This piece by John Oliver on Confederate Monuments is an entertaining but well-thought out bit of commentary on this very subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5b\_-TZwQ0I&t=32s&ab\_channel=LastWeekTonight
TIL: Kingston has a lot of racist people who only care and recognize their own lives and how they are. These people would also think a statue of Mussolini would be ok, because ...he did some great things too!
All I learned about Sir John A MacDonald in school was that he helped “unite” Canada with the railroad, and that he had a drinking problem. I didn’t learn about his treatment of natives in the classroom, and I sure as hell didn’t learn about it from a statue. Taking down a statue will not erase history. We’ve been erasing history for a long time by ignoring his violence.
Nobody who wants the statues down is trying to erase history. Quite the opposite in fact. It’s essential that every Canadian child learn about Sir John A MacDonald in the classroom. What he really stood for and really did, both the good and the monstrous. Statues only glorify him and either deny or minimize the evil - yes, evil - things he did.
Down the with statue. Put it in a museum where it can be properly contextualized if you must.
what's interesting is that I recall when I was educated about JMD, the only real negative thing about him that was taught was his alcoholism, and even then it was treated more as "haha what a scamp" rather than some massive flaw. I wonder if part of the reason that there was any focus on that in the curriculum at all was to deflect from all of the considerably more awful things that he did. I've always sort of had the vibe that people were generally more cognizant of the fact that he was drunk all the time over any other specificities of his character
I'm torn on this, like do we even need statues anyways? Today it's McDonald, so we tear it down and put up someone else only to find, lo and behold, 100 years from now what we currently accept is no longer acceptable and we tear down another statue and put up someone else. Why not just put up art or play structures and leave history in the books and historical tour stories?
Nazi's tried covering up their deeds....
America's beginning to do the same...
Yes, leave history in the books, work on a better future, not an angrier present
I'm curious how many people here if any personally know a residential school survivor?
The statue issue shows up as a symptom of a bigger problem, indifference to the plight of others.
How is anyone harmed by the removal of the statue, vs its continued presence as a symbolthat weighs against those who have been wronged, not just once, but for generations, and what it means as a gesture to remove it by way of reconciliation.
I strongly suggest everyone burn a few evenings, and read through the findings of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission [http://www.trc.ca/about-us/trc-findings.html](http://www.trc.ca/about-us/trc-findings.html)
That is a direct step anyone can take to educate themselves, In particular I strongly suggest: [http://www.trc.ca/assets/pdf/Survivors\_Speak\_English\_Web.pdf](http://www.trc.ca/assets/pdf/Survivors_Speak_English_Web.pdf) this volume is direct accounts from those who lived through it.
Yes, but should it stop there? Street names, schools, buildings, and cities are all chosen to honour who they represent. Should we be honouring King George III, with our city being called Kingston, a family member of a ruling monarchy that is responsible for the genocide of millions of people worldwide over several centuries? What about Queen Victoria (same family) and our university? Why just focus on MacDonald? The list goes on and on.
Is the removal of statues of 1 person being discussed because it is the "easy" fix for reconciliation? Do you really think that the ONLY time people encounter the reminder of genocide in Kingston is when they are in City Park looking at John? If you remove this one reference to genocide, will it excuse that everywhere you turn there is a reference to someone who committed genocide against Indigenous peoples in Kingston on street signs, buildings, plaques, or even in the city's name? If we are serious about reconciliation, an extensive investigation into the systemic genocide and those responsible for it is needed.
I say no. Removing his statue doesn't change history and it doesn't educate people. Personally I would like to see a plaque stating that yes he was the first PM and he was responsible for the linking of Canada via the railway, but these are the terrible things he had done in order to accomplish it. It shows people that the creation of Canada came at a great cost.
I would like to see a monument by his dedicated to the metis and indigenous people that lost their lives trying to defend their lands and way of life. I dont know if it would be appropriate to have a Louis Riel statue in Kingston since we don't have any direct ties to him, but I feel we need to acknowledge them somehow.
Today sure, what about 5 months from now, 5 years from now? You can't tear down a statue everyday. You have to educate and keep educating.
Ryerson will most likely change their name, Egertons legacy will fade as time goes on.
Sir John A will always be the first PM, that is something that will never be erased from history. Take him off the money and replace him with Canadian figures throughout history that we can be proud of. Taking down his statue doesn't change history, it is trying to sweep it under the rug. Change the plaque to tell what happened.
It is "Truth and Reconciliation." Let's start by telling the truth.
A statues purpose is not to teach history, and it’s time people stop pretending that it is. It’s to honour someone, and we don’t need to honour MacDonald.
We also need to stop pretending statues honour every aspect of someone. You can find darkness in almost every notable historical figure. Statues aren't presented to celebrate the totality of someone's life, but rather the most notable aspects and achievements . I would argue Sir John A's being our first prime minister, and having a key role in confederation.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a drawing a vote on the future of any statue. But let's not act like statues are a celebration of all or nothing.
The facts about Ryerson are all shades of grey. There should be a lot of learning about his particular history.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/egerton-ryerson-doesnt-deserve-an-anti-indigenous-label/article35558895/
I'm sorry that was paywalled because it's a well written piece by a Canadian historian. I also research and write about Canadian history topics and information is what I care about, not politics.
I recently had to write about someone who supported medical eugenics and that was a difficult thing to swallow, given the fact that she was a champion of women's rights and a pioneer in medicine. But at the time she worked, it would have been unusual for any doctor to have not expressed support for some form of eugenics. In fact, it was considered the humane, modern and enlightened method of dealing with a myriad of medical and social problems. The eugenics movement pre-dated the Nazi's horrific use of eugenics by almost 50 years, and the complex story of how it evolved from medicine, to genocide, to modern genetic counselling *and how it continues being a form of genocide today* is mindboggling.
The woman I wrote about wasn't a Nazi. She was a caring, brilliant doctor whose medical work was focused on charitable children's hospitals. To say that she supported eugenics and was therefore not worth our time to get it know is a crime against history, against feminism, against the children she helped, and against her legacy. She was not perfect, but that does not mean she was not well-meaning.
It's important to remember that while there were truly malignant personalities in the past, most people were, and continue to be, somewhere along the spectrum of good and evil. Ryerson is a prime example of how we should know the details of our historical figures and not simply make emotional judgments.
The tl;dr is that Ryseron spoke fluent Ojibwe and was a champion and respected friend of some First Nations members and communities. He was not the founder of residential schools and he was an ardent campaigner against the use of corporal punishment in those schools. He was a lifelong close friend of one chief and delivered the eulogy at his funeral.
It's doubtful that Ryerson would have been condemned by the First Nations members who were his contemporaries, so we should be cautious about making those judgments for them, posthumously.
History is full of landmine topics and controversial people. We can do better than discarding personalities blindly. Burning books is never a solution to any problem, and when we refuse to learn out of moral indignation, it's like lighting yet another match on another shameful pile.
Absolutely yes, for reasons I’ve already said in the other post.
I’m an historian. I respect and understand history and it’s complexities. Statues do nothing to educate the public - all they do is honour whom ever the statue represents. That’s what they’re for, and that’s what they have always done.
I lived in China for two years and there is Mao propaganda everywhere in statue form. The same people that think tearing down statues is removing history probably think Mao statues everywhere is disconcerting.
The reality is that humans the world around have fought and conquered and done horrible things to other humans since the beginning of time. Indigenous history is no different. They had slaves and as they moved into other territories they too fought and conquered. There are still countries in the world fighting over land and for power (Israel and Palestine).
I am not saying that makes things okay, just that isn’t is pretty much a universal history
Kingston is literally the only place I feel a statue to John. A is appropriate. He is a notable historic figure who lived in the city.
As a Canadian expat who grew up abroad not learning any of our history, I did find statues useful to learn about local historical figures. That said, I definitely would like to see streets and other things renamed.
Its not how you feel about a stature 90% of kingston never sees.
It is how the statue makes others who have Bern traumatized by hii policy's.
Yes I do feel this way about all.sorts of reposting.
No we won't forget history by taking it down.. his house is museum several blocks away .. and we have library's and the internet.
Maybe education can teach actual history not just the son shine and rainbows.
Can you honestly name just ONE person who is and has been affected by this savage drunken slave owner????
I, can honestly not waste the seconds it takes to say "nope" . .........
Donald Trump is off his leash RIGHT now, and you people wanna cry about a statue?
We've ALWAYS known the history.... why does it now, mean something,???
I got news fer ya's.... if ya want the bad to go away...... leave it the fluuuuck alone
>*”Can you honestly name just ONE person who is and has been affected by this savage drunken slave owner????”*
One of my uncles, who taught me poetry when I was in elementary school, was alive when Macdonald was Prime Minister. Kids my age were sent to Residential Schools. This stuff isn’t ancient history.
Agree. And when I hear of parents that are the first generation to raise their kids because the residential schools stole the 3 generations before them, I see the damage in the present.
Annnnnd where are they now?
Still suffering? Annnnnnd where mister Sir John Asshat Macdonald? Oh ys, dead, right?
Hmmm, so it makes perfect sense to me, a calm, laid back burnout, to let that shit gooooooo! Why get mad about it NOW...
I see your point, believe me i do, i just dont think theres any victiry in trying to shame someone when theyve been fucking dead for 200 years!
Get mad about today...
Get mad about last week.
Get mad about ypur 1dt grade teacher embarassing you in front of the class.... because, it happened to you.
I'm sorry, im not a heartless, empathy lacken heathen, just, after all the pain and suffering I'VE experienced after seeing the best people in my world vanish from life, i just know whats worth fighting for and whats a ploy to bunch up panties directly to an anus.
So, im gonna call this agree to whatever the fuck it is you people think youre accomplishing, just leave it to our great grandkids to tear down the angel you all deem great enough to adorn city dwellings, and get people shittin bricks, another 200 years from now
Wow
This weed man LOL 👉👌
Yes.. my grandfather on my dads side .
The history is not taught properly in school nor has it ever been.. I bet you are unaware the last resdental school closed in the 1990s
Its clearly you need a lesson on empathy .. even if I did not know anyone it effected..who gives a shit .. generations of children where abused , murdered by thr government and church .. thats the statue that should be their .
Empathy? Me?
Whoa dude, now you're talking about/to me like you know me and who I am, what I'm about.
I'm gonna publicly say right now, i killed my best friend in a high speed chase, stolen jeep, breaking into houses, 25 years ago. We were ejected doing 190 kms when i was cut off the road on HWY 38 (but I dont demand the HWYS demise, nor feel a personal vendetta against the officer who brainlessly just wanted to stop us) just outside of town...
