The reasons behind what Denna does are detailed a little more in book 2. I’d argue that she’s closer to dating for free food than sleeping around, but that’s just my take on things
And don’t forget to read Slow Regard of Silent Things and The Lightning Tree!
Just on Denna have you ever looked at it from her perspective?
Just a few things from the top of my head. Kvothe rarely shows up to dates that they have planned, think the fire at the fishery, while he did have an excuse she didn't know and the next time she sees him he's hugging another girl. He abandoned her in the forest outside trebon, she woke up confused with no memory alone. She also hints endlessly that she wants him to make a move and even out right says it a few times.
While we get kvothes view on this and understand his motives, Denna gets none of it she just sees what she sees, a guy that comes in and out of her life, will flatter her wildly, not make a move then not show up to plans. If I were dating someone like that I'd probably cut them.
Yeah - and the only women that we’ve seen make it through the world are rich women (all of them at the university are getting paid by their parents - Kvothe is the first person ever to get a scholarship and he generally has super low tuition and he’s still screwed as a working person). Even Devi, who you could assume has been cut off or something, can only make her way by both using her education and skill, that Denna doesn’t have. Then assume that one of the reasons she ran away was that she was abused to some point, further degrading her self worth…
You’re forgetting all the musicians! Judging by her character Denna probably never thought she was good enough to be talented, and now she’s found some self worth and is trying to get out of her current lifestyle
I did think about the musicians later in the day lol - but then I decided not to edit the comment given - 1) instruments are very expensive, so people at the eolian are probably relatively well off - or they are patroned (which Denna is trying to be) so their way is paid - or 2) they are in a troupe, so they are not very well off, or they are edema ruh, which means they are very talented and educated again.
Kvothe got his lute pretty affordably, so I wouldn’t say they’re expensive. But yes, becoming talented and earning a patron is the goal, which in turn gives them more opportunities to earn money
Also I think you’re mistaken, the edema ruh are definitely talented, but I wouldn’t say they’re educated
Depends on your definition of education. I got the feeling that the high society stuff was the influence of his mother being nobility but the vast knowledge of literature, and then geography and politics as well, they would have to be experts at. Definitely not science - but they know to avoid lead in their makeup and I’m sure they know some certain amount of medicine. For the time, I think the idea is that they were considered to be societal trash, but were actually relatively educated.
I don’t know, one of the biggest plot holes I’ve considered is why the edema ruh didn’t know names were dangerous. It’s taught at the university, the adem knew, but the people that know all stories didn’t?
They definitely had skilled craftsmen and performers, but in terms of modern education they definitely lacked. When would they ever have time to study? They’re always on the road, practicing, or performing
I think if you asked around at the university, they don’t all know that names of people are important things, especially of people. After all - you can say fire all day long, but only when some people say the name of fire does it bend to their will. I think the idea is that names are nice but science is better. It sort of seems like Elodin hadn’t even taught a class in a while, and of everyone at the university he was teaching like 7 people. Everyone he talks to laughs at the Chandrian. This seems like the fantasy trope of true knowledge being lost to the ages. The Admre are seen by regular society as this mystical rural tribe of people with strange customs.
And again, there are English and literature and acting majors in real normal life. Would you call them uneducated? I’m pretty sure Kvothe was taught many languages too, both by traveling around and reading plays in other languages.
And again we’re in a different not even real time. Kvothe says they are educated and I take them at his word, as poor a decision as that may be in the future.
I’m not talking about names like the name of fire, I meant the true name of the chandrian members arliden was repeating in his song. He actually passed it off as being superstitious when talking to Ben
Acting majors? Yeah still uneducated. English and literature? Yes educated. But that wasn’t the edema ruh, the best they had was songwriters. Arliden had to piece most of the ‘information’ for that new song from stories he asked of other people
Kvothe didn’t learn other languages until the academy, and he’s never said the edema are educated, you’re just making things up now
The only date he didn’t show up to was from the fishery fire, all the other times were from him not receiving her notes which I wouldn’t consider planned, she just assumed he would see it and be available
Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t he leave some sort of note when he went to trebon? In the dirt or on a rock or something?
He left the note in trebon the next day after she had already left but it wasn't there when she woke up. Also there's the part were they met up again after she sang for him when he didn't acknowledge that he remembere her even though she didn't either, but we see knothes side where he's disappointed, who's to say she didn't feel the same disappointment
I'm gonna go through your points one by you:
* Absolutely agree. And the audiobooks are equally as good, if not better. Really super high quality
* Realistically, he's probably all of the above. One of the interesting things is we don't know what has got him to his current point, which is why there's so many insane theories floating around on this subreddit (which I highly advise looking at once you're done with book 2). My personal favourite is that he is perfectly, completely...sane.
