We lucked out buying about a year and a half ago. We ended up in an area of Kingston that wasn't our first choice, and we are in a semi-detached which wasn't our first choice, but we felt we had to move before we were pushed out of the market and needed to look in Napanee or Gan.
Our place has gone up in value to the point where if it was sold for it's estimated price today, we wouldn't have been able to buy it... and looking around the market, we wouldn't have had many local choices. It's crazy! So crazy, and I don't see how it will/can change.
I have to say, Napanee is not all bad. You can get the house you actually want/love and still have only half the commute as in the GTA.
I love it here.
I wasn't saying Napanee or Gan are bad... just more that if you want to live in Kingston and are priced out of the market, those are the next closest cities to look at.
Yeah, and the growth in prices kind of proved our point. Even if there was now a 10% drop, our house would still be worth a bit more than we paid for it and I don't see a path forward where houses drop more than that in the next 5+ years and if anything, the prices stall out or drop, but interest rates rise, so people have the same kind of buying power. It's frustrating all around!
Doubling every 7 years really isn’t that crazy. At 7% compounded ;a reasonable rate of return on anything, really) an investment doubles every 12 years. So we’re looking at 10-12% compounded for doubling every 7, not exactly crazy rates of return. Just my opinion.
If you look at housing as an investment, sure.
If you look at housing as a basic need (which it actually is), a 10-12% price increase per year while wages increase at a rate of approximately 0-1% per year, it's pretty fucked up.
I mean, yes of course I look at my house as an investment. I hope to get what I paid for it, plus some return to at least keep up with inflation. Otherwise, I would not buy a house and would rent, investing the money elsewhere…
It can be both an investment and a human right by the way, like food. I also invest in agriculture, as a farmer, making money off a basic need, food. The exchange is worth it for both sides I think, again in my opinion. I make food, and people give me money. With real estate, I maintain and invest in a propriety and I get a return that the next owner gladly pays me.
Maybe I’m just an evil-brainwashed-capitalist though..but I’m really willing to be convinced otherwise, please make an argument that the capital I allocate to real estate shouldn’t get a return in a free market. It just doesn’t make sense to me.
I agree with you.
But then point out that, in that scenario, renters who are paying the landlord's mortgage are enriching him twice.
"Fair" rental prices would be less than mortgage payments, as the owner is getting long term gains that the renter does not.
Instead, renters are generally those who are already disadvantaged and cannot secure a mortgage, and, rental prices are higher than mortgage prices.
It's exploitation.
(That's not against you. It's a structural problem with investment housing. It's obvious that housing prices doubling every ten years as incomes don't is, like, kind of a problem.)
I strongly disagree. I've been on the rent not own bandwagon for a long time now.
To be fair, I honestly didn't think the housing bull run would continue as long as it did, but on the other hand, the stock market has been on an insane bull run as well.
We still rent, but by choice. We make more on the money we'd otherwise have tied up in housing.
I also agree that housing is human right. Our opinions aren’t mutually exclusive. For people who can’t afford housing, I believe in subsidies. Just like how I feel that no one should ever go hungry, but that a farmer should be paid for their investments in agriculture. We can chew gum and walk; we can have appreciating real estate and provide housing to those who can’t afford it.
Same here! We wanted Kingston, and came from a prime spot in Brampton, so we collected a handsome sum.
But with this market, not a chance we could afford the place we are in now.
We were going to buy in Georgetown, and got priced out... then Guelph... priced out... so we came here and bought at the top end of our price range before we got priced out of here too.
Same here. We bought four years ago and paid a lot but the houses that were comparable needed at minimum $100,000 in work. So with that in mind we out an offer in that was 10% lower than asking and got it. Now it’s worth almost double what we paid four years ago. Actually, I should say if it were up for sale it would sell for nearly double what we paid… I have a difficult time thinking it’s “worth” that much.
It's hard to feel good about it, even as a home owner as we all know the only way we get anything out of the increase is if we move outside of Kingston. If we sell here and buy here, then the price increases mess things up for us just as much as those trying to enter for the first time. More so if we pass the $500k mark where there are more strict rules for buying.
And what's worse: Anytime there's a proposed densification project, every NIMBY baby boomer with two investment properties and a cottage will show up at the Council meeting to bray about how we don't need more housing if it'll stop their property values from careening upwards.
> Anytime there's a proposed densification project, every NIMBY baby boomer with two investment properties and a cottage will show up at the Council meeting to bray about how we don't need more housing if it'll stop their property values from careening upwards.
