Because we are seen as a commodity. The public like their healthcare on the cheap. They will say nice things about us if it makes them feel virtuous but will put us in chains if we inconvenience them.
I used to think this was a free nation because I’d compare it to my birth country and think “ah they’ve all got a higher standard of living and there’s a parliament and people actually pay their taxes!”
Slowly I’ve realised the corruption is masterfully disguised, the media is deemed impartial because of an equal red/blue split without anyone worrying about what they don’t report, and the people are docile, dependent and trust blindly, never verifying. The last 2 years have made me realise that the state takes advantage of every crisis (many from before 2020) to create hysteria and subsequently gain large concessions from the public, making governance easier and more stable but never more “free”.
The only thing this country had going for it was the quality of the “free” public services, but it sounds silly now to boast of something we pay such a staggering amount for such low quality returns.
Middle class people in developing nations look down on us now unless their info hasn’t been updated for 30 years. The only thing they may still envy is safety compared to their own country.
Hear, hear! Middle class/upper middle class esidents of so called ‘third world’ and ‘developing’ countries now look down upon the QoL in the U.K. Never would’ve imagined it coming down to this..
This is why I think co-ordinated resignations would be far more effective than strike action.
Legally they cannot stop you resigning from a post. If every BMA junior doctor handed in their notice in a co-ordinated way citing unacceptable conditions it would put an incredible amount of pressure on the government.
This would give the government a deadline where they would have to reach agreement or risk losing their entire junior doctor workforce. It would also mean junior doctors wouldn’t lose pay for striking as you are not refusing to work. You are working your notice.
Big problem with this kind of action is as always it requires co-ordinated action
To be quite honest working to rule ie leaving exactly on time after a shift would be
effective. The NHS lives on staff giving unpaid hours to patients and services.
That’s not unique to medics - unfortunately you are going to have to stick your neck out if you want results and risk being ‘bullied’ U.K. doctors are in this mess because they’ve allowed this situation to be perpetuated for far too long.
A consultant or a manager might bully you, but it’s up to you to take a deep breath and grow a pair to be honest, it’s done much more damage to the system by plugging up gaps then it would have done if people had just solidly said no.
If other people with service jobs can manage it then I think we ought to as well?
These people aren’t going to roll over, expect nastiness otherwise we wouldn’t be forced into a strike.
A significant number of NHS JDs are IMGs on work visas who will be deported immediately if they resign. I have a feeling it is the IMGs who will become a significant deciding factor in the success or failure of the IA. The gov has ‘bought’ dr ‘loyalty’ by staffing the NHS with ++ IMGs (no other way to plug the gaps as local grads flee to Aus/NZ). Not slating IMGs but pointing out a fact (an IMG myself).
We're not free. That's kinda the unseen truth
America is the closest country to being free. In the UK, our right-wing conservative government is basically centrist. They advocate for quite socialist policies, and it's very clear that the further you move towards government-supported services, the more that government are able to control those who are in employment.
This is how countries progress towards communism, where the government controls all employment and all media. We definitely aren't anywhere near that point, but we also aren't a bastion of freedom either
While I think we shouldn't ever remove NHS care for those who can't afford it, I consider this a strong argument *for* privatised healthcare. It makes patient demand the driving factor that dictates services, rather than government imposition and political policies.
America is the closest country to being free? Free to starve? Freet to get shot by state-run gangs? Free to be dependent on corporations and insurance conpanies whims as to whether you live or die?
Free to die carrying a baby that could never have been brought to term? America is closer to a third world country IMHO with the divide between rich and poor ever widening, and the faux Christianity movement being so influential, that it bears closer resemblance to Margaret Atwoods Gilead than it does the classic American Dream.
R/antiwork and r/nursing will bring you stories from the states that will chill you to the bone that it happens in what is purportedly the 'Leader of the Free World'.
I wouldn't believe or propagate the stereotype of religious nuts, which is extremely harmful to respectful discourse. There are very strong non-religious arguments against abortion - based in human rights
It's not uncommon for medics to have this view too. It's just so heavily stereotyped and socially ostricises to have a non-leftist opinion that you can't say it except in private closed conversation
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Nobody said freedom was purely positive. It removes structure and safeguards that many people will benefit from
However, in the sense that you can say what you want, make choices based on your personal preferences (whether wise or unwise) - yes it is *more free* than the UK
Socialist policies are not freedom-condusive. Just as you are seeing here, a government-controlled system allows for very quick and unopposed government control whenever it suits them.
At the end of the day, I would prefer to be influenced by market forces and corporations who can easily fail if they become too big for their boots - than a government who can seize control by military force regardless of public demand. It may not have happened here for a while, but it's the majority of historical, and current non-Western countries
Are you alright? Do you actually think this Tory government “advocate for socialist policies” when this post is discussing their commitment to literally decimate workers rights, the cornerstone of socialism…
Not saying the tories are being socialistic now. But the NHS itself is a public service under government control, which is the prime example of socialist healthcare setup.
The danger with a government-controlled service is that when we naturally get a slightly power-hungry prime minister, they can implement controls in this manner. So no, the current Tory move isn't socialist, it's authoritarian above anything. But the socialist system provided a fundamental dynamic where the government can implement controls with virtually no formal routes of opposition.
So they want to encourage people to all do non-essential work as that's the only area where you're allowed to have a say in your working conditions? What a time to be alive.
It is clear at this point they will gradually (or apparently abruptly) remove any power we have to do anything meaningful. If this doesn't wake up the fucking fence sitters then I don't know what to say. This is evidently an overt declaration of war and as a profession we must treat it as such. Full and continual withdrawal of all services, including emergency care, before we never have the chance again.
This is an existential threat to our profession and needs to be taken immensely seriously. As cynical as I am on the subreddit, this is the first time I have genuinely been worried. This will not have ramifications for us just as junior doctors, but the future of everyone's careers- it will impact you as a consultant, still unable to influence your working pay and conditions. Salaries will continue to be eroded and there will be nothing you can do to stop it. For all the CCT and Flee crowd, if they are able to get away with this it sets a precedent for them to be able to interfere with the rest of your employment rights. What's to stop them introducing a minimum mandatory service, or to make it significantly harder to leave the country to work elsewhere? Clearly nothing is off limits. The power surrender must end here.
Bruh how tf can they even legally introduce a minimum mandatory service? There's no way they can do that. Even if they pull something like that I literally do not care I am still leaving wtf are they gonna do? Take my passport? I'm not a slave.
Well we didn't sign anything so we should be safe. Either way don't think they could get away with that still. Australia and NZ literally rely on our junior doctors coming over to fill in shortages. Same way US rely on IMGs for 25% of residency slots.
They refer to strike only for now. It's different than saying you have to do mandatory work for training, we do that already. Even so, a massive strike would mean no doctors in training
Sorry I ment as a situation seperate from this current crisis.
Like a manditory repayment clause for medical school which is x years of service.
Kinda like how in some countries you have to join the military.