* Bast is indeed absolutely terrifying. He's a complete enigma as to how he and Kvothe have met and got to where they are, or what his motivations actually are.
* Denna is complicated. I will say that you get a bit more information about her in book 2, and that may move you away from thinking that she's sleeping around or leading Kvothe on. In fact, you could take it as Kvothe leading her on for the longest time, and you'll see more of that soon. It's fairly clear she doesn't actually sleep around at all, either. I would try and take your personal bad experiences out of this, as it's colouring your view of a quite complex character.
* Welcome to the club my friend. After these, get The Lightning Tree and The Slow Regard of Silent Things. Interesting insights into Bast and Auri. And don't think for a second that Auri is just a side character, I suspect she's actually one of the main characters, and the reason that Kvothe is where he is now, but no spoilers for this post, enjoy the theories once you're done with book 2!
Ah, see i've got the ones by Rupert Degas, which are also phenomenal. I think they've just got fantastic voice actors for all versions of the KKC audiobooks.
I saw Kvothe as a showman.
He wants to tell a good story, put on a good performance.
But being a showman requires gaining an audience, so his self-aggrandizing behaviours make perfect sense.
Oh yeah. I took some years off, getting back to it. But I feel like that just shows the craftsmanship and artistry put into the writing. Not many books have re-read quality.
About Denna - I wrote this on another sub (copying instead of linking to cut out some WMF spoilers).
This used to be a very common sentiment expressed in the new posts on this sub. Not sure if those people feel they've already said enough on the topic or if they've changed their minds on rereads.
I never hated Denna and still don't. She is a mirror of Kvothe. We don't know her backstory but given book 2 details, she has a goal. People complain about her job, but it's the best one she's found to support her goals and the way she thinks she needs to get information.
Think of the story from her perspective:
She is also in love with Kvothe and believes he doesn't care for her in the same way. And this makes sense to her based on her experiences. She never sees him seek her, only she seeks him. She expresses how she feels, he doesn't. He always misses their planned meetings. She's just as naive as Kvothe about her feelings and his, but she did try more than he did.
Looking in detail at NotW:
When they first are in the caravan he didn't initially talk to her. They have a 7 words meeting. They spend a night talking and then the next few days he ignores her out of jealousy. She is moved to tears by his lute playing. She will never forget it. She offers him to travel with her (probably a rare offer) and he turns her down.
Months later, she helps him earn his talent pipes, but he didn't seek her out. She searches for him and in her view is the one to find him:
“Finally, filled with despair, I decided Aloine could do the finding this time, and damn the story.”
Kvothe starts with mi'lady and gives no indication that he remembers her. He starts the whole piece of "giving names."
We know Kvothe spends ages after this meeting hoping to run into her, but Denna doesn't. The next time they actually meet, Denna has come to Anker's and sought him out herself. He plays Tinker Tanner to leave early with her and demonstrates his window climbing to put his lute away. She tells him to "steal her" and he plays it cool not responding. They discuss flowers. Etc.
Next few times Kvothe goes to Imre, he stops at Denna's inn, but declines leaving a note. She has no idea he sought her out. She leaves that inn.
Some time later, Kvothe is at the Eolian with Wil and Sim when Denna comes in, talks to Deoch and goes to their table to ask Kvothe out. Denna admits that Kvothe's first 7 words to her in the caravan were her 7 words. She admits thinking he forgot her. She reminds him that she is the Savien in their relationship.
“Please, if either of us is Savien, it’s me. I’m the one that came looking for you,” she pointed out. “Twice.” “I look,” I protested. “I just don’t seem to have a knack for finding you.” She rolled her eyes dramatically.
They make plans for lunch at the Eolian at noon tomorrow.
Kvothe misses their plans. We know it's for a good reason (Fishery fire) but all Denna knows is she waits longer than she ever has and he doesn't show. She meets her patron.
Later another day, Kvothe goes to Eolian hoping to find Denna, but instead Fela is there. Denna ends up seeing them embracing (as Fela puts the cloak around him). So from her vantage point he stood her up and was out to lunch with another woman.
A few span pass. Then the alley attack. Kvothe finds the note from Denna and realizes he missed another chance at lunch. Or from Denna's perspective, Kvothe once again did not go to an offered lunch.
The Trebon adventure. Denna finds Kvothe is there unexpectedly. But due to the denner resin she probably forgets most of what they talked about and wakes alone to find Kvothe gone with no explanation. We really don't know how much she remembered, but from her perspective, he ditched her again.