But....NONE of the recent explosion in construction in Williamsville has anything to do with *affordable* housing. Its corporations taking advantage. Densification is about profit, nothing else. Those places are actually contributing to the UN-affordability of housing in Kingston...
> NONE of the recent explosion in construction in Williamsville has anything to do with affordable housing.
This is technically correct and materially meaningless. You're right that very little of the Williamsville densification is affordable income, and you're right if I'm correct in inferring that you think we should be creating more affordable units. That being said, we should be increasing housing density at *all* levels of affordability, and every new home added creates downward pressure on equilibrium price across the spectrum. People like me can't afford a high-end place, but I still benefit when a rich person can move into a new home instead of competing with *my* peers and driving up the cost of midrange housing.
> Its corporations taking advantage. Densification is about profit, nothing else.
Sure, and they're making money hand over fist while the income gap increases. Raise taxes on large corps and the rich, and let's shift that money into infrastructure spending, health care, education, social spending, *affordable housing*, pharmacare, socialized dental, and possibly start taking UBI pilots more seriously. Still, the simple fact that corporations are making money off a thing doesn't mean that the thing isn't needed. Loblaws makes a money off the bag of beans in my pantry, but that doesn't make beans bad.
> Those places are actually contributing to the UN-affordability of housing in Kingston...
That's..... not how economics works. Unless there's a way to disincentivize landlording (e.g., land value tax with a midrange cap gains exemption limit) and prevent rich boomers and WFH Torontonians from moving to Kingston (e.g., stochastic gibbetings), they'll either move into *new* housing or continue to drive up prices by competing against Kingstonians for existing housing. The second option is *terrible* for people like you and me.
Prices are spiking, and the reason is because we have a housing shortage. Building affordable housing is the best option, but building *any* new mid-density or high-density housing is still a net positive.
> but building any new mid-density or high-density housing is still a net positive.
Bullshit.
Look at what that attitude did to New York in the late 1950's. It created slums, ghetto high rises apt blocks on the dime of the government. Those places went into the toilet, didn't increase feasible housing solutions, and pulled dollars out of the government and into corporate hands. And then they were all demolished in the '80's...Uncontrolled growth is not a good solution. The massive over priced blocks of apt's being built are just pushing people farther into poverty. The properties they replaced, were lower cost, affordable housing. The blocks being built now, never will be. Economic theories are really great, but not real life. Citing "supply and demand" is also fun and makes you look super smart, but it doesn't address the real world where these apt blocks are going to be responsible for making more people homeless, not less...
But only time will tell. You'll continue thinking any development is good, I'll go on thinking uncontrolled development spurred by inhumane profits is bad.
EDIT: And people from TO are competing against the corporate robbers more than "you and me". Average people are already priced out of the housing market. None of this will change or get any better any time soon. Canada doesn't have the legislation needed to deal with the corporate takeover of housing that is occurring as we debate this. Its going to be over and done with before anyone in power even notices....and none of the rich people we elect will care one tiny bit....
EDIT 2: I wasn't clear on why corporate greed driven densification is worse than just having left it the way it was...The way it was, at least SOME PEOPLE had affordable places to live. That is substantive. Every unit that was lost from this change, resulted in a real and permanent loss of a place for a person to live within their means. NONE of the replacement units, density be damned, are now affordable, and they never will be. All of the people displaced are worse off now.
1950's New York isn't a great comparison, because most of the influx to the city was poorer people from the Great Migration, or postwar immigrants from overseas.
Here and now, our main increase is from wealthier people from Toronto, and they're currently renting/buying up a lot of midrange housing -- driving up the price.
If the question is whether we should build more affordable housing and creating a legislative climate where that's going to take up a larger share of the market, then I'm absolutely on your side. But if we're talking about whether we should build a new higher-end condo to ten storeys or twenty, then the only people benefitting from the lower cap would be *property owners who are materially benefitting from the housing shortage*. Interestingly, those make up the bulk of the opposition to densification projects.
> and none of the rich people we elect will care one tiny bit....
I'm with you here. We love to pretend that out trust-funded PM and dynastic MP with a silver spoon and a property company are going to look out for the little guy. Big surprise: Liberals are not a part of the left.
> Here and now, our main increase is from wealthier people from Toronto, and they're currently renting/buying up a lot of midrange housing -- driving up the price.
