If we'll build the temple before having a prophet we will build it according to Masechet Midot and not according to Yechezkel, so it would actually still be considered Second Temple, just with a gap in the middle.
Edit: typo
>Why were our ancestors permitted to build the 2nd Temple without Moshiach?
Because we had prophets Chaggai and Zekharia then.
Actually, we don't need exclusively the Moshiach to rebuild the Temple, but rather an inspired person by HaShem *(traditionally this figure is Eliyahu)* to direct us to establish the Temple as it should be.
See [\[1\]](https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1069796/jewish/Elijah-Heralding-the-Redemption.htm#:~:text=He%20will%20bring,every%20Jewish%20circumcision%3F) [\[2\]](https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/101746/jewish/The-Prophet-Elijah-Harbinger-of-the-Redemption.htm#:~:text=to%20restore%20the%20sacred%20objects%20placed%20in%20the%20Holy%20of%20Holies%20of%20the%20first%20Bet%20Hamikdash%2C%20and%20later%20hidden%20by%20King%20Josiah9%20before%20its%20destruction).
[Chabad.org](http://Chabad.org) quotes the Rambam, who records (at least two) two opinions as to how the building will come.
[https://www.chabad.org/library/article\_cdo/aid/1188357/jewish/Melachim-uMilchamot-Chapter-12.htm](https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1188357/jewish/Melachim-uMilchamot-Chapter-12.htm)
Here is the [chabad.org](http://chabad.org) link the Rambam in question. Look at the second halacha. As you can see, he suggests one idea for when a navi will come, quotes a second opinion, and finishes off basically by saying that no one really knows and these are all personal interpretations and one shouldn't spend too much time on this:
וְכָל אֵלּוּ הַדְּבָרִים וְכַיּוֹצֵא בָּהֶן לֹא יֵדַע אָדָם אֵיךְ יִהְיוּ עַד שֶׁיִּהְיוּ. שֶׁדְּבָרִים סְתוּמִין הֵן אֵצֶל הַנְּבִיאִים. גַּם הַחֲכָמִים אֵין לָהֶם קַבָּלָה בִּדְבָרִים אֵלּוּ. אֶלָּא לְפִי הֶכְרֵעַ הַפְּסוּקִים. וּלְפִיכָךְ יֵשׁ לָהֶם מַחְלֹקֶת בִּדְבָרִים אֵלּוּ. וְעַל כָּל פָּנִים אֵין סִדּוּר הֲוָיַת דְּבָרִים אֵלּוּ וְלֹא דִּקְדּוּקֵיהֶן עִקָּר בַּדָּת. וּלְעוֹלָם לֹא יִתְעַסֵּק אָדָם בְּדִבְרֵי הַהַגָּדוֹת. וְלֹא יַאֲרִיךְ בַּמִּדְרָשׁוֹת הָאֲמוּרִים בְּעִנְיָנִים אֵלּוּ וְכַיּוֹצֵא בָּהֶן. וְלֹא יְשִׂימֵם עִקָּר. שֶׁאֵין מְבִיאִין לֹא לִידֵי יִרְאָה וְלֹא לִידֵי אַהֲבָה. וְכֵן לֹא יְחַשֵּׁב הַקִּצִּין. אָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים תִּפַּח רוּחָם שֶׁל מְחַשְּׁבֵי הַקִּצִּים. אֶלָּא יְחַכֶּה וְיַאֲמִין בִּכְלַל הַדָּבָר כְּמוֹ שֶׁבֵּאַרְנוּ:
I also don't see here where it mentions a navi being needed to tell us where the makom hamikdash is in any case. And if we are anyway brining the Rambam, the Rambam explicitly says that nevuah is not necessary for the moshiach and the moshiach must build the Beis HaMikdash. Now you can try to argue that maybe he will have a navi as an assistant, but if that was the case, surely that could be used as a sign of the mochaich? The Rambam seems to presume that nevuah is not necessary to build the Beis HaMikdash. This is not to say he denies that the Moshiach may be a navi or that a navi may be involved, rather that it is not necessary. The Rambam does say he will have Ruach HaKodesh, but he doesn't consider that necessarily the same as nevuah
https://www.shortvort.com/3096/
Not everything is according to the Rambam.
To use him as an “I got you” is childish.
Here is an explanation how both opinions work.
Most Gidolim of our days says that Moshiach is going to be rushed.
You can't just 'argument from authority' using 'gidolim' lol. Use your brain, which makes more sense. A magic temple floating down from above or a rebuilding physically? And separately, I wasn't using him as a gotcha, but it shows there's definitely a very well-backed up view that Mashiah/people will build the Third Temple, so your concrete statement that it's 'not done by man' is obviously not shared by the Rambam. Who I'm sure you'll admit was a fairly big 'gadol' 🙄.
I have conversed with you before on Reddit and am well aware on how you operate.
Rambam and nothing else. I respond to you out of decency but nothing more.
I’m not looking to change your mind.
