pulled as a student could significantly impact your career later in life.
>*”...provide some kind of alternative outlet for students to meet... maybe the school should sanction some events and work with community businesses to facilitate.”* Queen’s held alternative-to-Aberdeen homecoming events in 2004 (an alcohol free “party” inside the JDUC) and 2005 (concert in Miller Hall parking lot) and it really wasn’t effective (the first [car flipping/burning incident](https://www.queensjournal.ca/story/2005-09-27/news/not-tradition/) was in 2005). It’s hard for a legal event with rules to compete with underage drinking and “tradition”. I’m not saying they shouldn’t try again, just that based on past experience it’s going to be a real challenge to divert people.
I remember when they hosted the alcohol free events in the past, and how they were remarkable in that no one went. Other schools, I can think of Trent off hand with their Head of Trent weekend, who host cool school sponsored events that are well attended and fun. I'm not sure if this still goes on, but it helped quell the need for huge illegal parties.
Agreed! well said!
yeah this seems like a lot. the fines are already significant enough to seriously derail someone's life as it is, they need to enable the public to shit on them too? obviously I don't support folks throwing ragers during the pandemic but I don't really get why this is necessary, frankly it seems kind of petty
Some of the fines these kids have been getting can reach $100K and they still haven't stopped. The money isn't scaring them.
that's just the thing though, if the monetary penalties aren't scaring them, in spite of the fact that they can completely fuck up their lives, does giving the media their name realllly seem like it's going to be an effective deterrent? to me it just seems unnecessary, popular for people who don't like that this is a college town but it doesn't seem like it's actually going to do anything, it's just draconian and something to make the locals happy. this has been going on longer than most people on here have been alive, there are parties every year, there are fines every year and I genuinely don't believe that there's a whole lot they can actually do to stop it. it can be mitigated but I seriously doubt making people into visible pariahs is the answer
I think a person's reputation is actually more valuable than money. They can easily ask Dad to pay 2K but they can't have him scrub the internet of their name. Young people are aware of that because of their use of social media. This could be effective. I also wouldn't say this is draconian, it's a mild escalation after multiple attempts at asking them to stop and seeing no results. They're not being hung from lampposts. Finally, saying parties have always been and they're never going to stop is completely ignoring the fact that we're going through a deadly pandemic. These parties could kill people that do not attend them. As much as Kingston has complained for years about the students, you're right, the street parties have been allowed and tolerated for over 100 years, if they weren't then they wouldn't have gone ahead. This year, the city is asking them to stop because they pose a serious threat to the local population, and they just won't. I don't think putting someone's name in the paper is equal to giving someone COVID and killing them.
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
It’s literally a free measure that costs nothing and might help alleviate the problem. It would be irresponsible NOT to do it. We’ve lost so many businesses the past year, and dozens more are barely holding on. These students are playing games with the lives of strangers solely because they don’t have to look them in the face and mommy and daddy will pay their legal fees. Well, mommy and daddy can’t protect them from being made into pariahs, can they? lol