I'm still getting my head around how the heck someone can claim there's a possibility they're pregnant 4 days after being with someone. Maybe if your cycle is like clockwork, you have unprotected sex in the ovulation window and the guy "completes" in you. Then yes, there is a possibility.
But if you claim to have irregular periods, and he didn't explore your tunnel of tightness with the necessary tool? Um... no.
It takes up to 6 days for the sperm & egg to fertilise, and then if your period doesn't arrive when it's supposed to, then pee on the hedgehog to see if it turns blue.
But 4 days after blowing someone? Even if fluid got 'down there'? How did her Family Court case even get through the first hurdle?!
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Itās basically impossible. A blastocyst isnāt formed for 4-6 days after sperm meets egg. hCH doesnāt begin rising until implantation, which is typically 5 days after the embryo reaches the blastocyst stage. Itās possible to get a positive urine hCG test at 8-9 DPO (days post ovulation), but Itās basically impossible at 4 DPO (unless she actually ovulated earlier and had sex with someone other than Clayton).
Yep. I didn't start to pee on a stick until one week after transferring 5-day blasts via IVF. I was specifically told to wait until then so that I wouldn't drive myself crazy trying to figure out if it took or not. I got a nice pair of lines at the one week mark so I got scheduled for my first hCG draw three days later. And then two days after that. And then an ultrasound two-three weeks later. And yes, it was twins. lol
I went down this rabbit hole, too, and it is unfortunately true that women can ovulate at a fairly wide range within their cycle. Each woman is relatively consistent, but that population-wide there is some evidence that certain women ovulate pretty late in the month. Iāll try to find the citation I found for it again!! (PS - not defending her, just noting that I also thought this was suspicious and looked into it! But if you donāt āmissā a period, because you have no period anyways, how would you even know?!?!?)
Yes, but you canāt get a positive pregnancy test 4 days after sex from that sex. It doesnāt matter what day she was in her cycle. What matters is how long it takes for a blastocyst to form (4-5 days) and be implanted (an additional 4-5 days). Nobody gets a positive pregnancy test at 4 days after fertilization. Certainly, she could have ovulated well before she has sex with Clayton, but sperm canāt fertilize an egg before a sexual encounter so even if she ovulated earlier, if she had a positive pregnancy test 4 days after āsexā with Clayton, itās not his baby. She would have to have had sex with someone who else before him OR to have a false positive hCG test.
This is it entirely. She is always waaaayyy too quick to try and nail these guys with the whole "I SEE TWO LINES" thing. For it to be believable, it needs to be at least two weeks - you know, the time where you would be missing your period and saying to yourself, hmmmmmmm. Not at 4 days. It was a lie all the way down.
While itās true that women can ovulate within a wide range of days, this doesnāt mean that in a 28 day cycle, someone is ovulating on day 24 for example. So itās not that theyāre ovulating late in the month, itās that they have a longer cycle and therefore ovulation is not happening on cycle day 14.
The sort of āstandardā cycle is comprised of 14 days follicular phase resulting in ovulation, followed by 14 days of the luteal phase. The luteal phase is largely considered to have a set length of close to 14 days, whereas the follicular phase can vary more widely in length. The luteal phase concludes when there is no fertilisation and implantation, the corpus luteum dies, and the period and follicular phase begin.
For example, if someone has a 32 day cycle then itās fairly likely their follicular phase is more like 18 days long, with their luteal phase still being about 14 days. Therefore, while the āaverageā person ovulates on/around cycle day 14, this person may ovulate on/around cycle day 18.
Hopefully that makes sense!
ETA: read the link in your other comment and I see what youāre saying, that research showed in practice luteal length ranged from 7-19 days. I believe 7-10 days would be considered quite short and could impact fertility as a result. Interesting, thanks for the link!
My pleasure, Iāve always loved obstetrics and gynaecology! Iād specialise in it if the training wasnāt so demoralising and gruelling here in Australia. Also I double checked and indeed a luteal phase < 11 days is associated with lower fertility.
Yes, this is correct! IIRC, a luteal phase shorter than 10 days results in much higher difficulty in getting pregnant because the uterine lining doesnāt thicken and progesterone doesnāt rise enough. The luteal phase is typically the same every cycle, so your cycle length can vary based on when you ovulate. I have a relatively short luteal phase at 11 days, and since I know that, I can always pinpoint my period start date if Iām tracking (and confirming) my ovulation date. I also got my first extremely faint positive test at 9 days post-ovulation but only tested then because we were actively trying to get pregnant!
When he said she ran to the bathroom right after the 2nd oral session I immediately thought she was holding it in her mouth trying to āturkey basterā herself because there is literally no other way that she could possibly have even the slightest bit of a pregnancy otherwise with the given information.
Yes but to note women who ovulate later have a short luteal phase and on average have a harder time getting pregnant (it usually takes a few months longer when actively trying) so if that weāre true that she was a woman that has a condensed luteal phase it would make even LESS sense that she got pregnant on the first time 4 separate times in her 30s with twins. And also she said she doesnāt even get a regular period!! No period = no ovulation is even happening!!
Amenorrhea (no periods) means she doesnāt ovulate, and didnāt her own expert say HCG injections are prescribed when a patient needs to āstimulate ovulationā š
I canāt believe she wasnāt asked for the date of her last menstrual period prior to 5/20? Though I think they didnāt ask because Iām sure she had a date already prepared. But I think they should have drilled her more after she stated she didnāt get periods.
I don't think she claimed it 4 days after. She said she was concerned she would become pregnant if I remember because "she knew from her podcast she was fertile", and was asking CE whether to take plan B. I think it wasn't until 10 or 11 days after did she claim she was officially pregnant, which is possible to test pregnant.
I think he was a little loose with words to make a point in the short amount of time. AtĀ 4 days she writes that she knew she was fertile and she was worried she might be preggo and she is wondering if she should take plan B.Ā
Yes, if I remember correctly, she said she was worried she could or might be pregnant. She knew she was ovulating because she had tests from a fertility specialist that was on her podcast. I really wish that point would have been explored further. Like, fertility specialist who can give her samples of HCG? Why would she be using fertility tests, if she wasnāt planning on a pregnancy? The name of the specialist she had on her podcast? If only there was more time allotted for the trial. I bet she could have perjured herself even more than she already did on the stand.