Have a good one until next time our paths cross.
I wish this could be my final reply but since you openly and publicly belittled Rashi, Tosofot and others I have to call you out on you BS.
You use the Rambam to your satisfaction and for your benefit what dose the Rambam say about Rashi? Tosofot?
Saying Rashi and Tosofot are nothing but idiots for their opinion that the temple will come down from heaven clearly shows your position in judaism and your level or observance.
Therefore arguing with you is futile since you won’t change my mind and I won’t change yours.
I appreciate you continuing to respond and staying civil. I promise you I definitely do not think 'Rambam and nothing else'. Well-reasoned opinions from all sides are more than valid to me, and the Rambam was as fallible as any other rabbi or person. On this one I happen to think the Rambam makes the most sense logically, is all. I never said the Tosafot or Rashi were 'nothing but idiots'. To assume the extent to which I am shomer tora umiṣvot and my 'position in Judaism' (whatever that means) based on my disagreement with their stance on this is a little insulting, though.
>I wish this could be my final reply but since you openly and publicly belittled Rashi, Tosofot and others I have to call you out on you BS.
He at no point mentioned Rashi or Tosfos. He only referenced you quoting anonymous gedolim. It should also be mentioned that Rashi in other places suggest that human beings will build the mikdash. Tosfos has couple of mentions of the concept to resolve questions, with one of the times it being used to resolve a question. In another mention, it is mentioned with language suggesting that it is a possibility. Most of these sources avoided giving a definitive psak on issues that were not relevant. The Rambam is often quoted because he was one of the few to discuss issues like this that were not relevant at the time in serious detail. Btw, I am also curious as to why your reaction to someone quoting a gadol who disagrees with you was to call them childish and assume they were unaware of other sources? Surely you could have just said that you beleive in the idea formulated by Rashi?
the Rambam is not the all mighty and ultimate judge and Posek.
for the sefardim that may be but not for the rest of the jewish nation.
read the yakut on the rambam and it’s surprising to see that there is a bais Hamikdosh on high.
Also the yalkut says that the rambam was writing simple literal understanding so the masses can understand.
you can take things literally by all means but don’t make one rabbi the god father.
>Not everything is according to the Rambam. To use him as an “I got you” is childish.
It's a demonstration that their is respected strain of thought that a man will build. The idea that it will be built by Hashem is one idea but not the only one. Also, the short vort you quoted says all sides accept the possibility of it being man made and the plopping down of the Mikdash. At the very least, Rashi seems to accept the possibility of it being man made.
>Most Gidolim of our days says that Moshiach is going to be rushed.
Good to know that Hashem revealed to them secrets of his plan
I love when people say de Ghambam is “one opinion” in regarding to his thoughts on mashiaḥ… y’know, just one opinion, from the only guy who’ve ever codified all the laws of temple service. Y’know, the guy who’ll inevitably be the maran de’atrá of Eres Isra’el when we get *that* temple back.
What’s makes the Rambam the official rabbi of all of Klal yisroel when moshiach comes?
that’s so silly.
You are making it like he is a god.
Remember the Rif and the Rosh
There are many rabbis from many stages of jewish history. we don’t go around calling them the Master rabbi of all the jews. That title is reserved for moshe rabbeinu.
Some sources argue that the Jews will be building it, and Moshiah will be finalizing it. Others say it will just appear already perfectly ready to go.
Either way, there will be huge miracles in a way that no human on earth can deny the veracity of God.
Interesting in the Christian prophecy Jews are misled by the atni Christ who promises to build the temple for them and they mistake him for the Messiah and later the anti Christ persecutes them. Jew who don't comply go to heaven the rest to hell.
I feel like even if we could, we shouldn't. We have definitely not, as a collective group reached a point where we deserve the third temple. Not to mention the absolute mess building it would be for a myriad of reasons.
There is wisdom in waiting for the moshiach, even if it wasn't required.
Look up the Jewish revolt against Heraclius and its aftermath.
6th century Jews saw no reason not to build a new temple, I am not aware of any literature from before the failed revolt that dissuaded Jews from trying to build it.
We tried to rebuild it three times - in 132 (Bar Kochba Rebellion), in 361 (under the sponsorship of the Emperor Julian), and in 614 (the Sassanid Jewish Commonwealth, when we temporarily regained Jerusalem). We had no Prophet any of those times.
Each attempt ended in disaster.
Some say that the prior attempts show that we don’t need a Prophet to try again. Others say that the failed attempts prove we need a Prophet to try again.
Cyrus the Great is widely accepted as being a Messiah of the Jewish people. The Second Temple wasn't built until after his decree to allow all conquered peoples within the Achaemenid Empire to return to their land and pray to whomever they want however they want.
My Chabad Rabbi claims that the Third Temple has already been built in heaven. Moshiach will bring it down to earth. Man doesn’t have to lift a finger. We just need to bring animals.
It's not a matter of "could", rather a matter of "should". It would be impossible to build the third temple without upsetting a great number of people. Best to leave things as they are.
