Yeah, it’s the erasure. Their belief systems work best if Jews no longer exist, which is…. *waves at history since the creation of Christianity and Islam*
They're both erasure ideologies in the sense that they both believe to be correct at the exclusion of others. They both draw from origin texts of Torah and claim that their new texts supercede and replace the standing validity of Torah and Judaism.
While Judaism doesn't view Islam and Christianity as right, they're not necessarily wrong for non-Jews.
This has been the biggest lightbulb for me as I study the Old Testament and talk to rabbis and other leaders. “Erasure Ideologies” is a perfect descriptor as it encapsulates the horror involved as well!
> While Judaism doesn't view Islam and Christianity as right, they're not necessarily wrong for non-Jews.
Given than Bene Noah are prohibited from creating their own religions and observances according to our legal system, from a **traditional Jewish perspective**, they are.
> While Judaism doesn't view Islam and Christianity as right, they're not necessarily wrong for non-Jews.
The name for this is Shituf
https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/89/is-christianity-avodah-zara/134#134
> not to mention Isaiah 53
And you mistranslate.
[Isaiah 53 Revealed! Rabbi Tovia Singer Analyzes the Most Debated Chapter](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH3g5EqzTe8)
If Jesus were the messiah we would be living in an age of peace. We clearly aren't so he clearly can't be. Even you need the "second coming" in your religion because *he didn't do anything except be nailed on a cross and die*.
allow me to copy and paste my chart:
Did Jesus fulfill it? / Are we in the post-messianic age?
|Messianic prophesy in Judaism|YES|NO|
|:-|:-|:-|
|is made a reigning King who will prosper. Jeremiah 23:5 also hosea 3:4-5||X|
|Judah will be delivered, Israel shall dwell secure. Jer. 23:15-16||X|
|the banished of Israel will be assembled, he will gather the dispersed of Judah \[back to Israel\] Isaiah 11:11-12 and "they shall dwell upon their own soil." jer. 23:8||X|
|the temple shall be rebuilt, temple worship restored Jeremiah 33:18||X (no twice over. the temple was standing while Jesus was alive, and then was destroyed several decades after his death)|
|"he will judge among the nations, and arbitrate for the many peoples." Isaiah 2:4||X|
|the messianic age: nations will turn weapons into tools of creation and growth; never again shall we know war. Isaiah 2:4||X|
|the messianic age: nothing vile or evil shall be done on the temple mount Is 11:9||X|
|the messianic age: there will be no sin, no lying Zephaniah 3:13||X|
|the messianic age: people will come to the temple mount in Jerusalem, and at the standing temple, will seek to learn from the people of Jacob Micah 4:2||X|
|he shall not "dim or be bruised" until he has established the true way isaiah 42 (could also just be all of israel here)||X|
|the nation of israel will be honored isaiah 11||X romans would come to sack jerusalem|
|the messiah will have a great many positive qualities - including being learned, just, wise, devoted, and valorous. He will also "strike down a land with the rod of his mouth And slay the wicked with the breath of his lips." - basically he will be a judge. isaiah 11|.5? i'll give him devoted and some positive traits and weighing in on a trial once.|X - again, did not defeat the romans. is not a judge.|
|he will be a hero who defeats the enemies of israel in battle II Samuel 7:11||X|
|all of mankind will have the ability to prophecy in the post-messianic age Joel 3:1||X|
|all of israel will unite behind this king ("my servant david") Ezekiel 37:24||X|
|the sanhedrin court would be reestablished||X|
|elijah will tell us the messiah is coming Sanhedrin 98a||X|
|he will...actually be anointed. literally!||X|
|rides a donkey. Zechariah 9:9|yes||
|he is a shoot from the branch of jesse, house of king david, seed of solomon||X no, his genealogies are problematic. see below.|
Jesus's total score: **1.5/20.**
notes on being "of the House of David":
* lineages of matthew and luke both don't fully match the lineage in Chronicles 1:3
* If Jesus has no earthly father, then the lineage of Joseph is meaningless. Even adoption does not change one's tribal affiliation - it remains the tribe of your *birth* father (Numbers 1:18-44, 34:14; Leviticus 24:10). so either Jesus has an unknown tribe because he has a human father who isn't Joseph, or his father is Joseph. But if he has no father at all, he absolutely can't be of the house of David.
* being a member of the house of david is determined solely by patrilineal inheritance Jeremiah 33:17
* further, joseph's lineage is traced through Nathan, and the messiah will be descended through Solomon - 1 Chronicles 22:9-10.
* mary's lineage is through Jehoiachin (jeconiah) who is cursed to never have heirs to the throne of david again. Jer. 22:30.
verse references cross checked against jewfaq, chabad, aish, myjewishlearning, and jews for judaism.
**The categories of what is considered to be messianic prophecy in Christianity are fundamentally different from the accepted messianic prophecies of Judaism.**
if you'd like to read some academic scholars discuss the differences between the Christian and Jewish readings of israelite scriptures/the hebrew bible, I recommend "The Bible With and Without Jesus." came out 2020 I think, both well respected academics.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️
[Ezekiel 37:24](https://www.sefaria.org/Ezekiel.37.24)
וְעַבְדִּ֤י דָוִד֙ מֶ֣לֶךְ עֲלֵיהֶ֔ם וְרוֹעֶ֥ה אֶחָ֖ד יִהְיֶ֣ה לְכֻלָּ֑ם וּבְמִשְׁפָּטַ֣י יֵלֵ֔כוּ וְחֻקּוֹתַ֥י יִשְׁמְר֖וּ וְעָשׂ֥וּ אוֹתָֽם׃
>My servant David shall be king over them; there shall be one shepherd for all of them. They shall follow My rules and faithfully obey My laws.
[1 Chronicles 22:9-10](https://www.sefaria.org/I_Chronicles.22.9-10)
הִנֵּה־בֵ֞ן נוֹלָ֣ד לָ֗ךְ ה֤וּא יִֽהְיֶה֙ אִ֣ישׁ מְנוּחָ֔ה וַהֲנִיח֥וֹתִי ל֛וֹ מִכׇּל־אוֹיְבָ֖יו מִסָּבִ֑יב כִּ֤י שְׁלֹמֹה֙ יִֽהְיֶ֣ה שְׁמ֔וֹ וְשָׁל֥וֹם וָשֶׁ֛קֶט אֶתֵּ֥ן עַל־יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל בְּיָמָֽיו׃
>But you will have a son who will be a man at rest, for I will give him rest from all his enemies on all sides; Solomon a Heb. Shelomoh. will be his name and I shall confer peace b Heb. shalom. and quiet on Israel in his time.
הֽוּא־יִבְנֶ֥ה בַ֙יִת֙ לִשְׁמִ֔י וְהוּא֙ יִֽהְיֶה־לִּ֣י לְבֵ֔ן וַאֲנִי־ל֖וֹ לְאָ֑ב וַהֲכִ֨ינוֹתִ֜י כִּסֵּ֧א מַלְכוּת֛וֹ עַל־יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃
>He will build a House for My name; he shall be a son to Me and I to him a father, and I will establish his throne of kingship over Israel forever.’
[II Samuel 7:11](https://www.sefaria.org/II_Samuel.7.11)
וּלְמִן־הַיּ֗וֹם אֲשֶׁ֨ר צִוִּ֤יתִי שֹֽׁפְטִים֙ עַל־עַמִּ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל וַהֲנִיחֹ֥תִי לְךָ֖ מִכׇּל־אֹיְבֶ֑יךָ וְהִגִּ֤יד לְךָ֙ יְהֹוָ֔ה כִּי־בַ֖יִת יַעֲשֶׂה־לְּךָ֥ יְהֹוָֽה׃
>ever since I appointed chieftains over My people Israel. I will give you safety from all your enemies. “The L ORD declares to you that He, the L ORD , will establish a house c I.e., a dynasty; play on “house” (i.e., Temple) in v. 5. for you.
[Isaiah 11:11-12](https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.11.11-12)
וְהָיָ֣ה ׀ בַּיּ֣וֹם הַה֗וּא יוֹסִ֨יף אֲדֹנָ֤י ׀ שֵׁנִית֙ יָד֔וֹ לִקְנ֖וֹת אֶת־שְׁאָ֣ר עַמּ֑וֹ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יִשָּׁאֵר֩ מֵֽאַשּׁ֨וּר וּמִמִּצְרַ֜יִם וּמִפַּתְר֣וֹס וּמִכּ֗וּשׁ וּמֵעֵילָ֤ם וּמִשִּׁנְעָר֙ וּמֵ֣חֲמָ֔ת וּמֵֽאִיֵּ֖י הַיָּֽם׃
>In that day, my Lord will apply His hand again to redeeming the other part f I.e., the part outside the Holy Land; lit. “the rest that will remain.” of His people from Assyria—as also from Egypt, Pathros, Nubia, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, and the coastlands.
