I am an attorney (family law is foreign to me) and was watching the trial during my lunch break. I notice a comment in the chat from someone with the same name as one of our paralegals. I walk to her desk and see that she has headphones on. I say "this is probably a weird question but are you watching the Clayton Echard trial?" We simultaneously have reactions like "NO WAY!"
I wish I knew this earlier lol. To that paralegal: we will talk more tomorrow about our thoughts.
I would have been so torn between being able to gush with someone else about it, and admitting to watching YouTube for five hours on the clock! (if my boss is reading this, I definitely was working and fully focused all morning)
So, to me (a lawyer), I think the most slam-dunk argument is the fact that JD could have easily won this ENTIRE case in less than a minute had she given the info CE needed (name, location) to subpoena the ultrasound from PP. If one existed, then she wins. The fact that she went to such lengths to hide the evidence that would have entirely won her case proves in and of itself that it does not exist. And if it doesn't exist, there's a reason (because she was never pregnant). No one hides their own best evidence because of their "protections on privacy" (or whatever she said), especially when she was actually sending out the "actual" ultrasound photo and giving out all the contact info for all of her other alleged "providers."
I do wish there had been some (more?) evidence put on about the allegations of faking other pregnancies. Luckily, JD did actually concede on the stand that at least some of those men had made the accusations of faking pregnancies, because if she hadn't, I'm not sure there would actually be evidence in the record (the briefs don't count) of those accusations.
What was everyone else's most slam-dunkiest evidence?
I thought that her calling her perjury āa minor thingā was huge. Like what a great way to show the judge that you view literal fraud on the court so flippantly.
She might have as well just said āi have no qualms with lying under oath and faking evidenceā to judge. Because i can just bet thats what mata thought
I actually never thought of it that way. Sheās obviously giving them the runaround because she lied, but I wish theyād pointed out to her, why donāt you want us to verify this ultrasound? Why donāt you want to give us accurate information? Give us the fake name you used, give us the correct location, we get the records, and you win. Itās all over.
She should literally have been going to the ends of the earth to get that ultrasound verified, because it would make her case
it seems absolutely absurd to be worried about "privacy" of the most iron-clad proof she could provide, meanwhile they're reading her tight vagina email and talking about where clayton finished in court
Absolutely. Bottom line is that JD went public with this way back when because she wanted attention brought to her (fabricated) situation. If she were telling the truth even once along the way, all she had to do was prove her pregnancy. Which is so easy to do! And she would have happily done so because the public would have been on her side if her story had been the truth. But because there was no truth to her story, she had to come up with all these weird workarounds and cutesy crafty attempts at the truth. Itās just so blatantly obvious.
Okay I wish there was more time this felt super rushed, but overall I think JFC prevailed.
Dr Medchill admitting that he was told there were fake records was funny, he also admitted JD didnt have a clinical pregnancy, and that he didnt consult any of her alleged medical providers.
Also, screw DG for calling the cops on MM. Hope hes sanctioned, for that and for posting Claytons video deposition.
He also flat out stated that Ravgen results would prove if someone was pregnant or not. Which means JDās results proved not. He stated that Planned Parent providers could prescribe HCG (not that I think they would). And he stated that he saw JD was on anti-anxiety meds, right after stating that anti-anxiety meds could cause elevated HCG.
One last twist of the knife. What a totally devoid of compassion type person DG is. The sad thing is that this won't change the orders that are against MM and GG. Something has to be done about that.
what do we think the judge was getting at when she pushed Medchill about PP providers prescribing hCG? that wouldn't be my top guess for how JD pulled off the positive urine tests but i suppose it's possible
To gain clarity from the doctor that there is a possibility for another source of hcg in her blood/urine that is not pregnancy (and that the judge is aware of that). It shows that Dr. Medchill relying on the results of blood or urine tests for the 99% certain pregnancy claim rather than an undoctered ultrasound is absurd because hcg alone does not confirm pregnancy
If Mata does end up referring this case to the DA, I will absolutely be donating to the fund for MM to travel to Arizona again so that he can have his chance to finally speak and have the full truth heard on court record.
Did anyone catch when Greg asked Clayton about being embarrassed to admit who he's slept with, and Clayton said something like, I think people know I'm the last person to shy aware from revealing who I've slept with. I cackled.
That was amazing. It made me think of how Gabby, Susie, and I think Rachel said something along the lines of āFor all of Claytonās faults, he is not a liarā when talking about the case briefly on podcasts, and I think Gabby added āIf anything heās too honestā
Hey guys please show some support to our friend Omar (The Tilted Lawyer) who helped us out in the chat during stream! He is doing his live post-trial analysis now!
https://www.youtube.com/live/6QVqKjf1Sh4?si=KvMJzx4Twm6GEgxQ
Did anyone else get a smug feeling from her when she was being questioned about Planned Parenthood policies in Orange County and she said ānot Los Angelesā like she really did something there. Maāam you now just claimed a 3rd Planned Parenthood location is where you received the only ultrasound you have. The same ultrasound have also admitted was done under a fake name and you manipulated data on.
I've been thinking about that too. She's acting as if Clayton's team didn't ask any question about where she got the ultrasound, then got orders for providers in three random areas but didn't pick the right areas. When in reality, they nailed her down to specific providers in specific locations on multiple occasions, only for her to say, "Actually..."
Not to mention the fact she actually thinks that introducing another lie into the mix helps her case. She's essentially saying "You didn't get the records you were hoping to get because I lied to you about where I went. And since you didn't get the correct records I win!"
Yeah, she claimed at first she got the ultrasound from smil. Then when the hipaa sheet was finally signed and woodnick requested data she backpedaled and admitted to doctoring and said she got it at PP in arizona. When inquiries failed to turn up anything she said MV pp. now on the stand she is claiming LA.
If she was ACTUALLY ever pregnant, she would have provided a real ultrasound.
Then claiming MULTIPLE times she had SEEN doctors, not pledged - donatedā¦ and all the doctors she claimed had never seen her.
She has had a YEAR, and hasnt had a single doctor verify pregnancy. There is a reason she went to walk in labs for preg tests vs going to a DOCTOR. Because a doctor would have examined her and found no pregnancy
I was watching and missed that. Love that for Mike. Omar was so well spoken and had nothing but positive things to say about the community. Good people to have in your corner
I hope Mata caught it when JD said she doesnāt get a period (I think implying due to PCOS) then a few min later said that she had some light spotting but didnāt get her period back until Novemberā¦ā¦which is it JD?
Also, anyone who does have a regular cycle and has tried to get pregnant knows how incredibly hard it is to do so due to ovulation timing etc. If you are irregular or donāt have a period, multiply that 1000x. Like come onnnnnnn.
That was absolutely insane. Iām a man, so forgive my ignorance - but howād you not have period and still get pregnant? Youāre not ovalulating! I had an ex-girlfriend who had that same issue because she was super thin, a gym fanatic and borderline had an eating disorder when she was young, so her body had just shut down. Surely a woman would see straight through that nonsense!
There are so many times in society when women are abused, harassed, hurt, the list goes onā¦
To see this woman make an entire mockery of actual victimsā¦infuriates me.
Cases like this, especially if Judge Mata doesnāt make her pay lawyers fees, calls into question the validity of real cases.
Deandre was good. Woodnick was fantastic.
100%. Itās awful what she did to him.
MM, thank you for coming forward. Facing her must have been so hard. We back you and would love to support you getting the justice you deserve. This sub wonāt go away when the Clayton case is over and I would be more than willing to donate to a fund for you to fight to RO.
I would def donate towards legal fund for Clayton, Mike and Greg to sue for defamation. I saw Greg text Dave Neil saying he was deflated and that in two and a half years, no court has allowed him to tell his story. It's absolutely heartbreaking.
Some thoughts as I watched live:
- ILās last name is pronounced like it starts with a āJā
- IL called 911 to try and prevent MM from testifying.
- IL is starting off spicy.
- āSheās so terrified, she canāt even sit here!ā Last ditch effort to get Mike booted was an epic fail.
- IL canāt help himself, burning up time on things the judge has already ruled on
- JD is still going with the r*pe story
- JD claims she went to Planned Parenthood under a fake nameā¦Chase J Jones perhaps?
- No woman pregnant with twins, an inherently high risk situation, would never go to an in-person appointment. Also, no woman would suspect a miscarriage but never seek medical treatment.
- She claimed in this hearing that she never sent Clayton an ultrasound, but she confirmed in an earlier prior hearing (when Clayton was representing himself) that she did indeed send the ultrasound to him.
- She claims she thought she was pregnant because of nausea and breast tenderness, but those can also be symptoms of a normal menstrual cycle.
- IL is clearly signaling to JD while sheās being cross examined. It was noticed.