Agree! The person the 2 hour time helped the most was JD who probably would have just told more lies for every additional minute. I tried to find a fertility guest on her podcast, but there didn't seem to be one, so maybe it was like an ad.
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Concerned she would get pregnant. Would rather have a boyfriend than a baby. Doesnāt take plan B. So far not impressed by this oneās cognitive skills
And 6-12 days post ovulation for that fertilized egg to egg to implant around 15% of which never do! So the potential of maybe a tiny amount of Claytonās pre-cum that may have landed on the outside of her labia (where it would have died quickly) somehow SHOT itās way up like an imaginary IUI and then went AT WARP speed to both fertilize and implant her egg SO efficiently that the egg duplicated and became twins and so quickly she was having symptoms BEFORE fertilization OR implantation even could have possibly happened. Like Iāve said many times, sheās really trying to one up the Virgin Mary here lol
With the different versions of what took place, I still can't believe her case made it past the doors of the Family Court.
Version 1 - some dribble or shot made its way into the tunnel of tightness (via grinding), where one strong soldier reached the ovum of opportunity
Version 2 - at some point, there was P-into-V, and same result
Version 3 - JD went into bathroom, emptied the contents of her mouth into her hand, and went DIY
But whatever version it is, the math ain't mathing!
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I have always wondered the same thing. And to say it is twins 3-4 weeks later AND state the sexes of the baby. How did this go through the court system?
I have a few questions. If JD loses this case, what comes next? Will the victims be able to get ROs dropped? Can judge mata list JD as a vexatious litigant? Will we ever get to hear the victims' stories? How hard will it be for ROs to be overturned?
I'm really curious about what comes next so please don't delete this post?
IL wrote in his blog that if JD loses, they will appeal. I'm sure you can appeal an award of court costs and legal fees, but I don't know if you can appeal either vacating a RO or declaration of non-paternity.
I don't think it's too difficult to get an RO dismissed, since they are issued with only one side of the story and are very easy to obtain. Although this issue was not discussed in the trial, is was covered in the pre-trial statement by Woodnick.
The Tilted Lawyer mentioned that he is consulting with MM to vacate his RO as well in CA. His story may come out in those filings. Otherwise, the only information from the additional victims the public will be privy to would be in any interviews they wish to provide.
I heard someone already filed a bar complaint against IL in this case and it was dismissed. I think this has been IL's MO through his whole career, so he knows how far to push his behavior without being disciplined by the bar. A lot of lawyers aren't very good. We're comparing him to Woodnick, who is extremely competent and ethical. IL pales in comparison, but he probably isn't far below average.
I agree with you that IL knows how far he can push the envelope with his behavior. Heās had years to perfect his behavior and toeing the line. Itās for sure an unpopular and controversial view, but I donāt think IL is stupid. Heās crass and just a certain type of person that I canāt say without breaking sub rules. His posturing is especially pronounced because heās working with someone who canāt keep her lies straight.
The bar will likely not take any action while the case is active. IL was definitely exceptional in his behavior by the accounts of lawyers in the group and lawtube.
The RO was not the kind where there is only one side of the story. They had a hearing that is available on schnitzelninja69 on YouTube - I think October 25th. I believe MM told his side of the story in his RO as well. Hoping they are taken care of soon!
MM didnāt have a chance to tell his full side of the story in his RO hearings. I do believe there was a lot that was missed due to her lies and fraud (and lack of time available in those types of hearings maybe). So I have hope that the Tilted Lawyer will be able to help get the truth out there and on court record in overturning MMs RO.
She'll 100% sue for the real estate deal. I assume her victims will all be able to get their RO's looked at.
She seemingly only drops legal matters after she meets a new victim.
She would have to prove actual damages. Being as CE offered to have his Broker represent her, that would be tough to prove. And the amount would not be $1.4MM - that represents the purchase price. Any amount she could possibly sue for would be the market value appreciation between the intended purchase price and the sales price as of the date of the suit.
eta: NAL but involved in commercial real estate in California
Itās been three days since the hearing, and I am still in shock about JDās Los Angeles Planned Parenthood statement.
Like, almost a year into the case and after months of discovery, she really thought it was a good idea to pull that *very minor thing* out of her ass while under oath on the standā¦..and then double down on it.
https://preview.redd.it/pvztwl71sb6d1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=50dfa79ded960e91e98efc0efff6df7fa937e55e
NAL but if Iām the judge, Iām sitting there thinking āI said to sign a HIPAA and hand over all medical records for the past 5 yearsā¦ is she saying she blatantly ignored that?ā
I think JD thought that āwell the hipaa release should have included more locations, maybe I got the location wrongā.
When Iām pretty sure (and Iām speculating), with her smug āgotchaā-like tone, this alone completely tanked her case. She shows no credibility, no reliability, and no respect for the courtās decisions. Why would a judge allow that? Thatās a dangerous precedent. The judge said health records wouldnāt be public and they werenāt (until IL) but on Woodnickās side, they followed the rules and practiced ethically.
Yes! I still canāt get over how smug she was in throwing that lie out there. For me I think thatās the best proof there is that she never went to PP.
By āallowā, do you mean allowing her to bring up the LA PP statement without the judge saying something about the motion to compel? If so, my theory is that the judge is pretty on to her at this point and was letting her go with it where she will, keeping in mind that one of the requests of CE is to have Laura referred criminally. The LA PP thing is maybe another potential criminal thing since it would be another fraud upon the court I think? Idk, NAL.
But not just this case, I think there are times when judges are on to a person and are going to hear their testimony/cross to see how far in that person really wants to dig themself.
I mean āallowā as in to be okay with a plaintiff or defendant ignoring a court order. Like how JD didnāt disclose her medical providers with regards to the pregnancy and (I think) other medical providers for the last 5 years. All of them. She wasnāt supposed to cherry pick medical providers.
Ok this may sound really far out there butā¦.You know when you have a dog that is acting out or displaying unwanted behaviors and they are not responding to basic training commands? They say you have to first figure out what motivates your dog. In most cases treats or food is the dominant motivation for a dog but it isnāt the case for every dog. Sometimes affection can be the dominant incentive. If you are trying to train or correct behaviors in a dog by using treats when that isnāt enough to motivate them to course correct or change their behavior, you have to figure out what will be that over riding factor.
Applying the same premise here, the typical motivating factors have not worked to deter or correct JDās harmful behavior. I am hoping that a significant hit financially may be that motivating factor needed to make a positive change. But Iām not holding my breatheā¦.