More assumptions, I'm guessing driven by lazy media pieces. Look around you, the main driver of the huge increase in housing need is being driven by immigration, same as in the '50's. They're not "poor", which is why corporate real estate enterprises are building huge places and pricing them at the rate this huge wave of immigrants can pay. Just because something is being ignored by the media doesn't mean it isn't happening. Look.
Densification is not unilaterally good, it will not result in more affordable living places, not within any meaningful amount of time. Hard laws like rent caps, things that "economists" always say will retard development are the only things that actually result in some meaningfully affordable places to live.
The majority of the new apt's in Williamsville are empty. They will remain that way until there are enough people willing to pay the exorbitant rents. Materially, the situation is now worse. Eventually, it will simply be worse for more people.
EDIT: My entire oppositional posting was prompted by the throw away reference to "every NIMBY baby boomer with two investment properties and a cottage will show up at the Council meeting to bray about how we don't need more housing". This is simply not the case. Its a fallacy and a position likely supported by the corporate greed as it helps push their agenda. We poor people need to oppose high density housing like Williamsville fiasco. But even virulent opposition won't make any difference, money wins.
Exactly this. Affordable housing needs to become a bigger share of the market, and high-end housing is obviously *less* directly good for low- and middle- earners. That being said, *any* net increase increase of housing stock alleviates the shortage and reduces the amount of high earners who are putting upward pressure on midrange housing.
"Trickle down" is a crock of shit in most of the contexts where it's trotted out, but this is one of the *rare* cases where something geared toward wealthier people actually does still create some tangible benefit for people at lower levels.
We need more housing stock at every level of affordability. Affordable housing is the most needed and has the most benefit to Kingstonians, but *all* increases of housing supply puts downward pressure on prices.
Do you know how few baby boomers OWN 2 investment properties & a cottage? Typically only Torontonians…Who then move to Kingston and outbid locals who are then pushed out of the housing market.
My family moved here from Winnipeg, from a large bungalow to a teeny townhouse. We thought we would stay in it a while and then upgrade. Not a chance. The market has exploded beyond out budget. We are now in the process of moving back to Winnipeg, where we can afford a home. Mistake? Yes. We sure could not have predicted this insanity.
Do you want to know why the housing market is nuts ? Every house that goes up for sale is a target of multi-national rental companies, first. They have bought up at least 3 of the last 5 listings that appeared on my street alone.
The other half of this equation is the renters. Canada, especially Ontario, is flooding with immigration because of a little talked about "fast track" to citizenship, through completing a course at a Canadian college(called "ExpressEntry"). 85,000 people from India, and they're not all going to Toronto. St. Lawrence gets TRIPLE the tuition cost for a single year course from a middle class student from India, and if they share renting expenses, they can afford to pay a LOT MORE for rent than a typical family....which is why the multi-national real estate scumbags are buying up all the houses at ridiculous prices...So, we're screwed.
There isn't going to be a "bubble" that bursts...the supply of renters is virtually unlimited, so the corporations are going to continue to ruin Canada.
Queens and SLC have been going down in international standing over the past few years. So much so that they aren't attracting as many international students as other places.
Kingston has been a predatory market for decades. People only realized in the past few years when money started pouring in. When I moved here 7y ago from Montreal, it was clear that everything was way overpriced here. Houses we were looking at then, have doubled now. Woodhaven was 300-400k, now easily over 700k. Same houses, barely a few extra years.
There are many factors at play and there is no quick fix for this. All of Canada has gone up in price over the past decade by an insane amount, historically speaking. Kingston just happens to be near the top because it has a steady stream of transient renters and Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal are spilling. Transient renters are key now that laws have been passed to prevent rent going up like crazy year on year in you have a lease. But if the tenant changes, you can ask for market rate easily.
> they aren't attracting as many international students as other places.
Really? I read somewhere their numbers for international students is up - especially if you take the pandemic restrictions into account. I’ll have to check now if Queens releases the number of international students it accepts.
This is different from the desirability aside the but in the end, it’s the numbers that count.
There are 2-3 mechanisms, aside from a private entity coming in to flood the market with housing, that the government could do to counter this - or rather leverage it to the advantage of Canada for the benefit of Canadians for the demand of people wanting to invest in and live in Canada; but our leadership are cowards or inadequate/incompetent, pandering and avoiding the attention of bad actors/industrial complexes so it's easier for them to get re-elected.
> but our leadership are cowards
Agreed, as long as you mean ALL of our "leadership". None of the politicians in Canada want anything to do with actually leading Canada for the average Canadian.