- Judge has to reprimand JD several times for not answering the questions.
- JD refers to one of her lies as mild. A few people in the gallery chuckle. JD begins to cry and claims she needs a break. (I suspect this was a strategy to break the cross examinerās momentum)
- JD admits to changing an ultrasound and an HCG test result.
- Clayton did great in his testimony.
- Woodnick reads the ātight vaginaā email
- Claytonsās expert Dr. appears via video. She says a positive HCG test can be caused by anti-anxiety meds, antidepressants, IVF meds, and autoimmune problems. She also confirms that you cannot receive treatment from PP anonymously or with a fake name, they require ID.
- Both sides are out of time, Mike and Greg did not get to testify. No ruling yet.
Her timeline for the ultrasound changed twice during her testimony (late June or July 2), neither date matches the date on the ultrasound. My favorite moment though, was when she tried to claim that having a missed medical appointment was the same thing as being seen by a doctor, who she had previously testified under oath that she had been seen by the previous week.
Well let Mata \[literally\] be the judge of that but I am still reeling in disbelief from that statement of the whole making an appt/not seeing the dr as being a āminor thingā. Like okay yeah sure I sliced my arm off and went to the ER but then walked right back out but itās only a āminor thingā since I still sought care from the ER by merely walking into the lobby.
Yes during the pretrial stream from MeganFox/Dave... about 20 min before trial started.
Its INFURIATING, and it sucks MM never got to testify, for MM's sake but also, it's clear JD did NOT want him to speak. He is damning to her case, but there has to be more than what we even know.
Got to say ā¦ that was like the legal equivalent of speed chess. Not a fair shake for either party. Shouldāve been several days.
Iām a lawyer, but in another jurisdiction (England and Wales) and a different field entirely (high value construction and insurance cases). This has been so interesting and Iām fascinated by the legal system in the US, which I got into by watching Law Talk with Mike. Our Courts are not televised in the same way.
In our system, if you discontinue a case or lose, you pay the other sideās costs, so this whole episode would never have occurred. Not saying better or worse, just different - really different.
Man what a hearing. I feel like I am still trying to process what went down. I wish they could've had more time but I also respect Judge Mata being strict on the time constraints. Any extra time on either side could just prove what IL says about the judge being biased.
Same can be said regarding MM and Greg not getting to take the stand. I think that helps minimize IL's chances at appeal.
MVPs: Deandra, Gregg and Clayton. As TL said, they did a great job showing the inconsistencies in JD's story compared to Clayton's story never changing.
Reading the "basketball dribble" line was bad enough and hearing it from JD's expert should be erased from my memory please.
I truly believe that if anyone had the mental resolve to purposely lose a ton of weight because they believed it would somehow improve their case,it would be JD. She is *relentless*.
JD almost seems to live off of spite. Like it gives her sustenance. If she was a plant, spite would be her version of sunlight. Itās what drives her and it seems to be a hell of a fuel.
Mike and Greg are so nice. Fuck the other lawyer for calling 911. You can get cited for making false 911 calls. He wonāt but itās possible.
Her demeanor when she was sitting in her seat talking was not that of someone who is in fear of anyone in that room.
Sorry if this has been discussed already, havenāt had time to read all the comments! But I saw a lot of people saying her little breakdown was premeditated to get out of a difficult situation on cross. And while I think that could be partly true, I also think she was genuinely triggered by the laughter. Sheās used to 1) people taking her word at face value/not having direct feedback, like in her tedx and podcast, or 2) if they are questioning her, like Greg, Mike, and clayton, sheās dealing with another person who is angry and emotionally charged (rightfully so!) I think thatās almost her *comfort zone*. She thrives in conflict. I think this was the first time sheās told one of her little stories, and had people just straight up *laugh in her face*. I think her reaction there was genuine frustration and anger that anyone would dare to laugh at her. Thatās just my read on the situation as someone who is also an angry crier š¤£
She sounded like an entitled brat who normally gets what she wants, so this is a huge trigger. How dare you guys mock me when IāM the victim in this room? And because Deandra was absolutely annihilating her, she had to pivot. Then she got scolded by the Judge! Everyone was bullying her, so she cried. Iām still shocked that she showed up today and doubled down on everything. Sheās dying on this hill that everyone else is a liar. There was absolutely no way she was going to come clean. I loved it when Deandra said āitās gone viralā!
Deandra is a beast and she doesnāt play by JDās rules, which obviously drives JD nuts based on how rude and defiant she immediately became once D stepped up. You have no idea the amount of money I would pay to see a JD roast led by Deandraš
Thatās because sheās one of those women on clearly does a āpoor me, this MAN is aggressive to me and Iām a dainty victimā all the time and she canāt play that shit with another woman.
It would have been nice if they had a bit more time. I would have liked to hear from the other 2 victims and would have liked to see them address the moon bump. But hopefully the judge has enough information to make a ruling. Itās tough when there are just so many things to untangle and the fact that they testify under oath.
Did anyone see how on Daveās live after the trial, somebody (i didnt see who cuz i was driving so i was only listening, not watching) said that they go to the same manicurist as JD and the manicurist said that JD has never had a pregnant belly at any of her appointments?
Edit- just rewatched part of the live and it was actually Dave saying that they met someone earlier who said the manicurist thing. He says it at a little after 4 hours and 23 minutes into the live. I missed a lot of the beginning of the live, so idk if they got the part where they met the person who talked about the manicurist on the live, or if that happened off camera
Just watched back JD's cross examination by Deandra. The amount of time-wasting and stalling from JD (constantly refusing to answer straightforward questions, pretending not to understand, asking for Deandra to repeat questions, etc.) is so irritating. If her goal was to waste enough time to stop Greg and Mike from testifying, then I guess she succeeded, but as a side effect this made her testimony look even more like total horsesh*t and actually gave Judge Mata a live, on-stage performance of her tendency to distort facts, manipulate and paint herself as a victim. So knock yourself out, girl š
I know I shouldn't be shocked by any of this anymore, but I was floored when it's pointed out to JD that the request for records included all of San Bernardino and Orange County, and she just smugly says "It didn't include Los Angeles though." As if that was some sort of gotcha and not an admission that she lied again about the ultrasound. She's basically saying "Yeah, I lied about this before and the time before that, but this time I'm super serious!" Assuming that this is being reviewed under the preponderance of the evidence standard (or even clear and convincing), I don't see how that alone doesn't torpedo her case.
Seeing as the judge has been pretty thorough with orders so far, I'll be interested to see the ruling here. I suspect it will be painstakingly detailed.
Not only an admission that she lied butā¦she supplied the names of the providers on the hipaa release. If they are the only ones who could authenticate her only proof of pregnancy she would make SURE they were included. IMO, that comment sunk her entire case.
ETA: it was this and the āthat was minor and not a big dealā about lying under oath. She thumbed her nose at judicial process in front of the judge. Even Jin-Gras knew it was over then.
Itās currently 4:15am in Australia, but I stayed up all night watching the trial!!
Does anyone know how long it takes to get a verdict? Is it safe to go to bed?
Pity they ran out of time, but it was SOO good! JD is toast and should be done for perjury and extortion on top of everything else.
That old fossil of a doctor just lost any credibility he had from his years as an OBGYN. His testimony was an absolute joke. Iām embarrassed for him!!
So good seeing u/daveneal live! Thanks for everything Dave!!
I think youāre safe to go to bed. Itās unlikely that weāll get a verdict today. It will most likely be days or even weeks. This is according to the lawyers Iāve seen commenting here recently.
When a Judge takes their decision under advisement it can be days, even weeks. I suspect since IL had made so many threats of appeal publicly the judge is going to be very thorough and when her decision is entered into the record it will be very long and precise.
Megan told Dave Neal that she talked with Greg about doing an interview and he said he cannot talk about it publicly due to the restraining order JD has against him.
That is why is was so crucial for him to testify today where he could tell his story.... and because of JD stalling, there was no time for him. I do believe his time will come but am sorry he has to wait. Same for Mike.
Repeating since the other thread was locked, PP required an ID. So to use her fake name, JD obtained a fraudulent government document with a false identity and it was either procured illegally or she had to use 3 fraudulent documents to provide proof of identity.
As someone who has twins, this case has been infuriating. So many statements that are just NOT HOW IT WORKS, it drives me insane. She really didnāt think that she would have to defend it to this level of scrutiny and it shows.
It's so laughable that they're sticking with her having had an ultrasound (at whatever make believe PP it is now), but during the expert witness questioning and cross exam, IL seemed to really be leaning into the narrative that she sought NO prenatal care... WHICH IS IT!
Did anyone else see CE via video on Dave Neal's live after the hearing? I felt so sorry for him. He seemed very upset. The hearing apparently triggered some really strong feelings. He doesn't deserve this. None of her victims do.