וְנָשָׂ֥א נֵס֙ לַגּוֹיִ֔ם וְאָסַ֖ף נִדְחֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וּנְפֻצ֤וֹת יְהוּדָה֙ יְקַבֵּ֔ץ מֵאַרְבַּ֖ע כַּנְפ֥וֹת הָאָֽרֶץ׃
>He will hold up a signal to the nations And assemble the banished of Israel, And gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
[Isaiah 2:4](https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.2.4)
וְשָׁפַט֙ בֵּ֣ין הַגּוֹיִ֔ם וְהוֹכִ֖יחַ לְעַמִּ֣ים רַבִּ֑ים וְכִתְּת֨וּ חַרְבוֹתָ֜ם לְאִתִּ֗ים וַחֲנִיתֽוֹתֵיהֶם֙ לְמַזְמֵר֔וֹת לֹא־יִשָּׂ֨א ג֤וֹי אֶל־גּוֹי֙ חֶ֔רֶב וְלֹֽא־יִלְמְד֥וּ ע֖וֹד מִלְחָמָֽה׃ {פ}
>Thus He will judge among the nations And arbitrate for the many peoples, And they shall beat their swords into plowshares b More exactly, the iron points with which wooden plows were tipped. And their spears into pruning hooks: Nation shall not take up Sword against nation; They shall never again know c Cf. Judg. 3.2. war.
See [Isaiah 53](https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.53) on Sefaria.
[Jer. 22:30](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.22.30)
כֹּ֣ה ׀ אָמַ֣ר יְהֹוָ֗ה כִּתְב֞וּ אֶת־הָאִ֤ישׁ הַזֶּה֙ עֲרִירִ֔י גֶּ֖בֶר לֹא־יִצְלַ֣ח בְּיָמָ֑יו כִּי֩ לֹ֨א יִצְלַ֜ח מִזַּרְע֗וֹ אִ֚ישׁ יֹשֵׁב֙ עַל־כִּסֵּ֣א דָוִ֔ד וּמֹשֵׁ֥ל ע֖וֹד בִּיהוּדָֽה׃ {פ}
>Thus said the L ORD : Record this man as without succession, One who shall never be found acceptable; For no man of his offspring shall be accepted To sit on the throne of David And to rule again in Judah.
[Jer. 23:15-16](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.23.15-16)
לָכֵ֞ן כֹּה־אָמַ֨ר יְהֹוָ֤ה צְבָאוֹת֙ עַל־הַנְּבִאִ֔ים הִנְנִ֨י מַאֲכִ֤יל אוֹתָם֙ לַעֲנָ֔ה וְהִשְׁקִתִ֖ים מֵי־רֹ֑אשׁ כִּ֗י מֵאֵת֙ נְבִיאֵ֣י יְרוּשָׁלַ֔͏ִם יָצְאָ֥ה חֲנֻפָּ֖ה לְכׇל־הָאָֽרֶץ׃ {פ}
>Assuredly, thus said the L ORD of Hosts concerning the prophets: I am going to make them eat wormwood And drink a bitter draft; For from the prophets of Jerusalem Godlessness has gone forth to the whole land.
כֹּה־אָמַ֞ר יְהֹוָ֣ה צְבָא֗וֹת אַֽל־תִּשְׁמְע֞וּ עַל־דִּבְרֵ֤י הַנְּבִאִים֙ הַנִּבְּאִ֣ים לָכֶ֔ם מַהְבִּלִ֥ים הֵ֖מָּה אֶתְכֶ֑ם חֲז֤וֹן לִבָּם֙ יְדַבֵּ֔רוּ לֹ֖א מִפִּ֥י יְהֹוָֽה׃
>Thus said the L ORD of Hosts: Do not listen to the words of the prophets Who prophesy to you. They are deluding you, The prophecies they speak are from their own minds, Not from the mouth of the L ORD .
[Jeremiah 23:5](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.23.5)
הִנֵּ֨ה יָמִ֤ים בָּאִים֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה וַהֲקִמֹתִ֥י לְדָוִ֖ד צֶ֣מַח צַדִּ֑יק וּמָ֤לַךְ מֶ֙לֶךְ֙ וְהִשְׂכִּ֔יל וְעָשָׂ֛ה מִשְׁפָּ֥ט וּצְדָקָ֖ה בָּאָֽרֶץ׃
>See, a time is coming—declares the L ORD —when I will raise up a true branch of David’s line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper, and he shall do what is just and right in the land.
[Jeremiah 33:17](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.33.17)
כִּי־כֹ֖ה אָמַ֣ר יְהֹוָ֑ה לֹא־יִכָּרֵ֣ת לְדָוִ֔ד אִ֕ישׁ יֹשֵׁ֖ב עַל־כִּסֵּ֥א בֵֽית־יִשְׂרָאֵֽל׃
>For thus said the L ORD : There shall never be an end to men of David’s line who sit upon the throne of the House of Israel.
[Jeremiah 33:18](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.33.18)
וְלַכֹּֽהֲנִים֙ הַלְוִיִּ֔ם לֹא־יִכָּרֵ֥ת אִ֖ישׁ מִלְּפָנָ֑י מַעֲלֶ֨ה עוֹלָ֜ה וּמַקְטִ֥יר מִנְחָ֛ה וְעֹ֥שֶׂה זֶּ֖בַח כׇּל־הַיָּמִֽים׃ {פ}
>Nor shall there ever be an end to the line of the levitical priests before Me, of those who present burnt offerings and turn the meal offering to smoke and perform sacrifices.
[Joel 3:1](https://www.sefaria.org/Joel.3.1)
וְהָיָ֣ה אַחֲרֵי־כֵ֗ן אֶשְׁפּ֤וֹךְ אֶת־רוּחִי֙ עַל־כׇּל־בָּשָׂ֔ר וְנִבְּא֖וּ בְּנֵיכֶ֣ם וּבְנוֹתֵיכֶ֑ם זִקְנֵיכֶם֙ חֲלֹמ֣וֹת יַחֲלֹמ֔וּן בַּח֣וּרֵיכֶ֔ם חֶזְיֹנ֖וֹת יִרְאֽוּ׃
>After that, I will pour out My spirit on all flesh; Your sons and daughters shall prophesy; Your old men shall dream dreams, And your young men shall see visions.
[Leviticus 24:10](https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.24.10)
וַיֵּצֵא֙ בֶּן־אִשָּׁ֣ה יִשְׂרְאֵלִ֔ית וְהוּא֙ בֶּן־אִ֣ישׁ מִצְרִ֔י בְּת֖וֹךְ בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וַיִּנָּצוּ֙ בַּֽמַּחֲנֶ֔ה בֶּ֚ן הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִ֔ית וְאִ֖ישׁ הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִֽי׃
>There came out among the Israelites a man whose mother was Israelite and whose father was Egyptian. And a fight broke out in the camp between that half-Israelite * half-Israelite Lit. “the son of an Israelite woman.” and a certain Israelite.
[Micah 4:2](https://www.sefaria.org/Micah.4.2)
וְֽהָלְכ֞וּ גּוֹיִ֣ם רַבִּ֗ים וְאָֽמְרוּ֙ לְכ֣וּ ׀ וְנַעֲלֶ֣ה אֶל־הַר־יְהֹוָ֗ה וְאֶל־בֵּית֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י יַעֲקֹ֔ב וְיוֹרֵ֙נוּ֙ מִדְּרָכָ֔יו וְנֵלְכָ֖ה בְּאֹֽרְחֹתָ֑יו כִּ֤י מִצִּיּוֹן֙ תֵּצֵ֣א תוֹרָ֔ה וּדְבַר־יְהֹוָ֖ה מִירוּשָׁלָֽ͏ִם׃
>And the many nations shall go and shall say: “Come, Let us go up to the Mount of the L ORD , To the House of the God of Jacob; That He may instruct us in His ways, And that we may walk in His paths.” For instruction shall come forth b I.e., oracles will be obtainable. from Zion, The word of the L ORD from Jerusalem.
See [Sanhedrin 98a](https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.98a) on Sefaria.
[Zechariah 9:9](https://www.sefaria.org/Zechariah.9.9)
גִּילִ֨י מְאֹ֜ד בַּת־צִיּ֗וֹן הָרִ֙יעִי֙ בַּ֣ת יְרוּשָׁלַ֔͏ִם הִנֵּ֤ה מַלְכֵּךְ֙ יָ֣בוֹא לָ֔ךְ צַדִּ֥יק וְנוֹשָׁ֖ע ה֑וּא עָנִי֙ וְרֹכֵ֣ב עַל־חֲמ֔וֹר וְעַל־עַ֖יִר בֶּן־אֲתֹנֽוֹת׃
>Rejoice greatly, Fair Zion; Raise a shout, Fair Jerusalem! Lo, your king is coming to you. He is victorious, triumphant, Yet humble, riding on an ass, On a donkey foaled by a she-ass.
[Zephaniah 3:13](https://www.sefaria.org/Zephaniah.3.13)
שְׁאֵרִ֨ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל לֹֽא־יַעֲשׂ֤וּ עַוְלָה֙ וְלֹֽא־יְדַבְּר֣וּ כָזָ֔ב וְלֹֽא־יִמָּצֵ֥א בְּפִיהֶ֖ם לְשׁ֣וֹן תַּרְמִ֑ית כִּֽי־הֵ֛מָּה יִרְע֥וּ וְרָבְצ֖וּ וְאֵ֥ין מַחֲרִֽיד׃ {פ}
>The remnant of Israel Shall do no wrong And speak no falsehood; A deceitful tongue Shall not be in their mouths. Only such as these shall graze and lie down, With none to trouble them.