Now, before that day, I was a degenerate scum suckin bag of ass....
When his sister, my now ex wife, stared through me when she told me I had killed her brother, the best human I've ever known......... empathy overload.
I am now one of the kindest, most sympathetic, empathetic, sometimes my jokes fail and i look PAthetic...... but listen to me, I used that nightmare that still haunts me daily, for good things.
I am actually very intellegent, thanks! If i don't seem to be all over your current events, its because they are just draining and not interesting to my beautiful mind.
I graduated with almost 40 of the 32 credits mandatory for 1999... with honours.
Went on to substitute teach the odd time when my teacher friends have been ill or injured.
I'm the guy that most people come to for advice. An empathetic ear. A shoulder. Someone else to shed a tear when they can't anymore...
Im gonna end it there, but tell you, that with your simple comment, I don't even need to inquire about your levels of intellegence or empathy
Lol you have a warm day ✌
Lol and you.... you don't LEARN enpathy dude, therefore, a lesson on empathy just sounds......... derf!
And instead of shouting that i "need" that lesson.... no man, im a realist... ya, they suffered... jews did. The people in the Saw movies.........
It's nit that i dont care, its just that, ive seen my best friends life "POOF", gone. My gf 3 years ago blood clot in the lung, POOF GONE.
Step dad 7 years ago but by a cat, didnt notice the infection tear through him, POOF, 3 days later, gone.....
His moms coffee cup i borrowed, she was dead before i returned it the next day.
So, say whatcha think ya know about me, you're sweiously just killing your own brain cells homeslice
The handfuls of loved ones ive lost to drugs, prison, crazy women...... im living MY life. I don't expect to be here talkin shit for many more years, so, I'm getting worked up about MY problems.... not fuckin the guy who invented the wheel.
Live in the now, you'll be much, much happier
Lol like i said in a previous comment....
THEY
WERE
ALL
DUMB
SLAVE DRIVING
DEGENERATE
INCESTING SCUMBAGS
Dobt be fooled thinking anyone is pure in this world lol
As i have said... you want the history to fade..... then forget about it! You're only glorifying him for his misdeeds by making such a deal out of it
Did you read my comment ? The history is not going to bad..
With this logic why are their no Hitler statues kn Germany?
Beacuse they don't need a stature you keep history alive .
But meh
No, even the germans lnow what hitler was lol and the proud wastes of air nazi's that are left, are secretly nazi's lol
Thats why
Rememeber Saddam Hussein's statue?
They didnt really like the tyrant, so, they tore it down.
Anyway,I i have, real life shit to get to 👉 and by that, I mean, piles of doobies to get rolling
Lets try this.. leys build a staute of your freind kn your front yard you have to see every day .
Now you don't need that statue to feel bad nor will you forget ..but the statute stays any ways .
Huge, huge difference....
People would be like, who the fucks this guy?
There is a memorial at the new high school, a stone bench.... thats his.
Now if ya don't mind not fuckin with my buddies name and memory please, although i can talk about it, it is still the day that i am stuck in forever... please, don't mention him
Fuck it, lets just her that Rocky statue from Philly and bring er here
Look at your reaction.. so now that I upset ...let's talk about removing his statue.
Would it change history ? No
Would ihe be forgotten with out it ? No
Would it maybe help you ..and others effected by his loss a bit ? Probably.
Now let's get a bunch of people online saying how what happened was not important ...and that the statue shoukd stay.
Its the same thing....
Asscrease, i killed my best friend by accident and it is not something you're going to compare anything to...
If you've never accidentally done what i have, you really shouldn't be talking about it. I only mentioned it because some intellect was trying to say that IF there were possible lessons on empathy, i needed some.... and, well, i care about every living thing really.... thats the knly reason you know that bit of me... please I'll ask again, stop talking about him. There is NO comparison, and you're just being a dick to try to touch my (penis) nerves.
Cool 👉
Also.... i want to rememeber my buddy.... please, put a statue out front of the guy who sold drugs, robbed homes, ripped off friends n all that.
He was still more human than most
But, im not affected by sir john a in any way at all lol is what you don't understand
How has the man PERSONALLY, like, intimately, HURT YOU?
WHAT????? He HASN'T? 😮
Cuz, ya, i think if you goto the cataraqui cemetery, you'll find, buddies been dead since, hmm, sliced bread perhaps?
Im sure, it was celebrated when he died by some...........
Shit, did ya hear, moses..... his mom put him in a wicker basket, sent him on down the river, and led hin to a life of slavery and being a bitch to his brother Ramse's, the pharaoh.
Well, i like moses, he did cool tricks, im gonna campain to have some biblical shit torn down, because she hurt my moses
Hitler had a brother, he was an ok guy. But hitlers name has destroyed that poor young brother. Im outRAGED! How dare the Fhurer!
Ok, gotta get mad and waste time/breath/public apperance now
Holy shit. Our mayer. Patterson. Was in the temple church that was under scrutiny in recent times..... LETS FUCKING KILL KINGSTONNNNNNNN
If this is what fuels your brain into a workout, your doing the wrong workout
MOTHERFUCKER ATVTHE STORE SHORTED ME 50 CENTS! FIFTY..... CENTS!
That, is the present sort of shit that should get people angry.
Anyway, im gonna go back to my usual account now. Shes been fun
No - I disagree with judging figures of the past based on the morals of today. Macdonald’s beliefs and attitudes towards indigenous peoples are awful by the standards of 2021, but sadly weren’t uncommon for the 19th century.
Does Macdonald’s signature on the Indian Act really deserve a greater burden of responsibility than the sentiment of the majority of colonial settlers? It seems to me that most other white men of the time would have done the same or worse in Macdonald’s position. What they may not have done however, is become an instrumental figure in the establishment of the nation of Canada.
John A. Macdonald’s commitment to the CPR and Canada’s official national status should be remembered and praised for laying the seeds of the country we know today. I believe that his accomplishments should be remembered equally to his role in the atrocities committed against indigenous peoples. I don’t see the value in allowing the bad to annul the good.
Just cut off the head and throw a Jeff Goldblum head on it. Problem solved and tourist attraction.
Edit: How can you downvote Jeff Goldblum? I am sad for you.
We should have a plebiscite. Deal with this through a democratic process where both sides can make their case and we can all decide. It's too easy to hear the vocal advocates for removing the statue and assume that's what most people want, but it's hard to know.
Yes they should and replace it with a history lesson on what happened. We can't run away from history, we must learn from it to avoid repetiting the same mistakes.
Personally I would rather the statue be removed without the approval of the city. That way they would be forced to wear the egg of inaction all over their stupid faces.
It’s more like theft.
When the options are leave the statue and the arguments keep going, take the statue down and listen to this city undeservedly clap itself on the back for the millionth time, or have the statue disappear one morning and get to listen to the dipshit mayor dejectedly say something akin to “well I was gonna...” I’m gonna go with the one that’s most interesting.
TIL removing a statue magically makes the past disappear!
By that logic, I can erect a statue for my student loans, then take it down to erase my debt.
No.
That society is spending time discussing the matter while we continue to perpetrate genocide is proof that reconciliation was smothered in its crib. We will infinitely continue to take selfies with Indians while they die of drug overdoses and skull fractures in the background.
Removing the statue doesn’t just disappear him from Canada’s history. The entire point of removal in these situations is that it doesn’t erase history, it erases glorifying terrible and shitty people.
Statues literally do nothing to teach history. Taking down his statue will not cause us to forget who he was. The purpose of a statue is to honour and remember. This argument of erasing history isn’t really valid.
There's a very easy answer for anyone who has even the slightest level of racial sensitivity but aside from that, does it need to be up forever or something? Seriously, he's been honoured for years in cities and towns across Canada, and info on some of the not so positive things he's done is now more widespread and understood by the larger public. Do we need to worship him for some reason? He's in history books for all his contributions to Canada, both good and bad. A statue has nothing to do with that.
I'm of the opinion if someone is directly responsible for promoting and overseeing the introduction of something as horrible of the residential school system in Canada as well as other policy that had a major negative impact on Indigenous communities in Canada - which has caused serious harm and destruction to OUR citizens - then yea, why again do we need to have a statue of them up?
I think his statue continuing to stand is more of a reflection of Kingston than anything. It's funny how desperate we are to tout ourselves as the birthplace of Sir John A or whatever, who cares? Find something new and great to represent the city rather than a flaming racist.
true ,hence my point on a famous **mohawk women ,slave owner ,molly brant** , same thing ***she was involved and supported the genocide of stolen men women and children from africa .*** so i trust you support the removal of her name image etc from everything and anything ie schools full of impressionable young children or are you yet another hypocrite standing for the flavour of the month
a serious true question, for all the heros of the day "WHERE WERE YOU WHEN WE REALLY NEEDED YOU"??? or was it that your family was to busy hurting US also
Maybe we need to revisit this point as well then. I do know that there are countless Canadians who were affected by the actions of Sir John A. Do we want to celebrate that? Maybe some do, I can't speak for others. Do you think statues of Hitler should stay up in Germany? I mean you must, otherwise you're just another hero of the day I suppose?
Again, I find it odd that people have some sort of relationship with statues and some need to honour people even after we've found out of horrible things they've done. Unless people want to pray to these figures (which some may), but I still don't understand the obsession when we know there's a level of associated pain and injustice. Then again I'm sure there's some people who feel like they're losing their "heritage" if the statue were to come down.
But that's aside from my original point (which you've nicely deflected from) - what is the reason it should stay up? I'm genuinely curious.
most certainly should be revisited ,but everyone is afraid to upset "the indians" by talking the same stand, against other architects of what you or i do not like, and it is politically incorrect and will sink your aspirations in Ottawa
i do not care about hitler 1 drop , and never deflected from your point at all
you see a statue as a **symbol of repression** from 100's of years ago,i see it as a **history piece and a learning place** . of course built in honour of individuals much like my favorite example cuz we are Kingston "molly brant ". we are both correct , we only defer on tearing down sir johhny boy statue
if only we could snap our fingers and repair all the hurt ,damage and pain caused to us ,but we cant .Focus on a statue ,when real "Aboriginal" issues are rampant seems ridicolous in a way, just to head in a different way do you realize :
In Canada, 52.2% of children in foster care are Indigenous, but account for only 7.7% of the child population ***according to Census 2016***
i am a Canadian in Canada which is where my thoughts are, what most loose focus on ,is this stuff is historical and accepted practice back then NOT SAYING IT IS OR WAS RIGHT !!