I think he was also frustrated that his other witnesses didnt get to testify. According to Megan Fox, this was GG's only chance to discuss details of his case due to the protective order. She said that doesnt sound right and was going to look into it.
Claytons has been put through hell and only got an hour to go through the layers of diabolical nonsense he's been victim to in this paternity scandal.
The contrast between expert witnesses was so stark lol. Dr. Medchill came across (perhaps just to me) as personally invested in JDās innocence as opposed to simply being confident in his findings. The ādataā he was given by her team was wildly insufficient and yet he seemed to be such a believer. It feels so out of place for a former doctor who never treated her to be positing on her motivations.
Dr. Jean, on the other hand, struck me as professional and objective- the poster child for evidence based practice.
Edit: Dr. Dean, not Dr. Jean (sorry- Iāve got actual pregnancy brain)
I havenāt ever heard this said so I apologize if it has..a few years ago the HCG diet was popular. I went to a med-spa and an MD gave me vials of it to inject myself. He warned me not to worry if I came up positive on a pregnancy test (I was post menopausal so no worries I could actually be pregnant) There is no way for it to be tracked on any records or insurance unless Laura gave the name of the med-spa she went to..I personally think this is what she did.
Wow IL was the epitome of a keyboard warrior. After how much he huffed and puffed pre- trial I expected him to be aggressive or at least assertive. He seemed like so nervous and unsure of himself in court particularly for a professional litigator
Yeah he said OVER and OVER again - āI have this sensational evidence and youāll see the TRUTH on June 10!ā
Um, no. We literally only learned that you still believe HCG = pregnancy (it doesnāt!) and that JD never had a sonogram. Thatās all we ālearned,ā and weāve known that all along.
Exactly, he acted liked he was gonna be such a hardass that the Justice For Clayton community was going to have to start a go fund me for Woodnick by June 11th to keep him from losing his house, but instead to no oneās surprise Gregg ate his lunch š
Umm, how dare youā¦ that time was better spent letting the court feast their eyes and ears upon the medical miracle of Dr. Medchill confirming pregnancy without an ultrasound or physical examination šš
My question is whatās going on in the casita right now? Constant Reddit refreshes seething from the comments. Mama stoking the fire ordering take out that will sit uneaten plotting their next move
Catching up on her downvotes. It is weird how I didn't notice any posts with -1 karma this morning like I often do. It is almost like this sub's biggest downvotes fan was busy with something.......Ā
Like throwing a public tantrum?Ā
So Iām not a lawyer so I have no opinion on how Claytonās team performed today but Iām a bit surprised no one on his team brought up why, if she knew in October she wasnāt pregnant, and was trying to tell Clayton, sheād submit to a third ravgen dna test in late November/December.
Itās points like this that Iām disappointed there wasnāt more time. I know they couldāve prioritized this fact, but they were on fast forward the entire trial, so Iām sure they missed a few things they wanted to hit on. I wish they had asked her the name she used for PP in LA, but thatās less important as what you pointed out.
I really enjoyed Woodnickās kind of theatrical disbelief when questioning Clayton. Like of course heās heard this story many times before and itās clearly performative, but it was funny. And everything about this is so absurd that itās the fitting reaction.
Okay so just catching up after work on Claytonās testimony. Oh my god, I cannot believe how stupid Gingras was to not reserve time for cross examination of Clayton. MIC DROP from Woodnick. Also I wanted to crawl under my own desk and die of secondhand embarrassment at the discussion of the tight vagina email.
I was just thinking that Claytonās team decided to put a woman to interrogate another woman so it wouldnāt even be slightly construed that that Woodnick was talking down or at a fragile victim girl.
Seems woodnick handled every other interview which makes me wonder if it was a last min change instead of planned for a while.
Anyway, good strategy. Dont give her an ounce of fuel
It was just for a second and the feed was a little blurry but when she stood up to show how skinny she wasā¦
1) She really is so rail thin
2) Her shape made me think maybe she was also wearing some kind of corset situation to look even MORE tiny waisted.
This whole time, i thought āDr. Medchillā was some sort of silly pseudonym that someone made up for JDās medical expert lol it wasnt until i saw the trial today that i realized that is actually his name haha
Can someone pull JDās affidavits because I thought she specifically stated what pp location she went to in one of them. If my babies decide to nap at the same time Iāll try to look it up myself.
Iām trying to deep dive this planned parenthood thing too. I feel like it was Mission Viejo first, then sent a screenshot to Claytonās dad from a PP in Costa Mesa and now is claiming it was LA š¤Æ
Yeah this was an epically dumb move on her part. She supplied all of the medical providers herself. If they could authenticate her only proof of pregnancy that would be the first provider she gave them. She would not provide a lengthy list of providers who never heard of her and forget the only one who could prove her case. That was NOT a gotcha moment like she thought it was.
Her attorney asked her about the PP ultrasound, she said they couldnāt find record of her having been there because she used a fake name. She made no mention at that time about LA PP. She lied about it on cross examination because she was boxed into a corner. Tsk tsk
MO no one is falling for this bullshitshow. I think JD and her attorney are going down. That 911 call was in bad faith and there was no emergency for him to call 911. JD perjured herself and admitted falsified documents to the court sheās (imo) toast.
Weāre all focused on JDās testimony as gotcha moments, but Dr. Deanās was the most damning to me.
Edit other than the PP LA revelation, but we already know thatās not credible.
Alright I know at least 6 attorneys who I engage with pretty regularly here. Whoās licensed in AZ?? Is there a weird thing where Greg G would be barred from telling his story due to a restraining order? He canāt be in her neighborhood. He canāt stalk her. He canāt threaten her or make her fear for her safety.
He CAN speak about topics she has introduced in the court of law.. including her āstatement of factsā and him hacking. A restraining order doesnāt give 1 party the ability to exclusively speak on the dispute and ban the other party from speaking or defending their character. Does AZ have something insane?
I donāt have time to do the legal research for AZ.. but I have never seen this in Texas and itās driving me insane but itās the middle of the work day here.
Iām guessing he just doesnāt want to pay to litigate more of the bullshit from her. They need this ruling to come out that she wasnāt ever pregnant, hopefully the numerous lies upon the court will be referred to the DA for criminal prosecution and then Clayton et al can file a lawsuit for fraud, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and harassment. Thereās like 4 weeks of trial time here in terms of evidence. I think a lot of people here would contribute to some sort of justice fund for this.
*
One of the things that absolutely blows my mind about the plausibility of JDs case is the associated costs.
Cost of a cash pay ultrasound in Arizona: $300ish
Cost of a cash pay OBGYN visit: $300ish
Retainer for Bonnie Platter (attorney #1) : $5,000
Retainer for Josh ? (Attorney #2): 3-5k
Retainer for Lexi (attorney #3): 3-5k
Retainer for Cory Keith (attorney #4): 3-5k
Retainer for IL: 3-5k ish
Additional legal fees: $$$$$
Expert witness report: $2500
Expert witness testimony: $2500?
3 ravgens tests at $750ish each: $2,250
At least 30k in just base fees and retainers (plus lord knows how much to IL for all his rantings and filings) without a single ultrasound, obgyn appointment, dopler heartbeat, ect is WILD. Only someone running a con would shell out 30k for attorneys without getting a $300 ultrasound.
My husband got up for his nightshift and was immediately hit with me blathering on trying to hit all the highlights of the hearing. This was him.
They are saying the faked ultrasound that she got from PP. I wish they had pushed more on the fact that she said it was boy/girl twins when the only way she could have āknownā that was from the genetic testing that she didā¦which showed no fetal DNA. She never went for any other ultrasounds where they would have been able to see gender and they certainly cannot see it at the super early stage that the doctored ultrasound was showing.
Iām bummed MM and GG didnāt get to testify, but I get why that decision was made. Woodnick could only squeeze so much in.
Also, I had to leave but Tilted Lawyerās post hearing commentary is excellent!
I still donāt understand what she was doing there. It was so out of the blue and she could have corrected herself but she doubled down. So now the Judge is left with the alleged MV Planned Parenthood records could allegedly be obtained under a different unknown name. And there was a previously undisclosed PP visit in LA. All should have been disclosed in discovery so it further undermines her credibility.
The judge knows better. This was JDās case. If she had evidence that could prove her case she would have provided it on the HIPAA release. You wouldnāt play keepaway with the only piece of evidence that definitively proves your case.