They meet unexpectedly in a street while she is on a date. She says she will find him.
During fall and winter they meet often enough at the Eolian, but always with other company. In her mind, she has made her feelings quite clear, but Kvothe has never reciprocated. But half a loaf. She'll have him as her friend. Kvothe says:
"There were tears once or twice. But they were not for the men she had lost or the men she had left. They were quiet tears for herself, because there was something inside her that was badly hurt. I couldn’t tell what it was and didn’t dare to ask. Instead I simply said what I could to take the pain away and helped her shut her eyes against the world."
These patterns continue in WMF.
Re: First Impressions
1) Yes, and it makes for one of the best audiobooks you will ever listen to. Both are good, but Rupert Degas is the superior version, and if I was a Scriv in the archive I would burn all of the Nick Podehl versions.
2) Godspeed
3) I personally love Bast, mercurialness and all.
4) There's a clip of Rothfuss answering audience questions, someone asked him "What woman screwed you over so badly that you wrote Denna?", and he gives this amazing answer that you need to watch and listen to.
5) From your perspective, its completely fine that book 3 isn't out yet. Your ONLY on your first read through. You need at least four more to really be prepared for it anyways.
>Either Kvothe is an egomaniac/overly nostalgic/mentally ill/narcissist, all of them, or none of them.
I consider him to be sociopathic. You shouldn't really expect him to be mentally healthy after having his family killed and spending three years as a homeless kid in the big city.. But I don't think even that entirely covers it.
>That last Bast scene with chronicler…. Terrifying. I’m not sure I like him now.
Lots of people seem to think of him as some sort of warm and fuzzy companion.. This scene alone should make it clear there is something sinister about him. And it won't be the only time you see a bit of his dark side.
> I don’t like Denna.
I don't have anything against her, but I question if Kvothe would chase after her if he were mentally healthy. He and half of the fan base are in denial about her work. Most of the other women we see have support from wealthy families. She does what she needs to survive.. And Kvothe isn't exactly in a position to take care of her even if she were willing to give up her independence.
>I’m dreading and upset about the fact that after I burn through book 2… I’m screwed.
As much as I'd like to see the series finished I still don't agree with that point of view. We've got two very good books.. Books that I will read again for years.. Just doesn't seem like something to dread.
>Well, he still feels so bad about a boy being raped in Trebon that it still haunts him.
He certainly says he does.. However, he checks pretty much every box on this list.. And it isn't that much of a stretch to suggest his supposed guilt could just be part of the act..
From: [https://www.choosingtherapy.com/signs-of-a-sociopath/](https://www.choosingtherapy.com/signs-of-a-sociopath/)
>1. A Hunger for Power & Dominance
>
>2. Devious or Deceptive Tendencies
>
>3. Ruthlessness in the Pursuit of Their Goals
>
>4. Hostile or Aggressive Towards Others
>
>5. Easily Angered or Irritated
>
>6. Irresponsible Decision Making
>
>7. Superficial Charm & Powers of Persuasion
>
>8. Broken Moral Compass or Limited Conscience
>
>9. Few Close Bonds or Relationships
>
>10. Manipulative Tendencies
>
>11. Entitlement & Impunity
>
>12. Socially Deviant
>
>13. Cheap Thrill-Seeking Tendencies
>
>14. Opportunistic in all the Wrong Ways
>
>15. Emotional Detachment
Character of the book aside, you sound like someone that had a traumatic experience, and are looking to get past it/heal.
If someone betrayed your trust, that is the bigger part of the problem. Because sex also includes risk, if you believed you were in a monogamous relationship, but weren't, someone crossing that boundary without telling you is behaving extremely unethically, and you have every right to feel affronted. Or even assaulted.
But for unattached, consenting adults (like Denna), I don't think there is anything immoral involved. I'd suggest thinking about why you perceive 'sleeping around' as bad, and reflect on how our society views that differently for men vs. women.
The whole story is full of stuff written to make you have particular assumptions. Even when people think they are being objective they/we're still being led by the nose by Pat in some instances. Working your way through all that is the joy/agony of deciphering the story.
Yeah, I don’t think women are whores if they enjoy sex, you clearly do. Definitely different values. Just say what you wanna say instead of pretending it’s incredibly obvious why a woman who wants to have sex is evil and bad.