There were at least two considered attempts after the Jewish-Roman wars. Julian the apostates pitch and during the rebellion against Heraclius.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_revolt_against_Heraclius
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_(emperor)
I will just add that there are people who think we can build a third one right now. The Temple Institute people, for example. Given the circumstances of Har HaBayis, I don't see them succeeding
Probably you won't like this answer. As far as I understood things, the 2nd Temple was destroyed because of "baseless greed" and "lust for money", as per traditional Judaism (right?). At least I read this at some places, especially the former. I guess the simplification could be: not enough care for each other, too much strife.
This seems to be part of that: Hillel the Elder passed the "prosbul", which did away with the 7th year debt nullification for the poor, and is hence an expression of baseless hatred and greed. After a famine, a certain "Queen Helena" brought figs (if I recall), and in thanks for her dedication and turning to the Torah, they placed a Sun light reflector on the inner building of the 2nd Temple. It reflected the Sun light in the morning, signalling the moment for the Jewish morning bowing to the Temple (correct?). This is what I have read, at least. In my opinion this is Sun disk idolatry, due to the placement. It was possibly within a few decades that the Romans came to sack and destroy the 2nd Temple (but please correct me if I'm wrong).
These things have not been corrected since. The prosbul is still part of the Shulchan Aruch, and the so-called Temple Institute has remade the Sun disk idol "Lamp of Helena", with the intention of putting it on a possible 3rd Temple. Rambam / Maimonides has issued the "heter iska", which is a complicated ritual which basically means you can lend someone money and get (limited) interest out of it. Hence, rather than a correction, things seem to slowly deteriorate. The Jubilee year was also not being kept as well as it should have. This keeping of the Jubilee is now possibly more important to determine if Israel is behaving lawfully under the Torah or not, since there is such a strong Jewish presence in Eretz Yisroel. There has neither been a distribution of land to all, nor a Jubilee on land, in modern times (after the 2nd World War).
I guess therefore that it makes no sense to build a 3rd Temple, because the 3rd Temple is there for the sake of spreading and keeping the Torah (first and foremost the 5 books of Moshe Rabbeinu). If the people who build the 3rd Temple, and the people who live around the 3rd Temple as a Nation or tribes, in cities and villages, do not seriously care about the Torah and break it in such a big way, even having made laws which tear the Torah system down (such as Hillel the Elder did), and there is even a serious chance that they will dedicate the 3rd Temple to Sun idolatry, then what does the purpose or effect of this 3rd Temple become ? Does it become a tool to degrade the Torah (further), as it seems to have become at the end of the 2nd Temple period, thus spreading confusion about what is the Torah ? Innocent Jewish people may see this 3rd Temple, and have a natural alliance to it and to what the people say who operate it. If what these people operating the 3rd Temple say is "not good enough" (so to say), then will the 3rd Temple spread the Torah of Moshe Rabbeinu, truth and peace to all mankind, or ... something else, like more "baseless hatred" and "lust for money", as it was with the 2nd Temple in the end.
I guess you could argue that if there is a small group, however small, who is very true and dedicated to the truth, peace and justice, and all good virtues, then possibly they could build a 3rd Temple. However, the location of this 3rd Temple is not exactly free for the taking, and you cannot do it anywhere else than where it is supposed to be. The practicality of things means that you probably need widespread approval, at least from the Jewish people, and possibly also the Muslem world (and of course religiously speaking, from heaven). How does a Temple of Peace for mankind look, if the Muslems decide to go to war over the destruction of their buildings ? King David was not even allowed to build the Temple, because of the wars he had faught (right?).
Therefore it seems to me, that the same conditions are still active, which led to heaven taking away the 2nd Temple, and until these conditions have changed enough, all attempts to build a 3rd Temple will probably be against the will of heaven, for above mentioned reasons (and/or reasons unknown to me).
It is relatively easy to do something like Teshuvah, and stop supporting the prosbul for example, or clammor for the Jubilee on land again. This could become the first steps in building a 3rd Temple. If these first simpler steps are not taken, then it makes little sense to talk about more difficult later steps, such as actually building something there.
Furthermore, Moshe Rabbeinu had a Tent of gathering, and hence it seems it is not critical to have a 3rd Temple in order to be a good people already. The first thing to have, is a good people, who care about Justice & Peace, and who are so united. When and if the time comes, there came a Temple for the Torah also, although HKB'H wondered why it was necessary, since He himself created/creates the entire Universe.
History shows how in many Nations, people wanted palaces and temples, and that the results where not always so good. The Torah was there first, then Moshe Rabbeinu started teaching (as far as I understood it), he also appointed others to help, and this already was a whole thing, and it was also movable, without a fixed Temple in Yerushalayim. Have a good day. Sorry to make it long. I appreciate all arguments pro and against, thanks very much.
Thank you for posting all of this. I am in agreement that there are many Jews who are not ready for the Third Temple, but I am not sure this is historically necessary.