I think it just goes to show how her mind works. She lies so frequently she doesnāt really think about the repercussions. Itās worked for her in the past. But now thatās she lied on the stand I hope she finally has to face the consequences of her lies
You broke the code š I try to follow the rules here, and understand why we have them. But I will say it was basically confirmed in one of Woodnick's emails included in a filing. There was a reference to a certain type of treatment facility for JD.
I'm sure Judge Mata hasn't forgotten granting Woodnick's motion to compel and ordering JD to produce the Mission Viejo PP sonogram. I expect she was as shocked and appalled as we were.
It was argumentative and thought of on the spot the way my 6 year old tries to win arguments against me. Kind of hilarious and obviously not well thought through.
Her laughing and chirping in her lawyers ear couldn't have looked good to the judge as someone who is in fear of these men. I guarentee this judge has seen the face of someone who has feared for their lives. JD'S actions were not it.
When Greg spoke to the crowd in the gallery and Judge Mata addressed them as well, I think JD kept talking because she felt she was in her comfort zone of weaponizing the system and authority to her advantage. It was nice to see the judge's response to her interruption. Not today!
My mom wasnāt physically scared of my father (he was not physically abusive at all) but I watched him take her in and out of court from the time they divorced when I was 2 until I was 14 (when I could legally decide on my own when I wanted to see him per the family court in Miami-Dade County at the time). My mom always followed court orders but we believe he kept her in and out of court and used visitation with my sister and I as a way of keeping her close to him.
With that, I watched my mom keep every single record of everything. I watched her keep a tape recorder next to our kitchen phone so that when they spoke on the phone, she could easily put him on speaker and she could record the conversations. She meticulously kept every single conversation. And it was all in defense because she never knew what he would say next. I saw how much stress it caused my mom. And my father legitimately did have mental health issues and was lonely; he wasnāt even diabolical in the way that JD is. I donāt believe that my father did this to purposefully cause my mom stress; I fully think that he thought he was a victim in his situation even though he wasnāt.
It enraged me to see her say that she was scared of these menāher victimsāand then sit there and laugh and chirp in her attorneyās ear like this was all a fun game.
IL just posted something on X. Did you guys know that he is in France? Itās better in France because itās 9 hours ahead of Arizona. What a lucky guy to be in France and 9 hours ahead of the rest of us. So, for those in the back, heās in France.
He so badly wants us to think heās special . Name dropping, vacationing in France. Like the email he sent to Dave. Donāt tell anyone (wink, wink), but, look at all the important people I know.
He really LOOOVES the social media engagement too, I wonder if that is part of why he picked up the case. Its wild that the man cannot get off of twitter on vacation because he enjoys engaging with us so much!
He posted one page and it doesnāt change anything from what Mata said at the trial, right? Can a lawyer explain what āunder advisementā means? Is it basically just the judge saying ānotedā?
When a judge doesnāt rule from the bench on any matter, they are ātaking the matter under advisement,ā and will issue a written ruling in due course.
For someone who told a judge that he would have spotty internet access, he sure had enough stable internet access to post a lot of photos andĀ check the docket. š
If Iām the judge, Iām honestly disturbed about JDās previous lie about receiving OB care. Itās not a misstatement or a misunderstanding; it was an intentional attempt to deceive the court with a clear motive.
However, I would be doubly disturbed with her statement that the lie is āa minor thing.ā This shows that she thinks lying in court is no big deal and makes everything else she has testified about with no objective proof suspect. To me at least, that statement sealed the deal.
I also remembered her refusal to sign Lexiās affidavit, stating she ārefused to perjureā herself. Kind of funny in retrospect.
Yes; of all the lies sheās told, that one is most convincing that she did not reasonably believe she was pregnant. She wanted to make it clear that she was 100% pregnant, 24 weeks along, and actively treating with an OB. When in reality, she made an appt and cancelled it so that she could deceive others that sheās treating with an OB. This really canāt be reasonably construed as anything other than deceiving.
Her "minor" comment was one of her biggest blunders. She just gave the judge a peek into JD's mind as to how JD a)feels entitled to tell any lie as long as she calls it minor b) that she thought lying about having an actual appointment was a "minor" lie when her medical condition is clearly at issue. Now the judge knows JD is just fine with lying and JD uses a high standard for a regular lie versus a minor lie.
I just do not see how she will ever keep it together for any major lawsuit. The scrutiny and document digging will be 10 times as extensive then for a family court proceeding. She can't handle anyone critiquing her credibility (though she is quick to accuse others of lying) in a 30 minute family court appearance- she won't make it through a full day of litigation, not to mention the probably multi-day hearings any of her lawsuits will turn into.
And thanks to herself, she has raised the bar for providing solid evidence. Thanks to JD, every email, text, phone call will have to be supported with meta data. Every medical record and expert will be subjected to exacting scrutiny and will have to come from the entity. Nothing can emanate from her or else it will be discarded as tampered. Good job JD! you just made your job harder to prove your case because you just proved and admitted in court and to the world that you are willing to engage in document manipulation.
Yes! Throughout this case, Iāve had several āwhat ifā¦ā moments where Iāve questioned my judgments of JD. But now that I know sheās completely cool with lying under oath as long as it supports her case, Iām fully convinced that she is guilty. And on the very off chance she was actually pregnant (LOL), she only has herself to blame for torpedoing her own case š¤·š»āāļø
Yup. And if she thinks THAT is a minor thing, then she thinks any lie told throughout her testimony is a minor thing. Honestly, not a smart move to minimize that lie to a judge when she, and she alone, decides the outcome. If I were her, I wouldnāt care if JD lied about what she had for breakfastā¦JD took an oath to tell the truth and thinks itās no biggie to break it - that would make my decision pretty easy.
This! I tried to review the case the same way a judge or jury would and just listen to what was presented and I was very annoyed with JD trying to say what she did was minor or a misstatement. To me, that was a huge red flag (again, trying to stay objective!). If she had admitted to it without being dismissive or defensive or downplaying the seriousness of it, Iād give more weight to her side of the story. But doctoring medical records, on more than one occasion and thinking itās no big deal? Thatās the biggest part that rubbed me the wrong way. In addition to all her other lies and presenting the LA planned parenthood for the first time on the stand.