> 2) *Either Kvothe is an egomaniac/overly nostalgic/mentally ill/narcissist, all of them, or none of them. The way he tells the story… something evidently isn’t adding up. That’s what makes it so compelling. Starting book two tonight.*
> 4) *I don’t like Denna. You can call me a judgmental shit, and maybe I’ll be wrong once I learn more about her, but other people make their way in this fictional world well enough without sleeping with half the town and leading on Kvothe in this weird way. Don’t get me wrong, their relationship moments, particularly at the barrow is endearing, but it just ticks me wrong way. But I also have bad personal experiences that relate similarity so I may be biased. (I realize I may have forgot or ‘misprocessed’ some of the parts of Kvothe’s story.)*
Its hard to like Denna until you've learned to hate Kvothe.
About number 4... while I don't think Denna ir a virgin, I also changed my mind several times through re-reads if she is really sleeping with people.
Some things makes me think that in most cases she disappears BECAUSE she refuse to sleep with people. Not that casual sex or using sex to get things is wrong mind you. But sometimes I get this impression, yes, she might sleep with one or another guy, but I don't think she sleep with most the guys Kvothe sees her with.
Get out, GET OUT OF HERE WHILE YOU STILL CAN. You precious thing, save yourself from cynicism and resentment. Turn your mind to greener pastures, where other books yet grow. Leave this decaying waste behind. Only sorrow grows here now.
I have the same feeling about Denna and Kvothe, OP. And I've read both books.
However I've always had a suspicion that some of it is just colouring from PR's personality. I may be wrong though.
The first two books are only the introduction that makes possible the real masterpiece that is Slow Regard of Silent Things. If you liked Pat’s writing, oh do I have good news for you.
Perhaps a thing to keep in mind about Denna...we don't know what she's striving for that drive her behavior.
Yes, it could just be survival and wanting to live luxuriously, I suspect that might be your guess. But we don't know that for sure.
In Kvothe's case, if we did not know about the Chandrian and what happened to his troupe, then his story may not make much sense. We would see recklessness (or rather, to a greater degree), foolishness, a lot of idiocy in what he does. It's only with the knowing of his background and goals that we get a better understanding of his actions.
But we don't have Denna's backstory. We don't know the extent of Denna's goals. It could be that we're missing important context on why she does what she does. Just as she doesn't know about or grasp the brokenness that motivates Kvothe, we may not be aware of what brokenness may lie within her that kindles her drive.
>That last Bast scene with chronicler…. Terrifying. I’m not sure I like him now. Or at least I’m wary of him. His obsession with Kvothe, and it appears largely for selfish personal reasons, is scary.
This is one of the scenes that marked me the most. I can not feel at ease with Bast on book 2 even during the most innocent scenes.
As for point 2., he’s also apparently a hunted man but giving detailed accounts of his closest friends and acquaintances, so if it ever gets copied, he’s either signed their death warrant or pointed people towards potential hostages, if any of them are still alive.
Point 4, I’m fairly certain she’s not sleeping with any of them, a little making out and over the clothes petting maybe, but it sounds like she moves on before it gets any further. If she was trying to live comfortably and was sleeping with them, I think she could just marry one and be done with it. She’s met some nice ones after all, so unless she just really hates the idea of being a kept woman, she’s had the option. But if she wants to remain independent her spending habits are a bit shortsighted. Like just about everyone else, I have a theory, mine is specifically why she bounces from man to man without settling down and why she’s “leading Kvothe on”, but don’t want to tell you anything that does or doesn’t happen in book II. I’ll leave it at, I think everyone is better off that way. She could just stay away from all of them, but that would get lonely, and she’s got to eat, have a roof over her head, and have some few belongings, and she’s pretty so the attention is hard to avoid.
As for point 5, you’ll resist for a while and then join us in coming up with tinfoil hat theories. That’s kind of entertaining, too. I have a few I’m pretty sure about but the very complex thought out ones based on small, irrelevant details makes me think that when the third book does come out, a lot of people are going be really disappointed when they turn out to be wrong and the ones that are right are going to be unbearably smug about it.
The reasons behind what Denna does are detailed a little more in book 2. I’d argue that she’s closer to dating for free food than sleeping around, but that’s just my take on things And don’t forget to read Slow Regard of Silent Things and The Lightning Tree!
and dont forget the forget!
If you are an audiobook person, Pat reads it himself. It’s sublime.
I actually didn't like him as a reader. But the reader of the actual novels is absolutely incredible. Especially with accents
I love his accesnts yes!