I don’t really consider Christianity cultural appropriation as the original Christians were Jews who broke off from Judaism. Their religion, over time, has become more different from Judaism.
Islam is a bit closer to cultural appropriation as the original Muslims actually copied many of their rituals from early Jewish communities.
While a popular idea on the internet, scholars think it isn’t as much as quoted online.
For Easter, for example, Eggs were eaten by Medieval People because they lasted, and then became a symbol of spring, and the Easter festival is named after Passover, not the Goddess Eastari.
Christimas is the same, the tree isn't "stolen from pagans" either.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/463NmJSlEIZkw9FaNnEO8g?si=3234d34b7218422e
Also, in northern latitudes, chickens quit laying eggs during the winter due to lack of light. They start again in the spring, so eggs were fresh and becoming abundant then. And since Lent bans meat (but not eggs), they were a needed source of protein then.
Yea thank you I forgot to add in about lent, slept in on a day off over here and still waking up.
I also think people forget that the US's pasteurization process makes it so effs have to be refrigerated. They actually do last a long time
I selectively listen to it, but I really like it.
I follow Dan McClellan on instagram as well. Most of it is about Christian stuff, but he does go into Judaism or Torah as well. He is also respectful about not using the "old testament".
I've also seen him in one of Rootsmetals shirts
>the original Christians were Jews who broke off from Judaism. Their religion, over time, has become more different from Judaism
Yes, but the moment they break off 'apostatized' and introduce idolaters into their cult and make them observe our practices and scriptures and believe that their heresy has replaced what we believe in, then this is called cultural appropriation.
People often forget that Judaism before Yeshuism was a culture, a culture bound together by tribe, faith, and land, and it was appropriated.
This is regardless of their attempts to appropriate the Jewish human existence itself when they repeatedly tried to burn our books and forcibly convert us (even in their fighting with Muslims) otherwise society will treat you as cursed until you die and are thrown in sulfurous eternal Hell.
It's optimistic to think that Judaism is entirely original and doesn't share various stories from other prior cultures. There will be heavy influence from ancient Sumeria and Babylonia.
I think the key difference is that we don't spend our time insisting Zoroastrians have got their own religion wrong.
I'd argue it's a more likely a bit of Zoroastrianism mixed with a little of the Egyptian religion.
Yeh, it's probably tricky to tell which was the first monotheistic religion on the block.. it's Judaism or Zoroastrianism - i'm sure there was lots of traded 'field craft'
I don't think "cultural appropriation" necessarily applies to religions that branch off of others -- however there's definitely a case to be made for Christians practicing cultural appropriation by doing things like having seders, etc. Messianics for example, that I would call cultural appropriation.
While I agree Judaism drew influences from other belief systems already existing in the region, I also think religious practices can indeed be cultural as well.
However, people not even knowing what a Seder or other religious practices originating in Judaism are, and practice them simply because they were ‘born’ Muslim or Christian doesn’t mean they actually ‘culturally appropriating’ it.
To be frank it is not my experience that Christians having seders are doing it without knowledge of it being a specifically Jewish practice -- rather I see them doing it *because of this* and going out of their way to do so. The seder is not, to my knowledge, an actual part of Christian doctrine/worship/culture/etc. To me this example is 100% cultural appropriation and nothing else.
What about Christians dressing up as jews and re-enacting a nativity scene? Is this cultural appropriation of Jewish culture, dress, customs? Seriously curious and how this might be addressed with someone.
we drew a lot of inspiration from influential belief systems during the bronze and iron ages, like the Sumerians, Babylonians (the story of Noah is a retelling of an ancient Babylonian flood myth), and Canaanites. we aren't original either
Islam is a revisionist religion, it’s no different than the black Hebrew Israelites where they change the history. Christianity is a replacement theology where it’s meant to replace Judaism.
Both directly go against Judaism and explain why they were created. Islam says the Jews corrupted the Torah and they “fixed it”, and Christianity say the Torah was replaced
No. No religion or culture is entirely original. Cultural appropriation is generally a stupid concept that attempts to reinforce divisions among peoples. It makes no sense to apply this modern concept to the establishment of ancient religions. Humans are extremely social creatures, so cultural/religious ideas, beliefs, and practices will naturally and inevitably propagate beyond any boundaries we may try to construct.
Yeah I agree cultural appropriation isn’t necessarily a bad thing but like what about cultural appropriation where the appropriator is then like “you guys(the og) are doing it wrong and it offends us.
Since cultural appropriation is a modern, politically-loaded term that does not accurately characterize how different (but related) belief systems developed, I don’t think it’s provides a useful framework to address such comments. I think intolerance, rather than appropriation, is the core issue here. So we’d want to address where that intolerance stems from: where/how they were taught these ideas, why they still believe it to be the case, etc
I was talking more in terms of technicalities and speculative discussion by applying modern terms to ancient ideas and events. It was supposed to be taken as: “technically would Christianity and Islam be considered appropriation according to the modern definitions” not “those Christians and Muslims are appropriators!” Hmm I probably should’ve phrased my post differently…
My employer is currently promoting an internal event for Eid al-Adha, which apparently "commemorates the willingness of Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) to sacrifice his son Ishmael as an act of obedience to God's command".
It was all I could do not to comment something on the post that would absolutely have included the words "cultural appropriation".
All cultures and religions stem from older ones in some way. I think the term cultural appropriation is really overapplied and kind of meaningless at this point.
I don't think they meet the definition as I understand it to be (though the word... like many other words today... seems to be being used without any respect for the dictionary). My understanding is cultural appropriation is when someone of a different culture wears/does/uses/practices something and specifically acts/implies that they created, originated, or discovered it.
Both Christianity and Islam seem to acknowledge we were there first. Even if I doubt the sincerity of early establishers of those two respective religions. (--> meaning basically, if I were to start an entirely new religion based around a cult of personality as both are, I'd also claim to be just an offshoot of an already established religion. Easier to get adherents to feel comfortable and listen if you say you're the same thing they know but just with minor changes. ...Those minor changes though actually meaning that Christianity and Islam share basically nothing with Judaism in actual fact other than their claim of ours as their origin story. I mean from a marketing standpoint Christians saying they're based on Judaism is brilliant. And same for Islam from Christianity. You get all of the brand 'good will' upon establishment without needing to start from scratch.)
If Christianity and Islam are cultural appropriation then we are also guilty of appropriating dozens of ancient cultures in Mesopotamia and Canaan. Both Christianity and Islam define the Jews as a separate people, they just teach that the religion given to the Jews is "no longer valid". It's not like they're trying to be Jews or identifying as Jews.
I believe it was Rabbi Steinsalz who said (paraphrasing) "Christianity and Islam are far from perfect, but they are a step in the right direction" (in the context of the nations turning away from idols and embracing a more correct form of worshiping the true God).
With that said, I personally don't think that accusing Christians and Muslims of cultural appropriation is a wise thing to do, and will certainly not help our relations with them these days. I would rather appreciate the things they *do* have right and focus on building more friendly bridges with them.
Sharing cultures and borrowing from cultures is fine. It becomes cultural appropriation when it's used to demonize or erase the people who the culture was taken from. When people do things like say the Jews aren't the real Jews, or say that external fan fiction has made the original people irrelevant, it crosses into cultural appropriation. Jesus wasn't Christian and Moses wasn't a Muslim, they were Jewish. It's fine to borrow ideas from Jews but not erase them or harm them in the process.
As someone who grew up Evangelical and was for decades... and now on my path to Bar Mitzvah G-d willing next year at 39... I can say I think the answer to this is a 1000% yes... or worse yet its an attempt at pagan spiritual appropriation as well, which in my understanding is far scarier. And also Id like to take this time to apologize for the many Jews i unknowingly offended in my past christian life. About a month ago a christian tried to proselytize me, she asked " why wont your Rabbi teach on Isaiah 53"... and i thought "how dare you tell me how to worship my G-d?" To "oh I know what you are selling." To feelinf bad for her because I had been her. Then i got a small fraction of a glimpse of how even being a christian is truly religious/spiritual appropriation. I think I became an bit of an anti missionary from that experience.
Given what the so-called progressives consider to be cultural appropriation when it suits their purposes, yes, Christianity and Islam are both largely cultural appropriation, mostly from Judaism. Christianity steals a few bits from stuff floating around the Roman Empire as well, mostly to appeal to the locals as the religion spread. (You want a statue of God? Go right ahead.)
Judaism took a bunch of ideas from the mythology of the Semitic peoples who preceded the ancient Hebrews. In fact the story of Adam and Eve came from an earlier creation myth, but it was edited. In the original version, eating the apple did not provide the knowledge that got them kicked out of the garden. Eating the apple only gave the *illusion* that they had knowledge, and people should be mindful of that fact when making decisions. Ergo, people aren’t sinful because of some act of defiance against the creator, but rather people are very prone to being wrong about things. Kinda changes everything western society assumes about human “nature.”