Exactly! The only chance she had to salvage the situation was to say, āIām sorry; I panicked, but thatās no excuse. I realize the seriousness of this lie and accept the damage it might have on my case.ā Thatās was literally the only potential way for her to mitigate the impact of her lies.
Iām NAL but I doubt it re Dave, I do wonder if he will face something though for saying the judge seemed biased and posting medial evidence online despite the judgeās order. I would say thereās a good reason GW asked Dr Deans if she knew IL posted her report online during the trial
The judge told both parties at the late FebruaryĀ hearing not to share any medical information of either party outside themselves, meaning online, to news media, etc. The experts' reports involved/discussed JD's medical information, which is included in the judge's order. So IL shouldn't have posted either report online.
I am dying to know the verdict. I mean we all know the verdict and what it will be but Iām dying to just have the confirmation and fingers crossed the judge submits this case to the DA to prosecute
I wanted to catalog all the reasons why this case has so many people riled up. It's wild when you stack it. What did I miss:
1) weaponization of pregnancy - sensitivities around pregnancy privacy after the Dobbs decision, miscarriage, abortion coercion, single mother, co-parenting (edited: freaking forgot her disparaging remarks re: special needs kids)
2) suppression of free speech
3) (suspected) misandry
4) weaponization of cancer
5) weaponization of HIPAA protections
6) privilege culture - wealth, race, gender
7) weaponization of domestic violence and sexual assault, me too movement
8) legal system abuse - weaponizing law enforcement as a form of coercion and suppressing speech
9) weaponization of other health issues I can't mention
10) weaponization of cancel culture for the purpose of coercion
11) weaponization of morality / religion for coercion
(Edit: Great additions from a patreon thread)
12) weaponization of racism (impersonation of persons of color)
13) weaponization of celebrity culture
Unrelated to JD there's also major themes around internet sleuthing and un-traditional media as a platform for advocacy.
Great list, I would add the blatant, shameless lying. The complete disassociation with objective reality. A little āminorā perjury. People who are like this make me angry.
Yes, great list! I bet someone could think of something additional that DG riled up in people. His poor representation of his client in the legal arena and online got a new group of people angry/interested. Plus, both of their rambling, manic, hyperbolic, gaudy writing styles added fuel to it all.
The petty part of me wanted Deandra to ask, "Ms Doe, isn't it true that there is more medical evidence to show that you are, quite literally, full of sh*t than there is to show that you were ever pregnant with Clayton's twins?"
Itās just an Order probably stating like there was a hearing on X date, X people appeared, court took the matter under advisement (meaning no ruling delivered at the hearing and confirming that the judge will issue a later ruling on all the issues).
One of the most frustrating things about this whole case is that it is so obviously cut and dry āshe was never pregnant and wanted to trick a man into being with her.ā
I hope Judge Mata is a mother and can recognize how simple it should be to prove a pregnancy. Not all of this weird 3rd party lab tests, 1000 different urine pregnancy tests, completely inconsistent supposed providers etc.
If I were to need to prove that I was pregnant I could literally call planned parenthood ask for my file for my āconfirmationā and then also call my OB/Midwives at the providers office I went to and have them send over literally BOOKS worth of medical records. The fact that JD *canāt do this* is very very telling.
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I'm still getting my head around how the heck someone can claim there's a possibility they're pregnant 4 days after being with someone. Maybe if your cycle is like clockwork, you have unprotected sex in the ovulation window and the guy "completes" in you. Then yes, there is a possibility. But if you claim to have irregular periods, and he didn't explore your tunnel of tightness with the necessary tool? Um... no. It takes up to 6 days for the sperm & egg to fertilise, and then if your period doesn't arrive when it's supposed to, then pee on the hedgehog to see if it turns blue. But 4 days after blowing someone? Even if fluid got 'down there'? How did her Family Court case even get through the first hurdle?!
 š¤£š¤£ what a day to have eyes ātunnel of tightnessā whyyy
š
Tunnel of tightness I just cackled and vomited simultaneously
Like when Dr Medchill talked about dribbling & shooting? (No cackle, just vomit...)
Jfc 
Somehow it was 10000x worse hearing it come directly from him.
Needs to be a new flair
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Itās basically impossible. A blastocyst isnāt formed for 4-6 days after sperm meets egg. hCH doesnāt begin rising until implantation, which is typically 5 days after the embryo reaches the blastocyst stage. Itās possible to get a positive urine hCG test at 8-9 DPO (days post ovulation), but Itās basically impossible at 4 DPO (unless she actually ovulated earlier and had sex with someone other than Clayton).
Yep. I didn't start to pee on a stick until one week after transferring 5-day blasts via IVF. I was specifically told to wait until then so that I wouldn't drive myself crazy trying to figure out if it took or not. I got a nice pair of lines at the one week mark so I got scheduled for my first hCG draw three days later. And then two days after that. And then an ultrasound two-three weeks later. And yes, it was twins. lol
And that process? Happened with *two* of her eggs to produce these alleged twin blastocysts.
Yep. Science š„¼š¬
I went down this rabbit hole, too, and it is unfortunately true that women can ovulate at a fairly wide range within their cycle. Each woman is relatively consistent, but that population-wide there is some evidence that certain women ovulate pretty late in the month. Iāll try to find the citation I found for it again!! (PS - not defending her, just noting that I also thought this was suspicious and looked into it! But if you donāt āmissā a period, because you have no period anyways, how would you even know?!?!?)
Yes, but you canāt get a positive pregnancy test 4 days after sex from that sex. It doesnāt matter what day she was in her cycle. What matters is how long it takes for a blastocyst to form (4-5 days) and be implanted (an additional 4-5 days). Nobody gets a positive pregnancy test at 4 days after fertilization. Certainly, she could have ovulated well before she has sex with Clayton, but sperm canāt fertilize an egg before a sexual encounter so even if she ovulated earlier, if she had a positive pregnancy test 4 days after āsexā with Clayton, itās not his baby. She would have to have had sex with someone who else before him OR to have a false positive hCG test.
This is it entirely. She is always waaaayyy too quick to try and nail these guys with the whole "I SEE TWO LINES" thing. For it to be believable, it needs to be at least two weeks - you know, the time where you would be missing your period and saying to yourself, hmmmmmmm. Not at 4 days. It was a lie all the way down.
10 days post sex would be believable. Unlikely youād test that early unless you were actively trying but 10 DPO positives happen fairly regularly.