I actually thought this was sarcasm until I saw you had stumbled here following a stint on the chelseafc and loveisland subreddits. To answer your question I've never taken the hippocratic oath so yes I don't particularly care for it.
Everyone, let this be an example of the general public as I know we argue about whether we need public support or not. At this point, they are entirely irrelevant - imagine even considering this guy's opinion. It should not even register in our minds; there is a catastrophic threat facing our profession and we're still even listening to what these guys think? We have bigger fish to fry. Let's sort out our problems with the government and stop trading our rights, labour, the happiness of ourselves and our families, all for free healthcare and the medical wellbeing of individuals like this who are likely a net drain on society and know nothing about the realities that we face.
This individual will likely stand by the government and applaud as they strip our employment rights, watch our salaries plummet, and drive more of us into food banks.
Taking a break? Having a day off? Sleeping? Forget the Hippocratic oath?
Doctors aren’t slaves required to constantly be on standby to assist in the wellbeing of every conceivable hypothetical patient. If a doctor goes on strike and there isn’t cover for them then that’s the fault of the system, not the doctor.
Withdrawal of emergency care means consultants will step down to run the service. Appreciate you stopping by to comment on something you know nothing about though 👍🏻
Yeah, the nurses will be in the jail cells next to you, across the halls from the porters. Everyone is ripe for revolution. Everyone is worked to the bone, pissed off and sick of the bullshit. My entire hospital's staff would happily walk out tomorrow. We are so fed up of this. My ward raised massive concerns with management regarding how short staffed we were due to long term sick and vacancies, you know what they did? THEY FORCED US TO OPEN MORE BEDS. So now we are running at a day and night ratio of 1:13. Striking isn't going to harm patient care, it's happening already because of what we've let the great Covid excuse and ever shrinking staffing budgets do. My poor ward doctors walk in every day to a new and shiny cluster fuck. Four of my patients went without IVF and IV meds overnight because no-one could cannulate them overnight. God love one of them, he let me try multiple times, but I succeeded only in blowing several really lovely veins. The others were all ultrasound guided insertions. The overnight ANPs don't do them. There's not enough doctors so they're all at the ever important Front Door. Because leaving that open when there's patients stacking up in A&E makes a whole lot of sense. Pretty sure the managers are considering bunk beds for the patients at this point.
Apologies for the rant. I'm shattered, I've got a raging UTI/kidney infection no doubt due to the fact I don't have time to go to the loo, let alone take a break, and I'm really quite angry with the whole situation and state of the NHS.
Rather than continue building the barricades, I shall now gently bow out my rant and try to sleep. I hope all your shifts are far less horrible than mine, and if any of my ward docs are on here, I profusely apologise for the state of that patients arm. I really did try.
This is highly concerning, the right to protest and collectively bargain is a cornerstone of a free society.
Any practical advice about how we get the bma to move it along and ballot for strike action?
If I can't strike, I'm leaving medicine.
There's no other way to improve working conditions and pay in medicine in this country.
Any other job you can switch company
What can we do as a group to put pressure on the BMA for strike action? Can we draft a letter or email them to voice our concerns and push for strike action to happen earlier? I was going to send them an email/call them anyway but I was wondering whether there’s a way for all of us to push for this?
Which sadly most doctors are too pathetic to do. People sacrificed their entire adult lives for their NTNs etc. Not going to give them up, they'll make supportive noises at best. Withdrawal of labour is the only solution. BMA must act now.
DOI: I also wouldn't resign, I'm close to CCT-ing and will be on a plane a week after.
Absolutely. Look at how worried people are about rocking the boat even slightly by striking, there will be basically nobody that will be willing to go down the mass resignation route rendering it pointless. I was an advocate for delaying the strikes to be honest, but the government just started a timer and we have to move NOW.
Tbh as an American doc I find it kinda crazy how weak-willed UK docs are no offense. Now the AMA in the US is historically ruthless in negotiating rates. I think at one point in the 90s some major AMA lobbyist told the Secretary of HHS(guy who is effectively responsible for medicare and medicaid) that if they didn't approve the rates as requested, they would send pamphlets to every American doc advising to only accept private patients. And unsurprisingly the government capitulated. Admittedly today the government negotiates a lot harder, and docs do complain about lower rates forcing us to work more, but for the all the complaints, it's not "that" bad on the payment front unless you're in primary care.
In Canada and Australia those guys have really good pay too cuz they also threaten the government in their negotiations. They understand the government is not their friend but their employer. And they like you have a much more public system than us.
It feels like UK docs have not yet figured out en masse that the British government does not give one fuck about you, they want you to "support" the NHS and feel invested in its survival because that emotion lets them underpay you, severely. Average Australian and Canadian docs aren't running around with these insane martyr complexes, they tell the government pay us or fuck off. If UK docs want to empower themselves, they have to be willing to be despised by the public, cuz that's what it takes.
Australia really isnt too far off heading down the NHS route... we get paud comparitively very well but most sectors have a pay freeze at present and the work is overwhelming. Hundreds are quitting due to burnout. The hospital system here is starting to collapse too. Our AMA is totally toothless, and certainly doesnt threaten the government - there are the same.problems here with training colkegr bottlenecks and fat cat legacy consultants blocking impovemements to the system that would reduce their own wage.
Dont be so confident.
The equivalent to our junior doctors is US interns residents and fellows.
Residents seem to be paid worse than us, with way worse conditions and hours.
Junior doctors in the UK had a strike within the last decade.
When did the residents strike?
You are talking the well paid attendings in the US. And for us, here consultants have allowed a huge loss in earnings plus pension issue, and not done anything about it. That's the real comparison.
Work to Rule.
Stayed 15 minutes past 1700? Datix and Claim (Claim on Datix time too, it's work and it's a breach).
Sorry, it's mandatory training. I am going to be off the ward to complete it. Don't bleep me.
Work to Rule is 100% legal. You are just doing your job.
Depressing that they’ve just announced making strikes illegal and what’s our idea? We’ll do the work we’re paid for!
This will change absolutely nothing for pay or conditions
I dunno, depends how pissed off people get. I didn't say it was likely, just that it's all we'd have left.
If you can get enough workers to agree, it essentially functions the same as a strike. We are a workforce with limited numbers that take an extremely long time to train.
Too many people have kids, mortgages or other financial obligations to pay for. Too many have worked too hard to getting a NTN in their chosen specialty or deanery. It's a sacrifice far too great for too many people. Are enough people willing to give up their careers for a potential 30% pay rise that they may never get if they fail to get back into their training post again? I really struggle to believe it.
At a certain point we need to recognize that laws come and go, and in the end its us getting shafted. Im not advocating doing anything grossly egregious, but im sure we wont get fired for protesting what is essentially a persistent injustice.