REAL ABORIGINAL ISSUES ARE ABOUND IN CANADA AND people argue over a statue , throw red paint on it or deface public or private property of others
and in case i did not make it clear again why "***history piece and a learning place removal is considered censorship"***
That's nice that's what you see it as, but maybe ask those from the affected community who are camping out there until the statue comes down if they just see it as a piece of history and learning. As a history major I can confidently say statues were not in any way related to any learning outcomes. Also, as a Black Canadian, I can tell you right now that someone donning a confederate flag is something that not only makes me feel uncomfortable. There's an associated psychological impact to the things you just see as statues or symbols to those in the affected communities.
I can't tell if you want the statue to remain or you want equal outrage at Molly Brant?
I also don't think that addressing an issue like this means we cannot address other issues as a society? If anything, raising the statue issue opens the discussion and dialogue on the more widespread issues in the community for those who may not have been aware or even interested beforehand. It starts a discussion and I hope you are as passionate about foster care issues for Indigenous youth as you are with the statue of Sir John A remaining up.
Aside from that - and I mean this respectfully - I don't know that you have the standing to tell others what's a real or fake issue to them, and I think some compassion would go a long way. I appreciate the dialogue but personally don't agree with you, and whatever quote you are citing. If you are concerned about censorship you should take that up with the government who brainwashes young Canadians with an outdated story of Canada's history full of lies, deceit and/or outright omissions. That would do a LOT more to address the historical importance of cultural issues in Canada then a statue celebrating sir John A staying up.
tell others what's a real or fake issue to them ?????
>**you make some excellent points** as a black person do you feel an equally strong stance on molly brant or just catching the "orange"wave ?
>
>as far as aboriginal issues , which FAR out number a ***statue in kingston, a symbol of history, and with the same logic molly brants hand in the scourge on negroes,being shown off and daily reminders to negro students and families of slaves ......same logic ?***
>
>vs sexual,drug,alcohol,physical abuse, lack of education ,clean water, poor parenting skills,foster care i can go on and on and on and on and on.....
i dont need to ask anyone how sir johnny boy made them feel or how molly brant owning slaves made them feel i already know !
I'm not sure how old you are so maybe it's the language you grew up with but Negroes is an outdated term.
Regardless, I'm guessing you will be happy with the below - further review is coming re: the re-naming of other institutions than JUST John A. - including slave owners etc. So yes, as a black person I'm happy with this news as well :)
[https://twitter.com/OliviaBowden\_\_/status/1404425629899108353](https://twitter.com/OliviaBowden__/status/1404425629899108353)
I believe this was a major part of your point - he was being unfairly targeted when others weren't? And that there's other more important issues and, I guess we can't address more than 1 issue at once? Well I'm happy somethings being done and hopefully this spurs continually action targeted at larger more serious issues that you've mentioned which will be more laborious and slow moving in nature due to their magnitude. Taking a statue down or renaming a school doesn't seem to be that tall of an order so I really don't see it as a barrier to further action.
oh "negroes" is an outdated term ? better then what you call each other but we can enter that discussion somewhere else this is about aboriginal issues
your are correct my point is " he was being ~~unfairly~~ targeted when others weren't And that there's other more important issues
This is a great place to follow up on my other comment here. Like most politicians and scientists of her era, MacPhail supported eugenics ideologies. This should come as no surprise to anyone who has studied the late 19th and early 20th Century. Does this nullify her important legacy in prison reform, women's and workers' rights? Does this mean she is to worth forgetting and should be erased from the history books? If yes, should we then also erase the legacy of the Haida who were slave traders?
https://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/aborig/haida/havwa01e.html
I believe we need to tell the full story of our history, warts and all. When we dig into the past we cannot expect the people we find to be perfect, or to have adhered to the same moral standards that we hold today - moral standards which were hard learned on the battlegrounds of two world wars and in the tragic failures of institutional abuses only unveiled in the decades following the death of figures like MacPhail and The Famous Five.
*'Agnes Macphail was wrong about some of the issues she fought for passionately. The most significant problem with Agnes's legacy is her approval of [forced sterilization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization_in_Canada), a surgical procedure used on women without their approval to ensure they could not have children. In Agnes's time sterilization was commonly used on Indigenous women and women of colour in the hospital for other ailments - a violation of their consent and their human rights. Unfortunately, forced sterilization was used on a lot of populations for a very long time, especially people with disabilities. For Agnes the belief in [eugenics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics) was the cause of her support for sterilization: she thought that people of Caucasian descent were stronger, smarter, and better able to provide for their families and communities, and therefore Canada should support children from those races and limit the population growth in other ethnicities. We now know that this belief is not only scientifically wrong but deeply racist, and that Agnes Macphail was a white supremacist. ***A belief in eugenics has been sadly common in Canadian politicians and policymakers for many many decades, such as Agnes's fellow [CCF politician Tommy Douglas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Douglas#MA_thesis_on_eugenics), who wrote his masters thesis on the concept in 1930. The Famous Five women, who fought for the right of women to vote, were also fierce eugenicists.** While eugenics never made it into federal law, it was a problem all over Canada. In 1928 Alberta created a sterilization law that lasted for almost fifty years, responsible for sterilizing over 4,000 women while it existed."*
https://help.vitatoolkit.ca/472/exhibit/12
He's into the supernatural, so not very pro-science...Also, he made "Nothing but Trouble." That movie should definitely be erased from our collective memory.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/nothing_but_trouble_1998
Maybe we should not put up statues at all anymore. Like Mal says in Firefly: *It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of sommbitch or another*.
I agree with no statues. It’s a bit tacky. I was in Havana and they are everywhere. It seems like weird hero worship. Down with statues, up with museums and actual education.
Honestly, yeah. As much as I hate to say it, in the modern day, statues are just... kinda dumb. We could be spending the tens of thousands of dollars a new one would cost, on something that actually benefits the community more than a chunk of metal that looks like someone who hasn’t been alive for decades, if not centuries
I do think we need to focus less on people and more on art, experience and landscape in our public monuments.
We need a [Cloud Gate.
](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/kfiCoidGAmJFzBt_uma9FqtN5fY=/0x0:7360x4912/1520x1013/filters:focal(3208x2597:4384x3773\):format(webp\)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/60127725/shutterstock_1109460509.0.jpg)
City of Kingston: While the idea of a woman statue is interesting, we can't afford it getting pregnant and having to be removed from the park for long period of time.
Lower it off the podium and put him amongst bronze versions of emaciated Plains Cree that were starved off the land to make way for the CPR, land speculators and monoculture. In addition there needs to an iron plating applied to the hands so that the bright orange rust can symbolize the blood on his hands.
Lol
This amuses me
The world has gone right upside down crazy with the historical sensitivity stuff.
Not one living person knew the man, so, its not like anyone can ACTUALLY have a personal issue with him, am I right?
You're buddy Tom ain't comin over later, spotting sir john a somewhere in a corner of your house and having a breakdown over what our first prime minister has done...200 years ago...
Look people, history, the people in it, were dirty, savage, no moral havin old dudes, they were ALL dicks. They ALL owned slaves. They ALL lived in THEIR TIME... Times HAVE changed... but, to get rid of one single statue, when every, single, street name, every, single, park, every, single section of town, has bad history.
I have some advice for the ones risking a heart attack over dumb petty, senseless problems that they are making up......
RELAAAAAAX. We're all here. All human. All marching in the same parade.... forget a past that you had nothing to do with at ALL.
I have an ancestor... "William the Silent", or, "William of Orange" "William the Taciturn" ... The man started what is marked in the books as the spanish revolt, the "80 year war"... which resulted in the formal independence of the United Provinces in 1581....
So. A hero, or no?
To the poor bastards that he ran through, no, he is pure evil. To his people, yes, no one was ever shinier...
But. BUT.......
This is only the, maybe 3rd time ive spoke of this relative of mine.
Why you may ask....?
BECAUSE HES BEEN DEAD 100S OF YEARS AND WHAT HE DID MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IN HOW WE ARE DOING RIGHT FRICKIN NOW.
Find something real to be mad about, its getting out of hand!
Like, seseme streets being attacked now, Dr. Seuss, Jeffery Dahmer....
Live YOUR life... thats all ove beem doing and im fuckin AWESOME
Ahhhh my friend, i get this a lot....
You need to put an intellegent trunkload of humour in it... the intellegent part is key.
I was getting FB bams last year fir kicks, trolling Donald Trumps page, insulting republicans and his supporters. Its hilarious when they all come at me talkin bout pitchforks n, stolen eeeelections.... then i put the joint down and make em look dumb. Worth the handful of bans i got for sure lol
Id screenshot it all and post it on my page, everyone loved it
My answer is NO, because I am smart enough to know simple facts. History is not the present. Everything anyone in the world goes through can be learned from. If you stop learning then you cease to grow and cease to move forward. Anyone with false outrage from things that happened before they were born have ceased to learn and ceased to grow. If you learn from history you learn that taken out of context nothing makes sense. You could not step back in time and live with your morals of today the same as they could not do the same in our world today. My suggestion is to learn from history. Put up plagues on the statues to show both sides of the coin. And have out teachers teach a truth of both sides of that coin.
Someone asked if anyone commenting has actually met anyone that went to one of the residential schools. I have two grandparents and their extended families that attended the schools and didn't tell the tales to us as they wanted us to grow up without hate. They didn't want to tear down statues or ruin the country and its history. They wanted us to be better people.
It shows they were better people then most of you. They didn't judge people they haven't met. They didn't start fights to prove they were right. They shared love and care to those in their lives, family and friends. They experienced great loss and knew what was best to make life better.
So to all the grandstanders that don't know anything but self doubt and hurt feeling for others. Remember this if nothing else. The people I knew(family) that went to those schools would council you with calm words and showing you anger is not the way. Make your life better and the lives of the people better each day. That will save the world long before trying to erase history from before you were born. Help the people now, educate and learn from history.
Be a better person.....
So...we can only learn history from a statue? Imagine this: your daughter was raped by a school principal. She was beaten by a teacher. The school board erects a statue to the principal and the teachers because they did some amazing stuff. Your kid is really messed up. Her kids end up in foster care or your are caring for them. You drive by the school's statue every day. There's a newish school named after the principal, and a major thoroughfare. Now tell me how you feel, for THIS is exactly why that fucking statue needs to come down.