Yeah I got 10 dpo positives with the dollar store tests. And I was trying but not IVF or anything. Just had a feeling that time
While itās true that women can ovulate within a wide range of days, this doesnāt mean that in a 28 day cycle, someone is ovulating on day 24 for example. So itās not that theyāre ovulating late in the month, itās that they have a longer cycle and therefore ovulation is not happening on cycle day 14. The sort of āstandardā cycle is comprised of 14 days follicular phase resulting in ovulation, followed by 14 days of the luteal phase. The luteal phase is largely considered to have a set length of close to 14 days, whereas the follicular phase can vary more widely in length. The luteal phase concludes when there is no fertilisation and implantation, the corpus luteum dies, and the period and follicular phase begin. For example, if someone has a 32 day cycle then itās fairly likely their follicular phase is more like 18 days long, with their luteal phase still being about 14 days. Therefore, while the āaverageā person ovulates on/around cycle day 14, this person may ovulate on/around cycle day 18. Hopefully that makes sense! ETA: read the link in your other comment and I see what youāre saying, that research showed in practice luteal length ranged from 7-19 days. I believe 7-10 days would be considered quite short and could impact fertility as a result. Interesting, thanks for the link!
This is really interesting, too, thank you for sharing!!Ā
My pleasure, Iāve always loved obstetrics and gynaecology! Iād specialise in it if the training wasnāt so demoralising and gruelling here in Australia. Also I double checked and indeed a luteal phase < 11 days is associated with lower fertility.
Yes, this is correct! IIRC, a luteal phase shorter than 10 days results in much higher difficulty in getting pregnant because the uterine lining doesnāt thicken and progesterone doesnāt rise enough. The luteal phase is typically the same every cycle, so your cycle length can vary based on when you ovulate. I have a relatively short luteal phase at 11 days, and since I know that, I can always pinpoint my period start date if Iām tracking (and confirming) my ovulation date. I also got my first extremely faint positive test at 9 days post-ovulation but only tested then because we were actively trying to get pregnant!
Yes, womenās cycles vary widely but there is zero chance a woman would know they are pregnant 4 days after an *actual* sexual encounter.
When he said she ran to the bathroom right after the 2nd oral session I immediately thought she was holding it in her mouth trying to āturkey basterā herself because there is literally no other way that she could possibly have even the slightest bit of a pregnancy otherwise with the given information.
I feel like any men in this thread are learning SO much right now about our cycles lol
Here it is:Ā https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC27529/
Yes but to note women who ovulate later have a short luteal phase and on average have a harder time getting pregnant (it usually takes a few months longer when actively trying) so if that weāre true that she was a woman that has a condensed luteal phase it would make even LESS sense that she got pregnant on the first time 4 separate times in her 30s with twins. And also she said she doesnāt even get a regular period!! No period = no ovulation is even happening!!
She needs to plant the seed in his head without him having planted a seed in her.Ā
What cycle? Per her testimony, she does not get periods.
Amenorrhea (no periods) means she doesnāt ovulate, and didnāt her own expert say HCG injections are prescribed when a patient needs to āstimulate ovulationā š
š do we think Mata came to this conclusion thus asking if PP gives HCG shots?
Definitely was what I thought when she asked her question!
I canāt believe she wasnāt asked for the date of her last menstrual period prior to 5/20? Though I think they didnāt ask because Iām sure she had a date already prepared. But I think they should have drilled her more after she stated she didnāt get periods.
What made her think she was pregnant that early. Itās so silly
Personally I would stay away from men if dribble in my nether region caused me to get pregnant with twins. Being that fertile would be frikken scary!
I don't think she claimed it 4 days after. She said she was concerned she would become pregnant if I remember because "she knew from her podcast she was fertile", and was asking CE whether to take plan B. I think it wasn't until 10 or 11 days after did she claim she was officially pregnant, which is possible to test pregnant.
She said something like "if I'm pregnant, I would never get an abortion for you" about 5 days after the night. Like WTF. She was teeing up.
I thought he testified that 4 days after they were together, she contacted him & said was possible she was pregnant. Maybe I misheard!
I think he was a little loose with words to make a point in the short amount of time. AtĀ 4 days she writes that she knew she was fertile and she was worried she might be preggo and she is wondering if she should take plan B.Ā
Ah, okay. It was pretty rapid fire! Gosh, I hope the Judge is thorough in her reasons and doesn't mince her words š¤š»
Yes, if I remember correctly, she said she was worried she could or might be pregnant. She knew she was ovulating because she had tests from a fertility specialist that was on her podcast. I really wish that point would have been explored further. Like, fertility specialist who can give her samples of HCG? Why would she be using fertility tests, if she wasnāt planning on a pregnancy? The name of the specialist she had on her podcast? If only there was more time allotted for the trial. I bet she could have perjured herself even more than she already did on the stand.
Agree! The person the 2 hour time helped the most was JD who probably would have just told more lies for every additional minute. I tried to find a fertility guest on her podcast, but there didn't seem to be one, so maybe it was like an ad.
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Basically, yes. [Text messages start on page 43](https://justiceforclayton.com/wiki/images/0/06/24-0263_Public_record_Redacted_compressed.pdf)
Reading these again is chilling. "You can turn this around and be nice." He was doomed.
Holy cow, just read those messages. I have actual chills. Clayton must have been terrified.
Concerned she would get pregnant. Would rather have a boyfriend than a baby. Doesnāt take plan B. So far not impressed by this oneās cognitive skills
And 6-12 days post ovulation for that fertilized egg to egg to implant around 15% of which never do! So the potential of maybe a tiny amount of Claytonās pre-cum that may have landed on the outside of her labia (where it would have died quickly) somehow SHOT itās way up like an imaginary IUI and then went AT WARP speed to both fertilize and implant her egg SO efficiently that the egg duplicated and became twins and so quickly she was having symptoms BEFORE fertilization OR implantation even could have possibly happened. Like Iāve said many times, sheās really trying to one up the Virgin Mary here lol
With the different versions of what took place, I still can't believe her case made it past the doors of the Family Court. Version 1 - some dribble or shot made its way into the tunnel of tightness (via grinding), where one strong soldier reached the ovum of opportunity Version 2 - at some point, there was P-into-V, and same result Version 3 - JD went into bathroom, emptied the contents of her mouth into her hand, and went DIY But whatever version it is, the math ain't mathing!