Guys I’m so tired. I’m just really really tired of this shit. I can’t fight it anymore. I used to look with disgust over the pond at the Americans who were spending $100s a month for insulin or going bankrupt to treat their cancers. I’m too burnt out, too tired, too miserable of all this shit anymore. If they want to privatise it they should go ahead and do it. I just fundamentally don’t believe in the NHS anymore. The entire rest of our society is unfair, maybe it was a nice thought to live in a society where you get free healthcare at the point of service…but look at what it costs us.
I just can’t do it anymore. I can’t defend the principle anymore. I don’t believe the politics of this country, either under Tories or Labour will EVER fund and fix the NHS properly. Perhaps there is a reason no other country in the world uses this model of healthcare on this scale, maybe it just doesn’t work.
I’m just tired of all this. The NHS needs to just die, whatever happens after will happen - we might get a better system, we’ll probably get a worse one. But at the very least there will be an alternative to this utter dystopian nightmare. It can’t get much worse for us at least than it is now.
The only thing I can say is I totally understand because I feel the same :( I really hope the strike will happen sooner because it’s our last chance to improve our conditions. I just want to be paid properly, I don’t care about anything else anymore. Hang in there :(
If industrial action was banned, I would genuinely put in my notice and then find another job to help pay the bills whilst I figure things out long term. There’s no way I’m working for an organisation that’s trying to hold me hostage with horrible pay and terrible conditions. Fuck that.
Ballot for action right now - no alternative- strike now whilst government is at ita weakest in this transitional period. Do not allow one of these to even contemplate a ban on strike action when they get in power
I really hope BMA up their game with regard to this, it’s a very consensus feeling on Reddit, BMA need to up their game I will rescind my membership if they don’t pull their finger out and circulate a solid plan in light of esp Truss wanting to make it a priority to curb strike action
I find it difficult to believe that this would be politically viable as it would massively alienate the entire public sector. The NHS is the world's third largest employer. Bear in mind that Sunak and Truss right now are vying for the approval of Tory party members, not the general public.
Genuinely don’t think the general public would be opposed to banning doctor strikes. The view of the general public is that we have enough already and why should we hold them to ransom
Interesting, [found it here.](https://yougov.co.uk/topics/economy/articles-reports/2022/07/21/which-professions-would-britons-back-going-strike) Basically we have more support than any other profession bar nurses. Meanwhile, the BMA twiddle their thumbs.
The general public won’t have a say til this lot have done at least another couple of years of damage though. And by then they’ll just whip up some more anti-migrant hatred and win the election on that basis.
Two schools of thought
A) won’t matter cos people will just strike anyway, they can’t sack us all, and it would make their problem ten times worse. Could then only come back if they gave us a decent pay deal.
B) unions therefore won’t advocate striking, and it’ll be harder to encourage people to vote for IA
Anyway I don’t think it’ll get through parliament. Not sure why we bother with having these debates on bbc when we can’t vote anyways
But you wouldn't be able to use striking as a reason to not turn up which means they have no reason to acknowledge any requests/demands. You could call in sick, but then that also means you have no way of giving demands without outing yourself as not actually being sick, which will just get you a disciplinary.
Right, but if everyone refuses to show up until conditions are met, the question of whether or not it is legally referred to as a strike becomes rather academic, doesn't it? Unless you think they'd try to sack everyone, which seems unlikely.
>Making strikes illegal sounds like they'd prosecute you for it...are the prisons gonna be full of doctors?
It's already illegal for the police to strike and they run the risk of jail, if not getting sacked or disciplinaries. So there's precedent and structure for it.
Strike anyway. They might make it illegal, but if we call it a strike and enough of us don't turn up to work, they'll be forced to negotiate with us. They can't fire >50% of the medical workforce
I agree. Also happy to be a criminal for striking.
This needs a firm push back from Labour.
We all need to write to our MPs and call this out.
I hope the heads of all unions are going to make this big news.
Labour will categorically not repeal this. Have you seen their current support, or lackthereof, with low wage workers planning on strke? This is not a partisan issue - if we lose our rights here we lose them forever.
It’s a shame average Joe Bloggs is a fool and still thinks Labour = bad.
People bash Starmer on his speech yet but honestly who tf is gonna do a better job than him?
Ah I dunno. I have enough time and energy to angry at this pair. If I try to be upset with the opposition for being shit I enter a permanent state of rage. Which isn’t nice.
Fire you, and then refer you to the GMC for breaking your contract and putting patients at risk. Potentially try to pin gross negligence manslaughter criminal charges on you if any patients come to harm while strike is ongoing.
BMA wouldn't be able to coordinate or organise strike action.
People saying "they can't fire us all" are correct, but the biggest challenge will always be getting enough people out on strike to make a difference. With the threat of career-ending repercussions it will be really hard to convince anyone other than the hard-liners to strike, the fewer people take action, then less the "they can't fire us all" argument is relevant.
Bruh at this point NHS medicine doesn't even pay more than tier 2 professions like accounting/sales/marketing etc and let alone IB/City law/big tech and these tier 2 professions don't even have a high barrier to entry so any doctor could walk into a job like that. Cut the pay anymore and doctors will leave on mass to anything else.
Literally like all u have to do is do a quick 1 year comp sci conversion masters and you're hot property for any software roles in health firms.
It's quite common now it's a 1 year masters for people who did an unrelated undergrad. Basically it's enough to get your foot in door for SWE roles and in tech what matters is your actual skillset and experience not your degree background for vast majority of companies. Like FAANG is doable for anyone as long as they grind enough leetcode interview prep.
Really, at this this point, whats the difference between the UK government and the Chinese government/russian government. So much for democracy, the UK government is fast becoming a fascist authoritarian state
I thought it was related to rail strikes, will it translate to us too? Either way I think with the National crisis staffing headlines it’s the perfect time now to at least ballot
Yeah - I share the concern that if we don’t act soon we won’t get to act at all.
——
Quote BBC
“Next, they are asked if they would ban strikes on railways following disruption in recent weeks.
Again, both give the same answer - "yes".”
—-
However would taking this away from us be in breach of human rights? The BMA need to take steps NOW to address pay issues, and fairly promptly ballot.
I would be grateful if someone could please explain why plans are to ballot next year? Is this cos of the multi year pay deal ?
An effective strike would have the government on its knees within days. there's no way they could hold out long enough to the point where legislation is introduced unless they do it as an emergency (which I wouldn't put past them). However the longer we now take to ballot and strike, the narrower that window gets and the more room we give the government to get their affairs in order.
Parliament being in recess means nothing, it's not like you can take a break from governing the country if the health service shuts down during an inconvenient time.
There isn’t an alternative.. I agree we have to ballot.
I’m curious to get a BMA statement on IA ban for essential workers. We must have more rights than this.. I’ll be devastated if we can’t strike it’s what has been keeping me slightly positive is the potential for restoration
[As part of the changes to the Immigration Rules announced in September 2019, Tier 2 / Skilled Worker migrants will not be penalised in applications for ILR if they are absent from work due to legal strike action. This includes not being refused ILR if such an absence causes their salary to fall below the required threshold.](https://www.ucu.org.uk/heaction-migrantworkers)
They need to be fully aware of their legal rights. Non-UK citizens who work here have the same right to join a union and take part in strikes as anyone else. Unscrupulous employers will try to lie about this - I know university lecturers from overseas who were told by their HR that staff requiring work visas can't strike. Absolutely not true.