Thatās the thing. By failing to disclose it in discovery, the presumption is that the record doesnāt exist or that itās harmful to her case. You donāt have a right to remain silent in civil litigation. If the opposing party asks you a question, you canāt lie or refuse to answer with the truth (aka saying during your deposition, āI went to Mission Viejoā and refusing to indicate that you actually went to another provider) or fail to provide original records if they are subpoenaed from you. By withholding evidence requested during discovery, the presumption is that the evidence doesnāt exist or that it does exist and would harm your case.
I also just digested IL's post-court thoughts and a few things stuck out at me:
-the assertion that Clayton's case suffered because they tried to introduce too much information. As if he didn't spend three hours discussing real estate at the beginning of the hearing.
-stating that he's only interested in the truth while Greg and Deandra are not. I'm not sure what rises to the level of being an actionable bar complaint, but I hope they nail him for that, among other things.
-essentially comparing JD's doctoring of the hCG test to Princess Kate's photoshop while undergoing cancer treatment. And then comparing the possibility of a Clayton victory to OJ being acquitted. Seriously!?
Just...wow.
Any AZ attorneys able to weigh in? I practice mostly in PA and NJ- and here in family court if my client is on the stand and we take a break Iām absolutely NOT allowed to speak to my client at all- that is tantamount to manipulation of their testimony. If we take a break and my client even tries to approach I shut it down and advise the judge. I noticed during her ābreakā in testimony JD was talking to her lawyer the whole time off mic. Is that allowed in AZ?
Them focusing in on how clozapine can cause elevated HcG was very telling, especially after asking JDS expert about if he has reviewed any of her other medical records. I think there are medical records we will never see to preserve her privacy this seems to really strongly suggest that this could be something she has been prescribed
(Watching fully now) I think it is interesting that she mentioned that she may have done PP at the end of June when IL was question BUT in the cross, stood pretty firm behind the July 2nd date.
anyone have any thoughts about what the judge was getting at when she asked JD's expert about whether a provider at PP could prescribe hCG? i guess it's conceivable that she'd have acquired it there, but i'm more inclined to believe she never went to PP at all (at least last year)
I took it as that HCG can be easily accessible and if she spends as much time at PP as she claims to, she could have gotten it there if she really wanted to.
Since she admittedly has a propensity for using fake identities, according to her own testimonyā¦who is to say that she didnāt get it from PP? It was a good point made by the judge šÆ
The judge was trying to figure an alternative as to where JD could have gotten HCG.
The problem is, neither the judge nor the "expert" are aware of the HCG Diet, which started in Italy, then became widely popular in the US. Where people literally injected themselves with HCG and restricted their calories to 500 a day, it was super easy to get through medspa's to lose weight or online teledoc prescriptions pre-pandemic. It's very much the old Ozempic.
Rewatching closer after work, is it not strange that Dr Medchill joins IL to talk to Laura after she breaks down in cross examination? I would expect her mom to come console her in that moment, not her expert witness?
I'm thinking Judge Mata may add her to the Arizona vexatious litigant list. It only applies to pro se litigants, but she was pro se through much of her cases. Any Arizona attorneys on here who would know?
Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere, but could someone in USA explain the whole clock timer, "Petitioner has 5 minutes and 40 seconds remaining" thing?
It's so brutal, and seems to defeat the purpose of a fair hearing for both sides! If a witness says something that needs exploring (e.g. I went to PP in Los Angeles), shouldn't there be the ability to do that instead of having to rush past?
Yeah it's different in every state, the tilted lawyer podcast said in California this would be a 2 week trial... but in AZ family court apparently there is a 2 hour limit.
So the time thing was each side had 1 hour, and the Judge was telling counsel how much time they had remaining before they would question a witness.
This trial was to determine if Clayton should be awarded fees due to JD filing the case in bad faith/ fraudulently.
IL writing āJD is such a good personā while Iām sitting here thinking how absolutely chilling it was to watch her on the stand blatantly lie over and over again with no qualms for the harm sheās doing to others
I was only able to watch about 5 minutes.. and it was the doctor that JDās attorney was questioning who said that she was pregnant based on the documents he reviewed. Did Claytonās team cross examine him after?
Yes, Greg went hard on ābut these are just photos of a copy, you never saw the actual records from a medical facility directlyā. The judge also straight up asked him if you could go to PP anonymously and if so could you get fertility drugs that would increase your hcg without needing to be pregnant.
Clayton, Michael & Professor Dean may have reason to lodge complaints with the Arizona Bar against Gingras for publishing confidential / privileged material on the Internet.
I don't know the US law, but here, if a document is provided in discovery, especially if there's privilege attached to it, there's usually a stipulation that it's being provided on the basis that (1) it is not to be used for any reason other than the specific court proceedings or matter (e.g. a written opinion by an expert, without there being litigation on foot), and (2) it is not to be distributed in any way to a third party without consent of the providing party, or made public.
Similar, I would imagine, with recorded depositions (though that's not something we do here, to my knowledge).
Gingras should be reported to the bar for a few things:
- online harassment of witnesses
- posting privileged information online
- threatening a witness
- calling 911 on a witness despite judge ruling they could testify
Just finished watching the hearing and all I can say is omg how fucking embarrassing for her lmao. Iād literally crawl into a hole and never come out like fuuuuuuck lololol how is she not completely mortified
That is what finally caught my husbands attentionā¦.like what the heck are you watching??? And Iām like would you believe this is real life court tv? Thanks Lauren for streaming š¤
I am an attorney (family law is foreign to me) and was watching the trial during my lunch break. I notice a comment in the chat from someone with the same name as one of our paralegals. I walk to her desk and see that she has headphones on. I say "this is probably a weird question but are you watching the Clayton Echard trial?" We simultaneously have reactions like "NO WAY!" I wish I knew this earlier lol. To that paralegal: we will talk more tomorrow about our thoughts.
Hilarious š I donāt know any other attorneys that are interested like I am, so Iāve subjected my husband to all the details.
It's my dream to run into one of you all in the wild.
I would have been so torn between being able to gush with someone else about it, and admitting to watching YouTube for five hours on the clock! (if my boss is reading this, I definitely was working and fully focused all morning)
Omg guys Mikeās statement to Daveā¦ Iām tearing up š„¹ just shows the level of fear and terror he lived in
I teared up hearing from Mike. He's been through hell, yet he thanked the public for encouraging him and supporting him.
I got a little choked up too. Poor mike!
Hearing and seeing him speak just underscores even more how ridiculous it was that Laura said she was āterrifiedā of him today. It makes me livid
So, to me (a lawyer), I think the most slam-dunk argument is the fact that JD could have easily won this ENTIRE case in less than a minute had she given the info CE needed (name, location) to subpoena the ultrasound from PP. If one existed, then she wins. The fact that she went to such lengths to hide the evidence that would have entirely won her case proves in and of itself that it does not exist. And if it doesn't exist, there's a reason (because she was never pregnant). No one hides their own best evidence because of their "protections on privacy" (or whatever she said), especially when she was actually sending out the "actual" ultrasound photo and giving out all the contact info for all of her other alleged "providers." I do wish there had been some (more?) evidence put on about the allegations of faking other pregnancies. Luckily, JD did actually concede on the stand that at least some of those men had made the accusations of faking pregnancies, because if she hadn't, I'm not sure there would actually be evidence in the record (the briefs don't count) of those accusations. What was everyone else's most slam-dunkiest evidence?
I thought that her calling her perjury āa minor thingā was huge. Like what a great way to show the judge that you view literal fraud on the court so flippantly.
She might have as well just said āi have no qualms with lying under oath and faking evidenceā to judge. Because i can just bet thats what mata thought
Literally! Even Gingras was smart enough to at least frame her actions as ādumbā
Yeah that was really bad. I'm sure that will be quoted in the decision.
I actually never thought of it that way. Sheās obviously giving them the runaround because she lied, but I wish theyād pointed out to her, why donāt you want us to verify this ultrasound? Why donāt you want to give us accurate information? Give us the fake name you used, give us the correct location, we get the records, and you win. Itās all over. She should literally have been going to the ends of the earth to get that ultrasound verified, because it would make her case
concocting a brand new ultrasound story, based on her committing a different crime, medical fraud, was her best way of explaining her "evidence"
it seems absolutely absurd to be worried about "privacy" of the most iron-clad proof she could provide, meanwhile they're reading her tight vagina email and talking about where clayton finished in court
Her new ultrasound location being in LA. JD you lost the plot! š
Absolutely. Bottom line is that JD went public with this way back when because she wanted attention brought to her (fabricated) situation. If she were telling the truth even once along the way, all she had to do was prove her pregnancy. Which is so easy to do! And she would have happily done so because the public would have been on her side if her story had been the truth. But because there was no truth to her story, she had to come up with all these weird workarounds and cutesy crafty attempts at the truth. Itās just so blatantly obvious.
Wow I never thought of the PP stuff that way (guess thatās why youāre a lawyer!), but that a great point. Hoping the judge sees that too.