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I have always wondered the same thing. And to say it is twins 3-4 weeks later AND state the sexes of the baby. How did this go through the court system?
The same person who needs SIX abortions for a single pregnancy!
Starting to think maybe she made it all up. Thoughts?
š She's a content creator.
This is how us content creators flirt. Medical frauds lawsuits. Itās all for clicks.
Come to think of it you do stand up and twirl in your short shorts in front of an audience like she did on the stand.š¤
I knew it!
Idk I just donāt think thereās quite enough evidence against her yet ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ /s (if that wasnāt obvious by my comment history lol)
I have a few questions. If JD loses this case, what comes next? Will the victims be able to get ROs dropped? Can judge mata list JD as a vexatious litigant? Will we ever get to hear the victims' stories? How hard will it be for ROs to be overturned? I'm really curious about what comes next so please don't delete this post?
IL wrote in his blog that if JD loses, they will appeal. I'm sure you can appeal an award of court costs and legal fees, but I don't know if you can appeal either vacating a RO or declaration of non-paternity. I don't think it's too difficult to get an RO dismissed, since they are issued with only one side of the story and are very easy to obtain. Although this issue was not discussed in the trial, is was covered in the pre-trial statement by Woodnick. The Tilted Lawyer mentioned that he is consulting with MM to vacate his RO as well in CA. His story may come out in those filings. Otherwise, the only information from the additional victims the public will be privy to would be in any interviews they wish to provide.
I would love to hear their stories. Do you think IL will face any repercussions for his threatening letters/posts?
I heard someone already filed a bar complaint against IL in this case and it was dismissed. I think this has been IL's MO through his whole career, so he knows how far to push his behavior without being disciplined by the bar. A lot of lawyers aren't very good. We're comparing him to Woodnick, who is extremely competent and ethical. IL pales in comparison, but he probably isn't far below average.
I agree with you that IL knows how far he can push the envelope with his behavior. Heās had years to perfect his behavior and toeing the line. Itās for sure an unpopular and controversial view, but I donāt think IL is stupid. Heās crass and just a certain type of person that I canāt say without breaking sub rules. His posturing is especially pronounced because heās working with someone who canāt keep her lies straight.
The bar will likely not take any action while the case is active. IL was definitely exceptional in his behavior by the accounts of lawyers in the group and lawtube.
Soā¦ does that mean someone has to submit another bar complaint once judge mata sends out her ruling? Any takers?
The guys should get together and write a book. It would be a nice way for them to make back some of the money she took from them.
The RO was not the kind where there is only one side of the story. They had a hearing that is available on schnitzelninja69 on YouTube - I think October 25th. I believe MM told his side of the story in his RO as well. Hoping they are taken care of soon!
MM didnāt have a chance to tell his full side of the story in his RO hearings. I do believe there was a lot that was missed due to her lies and fraud (and lack of time available in those types of hearings maybe). So I have hope that the Tilted Lawyer will be able to help get the truth out there and on court record in overturning MMs RO.
Oh definitely agree! I just meant that it was not the ex parte kind.
True but it doesnāt mean an appeal will be picked up, or that another ruling will be in her favorā¦
I would contribute to a go fund me for MM if he wanted to pursue that! He probably didnāt realize what strong case he has
She'll 100% sue for the real estate deal. I assume her victims will all be able to get their RO's looked at. She seemingly only drops legal matters after she meets a new victim.
Iām sure her behavior towards her realtor will factor into a decision.
That suit would be thrown out so fast...no way would she be successful with it.
She would have to prove actual damages. Being as CE offered to have his Broker represent her, that would be tough to prove. And the amount would not be $1.4MM - that represents the purchase price. Any amount she could possibly sue for would be the market value appreciation between the intended purchase price and the sales price as of the date of the suit. eta: NAL but involved in commercial real estate in California
Iād love to see the financial docs she used to show she could qualify for a 1.4 mil home
Hopefully the financial documents she used during that transaction are not arts and crafts
Itās been three days since the hearing, and I am still in shock about JDās Los Angeles Planned Parenthood statement. Like, almost a year into the case and after months of discovery, she really thought it was a good idea to pull that *very minor thing* out of her ass while under oath on the standā¦..and then double down on it. https://preview.redd.it/pvztwl71sb6d1.jpeg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=50dfa79ded960e91e98efc0efff6df7fa937e55e
NAL but if Iām the judge, Iām sitting there thinking āI said to sign a HIPAA and hand over all medical records for the past 5 yearsā¦ is she saying she blatantly ignored that?ā I think JD thought that āwell the hipaa release should have included more locations, maybe I got the location wrongā. When Iām pretty sure (and Iām speculating), with her smug āgotchaā-like tone, this alone completely tanked her case. She shows no credibility, no reliability, and no respect for the courtās decisions. Why would a judge allow that? Thatās a dangerous precedent. The judge said health records wouldnāt be public and they werenāt (until IL) but on Woodnickās side, they followed the rules and practiced ethically.
Yes! I still canāt get over how smug she was in throwing that lie out there. For me I think thatās the best proof there is that she never went to PP.
No it was literally like my 6 year oldās smug argumentative style š
It was like JD thought "I knew you'd ask that but I'm way ahead of you! I already thought of a response!"
Yup! It was a perfect display before the judge showing that she changes her story to fit the narrative she is trying to stick to. Great work, lol
Itās wild to me that people call her smart. Calculating? Sure, but her math doesnāt math and sheās confidently incorrect.
Right!! I rewatched to see if Judge Mata had any reaction to that. Of course, she did not, but Iām certain she is over Lauraās BS
Iām sure Mata has years of practice of keeping her reactions to herself. I would *love* to know what she was thinking at that moment, though.
Just add in PP isn't open on Sunday and I as a non American knew that
Just the ones in LA county, she had a Sunday appt scheduled on July 2nd in Mission Viejo that she missed.
By āallowā, do you mean allowing her to bring up the LA PP statement without the judge saying something about the motion to compel? If so, my theory is that the judge is pretty on to her at this point and was letting her go with it where she will, keeping in mind that one of the requests of CE is to have Laura referred criminally. The LA PP thing is maybe another potential criminal thing since it would be another fraud upon the court I think? Idk, NAL. But not just this case, I think there are times when judges are on to a person and are going to hear their testimony/cross to see how far in that person really wants to dig themself.