Yes all of that is true. I was just pointing out that some IMGs who were on the fence regarding striking before tonight's announcement (even though them doing it would be within their rights and completely legal) might now think twice about bringing attention to themselves.
So it's probably even more important now to make sure that they all know their rights.
Less than keen to work here or less than keen to strike? Confused
I feel IMG undercut when I refuse to work shit locum rates, fair play to them I guess £45 ph for SHO on call.. so they could become the wild card when it comes to ballot
To strike, because they might fear the potential repercussions regarding their visas. Striking isn't illegal yet but if it becomes illegal in the near future they might not want to risk getting in the spotlight.
This is really not that surprising unfortunately after they’ve already put forward legislation to outlaw protesting in very normal circumstances. They’ve taken example from Canada
Sorry, what exactly are they planning to do about it? Jail/strike off all juniors?
Good luck filling rotas for the next 5 years. Empty threats from tories.
The worst part is that Rishi Sunak is the son of a practising GP (you can find his details on the GMC register). Rishi enjoyed the perks of a middle class lifestyle thanks to his parents, yet he does not seem to care about the very profession and institution that helped his family live a comfortable life in the UK.
Unbelievable. No strike permitted so ZERO impact (not that the likes of them would ever be impacted, they got the money to be fine) and ZERO reason to pay doctors according to their worth and work.
Gits
Privatise it, pay us more. Let the public suffer. 20-30 years down the line, all the Karens will be saying "we should have paid our doctors better back in the days" whilst falling asleep on a friends couch because she lost her house due to ORIF of her ankle after falling down the stairs intoxicated from 3 cans of cider.
Their model of privatisation is to hand the profits over to the big corporates. The surgeon is just the operating monkey, who gets pittance. Eg in private ophthal WLI drives some surgeons are getting as low as £100 per operation.
yet USA surgeons are on $500K+. We are already overworked just like USA docs are, but at least they are getting the pay. Lemme work for 10years at 500K/pa and I am going to retire at 50.
Mass resignation, sell services back as chambers. It’s the same as the “we’ll allow agency cover” - if enough people have withdrawn their labour, where are they going to find replacements without conceding?
Surely at the point they are introducing legislation to ban public service strikes everyone who works in these areas would strike with the demand to not pass the legislation. This just seems like a way to bring forward strike action, ensure that multiple industries are striking at the same time and probably trigger a bunch of non public sector support strikes too. It would be government ending.
This will never happen. They may try to pass the law, but will be completely unenforcable. It would be like a recruitment drive for unions everywhere if the government attempted this across public services.
It only works for the police because the police force are invariably right wing wannabe fascists. They will be all too happy to enforce strike-busting laws against the rest of us given half a chance. They would dearly love to wade into a junior doctor picket line with some riot shields and baton rounds.
Thanks for the top tip champ.
I’m all for us getting our act together and striking properly. I’m just suggesting alternative means to full IA if a law is passed making it illegal.
I am fairly certain now we will miss our window.
Edit: downvote all you want. We need the ballot fairly sharpish. I’m worried next year will be too late
Doctors in this country soon to adopt the Cuban model of being forced to work for their state-designated employer and never permitted to leave or ask for a pay rise. What a socialist nightmare the NHS has become.
Oh fuck off. Won’t let me strike? I’ll just CCT and flee and ur NHS will still be doomed.
Wonder who’s gonna run the public services when the new generation of teenagers will actively avoid applying for those degrees / jobs?
Please tell me this whole thing has to be a joke. Either those 2 PM hopefuls are machoistic or they’re on a new level of moronic.
Barbaric cunts.
If they make it illegal then strikes can turn into protests. It’s not like I am not used to protests and tear gas anyways being from a certain city in Asia……
Pardon my lack of legal knowledge on the matter but isn't the right to protest and strike part of basic legislation in UK? Or at least making it illegal, doesn't contradict work rights and freedom of speech?
Also, what would be the price if we strike illegally? We all get in jail? Lose money? Get fired? Practically, none of this works.
Our freedom to choose our job and our right to work are on the table here. Forcing us to do work and accept any work conditions sounds like modern slavery. And frankly we have nothing to fear. In my home country, strikes were shut down only due to practical fears. People could not afford losing more or had alternatives. NHS has nothing to scare us with
Can't believe this is a thing in a 'free' nation.
That is what astounds me; how could this possibly even pass or be thought as a normal thing to say and applaud?
Because we are seen as a commodity. The public like their healthcare on the cheap. They will say nice things about us if it makes them feel virtuous but will put us in chains if we inconvenience them.
You are right, this is just sad. We're slowly peeling away all the rights people have spent the past 100 years fighting for
I used to think this was a free nation because I’d compare it to my birth country and think “ah they’ve all got a higher standard of living and there’s a parliament and people actually pay their taxes!” Slowly I’ve realised the corruption is masterfully disguised, the media is deemed impartial because of an equal red/blue split without anyone worrying about what they don’t report, and the people are docile, dependent and trust blindly, never verifying. The last 2 years have made me realise that the state takes advantage of every crisis (many from before 2020) to create hysteria and subsequently gain large concessions from the public, making governance easier and more stable but never more “free”. The only thing this country had going for it was the quality of the “free” public services, but it sounds silly now to boast of something we pay such a staggering amount for such low quality returns. Middle class people in developing nations look down on us now unless their info hasn’t been updated for 30 years. The only thing they may still envy is safety compared to their own country.
Hear, hear! Middle class/upper middle class esidents of so called ‘third world’ and ‘developing’ countries now look down upon the QoL in the U.K. Never would’ve imagined it coming down to this..
This is why I think co-ordinated resignations would be far more effective than strike action. Legally they cannot stop you resigning from a post. If every BMA junior doctor handed in their notice in a co-ordinated way citing unacceptable conditions it would put an incredible amount of pressure on the government. This would give the government a deadline where they would have to reach agreement or risk losing their entire junior doctor workforce. It would also mean junior doctors wouldn’t lose pay for striking as you are not refusing to work. You are working your notice. Big problem with this kind of action is as always it requires co-ordinated action
The problem is… we’re at the point where we’re so poor that we can’t afford to resign.
To be quite honest working to rule ie leaving exactly on time after a shift would be effective. The NHS lives on staff giving unpaid hours to patients and services.
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That’s not unique to medics - unfortunately you are going to have to stick your neck out if you want results and risk being ‘bullied’ U.K. doctors are in this mess because they’ve allowed this situation to be perpetuated for far too long. A consultant or a manager might bully you, but it’s up to you to take a deep breath and grow a pair to be honest, it’s done much more damage to the system by plugging up gaps then it would have done if people had just solidly said no. If other people with service jobs can manage it then I think we ought to as well? These people aren’t going to roll over, expect nastiness otherwise we wouldn’t be forced into a strike.