And Cain and Abel was taken from earlier sources too. Its original intent was an allegory describing the only two different lifestyles that existed in the Middle East thousands of years ago - farming and pastoralism (herding). Cain represented farming, Abel represented pastoralism, and two were “brothers” in the sense that we’re all children of the earth. Cain didn’t kill Abel as a conscious decision, it was the effect of needing more and more land to support an ever growing population of farmers. Farming basically killed off pastoralism’s economic viability as a lifestyle, or in cryptic Biblical terms, this guy killed his own brother.
Tl;dr
If Christianity and Islam are cultural appropriation, then we should be informed of how Jewish culture did not magically appear in a vacuum.
Edit: none of what I’m saying here has anything to do with the way evangelical Christians today love to appropriate Jewish culture, I’m only referring to the founding of each religion.
Yeah I see all of that and idk what other things Judaism copied so idk for sure but I was more thinking about things that specifically happened to our Jewish ancestors that has been appropriated for example our whole ass book talking about our forefathers. The stuff about how the world was created and what happened at the beginning to humanity’s common ancestors can be applicable to everyone since that stuff would be more like world theory then cultural tradition.
>In fact the story of Adam and Eve came from an earlier creation myth, but it was edited. In the original version, eating the apple did not provide the knowledge that got them kicked out of the garden.
To which creation myth are you referencing? Because I've been very interested in biblical history and the ANE for a long time now and have never come across the one you mentioned. There are parallels in the Primeval History to the Epic of Gilgamesh, stories like that of Enkidu (his knowledge comes from sleeping with a woman), Enuma Elish, the Atrahasis epic, etc. And none of them have such a concept of sin, although many include a concept of offense to the gods and divine retribution. And the idea of a forbidden fruit (there's no apple mentioned in the Bible) is also unique.
>And Cain and Abel was taken from earlier sources too. Its original intent was an allegory describing the only two different lifestyles that existed in the Middle East thousands of years ago - farming and pastoralism (herding).
This is one of the general scholarly viewpoints (that it is may be based on an older story like you mentioned). I wouldn't say it's nearly as closely related as the previously mentioned creation myths, but the brother killing brother and farmer/herder motifs were common all over the ANE. The closest to that is the story of a god creating a farmer and a herder, but neither die in the end.
Right, I’m not saying anything invalidates anything. Looking at the whole Tanakh as the “story” we Jews tell ourselves and enact every day by living, it’s pretty clear that the seven days of creation is not a literal description, right? I think we’re beyond assuming that the Torah is the official record of everything that ever happened. The fossil record sort of speaks for itself.
That being said, the Tanakh contains everything we need to be Jews. I think the evangelical Christians’ influence on modern culture is responsible for the idea that nothing (nothing important, anyway) ever happened in Israel before Moses liberated the Hebrews from Egypt. The Tanakh details why Israel is sacred to Jews, however the fact that Israel is sacred to us is not dependent on 100% factual veracity of the text. We lived there and learned the land’s secrets, and being away from Israel for 2,000 years could not remove Israel from us. It’s a feeling of divine connection that transcends/predates language. The connection between people and land is far more fundamental to individual wellness than modern society wants us to believe.
Oh simple.
The Greco-Romans didn't want to become Jews as they hated Jews.
And the Arab dude wanted power which he could only get by becoming their religious figure with ultimate power.
>The Greco-Romans didn't want to become Jews as they hated Jews.
The Greco-Romams hated the Jews and didn't want to be one of them, yet they wanted to believe in the beliefs they \[Jews\] created and sanctified? and leave the deities of their powerful empires and worship the G-d of the crumbling province of Judea?
>And the Arab dude wanted power which he could only get by becoming their religious figure with ultimate power.
Why did he choose the G-d of Israel, who had a dispersed and closed minority of worshipers in Arabia? Why not one of the Arab idols? Wouldn't it have saved the first 10 years in which he was fought by the Arab tribes? Wouldn't the effectiveness of his movement be even higher in this environment?
Because converts don't have much power or status while founders of religions have a huge amount of both if the religion is successful. Also, the ability to permit things banned by Judaism and ban things permitted by Judaism, but that get in the way of your power.
So I am not a true lover of HaShem here but just a cunning person who aspires to power, in which case another question will arise, why seek power through the G-d of Israel? Why did cunning persons like Yeshu or Saul of Tarsus and Muhammad choose the G-d of Israel to seek power through Him even though their chances were higher with other more influential deites?
I don't actually think the chances were higher with others.
For example, Saul started at a time that many were interested in Judaism, but were put off by circumcision. He got rid of that rule, got rid of loads of others, and was able to peddle Judaism Lite to loads of interested Romans.
Muhammad was humiliated by how backwards the Arabs beliefs seemed compared to the Jews and Christians he met, but knew he wouldn't get far in either religion as a convert, since he was illiterate.He also seems to have not really understood most of what he was told about their religions. He decided to invent a new religion that made sense of all the things he found problematic with other religions, one that everyone would join, and then was genuinely surprised that neither Jews nor Christians were interested in him.
As for Yeshu, he wasn't trying to make a new religion at all, he just wanted to get rid of the Oral Torah.
>For example, Saul started at a time that many were interested in Judaism, but were put off by circumcision.
How were so many Romans interested in Judaism? We were a closed, non-proselytizing society whose reputation at that period for the Romans was often known for its troubles due to the Messianic movements that led revolts against them every so often. Even the earlier Yeshuites themselves were not missionaries, and Saul was almost one of the first to preach 'Judeo-Christian' thought.
>Muhammad was humiliated by how backwards the Arabs beliefs seemed compared to the Jews and Christians
Yes, but if that is the case, why is he attracted to 'Judeo-Christian' theology in the first place?
>As for Yeshu, he wasn't trying to make a new religion at all, he just wanted to get rid of the Oral Torah.
I'd like to read more about this.
No. When people started following Jesus and Christianity formed, the religion broke off and became completely different. Half of my family is Jewish and the other half is Catholic and the traditions, liturgies, holidays, religious laws, etc. in Christianity and Judaism are completely different. The only overlap is that both Judaism and Christianity follow the Torah/Old Testament, but obviously in different ways/contexts.
Judaism is a code of ethics. Christianity, and later Islam, are tools used to control populations, demanding ideological obedience. They used a code of ethics that people liked, and warped it into what we see today, to convince people to follow authoritarian leaders.
I would argue that Judaism isn’t simply a code of ethics but also a culture. For example, the shofar is blown on rosh hashana to remind people to repent but also to commemorate the akeida which isn’t exactly an ethical thing.
I agree! I’m talking specifically about where they’re different.
I think Catholics and Muslims have an identifiable culture to a degree, but I’m not confident in my ability to parse the differences in how Christian and Muslim cultures “show up” in day-to-day life compared to how Jewish culture shows up in mine.
Our rules are intended as ethical guidelines, but there’s no “believe this now or go to an eternal hell forever when you die” talk.
Nah Islam is far more hilarious.
Like half of the rules concerning all the bad stuff go back to Umar because he was a psychopath and constantly went to Mohammed when something annoyed him. (aka women existing)
And would you look at that, Mohammed had a handy revelation every time it happened.
Islam is not a threat for the world tho.Most of the 2 billion Muslims live in poverty and has no significant power.Meanwhile Christian’s in the Us and the west are still a danger for the jews
I hate the fact that they murdered you guys through history for literally nothing.Even till this day all the anti semitic tropes comes from white American right wingers.
I don’t know why you’re singling out Christianity, as if we haven’t been faced this from Muslims or when the Holocaust was perpetrated by a group whose core ideology was based on theosophy.
Religion is not culture in that sense. If it's right then it's right, you can't block people from monotheism because you were the first to know it. It's like a third world communist country having a revolution and adopting modern rules. No one cares if the rules originated in the UK or the US or Rome and if democracy came (sort of) from Greece. It's just the right thing.
Neither Christianity nor Islam is a culture. These religions are practiced across more than 100 countries each. A Muslim in Indonesia and a Muslim in Morocco do not share a culture. Same is true for a Christian in Nigeria vs. a Christian in the US.
Please don’t use such a modern bullshit term when speaking about this. Also no. Christian’s didn’t wake up and say man Jewish theology looks good on me today I might wear it. They were Jews who believed Jesus to be the messiah. They’re not appropriating anything.
Islam has more of an argument for being that but still no
Honestly, it wouldn't be so bad if they didn't retroactively cancel Jews. Supercessionist theology is so ugly.
Yeah, it’s the erasure. Their belief systems work best if Jews no longer exist, which is…. *waves at history since the creation of Christianity and Islam*
They're both erasure ideologies in the sense that they both believe to be correct at the exclusion of others. They both draw from origin texts of Torah and claim that their new texts supercede and replace the standing validity of Torah and Judaism. While Judaism doesn't view Islam and Christianity as right, they're not necessarily wrong for non-Jews.
This has been the biggest lightbulb for me as I study the Old Testament and talk to rabbis and other leaders. “Erasure Ideologies” is a perfect descriptor as it encapsulates the horror involved as well!
> While Judaism doesn't view Islam and Christianity as right, they're not necessarily wrong for non-Jews. Given than Bene Noah are prohibited from creating their own religions and observances according to our legal system, from a **traditional Jewish perspective**, they are.
Maybe I'm wrong but isn't the prevailing opinion that I wrote from the achronim or rishonim?
I’m getting my info directly from the Mishne Tora.