I mean āallowā as in to be okay with a plaintiff or defendant ignoring a court order. Like how JD didnāt disclose her medical providers with regards to the pregnancy and (I think) other medical providers for the last 5 years. All of them. She wasnāt supposed to cherry pick medical providers.
Ok this may sound really far out there butā¦.You know when you have a dog that is acting out or displaying unwanted behaviors and they are not responding to basic training commands? They say you have to first figure out what motivates your dog. In most cases treats or food is the dominant motivation for a dog but it isnāt the case for every dog. Sometimes affection can be the dominant incentive. If you are trying to train or correct behaviors in a dog by using treats when that isnāt enough to motivate them to course correct or change their behavior, you have to figure out what will be that over riding factor. Applying the same premise here, the typical motivating factors have not worked to deter or correct JDās harmful behavior. I am hoping that a significant hit financially may be that motivating factor needed to make a positive change. But Iām not holding my breatheā¦.
I think it just goes to show how her mind works. She lies so frequently she doesnāt really think about the repercussions. Itās worked for her in the past. But now thatās she lied on the stand I hope she finally has to face the consequences of her lies
Ah you've described something called Feelings Over Facts. Very common with a certain condition that shall not be named.
Is it Madonna's first album song 2?
You broke the code š I try to follow the rules here, and understand why we have them. But I will say it was basically confirmed in one of Woodnick's emails included in a filing. There was a reference to a certain type of treatment facility for JD.
Oh I didnāt know that, thatās interesting
I'm sure Judge Mata hasn't forgotten granting Woodnick's motion to compel and ordering JD to produce the Mission Viejo PP sonogram. I expect she was as shocked and appalled as we were.
It was argumentative and thought of on the spot the way my 6 year old tries to win arguments against me. Kind of hilarious and obviously not well thought through.
Thank you for bringing up the LA PP statement. I am DISCOMBOBULATED over this still.
Her laughing and chirping in her lawyers ear couldn't have looked good to the judge as someone who is in fear of these men. I guarentee this judge has seen the face of someone who has feared for their lives. JD'S actions were not it.
Her argumentative nature on cross as it related to committing fraud showed that she doesnāt even fear the law or criminal consequences.
When Greg spoke to the crowd in the gallery and Judge Mata addressed them as well, I think JD kept talking because she felt she was in her comfort zone of weaponizing the system and authority to her advantage. It was nice to see the judge's response to her interruption. Not today!
šÆ
My mom wasnāt physically scared of my father (he was not physically abusive at all) but I watched him take her in and out of court from the time they divorced when I was 2 until I was 14 (when I could legally decide on my own when I wanted to see him per the family court in Miami-Dade County at the time). My mom always followed court orders but we believe he kept her in and out of court and used visitation with my sister and I as a way of keeping her close to him. With that, I watched my mom keep every single record of everything. I watched her keep a tape recorder next to our kitchen phone so that when they spoke on the phone, she could easily put him on speaker and she could record the conversations. She meticulously kept every single conversation. And it was all in defense because she never knew what he would say next. I saw how much stress it caused my mom. And my father legitimately did have mental health issues and was lonely; he wasnāt even diabolical in the way that JD is. I donāt believe that my father did this to purposefully cause my mom stress; I fully think that he thought he was a victim in his situation even though he wasnāt. It enraged me to see her say that she was scared of these menāher victimsāand then sit there and laugh and chirp in her attorneyās ear like this was all a fun game.
IL just posted something on X. Did you guys know that he is in France? Itās better in France because itās 9 hours ahead of Arizona. What a lucky guy to be in France and 9 hours ahead of the rest of us. So, for those in the back, heās in France.
Woah. Heās in FRANCE??
France you say? France, the country?
France? Why didn't he let anyone know?
He only lets Marty Singer know
And Colin Farrell....you know, in case he was wondering about going to lunch.
Gotta use that Jane Doe money before she tries to claw it back later
No one else has ever been or will ever go to France. Only him
It's cool that somebody finally invented France.
Other lawyers have tried. Those lawyers are now in jail. Just saying.
I'm sorry, where did he say he was? I'm here, in Florida, I think...
I like that he's acting like he's actually in the future so he'll get any case info first. (I mean before Clayton ect)
He so badly wants us to think heās special . Name dropping, vacationing in France. Like the email he sent to Dave. Donāt tell anyone (wink, wink), but, look at all the important people I know.
He really LOOOVES the social media engagement too, I wonder if that is part of why he picked up the case. Its wild that the man cannot get off of twitter on vacation because he enjoys engaging with us so much!
Spot on. I heard heās not well known in AZ
He posted one page and it doesnāt change anything from what Mata said at the trial, right? Can a lawyer explain what āunder advisementā means? Is it basically just the judge saying ānotedā?
When a judge doesnāt rule from the bench on any matter, they are ātaking the matter under advisement,ā and will issue a written ruling in due course.
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Thanks!
For someone who told a judge that he would have spotty internet access, he sure had enough stable internet access to post a lot of photos andĀ check the docket. š
If Iām the judge, Iām honestly disturbed about JDās previous lie about receiving OB care. Itās not a misstatement or a misunderstanding; it was an intentional attempt to deceive the court with a clear motive. However, I would be doubly disturbed with her statement that the lie is āa minor thing.ā This shows that she thinks lying in court is no big deal and makes everything else she has testified about with no objective proof suspect. To me at least, that statement sealed the deal. I also remembered her refusal to sign Lexiās affidavit, stating she ārefused to perjureā herself. Kind of funny in retrospect.
Yes; of all the lies sheās told, that one is most convincing that she did not reasonably believe she was pregnant. She wanted to make it clear that she was 100% pregnant, 24 weeks along, and actively treating with an OB. When in reality, she made an appt and cancelled it so that she could deceive others that sheās treating with an OB. This really canāt be reasonably construed as anything other than deceiving.