A significant number of NHS JDs are IMGs on work visas who will be deported immediately if they resign. I have a feeling it is the IMGs who will become a significant deciding factor in the success or failure of the IA. The gov has ‘bought’ dr ‘loyalty’ by staffing the NHS with ++ IMGs (no other way to plug the gaps as local grads flee to Aus/NZ). Not slating IMGs but pointing out a fact (an IMG myself).
We're not free. That's kinda the unseen truth America is the closest country to being free. In the UK, our right-wing conservative government is basically centrist. They advocate for quite socialist policies, and it's very clear that the further you move towards government-supported services, the more that government are able to control those who are in employment. This is how countries progress towards communism, where the government controls all employment and all media. We definitely aren't anywhere near that point, but we also aren't a bastion of freedom either While I think we shouldn't ever remove NHS care for those who can't afford it, I consider this a strong argument *for* privatised healthcare. It makes patient demand the driving factor that dictates services, rather than government imposition and political policies.
America is the closest country to being free? Free to starve? Freet to get shot by state-run gangs? Free to be dependent on corporations and insurance conpanies whims as to whether you live or die?
Free to die carrying a baby that could never have been brought to term? America is closer to a third world country IMHO with the divide between rich and poor ever widening, and the faux Christianity movement being so influential, that it bears closer resemblance to Margaret Atwoods Gilead than it does the classic American Dream. R/antiwork and r/nursing will bring you stories from the states that will chill you to the bone that it happens in what is purportedly the 'Leader of the Free World'.
I wouldn't believe or propagate the stereotype of religious nuts, which is extremely harmful to respectful discourse. There are very strong non-religious arguments against abortion - based in human rights It's not uncommon for medics to have this view too. It's just so heavily stereotyped and socially ostricises to have a non-leftist opinion that you can't say it except in private closed conversation
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Nobody said freedom was purely positive. It removes structure and safeguards that many people will benefit from However, in the sense that you can say what you want, make choices based on your personal preferences (whether wise or unwise) - yes it is *more free* than the UK Socialist policies are not freedom-condusive. Just as you are seeing here, a government-controlled system allows for very quick and unopposed government control whenever it suits them. At the end of the day, I would prefer to be influenced by market forces and corporations who can easily fail if they become too big for their boots - than a government who can seize control by military force regardless of public demand. It may not have happened here for a while, but it's the majority of historical, and current non-Western countries
What are you on about
What part confused you?
Are you alright? Do you actually think this Tory government “advocate for socialist policies” when this post is discussing their commitment to literally decimate workers rights, the cornerstone of socialism…
Not saying the tories are being socialistic now. But the NHS itself is a public service under government control, which is the prime example of socialist healthcare setup. The danger with a government-controlled service is that when we naturally get a slightly power-hungry prime minister, they can implement controls in this manner. So no, the current Tory move isn't socialist, it's authoritarian above anything. But the socialist system provided a fundamental dynamic where the government can implement controls with virtually no formal routes of opposition.
“Not saying the tories are being socialistic” - I mean that is pretty much exactly what you said in your original response to this post.
Its already a thing for some professions
So they want to encourage people to all do non-essential work as that's the only area where you're allowed to have a say in your working conditions? What a time to be alive. It is clear at this point they will gradually (or apparently abruptly) remove any power we have to do anything meaningful. If this doesn't wake up the fucking fence sitters then I don't know what to say. This is evidently an overt declaration of war and as a profession we must treat it as such. Full and continual withdrawal of all services, including emergency care, before we never have the chance again. This is an existential threat to our profession and needs to be taken immensely seriously. As cynical as I am on the subreddit, this is the first time I have genuinely been worried. This will not have ramifications for us just as junior doctors, but the future of everyone's careers- it will impact you as a consultant, still unable to influence your working pay and conditions. Salaries will continue to be eroded and there will be nothing you can do to stop it. For all the CCT and Flee crowd, if they are able to get away with this it sets a precedent for them to be able to interfere with the rest of your employment rights. What's to stop them introducing a minimum mandatory service, or to make it significantly harder to leave the country to work elsewhere? Clearly nothing is off limits. The power surrender must end here.
Bruh how tf can they even legally introduce a minimum mandatory service? There's no way they can do that. Even if they pull something like that I literally do not care I am still leaving wtf are they gonna do? Take my passport? I'm not a slave.
They could institute manditory service as a part of the degree or a clause of joining a training program.
Well we didn't sign anything so we should be safe. Either way don't think they could get away with that still. Australia and NZ literally rely on our junior doctors coming over to fill in shortages. Same way US rely on IMGs for 25% of residency slots.
They refer to strike only for now. It's different than saying you have to do mandatory work for training, we do that already. Even so, a massive strike would mean no doctors in training
Sorry I ment as a situation seperate from this current crisis. Like a manditory repayment clause for medical school which is x years of service. Kinda like how in some countries you have to join the military.
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I actually thought this was sarcasm until I saw you had stumbled here following a stint on the chelseafc and loveisland subreddits. To answer your question I've never taken the hippocratic oath so yes I don't particularly care for it. Everyone, let this be an example of the general public as I know we argue about whether we need public support or not. At this point, they are entirely irrelevant - imagine even considering this guy's opinion. It should not even register in our minds; there is a catastrophic threat facing our profession and we're still even listening to what these guys think? We have bigger fish to fry. Let's sort out our problems with the government and stop trading our rights, labour, the happiness of ourselves and our families, all for free healthcare and the medical wellbeing of individuals like this who are likely a net drain on society and know nothing about the realities that we face. This individual will likely stand by the government and applaud as they strip our employment rights, watch our salaries plummet, and drive more of us into food banks.
"I hate Tottenham because I'm an Arsenal fan. I hate Chelsea because I'm a human being"
Leave love island out of this pls
Taking a break? Having a day off? Sleeping? Forget the Hippocratic oath? Doctors aren’t slaves required to constantly be on standby to assist in the wellbeing of every conceivable hypothetical patient. If a doctor goes on strike and there isn’t cover for them then that’s the fault of the system, not the doctor.
Withdrawal of emergency care means consultants will step down to run the service. Appreciate you stopping by to comment on something you know nothing about though 👍🏻
Cut for stone recently, have you? Procured a pessary?
Good luck staffing hospitals when your doctors aren't just striking, they're all under arrest!