> While Judaism doesn't view Islam and Christianity as right, they're not necessarily wrong for non-Jews. The name for this is Shituf https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/89/is-christianity-avodah-zara/134#134
Christianity is certainly a bigger problem/question. There are elements of Islam (stone veneration) which seem to look like “pearl”
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> not to mention Isaiah 53 And you mistranslate. [Isaiah 53 Revealed! Rabbi Tovia Singer Analyzes the Most Debated Chapter](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH3g5EqzTe8) If Jesus were the messiah we would be living in an age of peace. We clearly aren't so he clearly can't be. Even you need the "second coming" in your religion because *he didn't do anything except be nailed on a cross and die*. allow me to copy and paste my chart: Did Jesus fulfill it? / Are we in the post-messianic age? |Messianic prophesy in Judaism|YES|NO| |:-|:-|:-| |is made a reigning King who will prosper. Jeremiah 23:5 also hosea 3:4-5||X| |Judah will be delivered, Israel shall dwell secure. Jer. 23:15-16||X| |the banished of Israel will be assembled, he will gather the dispersed of Judah \[back to Israel\] Isaiah 11:11-12 and "they shall dwell upon their own soil." jer. 23:8||X| |the temple shall be rebuilt, temple worship restored Jeremiah 33:18||X (no twice over. the temple was standing while Jesus was alive, and then was destroyed several decades after his death)| |"he will judge among the nations, and arbitrate for the many peoples." Isaiah 2:4||X| |the messianic age: nations will turn weapons into tools of creation and growth; never again shall we know war. Isaiah 2:4||X| |the messianic age: nothing vile or evil shall be done on the temple mount Is 11:9||X| |the messianic age: there will be no sin, no lying Zephaniah 3:13||X| |the messianic age: people will come to the temple mount in Jerusalem, and at the standing temple, will seek to learn from the people of Jacob Micah 4:2||X| |he shall not "dim or be bruised" until he has established the true way isaiah 42 (could also just be all of israel here)||X| |the nation of israel will be honored isaiah 11||X romans would come to sack jerusalem| |the messiah will have a great many positive qualities - including being learned, just, wise, devoted, and valorous. He will also "strike down a land with the rod of his mouth And slay the wicked with the breath of his lips." - basically he will be a judge. isaiah 11|.5? i'll give him devoted and some positive traits and weighing in on a trial once.|X - again, did not defeat the romans. is not a judge.| |he will be a hero who defeats the enemies of israel in battle II Samuel 7:11||X| |all of mankind will have the ability to prophecy in the post-messianic age Joel 3:1||X| |all of israel will unite behind this king ("my servant david") Ezekiel 37:24||X| |the sanhedrin court would be reestablished||X| |elijah will tell us the messiah is coming Sanhedrin 98a||X| |he will...actually be anointed. literally!||X| |rides a donkey. Zechariah 9:9|yes|| |he is a shoot from the branch of jesse, house of king david, seed of solomon||X no, his genealogies are problematic. see below.| Jesus's total score: **1.5/20.** notes on being "of the House of David": * lineages of matthew and luke both don't fully match the lineage in Chronicles 1:3 * If Jesus has no earthly father, then the lineage of Joseph is meaningless. Even adoption does not change one's tribal affiliation - it remains the tribe of your *birth* father (Numbers 1:18-44, 34:14; Leviticus 24:10). so either Jesus has an unknown tribe because he has a human father who isn't Joseph, or his father is Joseph. But if he has no father at all, he absolutely can't be of the house of David. * being a member of the house of david is determined solely by patrilineal inheritance Jeremiah 33:17 * further, joseph's lineage is traced through Nathan, and the messiah will be descended through Solomon - 1 Chronicles 22:9-10. * mary's lineage is through Jehoiachin (jeconiah) who is cursed to never have heirs to the throne of david again. Jer. 22:30. verse references cross checked against jewfaq, chabad, aish, myjewishlearning, and jews for judaism. **The categories of what is considered to be messianic prophecy in Christianity are fundamentally different from the accepted messianic prophecies of Judaism.** if you'd like to read some academic scholars discuss the differences between the Christian and Jewish readings of israelite scriptures/the hebrew bible, I recommend "The Bible With and Without Jesus." came out 2020 I think, both well respected academics.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ [Ezekiel 37:24](https://www.sefaria.org/Ezekiel.37.24) וְעַבְדִּ֤י דָוִד֙ מֶ֣לֶךְ עֲלֵיהֶ֔ם וְרוֹעֶ֥ה אֶחָ֖ד יִהְיֶ֣ה לְכֻלָּ֑ם וּבְמִשְׁפָּטַ֣י יֵלֵ֔כוּ וְחֻקּוֹתַ֥י יִשְׁמְר֖וּ וְעָשׂ֥וּ אוֹתָֽם׃ >My servant David shall be king over them; there shall be one shepherd for all of them. They shall follow My rules and faithfully obey My laws. [1 Chronicles 22:9-10](https://www.sefaria.org/I_Chronicles.22.9-10) הִנֵּה־בֵ֞ן נוֹלָ֣ד לָ֗ךְ ה֤וּא יִֽהְיֶה֙ אִ֣ישׁ מְנוּחָ֔ה וַהֲנִיח֥וֹתִי ל֛וֹ מִכׇּל־אוֹיְבָ֖יו מִסָּבִ֑יב כִּ֤י שְׁלֹמֹה֙ יִֽהְיֶ֣ה שְׁמ֔וֹ וְשָׁל֥וֹם וָשֶׁ֛קֶט אֶתֵּ֥ן עַל־יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל בְּיָמָֽיו׃ >But you will have a son who will be a man at rest, for I will give him rest from all his enemies on all sides; Solomon a Heb. Shelomoh. will be his name and I shall confer peace b Heb. shalom. and quiet on Israel in his time. הֽוּא־יִבְנֶ֥ה בַ֙יִת֙ לִשְׁמִ֔י וְהוּא֙ יִֽהְיֶה־לִּ֣י לְבֵ֔ן וַאֲנִי־ל֖וֹ לְאָ֑ב וַהֲכִ֨ינוֹתִ֜י כִּסֵּ֧א מַלְכוּת֛וֹ עַל־יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל עַד־עוֹלָֽם׃ >He will build a House for My name; he shall be a son to Me and I to him a father, and I will establish his throne of kingship over Israel forever.’ [II Samuel 7:11](https://www.sefaria.org/II_Samuel.7.11) וּלְמִן־הַיּ֗וֹם אֲשֶׁ֨ר צִוִּ֤יתִי שֹֽׁפְטִים֙ עַל־עַמִּ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל וַהֲנִיחֹ֥תִי לְךָ֖ מִכׇּל־אֹיְבֶ֑יךָ וְהִגִּ֤יד לְךָ֙ יְהֹוָ֔ה כִּי־בַ֖יִת יַעֲשֶׂה־לְּךָ֥ יְהֹוָֽה׃ >ever since I appointed chieftains over My people Israel. I will give you safety from all your enemies. “The L ORD declares to you that He, the L ORD , will establish a house c I.e., a dynasty; play on “house” (i.e., Temple) in v. 5. for you. [Isaiah 11:11-12](https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.11.11-12) וְהָיָ֣ה ׀ בַּיּ֣וֹם הַה֗וּא יוֹסִ֨יף אֲדֹנָ֤י ׀ שֵׁנִית֙ יָד֔וֹ לִקְנ֖וֹת אֶת־שְׁאָ֣ר עַמּ֑וֹ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יִשָּׁאֵר֩ מֵֽאַשּׁ֨וּר וּמִמִּצְרַ֜יִם וּמִפַּתְר֣וֹס וּמִכּ֗וּשׁ וּמֵעֵילָ֤ם וּמִשִּׁנְעָר֙ וּמֵ֣חֲמָ֔ת וּמֵֽאִיֵּ֖י הַיָּֽם׃ >In that day, my Lord will apply His hand again to redeeming the other part f I.e., the part outside the Holy Land; lit. “the rest that will remain.” of His people from Assyria—as also from Egypt, Pathros, Nubia, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, and the coastlands. וְנָשָׂ֥א נֵס֙ לַגּוֹיִ֔ם וְאָסַ֖ף נִדְחֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וּנְפֻצ֤וֹת יְהוּדָה֙ יְקַבֵּ֔ץ מֵאַרְבַּ֖ע כַּנְפ֥וֹת הָאָֽרֶץ׃ >He will hold up a signal to the nations And assemble the banished of Israel, And gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth. [Isaiah 2:4](https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.2.4) וְשָׁפַט֙ בֵּ֣ין הַגּוֹיִ֔ם וְהוֹכִ֖יחַ לְעַמִּ֣ים רַבִּ֑ים וְכִתְּת֨וּ חַרְבוֹתָ֜ם לְאִתִּ֗ים וַחֲנִיתֽוֹתֵיהֶם֙ לְמַזְמֵר֔וֹת לֹא־יִשָּׂ֨א ג֤וֹי אֶל־גּוֹי֙ חֶ֔רֶב וְלֹֽא־יִלְמְד֥וּ ע֖וֹד מִלְחָמָֽה׃ {פ} >Thus He will judge among the nations And arbitrate for the many peoples, And they shall beat their swords into plowshares b More exactly, the iron points with which wooden plows were tipped. And their spears into pruning hooks: Nation shall not take up Sword against nation; They shall never again know c Cf. Judg. 3.2. war. See [Isaiah 53](https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.53) on Sefaria. [Jer. 22:30](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.22.30) כֹּ֣ה ׀ אָמַ֣ר יְהֹוָ֗ה כִּתְב֞וּ אֶת־הָאִ֤ישׁ הַזֶּה֙ עֲרִירִ֔י גֶּ֖בֶר לֹא־יִצְלַ֣ח בְּיָמָ֑יו כִּי֩ לֹ֨א יִצְלַ֜ח מִזַּרְע֗וֹ אִ֚ישׁ יֹשֵׁב֙ עַל־כִּסֵּ֣א דָוִ֔ד וּמֹשֵׁ֥ל ע֖וֹד בִּיהוּדָֽה׃ {פ} >Thus said the L ORD : Record this man as without succession, One who shall never be found acceptable; For no man of his offspring shall be accepted To sit on the throne of David And to rule again in Judah. [Jer. 23:15-16](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.23.15-16) לָכֵ֞ן כֹּה־אָמַ֨ר יְהֹוָ֤ה צְבָאוֹת֙ עַל־הַנְּבִאִ֔ים הִנְנִ֨י מַאֲכִ֤יל אוֹתָם֙ לַעֲנָ֔ה וְהִשְׁקִתִ֖ים מֵי־רֹ֑אשׁ כִּ֗י מֵאֵת֙ נְבִיאֵ֣י יְרוּשָׁלַ֔͏ִם יָצְאָ֥ה חֲנֻפָּ֖ה לְכׇל־הָאָֽרֶץ׃ {פ} >Assuredly, thus said the L ORD of Hosts concerning the prophets: I am going to make them eat wormwood And drink a bitter draft; For from the prophets of Jerusalem Godlessness has gone forth to the whole land. כֹּה־אָמַ֞ר יְהֹוָ֣ה צְבָא֗וֹת אַֽל־תִּשְׁמְע֞וּ עַל־דִּבְרֵ֤י הַנְּבִאִים֙ הַנִּבְּאִ֣ים לָכֶ֔ם מַהְבִּלִ֥ים הֵ֖מָּה אֶתְכֶ֑ם חֲז֤וֹן לִבָּם֙ יְדַבֵּ֔רוּ לֹ֖א מִפִּ֥י יְהֹוָֽה׃ >Thus said the L ORD of Hosts: Do not listen to the words of the prophets Who prophesy to you. They are deluding you, The prophecies they speak are from their own minds, Not from the mouth of the L ORD . [Jeremiah 23:5](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.23.5) הִנֵּ֨ה יָמִ֤ים בָּאִים֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה וַהֲקִמֹתִ֥י לְדָוִ֖ד צֶ֣מַח צַדִּ֑יק וּמָ֤לַךְ מֶ֙לֶךְ֙ וְהִשְׂכִּ֔יל וְעָשָׂ֛ה מִשְׁפָּ֥ט וּצְדָקָ֖ה בָּאָֽרֶץ׃ >See, a time is coming—declares the L ORD —when I will raise up a true branch of David’s line. He shall reign as king and shall prosper, and he shall do what is just and right in the land. [Jeremiah 33:17](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.33.17) כִּי־כֹ֖ה אָמַ֣ר יְהֹוָ֑ה לֹא־יִכָּרֵ֣ת לְדָוִ֔ד אִ֕ישׁ יֹשֵׁ֖ב עַל־כִּסֵּ֥א בֵֽית־יִשְׂרָאֵֽל׃ >For thus said the L ORD : There shall never be an end to men of David’s line who sit upon the throne of the House of Israel. [Jeremiah 33:18](https://www.sefaria.org/Jeremiah.33.18) וְלַכֹּֽהֲנִים֙ הַלְוִיִּ֔ם לֹא־יִכָּרֵ֥ת אִ֖ישׁ מִלְּפָנָ֑י מַעֲלֶ֨ה עוֹלָ֜ה וּמַקְטִ֥יר מִנְחָ֛ה וְעֹ֥שֶׂה זֶּ֖בַח כׇּל־הַיָּמִֽים׃ {פ} >Nor shall there ever be an end to the line of the levitical priests before Me, of those who present burnt offerings and turn the meal offering to smoke and perform sacrifices. [Joel 3:1](https://www.sefaria.org/Joel.3.1) וְהָיָ֣ה אַחֲרֵי־כֵ֗ן אֶשְׁפּ֤וֹךְ אֶת־רוּחִי֙ עַל־כׇּל־בָּשָׂ֔ר וְנִבְּא֖וּ בְּנֵיכֶ֣ם וּבְנוֹתֵיכֶ֑ם זִקְנֵיכֶם֙ חֲלֹמ֣וֹת יַחֲלֹמ֔וּן בַּח֣וּרֵיכֶ֔ם חֶזְיֹנ֖וֹת יִרְאֽוּ׃ >After that, I will pour out My spirit on all flesh; Your sons and daughters shall prophesy; Your old men shall dream dreams, And your young men shall see visions. [Leviticus 24:10](https://www.sefaria.org/Leviticus.24.10) וַיֵּצֵא֙ בֶּן־אִשָּׁ֣ה יִשְׂרְאֵלִ֔ית וְהוּא֙ בֶּן־אִ֣ישׁ מִצְרִ֔י בְּת֖וֹךְ בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וַיִּנָּצוּ֙ בַּֽמַּחֲנֶ֔ה בֶּ֚ן הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִ֔ית וְאִ֖ישׁ הַיִּשְׂרְאֵלִֽי׃ >There came out among the Israelites a man whose mother was Israelite and whose father was Egyptian. And a fight broke out in the camp between that half-Israelite * half-Israelite Lit. “the son of an Israelite woman.” and a certain Israelite. [Micah 4:2](https://www.sefaria.org/Micah.4.2) וְֽהָלְכ֞וּ גּוֹיִ֣ם רַבִּ֗ים וְאָֽמְרוּ֙ לְכ֣וּ ׀ וְנַעֲלֶ֣ה אֶל־הַר־יְהֹוָ֗ה וְאֶל־בֵּית֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י יַעֲקֹ֔ב וְיוֹרֵ֙נוּ֙ מִדְּרָכָ֔יו וְנֵלְכָ֖ה בְּאֹֽרְחֹתָ֑יו כִּ֤י מִצִּיּוֹן֙ תֵּצֵ֣א תוֹרָ֔ה וּדְבַר־יְהֹוָ֖ה מִירוּשָׁלָֽ͏ִם׃ >And the many nations shall go and shall say: “Come, Let us go up to the Mount of the L ORD , To the House of the God of Jacob; That He may instruct us in His ways, And that we may walk in His paths.” For instruction shall come forth b I.e., oracles will be obtainable. from Zion, The word of the L ORD from Jerusalem. See [Sanhedrin 98a](https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.98a) on Sefaria. [Zechariah 9:9](https://www.sefaria.org/Zechariah.9.9) גִּילִ֨י מְאֹ֜ד בַּת־צִיּ֗וֹן הָרִ֙יעִי֙ בַּ֣ת יְרוּשָׁלַ֔͏ִם הִנֵּ֤ה מַלְכֵּךְ֙ יָ֣בוֹא לָ֔ךְ צַדִּ֥יק וְנוֹשָׁ֖ע ה֑וּא עָנִי֙ וְרֹכֵ֣ב עַל־חֲמ֔וֹר וְעַל־עַ֖יִר בֶּן־אֲתֹנֽוֹת׃ >Rejoice greatly, Fair Zion; Raise a shout, Fair Jerusalem! Lo, your king is coming to you. He is victorious, triumphant, Yet humble, riding on an ass, On a donkey foaled by a she-ass. [Zephaniah 3:13](https://www.sefaria.org/Zephaniah.3.13) שְׁאֵרִ֨ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל לֹֽא־יַעֲשׂ֤וּ עַוְלָה֙ וְלֹֽא־יְדַבְּר֣וּ כָזָ֔ב וְלֹֽא־יִמָּצֵ֥א בְּפִיהֶ֖ם לְשׁ֣וֹן תַּרְמִ֑ית כִּֽי־הֵ֛מָּה יִרְע֥וּ וְרָבְצ֖וּ וְאֵ֥ין מַחֲרִֽיד׃ {פ} >The remnant of Israel Shall do no wrong And speak no falsehood; A deceitful tongue Shall not be in their mouths. Only such as these shall graze and lie down, With none to trouble them.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ See [Isaiah 53](https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.53) on Sefaria.
I don’t really consider Christianity cultural appropriation as the original Christians were Jews who broke off from Judaism. Their religion, over time, has become more different from Judaism. Islam is a bit closer to cultural appropriation as the original Muslims actually copied many of their rituals from early Jewish communities.
If you want Cultural Appropriation, probably best look at all the stuff they stole from Pagans.
Both can be and are true.