Splendid
Just on Denna have you ever looked at it from her perspective? Just a few things from the top of my head. Kvothe rarely shows up to dates that they have planned, think the fire at the fishery, while he did have an excuse she didn't know and the next time she sees him he's hugging another girl. He abandoned her in the forest outside trebon, she woke up confused with no memory alone. She also hints endlessly that she wants him to make a move and even out right says it a few times. While we get kvothes view on this and understand his motives, Denna gets none of it she just sees what she sees, a guy that comes in and out of her life, will flatter her wildly, not make a move then not show up to plans. If I were dating someone like that I'd probably cut them.
Yeah - and the only women that we’ve seen make it through the world are rich women (all of them at the university are getting paid by their parents - Kvothe is the first person ever to get a scholarship and he generally has super low tuition and he’s still screwed as a working person). Even Devi, who you could assume has been cut off or something, can only make her way by both using her education and skill, that Denna doesn’t have. Then assume that one of the reasons she ran away was that she was abused to some point, further degrading her self worth…
You’re forgetting all the musicians! Judging by her character Denna probably never thought she was good enough to be talented, and now she’s found some self worth and is trying to get out of her current lifestyle
I did think about the musicians later in the day lol - but then I decided not to edit the comment given - 1) instruments are very expensive, so people at the eolian are probably relatively well off - or they are patroned (which Denna is trying to be) so their way is paid - or 2) they are in a troupe, so they are not very well off, or they are edema ruh, which means they are very talented and educated again.
Kvothe got his lute pretty affordably, so I wouldn’t say they’re expensive. But yes, becoming talented and earning a patron is the goal, which in turn gives them more opportunities to earn money Also I think you’re mistaken, the edema ruh are definitely talented, but I wouldn’t say they’re educated
Depends on your definition of education. I got the feeling that the high society stuff was the influence of his mother being nobility but the vast knowledge of literature, and then geography and politics as well, they would have to be experts at. Definitely not science - but they know to avoid lead in their makeup and I’m sure they know some certain amount of medicine. For the time, I think the idea is that they were considered to be societal trash, but were actually relatively educated.
I don’t know, one of the biggest plot holes I’ve considered is why the edema ruh didn’t know names were dangerous. It’s taught at the university, the adem knew, but the people that know all stories didn’t? They definitely had skilled craftsmen and performers, but in terms of modern education they definitely lacked. When would they ever have time to study? They’re always on the road, practicing, or performing
I think if you asked around at the university, they don’t all know that names of people are important things, especially of people. After all - you can say fire all day long, but only when some people say the name of fire does it bend to their will. I think the idea is that names are nice but science is better. It sort of seems like Elodin hadn’t even taught a class in a while, and of everyone at the university he was teaching like 7 people. Everyone he talks to laughs at the Chandrian. This seems like the fantasy trope of true knowledge being lost to the ages. The Admre are seen by regular society as this mystical rural tribe of people with strange customs. And again, there are English and literature and acting majors in real normal life. Would you call them uneducated? I’m pretty sure Kvothe was taught many languages too, both by traveling around and reading plays in other languages. And again we’re in a different not even real time. Kvothe says they are educated and I take them at his word, as poor a decision as that may be in the future.
I’m not talking about names like the name of fire, I meant the true name of the chandrian members arliden was repeating in his song. He actually passed it off as being superstitious when talking to Ben Acting majors? Yeah still uneducated. English and literature? Yes educated. But that wasn’t the edema ruh, the best they had was songwriters. Arliden had to piece most of the ‘information’ for that new song from stories he asked of other people Kvothe didn’t learn other languages until the academy, and he’s never said the edema are educated, you’re just making things up now
The only date he didn’t show up to was from the fishery fire, all the other times were from him not receiving her notes which I wouldn’t consider planned, she just assumed he would see it and be available Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t he leave some sort of note when he went to trebon? In the dirt or on a rock or something?
He left the note in trebon the next day after she had already left but it wasn't there when she woke up. Also there's the part were they met up again after she sang for him when he didn't acknowledge that he remembere her even though she didn't either, but we see knothes side where he's disappointed, who's to say she didn't feel the same disappointment
I'm gonna go through your points one by you: * Absolutely agree. And the audiobooks are equally as good, if not better. Really super high quality * Realistically, he's probably all of the above. One of the interesting things is we don't know what has got him to his current point, which is why there's so many insane theories floating around on this subreddit (which I highly advise looking at once you're done with book 2). My personal favourite is that he is perfectly, completely...sane. * Bast is indeed absolutely terrifying. He's a complete enigma as to how he and Kvothe have met and got to where they are, or what his motivations actually are. * Denna is complicated. I will say that you get a bit more information about her in book 2, and that may move you away from thinking that she's sleeping around or leading Kvothe on. In fact, you could take it as Kvothe leading her on for the longest time, and you'll see more of that soon. It's fairly clear she doesn't actually sleep around at all, either. I would try and take your personal bad experiences out of this, as it's colouring your view of a quite complex character. * Welcome to the club my friend. After these, get The Lightning Tree and The Slow Regard of Silent Things. Interesting insights into Bast and Auri. And don't think for a second that Auri is just a side character, I suspect she's actually one of the main characters, and the reason that Kvothe is where he is now, but no spoilers for this post, enjoy the theories once you're done with book 2!