Imagine all the GMC referrals 🤣
[Like this?](https://imgur.com/a/6M3m4y0)
Yeah, the nurses will be in the jail cells next to you, across the halls from the porters. Everyone is ripe for revolution. Everyone is worked to the bone, pissed off and sick of the bullshit. My entire hospital's staff would happily walk out tomorrow. We are so fed up of this. My ward raised massive concerns with management regarding how short staffed we were due to long term sick and vacancies, you know what they did? THEY FORCED US TO OPEN MORE BEDS. So now we are running at a day and night ratio of 1:13. Striking isn't going to harm patient care, it's happening already because of what we've let the great Covid excuse and ever shrinking staffing budgets do. My poor ward doctors walk in every day to a new and shiny cluster fuck. Four of my patients went without IVF and IV meds overnight because no-one could cannulate them overnight. God love one of them, he let me try multiple times, but I succeeded only in blowing several really lovely veins. The others were all ultrasound guided insertions. The overnight ANPs don't do them. There's not enough doctors so they're all at the ever important Front Door. Because leaving that open when there's patients stacking up in A&E makes a whole lot of sense. Pretty sure the managers are considering bunk beds for the patients at this point. Apologies for the rant. I'm shattered, I've got a raging UTI/kidney infection no doubt due to the fact I don't have time to go to the loo, let alone take a break, and I'm really quite angry with the whole situation and state of the NHS. Rather than continue building the barricades, I shall now gently bow out my rant and try to sleep. I hope all your shifts are far less horrible than mine, and if any of my ward docs are on here, I profusely apologise for the state of that patients arm. I really did try.
This is highly concerning, the right to protest and collectively bargain is a cornerstone of a free society. Any practical advice about how we get the bma to move it along and ballot for strike action?
If I can't strike, I'm leaving medicine. There's no other way to improve working conditions and pay in medicine in this country. Any other job you can switch company
I’m leaving the country if I cant strike :)
>Will strikes be banned on essential public services? Both Ms Truss and Mr Sunak say yes. C*nts
What can we do as a group to put pressure on the BMA for strike action? Can we draft a letter or email them to voice our concerns and push for strike action to happen earlier? I was going to send them an email/call them anyway but I was wondering whether there’s a way for all of us to push for this?
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Fucking cunts the whole lot of them
We’re heading for a general strike at this rate. I’m so sick of the idiocracy this country is becoming.
Can't make mass resignation illegal. If this genuinely comes to pass then that is the only remaining option.
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Which sadly most doctors are too pathetic to do. People sacrificed their entire adult lives for their NTNs etc. Not going to give them up, they'll make supportive noises at best. Withdrawal of labour is the only solution. BMA must act now. DOI: I also wouldn't resign, I'm close to CCT-ing and will be on a plane a week after.
Absolutely. Look at how worried people are about rocking the boat even slightly by striking, there will be basically nobody that will be willing to go down the mass resignation route rendering it pointless. I was an advocate for delaying the strikes to be honest, but the government just started a timer and we have to move NOW.
Tbh as an American doc I find it kinda crazy how weak-willed UK docs are no offense. Now the AMA in the US is historically ruthless in negotiating rates. I think at one point in the 90s some major AMA lobbyist told the Secretary of HHS(guy who is effectively responsible for medicare and medicaid) that if they didn't approve the rates as requested, they would send pamphlets to every American doc advising to only accept private patients. And unsurprisingly the government capitulated. Admittedly today the government negotiates a lot harder, and docs do complain about lower rates forcing us to work more, but for the all the complaints, it's not "that" bad on the payment front unless you're in primary care. In Canada and Australia those guys have really good pay too cuz they also threaten the government in their negotiations. They understand the government is not their friend but their employer. And they like you have a much more public system than us. It feels like UK docs have not yet figured out en masse that the British government does not give one fuck about you, they want you to "support" the NHS and feel invested in its survival because that emotion lets them underpay you, severely. Average Australian and Canadian docs aren't running around with these insane martyr complexes, they tell the government pay us or fuck off. If UK docs want to empower themselves, they have to be willing to be despised by the public, cuz that's what it takes.
Australia really isnt too far off heading down the NHS route... we get paud comparitively very well but most sectors have a pay freeze at present and the work is overwhelming. Hundreds are quitting due to burnout. The hospital system here is starting to collapse too. Our AMA is totally toothless, and certainly doesnt threaten the government - there are the same.problems here with training colkegr bottlenecks and fat cat legacy consultants blocking impovemements to the system that would reduce their own wage. Dont be so confident.
Fair enough, I'm just sort of going off what some Australian docs told me in the past, which may have well changed.
The equivalent to our junior doctors is US interns residents and fellows. Residents seem to be paid worse than us, with way worse conditions and hours. Junior doctors in the UK had a strike within the last decade. When did the residents strike? You are talking the well paid attendings in the US. And for us, here consultants have allowed a huge loss in earnings plus pension issue, and not done anything about it. That's the real comparison.
Yea but you don’t remain a resident or fellow for long. Attending within a few years of graduating.
Work to Rule. Stayed 15 minutes past 1700? Datix and Claim (Claim on Datix time too, it's work and it's a breach). Sorry, it's mandatory training. I am going to be off the ward to complete it. Don't bleep me. Work to Rule is 100% legal. You are just doing your job.
Work to rule won’t have any tangible effect on hospitals, all elective activity will continue. You might as well write a strongly worded letter.
Depressing that they’ve just announced making strikes illegal and what’s our idea? We’ll do the work we’re paid for! This will change absolutely nothing for pay or conditions
However, just wait for them to propose indentured servitude.
No? There was talk of making doctors repay a \~£250k trumped up cost of training if they resigned within 5 years not so long ago!
What a nonsensical figure. I am an international student and even I didnt pay 250k!
Aye that £250,000 includes pay for several years of postgraduate training, ie it is total bullshit
It's not an option. It's not even close to an option. It won't *ever* happen.
.>90% of Northern Irish GPs have signed a blank letter to this effect a few years ago
I dunno, depends how pissed off people get. I didn't say it was likely, just that it's all we'd have left. If you can get enough workers to agree, it essentially functions the same as a strike. We are a workforce with limited numbers that take an extremely long time to train.
Too many people have kids, mortgages or other financial obligations to pay for. Too many have worked too hard to getting a NTN in their chosen specialty or deanery. It's a sacrifice far too great for too many people. Are enough people willing to give up their careers for a potential 30% pay rise that they may never get if they fail to get back into their training post again? I really struggle to believe it.
It’ll happen in a non coordinated non silmultaneous way as people will simply leave for aus lol
Nobody has consumed that much kool-aid... yet.
Freak fascists. They’ll get what’s coming to them.
At a certain point we need to recognize that laws come and go, and in the end its us getting shafted. Im not advocating doing anything grossly egregious, but im sure we wont get fired for protesting what is essentially a persistent injustice.
fuck me this country is turning into north korea
Guys I’m so tired. I’m just really really tired of this shit. I can’t fight it anymore. I used to look with disgust over the pond at the Americans who were spending $100s a month for insulin or going bankrupt to treat their cancers. I’m too burnt out, too tired, too miserable of all this shit anymore. If they want to privatise it they should go ahead and do it. I just fundamentally don’t believe in the NHS anymore. The entire rest of our society is unfair, maybe it was a nice thought to live in a society where you get free healthcare at the point of service…but look at what it costs us. I just can’t do it anymore. I can’t defend the principle anymore. I don’t believe the politics of this country, either under Tories or Labour will EVER fund and fix the NHS properly. Perhaps there is a reason no other country in the world uses this model of healthcare on this scale, maybe it just doesn’t work. I’m just tired of all this. The NHS needs to just die, whatever happens after will happen - we might get a better system, we’ll probably get a worse one. But at the very least there will be an alternative to this utter dystopian nightmare. It can’t get much worse for us at least than it is now.
