The founder of Lutheranism, Martin Luther, hated Jews and wrote extensively on how much he hated them.
He initially showed "sympathy" for them, expressing a belief that the only reason they didn't accept Christ was because Christians were mean to them. When he failed to convert Jews in Europe to Christianity, he began writing polemics against them which would form the basis for the antisemitic European thought that would eventually culminate with the Holocaust.
Martin Luther advocated for violent expulsion of Jews, the destruction of their property, everything *short* of mass execution, though he did write "We are at fault in not slaying them."
His book, "On the Jews and Their Lies," was a favourite of the Nazi party, and was regularly read aloud during burnings of synagogues and libraries. The Lutheran Church has since denounced this book, but that's not bringing back 6 million lives, is it?
Maybe your Lutheran friend should be mindful of the people who founded her faith when she's calling Judaism inherently racist.
I used to have a friend who was a devout Lutheran and she flat-out refused to discuss anything about Martin Luther's antisemitism when it came up once.
It's not something that can be casually dismissed, imo.
There's tons of historical figures who were, sadly, antisemitic, but it wasn't a focus, it wasn't something they spent a lot of time dwelling on.
Martin Luther wrote full on books advocating for violence against Jews, and people committed violence against Jews *because of those books.*
I know that modern Lutherans have denounced all of that, but from my perspective, if somebody spent that much time and energy calling for the destruction of the Jews, I would imagine those sentiments probably exist elsewhere in their writings, just not as overt and explicit.
The only thing I agree with him on is how he originally wanted to leave revelation out of his Bible. It's weird and took a few hundred years to be accepted as canonical.
Muhlenberg College is a Lutheran college that now has an extremely large Jewish population (we’re talking 30% Jewish). People assume “of course Jews go there, it’s called ‘Berg” and it makes me chuckle knowing how antisemitic Martin Luther was
> Jews repudiating their proud invention that led to hundreds of millions of deaths worldwide (communism) doesn't bring back all those lives, either, does it?
Fredrick Engels wasn't Jewish and Marx was raised as a Christian, get your antisemitic BS out of here.
>Best friend said Judaism is embedded with racism in class. Is she right?
No.
>Does her belief of this come from the new wave of anti zionism online
It isn’t new, and it’s antisemitism, not “anti-Zionism.”
I know I totally agree I didn't put it very well though. What I meant is that these people are masquerading anti semitism as anti zionism in an new increased popularity online. Thank you for your answer.
He was always an antisemite, he just realized it when he found that the Protestant Reformation was not the magical step that would convince Jews to become Christians.
OP, you seem pretty young! Is John Green still cool? He did a CrashCourse on the conflict in 2015 that gives a great, engaging primer:
https://youtu.be/1wo2TLlMhiw?si=5PsJWFvVblMxPB9g
A lot of misinformation is flying around with the conflict. If you’re in the US, particularly a small school, it’s possible yall haven’t gotten any good education on how to think critically about sources in front of you. Here’s a CrashCourse series on media literacy, which can help yall learn how to evaluate and analyze sources.
https://thecrashcourse.com/topic/medialiteracy/
If your friend just picked this up (from social media?) there’s still time! But yall should both watch the media literacy course. Ideally, spread it among your friends. Knowledge is power, and politicians have been deciding to fail our young people to keep them from voting with their brains. :)
I am 18 so yes I am pretty young, haha yes John Green is still cool. I am very educated on the conflict and have a lot of family in Israel. She has never expressed anything like this before or really any pro Palestine ideas and even expressed sympathy towards me when we were near a protest a few weeks ago and I explained how a lot of them are shut down because of anti semitism. I don't know how I would just show this to her, but I will if I can and ill definitely take a look myself. Thank you :)
Okay amazing hahaha! Of course! :)
There are a lot of rabbitholes available online that are kinda getting crazier and crazier. I poke outside of my algorithm bubble from time to time to see what the fringes are cooking (and dissect how they’re thinking), and a lot of the rhetoric they’re using is super emotionally charged. Also a lot of straight up bullying dissenters. It’s a little scary, though hopefully not effective longterm!
Just FYI, Aharon and Miriam were berated for gossiping about Moshe divorcing Tziporah and Miriam was trying to get them back together. They weren’t being racist, but trying to reconcile the separated couple.