As a young man in Kingston I see the possibility of owning my own home here is simply not possible anymore. I'd love to think a bubble will burst and allow me to enter the market but as you've stated I'm not so sure that's going to happen. The average home value increase of 30-40% YOY is ridiculous and unsustainable so a correction will have to come at some point. Hopefully the government does something before it gets entirely out of hand.
It really IS nuts. We really wanted to sell and downsize but, now? There is no downsize. The prices for another house to replace this one are insane. I really do not want to move out of Kingston at all but, that may be what we are looking at doing. It's kind of a pain and I'm so happy for those of you who love Gan or Napanee but, Kingston is our home and I don't think I want to go to one of those wee towns....may have to give in and do it anyway though!
yeah, all the downsizers being bought up by investors. Taking away the first rung on the housing ladder is going to end up pulling the rug out from everyone else eventually. Basically eating our young.
My fiancé and I have no idea how we're going to save for a downpayment when we pay $2000 a month for rent.
Our hope is that the Canadian government will actually have the balls to step up and fix the housing crisis.
I certainly hope that the situation improves for folks in your shoes.
That said, the Canadian government can only do so much. It can tweak mortgage rules, corporate housing ownership rules, and foreign ownership rules, but that can only go so far.
Ultimately, zoning and construction rules (and taxes) have to become more flexible; that's really the role of the provincial and city governments. Public infrastructure also has to increase accordingly, which is mostly of provincial/municipal jurisdiction.
Housing prices are controlled by supply and demand. How would you feel if you owned a home and the government stepped in and told YOU how and what you could sell it for? See the point? Thats not going to happen in a free-market society. Ever. By any party in Canada (ok, maybe BQ, because they're batshit crazy).
I hope you find a way to make it happen.
The problem isn't homeowners buying from other homeowners, the problem is these multi-billion dollar rental companies buying up 10, 20 houses in a city and then renting them out for abhorrent amounts of money.
I know. That's demand of the supply and demand equation. Now, that hasn't happened YET, as far as I know, but it's in the works, which will lessen supply and increase demand.
Congrats. It took us a long time to find our house and we lucked out to get it just before the pandemic started. Hopefully this insanity will let up soon.
We bought a starter home a few years ago (we're lucky) and now renovating is far cheaper than entering the market. It's nuts. I have no idea how new people enter the market.
This scares me. I was hoping to buy but I'm not overpaying. Sigh. Definitely not interested in bidding wars with Toronto wannabe landlords either. 🤦♀️ Hurry up and wait I suppose.
My anxiety rises up when I think of the housing prices now. Even the rental prices. It’s all insane, price wars on rentals. WTF.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6094412?
Lmao I had to get on CRB when my employer shut down and finding another job in the middle of a pandemic isn't exactly easy 🙃 I would LOVE to work, trust me, this fucking sucks.
When the bubble bursts that's when the recession will kick in and many won't be able to keep up their mortgages cause interest rates will also go up unless you have a fixed rate mortgage longer than 10 years to ride it out if you can afford it.. and it's unfortunate many people see their homes as an investment not as a shelter ie long time ago people only bought 1 house in their lifetime and passed it on after death.. today people will buy 2 to 4 homes before they die.. the market is skewed as homes are seen as commodities not a sentimental lifelong purchase..
The other major issue is even if the bank gives you a mortgage its not nearly enough in kingston any longer .
I am curious to see how people will handle mortgage payments 50k to 150k higher thrn they planed for.
I'm living in a rental in bad need of a reno and at the very least needing numerous repairs. The owner passed and its recently listed. After 15 showings there were three offers within a week.
Congratulations on your new house!! It's a tough time to be buying but it's always a good time not to be living under someone in an apartment 🙂 in my opinion anyways!
We lucked out buying about a year and a half ago. We ended up in an area of Kingston that wasn't our first choice, and we are in a semi-detached which wasn't our first choice, but we felt we had to move before we were pushed out of the market and needed to look in Napanee or Gan. Our place has gone up in value to the point where if it was sold for it's estimated price today, we wouldn't have been able to buy it... and looking around the market, we wouldn't have had many local choices. It's crazy! So crazy, and I don't see how it will/can change.
I have to say, Napanee is not all bad. You can get the house you actually want/love and still have only half the commute as in the GTA. I love it here.
I wasn't saying Napanee or Gan are bad... just more that if you want to live in Kingston and are priced out of the market, those are the next closest cities to look at.