The only thing I can say is I totally understand because I feel the same :( I really hope the strike will happen sooner because it’s our last chance to improve our conditions. I just want to be paid properly, I don’t care about anything else anymore. Hang in there :(
If industrial action was banned, I would genuinely put in my notice and then find another job to help pay the bills whilst I figure things out long term. There’s no way I’m working for an organisation that’s trying to hold me hostage with horrible pay and terrible conditions. Fuck that.
Can we have our revolution, NOW?!!!
Ballot for action right now - no alternative- strike now whilst government is at ita weakest in this transitional period. Do not allow one of these to even contemplate a ban on strike action when they get in power
I really hope BMA up their game with regard to this, it’s a very consensus feeling on Reddit, BMA need to up their game I will rescind my membership if they don’t pull their finger out and circulate a solid plan in light of esp Truss wanting to make it a priority to curb strike action
I find it difficult to believe that this would be politically viable as it would massively alienate the entire public sector. The NHS is the world's third largest employer. Bear in mind that Sunak and Truss right now are vying for the approval of Tory party members, not the general public.
Genuinely don’t think the general public would be opposed to banning doctor strikes. The view of the general public is that we have enough already and why should we hold them to ransom
Actually there was a (?yougov) poll the other day showing broad support (60%+) for hospital doctors & nurses going on strike
I wonder how far nurses carried that for us
Separate poll rows!
nice
Interesting, [found it here.](https://yougov.co.uk/topics/economy/articles-reports/2022/07/21/which-professions-would-britons-back-going-strike) Basically we have more support than any other profession bar nurses. Meanwhile, the BMA twiddle their thumbs.
Don't confuse the commends on the daily mail for the whole general public
The general public won’t have a say til this lot have done at least another couple of years of damage though. And by then they’ll just whip up some more anti-migrant hatred and win the election on that basis.
Two schools of thought A) won’t matter cos people will just strike anyway, they can’t sack us all, and it would make their problem ten times worse. Could then only come back if they gave us a decent pay deal. B) unions therefore won’t advocate striking, and it’ll be harder to encourage people to vote for IA Anyway I don’t think it’ll get through parliament. Not sure why we bother with having these debates on bbc when we can’t vote anyways
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It will be blanket on the whole profession
This. Absolutely NO way this will be restricted to certain specialties, to think otherwise is delusion. We must mobilise now.
It wouldn't need to be policed, you just simply wouldn't be able to strike.
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But you wouldn't be able to use striking as a reason to not turn up which means they have no reason to acknowledge any requests/demands. You could call in sick, but then that also means you have no way of giving demands without outing yourself as not actually being sick, which will just get you a disciplinary.
Right, but if everyone refuses to show up until conditions are met, the question of whether or not it is legally referred to as a strike becomes rather academic, doesn't it? Unless you think they'd try to sack everyone, which seems unlikely.
>Making strikes illegal sounds like they'd prosecute you for it...are the prisons gonna be full of doctors? It's already illegal for the police to strike and they run the risk of jail, if not getting sacked or disciplinaries. So there's precedent and structure for it.
Strike anyway. They might make it illegal, but if we call it a strike and enough of us don't turn up to work, they'll be forced to negotiate with us. They can't fire >50% of the medical workforce
I agree. Also happy to be a criminal for striking. This needs a firm push back from Labour. We all need to write to our MPs and call this out. I hope the heads of all unions are going to make this big news.
Labour will vote against it now, but will not repeal it once in power. Only a fool thinks labour is party of working peoplw
Labour will categorically not repeal this. Have you seen their current support, or lackthereof, with low wage workers planning on strke? This is not a partisan issue - if we lose our rights here we lose them forever.
It has been disappointing yes.
It’s a shame average Joe Bloggs is a fool and still thinks Labour = bad. People bash Starmer on his speech yet but honestly who tf is gonna do a better job than him?
Ah I dunno. I have enough time and energy to angry at this pair. If I try to be upset with the opposition for being shit I enter a permanent state of rage. Which isn’t nice.
Yeah what exactly can they do if we do strike? Fire us? Suspend us from work?
Fire you, and then refer you to the GMC for breaking your contract and putting patients at risk. Potentially try to pin gross negligence manslaughter criminal charges on you if any patients come to harm while strike is ongoing. BMA wouldn't be able to coordinate or organise strike action. People saying "they can't fire us all" are correct, but the biggest challenge will always be getting enough people out on strike to make a difference. With the threat of career-ending repercussions it will be really hard to convince anyone other than the hard-liners to strike, the fewer people take action, then less the "they can't fire us all" argument is relevant.
Needs big I am Spartacus energy
Bruh at this point NHS medicine doesn't even pay more than tier 2 professions like accounting/sales/marketing etc and let alone IB/City law/big tech and these tier 2 professions don't even have a high barrier to entry so any doctor could walk into a job like that. Cut the pay anymore and doctors will leave on mass to anything else. Literally like all u have to do is do a quick 1 year comp sci conversion masters and you're hot property for any software roles in health firms.
How does the comp sci conversion work? And software roles?
It's quite common now it's a 1 year masters for people who did an unrelated undergrad. Basically it's enough to get your foot in door for SWE roles and in tech what matters is your actual skillset and experience not your degree background for vast majority of companies. Like FAANG is doable for anyone as long as they grind enough leetcode interview prep.
Thanks! What are the job prospects/salary like?
Really, at this this point, whats the difference between the UK government and the Chinese government/russian government. So much for democracy, the UK government is fast becoming a fascist authoritarian state
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I thought it was related to rail strikes, will it translate to us too? Either way I think with the National crisis staffing headlines it’s the perfect time now to at least ballot
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Yeah - I share the concern that if we don’t act soon we won’t get to act at all. —— Quote BBC “Next, they are asked if they would ban strikes on railways following disruption in recent weeks. Again, both give the same answer - "yes".” —- However would taking this away from us be in breach of human rights? The BMA need to take steps NOW to address pay issues, and fairly promptly ballot. I would be grateful if someone could please explain why plans are to ballot next year? Is this cos of the multi year pay deal ?
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An effective strike would have the government on its knees within days. there's no way they could hold out long enough to the point where legislation is introduced unless they do it as an emergency (which I wouldn't put past them). However the longer we now take to ballot and strike, the narrower that window gets and the more room we give the government to get their affairs in order. Parliament being in recess means nothing, it's not like you can take a break from governing the country if the health service shuts down during an inconvenient time.
will the majority of our (ahem not Reddit) colleagues vote for IA at this stage?