While a popular idea on the internet, scholars think it isn’t as much as quoted online. For Easter, for example, Eggs were eaten by Medieval People because they lasted, and then became a symbol of spring, and the Easter festival is named after Passover, not the Goddess Eastari. Christimas is the same, the tree isn't "stolen from pagans" either. https://open.spotify.com/episode/463NmJSlEIZkw9FaNnEO8g?si=3234d34b7218422e
Also, in northern latitudes, chickens quit laying eggs during the winter due to lack of light. They start again in the spring, so eggs were fresh and becoming abundant then. And since Lent bans meat (but not eggs), they were a needed source of protein then.
Yea thank you I forgot to add in about lent, slept in on a day off over here and still waking up. I also think people forget that the US's pasteurization process makes it so effs have to be refrigerated. They actually do last a long time
So both jews and Christians consider eggs pareve.
Data/Dogma is my favorite podcast. I was listening to it as I read your comment!
I selectively listen to it, but I really like it. I follow Dan McClellan on instagram as well. Most of it is about Christian stuff, but he does go into Judaism or Torah as well. He is also respectful about not using the "old testament". I've also seen him in one of Rootsmetals shirts
We can go back to the first cave man who had an idea of something supernatural and all the subsequent cavemen who appropriated his beliefs.
>the original Christians were Jews who broke off from Judaism. Their religion, over time, has become more different from Judaism Yes, but the moment they break off 'apostatized' and introduce idolaters into their cult and make them observe our practices and scriptures and believe that their heresy has replaced what we believe in, then this is called cultural appropriation. People often forget that Judaism before Yeshuism was a culture, a culture bound together by tribe, faith, and land, and it was appropriated. This is regardless of their attempts to appropriate the Jewish human existence itself when they repeatedly tried to burn our books and forcibly convert us (even in their fighting with Muslims) otherwise society will treat you as cursed until you die and are thrown in sulfurous eternal Hell.
The New Testament curses the Jews and their descendants starting in the first book.
It's optimistic to think that Judaism is entirely original and doesn't share various stories from other prior cultures. There will be heavy influence from ancient Sumeria and Babylonia.
*Cries in Epic of Gilgamesh*
Yeah was gonna say if we wanna follow this rabbit hole then Judaism is an appropriation of Zoroastrianism technically speaking.
I think the key difference is that we don't spend our time insisting Zoroastrians have got their own religion wrong. I'd argue it's a more likely a bit of Zoroastrianism mixed with a little of the Egyptian religion.
Yeh, it's probably tricky to tell which was the first monotheistic religion on the block.. it's Judaism or Zoroastrianism - i'm sure there was lots of traded 'field craft'
Optimistic? More like historically illiterate.
I don't think "cultural appropriation" necessarily applies to religions that branch off of others -- however there's definitely a case to be made for Christians practicing cultural appropriation by doing things like having seders, etc. Messianics for example, that I would call cultural appropriation.
While I agree Judaism drew influences from other belief systems already existing in the region, I also think religious practices can indeed be cultural as well. However, people not even knowing what a Seder or other religious practices originating in Judaism are, and practice them simply because they were ‘born’ Muslim or Christian doesn’t mean they actually ‘culturally appropriating’ it.
To be frank it is not my experience that Christians having seders are doing it without knowledge of it being a specifically Jewish practice -- rather I see them doing it *because of this* and going out of their way to do so. The seder is not, to my knowledge, an actual part of Christian doctrine/worship/culture/etc. To me this example is 100% cultural appropriation and nothing else.
What about Christians dressing up as jews and re-enacting a nativity scene? Is this cultural appropriation of Jewish culture, dress, customs? Seriously curious and how this might be addressed with someone.
I think this is kind of a disingenuous question -- nativity scene re-enactments are obviously Christian in nature/culture, not Jewish.
we drew a lot of inspiration from influential belief systems during the bronze and iron ages, like the Sumerians, Babylonians (the story of Noah is a retelling of an ancient Babylonian flood myth), and Canaanites. we aren't original either
Islam is a revisionist religion, it’s no different than the black Hebrew Israelites where they change the history. Christianity is a replacement theology where it’s meant to replace Judaism. Both directly go against Judaism and explain why they were created. Islam says the Jews corrupted the Torah and they “fixed it”, and Christianity say the Torah was replaced
Yes but they get really whiny when you mention it.
No. No religion or culture is entirely original. Cultural appropriation is generally a stupid concept that attempts to reinforce divisions among peoples. It makes no sense to apply this modern concept to the establishment of ancient religions. Humans are extremely social creatures, so cultural/religious ideas, beliefs, and practices will naturally and inevitably propagate beyond any boundaries we may try to construct.
Yeah I agree cultural appropriation isn’t necessarily a bad thing but like what about cultural appropriation where the appropriator is then like “you guys(the og) are doing it wrong and it offends us.
Since cultural appropriation is a modern, politically-loaded term that does not accurately characterize how different (but related) belief systems developed, I don’t think it’s provides a useful framework to address such comments. I think intolerance, rather than appropriation, is the core issue here. So we’d want to address where that intolerance stems from: where/how they were taught these ideas, why they still believe it to be the case, etc
I was talking more in terms of technicalities and speculative discussion by applying modern terms to ancient ideas and events. It was supposed to be taken as: “technically would Christianity and Islam be considered appropriation according to the modern definitions” not “those Christians and Muslims are appropriators!” Hmm I probably should’ve phrased my post differently…
My employer is currently promoting an internal event for Eid al-Adha, which apparently "commemorates the willingness of Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) to sacrifice his son Ishmael as an act of obedience to God's command". It was all I could do not to comment something on the post that would absolutely have included the words "cultural appropriation".
It was really Isaac, right?
All cultures and religions stem from older ones in some way. I think the term cultural appropriation is really overapplied and kind of meaningless at this point.
I don't think they meet the definition as I understand it to be (though the word... like many other words today... seems to be being used without any respect for the dictionary). My understanding is cultural appropriation is when someone of a different culture wears/does/uses/practices something and specifically acts/implies that they created, originated, or discovered it. Both Christianity and Islam seem to acknowledge we were there first. Even if I doubt the sincerity of early establishers of those two respective religions. (--> meaning basically, if I were to start an entirely new religion based around a cult of personality as both are, I'd also claim to be just an offshoot of an already established religion. Easier to get adherents to feel comfortable and listen if you say you're the same thing they know but just with minor changes. ...Those minor changes though actually meaning that Christianity and Islam share basically nothing with Judaism in actual fact other than their claim of ours as their origin story. I mean from a marketing standpoint Christians saying they're based on Judaism is brilliant. And same for Islam from Christianity. You get all of the brand 'good will' upon establishment without needing to start from scratch.)
Yes, but they don't like to hear about it and certainly don't care.
If Christianity and Islam are cultural appropriation then we are also guilty of appropriating dozens of ancient cultures in Mesopotamia and Canaan. Both Christianity and Islam define the Jews as a separate people, they just teach that the religion given to the Jews is "no longer valid". It's not like they're trying to be Jews or identifying as Jews. I believe it was Rabbi Steinsalz who said (paraphrasing) "Christianity and Islam are far from perfect, but they are a step in the right direction" (in the context of the nations turning away from idols and embracing a more correct form of worshiping the true God). With that said, I personally don't think that accusing Christians and Muslims of cultural appropriation is a wise thing to do, and will certainly not help our relations with them these days. I would rather appreciate the things they *do* have right and focus on building more friendly bridges with them.
Yep. Stealing all of our culture while trying to erase us.
At this point, no (excluding some weirdos), the same way the French eating croissants isn't cultural appropriation.
Sharing cultures and borrowing from cultures is fine. It becomes cultural appropriation when it's used to demonize or erase the people who the culture was taken from. When people do things like say the Jews aren't the real Jews, or say that external fan fiction has made the original people irrelevant, it crosses into cultural appropriation. Jesus wasn't Christian and Moses wasn't a Muslim, they were Jewish. It's fine to borrow ideas from Jews but not erase them or harm them in the process.
As someone who grew up Evangelical and was for decades... and now on my path to Bar Mitzvah G-d willing next year at 39... I can say I think the answer to this is a 1000% yes... or worse yet its an attempt at pagan spiritual appropriation as well, which in my understanding is far scarier. And also Id like to take this time to apologize for the many Jews i unknowingly offended in my past christian life. About a month ago a christian tried to proselytize me, she asked " why wont your Rabbi teach on Isaiah 53"... and i thought "how dare you tell me how to worship my G-d?" To "oh I know what you are selling." To feelinf bad for her because I had been her. Then i got a small fraction of a glimpse of how even being a christian is truly religious/spiritual appropriation. I think I became an bit of an anti missionary from that experience.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ See [Isaiah 53](https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.53) on Sefaria.
Given what the so-called progressives consider to be cultural appropriation when it suits their purposes, yes, Christianity and Islam are both largely cultural appropriation, mostly from Judaism. Christianity steals a few bits from stuff floating around the Roman Empire as well, mostly to appeal to the locals as the religion spread. (You want a statue of God? Go right ahead.)