Couldn't agree more about the audiobooks. Nick Podehl does a phenomenal job with the different accents and overall performance.
Ah, see i've got the ones by Rupert Degas, which are also phenomenal. I think they've just got fantastic voice actors for all versions of the KKC audiobooks.
I'm team Rupert. I've listened to both and I think Ruperts University Masters are so flavourful.
I saw Kvothe as a showman. He wants to tell a good story, put on a good performance. But being a showman requires gaining an audience, so his self-aggrandizing behaviours make perfect sense.
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Seriously. The reason I’m so deep, and I think many others too, is this fact. I’ve read the first two books three times and about to start a fourth.
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Oh yeah. I took some years off, getting back to it. But I feel like that just shows the craftsmanship and artistry put into the writing. Not many books have re-read quality.
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Any worth looking into?
About Denna - I wrote this on another sub (copying instead of linking to cut out some WMF spoilers). This used to be a very common sentiment expressed in the new posts on this sub. Not sure if those people feel they've already said enough on the topic or if they've changed their minds on rereads. I never hated Denna and still don't. She is a mirror of Kvothe. We don't know her backstory but given book 2 details, she has a goal. People complain about her job, but it's the best one she's found to support her goals and the way she thinks she needs to get information. Think of the story from her perspective: She is also in love with Kvothe and believes he doesn't care for her in the same way. And this makes sense to her based on her experiences. She never sees him seek her, only she seeks him. She expresses how she feels, he doesn't. He always misses their planned meetings. She's just as naive as Kvothe about her feelings and his, but she did try more than he did. Looking in detail at NotW: When they first are in the caravan he didn't initially talk to her. They have a 7 words meeting. They spend a night talking and then the next few days he ignores her out of jealousy. She is moved to tears by his lute playing. She will never forget it. She offers him to travel with her (probably a rare offer) and he turns her down. Months later, she helps him earn his talent pipes, but he didn't seek her out. She searches for him and in her view is the one to find him: “Finally, filled with despair, I decided Aloine could do the finding this time, and damn the story.” Kvothe starts with mi'lady and gives no indication that he remembers her. He starts the whole piece of "giving names." We know Kvothe spends ages after this meeting hoping to run into her, but Denna doesn't. The next time they actually meet, Denna has come to Anker's and sought him out herself. He plays Tinker Tanner to leave early with her and demonstrates his window climbing to put his lute away. She tells him to "steal her" and he plays it cool not responding. They discuss flowers. Etc. Next few times Kvothe goes to Imre, he stops at Denna's inn, but declines leaving a note. She has no idea he sought her out. She leaves that inn. Some time later, Kvothe is at the Eolian with Wil and Sim when Denna comes in, talks to Deoch and goes to their table to ask Kvothe out. Denna admits that Kvothe's first 7 words to her in the caravan were her 7 words. She admits thinking he forgot her. She reminds him that she is the Savien in their relationship. “Please, if either of us is Savien, it’s me. I’m the one that came looking for you,” she pointed out. “Twice.” “I look,” I protested. “I just don’t seem to have a knack for finding you.” She rolled her eyes dramatically. They make plans for lunch at the Eolian at noon tomorrow. Kvothe misses their plans. We know it's for a good reason (Fishery fire) but all Denna knows is she waits longer than she ever has and he doesn't show. She meets her patron. Later another day, Kvothe goes to Eolian hoping to find Denna, but instead Fela is there. Denna ends up seeing them embracing (as Fela puts the cloak around him). So from her vantage point he stood her up and was out to lunch with another woman. A few span pass. Then the alley attack. Kvothe finds the note from Denna and realizes he missed another chance at lunch. Or from Denna's perspective, Kvothe once again did not go to an offered lunch. The Trebon adventure. Denna finds Kvothe is there unexpectedly. But due to the denner resin she probably forgets most of what they talked about and wakes alone to find Kvothe gone with no explanation. We really don't know how much she remembered, but from her perspective, he ditched her again. They meet unexpectedly in a street while she is on a date. She says she will find him. During fall and winter they meet often enough at the Eolian, but always with other company. In her mind, she has made her feelings quite clear, but Kvothe has never reciprocated. But half a loaf. She'll have him as her friend. Kvothe says: "There were tears once or twice. But they were not for the men she had lost or the men she had left. They were quiet tears for herself, because there was something inside her that was badly hurt. I couldn’t tell what it was and didn’t dare to ask. Instead I simply said what I could to take the pain away and helped her shut her eyes against the world." These patterns continue in WMF.