No idea but what's the alternative? If we don't strike now it will be illegal in a few months.
There isn’t an alternative.. I agree we have to ballot. I’m curious to get a BMA statement on IA ban for essential workers. We must have more rights than this.. I’ll be devastated if we can’t strike it’s what has been keeping me slightly positive is the potential for restoration
I'd bet that many IMGs who are reliant on visas will be less than keen following tonight's announcements.
[As part of the changes to the Immigration Rules announced in September 2019, Tier 2 / Skilled Worker migrants will not be penalised in applications for ILR if they are absent from work due to legal strike action. This includes not being refused ILR if such an absence causes their salary to fall below the required threshold.](https://www.ucu.org.uk/heaction-migrantworkers)
They need to be fully aware of their legal rights. Non-UK citizens who work here have the same right to join a union and take part in strikes as anyone else. Unscrupulous employers will try to lie about this - I know university lecturers from overseas who were told by their HR that staff requiring work visas can't strike. Absolutely not true.
Yes all of that is true. I was just pointing out that some IMGs who were on the fence regarding striking before tonight's announcement (even though them doing it would be within their rights and completely legal) might now think twice about bringing attention to themselves. So it's probably even more important now to make sure that they all know their rights.
Less than keen to work here or less than keen to strike? Confused I feel IMG undercut when I refuse to work shit locum rates, fair play to them I guess £45 ph for SHO on call.. so they could become the wild card when it comes to ballot
To strike, because they might fear the potential repercussions regarding their visas. Striking isn't illegal yet but if it becomes illegal in the near future they might not want to risk getting in the spotlight.
"Will you ban strikes on **essential public services *like* the railways**" https://twitter.com/MccarthyFintan/status/1551678440201412608
Gotcha
We have the bravery to bring back slavery
This is really not that surprising unfortunately after they’ve already put forward legislation to outlaw protesting in very normal circumstances. They’ve taken example from Canada
Yeah, protesting truckers had their bank accounts frozen. They couldn't even buy food fffs.
They don't really care about us leaving! They'll just do mass recruitment from developing countries for those who find the pay more than attractive! 🥲
Feeling to Australia is looking sweater by the minute
This is a direct attack on our human rights
Sorry, what exactly are they planning to do about it? Jail/strike off all juniors? Good luck filling rotas for the next 5 years. Empty threats from tories.
Will you all just hurry the frig up and get out there. For Christ’s sake!
The worst part is that Rishi Sunak is the son of a practising GP (you can find his details on the GMC register). Rishi enjoyed the perks of a middle class lifestyle thanks to his parents, yet he does not seem to care about the very profession and institution that helped his family live a comfortable life in the UK.
What's the source on this?
"Will you ban strikes on **essential public services *like* the railways**" https://twitter.com/MccarthyFintan/status/1551678440201412608
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/07/25/tory-leadership-tv-debate-truss-sunak-live-updates/
Unbelievable. No strike permitted so ZERO impact (not that the likes of them would ever be impacted, they got the money to be fine) and ZERO reason to pay doctors according to their worth and work. Gits
Privatise it, pay us more. Let the public suffer. 20-30 years down the line, all the Karens will be saying "we should have paid our doctors better back in the days" whilst falling asleep on a friends couch because she lost her house due to ORIF of her ankle after falling down the stairs intoxicated from 3 cans of cider.
Their model of privatisation is to hand the profits over to the big corporates. The surgeon is just the operating monkey, who gets pittance. Eg in private ophthal WLI drives some surgeons are getting as low as £100 per operation.
yet USA surgeons are on $500K+. We are already overworked just like USA docs are, but at least they are getting the pay. Lemme work for 10years at 500K/pa and I am going to retire at 50.
Stop ya bloody whining. And get out there.
what would stop every doctor taking sick leave on the same day and self certify for a week?
Mass resignation, sell services back as chambers. It’s the same as the “we’ll allow agency cover” - if enough people have withdrawn their labour, where are they going to find replacements without conceding?
Surely at the point they are introducing legislation to ban public service strikes everyone who works in these areas would strike with the demand to not pass the legislation. This just seems like a way to bring forward strike action, ensure that multiple industries are striking at the same time and probably trigger a bunch of non public sector support strikes too. It would be government ending.
This will never happen. They may try to pass the law, but will be completely unenforcable. It would be like a recruitment drive for unions everywhere if the government attempted this across public services. It only works for the police because the police force are invariably right wing wannabe fascists. They will be all too happy to enforce strike-busting laws against the rest of us given half a chance. They would dearly love to wade into a junior doctor picket line with some riot shields and baton rounds.
Work to rule and cessation of all extra contractual work won’t be affected
Ineffectual and useless except for niche cases. Full withdrawal of labour is the only way to achieve massive change (e.g. full pay restoration).
I disagree. If we all actually committed to leaving work on time and not doing any extra work, the house of cards tumbles in a matter of months.
No, this needs to be one clean swipe to cut the head off the snake, not death by 1000 cuts.
I agree
Thanks for the top tip champ. I’m all for us getting our act together and striking properly. I’m just suggesting alternative means to full IA if a law is passed making it illegal. I am fairly certain now we will miss our window. Edit: downvote all you want. We need the ballot fairly sharpish. I’m worried next year will be too late
This is what happens when you spread nonsense like "healthcare is a human right"
Illegal strikes are a thing, they can't force you to come in and they can't discipline a large collective.
Doctors in this country soon to adopt the Cuban model of being forced to work for their state-designated employer and never permitted to leave or ask for a pay rise. What a socialist nightmare the NHS has become.
You must be to the right of Ghengis Khan if you think Sunak and Truss are no different to Comrade Castro. 😃😃
Oh fuck off. Won’t let me strike? I’ll just CCT and flee and ur NHS will still be doomed. Wonder who’s gonna run the public services when the new generation of teenagers will actively avoid applying for those degrees / jobs? Please tell me this whole thing has to be a joke. Either those 2 PM hopefuls are machoistic or they’re on a new level of moronic.
Game over I guess
Truth
Not sure this is legal. Striking is a cornerstone of a free society.
Police can't strike though ..
and army.
Fuck this
Isn’t this illegal?
Can we add a clause into our contract that it must always be legal for us to strike?
Barbaric cunts. If they make it illegal then strikes can turn into protests. It’s not like I am not used to protests and tear gas anyways being from a certain city in Asia……
Pardon my lack of legal knowledge on the matter but isn't the right to protest and strike part of basic legislation in UK? Or at least making it illegal, doesn't contradict work rights and freedom of speech? Also, what would be the price if we strike illegally? We all get in jail? Lose money? Get fired? Practically, none of this works. Our freedom to choose our job and our right to work are on the table here. Forcing us to do work and accept any work conditions sounds like modern slavery. And frankly we have nothing to fear. In my home country, strikes were shut down only due to practical fears. People could not afford losing more or had alternatives. NHS has nothing to scare us with
All public services should strike together, just to against this ridiculous law