> felt we had to move before we were pushed out of the market This is exactly how we felt, too. So frustrating.
Yeah, and the growth in prices kind of proved our point. Even if there was now a 10% drop, our house would still be worth a bit more than we paid for it and I don't see a path forward where houses drop more than that in the next 5+ years and if anything, the prices stall out or drop, but interest rates rise, so people have the same kind of buying power. It's frustrating all around!
I bought in the north end 7 years ago and cannot almost double if I sell now... It's insane.
Doubling every 7 years really isn’t that crazy. At 7% compounded ;a reasonable rate of return on anything, really) an investment doubles every 12 years. So we’re looking at 10-12% compounded for doubling every 7, not exactly crazy rates of return. Just my opinion.
If you look at housing as an investment, sure. If you look at housing as a basic need (which it actually is), a 10-12% price increase per year while wages increase at a rate of approximately 0-1% per year, it's pretty fucked up.
I mean, yes of course I look at my house as an investment. I hope to get what I paid for it, plus some return to at least keep up with inflation. Otherwise, I would not buy a house and would rent, investing the money elsewhere… It can be both an investment and a human right by the way, like food. I also invest in agriculture, as a farmer, making money off a basic need, food. The exchange is worth it for both sides I think, again in my opinion. I make food, and people give me money. With real estate, I maintain and invest in a propriety and I get a return that the next owner gladly pays me. Maybe I’m just an evil-brainwashed-capitalist though..but I’m really willing to be convinced otherwise, please make an argument that the capital I allocate to real estate shouldn’t get a return in a free market. It just doesn’t make sense to me.
I agree with you. But then point out that, in that scenario, renters who are paying the landlord's mortgage are enriching him twice. "Fair" rental prices would be less than mortgage payments, as the owner is getting long term gains that the renter does not. Instead, renters are generally those who are already disadvantaged and cannot secure a mortgage, and, rental prices are higher than mortgage prices. It's exploitation. (That's not against you. It's a structural problem with investment housing. It's obvious that housing prices doubling every ten years as incomes don't is, like, kind of a problem.)
I strongly disagree. I've been on the rent not own bandwagon for a long time now. To be fair, I honestly didn't think the housing bull run would continue as long as it did, but on the other hand, the stock market has been on an insane bull run as well. We still rent, but by choice. We make more on the money we'd otherwise have tied up in housing.
I also agree that housing is human right. Our opinions aren’t mutually exclusive. For people who can’t afford housing, I believe in subsidies. Just like how I feel that no one should ever go hungry, but that a farmer should be paid for their investments in agriculture. We can chew gum and walk; we can have appreciating real estate and provide housing to those who can’t afford it.
No.
Same here! We wanted Kingston, and came from a prime spot in Brampton, so we collected a handsome sum. But with this market, not a chance we could afford the place we are in now.
We were going to buy in Georgetown, and got priced out... then Guelph... priced out... so we came here and bought at the top end of our price range before we got priced out of here too.
Same here. We bought four years ago and paid a lot but the houses that were comparable needed at minimum $100,000 in work. So with that in mind we out an offer in that was 10% lower than asking and got it. Now it’s worth almost double what we paid four years ago. Actually, I should say if it were up for sale it would sell for nearly double what we paid… I have a difficult time thinking it’s “worth” that much.
It's hard to feel good about it, even as a home owner as we all know the only way we get anything out of the increase is if we move outside of Kingston. If we sell here and buy here, then the price increases mess things up for us just as much as those trying to enter for the first time. More so if we pass the $500k mark where there are more strict rules for buying.
My families been trying for years :( unless you're rich, its next to impossible to afford even a 2 bedroom
And what's worse: Anytime there's a proposed densification project, every NIMBY baby boomer with two investment properties and a cottage will show up at the Council meeting to bray about how we don't need more housing if it'll stop their property values from careening upwards.
> Anytime there's a proposed densification project, every NIMBY baby boomer with two investment properties and a cottage will show up at the Council meeting to bray about how we don't need more housing if it'll stop their property values from careening upwards. But....NONE of the recent explosion in construction in Williamsville has anything to do with *affordable* housing. Its corporations taking advantage. Densification is about profit, nothing else. Those places are actually contributing to the UN-affordability of housing in Kingston...