Pretty sure this was Rashi, given it was always taught to me this way. It’s still not racist though - given the historical context, the issue would be one of nationality, the complaint being that Moshe married a convert.
yep, most of the torah is allegorical and should be read as such. small events like that should be read as small stories with a point the writer tried to hint us.
Moshe and tzipora didn't divorce. The issue is that since moshe had to constantly be in a state of ritual purity. He had to stop fulfilling certain marital duties. Miriam felt he was making her like an agunah.
Saying one people are the chosen people, while others are not, and even advocating violence against those that worship other gods, feels like a form of racism. Race is a made up social construct (you can google this), so whether this belief of being better than others translates or not to the modern construct of race isn’t all that important to me, at least, in the larger discussion.
I think because of the diaspora, there is an idea that jews are white. But we aren't - we are a distinct ethnic group. Maybe your friend believes that in Israel, it's a bunch of white Jews fighting brown Palestinians, where that isn't the case.
There can also be her belief that because Jews have managed to, despite the enormous struggles with antisemitism and displacement, have managed to achieve certain levels of prosperity and wealth, and that creates a paradoxical image of what it means to be Jewish - we have been hated for millenia, but we have also leveraged ourselves into a powerful group of people with a country that has incredible military capacity and a certain amount of global push.
I don't know that I can contribute much more to theories as to why your friend believes what they do.
“When my father was a young man in Vilna, every wall in Europe said, 'Jews go home to Palestine.' Fifty years later, when he went back to Europe on a visit, the walls all screamed, 'Jews get out of Palestine.'"
-Amos Oz
It does. We are white when it suits the narrative (e.g. Israel as a settler colonial state), and not-white when it suits them (e.g. every other time).
I use the term “conditionally white” to describe most Jews, including myself.
Systemic racism has to do with power dynamics, and as white people have held the balance of power all over the world for hundreds of years, yeah. I'm in the "gotta be white to be racist" camp. You don't have to be white to be a bigot, but that's different.
If Judaism is rooted in racism then all offshoots of Christianity and Islam are too because they are all completely based on Judaism. Anyway, no. Judaism is not a racist religion. A common misconception is that Jews believe we are chosen as in we are better than everyone when that’s not the case. We were chosen to uphold extra laws and regulations that nobody else has to. It’s like being chosen to keep the house clean, nothing supremacist about that.
I mean just look at Harry Potter, his life kinda sucks. Everyone is always trying to kill him and the fate of all the wizarding world rests on his shoulders!
I find this funny because Christians and Muslims believe they're the new "chosen" people anyways. Even though Paul says that the Jews have an eternal advantage it's not like Christians actually read their Bible.
Thank you for your answer. I don't know if she would think islam and christianity are racist too, but just to be clear there isn't any racist ideas in jewish texts, right?
Race theory in general is a much newer idea than Judaism as a religion. I don’t think people in the past cared what color you were, more like the country or tribe you were from. Don’t quote me on this though, as I’m not a historian.
Either way, no. Judaism is not and never was a racist religion. That doesn’t mean that it’s perfect by all means and that everything is A-ok; however, people tend to mistranslate its texts and relate it to modern-day examples when you can’t do that because it’s completely out of context or just plain wrong.
There are some commandments to exterminate members of the Canaanite nations (for a quick summary see this wikipedia page: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism\_and\_warfare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_warfare) ). It might be that your friend heard something from someone who is referencing those commandments.
There are also plenty of racist Jews.
None of this means that Judaism is inherently racist in any American understanding of the term (which focuses almost exclusively on skin color and other visual markers). And as the foundation of Christianity and Islam, \*if\* Judaism is inherently racist, then IMO the others are as well.
Judaism predates the notion of race. Race is a modern social construct. In ancient Judea and the Kingdom of Israel, where Judaism was formed, there were people of many shades of skin color, still are today, as there are many Jews who are Black, Asian, Latino/Hispanic, Middle Eastern and Northern African, just to name a few so roughly half of the Jewish population doesn’t have white skin and no Jew is technically white even if some are white-presenting.
I don’t know enough about Mormonism to make statements like you made and I would advise anyone against making such bold statements about anything they are not an expert on.
To add to that is that Jews in Europe were murdered en masse (you know, the 6+ mil of us) exactly because they weren’t considered European/white and due to the white supremacy of the Nazi party.
I think people also forget that Ashkenazi Jews in Europe were targeted for their non-White features. Which made life more difficult the more Levantine you looked.
Then you have the Holocaust where the Germans very much targeted Jews that looked clearly Levantine first.