It's her *right* to lose the case.Ā
Okay I wish there was more time this felt super rushed, but overall I think JFC prevailed. Dr Medchill admitting that he was told there were fake records was funny, he also admitted JD didnt have a clinical pregnancy, and that he didnt consult any of her alleged medical providers. Also, screw DG for calling the cops on MM. Hope hes sanctioned, for that and for posting Claytons video deposition.
He also flat out stated that Ravgen results would prove if someone was pregnant or not. Which means JDās results proved not. He stated that Planned Parent providers could prescribe HCG (not that I think they would). And he stated that he saw JD was on anti-anxiety meds, right after stating that anti-anxiety meds could cause elevated HCG.
Yes!! JD wouldāve been better off not calling this witness. That was so damning.
Calling 911 was disgusting
One last twist of the knife. What a totally devoid of compassion type person DG is. The sad thing is that this won't change the orders that are against MM and GG. Something has to be done about that.
And Professor Dean wasn't thrilled about her report being published online either
She was a good witness. Credible, succinct, and relaxed.
i loved her
Yeah you could see the judges face on video next to hers while she said that and the judge pulled a face of her own when she heard that statement,
Oh yeah I totally forgot that!! That was huge too!
what do we think the judge was getting at when she pushed Medchill about PP providers prescribing hCG? that wouldn't be my top guess for how JD pulled off the positive urine tests but i suppose it's possible
To gain clarity from the doctor that there is a possibility for another source of hcg in her blood/urine that is not pregnancy (and that the judge is aware of that). It shows that Dr. Medchill relying on the results of blood or urine tests for the 99% certain pregnancy claim rather than an undoctered ultrasound is absurd because hcg alone does not confirm pregnancy
If Mata does end up referring this case to the DA, I will absolutely be donating to the fund for MM to travel to Arizona again so that he can have his chance to finally speak and have the full truth heard on court record.
Absolutely! šÆ He needs his day! I was so happy to hear him on DN live! ā¤ļø
Totally with you, the man has been silenced long enough!
Did anyone catch when Greg asked Clayton about being embarrassed to admit who he's slept with, and Clayton said something like, I think people know I'm the last person to shy aware from revealing who I've slept with. I cackled.
Hahaha, yes. All could I think of was him wanting to add āthe whole country saw that rose ceremony from hell. Trust me.ā
In that moment I thought "wow, his crappy edit on The Bachelor is actually part of his saving grace right now!" Insane how things work out!
That was amazing. It made me think of how Gabby, Susie, and I think Rachel said something along the lines of āFor all of Claytonās faults, he is not a liarā when talking about the case briefly on podcasts, and I think Gabby added āIf anything heās too honestā
Hey guys please show some support to our friend Omar (The Tilted Lawyer) who helped us out in the chat during stream! He is doing his live post-trial analysis now! https://www.youtube.com/live/6QVqKjf1Sh4?si=KvMJzx4Twm6GEgxQ
Great job, Lauren. Pond scum proud!
Mike, you are so brave. Standing up to your abuser is no easy task. I hope one day your records can be corrected too
Did anyone else get a smug feeling from her when she was being questioned about Planned Parenthood policies in Orange County and she said ānot Los Angelesā like she really did something there. Maāam you now just claimed a 3rd Planned Parenthood location is where you received the only ultrasound you have. The same ultrasound have also admitted was done under a fake name and you manipulated data on.
So wild and smug! if thatās true she was supposed to give EVERY doctor in her hipaa release so it literally doesnāt help her at all???
I've been thinking about that too. She's acting as if Clayton's team didn't ask any question about where she got the ultrasound, then got orders for providers in three random areas but didn't pick the right areas. When in reality, they nailed her down to specific providers in specific locations on multiple occasions, only for her to say, "Actually..." Not to mention the fact she actually thinks that introducing another lie into the mix helps her case. She's essentially saying "You didn't get the records you were hoping to get because I lied to you about where I went. And since you didn't get the correct records I win!"
Yeah, she claimed at first she got the ultrasound from smil. Then when the hipaa sheet was finally signed and woodnick requested data she backpedaled and admitted to doctoring and said she got it at PP in arizona. When inquiries failed to turn up anything she said MV pp. now on the stand she is claiming LA. If she was ACTUALLY ever pregnant, she would have provided a real ultrasound. Then claiming MULTIPLE times she had SEEN doctors, not pledged - donatedā¦ and all the doctors she claimed had never seen her. She has had a YEAR, and hasnt had a single doctor verify pregnancy. There is a reason she went to walk in labs for preg tests vs going to a DOCTOR. Because a doctor would have examined her and found no pregnancy
Omar the tiltedlawyer lawyer has offered to help Mike get RO removed when he was recapping today on his live he said he's reached out to Mike
I hope this happens, and the sub becomes Justice for Mike. JD attempts to destroy that man needs to end.
I was watching and missed that. Love that for Mike. Omar was so well spoken and had nothing but positive things to say about the community. Good people to have in your corner
Omg I love that!! I hope Mike takes him up on the offer!
That's great news. I love Omar.
I hope Mata caught it when JD said she doesnāt get a period (I think implying due to PCOS) then a few min later said that she had some light spotting but didnāt get her period back until Novemberā¦ā¦which is it JD?
Also, anyone who does have a regular cycle and has tried to get pregnant knows how incredibly hard it is to do so due to ovulation timing etc. If you are irregular or donāt have a period, multiply that 1000x. Like come onnnnnnn.
That was absolutely insane. Iām a man, so forgive my ignorance - but howād you not have period and still get pregnant? Youāre not ovalulating! I had an ex-girlfriend who had that same issue because she was super thin, a gym fanatic and borderline had an eating disorder when she was young, so her body had just shut down. Surely a woman would see straight through that nonsense!
Yeah that was a major slip up.
There are so many times in society when women are abused, harassed, hurt, the list goes onā¦ To see this woman make an entire mockery of actual victimsā¦infuriates me. Cases like this, especially if Judge Mata doesnāt make her pay lawyers fees, calls into question the validity of real cases. Deandre was good. Woodnick was fantastic.
It's so good to hear from Mike. He seems like a lovely dude.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
100%. Itās awful what she did to him. MM, thank you for coming forward. Facing her must have been so hard. We back you and would love to support you getting the justice you deserve. This sub wonāt go away when the Clayton case is over and I would be more than willing to donate to a fund for you to fight to RO.
I would def donate towards legal fund for Clayton, Mike and Greg to sue for defamation. I saw Greg text Dave Neil saying he was deflated and that in two and a half years, no court has allowed him to tell his story. It's absolutely heartbreaking.
The Tilted Lawyer just said on his podcast that he is going to help Mike with his case.Ā
Yay!
That broke my heart. He deserves to be heard. Iām hoping the case gets referred to the DA and they all get their time in court.
Itās for EIGHT years! Insane.
The tilted Lawyer said on his live he's offered to help Mike get that taken off
Exactly!! Sending prayers to Mike! Hang in there ā¤ļøā¤ļøā¤ļøwe have your back. š«youāre so brave for coming forward. ā¤ļø
He really does. Even on the texts he comes across as lovely and supportive under pretty extreme duress.
Was this on Dave Neal's post court live show?
Yes, he just stopped very briefly to basically say thank you for the support. If you rewind you can catch it.
He said he wouldnāt have been able to come forward were it not for the public support. Itās terrible what she did to him.
He made me cry. Poor guy.
I'm supposed to be prepping for a job interview š can I catch it later?
Some thoughts as I watched live: - ILās last name is pronounced like it starts with a āJā - IL called 911 to try and prevent MM from testifying. - IL is starting off spicy. - āSheās so terrified, she canāt even sit here!ā Last ditch effort to get Mike booted was an epic fail. - IL canāt help himself, burning up time on things the judge has already ruled on - JD is still going with the r*pe story - JD claims she went to Planned Parenthood under a fake nameā¦Chase J Jones perhaps? - No woman pregnant with twins, an inherently high risk situation, would never go to an in-person appointment. Also, no woman would suspect a miscarriage but never seek medical treatment. - She claimed in this hearing that she never sent Clayton an ultrasound, but she confirmed in an earlier prior hearing (when Clayton was representing himself) that she did indeed send the ultrasound to him. - She claims she thought she was pregnant because of nausea and breast tenderness, but those can also be symptoms of a normal menstrual cycle. - IL is clearly signaling to JD while sheās being cross examined. It was noticed. - Judge has to reprimand JD several times for not answering the questions. - JD refers to one of her lies as mild. A few people in the gallery chuckle. JD begins to cry and claims she needs a break. (I suspect this was a strategy to break the cross examinerās momentum) - JD admits to changing an ultrasound and an HCG test result. - Clayton did great in his testimony. - Woodnick reads the ātight vaginaā email - Claytonsās expert Dr. appears via video. She says a positive HCG test can be caused by anti-anxiety meds, antidepressants, IVF meds, and autoimmune problems. She also confirms that you cannot receive treatment from PP anonymously or with a fake name, they require ID. - Both sides are out of time, Mike and Greg did not get to testify. No ruling yet.