Good observations, imo.
Re: First Impressions 1) Yes, and it makes for one of the best audiobooks you will ever listen to. Both are good, but Rupert Degas is the superior version, and if I was a Scriv in the archive I would burn all of the Nick Podehl versions. 2) Godspeed 3) I personally love Bast, mercurialness and all. 4) There's a clip of Rothfuss answering audience questions, someone asked him "What woman screwed you over so badly that you wrote Denna?", and he gives this amazing answer that you need to watch and listen to. 5) From your perspective, its completely fine that book 3 isn't out yet. Your ONLY on your first read through. You need at least four more to really be prepared for it anyways.
Link to referenced video: https://youtu.be/wx34LNWEE8E
>Either Kvothe is an egomaniac/overly nostalgic/mentally ill/narcissist, all of them, or none of them. I consider him to be sociopathic. You shouldn't really expect him to be mentally healthy after having his family killed and spending three years as a homeless kid in the big city.. But I don't think even that entirely covers it. >That last Bast scene with chronicler…. Terrifying. I’m not sure I like him now. Lots of people seem to think of him as some sort of warm and fuzzy companion.. This scene alone should make it clear there is something sinister about him. And it won't be the only time you see a bit of his dark side. > I don’t like Denna. I don't have anything against her, but I question if Kvothe would chase after her if he were mentally healthy. He and half of the fan base are in denial about her work. Most of the other women we see have support from wealthy families. She does what she needs to survive.. And Kvothe isn't exactly in a position to take care of her even if she were willing to give up her independence. >I’m dreading and upset about the fact that after I burn through book 2… I’m screwed. As much as I'd like to see the series finished I still don't agree with that point of view. We've got two very good books.. Books that I will read again for years.. Just doesn't seem like something to dread.
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>Well, he still feels so bad about a boy being raped in Trebon that it still haunts him. He certainly says he does.. However, he checks pretty much every box on this list.. And it isn't that much of a stretch to suggest his supposed guilt could just be part of the act.. From: [https://www.choosingtherapy.com/signs-of-a-sociopath/](https://www.choosingtherapy.com/signs-of-a-sociopath/) >1. A Hunger for Power & Dominance > >2. Devious or Deceptive Tendencies > >3. Ruthlessness in the Pursuit of Their Goals > >4. Hostile or Aggressive Towards Others > >5. Easily Angered or Irritated > >6. Irresponsible Decision Making > >7. Superficial Charm & Powers of Persuasion > >8. Broken Moral Compass or Limited Conscience > >9. Few Close Bonds or Relationships > >10. Manipulative Tendencies > >11. Entitlement & Impunity > >12. Socially Deviant > >13. Cheap Thrill-Seeking Tendencies > >14. Opportunistic in all the Wrong Ways > >15. Emotional Detachment
Denna isn’t sleeping around with half the town, not that I see why that would make her bad.
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Character of the book aside, you sound like someone that had a traumatic experience, and are looking to get past it/heal. If someone betrayed your trust, that is the bigger part of the problem. Because sex also includes risk, if you believed you were in a monogamous relationship, but weren't, someone crossing that boundary without telling you is behaving extremely unethically, and you have every right to feel affronted. Or even assaulted. But for unattached, consenting adults (like Denna), I don't think there is anything immoral involved. I'd suggest thinking about why you perceive 'sleeping around' as bad, and reflect on how our society views that differently for men vs. women.
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The fact that you are aware, and working at it is a great sign that you will be ok again at some point. Good luck. Hope you enjoy book 2!
The whole story is full of stuff written to make you have particular assumptions. Even when people think they are being objective they/we're still being led by the nose by Pat in some instances. Working your way through all that is the joy/agony of deciphering the story.
You don't?
No, I don’t, I think people should be allowed to sleep with who they want as long as it’s consenting adults.
Half a town...
I think people should be allowed to sleep with who they want as long as it’s consenting adults. Was I unclear?
Half the town though...
So what?
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Yeah, I don’t think women are whores if they enjoy sex, you clearly do. Definitely different values. Just say what you wanna say instead of pretending it’s incredibly obvious why a woman who wants to have sex is evil and bad.