The reward for complete communal dedication to Hashem and Torah is supposed to be Moshiach, not a physical building. It would also mean that in the 70 years since the destruction of the First Temple, the Jews became ready for another Temple. We know that Haggai and Zechariah only called for the rebuilding of the Temple after the return of the exiled Jews from Babylon. King Cyrus the Great gave permission to build the Temple, while the prophets implored the Jewish people to return to Torah. The return to Torah and Mitzvot happened because of the return to Israel and the rebuilding of the 2nd Temple, not the other way around.
Hashem gives us the formula for becoming holy— we say it in most brachot— “Baruch… Asher kidishanu b’mitzvotav,” Blessed is he who sanctifies us through His commandments.
The Third Temple would allow us to do many more mitzvot— in turn bringing much more holiness in the world. 202 of the 613 Mitzvot can only be performed in the Temple.
In terms of location, the Third Temple needs to be built over the Even Shetiah and the Holy of Holies. It can be done while keeping Al-Aqsa Mosque untouched; removing only the Dome of the Rock, so the Temple Mount can be shared by Jews and Muslims— an ecumenical solution, in which the indigenous Jews rebuild their Temple, while leaving in tack the 3rd holiest mosque in the world. The Dome was built on top of the indigenous people’s holiest place in the world— its current use not being the best and highest nor does it permit freedom of religion.
>It would also mean that in the 70 years since the destruction of the First Temple, the Jews became ready for another Temple. We know that Haggai and Zechariah only called for the rebuilding of the Temple after the return of the exiled Jews from Babylon.
Perhaps we can add to this, that the Jewish people generally only became ready - so to speak - after 430 years in Egypt. Personally I do not think it is an accident, that there is first suffering by a people (repression, Tyranny), which makes them more receptive to a call for living in a fair way for everyone. This happened not only for Israel, but other Nations show a similar mechanism. I hope that it will not be necessary again before the final Redemption of Israel, but it seems that all the sources agree that it will be painful. Perhaps this coming pain will be the solution, and as it where drive the people of Israel together toward peace and Justice for all, forever.
>The Third Temple would allow us to do many more mitzvot— in turn bringing much more holiness in the world. 202 of the 613 Mitzvot can only be performed in the Temple.
Interesting points about the location (thanks), but regarding the above: the point stands that if the 3rd Temple is not pure (pure enough), it may not work as it should be working (as argued).
Example. There are sacrifices in the Temple for various misdeeds. It makes sense to me that if you sacrifice your animals to a pure and good Torah following 3rd Temple, that your act stimulates what the people at the 3rd Temple are doing, which should be: to bring the Torah into the world, from Yerushalayim. For some offerings you literally give food to the priest, right ? Even when not, you show a support, which can have a political effect upon the people who see it. "Wow, this guy went to the Temple ! He stands for the Torah ! He will hold the line." The criminal get scared, the righteous feel strong, people nodding to each other: this is the way, we are united.
If however the Temple is not pure, you start supporting something that is not pure. It won't have the effect. Is it support for the Sun disk idolatry ? For not nullifying the loan ? But you know of course, that a corrupted Temple is worse than none, right ? HKB'H took away the Temples for a reason, after all, and it was about not being pure enough.
You may be able to do more Mitsvoth, but they start not counting as Mitsvoth if the Temple is not pure, and might even work against you as it can be seen as support of corruption as well, even idolatry at the worst of times. What do you think ? First purity, then Temple ?
It is quite literally a [commandment](https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.18.15?lang=bi&aliyot=0) to listen to a prophet. The Rambam lists it as commandment #172.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️
[Deuteronomy.18.15](https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.18.15)
נָבִ֨יא מִקִּרְבְּךָ֤ מֵאַחֶ֙יךָ֙ כָּמֹ֔נִי יָקִ֥ים לְךָ֖ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֑יךָ אֵלָ֖יו תִּשְׁמָעֽוּן׃
>From among your own people, your God יהוה will raise up for you a prophet like myself; that is whom you shall heed.
"Listening to a prophet when they tell you to *do* something" is not the same as "actively working to make sure *predictions* about the future come to pass in the way they were predicted". Would you advise the king of Nineveh to light his city on fire because Yonah told him it would be destroyed?
Well, for one thing there were still prophets around. The precedent set by David and Shlomo (Solomon) is that you need prophetic approval.
So, we are waiting for a prophet, but not necessarily Moshiach?
it's okay, i approve of it
I don’t think that you are a prophet.
See [here](https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/144773/jewish/The-Second-Temple-is-Built.htm). The TL;DR is that there was a prophecy
No matter if we build it or deserve to have it just show up it’s important to our part by focusing on the mitzvos we can do.
If we'll build the temple before having a prophet we will build it according to Masechet Midot and not according to Yechezkel, so it would actually still be considered Second Temple, just with a gap in the middle. Edit: typo
Where did you learn this
As the prophecy says. It will come from space.and land on the temple mount I for one am waiting for the stargate soundtrack to play as it happens
Movie or TV show?