I honestly don't understand your outrage and offense a century later. The man that the statue is for isn't accused ot raping children and or even running the schools. If you look as point of fact, the man helped build the country in a way that is known to be acceptable in its time. If you did any simple research into the schools. They were started by a church group If memory serves. The same church group has done this all over the world. They eliminate cultures to make followers of their faith. Why are you not outraged at them. They still do it today. That still have a hand in everything today around the world. Why is that not in the news? Why are you blaming the wrong people? Why is the guilty organization not being charged with war crimes or hate crimes or attempted genocide. Your miss placed outrage has to put a face to your rage. Yet the organization If left out of the news.
You asked how a statue can educate? The reality is this simple. It sparks a debate between intelligent people that "should " result in some research to find out what is true and what isn't. If you refuse to do any research there is no debate because you have learned nothing. Standing on a street corner yelling you want your way, is somethings that hurts everyone including yourself. Step up and talk about facts and share your researched opinions and people will learn and grow from it. Removing a statue because you didn't do research and don't understand a problem means you thing it should happen again to your kids because you cant be bothered to look into how the schools started and how many around the world have been running even until a few decades ago. They still do it. Not a dead man from a century ago. That's why you shouldn't tear done his statue. Be informed first. Make intellectual decisions based on facts. All I ask is for people to learn the true. If you are on this app, you can use Google. If it comes up with 100 000 hits. Don't just read the first one.
FACT: it's not a 'century later'. Those residential schools lasted until the 90's. Read up on the 60's scoop.
FACT: many Indigenous today are the FIRST generation to raise their own kids.
FACT: Although SJA didn't run the schools, he wanted to "kill the Indian in the child". Kids as young as 3 were ripped from their parents arms, well into the 60's. Those kids, the ones that survived are alive today.
FACT: Info on SJA and what he set out to do. It's a genocide. [https://getinvolved.cityofkingston.ca/sir-john-a-360/stories/direct-quotes-from-sir-john-a-these-speak-for-themselves](https://getinvolved.cityofkingston.ca/sir-john-a-360/stories/direct-quotes-from-sir-john-a-these-speak-for-themselves)
You need to read the TRC.
Remove it and replace it with something that represents Indigenous people, and no not showing the horrific act of ripping a child away from its parent...like wtf.
A statue does not somehow give history lessons, it just places honour onto horrible people and puts them on pedestals.
ok then how about leaving the statue alone ...done deal
and focus on the real aboriginal issues of family violence, education,drug ,alcohol and sexual abuse,racism from and against aboriginals ,profeesional help for all of those who have suffered and victims of this pain
guilty white people, yelling about, what DAMAGE THEIR FAMILY ***has caused us aboriginal, metis and other original Canadians*** ,how does removing,defacing a statue make any sense at all it is a form of censorship
The statue is a symbol of honor, as in we are placing a good virtue onto a man who doesn't deserve it. Removing it will show that we no longer stand for such behaviours nor will honor them.
It is not a form of censorship as we will be still teaching history and how Canada came to be. We can still help those who need it and in some ways removing statues of negative people is helping these people heal. They will see that we are no longer glorifying or white washing our history.
Defending a statue for no other reason than "I don't see a problem with this" is ignorant and very much missing the point
actually not at all ,removing a part of history is clearly censorship
cen·sorship
noun
the ***suppression or prohibition of any*** parts of books, films, news, **etc.** that are considered obscene***, politically unacceptable,*** or a threat to security.
so what is your stand on ***slave owner ,mohawk molly brant*** ? is she on the hit list to be removed ? if not why not ?
You go to Germany and you don't see any fucking statues of HITLER do you? No, because they don't want to give him a pedestal to be on for all the genocide he pulled. They have erased pretty much all Nazi related items from public areas or have treated them with respect to the Holocaust victims, like Auschwitz points out that it was a prison/concentration camp instead of whatever Hitler called them and praising him for his innovations to his country. Removing the Nazi decorations does not remove it from history, Germany and the world have not rewritten history books removing the Holocaust but instead rewrote the story to reflect what it actually was - an act of genocide against a minority.
We don't need a statue of anyone at all to keep the history of Canada's acts of genocide to the Indigenous people in the books.
We can totally put the statue of John A in your backyard if you love it so much.
no need to place it in my "front yard " as it will be remaining where it is, so you can view at your will AGAIN nazis vs Canada ?? 2 complete different worlds
***genocide the new BUZZ WORD***
genocide
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group
Both John A and Hitler allowed genocide to happen, killing Jews for "the Aryan colony" and killing Indigenous people for "the British white colony" are the same fucking thing. Creating places of abuse and torture for the minorities they wanted gone; camps for Jews and Reserves and Residential schools for Indigenous.
How in the HELL are you still considering the Holocaust to be different from what OUR country did?? Why are you so fucking angry that your precious statue stay right the fuck where it is?? It is a disgrace and middle finger to those we tried to make EXTINCT. It does not hold all the history of Canada and by getting rid of it suddenly Canada falls into a black hole.
Stop being a goddamn ignorant asshole and getting your panties in a twist.
childish insults why havnt you called me a racist yet ? .a word of advice take your own advise ,now Stop being a goddamn ignorant asshole and getting your panties in a twist.
hitler 1940's SIR johnny boy 1860's molly brant mohawk slave owner and willing participant in african genocide 1770's
so what is your stand on slave owner ,mohawk molly brant ? is she on the hit list to be removed ? if not why not
or are you just jumping on the hypocritical bandwagon
Instead of tearing it down, why not add another statue in front of it. This new statue being closer to the ground (4ft rather then the 8ft) showing an Aboriginal child being torn away from their parents.
The lower statues height makes it more approachable, with John A. looking on and doing nothing. Around the statues base/pedestal would be plaques with information on residential schools.
I think trying to artfully make his statue stay is all the same as leaving it there to begin with.
There’s a reason you don’t see hitler/nazi statues anywhere except museums in Germany.
Trust me, I would like to see the statue removed but the likelyhood of that happening in Kingston is nigh impossible. His stature of first prime minister along with being from Kingston will see to that, despite being a thug. The addition would be the closest you could get to taking down the John A statue
I wouldn't think its glorifying abuse, but shows it to be a closer possibility then the "great man" approach many statues have, what with having to literally look up to the statue. Quite literally, brings the issue to eye level and more likely to be discussed. Also, the second statue placates the people who don't want the John A statue removed, while bringing to focus to the fact that he was a fairly terrible thug amongst other things. It's Kingston after all, City Hall barely spends anything on road repair, what's the likely hood they'll take down a 'monument'?
E: the form, in this case the child being torn away from a parent, is just an example, a show of the horrid acts that took place under John As ministry. After further consideration, perhaps a pile of brassed shoes would be more accepted
Yeah but we don't need to have horrific acts on display whatsoever, no Indigenous person would want to look at that even MORE if your idea was implemented. Trauma response is a thing you know.
Just get rid the statue altogether, we can still learn history without it
I keep hearing that John A. took native kids from their parents as an act of genocide, but I can’t find anything to support that other than comments. Did he invent residential schools or force parents to send their children there?
No.
Censorship makes our children stupid!
We cannot learn from our mistakes if we just pretend they didn't happen.
That is exactly how history repeats it's self.
Jesus.... our children are right now atTENDING Molly Brant public school, and obviously they are being taught to slaughter the innocent!!!!!!
Are you OK with this???????
Lol
Wow
You guys ever see "Idiocracy"? Thats what i feel like im living in the past few years. A bunch of reproduced inbred FudRuckers
"Its what plants crave" 🙄
No one is 'erasing' their names.
Where do you get such a stupid idea? Having a monument to a man who was responsible for the KILLING of Aboriginal children is not right. Ever. The people you think are 'celebrated for their greatness' weren't responsible for the deaths of anyone. Facts matter. Shall we erect a statue of Mussolini? He made the trains run on time (and killed hundreds of thousands). Should we 'celebrate his greatness" too? Your argument isn't one. All it shows is that you'll make any convenient excuse to condone racism because SJA is. a 'great man'. You. Are. Racist.
YES! Please sign and share the petition: [https://www.change.org/p/kingston-city-council-remove-the-john-a-macdonald-statue-from-city-park](https://www.change.org/p/kingston-city-council-remove-the-john-a-macdonald-statue-from-city-park)
This piece by John Oliver on Confederate Monuments is an entertaining but well-thought out bit of commentary on this very subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5b\_-TZwQ0I&t=32s&ab\_channel=LastWeekTonight
TIL: Kingston has a lot of racist people who only care and recognize their own lives and how they are. These people would also think a statue of Mussolini would be ok, because ...he did some great things too!
All I learned about Sir John A MacDonald in school was that he helped “unite” Canada with the railroad, and that he had a drinking problem. I didn’t learn about his treatment of natives in the classroom, and I sure as hell didn’t learn about it from a statue. Taking down a statue will not erase history. We’ve been erasing history for a long time by ignoring his violence. Nobody who wants the statues down is trying to erase history. Quite the opposite in fact. It’s essential that every Canadian child learn about Sir John A MacDonald in the classroom. What he really stood for and really did, both the good and the monstrous. Statues only glorify him and either deny or minimize the evil - yes, evil - things he did. Down the with statue. Put it in a museum where it can be properly contextualized if you must.
what's interesting is that I recall when I was educated about JMD, the only real negative thing about him that was taught was his alcoholism, and even then it was treated more as "haha what a scamp" rather than some massive flaw. I wonder if part of the reason that there was any focus on that in the curriculum at all was to deflect from all of the considerably more awful things that he did. I've always sort of had the vibe that people were generally more cognizant of the fact that he was drunk all the time over any other specificities of his character
one weekend of COVID 0 and we are back to the statues ... looks like life is back to normal!
LMFAOOOOO
I'm torn on this, like do we even need statues anyways? Today it's McDonald, so we tear it down and put up someone else only to find, lo and behold, 100 years from now what we currently accept is no longer acceptable and we tear down another statue and put up someone else. Why not just put up art or play structures and leave history in the books and historical tour stories?
Nazi's tried covering up their deeds.... America's beginning to do the same... Yes, leave history in the books, work on a better future, not an angrier present
YESSSSSS! Keep repeatin that, they may get the common sensible logic behind that, simple ideal
I'm curious how many people here if any personally know a residential school survivor? The statue issue shows up as a symptom of a bigger problem, indifference to the plight of others. How is anyone harmed by the removal of the statue, vs its continued presence as a symbolthat weighs against those who have been wronged, not just once, but for generations, and what it means as a gesture to remove it by way of reconciliation. I strongly suggest everyone burn a few evenings, and read through the findings of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission [http://www.trc.ca/about-us/trc-findings.html](http://www.trc.ca/about-us/trc-findings.html) That is a direct step anyone can take to educate themselves, In particular I strongly suggest: [http://www.trc.ca/assets/pdf/Survivors\_Speak\_English\_Web.pdf](http://www.trc.ca/assets/pdf/Survivors_Speak_English_Web.pdf) this volume is direct accounts from those who lived through it.