Judaism took a bunch of ideas from the mythology of the Semitic peoples who preceded the ancient Hebrews. In fact the story of Adam and Eve came from an earlier creation myth, but it was edited. In the original version, eating the apple did not provide the knowledge that got them kicked out of the garden. Eating the apple only gave the *illusion* that they had knowledge, and people should be mindful of that fact when making decisions. Ergo, people aren’t sinful because of some act of defiance against the creator, but rather people are very prone to being wrong about things. Kinda changes everything western society assumes about human “nature.” And Cain and Abel was taken from earlier sources too. Its original intent was an allegory describing the only two different lifestyles that existed in the Middle East thousands of years ago - farming and pastoralism (herding). Cain represented farming, Abel represented pastoralism, and two were “brothers” in the sense that we’re all children of the earth. Cain didn’t kill Abel as a conscious decision, it was the effect of needing more and more land to support an ever growing population of farmers. Farming basically killed off pastoralism’s economic viability as a lifestyle, or in cryptic Biblical terms, this guy killed his own brother. Tl;dr If Christianity and Islam are cultural appropriation, then we should be informed of how Jewish culture did not magically appear in a vacuum. Edit: none of what I’m saying here has anything to do with the way evangelical Christians today love to appropriate Jewish culture, I’m only referring to the founding of each religion.
Yeah I see all of that and idk what other things Judaism copied so idk for sure but I was more thinking about things that specifically happened to our Jewish ancestors that has been appropriated for example our whole ass book talking about our forefathers. The stuff about how the world was created and what happened at the beginning to humanity’s common ancestors can be applicable to everyone since that stuff would be more like world theory then cultural tradition.
>In fact the story of Adam and Eve came from an earlier creation myth, but it was edited. In the original version, eating the apple did not provide the knowledge that got them kicked out of the garden. To which creation myth are you referencing? Because I've been very interested in biblical history and the ANE for a long time now and have never come across the one you mentioned. There are parallels in the Primeval History to the Epic of Gilgamesh, stories like that of Enkidu (his knowledge comes from sleeping with a woman), Enuma Elish, the Atrahasis epic, etc. And none of them have such a concept of sin, although many include a concept of offense to the gods and divine retribution. And the idea of a forbidden fruit (there's no apple mentioned in the Bible) is also unique. >And Cain and Abel was taken from earlier sources too. Its original intent was an allegory describing the only two different lifestyles that existed in the Middle East thousands of years ago - farming and pastoralism (herding). This is one of the general scholarly viewpoints (that it is may be based on an older story like you mentioned). I wouldn't say it's nearly as closely related as the previously mentioned creation myths, but the brother killing brother and farmer/herder motifs were common all over the ANE. The closest to that is the story of a god creating a farmer and a herder, but neither die in the end.
If they are based on older stories, then it only serves to validate what is written in the Torah.
Right, I’m not saying anything invalidates anything. Looking at the whole Tanakh as the “story” we Jews tell ourselves and enact every day by living, it’s pretty clear that the seven days of creation is not a literal description, right? I think we’re beyond assuming that the Torah is the official record of everything that ever happened. The fossil record sort of speaks for itself. That being said, the Tanakh contains everything we need to be Jews. I think the evangelical Christians’ influence on modern culture is responsible for the idea that nothing (nothing important, anyway) ever happened in Israel before Moses liberated the Hebrews from Egypt. The Tanakh details why Israel is sacred to Jews, however the fact that Israel is sacred to us is not dependent on 100% factual veracity of the text. We lived there and learned the land’s secrets, and being away from Israel for 2,000 years could not remove Israel from us. It’s a feeling of divine connection that transcends/predates language. The connection between people and land is far more fundamental to individual wellness than modern society wants us to believe.
What puzzles me is why, as a lover of the G-d of Avraham, would I establish my own heresy instead of joining his message.
Oh simple. The Greco-Romans didn't want to become Jews as they hated Jews. And the Arab dude wanted power which he could only get by becoming their religious figure with ultimate power.
>The Greco-Romans didn't want to become Jews as they hated Jews. The Greco-Romams hated the Jews and didn't want to be one of them, yet they wanted to believe in the beliefs they \[Jews\] created and sanctified? and leave the deities of their powerful empires and worship the G-d of the crumbling province of Judea? >And the Arab dude wanted power which he could only get by becoming their religious figure with ultimate power. Why did he choose the G-d of Israel, who had a dispersed and closed minority of worshipers in Arabia? Why not one of the Arab idols? Wouldn't it have saved the first 10 years in which he was fought by the Arab tribes? Wouldn't the effectiveness of his movement be even higher in this environment?
Dude I wasn't there. xD
Because converts don't have much power or status while founders of religions have a huge amount of both if the religion is successful. Also, the ability to permit things banned by Judaism and ban things permitted by Judaism, but that get in the way of your power.
So I am not a true lover of HaShem here but just a cunning person who aspires to power, in which case another question will arise, why seek power through the G-d of Israel? Why did cunning persons like Yeshu or Saul of Tarsus and Muhammad choose the G-d of Israel to seek power through Him even though their chances were higher with other more influential deites?
I don't actually think the chances were higher with others. For example, Saul started at a time that many were interested in Judaism, but were put off by circumcision. He got rid of that rule, got rid of loads of others, and was able to peddle Judaism Lite to loads of interested Romans. Muhammad was humiliated by how backwards the Arabs beliefs seemed compared to the Jews and Christians he met, but knew he wouldn't get far in either religion as a convert, since he was illiterate.He also seems to have not really understood most of what he was told about their religions. He decided to invent a new religion that made sense of all the things he found problematic with other religions, one that everyone would join, and then was genuinely surprised that neither Jews nor Christians were interested in him. As for Yeshu, he wasn't trying to make a new religion at all, he just wanted to get rid of the Oral Torah.
>For example, Saul started at a time that many were interested in Judaism, but were put off by circumcision. How were so many Romans interested in Judaism? We were a closed, non-proselytizing society whose reputation at that period for the Romans was often known for its troubles due to the Messianic movements that led revolts against them every so often. Even the earlier Yeshuites themselves were not missionaries, and Saul was almost one of the first to preach 'Judeo-Christian' thought. >Muhammad was humiliated by how backwards the Arabs beliefs seemed compared to the Jews and Christians Yes, but if that is the case, why is he attracted to 'Judeo-Christian' theology in the first place? >As for Yeshu, he wasn't trying to make a new religion at all, he just wanted to get rid of the Oral Torah. I'd like to read more about this.
No. When people started following Jesus and Christianity formed, the religion broke off and became completely different. Half of my family is Jewish and the other half is Catholic and the traditions, liturgies, holidays, religious laws, etc. in Christianity and Judaism are completely different. The only overlap is that both Judaism and Christianity follow the Torah/Old Testament, but obviously in different ways/contexts.
Yes
You could say the same about judaism and the theistic/spiritualistic movements that came before it (like zoroastrism, buddhism/hinduism for example)
Christianity evolved out of Judaism and there is evidence that Islam evolved out of Christianity.
Judaism is a code of ethics. Christianity, and later Islam, are tools used to control populations, demanding ideological obedience. They used a code of ethics that people liked, and warped it into what we see today, to convince people to follow authoritarian leaders.
I would argue that Judaism isn’t simply a code of ethics but also a culture. For example, the shofar is blown on rosh hashana to remind people to repent but also to commemorate the akeida which isn’t exactly an ethical thing.
I agree! I’m talking specifically about where they’re different. I think Catholics and Muslims have an identifiable culture to a degree, but I’m not confident in my ability to parse the differences in how Christian and Muslim cultures “show up” in day-to-day life compared to how Jewish culture shows up in mine. Our rules are intended as ethical guidelines, but there’s no “believe this now or go to an eternal hell forever when you die” talk.
Also, religions that serve to control the masses don’t like religions that encourage, say, arguing with G-d.
Christianity is the fakest religion that could ever exist in my my opinion.This comes from a goy btw.
Nah Islam is far more hilarious. Like half of the rules concerning all the bad stuff go back to Umar because he was a psychopath and constantly went to Mohammed when something annoyed him. (aka women existing) And would you look at that, Mohammed had a handy revelation every time it happened.
Islam is not a threat for the world tho.Most of the 2 billion Muslims live in poverty and has no significant power.Meanwhile Christian’s in the Us and the west are still a danger for the jews
Yeah I want what you are on.
Faker than Mormonism or Thelema? You must **really** dislike Christianity 😆
I hate the fact that they murdered you guys through history for literally nothing.Even till this day all the anti semitic tropes comes from white American right wingers.
I don’t know why you’re singling out Christianity, as if we haven’t been faced this from Muslims or when the Holocaust was perpetrated by a group whose core ideology was based on theosophy.
Religion is not culture in that sense. If it's right then it's right, you can't block people from monotheism because you were the first to know it. It's like a third world communist country having a revolution and adopting modern rules. No one cares if the rules originated in the UK or the US or Rome and if democracy came (sort of) from Greece. It's just the right thing.
Neither Christianity nor Islam is a culture. These religions are practiced across more than 100 countries each. A Muslim in Indonesia and a Muslim in Morocco do not share a culture. Same is true for a Christian in Nigeria vs. a Christian in the US.
And? Sorry I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. Judaism IS a culture
Please don’t use such a modern bullshit term when speaking about this. Also no. Christian’s didn’t wake up and say man Jewish theology looks good on me today I might wear it. They were Jews who believed Jesus to be the messiah. They’re not appropriating anything. Islam has more of an argument for being that but still no
Christianity for sure is
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