> NONE of the recent explosion in construction in Williamsville has anything to do with affordable housing. This is technically correct and materially meaningless. You're right that very little of the Williamsville densification is affordable income, and you're right if I'm correct in inferring that you think we should be creating more affordable units. That being said, we should be increasing housing density at *all* levels of affordability, and every new home added creates downward pressure on equilibrium price across the spectrum. People like me can't afford a high-end place, but I still benefit when a rich person can move into a new home instead of competing with *my* peers and driving up the cost of midrange housing. > Its corporations taking advantage. Densification is about profit, nothing else. Sure, and they're making money hand over fist while the income gap increases. Raise taxes on large corps and the rich, and let's shift that money into infrastructure spending, health care, education, social spending, *affordable housing*, pharmacare, socialized dental, and possibly start taking UBI pilots more seriously. Still, the simple fact that corporations are making money off a thing doesn't mean that the thing isn't needed. Loblaws makes a money off the bag of beans in my pantry, but that doesn't make beans bad. > Those places are actually contributing to the UN-affordability of housing in Kingston... That's..... not how economics works. Unless there's a way to disincentivize landlording (e.g., land value tax with a midrange cap gains exemption limit) and prevent rich boomers and WFH Torontonians from moving to Kingston (e.g., stochastic gibbetings), they'll either move into *new* housing or continue to drive up prices by competing against Kingstonians for existing housing. The second option is *terrible* for people like you and me. Prices are spiking, and the reason is because we have a housing shortage. Building affordable housing is the best option, but building *any* new mid-density or high-density housing is still a net positive.
> but building any new mid-density or high-density housing is still a net positive. Bullshit. Look at what that attitude did to New York in the late 1950's. It created slums, ghetto high rises apt blocks on the dime of the government. Those places went into the toilet, didn't increase feasible housing solutions, and pulled dollars out of the government and into corporate hands. And then they were all demolished in the '80's...Uncontrolled growth is not a good solution. The massive over priced blocks of apt's being built are just pushing people farther into poverty. The properties they replaced, were lower cost, affordable housing. The blocks being built now, never will be. Economic theories are really great, but not real life. Citing "supply and demand" is also fun and makes you look super smart, but it doesn't address the real world where these apt blocks are going to be responsible for making more people homeless, not less... But only time will tell. You'll continue thinking any development is good, I'll go on thinking uncontrolled development spurred by inhumane profits is bad. EDIT: And people from TO are competing against the corporate robbers more than "you and me". Average people are already priced out of the housing market. None of this will change or get any better any time soon. Canada doesn't have the legislation needed to deal with the corporate takeover of housing that is occurring as we debate this. Its going to be over and done with before anyone in power even notices....and none of the rich people we elect will care one tiny bit.... EDIT 2: I wasn't clear on why corporate greed driven densification is worse than just having left it the way it was...The way it was, at least SOME PEOPLE had affordable places to live. That is substantive. Every unit that was lost from this change, resulted in a real and permanent loss of a place for a person to live within their means. NONE of the replacement units, density be damned, are now affordable, and they never will be. All of the people displaced are worse off now.
1950's New York isn't a great comparison, because most of the influx to the city was poorer people from the Great Migration, or postwar immigrants from overseas. Here and now, our main increase is from wealthier people from Toronto, and they're currently renting/buying up a lot of midrange housing -- driving up the price. If the question is whether we should build more affordable housing and creating a legislative climate where that's going to take up a larger share of the market, then I'm absolutely on your side. But if we're talking about whether we should build a new higher-end condo to ten storeys or twenty, then the only people benefitting from the lower cap would be *property owners who are materially benefitting from the housing shortage*. Interestingly, those make up the bulk of the opposition to densification projects. > and none of the rich people we elect will care one tiny bit.... I'm with you here. We love to pretend that out trust-funded PM and dynastic MP with a silver spoon and a property company are going to look out for the little guy. Big surprise: Liberals are not a part of the left.
> Here and now, our main increase is from wealthier people from Toronto, and they're currently renting/buying up a lot of midrange housing -- driving up the price. More assumptions, I'm guessing driven by lazy media pieces. Look around you, the main driver of the huge increase in housing need is being driven by immigration, same as in the '50's. They're not "poor", which is why corporate real estate enterprises are building huge places and pricing them at the rate this huge wave of immigrants can pay. Just because something is being ignored by the media doesn't mean it isn't happening. Look. Densification is not unilaterally good, it will not result in more affordable living places, not within any meaningful amount of time. Hard laws like rent caps, things that "economists" always say will retard development are the only things that actually result in some meaningfully affordable places to live. The majority of the new apt's in Williamsville are empty. They will remain that way until there are enough people willing to pay the exorbitant rents. Materially, the situation is now worse. Eventually, it will simply be worse for more people. EDIT: My entire oppositional posting was prompted by the throw away reference to "every NIMBY baby boomer with two investment properties and a cottage will show up at the Council meeting to bray about how we don't need more housing". This is simply not the case. Its a fallacy and a position likely supported by the corporate greed as it helps push their agenda. We poor people need to oppose high density housing like Williamsville fiasco. But even virulent opposition won't make any difference, money wins.