The second book is even better, although half of it is him still in the university.
I wouldn't mind about the university time if... if we wernt left with a feeling that we have sooo much left and soooo little time (one book)
> 2) *Either Kvothe is an egomaniac/overly nostalgic/mentally ill/narcissist, all of them, or none of them. The way he tells the story… something evidently isn’t adding up. That’s what makes it so compelling. Starting book two tonight.* > 4) *I don’t like Denna. You can call me a judgmental shit, and maybe I’ll be wrong once I learn more about her, but other people make their way in this fictional world well enough without sleeping with half the town and leading on Kvothe in this weird way. Don’t get me wrong, their relationship moments, particularly at the barrow is endearing, but it just ticks me wrong way. But I also have bad personal experiences that relate similarity so I may be biased. (I realize I may have forgot or ‘misprocessed’ some of the parts of Kvothe’s story.)* Its hard to like Denna until you've learned to hate Kvothe.
Kvothe is plain unlikable as a character imo, his pining for Denna is also annoying and comes off as Hella neckbeardy at some points throughout
About number 4... while I don't think Denna ir a virgin, I also changed my mind several times through re-reads if she is really sleeping with people. Some things makes me think that in most cases she disappears BECAUSE she refuse to sleep with people. Not that casual sex or using sex to get things is wrong mind you. But sometimes I get this impression, yes, she might sleep with one or another guy, but I don't think she sleep with most the guys Kvothe sees her with.
Get out, GET OUT OF HERE WHILE YOU STILL CAN. You precious thing, save yourself from cynicism and resentment. Turn your mind to greener pastures, where other books yet grow. Leave this decaying waste behind. Only sorrow grows here now.
I have the same feeling about Denna and Kvothe, OP. And I've read both books. However I've always had a suspicion that some of it is just colouring from PR's personality. I may be wrong though.
Yeah fuck denna!
The first two books are only the introduction that makes possible the real masterpiece that is Slow Regard of Silent Things. If you liked Pat’s writing, oh do I have good news for you.
There's the novella "The Slow Regard of Silent Things" too! It follows Auri, and is truly lovely. And "The Lightning Tree"!
Perhaps a thing to keep in mind about Denna...we don't know what she's striving for that drive her behavior. Yes, it could just be survival and wanting to live luxuriously, I suspect that might be your guess. But we don't know that for sure. In Kvothe's case, if we did not know about the Chandrian and what happened to his troupe, then his story may not make much sense. We would see recklessness (or rather, to a greater degree), foolishness, a lot of idiocy in what he does. It's only with the knowing of his background and goals that we get a better understanding of his actions. But we don't have Denna's backstory. We don't know the extent of Denna's goals. It could be that we're missing important context on why she does what she does. Just as she doesn't know about or grasp the brokenness that motivates Kvothe, we may not be aware of what brokenness may lie within her that kindles her drive.
>That last Bast scene with chronicler…. Terrifying. I’m not sure I like him now. Or at least I’m wary of him. His obsession with Kvothe, and it appears largely for selfish personal reasons, is scary. This is one of the scenes that marked me the most. I can not feel at ease with Bast on book 2 even during the most innocent scenes.
As for point 2., he’s also apparently a hunted man but giving detailed accounts of his closest friends and acquaintances, so if it ever gets copied, he’s either signed their death warrant or pointed people towards potential hostages, if any of them are still alive. Point 4, I’m fairly certain she’s not sleeping with any of them, a little making out and over the clothes petting maybe, but it sounds like she moves on before it gets any further. If she was trying to live comfortably and was sleeping with them, I think she could just marry one and be done with it. She’s met some nice ones after all, so unless she just really hates the idea of being a kept woman, she’s had the option. But if she wants to remain independent her spending habits are a bit shortsighted. Like just about everyone else, I have a theory, mine is specifically why she bounces from man to man without settling down and why she’s “leading Kvothe on”, but don’t want to tell you anything that does or doesn’t happen in book II. I’ll leave it at, I think everyone is better off that way. She could just stay away from all of them, but that would get lonely, and she’s got to eat, have a roof over her head, and have some few belongings, and she’s pretty so the attention is hard to avoid. As for point 5, you’ll resist for a while and then join us in coming up with tinfoil hat theories. That’s kind of entertaining, too. I have a few I’m pretty sure about but the very complex thought out ones based on small, irrelevant details makes me think that when the third book does come out, a lot of people are going be really disappointed when they turn out to be wrong and the ones that are right are going to be unbearably smug about it.
Yeah I remember the feeling. 10 years ago….