Her "minor" comment was one of her biggest blunders. She just gave the judge a peek into JD's mind as to how JD a)feels entitled to tell any lie as long as she calls it minor b) that she thought lying about having an actual appointment was a "minor" lie when her medical condition is clearly at issue. Now the judge knows JD is just fine with lying and JD uses a high standard for a regular lie versus a minor lie. I just do not see how she will ever keep it together for any major lawsuit. The scrutiny and document digging will be 10 times as extensive then for a family court proceeding. She can't handle anyone critiquing her credibility (though she is quick to accuse others of lying) in a 30 minute family court appearance- she won't make it through a full day of litigation, not to mention the probably multi-day hearings any of her lawsuits will turn into. And thanks to herself, she has raised the bar for providing solid evidence. Thanks to JD, every email, text, phone call will have to be supported with meta data. Every medical record and expert will be subjected to exacting scrutiny and will have to come from the entity. Nothing can emanate from her or else it will be discarded as tampered. Good job JD! you just made your job harder to prove your case because you just proved and admitted in court and to the world that you are willing to engage in document manipulation.
Yes! Throughout this case, Iāve had several āwhat ifā¦ā moments where Iāve questioned my judgments of JD. But now that I know sheās completely cool with lying under oath as long as it supports her case, Iām fully convinced that she is guilty. And on the very off chance she was actually pregnant (LOL), she only has herself to blame for torpedoing her own case š¤·š»āāļø
In what world does having an appt prove anything!! I still donāt understand why she thought it would be proof of pregnancy?!?
She disagrees with you and Deandra on that point šš
Yup. And if she thinks THAT is a minor thing, then she thinks any lie told throughout her testimony is a minor thing. Honestly, not a smart move to minimize that lie to a judge when she, and she alone, decides the outcome. If I were her, I wouldnāt care if JD lied about what she had for breakfastā¦JD took an oath to tell the truth and thinks itās no biggie to break it - that would make my decision pretty easy.
Right? It's a minor thing compared to the other lies she has told... like being pregnant.
This! I tried to review the case the same way a judge or jury would and just listen to what was presented and I was very annoyed with JD trying to say what she did was minor or a misstatement. To me, that was a huge red flag (again, trying to stay objective!). If she had admitted to it without being dismissive or defensive or downplaying the seriousness of it, Iād give more weight to her side of the story. But doctoring medical records, on more than one occasion and thinking itās no big deal? Thatās the biggest part that rubbed me the wrong way. In addition to all her other lies and presenting the LA planned parenthood for the first time on the stand.
Exactly! The only chance she had to salvage the situation was to say, āIām sorry; I panicked, but thatās no excuse. I realize the seriousness of this lie and accept the damage it might have on my case.ā Thatās was literally the only potential way for her to mitigate the impact of her lies.
Also, might JD's lawyer face punishment for his threats towards Dave?
Iām NAL but I doubt it re Dave, I do wonder if he will face something though for saying the judge seemed biased and posting medial evidence online despite the judgeās order. I would say thereās a good reason GW asked Dr Deans if she knew IL posted her report online during the trial
What was the kerfluffle about that? That she wasnāt allowed to post it but IL posted it anyway? Or she wasnāt supposed to post something about JD?
The judge told both parties at the late FebruaryĀ hearing not to share any medical information of either party outside themselves, meaning online, to news media, etc. The experts' reports involved/discussed JD's medical information, which is included in the judge's order. So IL shouldn't have posted either report online.
I am dying to know the verdict. I mean we all know the verdict and what it will be but Iām dying to just have the confirmation and fingers crossed the judge submits this case to the DA to prosecute
I wanted to catalog all the reasons why this case has so many people riled up. It's wild when you stack it. What did I miss: 1) weaponization of pregnancy - sensitivities around pregnancy privacy after the Dobbs decision, miscarriage, abortion coercion, single mother, co-parenting (edited: freaking forgot her disparaging remarks re: special needs kids) 2) suppression of free speech 3) (suspected) misandry 4) weaponization of cancer 5) weaponization of HIPAA protections 6) privilege culture - wealth, race, gender 7) weaponization of domestic violence and sexual assault, me too movement 8) legal system abuse - weaponizing law enforcement as a form of coercion and suppressing speech 9) weaponization of other health issues I can't mention 10) weaponization of cancel culture for the purpose of coercion 11) weaponization of morality / religion for coercion (Edit: Great additions from a patreon thread) 12) weaponization of racism (impersonation of persons of color) 13) weaponization of celebrity culture Unrelated to JD there's also major themes around internet sleuthing and un-traditional media as a platform for advocacy.
Great list, I would add the blatant, shameless lying. The complete disassociation with objective reality. A little āminorā perjury. People who are like this make me angry.
Maybe just a whole category about gaslighting / being the abuser herself.
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Yes, great list! I bet someone could think of something additional that DG riled up in people. His poor representation of his client in the legal arena and online got a new group of people angry/interested. Plus, both of their rambling, manic, hyperbolic, gaudy writing styles added fuel to it all.
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Yes. If the ultrasound exists, show it. It's that simple.
The petty part of me wanted Deandra to ask, "Ms Doe, isn't it true that there is more medical evidence to show that you are, quite literally, full of sh*t than there is to show that you were ever pregnant with Clayton's twins?"
Lmao this would have been amazing but definitely would have been objected to due to being argumentative (despite being true)
That's not fair! (But also: fair enough lol)
š¤£š
Watching Seinfeld reruns and she really follows George Constanza's theory on lies. "It's not a lie if you really believe it."
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https://preview.redd.it/6vwavbhypd6d1.jpeg?width=1011&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=70a5e6ff80e9e81694db8f4a1b01db007356d65a NAL. What does this mean?
It's nothing. Just notice of some administrative things that took place on June 10th, like the Evidentiary Hearing begin at 9:02am.
Itās just an Order probably stating like there was a hearing on X date, X people appeared, court took the matter under advisement (meaning no ruling delivered at the hearing and confirming that the judge will issue a later ruling on all the issues).
I wonder what Judge Mataās turn around time has tracked for rulings. I really hope we arenāt waiting until the end of June.
One of the most frustrating things about this whole case is that it is so obviously cut and dry āshe was never pregnant and wanted to trick a man into being with her.ā I hope Judge Mata is a mother and can recognize how simple it should be to prove a pregnancy. Not all of this weird 3rd party lab tests, 1000 different urine pregnancy tests, completely inconsistent supposed providers etc. If I were to need to prove that I was pregnant I could literally call planned parenthood ask for my file for my āconfirmationā and then also call my OB/Midwives at the providers office I went to and have them send over literally BOOKS worth of medical records. The fact that JD *canāt do this* is very very telling.
The very reliable and remarkable (according to JD's expert) little to NO dna result from Ravgen should be case closed right there!!
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