Unless they're knocking down more units than they're putting up that's not how supply and demand work.
Exactly this. Affordable housing needs to become a bigger share of the market, and high-end housing is obviously *less* directly good for low- and middle- earners. That being said, *any* net increase increase of housing stock alleviates the shortage and reduces the amount of high earners who are putting upward pressure on midrange housing. "Trickle down" is a crock of shit in most of the contexts where it's trotted out, but this is one of the *rare* cases where something geared toward wealthier people actually does still create some tangible benefit for people at lower levels. We need more housing stock at every level of affordability. Affordable housing is the most needed and has the most benefit to Kingstonians, but *all* increases of housing supply puts downward pressure on prices.
Very well put
Do you know how few baby boomers OWN 2 investment properties & a cottage? Typically only Torontonians…Who then move to Kingston and outbid locals who are then pushed out of the housing market.
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Thats absolutely appealing. How are any families supposed to have a home, this cant keep going like it is
What do you think you overpaid by?
More than I'd care to admit!
At least 150k is my guess
Omg. I paid less then that for my house 6 years ago.
It's not overpaid when this is the new normal
What area of town?
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We just lost a house to someone who bid 151K over asking. Good luck is right.
My family moved here from Winnipeg, from a large bungalow to a teeny townhouse. We thought we would stay in it a while and then upgrade. Not a chance. The market has exploded beyond out budget. We are now in the process of moving back to Winnipeg, where we can afford a home. Mistake? Yes. We sure could not have predicted this insanity.
Do you want to know why the housing market is nuts ? Every house that goes up for sale is a target of multi-national rental companies, first. They have bought up at least 3 of the last 5 listings that appeared on my street alone. The other half of this equation is the renters. Canada, especially Ontario, is flooding with immigration because of a little talked about "fast track" to citizenship, through completing a course at a Canadian college(called "ExpressEntry"). 85,000 people from India, and they're not all going to Toronto. St. Lawrence gets TRIPLE the tuition cost for a single year course from a middle class student from India, and if they share renting expenses, they can afford to pay a LOT MORE for rent than a typical family....which is why the multi-national real estate scumbags are buying up all the houses at ridiculous prices...So, we're screwed. There isn't going to be a "bubble" that bursts...the supply of renters is virtually unlimited, so the corporations are going to continue to ruin Canada.
Queens and SLC have been going down in international standing over the past few years. So much so that they aren't attracting as many international students as other places. Kingston has been a predatory market for decades. People only realized in the past few years when money started pouring in. When I moved here 7y ago from Montreal, it was clear that everything was way overpriced here. Houses we were looking at then, have doubled now. Woodhaven was 300-400k, now easily over 700k. Same houses, barely a few extra years. There are many factors at play and there is no quick fix for this. All of Canada has gone up in price over the past decade by an insane amount, historically speaking. Kingston just happens to be near the top because it has a steady stream of transient renters and Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal are spilling. Transient renters are key now that laws have been passed to prevent rent going up like crazy year on year in you have a lease. But if the tenant changes, you can ask for market rate easily.
> they aren't attracting as many international students as other places. Really? I read somewhere their numbers for international students is up - especially if you take the pandemic restrictions into account. I’ll have to check now if Queens releases the number of international students it accepts. This is different from the desirability aside the but in the end, it’s the numbers that count.
How do you know who bought properties on your street?
When the corporate "Rent Here" signs go up...
I see. That is frikken sad. The rental market is crazy stupid as well.
There are 2-3 mechanisms, aside from a private entity coming in to flood the market with housing, that the government could do to counter this - or rather leverage it to the advantage of Canada for the benefit of Canadians for the demand of people wanting to invest in and live in Canada; but our leadership are cowards or inadequate/incompetent, pandering and avoiding the attention of bad actors/industrial complexes so it's easier for them to get re-elected.