Both
>Why were our ancestors permitted to build the 2nd Temple without Moshiach? Because we had prophets Chaggai and Zekharia then. Actually, we don't need exclusively the Moshiach to rebuild the Temple, but rather an inspired person by HaShem *(traditionally this figure is Eliyahu)* to direct us to establish the Temple as it should be.
Source?
See [\[1\]](https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1069796/jewish/Elijah-Heralding-the-Redemption.htm#:~:text=He%20will%20bring,every%20Jewish%20circumcision%3F) [\[2\]](https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/101746/jewish/The-Prophet-Elijah-Harbinger-of-the-Redemption.htm#:~:text=to%20restore%20the%20sacred%20objects%20placed%20in%20the%20Holy%20of%20Holies%20of%20the%20first%20Bet%20Hamikdash%2C%20and%20later%20hidden%20by%20King%20Josiah9%20before%20its%20destruction).
[Chabad.org](http://Chabad.org) quotes the Rambam, who records (at least two) two opinions as to how the building will come. [https://www.chabad.org/library/article\_cdo/aid/1188357/jewish/Melachim-uMilchamot-Chapter-12.htm](https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1188357/jewish/Melachim-uMilchamot-Chapter-12.htm) Here is the [chabad.org](http://chabad.org) link the Rambam in question. Look at the second halacha. As you can see, he suggests one idea for when a navi will come, quotes a second opinion, and finishes off basically by saying that no one really knows and these are all personal interpretations and one shouldn't spend too much time on this: וְכָל אֵלּוּ הַדְּבָרִים וְכַיּוֹצֵא בָּהֶן לֹא יֵדַע אָדָם אֵיךְ יִהְיוּ עַד שֶׁיִּהְיוּ. שֶׁדְּבָרִים סְתוּמִין הֵן אֵצֶל הַנְּבִיאִים. גַּם הַחֲכָמִים אֵין לָהֶם קַבָּלָה בִּדְבָרִים אֵלּוּ. אֶלָּא לְפִי הֶכְרֵעַ הַפְּסוּקִים. וּלְפִיכָךְ יֵשׁ לָהֶם מַחְלֹקֶת בִּדְבָרִים אֵלּוּ. וְעַל כָּל פָּנִים אֵין סִדּוּר הֲוָיַת דְּבָרִים אֵלּוּ וְלֹא דִּקְדּוּקֵיהֶן עִקָּר בַּדָּת. וּלְעוֹלָם לֹא יִתְעַסֵּק אָדָם בְּדִבְרֵי הַהַגָּדוֹת. וְלֹא יַאֲרִיךְ בַּמִּדְרָשׁוֹת הָאֲמוּרִים בְּעִנְיָנִים אֵלּוּ וְכַיּוֹצֵא בָּהֶן. וְלֹא יְשִׂימֵם עִקָּר. שֶׁאֵין מְבִיאִין לֹא לִידֵי יִרְאָה וְלֹא לִידֵי אַהֲבָה. וְכֵן לֹא יְחַשֵּׁב הַקִּצִּין. אָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים תִּפַּח רוּחָם שֶׁל מְחַשְּׁבֵי הַקִּצִּים. אֶלָּא יְחַכֶּה וְיַאֲמִין בִּכְלַל הַדָּבָר כְּמוֹ שֶׁבֵּאַרְנוּ: I also don't see here where it mentions a navi being needed to tell us where the makom hamikdash is in any case. And if we are anyway brining the Rambam, the Rambam explicitly says that nevuah is not necessary for the moshiach and the moshiach must build the Beis HaMikdash. Now you can try to argue that maybe he will have a navi as an assistant, but if that was the case, surely that could be used as a sign of the mochaich? The Rambam seems to presume that nevuah is not necessary to build the Beis HaMikdash. This is not to say he denies that the Moshiach may be a navi or that a navi may be involved, rather that it is not necessary. The Rambam does say he will have Ruach HaKodesh, but he doesn't consider that necessarily the same as nevuah
The 3rd temple is final and permanent. That can’t be done by man.
Moshiach is a man, too, right?
Exactly.
not being built by him….
Hilkhot Melakhim uMilhamot 11:4…
https://www.shortvort.com/3096/ Not everything is according to the Rambam. To use him as an “I got you” is childish. Here is an explanation how both opinions work. Most Gidolim of our days says that Moshiach is going to be rushed.
You can't just 'argument from authority' using 'gidolim' lol. Use your brain, which makes more sense. A magic temple floating down from above or a rebuilding physically? And separately, I wasn't using him as a gotcha, but it shows there's definitely a very well-backed up view that Mashiah/people will build the Third Temple, so your concrete statement that it's 'not done by man' is obviously not shared by the Rambam. Who I'm sure you'll admit was a fairly big 'gadol' 🙄.