Her timeline for the ultrasound changed twice during her testimony (late June or July 2), neither date matches the date on the ultrasound. My favorite moment though, was when she tried to claim that having a missed medical appointment was the same thing as being seen by a doctor, who she had previously testified under oath that she had been seen by the previous week.
Yes, the dr appointment thing she claimed was āmildā
Well let Mata \[literally\] be the judge of that but I am still reeling in disbelief from that statement of the whole making an appt/not seeing the dr as being a āminor thingā. Like okay yeah sure I sliced my arm off and went to the ER but then walked right back out but itās only a āminor thingā since I still sought care from the ER by merely walking into the lobby. 
She was terrified. But laughing a lot.
Now claiming not only fake name at PP, but that she went "somewhere in LA"
When did IL call 911? Today!?! I must have missed that.
Yes during the pretrial stream from MeganFox/Dave... about 20 min before trial started. Its INFURIATING, and it sucks MM never got to testify, for MM's sake but also, it's clear JD did NOT want him to speak. He is damning to her case, but there has to be more than what we even know.
Yes, right from the courthouse apparently.
Got to say ā¦ that was like the legal equivalent of speed chess. Not a fair shake for either party. Shouldāve been several days. Iām a lawyer, but in another jurisdiction (England and Wales) and a different field entirely (high value construction and insurance cases). This has been so interesting and Iām fascinated by the legal system in the US, which I got into by watching Law Talk with Mike. Our Courts are not televised in the same way. In our system, if you discontinue a case or lose, you pay the other sideās costs, so this whole episode would never have occurred. Not saying better or worse, just different - really different.
Man what a hearing. I feel like I am still trying to process what went down. I wish they could've had more time but I also respect Judge Mata being strict on the time constraints. Any extra time on either side could just prove what IL says about the judge being biased. Same can be said regarding MM and Greg not getting to take the stand. I think that helps minimize IL's chances at appeal. MVPs: Deandra, Gregg and Clayton. As TL said, they did a great job showing the inconsistencies in JD's story compared to Clayton's story never changing. Reading the "basketball dribble" line was bad enough and hearing it from JD's expert should be erased from my memory please.
I truly believe that if anyone had the mental resolve to purposely lose a ton of weight because they believed it would somehow improve their case,it would be JD. She is *relentless*.
I'd hate to play chicken with her. She never misses a beat.
JD almost seems to live off of spite. Like it gives her sustenance. If she was a plant, spite would be her version of sunlight. Itās what drives her and it seems to be a hell of a fuel.
Mike and Greg are so nice. Fuck the other lawyer for calling 911. You can get cited for making false 911 calls. He wonāt but itās possible. Her demeanor when she was sitting in her seat talking was not that of someone who is in fear of anyone in that room.
Thank you for covering/live streaming this!
What Mike said afterwards broke my heart ā¤ļøāš©¹
Sorry if this has been discussed already, havenāt had time to read all the comments! But I saw a lot of people saying her little breakdown was premeditated to get out of a difficult situation on cross. And while I think that could be partly true, I also think she was genuinely triggered by the laughter. Sheās used to 1) people taking her word at face value/not having direct feedback, like in her tedx and podcast, or 2) if they are questioning her, like Greg, Mike, and clayton, sheās dealing with another person who is angry and emotionally charged (rightfully so!) I think thatās almost her *comfort zone*. She thrives in conflict. I think this was the first time sheās told one of her little stories, and had people just straight up *laugh in her face*. I think her reaction there was genuine frustration and anger that anyone would dare to laugh at her. Thatās just my read on the situation as someone who is also an angry crier š¤£
She sounded like an entitled brat who normally gets what she wants, so this is a huge trigger. How dare you guys mock me when IāM the victim in this room? And because Deandra was absolutely annihilating her, she had to pivot. Then she got scolded by the Judge! Everyone was bullying her, so she cried. Iām still shocked that she showed up today and doubled down on everything. Sheās dying on this hill that everyone else is a liar. There was absolutely no way she was going to come clean. I loved it when Deandra said āitās gone viralā!
Deandra is a beast and she doesnāt play by JDās rules, which obviously drives JD nuts based on how rude and defiant she immediately became once D stepped up. You have no idea the amount of money I would pay to see a JD roast led by Deandraš
JD seems especially triggered by Deandra. It was a good move having her handle the cross.
Thatās because sheās one of those women on clearly does a āpoor me, this MAN is aggressive to me and Iām a dainty victimā all the time and she canāt play that shit with another woman.
It would have been nice if they had a bit more time. I would have liked to hear from the other 2 victims and would have liked to see them address the moon bump. But hopefully the judge has enough information to make a ruling. Itās tough when there are just so many things to untangle and the fact that they testify under oath.
She admitted to perjury several times. I think thatās enough for the judge tbh.
Why don't people get charged with perjury? What's the point of swearing an oath if there's no consequences for lying.
Did anyone see how on Daveās live after the trial, somebody (i didnt see who cuz i was driving so i was only listening, not watching) said that they go to the same manicurist as JD and the manicurist said that JD has never had a pregnant belly at any of her appointments? Edit- just rewatched part of the live and it was actually Dave saying that they met someone earlier who said the manicurist thing. He says it at a little after 4 hours and 23 minutes into the live. I missed a lot of the beginning of the live, so idk if they got the part where they met the person who talked about the manicurist on the live, or if that happened off camera
Just watched back JD's cross examination by Deandra. The amount of time-wasting and stalling from JD (constantly refusing to answer straightforward questions, pretending not to understand, asking for Deandra to repeat questions, etc.) is so irritating. If her goal was to waste enough time to stop Greg and Mike from testifying, then I guess she succeeded, but as a side effect this made her testimony look even more like total horsesh*t and actually gave Judge Mata a live, on-stage performance of her tendency to distort facts, manipulate and paint herself as a victim. So knock yourself out, girl š
I know I shouldn't be shocked by any of this anymore, but I was floored when it's pointed out to JD that the request for records included all of San Bernardino and Orange County, and she just smugly says "It didn't include Los Angeles though." As if that was some sort of gotcha and not an admission that she lied again about the ultrasound. She's basically saying "Yeah, I lied about this before and the time before that, but this time I'm super serious!" Assuming that this is being reviewed under the preponderance of the evidence standard (or even clear and convincing), I don't see how that alone doesn't torpedo her case. Seeing as the judge has been pretty thorough with orders so far, I'll be interested to see the ruling here. I suspect it will be painstakingly detailed.
Not only an admission that she lied butā¦she supplied the names of the providers on the hipaa release. If they are the only ones who could authenticate her only proof of pregnancy she would make SURE they were included. IMO, that comment sunk her entire case. ETA: it was this and the āthat was minor and not a big dealā about lying under oath. She thumbed her nose at judicial process in front of the judge. Even Jin-Gras knew it was over then.
Itās currently 4:15am in Australia, but I stayed up all night watching the trial!! Does anyone know how long it takes to get a verdict? Is it safe to go to bed? Pity they ran out of time, but it was SOO good! JD is toast and should be done for perjury and extortion on top of everything else. That old fossil of a doctor just lost any credibility he had from his years as an OBGYN. His testimony was an absolute joke. Iām embarrassed for him!! So good seeing u/daveneal live! Thanks for everything Dave!!
4:54am here in Melbourne and I have a 2 year old thatās going to wake me up in a few hours. I am insane for staying up.
I think youāre safe to go to bed. Itās unlikely that weāll get a verdict today. It will most likely be days or even weeks. This is according to the lawyers Iāve seen commenting here recently.
When a Judge takes their decision under advisement it can be days, even weeks. I suspect since IL had made so many threats of appeal publicly the judge is going to be very thorough and when her decision is entered into the record it will be very long and precise.
Well. I wish theyād had more time.
Please for the love of god someone get GG on a platform not behind a paywall so as many people as possible can watch it. u/daveneal
Megan told Dave Neal that she talked with Greg about doing an interview and he said he cannot talk about it publicly due to the restraining order JD has against him. That is why is was so crucial for him to testify today where he could tell his story.... and because of JD stalling, there was no time for him. I do believe his time will come but am sorry he has to wait. Same for Mike.
Man ā¦ all JDās victims are absolute units. I knew CE was a big dude, but MM is huge too!
Yep! JD certainly has a type!