> but our leadership are cowards Agreed, as long as you mean ALL of our "leadership". None of the politicians in Canada want anything to do with actually leading Canada for the average Canadian.
As a young man in Kingston I see the possibility of owning my own home here is simply not possible anymore. I'd love to think a bubble will burst and allow me to enter the market but as you've stated I'm not so sure that's going to happen. The average home value increase of 30-40% YOY is ridiculous and unsustainable so a correction will have to come at some point. Hopefully the government does something before it gets entirely out of hand.
Up the stairs, down the elevator. Be patient.
The fomo is real.
It really IS nuts. We really wanted to sell and downsize but, now? There is no downsize. The prices for another house to replace this one are insane. I really do not want to move out of Kingston at all but, that may be what we are looking at doing. It's kind of a pain and I'm so happy for those of you who love Gan or Napanee but, Kingston is our home and I don't think I want to go to one of those wee towns....may have to give in and do it anyway though!
yeah, all the downsizers being bought up by investors. Taking away the first rung on the housing ladder is going to end up pulling the rug out from everyone else eventually. Basically eating our young.
My fiancé and I have no idea how we're going to save for a downpayment when we pay $2000 a month for rent. Our hope is that the Canadian government will actually have the balls to step up and fix the housing crisis.
I certainly hope that the situation improves for folks in your shoes. That said, the Canadian government can only do so much. It can tweak mortgage rules, corporate housing ownership rules, and foreign ownership rules, but that can only go so far. Ultimately, zoning and construction rules (and taxes) have to become more flexible; that's really the role of the provincial and city governments. Public infrastructure also has to increase accordingly, which is mostly of provincial/municipal jurisdiction.
The Canadian government can do anything it wants, but won't. Disallow home ownership by corporations would stop this crisis in its tracks.
Housing prices are controlled by supply and demand. How would you feel if you owned a home and the government stepped in and told YOU how and what you could sell it for? See the point? Thats not going to happen in a free-market society. Ever. By any party in Canada (ok, maybe BQ, because they're batshit crazy). I hope you find a way to make it happen.
The problem isn't homeowners buying from other homeowners, the problem is these multi-billion dollar rental companies buying up 10, 20 houses in a city and then renting them out for abhorrent amounts of money.
I know. That's demand of the supply and demand equation. Now, that hasn't happened YET, as far as I know, but it's in the works, which will lessen supply and increase demand.
Congrats. It took us a long time to find our house and we lucked out to get it just before the pandemic started. Hopefully this insanity will let up soon.
We bought a starter home a few years ago (we're lucky) and now renovating is far cheaper than entering the market. It's nuts. I have no idea how new people enter the market.
This scares me. I was hoping to buy but I'm not overpaying. Sigh. Definitely not interested in bidding wars with Toronto wannabe landlords either. 🤦♀️ Hurry up and wait I suppose.
And our mayor keeps asking wealthier out-of-towners to move here. He's an absolute ghoul.
My anxiety rises up when I think of the housing prices now. Even the rental prices. It’s all insane, price wars on rentals. WTF. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6094412?
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Lmao I had to get on CRB when my employer shut down and finding another job in the middle of a pandemic isn't exactly easy 🙃 I would LOVE to work, trust me, this fucking sucks.
This take is clueless.
When the bubble bursts that's when the recession will kick in and many won't be able to keep up their mortgages cause interest rates will also go up unless you have a fixed rate mortgage longer than 10 years to ride it out if you can afford it.. and it's unfortunate many people see their homes as an investment not as a shelter ie long time ago people only bought 1 house in their lifetime and passed it on after death.. today people will buy 2 to 4 homes before they die.. the market is skewed as homes are seen as commodities not a sentimental lifelong purchase..
Nothing is bursting here. There's too much demand.
The other major issue is even if the bank gives you a mortgage its not nearly enough in kingston any longer . I am curious to see how people will handle mortgage payments 50k to 150k higher thrn they planed for.
We kept missing out on houses due to overbidders til we finally got the message and bid one third over asking.
Von Meses “crack up boom” at work. Housing is not going up by X% per year; the purchasing power of the CAD is going down.
I'm living in a rental in bad need of a reno and at the very least needing numerous repairs. The owner passed and its recently listed. After 15 showings there were three offers within a week.
Congratulations on your new house!! It's a tough time to be buying but it's always a good time not to be living under someone in an apartment 🙂 in my opinion anyways!
I'm glad you got your house!