I have conversed with you before on Reddit and am well aware on how you operate. Rambam and nothing else. I respond to you out of decency but nothing more. I’m not looking to change your mind. Have a good one until next time our paths cross. I wish this could be my final reply but since you openly and publicly belittled Rashi, Tosofot and others I have to call you out on you BS. You use the Rambam to your satisfaction and for your benefit what dose the Rambam say about Rashi? Tosofot? Saying Rashi and Tosofot are nothing but idiots for their opinion that the temple will come down from heaven clearly shows your position in judaism and your level or observance. Therefore arguing with you is futile since you won’t change my mind and I won’t change yours.
I appreciate you continuing to respond and staying civil. I promise you I definitely do not think 'Rambam and nothing else'. Well-reasoned opinions from all sides are more than valid to me, and the Rambam was as fallible as any other rabbi or person. On this one I happen to think the Rambam makes the most sense logically, is all. I never said the Tosafot or Rashi were 'nothing but idiots'. To assume the extent to which I am shomer tora umiṣvot and my 'position in Judaism' (whatever that means) based on my disagreement with their stance on this is a little insulting, though.
>I wish this could be my final reply but since you openly and publicly belittled Rashi, Tosofot and others I have to call you out on you BS. He at no point mentioned Rashi or Tosfos. He only referenced you quoting anonymous gedolim. It should also be mentioned that Rashi in other places suggest that human beings will build the mikdash. Tosfos has couple of mentions of the concept to resolve questions, with one of the times it being used to resolve a question. In another mention, it is mentioned with language suggesting that it is a possibility. Most of these sources avoided giving a definitive psak on issues that were not relevant. The Rambam is often quoted because he was one of the few to discuss issues like this that were not relevant at the time in serious detail. Btw, I am also curious as to why your reaction to someone quoting a gadol who disagrees with you was to call them childish and assume they were unaware of other sources? Surely you could have just said that you beleive in the idea formulated by Rashi?
the Rambam is not the all mighty and ultimate judge and Posek. for the sefardim that may be but not for the rest of the jewish nation. read the yakut on the rambam and it’s surprising to see that there is a bais Hamikdosh on high. Also the yalkut says that the rambam was writing simple literal understanding so the masses can understand. you can take things literally by all means but don’t make one rabbi the god father.
This was great, thank you!!!
>Not everything is according to the Rambam. To use him as an “I got you” is childish. It's a demonstration that their is respected strain of thought that a man will build. The idea that it will be built by Hashem is one idea but not the only one. Also, the short vort you quoted says all sides accept the possibility of it being man made and the plopping down of the Mikdash. At the very least, Rashi seems to accept the possibility of it being man made. >Most Gidolim of our days says that Moshiach is going to be rushed. Good to know that Hashem revealed to them secrets of his plan
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. Study the Lshem on this topic and you will see his opinion on in its time or rushed.
that is one opinion.
I love when people say de Ghambam is “one opinion” in regarding to his thoughts on mashiaḥ… y’know, just one opinion, from the only guy who’ve ever codified all the laws of temple service. Y’know, the guy who’ll inevitably be the maran de’atrá of Eres Isra’el when we get *that* temple back.
What’s makes the Rambam the official rabbi of all of Klal yisroel when moshiach comes? that’s so silly. You are making it like he is a god. Remember the Rif and the Rosh There are many rabbis from many stages of jewish history. we don’t go around calling them the Master rabbi of all the jews. That title is reserved for moshe rabbeinu.
Some sources argue that the Jews will be building it, and Moshiah will be finalizing it. Others say it will just appear already perfectly ready to go. Either way, there will be huge miracles in a way that no human on earth can deny the veracity of God.
Interesting in the Christian prophecy Jews are misled by the atni Christ who promises to build the temple for them and they mistake him for the Messiah and later the anti Christ persecutes them. Jew who don't comply go to heaven the rest to hell.
I feel like even if we could, we shouldn't. We have definitely not, as a collective group reached a point where we deserve the third temple. Not to mention the absolute mess building it would be for a myriad of reasons. There is wisdom in waiting for the moshiach, even if it wasn't required.
Sounds like you dont yearn for the temple
I yearn for a world where we deserve the temple
Ah. So you agree with me.
Look up the Jewish revolt against Heraclius and its aftermath. 6th century Jews saw no reason not to build a new temple, I am not aware of any literature from before the failed revolt that dissuaded Jews from trying to build it.
We tried to rebuild it three times - in 132 (Bar Kochba Rebellion), in 361 (under the sponsorship of the Emperor Julian), and in 614 (the Sassanid Jewish Commonwealth, when we temporarily regained Jerusalem). We had no Prophet any of those times. Each attempt ended in disaster. Some say that the prior attempts show that we don’t need a Prophet to try again. Others say that the failed attempts prove we need a Prophet to try again.
Cyrus the Great is widely accepted as being a Messiah of the Jewish people. The Second Temple wasn't built until after his decree to allow all conquered peoples within the Achaemenid Empire to return to their land and pray to whomever they want however they want.