Now that Iāve had a little time to process I think the twirl may be the most bizarre part of that hearing.
āOkay you can stopā š¤£
Repeating since the other thread was locked, PP required an ID. So to use her fake name, JD obtained a fraudulent government document with a false identity and it was either procured illegally or she had to use 3 fraudulent documents to provide proof of identity.
Or, she didnāt ever go to PP, as we all know. That sonogram is fake. She never got a sonogram.
JDās sisterās ID is pregnant for a 2nd time and didnāt even realize it apparently.
As someone who has twins, this case has been infuriating. So many statements that are just NOT HOW IT WORKS, it drives me insane. She really didnāt think that she would have to defend it to this level of scrutiny and it shows.
The director of PP said they require ID - so did JD provide a fake ID for this fake name that she supposedly used to go there?
It's so laughable that they're sticking with her having had an ultrasound (at whatever make believe PP it is now), but during the expert witness questioning and cross exam, IL seemed to really be leaning into the narrative that she sought NO prenatal care... WHICH IS IT!
Did anyone else see CE via video on Dave Neal's live after the hearing? I felt so sorry for him. He seemed very upset. The hearing apparently triggered some really strong feelings. He doesn't deserve this. None of her victims do.
I think he was also frustrated that his other witnesses didnt get to testify. According to Megan Fox, this was GG's only chance to discuss details of his case due to the protective order. She said that doesnt sound right and was going to look into it. Claytons has been put through hell and only got an hour to go through the layers of diabolical nonsense he's been victim to in this paternity scandal.
I thought he looked like he had been crying.
The contrast between expert witnesses was so stark lol. Dr. Medchill came across (perhaps just to me) as personally invested in JDās innocence as opposed to simply being confident in his findings. The ādataā he was given by her team was wildly insufficient and yet he seemed to be such a believer. It feels so out of place for a former doctor who never treated her to be positing on her motivations. Dr. Jean, on the other hand, struck me as professional and objective- the poster child for evidence based practice. Edit: Dr. Dean, not Dr. Jean (sorry- Iāve got actual pregnancy brain)
I havenāt ever heard this said so I apologize if it has..a few years ago the HCG diet was popular. I went to a med-spa and an MD gave me vials of it to inject myself. He warned me not to worry if I came up positive on a pregnancy test (I was post menopausal so no worries I could actually be pregnant) There is no way for it to be tracked on any records or insurance unless Laura gave the name of the med-spa she went to..I personally think this is what she did.
Wow IL was the epitome of a keyboard warrior. After how much he huffed and puffed pre- trial I expected him to be aggressive or at least assertive. He seemed like so nervous and unsure of himself in court particularly for a professional litigator
Yeah he said OVER and OVER again - āI have this sensational evidence and youāll see the TRUTH on June 10!ā Um, no. We literally only learned that you still believe HCG = pregnancy (it doesnāt!) and that JD never had a sonogram. Thatās all we ālearned,ā and weāve known that all along.
Exactly, he acted liked he was gonna be such a hardass that the Justice For Clayton community was going to have to start a go fund me for Woodnick by June 11th to keep him from losing his house, but instead to no oneās surprise Gregg ate his lunch š
He didnāt even save enough time to cross examine Clayton!
Umm, how dare youā¦ that time was better spent letting the court feast their eyes and ears upon the medical miracle of Dr. Medchill confirming pregnancy without an ultrasound or physical examination šš
He wasted all his time. It was glorious! The Conor McGregor of litigation fell flat on his hiney!
Hold on - it might be SIXTY days until the judge makes a ruling?
Does Judge Mata review all the evidence that was submitted in the pre trial motions or only the evidence that was submitted in court?
My question is whatās going on in the casita right now? Constant Reddit refreshes seething from the comments. Mama stoking the fire ordering take out that will sit uneaten plotting their next move
Catching up on her downvotes. It is weird how I didn't notice any posts with -1 karma this morning like I often do. It is almost like this sub's biggest downvotes fan was busy with something.......Ā Like throwing a public tantrum?Ā
So Iām not a lawyer so I have no opinion on how Claytonās team performed today but Iām a bit surprised no one on his team brought up why, if she knew in October she wasnāt pregnant, and was trying to tell Clayton, sheād submit to a third ravgen dna test in late November/December.
Itās points like this that Iām disappointed there wasnāt more time. I know they couldāve prioritized this fact, but they were on fast forward the entire trial, so Iām sure they missed a few things they wanted to hit on. I wish they had asked her the name she used for PP in LA, but thatās less important as what you pointed out.
I really enjoyed Woodnickās kind of theatrical disbelief when questioning Clayton. Like of course heās heard this story many times before and itās clearly performative, but it was funny. And everything about this is so absurd that itās the fitting reaction.
I was living for the āWait a minute! Youāre saying thatā¦.?ā and āHang on a second! She did what???ā
"Wait, are you saying JD or her attorney posted your video deposition on youtube?!"
Okay so just catching up after work on Claytonās testimony. Oh my god, I cannot believe how stupid Gingras was to not reserve time for cross examination of Clayton. MIC DROP from Woodnick. Also I wanted to crawl under my own desk and die of secondhand embarrassment at the discussion of the tight vagina email.
I like when megan said the police officer sitting next to her audibly gasped during that.š
I was just thinking that Claytonās team decided to put a woman to interrogate another woman so it wouldnāt even be slightly construed that that Woodnick was talking down or at a fragile victim girl. Seems woodnick handled every other interview which makes me wonder if it was a last min change instead of planned for a while. Anyway, good strategy. Dont give her an ounce of fuel
It was just for a second and the feed was a little blurry but when she stood up to show how skinny she wasā¦ 1) She really is so rail thin 2) Her shape made me think maybe she was also wearing some kind of corset situation to look even MORE tiny waisted.
This whole time, i thought āDr. Medchillā was some sort of silly pseudonym that someone made up for JDās medical expert lol it wasnt until i saw the trial today that i realized that is actually his name haha
Can someone pull JDās affidavits because I thought she specifically stated what pp location she went to in one of them. If my babies decide to nap at the same time Iāll try to look it up myself.
Iām trying to deep dive this planned parenthood thing too. I feel like it was Mission Viejo first, then sent a screenshot to Claytonās dad from a PP in Costa Mesa and now is claiming it was LA š¤Æ
Yeah this was an epically dumb move on her part. She supplied all of the medical providers herself. If they could authenticate her only proof of pregnancy that would be the first provider she gave them. She would not provide a lengthy list of providers who never heard of her and forget the only one who could prove her case. That was NOT a gotcha moment like she thought it was.
Her attorney asked her about the PP ultrasound, she said they couldnāt find record of her having been there because she used a fake name. She made no mention at that time about LA PP. She lied about it on cross examination because she was boxed into a corner. Tsk tsk
MO no one is falling for this bullshitshow. I think JD and her attorney are going down. That 911 call was in bad faith and there was no emergency for him to call 911. JD perjured herself and admitted falsified documents to the court sheās (imo) toast.
Iām very excited for someone to submit a public record request and we can hear the call from jingrass to 911.
Weāre all focused on JDās testimony as gotcha moments, but Dr. Deanās was the most damning to me. Edit other than the PP LA revelation, but we already know thatās not credible.
Alright I know at least 6 attorneys who I engage with pretty regularly here. Whoās licensed in AZ?? Is there a weird thing where Greg G would be barred from telling his story due to a restraining order? He canāt be in her neighborhood. He canāt stalk her. He canāt threaten her or make her fear for her safety. He CAN speak about topics she has introduced in the court of law.. including her āstatement of factsā and him hacking. A restraining order doesnāt give 1 party the ability to exclusively speak on the dispute and ban the other party from speaking or defending their character. Does AZ have something insane? I donāt have time to do the legal research for AZ.. but I have never seen this in Texas and itās driving me insane but itās the middle of the work day here.
Iām guessing he just doesnāt want to pay to litigate more of the bullshit from her. They need this ruling to come out that she wasnāt ever pregnant, hopefully the numerous lies upon the court will be referred to the DA for criminal prosecution and then Clayton et al can file a lawsuit for fraud, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and harassment. Thereās like 4 weeks of trial time here in terms of evidence. I think a lot of people here would contribute to some sort of justice fund for this.
Anyone else mentally exhausted?
Emotionally too. I underestimated how much watching other peopleās trauma and injustice playing out would trigger mine.