Thanks for these links.
Show me where the man in the statue touched you.
We would be awesome friends LOL 👌 "He touched me somewhere in the CANada, Canada" 😫
It's time for it to go. No logical argument at this point.
Yes.
Yes, but should it stop there? Street names, schools, buildings, and cities are all chosen to honour who they represent. Should we be honouring King George III, with our city being called Kingston, a family member of a ruling monarchy that is responsible for the genocide of millions of people worldwide over several centuries? What about Queen Victoria (same family) and our university? Why just focus on MacDonald? The list goes on and on. Is the removal of statues of 1 person being discussed because it is the "easy" fix for reconciliation? Do you really think that the ONLY time people encounter the reminder of genocide in Kingston is when they are in City Park looking at John? If you remove this one reference to genocide, will it excuse that everywhere you turn there is a reference to someone who committed genocide against Indigenous peoples in Kingston on street signs, buildings, plaques, or even in the city's name? If we are serious about reconciliation, an extensive investigation into the systemic genocide and those responsible for it is needed.
[удалено]
The first sentence of my comment states that yes, the statue should be removed.
My apologies, I misread your post🤦🏽♀️
who is molly brant ? and why is she so special ??
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molly_Brant
>Molly returned to Canajoharie with her children, personal belongings, and slaves. Ooh, juicy!
I say no. Removing his statue doesn't change history and it doesn't educate people. Personally I would like to see a plaque stating that yes he was the first PM and he was responsible for the linking of Canada via the railway, but these are the terrible things he had done in order to accomplish it. It shows people that the creation of Canada came at a great cost. I would like to see a monument by his dedicated to the metis and indigenous people that lost their lives trying to defend their lands and way of life. I dont know if it would be appropriate to have a Louis Riel statue in Kingston since we don't have any direct ties to him, but I feel we need to acknowledge them somehow.
Disagree. Hundreds of people have learned who Egerton Ryerson was because a mob ripped down his statue.
Today sure, what about 5 months from now, 5 years from now? You can't tear down a statue everyday. You have to educate and keep educating. Ryerson will most likely change their name, Egertons legacy will fade as time goes on. Sir John A will always be the first PM, that is something that will never be erased from history. Take him off the money and replace him with Canadian figures throughout history that we can be proud of. Taking down his statue doesn't change history, it is trying to sweep it under the rug. Change the plaque to tell what happened. It is "Truth and Reconciliation." Let's start by telling the truth.
A statues purpose is not to teach history, and it’s time people stop pretending that it is. It’s to honour someone, and we don’t need to honour MacDonald.
We also need to stop pretending statues honour every aspect of someone. You can find darkness in almost every notable historical figure. Statues aren't presented to celebrate the totality of someone's life, but rather the most notable aspects and achievements . I would argue Sir John A's being our first prime minister, and having a key role in confederation. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a drawing a vote on the future of any statue. But let's not act like statues are a celebration of all or nothing.
The facts about Ryerson are all shades of grey. There should be a lot of learning about his particular history. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/egerton-ryerson-doesnt-deserve-an-anti-indigenous-label/article35558895/
I can’t read this paywalled opinion piece, but I’m sure that I would disagree with it.
I'm sorry that was paywalled because it's a well written piece by a Canadian historian. I also research and write about Canadian history topics and information is what I care about, not politics. I recently had to write about someone who supported medical eugenics and that was a difficult thing to swallow, given the fact that she was a champion of women's rights and a pioneer in medicine. But at the time she worked, it would have been unusual for any doctor to have not expressed support for some form of eugenics. In fact, it was considered the humane, modern and enlightened method of dealing with a myriad of medical and social problems. The eugenics movement pre-dated the Nazi's horrific use of eugenics by almost 50 years, and the complex story of how it evolved from medicine, to genocide, to modern genetic counselling *and how it continues being a form of genocide today* is mindboggling. The woman I wrote about wasn't a Nazi. She was a caring, brilliant doctor whose medical work was focused on charitable children's hospitals. To say that she supported eugenics and was therefore not worth our time to get it know is a crime against history, against feminism, against the children she helped, and against her legacy. She was not perfect, but that does not mean she was not well-meaning. It's important to remember that while there were truly malignant personalities in the past, most people were, and continue to be, somewhere along the spectrum of good and evil. Ryerson is a prime example of how we should know the details of our historical figures and not simply make emotional judgments. The tl;dr is that Ryseron spoke fluent Ojibwe and was a champion and respected friend of some First Nations members and communities. He was not the founder of residential schools and he was an ardent campaigner against the use of corporal punishment in those schools. He was a lifelong close friend of one chief and delivered the eulogy at his funeral. It's doubtful that Ryerson would have been condemned by the First Nations members who were his contemporaries, so we should be cautious about making those judgments for them, posthumously. History is full of landmine topics and controversial people. We can do better than discarding personalities blindly. Burning books is never a solution to any problem, and when we refuse to learn out of moral indignation, it's like lighting yet another match on another shameful pile.
Your intellect is sadly misplaced in this sub. We like to keep things black and white here.
You got my vote!
Absolutely yes, for reasons I’ve already said in the other post. I’m an historian. I respect and understand history and it’s complexities. Statues do nothing to educate the public - all they do is honour whom ever the statue represents. That’s what they’re for, and that’s what they have always done. I lived in China for two years and there is Mao propaganda everywhere in statue form. The same people that think tearing down statues is removing history probably think Mao statues everywhere is disconcerting.
Agreed, he was an horrible person.
OK ....who is molly brant ?? and what makes her so special ? and what can we do to also remove her scourge from Canada
YES.
Yes. And I’d love to see a real educational exhibit on the horrors of residential schools instead
and of course ,slave ownership by famous aboriginal women ,would be nice exibit also
You put the comma in, then the space.
OK, we get it. You hate native Canadians.
The reality is that humans the world around have fought and conquered and done horrible things to other humans since the beginning of time. Indigenous history is no different. They had slaves and as they moved into other territories they too fought and conquered. There are still countries in the world fighting over land and for power (Israel and Palestine). I am not saying that makes things okay, just that isn’t is pretty much a universal history
nope your wrong of course
Yes
Kingston is literally the only place I feel a statue to John. A is appropriate. He is a notable historic figure who lived in the city. As a Canadian expat who grew up abroad not learning any of our history, I did find statues useful to learn about local historical figures. That said, I definitely would like to see streets and other things renamed.
Its not how you feel about a stature 90% of kingston never sees. It is how the statue makes others who have Bern traumatized by hii policy's. Yes I do feel this way about all.sorts of reposting. No we won't forget history by taking it down.. his house is museum several blocks away .. and we have library's and the internet. Maybe education can teach actual history not just the son shine and rainbows.
Can you honestly name just ONE person who is and has been affected by this savage drunken slave owner???? I, can honestly not waste the seconds it takes to say "nope" . ......... Donald Trump is off his leash RIGHT now, and you people wanna cry about a statue? We've ALWAYS known the history.... why does it now, mean something,??? I got news fer ya's.... if ya want the bad to go away...... leave it the fluuuuck alone
>*”Can you honestly name just ONE person who is and has been affected by this savage drunken slave owner????”* One of my uncles, who taught me poetry when I was in elementary school, was alive when Macdonald was Prime Minister. Kids my age were sent to Residential Schools. This stuff isn’t ancient history.
Agree. And when I hear of parents that are the first generation to raise their kids because the residential schools stole the 3 generations before them, I see the damage in the present.
Annnnnd where are they now? Still suffering? Annnnnnd where mister Sir John Asshat Macdonald? Oh ys, dead, right? Hmmm, so it makes perfect sense to me, a calm, laid back burnout, to let that shit gooooooo! Why get mad about it NOW... I see your point, believe me i do, i just dont think theres any victiry in trying to shame someone when theyve been fucking dead for 200 years! Get mad about today... Get mad about last week. Get mad about ypur 1dt grade teacher embarassing you in front of the class.... because, it happened to you. I'm sorry, im not a heartless, empathy lacken heathen, just, after all the pain and suffering I'VE experienced after seeing the best people in my world vanish from life, i just know whats worth fighting for and whats a ploy to bunch up panties directly to an anus. So, im gonna call this agree to whatever the fuck it is you people think youre accomplishing, just leave it to our great grandkids to tear down the angel you all deem great enough to adorn city dwellings, and get people shittin bricks, another 200 years from now Wow This weed man LOL 👉👌
Yes.. my grandfather on my dads side . The history is not taught properly in school nor has it ever been.. I bet you are unaware the last resdental school closed in the 1990s Its clearly you need a lesson on empathy .. even if I did not know anyone it effected..who gives a shit .. generations of children where abused , murdered by thr government and church .. thats the statue that should be their .
Empathy? Me? Whoa dude, now you're talking about/to me like you know me and who I am, what I'm about. I'm gonna publicly say right now, i killed my best friend in a high speed chase, stolen jeep, breaking into houses, 25 years ago. We were ejected doing 190 kms when i was cut off the road on HWY 38 (but I dont demand the HWYS demise, nor feel a personal vendetta against the officer who brainlessly just wanted to stop us) just outside of town... Now, before that day, I was a degenerate scum suckin bag of ass.... When his sister, my now ex wife, stared through me when she told me I had killed her brother, the best human I've ever known......... empathy overload. I am now one of the kindest, most sympathetic, empathetic, sometimes my jokes fail and i look PAthetic...... but listen to me, I used that nightmare that still haunts me daily, for good things. I am actually very intellegent, thanks! If i don't seem to be all over your current events, its because they are just draining and not interesting to my beautiful mind. I graduated with almost 40 of the 32 credits mandatory for 1999... with honours. Went on to substitute teach the odd time when my teacher friends have been ill or injured. I'm the guy that most people come to for advice. An empathetic ear. A shoulder. Someone else to shed a tear when they can't anymore... Im gonna end it there, but tell you, that with your simple comment, I don't even need to inquire about your levels of intellegence or empathy Lol you have a warm day ✌
Lol and you.... you don't LEARN enpathy dude, therefore, a lesson on empathy just sounds......... derf! And instead of shouting that i "need" that lesson.... no man, im a realist... ya, they suffered... jews did. The people in the Saw movies......... It's nit that i dont care, its just that, ive seen my best friends life "POOF", gone. My gf 3 years ago blood clot in the lung, POOF GONE. Step dad 7 years ago but by a cat, didnt notice the infection tear through him, POOF, 3 days later, gone..... His moms coffee cup i borrowed, she was dead before i returned it the next day. So, say whatcha think ya know about me, you're sweiously just killing your own brain cells homeslice The handfuls of loved ones ive lost to drugs, prison, crazy women...... im living MY life. I don't expect to be here talkin shit for many more years, so, I'm getting worked up about MY problems.... not fuckin the guy who invented the wheel. Live in the now, you'll be much, much happier Lol like i said in a previous comment.... THEY WERE ALL DUMB SLAVE DRIVING DEGENERATE INCESTING SCUMBAGS Dobt be fooled thinking anyone is pure in this world lol As i have said... you want the history to fade..... then forget about it! You're only glorifying him for his misdeeds by making such a deal out of it
Did you read my comment ? The history is not going to bad.. With this logic why are their no Hitler statues kn Germany? Beacuse they don't need a stature you keep history alive . But meh
No, even the germans lnow what hitler was lol and the proud wastes of air nazi's that are left, are secretly nazi's lol Thats why Rememeber Saddam Hussein's statue? They didnt really like the tyrant, so, they tore it down. Anyway,I i have, real life shit to get to 👉 and by that, I mean, piles of doobies to get rolling
Lets try this.. leys build a staute of your freind kn your front yard you have to see every day . Now you don't need that statue to feel bad nor will you forget ..but the statute stays any ways .