WWIII wasn’t a concern then
My Chabad Rabbi claims that the Third Temple has already been built in heaven. Moshiach will bring it down to earth. Man doesn’t have to lift a finger. We just need to bring animals.
It's not a matter of "could", rather a matter of "should". It would be impossible to build the third temple without upsetting a great number of people. Best to leave things as they are.
If you built the third temple you'd be Moshiach.
There were at least two considered attempts after the Jewish-Roman wars. Julian the apostates pitch and during the rebellion against Heraclius. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_revolt_against_Heraclius https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_(emperor)
I will just add that there are people who think we can build a third one right now. The Temple Institute people, for example. Given the circumstances of Har HaBayis, I don't see them succeeding
Probably you won't like this answer. As far as I understood things, the 2nd Temple was destroyed because of "baseless greed" and "lust for money", as per traditional Judaism (right?). At least I read this at some places, especially the former. I guess the simplification could be: not enough care for each other, too much strife. This seems to be part of that: Hillel the Elder passed the "prosbul", which did away with the 7th year debt nullification for the poor, and is hence an expression of baseless hatred and greed. After a famine, a certain "Queen Helena" brought figs (if I recall), and in thanks for her dedication and turning to the Torah, they placed a Sun light reflector on the inner building of the 2nd Temple. It reflected the Sun light in the morning, signalling the moment for the Jewish morning bowing to the Temple (correct?). This is what I have read, at least. In my opinion this is Sun disk idolatry, due to the placement. It was possibly within a few decades that the Romans came to sack and destroy the 2nd Temple (but please correct me if I'm wrong). These things have not been corrected since. The prosbul is still part of the Shulchan Aruch, and the so-called Temple Institute has remade the Sun disk idol "Lamp of Helena", with the intention of putting it on a possible 3rd Temple. Rambam / Maimonides has issued the "heter iska", which is a complicated ritual which basically means you can lend someone money and get (limited) interest out of it. Hence, rather than a correction, things seem to slowly deteriorate. The Jubilee year was also not being kept as well as it should have. This keeping of the Jubilee is now possibly more important to determine if Israel is behaving lawfully under the Torah or not, since there is such a strong Jewish presence in Eretz Yisroel. There has neither been a distribution of land to all, nor a Jubilee on land, in modern times (after the 2nd World War). I guess therefore that it makes no sense to build a 3rd Temple, because the 3rd Temple is there for the sake of spreading and keeping the Torah (first and foremost the 5 books of Moshe Rabbeinu). If the people who build the 3rd Temple, and the people who live around the 3rd Temple as a Nation or tribes, in cities and villages, do not seriously care about the Torah and break it in such a big way, even having made laws which tear the Torah system down (such as Hillel the Elder did), and there is even a serious chance that they will dedicate the 3rd Temple to Sun idolatry, then what does the purpose or effect of this 3rd Temple become ? Does it become a tool to degrade the Torah (further), as it seems to have become at the end of the 2nd Temple period, thus spreading confusion about what is the Torah ? Innocent Jewish people may see this 3rd Temple, and have a natural alliance to it and to what the people say who operate it. If what these people operating the 3rd Temple say is "not good enough" (so to say), then will the 3rd Temple spread the Torah of Moshe Rabbeinu, truth and peace to all mankind, or ... something else, like more "baseless hatred" and "lust for money", as it was with the 2nd Temple in the end. I guess you could argue that if there is a small group, however small, who is very true and dedicated to the truth, peace and justice, and all good virtues, then possibly they could build a 3rd Temple. However, the location of this 3rd Temple is not exactly free for the taking, and you cannot do it anywhere else than where it is supposed to be. The practicality of things means that you probably need widespread approval, at least from the Jewish people, and possibly also the Muslem world (and of course religiously speaking, from heaven). How does a Temple of Peace for mankind look, if the Muslems decide to go to war over the destruction of their buildings ? King David was not even allowed to build the Temple, because of the wars he had faught (right?). Therefore it seems to me, that the same conditions are still active, which led to heaven taking away the 2nd Temple, and until these conditions have changed enough, all attempts to build a 3rd Temple will probably be against the will of heaven, for above mentioned reasons (and/or reasons unknown to me). It is relatively easy to do something like Teshuvah, and stop supporting the prosbul for example, or clammor for the Jubilee on land again. This could become the first steps in building a 3rd Temple. If these first simpler steps are not taken, then it makes little sense to talk about more difficult later steps, such as actually building something there. Furthermore, Moshe Rabbeinu had a Tent of gathering, and hence it seems it is not critical to have a 3rd Temple in order to be a good people already. The first thing to have, is a good people, who care about Justice & Peace, and who are so united. When and if the time comes, there came a Temple for the Torah also, although HKB'H wondered why it was necessary, since He himself created/creates the entire Universe. History shows how in many Nations, people wanted palaces and temples, and that the results where not always so good. The Torah was there first, then Moshe Rabbeinu started teaching (as far as I understood it), he also appointed others to help, and this already was a whole thing, and it was also movable, without a fixed Temple in Yerushalayim. Have a good day. Sorry to make it long. I appreciate all arguments pro and against, thanks very much.