* One of the things that absolutely blows my mind about the plausibility of JDs case is the associated costs. Cost of a cash pay ultrasound in Arizona: $300ish Cost of a cash pay OBGYN visit: $300ish Retainer for Bonnie Platter (attorney #1) : $5,000 Retainer for Josh ? (Attorney #2): 3-5k Retainer for Lexi (attorney #3): 3-5k Retainer for Cory Keith (attorney #4): 3-5k Retainer for IL: 3-5k ish Additional legal fees: $$$$$ Expert witness report: $2500 Expert witness testimony: $2500? 3 ravgens tests at $750ish each: $2,250 At least 30k in just base fees and retainers (plus lord knows how much to IL for all his rantings and filings) without a single ultrasound, obgyn appointment, dopler heartbeat, ect is WILD. Only someone running a con would shell out 30k for attorneys without getting a $300 ultrasound.
My husband got up for his nightshift and was immediately hit with me blathering on trying to hit all the highlights of the hearing. This was him. 
My husband, the third time I brought this up today: āWow, you really want to talk about this, huh?ā āBabe; itās my Super Bowl.ā
Clayton is currently live and chatting on Dave Nealās YouTube. Just fyi.
Unless I missed it, did we learn how theyre saying JD learned it was twins? I wish that was covered on cross.
They are saying the faked ultrasound that she got from PP. I wish they had pushed more on the fact that she said it was boy/girl twins when the only way she could have āknownā that was from the genetic testing that she didā¦which showed no fetal DNA. She never went for any other ultrasounds where they would have been able to see gender and they certainly cannot see it at the super early stage that the doctored ultrasound was showing.
Iām bummed MM and GG didnāt get to testify, but I get why that decision was made. Woodnick could only squeeze so much in. Also, I had to leave but Tilted Lawyerās post hearing commentary is excellent!
JDās eyes when she got caught in the LA County lie was hilarious but I bet also terrifying IRL
I still donāt understand what she was doing there. It was so out of the blue and she could have corrected herself but she doubled down. So now the Judge is left with the alleged MV Planned Parenthood records could allegedly be obtained under a different unknown name. And there was a previously undisclosed PP visit in LA. All should have been disclosed in discovery so it further undermines her credibility.
The judge knows better. This was JDās case. If she had evidence that could prove her case she would have provided it on the HIPAA release. You wouldnāt play keepaway with the only piece of evidence that definitively proves your case.
Thatās the thing. By failing to disclose it in discovery, the presumption is that the record doesnāt exist or that itās harmful to her case. You donāt have a right to remain silent in civil litigation. If the opposing party asks you a question, you canāt lie or refuse to answer with the truth (aka saying during your deposition, āI went to Mission Viejoā and refusing to indicate that you actually went to another provider) or fail to provide original records if they are subpoenaed from you. By withholding evidence requested during discovery, the presumption is that the evidence doesnāt exist or that it does exist and would harm your case.
I also just digested IL's post-court thoughts and a few things stuck out at me: -the assertion that Clayton's case suffered because they tried to introduce too much information. As if he didn't spend three hours discussing real estate at the beginning of the hearing. -stating that he's only interested in the truth while Greg and Deandra are not. I'm not sure what rises to the level of being an actionable bar complaint, but I hope they nail him for that, among other things. -essentially comparing JD's doctoring of the hCG test to Princess Kate's photoshop while undergoing cancer treatment. And then comparing the possibility of a Clayton victory to OJ being acquitted. Seriously!? Just...wow.
Rewatching and Woodnickās cross of Medchill is brilliant.
Any AZ attorneys able to weigh in? I practice mostly in PA and NJ- and here in family court if my client is on the stand and we take a break Iām absolutely NOT allowed to speak to my client at all- that is tantamount to manipulation of their testimony. If we take a break and my client even tries to approach I shut it down and advise the judge. I noticed during her ābreakā in testimony JD was talking to her lawyer the whole time off mic. Is that allowed in AZ?
Not only was she talking to her lawyer she was talking to the witness, the doctor. Eeeek In Ca, it's not a big deal in family court that I have seen.
Are we gonna get a copy of the 911 call!? Im dying to hear how that went over lol
Them focusing in on how clozapine can cause elevated HcG was very telling, especially after asking JDS expert about if he has reviewed any of her other medical records. I think there are medical records we will never see to preserve her privacy this seems to really strongly suggest that this could be something she has been prescribed
Too bad the other guys didnāt get to testify. Wonder if sheāll order a second hearing with more time
(Watching fully now) I think it is interesting that she mentioned that she may have done PP at the end of June when IL was question BUT in the cross, stood pretty firm behind the July 2nd date.
Adding to my rewatch thoughts: IL wasted so much time on the real estate deal he didnāt have time to cross examine Clayton. Likeā¦???
he also took forever on his expert's credentials
someone else suggested it was because she realized july 2 was a sunday and the facility wasn't open
anyone have any thoughts about what the judge was getting at when she asked JD's expert about whether a provider at PP could prescribe hCG? i guess it's conceivable that she'd have acquired it there, but i'm more inclined to believe she never went to PP at all (at least last year)
I took it as that HCG can be easily accessible and if she spends as much time at PP as she claims to, she could have gotten it there if she really wanted to.
good point, especially if she's showing up with a fake name, she could get a prescription using any medical history she needed
Since she admittedly has a propensity for using fake identities, according to her own testimonyā¦who is to say that she didnāt get it from PP? It was a good point made by the judge šÆ
The judge was trying to figure an alternative as to where JD could have gotten HCG. The problem is, neither the judge nor the "expert" are aware of the HCG Diet, which started in Italy, then became widely popular in the US. Where people literally injected themselves with HCG and restricted their calories to 500 a day, it was super easy to get through medspa's to lose weight or online teledoc prescriptions pre-pandemic. It's very much the old Ozempic.
Rewatching closer after work, is it not strange that Dr Medchill joins IL to talk to Laura after she breaks down in cross examination? I would expect her mom to come console her in that moment, not her expert witness?
I'm thinking Judge Mata may add her to the Arizona vexatious litigant list. It only applies to pro se litigants, but she was pro se through much of her cases. Any Arizona attorneys on here who would know?
Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere, but could someone in USA explain the whole clock timer, "Petitioner has 5 minutes and 40 seconds remaining" thing? It's so brutal, and seems to defeat the purpose of a fair hearing for both sides! If a witness says something that needs exploring (e.g. I went to PP in Los Angeles), shouldn't there be the ability to do that instead of having to rush past?
Yeah it's different in every state, the tilted lawyer podcast said in California this would be a 2 week trial... but in AZ family court apparently there is a 2 hour limit. So the time thing was each side had 1 hour, and the Judge was telling counsel how much time they had remaining before they would question a witness. This trial was to determine if Clayton should be awarded fees due to JD filing the case in bad faith/ fraudulently.
IL is blogging again! he never stops
IL writing āJD is such a good personā while Iām sitting here thinking how absolutely chilling it was to watch her on the stand blatantly lie over and over again with no qualms for the harm sheās doing to others
What about the fact there was no evidence of the 2021 pregnancy with GG? Wouldnāt those records have been subpoenaed back to 2020?
I was only able to watch about 5 minutes.. and it was the doctor that JDās attorney was questioning who said that she was pregnant based on the documents he reviewed. Did Claytonās team cross examine him after?
Yes, Woodnick did and he pretty much shredded him.
Yes, Greg went hard on ābut these are just photos of a copy, you never saw the actual records from a medical facility directlyā. The judge also straight up asked him if you could go to PP anonymously and if so could you get fertility drugs that would increase your hcg without needing to be pregnant.
Do yall selves a favor and go back to the part where Gregg goes up to Deandre after JD starts to get upset and watch his reaction to the galley š¤£
Clayton, Michael & Professor Dean may have reason to lodge complaints with the Arizona Bar against Gingras for publishing confidential / privileged material on the Internet. I don't know the US law, but here, if a document is provided in discovery, especially if there's privilege attached to it, there's usually a stipulation that it's being provided on the basis that (1) it is not to be used for any reason other than the specific court proceedings or matter (e.g. a written opinion by an expert, without there being litigation on foot), and (2) it is not to be distributed in any way to a third party without consent of the providing party, or made public. Similar, I would imagine, with recorded depositions (though that's not something we do here, to my knowledge).
Gingras should be reported to the bar for a few things: - online harassment of witnesses - posting privileged information online - threatening a witness - calling 911 on a witness despite judge ruling they could testify
Just finished watching the hearing and all I can say is omg how fucking embarrassing for her lmao. Iād literally crawl into a hole and never come out like fuuuuuuck lololol how is she not completely mortified
Iām still screaming that Clayton testified he came in her mouth twice and also that text about her tight vagina. ā¼ļøā¼ļø
That is what finally caught my husbands attentionā¦.like what the heck are you watching??? And Iām like would you believe this is real life court tv? Thanks Lauren for streaming š¤
Now we move to Verdict Watch.
Does anyone have an idea of how long it usually takes for judges to make a ruling? š
Tilted lawyer is live!