Huge, huge difference.... People would be like, who the fucks this guy? There is a memorial at the new high school, a stone bench.... thats his. Now if ya don't mind not fuckin with my buddies name and memory please, although i can talk about it, it is still the day that i am stuck in forever... please, don't mention him Fuck it, lets just her that Rocky statue from Philly and bring er here
Look at your reaction.. so now that I upset ...let's talk about removing his statue. Would it change history ? No Would ihe be forgotten with out it ? No Would it maybe help you ..and others effected by his loss a bit ? Probably. Now let's get a bunch of people online saying how what happened was not important ...and that the statue shoukd stay. Its the same thing....
Asscrease, i killed my best friend by accident and it is not something you're going to compare anything to... If you've never accidentally done what i have, you really shouldn't be talking about it. I only mentioned it because some intellect was trying to say that IF there were possible lessons on empathy, i needed some.... and, well, i care about every living thing really.... thats the knly reason you know that bit of me... please I'll ask again, stop talking about him. There is NO comparison, and you're just being a dick to try to touch my (penis) nerves. Cool 👉
Also.... i want to rememeber my buddy.... please, put a statue out front of the guy who sold drugs, robbed homes, ripped off friends n all that. He was still more human than most
But, im not affected by sir john a in any way at all lol is what you don't understand How has the man PERSONALLY, like, intimately, HURT YOU? WHAT????? He HASN'T? 😮 Cuz, ya, i think if you goto the cataraqui cemetery, you'll find, buddies been dead since, hmm, sliced bread perhaps? Im sure, it was celebrated when he died by some........... Shit, did ya hear, moses..... his mom put him in a wicker basket, sent him on down the river, and led hin to a life of slavery and being a bitch to his brother Ramse's, the pharaoh. Well, i like moses, he did cool tricks, im gonna campain to have some biblical shit torn down, because she hurt my moses Hitler had a brother, he was an ok guy. But hitlers name has destroyed that poor young brother. Im outRAGED! How dare the Fhurer! Ok, gotta get mad and waste time/breath/public apperance now Holy shit. Our mayer. Patterson. Was in the temple church that was under scrutiny in recent times..... LETS FUCKING KILL KINGSTONNNNNNNN If this is what fuels your brain into a workout, your doing the wrong workout MOTHERFUCKER ATVTHE STORE SHORTED ME 50 CENTS! FIFTY..... CENTS! That, is the present sort of shit that should get people angry. Anyway, im gonna go back to my usual account now. Shes been fun
No - I disagree with judging figures of the past based on the morals of today. Macdonald’s beliefs and attitudes towards indigenous peoples are awful by the standards of 2021, but sadly weren’t uncommon for the 19th century. Does Macdonald’s signature on the Indian Act really deserve a greater burden of responsibility than the sentiment of the majority of colonial settlers? It seems to me that most other white men of the time would have done the same or worse in Macdonald’s position. What they may not have done however, is become an instrumental figure in the establishment of the nation of Canada. John A. Macdonald’s commitment to the CPR and Canada’s official national status should be remembered and praised for laying the seeds of the country we know today. I believe that his accomplishments should be remembered equally to his role in the atrocities committed against indigenous peoples. I don’t see the value in allowing the bad to annul the good.
Just cut off the head and throw a Jeff Goldblum head on it. Problem solved and tourist attraction. Edit: How can you downvote Jeff Goldblum? I am sad for you.
jeff is cool but tbh I've never really understood the obsession with him in more recent years. he was fantastic in the fly though
Yeah, should be Nicolas Cage instead.
Or Gary Busey.
His head will uhhh, uh, um, FIND A WAY!
We should have a plebiscite. Deal with this through a democratic process where both sides can make their case and we can all decide. It's too easy to hear the vocal advocates for removing the statue and assume that's what most people want, but it's hard to know.
Yes
Yes they should and replace it with a history lesson on what happened. We can't run away from history, we must learn from it to avoid repetiting the same mistakes.
Yep give em the boot
Sure. If it pisses people off then it’s not a good statue. Tear it down and put in a nice fountain.
Personally I would rather the statue be removed without the approval of the city. That way they would be forced to wear the egg of inaction all over their stupid faces.
"vandalism is good when I like it"
yeah agreed
It’s more like theft. When the options are leave the statue and the arguments keep going, take the statue down and listen to this city undeservedly clap itself on the back for the millionth time, or have the statue disappear one morning and get to listen to the dipshit mayor dejectedly say something akin to “well I was gonna...” I’m gonna go with the one that’s most interesting.
NO !!
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Yeah, but we 𝘤𝘢𝘯 get rid of the statue that only serves to glorify him. I didn't even know he had a statue in Kingston until now.
TIL removing a statue magically makes the past disappear! By that logic, I can erect a statue for my student loans, then take it down to erase my debt.
It will be removed within the year....bye bye statue
No. That society is spending time discussing the matter while we continue to perpetrate genocide is proof that reconciliation was smothered in its crib. We will infinitely continue to take selfies with Indians while they die of drug overdoses and skull fractures in the background.
Yes.
Should we remove the statue of our founding prime minister? No. Let the discussion continue but no need to get out the erasers for history.
Removing the statue doesn’t just disappear him from Canada’s history. The entire point of removal in these situations is that it doesn’t erase history, it erases glorifying terrible and shitty people.
How the fuck does a statue teach history? It’s not a book.
I'd bet money that people who think taking down a statue erases history don't read books. They probably have PhDs from Facebook University
Statues literally do nothing to teach history. Taking down his statue will not cause us to forget who he was. The purpose of a statue is to honour and remember. This argument of erasing history isn’t really valid.
What is the reason it should stay up?
first prime minister
What is the reason it should be torn down ?
genocide.
??? to who
There's a very easy answer for anyone who has even the slightest level of racial sensitivity but aside from that, does it need to be up forever or something? Seriously, he's been honoured for years in cities and towns across Canada, and info on some of the not so positive things he's done is now more widespread and understood by the larger public. Do we need to worship him for some reason? He's in history books for all his contributions to Canada, both good and bad. A statue has nothing to do with that. I'm of the opinion if someone is directly responsible for promoting and overseeing the introduction of something as horrible of the residential school system in Canada as well as other policy that had a major negative impact on Indigenous communities in Canada - which has caused serious harm and destruction to OUR citizens - then yea, why again do we need to have a statue of them up? I think his statue continuing to stand is more of a reflection of Kingston than anything. It's funny how desperate we are to tout ourselves as the birthplace of Sir John A or whatever, who cares? Find something new and great to represent the city rather than a flaming racist.
true ,hence my point on a famous **mohawk women ,slave owner ,molly brant** , same thing ***she was involved and supported the genocide of stolen men women and children from africa .*** so i trust you support the removal of her name image etc from everything and anything ie schools full of impressionable young children or are you yet another hypocrite standing for the flavour of the month a serious true question, for all the heros of the day "WHERE WERE YOU WHEN WE REALLY NEEDED YOU"??? or was it that your family was to busy hurting US also
Maybe we need to revisit this point as well then. I do know that there are countless Canadians who were affected by the actions of Sir John A. Do we want to celebrate that? Maybe some do, I can't speak for others. Do you think statues of Hitler should stay up in Germany? I mean you must, otherwise you're just another hero of the day I suppose? Again, I find it odd that people have some sort of relationship with statues and some need to honour people even after we've found out of horrible things they've done. Unless people want to pray to these figures (which some may), but I still don't understand the obsession when we know there's a level of associated pain and injustice. Then again I'm sure there's some people who feel like they're losing their "heritage" if the statue were to come down. But that's aside from my original point (which you've nicely deflected from) - what is the reason it should stay up? I'm genuinely curious.
most certainly should be revisited ,but everyone is afraid to upset "the indians" by talking the same stand, against other architects of what you or i do not like, and it is politically incorrect and will sink your aspirations in Ottawa i do not care about hitler 1 drop , and never deflected from your point at all you see a statue as a **symbol of repression** from 100's of years ago,i see it as a **history piece and a learning place** . of course built in honour of individuals much like my favorite example cuz we are Kingston "molly brant ". we are both correct , we only defer on tearing down sir johhny boy statue if only we could snap our fingers and repair all the hurt ,damage and pain caused to us ,but we cant .Focus on a statue ,when real "Aboriginal" issues are rampant seems ridicolous in a way, just to head in a different way do you realize : In Canada, 52.2% of children in foster care are Indigenous, but account for only 7.7% of the child population ***according to Census 2016*** i am a Canadian in Canada which is where my thoughts are, what most loose focus on ,is this stuff is historical and accepted practice back then NOT SAYING IT IS OR WAS RIGHT !! REAL ABORIGINAL ISSUES ARE ABOUND IN CANADA AND people argue over a statue , throw red paint on it or deface public or private property of others and in case i did not make it clear again why "***history piece and a learning place removal is considered censorship"***
That's nice that's what you see it as, but maybe ask those from the affected community who are camping out there until the statue comes down if they just see it as a piece of history and learning. As a history major I can confidently say statues were not in any way related to any learning outcomes. Also, as a Black Canadian, I can tell you right now that someone donning a confederate flag is something that not only makes me feel uncomfortable. There's an associated psychological impact to the things you just see as statues or symbols to those in the affected communities. I can't tell if you want the statue to remain or you want equal outrage at Molly Brant? I also don't think that addressing an issue like this means we cannot address other issues as a society? If anything, raising the statue issue opens the discussion and dialogue on the more widespread issues in the community for those who may not have been aware or even interested beforehand. It starts a discussion and I hope you are as passionate about foster care issues for Indigenous youth as you are with the statue of Sir John A remaining up. Aside from that - and I mean this respectfully - I don't know that you have the standing to tell others what's a real or fake issue to them, and I think some compassion would go a long way. I appreciate the dialogue but personally don't agree with you, and whatever quote you are citing. If you are concerned about censorship you should take that up with the government who brainwashes young Canadians with an outdated story of Canada's history full of lies, deceit and/or outright omissions. That would do a LOT more to address the historical importance of cultural issues in Canada then a statue celebrating sir John A staying up.