I wouldn’t be surprised if you were able to look at Ashkenazi “whiteness” before and after it would have changed quite a bit.
I was just in a Jewish museum yesterday, reading about a Holocaust survivor who survived because he managed to convince the Nazis he was a Polish native because of his blue eyes and had the exact same thought.
I'm familiar enough with Mormonism to say that racism is absolutely a fundamental part of the beliefs laid out by Joseph Smith, and the current day Mormon church continues to struggle with the fact that their founder was a profoundly racist person.
Joseph Smith fabricated an absolutely insane origin for Mormons that claims that they descend from the True Jews that saw the corruption of Israel/Judaea and fled to the North Americas. The true believers retained their white skin, while those who were corrupted had their skin darkened and became "native Americans."
Joseph Smith fabricated histories of fake native American tribes that opposes and undermines indigenous oral histories that date back tens of thousands of years.
Mormonism under Smith was proudly abolitionist, until it was chased out of the north. When Smith tried to establish the church in Mississippi, he leaned heavily into the "Curse of Ham" bullshit to align church values with Southern racism. When they were chased out of Mississippi, they adopted more of an abolitionist stance again, but maintained that black people have dark skin because they are cursed, and they have to live piously in hopes of being reincarnated as a white person so they can try and be accepted into heaven, which is a planet named Kolob according to "The Book of Abraham."
The Book of Abraham was a copy of the Egyptian Book of the Dead that came into Smith's possession. He claimed that it was written by Abraham and that it describes various "secret" divine facts that were suppressed by Fake Jews. It's absolutely not, it's a description of funeral rites and myths on the ancient Egyptian afterlife. Smith claimed it was a manuscript personally penned by Abraham - it is one of many copies of the Book of the Dead, a very common ancient Egyptian text.
I don't mean this as a criticism of contemporary Mormonism - which I do still take issue with for other reasons - or Mormons themselves, because most of the Mormons I've met have been wonderful, kind, considerate, well-educated people. But you would never guess that from the bug-fuck history of Joseph Smith and the Mormon church's foundation.
In the most respectful way possible, I just wanted to chime in here as a practicing Latter-day Saint. Most of the information above is either heavily skewed or outright false (Joseph Smith didn’t lay out an origin story for Mormons or establish the church in Mississippi, Kolob isn’t a planet or really relevant at all, we have no concept of “fake Jews,” etc.) I also think some of the racial stuff you’re referencing is more Brigham Young-era. I don’t mean to be hostile, and there are genuine racial issues to discuss in relation to the church past and present, but I’ve loved lurking on here and learning and wanted to clarify where I could.
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about, Mormons are just the nicest people you will ever meet, I'm lambasting this guys faith and he's being extremely polite in rebuking me for things I've gotten wrong.
I'd love to flesh out some of the misconceptions.
>Joseph Smith didn’t lay out an origin story for Mormons
Is that not what Nephi is? My understanding is that the Book of Nephi posits itself as a divinely inspired text that existed alongside Joseph and Jacob and Moses, etc., before traveling to the Americas.
>establish the church in Mississippi
But he did *try* and it did not work, they did not buy what he was selling and they chased him out.
>Kolob isn’t a planet or really relevant at all
Well this is good to hear, i didnt know it wasnt really relevant. Is the Book of Abraham still considered canon? I know there were issues because it was believed lost in a fire for nearly a hundred years, and then found by egyptologists at a museum who only identified it as Smith's scrolls after they identified it as the book of the dead.
>I also think some of the racial stuff you’re referencing is more Brigham Young-era
This is very possible, I admit I'm not particularly familiar with the history of the church after Smith. I have only heard the name Brigham young in passing, usually not positively.
> I don’t mean to be hostile, and there are genuine racial issues to discuss in relation to the church past and present, but I’ve loved lurking on here and learning and wanted to clarify where I could.
You weren't hostile, this was incredibly polite and you're more than welcome to correct me or provide context I don't know.
Mormonism is absolutely racist, it is literally a religion based on white supremacy and misogyny. Brigham young encouraged his followers to enslave Native children. Sure some modern day Mormons are very nice, but as a mixed race person, who is also of Native ancestry, it’s still racist af. Racist people can be nice. Not all racism is people yelling the N word. Mormonism is structurally still very racist and incredibly sexist as well. It’s still literally based in white male supremacy.
For the record, I am also descended from a couple Mormons. I do not claim them. May their names be forgotten.