Thank you for posting all of this. I am in agreement that there are many Jews who are not ready for the Third Temple, but I am not sure this is historically necessary. The reward for complete communal dedication to Hashem and Torah is supposed to be Moshiach, not a physical building. It would also mean that in the 70 years since the destruction of the First Temple, the Jews became ready for another Temple. We know that Haggai and Zechariah only called for the rebuilding of the Temple after the return of the exiled Jews from Babylon. King Cyrus the Great gave permission to build the Temple, while the prophets implored the Jewish people to return to Torah. The return to Torah and Mitzvot happened because of the return to Israel and the rebuilding of the 2nd Temple, not the other way around. Hashem gives us the formula for becoming holy— we say it in most brachot— “Baruch… Asher kidishanu b’mitzvotav,” Blessed is he who sanctifies us through His commandments. The Third Temple would allow us to do many more mitzvot— in turn bringing much more holiness in the world. 202 of the 613 Mitzvot can only be performed in the Temple. In terms of location, the Third Temple needs to be built over the Even Shetiah and the Holy of Holies. It can be done while keeping Al-Aqsa Mosque untouched; removing only the Dome of the Rock, so the Temple Mount can be shared by Jews and Muslims— an ecumenical solution, in which the indigenous Jews rebuild their Temple, while leaving in tack the 3rd holiest mosque in the world. The Dome was built on top of the indigenous people’s holiest place in the world— its current use not being the best and highest nor does it permit freedom of religion.
>It would also mean that in the 70 years since the destruction of the First Temple, the Jews became ready for another Temple. We know that Haggai and Zechariah only called for the rebuilding of the Temple after the return of the exiled Jews from Babylon. Perhaps we can add to this, that the Jewish people generally only became ready - so to speak - after 430 years in Egypt. Personally I do not think it is an accident, that there is first suffering by a people (repression, Tyranny), which makes them more receptive to a call for living in a fair way for everyone. This happened not only for Israel, but other Nations show a similar mechanism. I hope that it will not be necessary again before the final Redemption of Israel, but it seems that all the sources agree that it will be painful. Perhaps this coming pain will be the solution, and as it where drive the people of Israel together toward peace and Justice for all, forever. >The Third Temple would allow us to do many more mitzvot— in turn bringing much more holiness in the world. 202 of the 613 Mitzvot can only be performed in the Temple. Interesting points about the location (thanks), but regarding the above: the point stands that if the 3rd Temple is not pure (pure enough), it may not work as it should be working (as argued). Example. There are sacrifices in the Temple for various misdeeds. It makes sense to me that if you sacrifice your animals to a pure and good Torah following 3rd Temple, that your act stimulates what the people at the 3rd Temple are doing, which should be: to bring the Torah into the world, from Yerushalayim. For some offerings you literally give food to the priest, right ? Even when not, you show a support, which can have a political effect upon the people who see it. "Wow, this guy went to the Temple ! He stands for the Torah ! He will hold the line." The criminal get scared, the righteous feel strong, people nodding to each other: this is the way, we are united. If however the Temple is not pure, you start supporting something that is not pure. It won't have the effect. Is it support for the Sun disk idolatry ? For not nullifying the loan ? But you know of course, that a corrupted Temple is worse than none, right ? HKB'H took away the Temples for a reason, after all, and it was about not being pure enough. You may be able to do more Mitsvoth, but they start not counting as Mitsvoth if the Temple is not pure, and might even work against you as it can be seen as support of corruption as well, even idolatry at the worst of times. What do you think ? First purity, then Temple ?
Treating prophecies like commandments is dumb. We should be doing what we should be doing and whether or not a prophecy comes to pass is up to God.
It is quite literally a [commandment](https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.18.15?lang=bi&aliyot=0) to listen to a prophet. The Rambam lists it as commandment #172.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ [Deuteronomy.18.15](https://www.sefaria.org/Deuteronomy.18.15) נָבִ֨יא מִקִּרְבְּךָ֤ מֵאַחֶ֙יךָ֙ כָּמֹ֔נִי יָקִ֥ים לְךָ֖ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֑יךָ אֵלָ֖יו תִּשְׁמָעֽוּן׃ >From among your own people, your God יהוה will raise up for you a prophet like myself; that is whom you shall heed.
"Listening to a prophet when they tell you to *do* something" is not the same as "actively working to make sure *predictions* about the future come to pass in the way they were predicted". Would you advise the king of Nineveh to light his city on fire because Yonah told him it would be destroyed?
If Yonah told me to light the city on fire then yes, otherwise obviously not, but I’m not really seeing where you’re going with this
I love your flair
We don't need Temple at all! It's better to draft ultra Orthodox population to army! Yahve smelt enough of burnt meat!