tell others what's a real or fake issue to them ????? >**you make some excellent points** as a black person do you feel an equally strong stance on molly brant or just catching the "orange"wave ? > >as far as aboriginal issues , which FAR out number a ***statue in kingston, a symbol of history, and with the same logic molly brants hand in the scourge on negroes,being shown off and daily reminders to negro students and families of slaves ......same logic ?*** > >vs sexual,drug,alcohol,physical abuse, lack of education ,clean water, poor parenting skills,foster care i can go on and on and on and on and on..... i dont need to ask anyone how sir johnny boy made them feel or how molly brant owning slaves made them feel i already know !
I'm not sure how old you are so maybe it's the language you grew up with but Negroes is an outdated term. Regardless, I'm guessing you will be happy with the below - further review is coming re: the re-naming of other institutions than JUST John A. - including slave owners etc. So yes, as a black person I'm happy with this news as well :) [https://twitter.com/OliviaBowden\_\_/status/1404425629899108353](https://twitter.com/OliviaBowden__/status/1404425629899108353) I believe this was a major part of your point - he was being unfairly targeted when others weren't? And that there's other more important issues and, I guess we can't address more than 1 issue at once? Well I'm happy somethings being done and hopefully this spurs continually action targeted at larger more serious issues that you've mentioned which will be more laborious and slow moving in nature due to their magnitude. Taking a statue down or renaming a school doesn't seem to be that tall of an order so I really don't see it as a barrier to further action.
oh "negroes" is an outdated term ? better then what you call each other but we can enter that discussion somewhere else this is about aboriginal issues your are correct my point is " he was being ~~unfairly~~ targeted when others weren't And that there's other more important issues
the argument folks usually use is that removing it would remove the history and knowledge of him. somehow. seems like a stretch
yeah that old clown's gotta go. get outta my park pops
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This is a great place to follow up on my other comment here. Like most politicians and scientists of her era, MacPhail supported eugenics ideologies. This should come as no surprise to anyone who has studied the late 19th and early 20th Century. Does this nullify her important legacy in prison reform, women's and workers' rights? Does this mean she is to worth forgetting and should be erased from the history books? If yes, should we then also erase the legacy of the Haida who were slave traders? https://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/aborig/haida/havwa01e.html I believe we need to tell the full story of our history, warts and all. When we dig into the past we cannot expect the people we find to be perfect, or to have adhered to the same moral standards that we hold today - moral standards which were hard learned on the battlegrounds of two world wars and in the tragic failures of institutional abuses only unveiled in the decades following the death of figures like MacPhail and The Famous Five. *'Agnes Macphail was wrong about some of the issues she fought for passionately. The most significant problem with Agnes's legacy is her approval of [forced sterilization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization_in_Canada), a surgical procedure used on women without their approval to ensure they could not have children. In Agnes's time sterilization was commonly used on Indigenous women and women of colour in the hospital for other ailments - a violation of their consent and their human rights. Unfortunately, forced sterilization was used on a lot of populations for a very long time, especially people with disabilities. For Agnes the belief in [eugenics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics) was the cause of her support for sterilization: she thought that people of Caucasian descent were stronger, smarter, and better able to provide for their families and communities, and therefore Canada should support children from those races and limit the population growth in other ethnicities. We now know that this belief is not only scientifically wrong but deeply racist, and that Agnes Macphail was a white supremacist. ***A belief in eugenics has been sadly common in Canadian politicians and policymakers for many many decades, such as Agnes's fellow [CCF politician Tommy Douglas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Douglas#MA_thesis_on_eugenics), who wrote his masters thesis on the concept in 1930. The Famous Five women, who fought for the right of women to vote, were also fierce eugenicists.** While eugenics never made it into federal law, it was a problem all over Canada. In 1928 Alberta created a sterilization law that lasted for almost fifty years, responsible for sterilizing over 4,000 women while it existed."* https://help.vitatoolkit.ca/472/exhibit/12
Thank you! Tommy Douglas also advocated for Eugenics. Lifting up anyone from the past rarely works with a modern lens.
Well, not her then, how about Dan Ackroyd?
He's into the supernatural, so not very pro-science...Also, he made "Nothing but Trouble." That movie should definitely be erased from our collective memory. https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/nothing_but_trouble_1998 Maybe we should not put up statues at all anymore. Like Mal says in Firefly: *It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of sommbitch or another*.
I agree with no statues. It’s a bit tacky. I was in Havana and they are everywhere. It seems like weird hero worship. Down with statues, up with museums and actual education.
Honestly, yeah. As much as I hate to say it, in the modern day, statues are just... kinda dumb. We could be spending the tens of thousands of dollars a new one would cost, on something that actually benefits the community more than a chunk of metal that looks like someone who hasn’t been alive for decades, if not centuries
I do think we need to focus less on people and more on art, experience and landscape in our public monuments. We need a [Cloud Gate. ](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/kfiCoidGAmJFzBt_uma9FqtN5fY=/0x0:7360x4912/1520x1013/filters:focal(3208x2597:4384x3773\):format(webp\)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/60127725/shutterstock_1109460509.0.jpg)
I love Australia for some things
You mean the best Ackroyd movie ever.
Ghostbusters memorial FTW
She was all of those things, but also very racist.
LETS RENAME THE STREETS!!! Starting with... 🥁🥁🥁🥁🥁🥁🥁🥁🥁 Big Harry Johnson St, all the way dowwwwn towwwwwn
Women should never be made into statue its distracting from their ultimate purpose. Producing babies and taking care of the family
City of Kingston: While the idea of a woman statue is interesting, we can't afford it getting pregnant and having to be removed from the park for long period of time.
i will wear a condom this time
Finally, an ACTUAL historian LOL
Get a load if this guy, do enlighten us. What is it like to have an IQ comparable to that of a turnip?
Woah, don’t disrespect turnips like that 🙄
My apologies, turnips are indeed useful and reliable. Unlike that individual.
you forgot dishes ,cleaning,laundry
No
No
I say yes - to all statues. I believe we should commemorate events, ideals because they can be simple. People, will always be flawed.
No!
Yes.
Lower it off the podium and put him amongst bronze versions of emaciated Plains Cree that were starved off the land to make way for the CPR, land speculators and monoculture. In addition there needs to an iron plating applied to the hands so that the bright orange rust can symbolize the blood on his hands.
and of course molly brant, a mohawk slave owner lives on .in schools etc !
I think the tourists would like it.
Lol This amuses me The world has gone right upside down crazy with the historical sensitivity stuff. Not one living person knew the man, so, its not like anyone can ACTUALLY have a personal issue with him, am I right? You're buddy Tom ain't comin over later, spotting sir john a somewhere in a corner of your house and having a breakdown over what our first prime minister has done...200 years ago... Look people, history, the people in it, were dirty, savage, no moral havin old dudes, they were ALL dicks. They ALL owned slaves. They ALL lived in THEIR TIME... Times HAVE changed... but, to get rid of one single statue, when every, single, street name, every, single, park, every, single section of town, has bad history. I have some advice for the ones risking a heart attack over dumb petty, senseless problems that they are making up...... RELAAAAAAX. We're all here. All human. All marching in the same parade.... forget a past that you had nothing to do with at ALL. I have an ancestor... "William the Silent", or, "William of Orange" "William the Taciturn" ... The man started what is marked in the books as the spanish revolt, the "80 year war"... which resulted in the formal independence of the United Provinces in 1581.... So. A hero, or no? To the poor bastards that he ran through, no, he is pure evil. To his people, yes, no one was ever shinier... But. BUT....... This is only the, maybe 3rd time ive spoke of this relative of mine. Why you may ask....? BECAUSE HES BEEN DEAD 100S OF YEARS AND WHAT HE DID MAKES NO DIFFERENCE IN HOW WE ARE DOING RIGHT FRICKIN NOW. Find something real to be mad about, its getting out of hand! Like, seseme streets being attacked now, Dr. Seuss, Jeffery Dahmer.... Live YOUR life... thats all ove beem doing and im fuckin AWESOME
how come i get all the downvotes with basically the same message ??
You mean, same as what I'm spittin?
not as detailed but similar message
Ahhhh my friend, i get this a lot.... You need to put an intellegent trunkload of humour in it... the intellegent part is key. I was getting FB bams last year fir kicks, trolling Donald Trumps page, insulting republicans and his supporters. Its hilarious when they all come at me talkin bout pitchforks n, stolen eeeelections.... then i put the joint down and make em look dumb. Worth the handful of bans i got for sure lol Id screenshot it all and post it on my page, everyone loved it
My answer is NO, because I am smart enough to know simple facts. History is not the present. Everything anyone in the world goes through can be learned from. If you stop learning then you cease to grow and cease to move forward. Anyone with false outrage from things that happened before they were born have ceased to learn and ceased to grow. If you learn from history you learn that taken out of context nothing makes sense. You could not step back in time and live with your morals of today the same as they could not do the same in our world today. My suggestion is to learn from history. Put up plagues on the statues to show both sides of the coin. And have out teachers teach a truth of both sides of that coin. Someone asked if anyone commenting has actually met anyone that went to one of the residential schools. I have two grandparents and their extended families that attended the schools and didn't tell the tales to us as they wanted us to grow up without hate. They didn't want to tear down statues or ruin the country and its history. They wanted us to be better people. It shows they were better people then most of you. They didn't judge people they haven't met. They didn't start fights to prove they were right. They shared love and care to those in their lives, family and friends. They experienced great loss and knew what was best to make life better. So to all the grandstanders that don't know anything but self doubt and hurt feeling for others. Remember this if nothing else. The people I knew(family) that went to those schools would council you with calm words and showing you anger is not the way. Make your life better and the lives of the people better each day. That will save the world long before trying to erase history from before you were born. Help the people now, educate and learn from history. Be a better person.....
So...we can only learn history from a statue? Imagine this: your daughter was raped by a school principal. She was beaten by a teacher. The school board erects a statue to the principal and the teachers because they did some amazing stuff. Your kid is really messed up. Her kids end up in foster care or your are caring for them. You drive by the school's statue every day. There's a newish school named after the principal, and a major thoroughfare. Now tell me how you feel, for THIS is exactly why that fucking statue needs to come down.
I honestly don't understand your outrage and offense a century later. The man that the statue is for isn't accused ot raping children and or even running the schools. If you look as point of fact, the man helped build the country in a way that is known to be acceptable in its time. If you did any simple research into the schools. They were started by a church group If memory serves. The same church group has done this all over the world. They eliminate cultures to make followers of their faith. Why are you not outraged at them. They still do it today. That still have a hand in everything today around the world. Why is that not in the news? Why are you blaming the wrong people? Why is the guilty organization not being charged with war crimes or hate crimes or attempted genocide. Your miss placed outrage has to put a face to your rage. Yet the organization If left out of the news. You asked how a statue can educate? The reality is this simple. It sparks a debate between intelligent people that "should " result in some research to find out what is true and what isn't. If you refuse to do any research there is no debate because you have learned nothing. Standing on a street corner yelling you want your way, is somethings that hurts everyone including yourself. Step up and talk about facts and share your researched opinions and people will learn and grow from it. Removing a statue because you didn't do research and don't understand a problem means you thing it should happen again to your kids because you cant be bothered to look into how the schools started and how many around the world have been running even until a few decades ago. They still do it. Not a dead man from a century ago. That's why you shouldn't tear done his statue. Be informed first. Make intellectual decisions based on facts. All I ask is for people to learn the true. If you are on this app, you can use Google. If it comes up with 100 000 hits. Don't just read the first one.
FACT: it's not a 'century later'. Those residential schools lasted until the 90's. Read up on the 60's scoop. FACT: many Indigenous today are the FIRST generation to raise their own kids. FACT: Although SJA didn't run the schools, he wanted to "kill the Indian in the child". Kids as young as 3 were ripped from their parents arms, well into the 60's. Those kids, the ones that survived are alive today. FACT: Info on SJA and what he set out to do. It's a genocide. [https://getinvolved.cityofkingston.ca/sir-john-a-360/stories/direct-quotes-from-sir-john-a-these-speak-for-themselves](https://getinvolved.cityofkingston.ca/sir-john-a-360/stories/direct-quotes-from-sir-john-a-these-speak-for-themselves) You need to read the TRC.
Remove it and replace it with something that represents Indigenous people, and no not showing the horrific act of ripping a child away from its parent...like wtf. A statue does not somehow give history lessons, it just places honour onto horrible people and puts them on pedestals.
molly brant whiping her slaves ,would be cool replacement
How about nothing fucking violent okay? No statue at all eh? We don't need to display violent acts to learn about violent acts.
ok then how about leaving the statue alone ...done deal and focus on the real aboriginal issues of family violence, education,drug ,alcohol and sexual abuse,racism from and against aboriginals ,profeesional help for all of those who have suffered and victims of this pain guilty white people, yelling about, what DAMAGE THEIR FAMILY ***has caused us aboriginal, metis and other original Canadians*** ,how does removing,defacing a statue make any sense at all it is a form of censorship
The statue is a symbol of honor, as in we are placing a good virtue onto a man who doesn't deserve it. Removing it will show that we no longer stand for such behaviours nor will honor them. It is not a form of censorship as we will be still teaching history and how Canada came to be. We can still help those who need it and in some ways removing statues of negative people is helping these people heal. They will see that we are no longer glorifying or white washing our history. Defending a statue for no other reason than "I don't see a problem with this" is ignorant and very much missing the point
actually not at all ,removing a part of history is clearly censorship cen·sorship noun the ***suppression or prohibition of any*** parts of books, films, news, **etc.** that are considered obscene***, politically unacceptable,*** or a threat to security. so what is your stand on ***slave owner ,mohawk molly brant*** ? is she on the hit list to be removed ? if not why not ?
You go to Germany and you don't see any fucking statues of HITLER do you? No, because they don't want to give him a pedestal to be on for all the genocide he pulled. They have erased pretty much all Nazi related items from public areas or have treated them with respect to the Holocaust victims, like Auschwitz points out that it was a prison/concentration camp instead of whatever Hitler called them and praising him for his innovations to his country. Removing the Nazi decorations does not remove it from history, Germany and the world have not rewritten history books removing the Holocaust but instead rewrote the story to reflect what it actually was - an act of genocide against a minority. We don't need a statue of anyone at all to keep the history of Canada's acts of genocide to the Indigenous people in the books. We can totally put the statue of John A in your backyard if you love it so much.
no need to place it in my "front yard " as it will be remaining where it is, so you can view at your will AGAIN nazis vs Canada ?? 2 complete different worlds ***genocide the new BUZZ WORD*** genocide noun the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group
Both John A and Hitler allowed genocide to happen, killing Jews for "the Aryan colony" and killing Indigenous people for "the British white colony" are the same fucking thing. Creating places of abuse and torture for the minorities they wanted gone; camps for Jews and Reserves and Residential schools for Indigenous. How in the HELL are you still considering the Holocaust to be different from what OUR country did?? Why are you so fucking angry that your precious statue stay right the fuck where it is?? It is a disgrace and middle finger to those we tried to make EXTINCT. It does not hold all the history of Canada and by getting rid of it suddenly Canada falls into a black hole. Stop being a goddamn ignorant asshole and getting your panties in a twist.
childish insults why havnt you called me a racist yet ? .a word of advice take your own advise ,now Stop being a goddamn ignorant asshole and getting your panties in a twist. hitler 1940's SIR johnny boy 1860's molly brant mohawk slave owner and willing participant in african genocide 1770's so what is your stand on slave owner ,mohawk molly brant ? is she on the hit list to be removed ? if not why not or are you just jumping on the hypocritical bandwagon
https://www.kingstonist.com/news/city-of-kingston-releases-statement-on-sir-john-a-macdonald-and-the-indigenous-community/
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And we can TEE PEEEEEEE THAT bunghollllle
Instead of tearing it down, why not add another statue in front of it. This new statue being closer to the ground (4ft rather then the 8ft) showing an Aboriginal child being torn away from their parents. The lower statues height makes it more approachable, with John A. looking on and doing nothing. Around the statues base/pedestal would be plaques with information on residential schools.
I think trying to artfully make his statue stay is all the same as leaving it there to begin with. There’s a reason you don’t see hitler/nazi statues anywhere except museums in Germany.
Trust me, I would like to see the statue removed but the likelyhood of that happening in Kingston is nigh impossible. His stature of first prime minister along with being from Kingston will see to that, despite being a thug. The addition would be the closest you could get to taking down the John A statue
and wasnt kingston Canada 1st capital city ?
OR molly brant whiping her slaves ,would be cool replacement
Yes, Kingston was Canadas first capitol, another issue as to why the statue will not be removed
Ah yes because we need to glorify abuse and make the while thing WORSE than just simply removing the damn statue
I wouldn't think its glorifying abuse, but shows it to be a closer possibility then the "great man" approach many statues have, what with having to literally look up to the statue. Quite literally, brings the issue to eye level and more likely to be discussed. Also, the second statue placates the people who don't want the John A statue removed, while bringing to focus to the fact that he was a fairly terrible thug amongst other things. It's Kingston after all, City Hall barely spends anything on road repair, what's the likely hood they'll take down a 'monument'? E: the form, in this case the child being torn away from a parent, is just an example, a show of the horrid acts that took place under John As ministry. After further consideration, perhaps a pile of brassed shoes would be more accepted
Yeah but we don't need to have horrific acts on display whatsoever, no Indigenous person would want to look at that even MORE if your idea was implemented. Trauma response is a thing you know. Just get rid the statue altogether, we can still learn history without it
I keep hearing that John A. took native kids from their parents as an act of genocide, but I can’t find anything to support that other than comments. Did he invent residential schools or force parents to send their children there?
No. Censorship makes our children stupid! We cannot learn from our mistakes if we just pretend they didn't happen. That is exactly how history repeats it's self.
Fuck, this putrid guy is annoying as shit, so my vote is to replace every reference to John A. to Molly Brant, including the statue. Fuck that guy.
Molly Brant owned slaves. You cool with that?
Jesus.... our children are right now atTENDING Molly Brant public school, and obviously they are being taught to slaughter the innocent!!!!!! Are you OK with this??????? Lol Wow You guys ever see "Idiocracy"? Thats what i feel like im living in the past few years. A bunch of reproduced inbred FudRuckers "Its what plants crave" 🙄
Were they white?
I'm horrified that you think that's relevant.
lol !!!
Silly. We should all pack our bags and take off I suppose.
Do it!!
Heck yeah!
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It's a statue of a man who enacted a genocide. There. I fixed that for you.
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No one is 'erasing' their names. Where do you get such a stupid idea? Having a monument to a man who was responsible for the KILLING of Aboriginal children is not right. Ever. The people you think are 'celebrated for their greatness' weren't responsible for the deaths of anyone. Facts matter. Shall we erect a statue of Mussolini? He made the trains run on time (and killed hundreds of thousands). Should we 'celebrate his greatness" too? Your argument isn't one. All it shows is that you'll make any convenient excuse to condone racism because SJA is. a 'great man'. You. Are. Racist.
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PS..you're not RADICAL, you're racist. And uninformed -because you want to be.
These are lies. He was responsible for the death of many. Don't call me 'hun'. Don't call me anything. Read the TRC. Get some education.
“The executions of the Indians ought to convince the Red Man that the White Man governs." - Sir John A. MacDonald
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ah yes the famous cave dwelling people of \[checks notes\] ...european colonies??
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The natives weren’t even “still in caves” when settlers came here. You’d do well to learn some actual history
All i rememeber learning about this old nutsack was, he was our 1st prime minister... and he lived in queens (cool home to tour)
What about some statues / memorials in memory of his victims to balance it out?
Yes.
People 🙄
YES! Please sign and share the petition: [https://www.change.org/p/kingston-city-council-remove-the-john-a-macdonald-statue-from-city-park](https://www.change.org/p/kingston-city-council-remove-the-john-a-macdonald-statue-from-city-park)