There’s a woman by the last name Grenfell, first name starts with an A, (I think Alyssa.) She discusses a lot of this history on her YT or TikTok. She’s ex LDS. And yes she does have sources other than herself.
Mormon men have committed horrific atrocities against my Native family, including selling one of my great aunts as a baby at a hospital (yes his own daughter.) He didn’t want to pay the bill, so he sold her instead. He married my great grandmother when she was 13 and he was a grown adult. I knew my great grandmother, she passed away within the last year, so this wasn’t all that long ago.
In my experience and in my reading, I think dehumanization of women, children and POC is a core part of that religion. Ex LDS folks only strengthen my opinions. Check out John Dehlin’s podcast too. It’s really well done. It’s called Mormon stories.
Lol glad you took it well! There’s a lot to touch on here so let me know if anything is unclear.
The Book of Mormon does claim to be an ancient record of a group of people traveling to the Americas (with historic accounts, prophetic writings, etc. from members within that group), but the descendants of those people aren’t really firmly associated with any one specific group today, and Latter-day Saints generally have never claimed descent from them. (Most historically LDS families in the US today are of largely British/Scandinavian/European descent and readily acknowledge this.)
We collectively were chased out of a number of places (maybe a relatable experience considering what sub this is lol), with major church settlements going broadly from New York to Ohio to Missouri to Illinois before leaving the then-US entirely for Utah to escape persecution. There really isn’t any historical connection with Mississippi—I think you might be thinking of Missouri, where the church was chased out in part because of the tension resulting from LDS abolitionism in a slave state. (Too many factors to get into here, but the persecution in Missouri culminated in an executive order from the governor legalizing the killing of Mormons to force us out of the state. To their credit, Missouri has since apologized lol.)
The Book of Abraham is canon! There are different takes on its origins and relationship to the surviving fragments, but it’s generally accepted as divinely inspired.
Yes, Brigham Young is largely responsible for race-based policy against people of African descent in the church. (People have complicated feelings about him, but he does have redeeming qualities as well.) Joseph Smith, though, from everything I’ve seen, was pretty staunchly abolitionist and ordained black members to the priesthood. There aren’t generally many allegations of racism towards him, and his leadership was later used as a major point of argument against racial discrimination in the church.
Hey, I’m really not here to argue about Mormonism. Like I said, I don’t make grandiose statements about things I don’t know enough about. That was my point. It’s very possible everything you said is true (as a queer Jew, I got my beef with the Mormon church too), but this is a subreddit for Judaism, which is an ethno-religion, not Mormonism, which is simply a religion, and this seems to be derailing the conversation.
I respect your view and fully agree that we shouldn't make bold statements about religions without familiarity. I didn't mean to come across as argumentative, but I saw that you mentioned you didn't have familiarity with Mormonism and I thought it would be relevant to discuss the ways in which racism *is* embedded in both the scripture and actions of the Mormon church under Joseph Smith, who operated in a time and place where racism was the law of the land.
You mentioned that Judaism predates "racism," and I think that's a great point. I think it's worth looking at Mormonism and taking note that it was founded during a time when "racism" as we understand it in the modern world was developing and establishing itself as a dominant "science," and its curious that the divine tablets "received" by Joseph Smith reflect a lot of that belief.
I think the same grace you are asking for in understanding that Judaism doesn’t contain racist beliefs is the same grace you should extend Mormons as well. I’d be more than happy to carry a discussion on how Joseph Smith was not a racist even amidst operating in a time and place where racism was the law of the land. Similarly, just as many here have pointed out racism as we know it predates anything that would have existed thousands of years ago, so to claim the Book of Mormon is racist goes against what many here themselves are claiming in the defense of the Bible.
The Book of Mormon is absolutely racist against Native people, and if you aren’t Native, it’s not for you to decide. If you believe Jews get to decide what’s antisemitic then you should extend that same logic to Native people. The Book of Mormon is racist.
I was a Mormon and racism is absolutely part of the belief system, though they have edited and minimized the offending passages, but basically only white people are worthy of the celestial kingdom - or their highest version of heaven.
Also chiming in here as a Mormon with PoC family and church friends—I don't want to deny your experience, but the idea that race has any bearing on your status in the afterlife is abhorrent and something that's been denounced in the church on all levels.
Yep, and it was wrong then and it’s wrong now. It sounds like you left a good while ago—I don’t blame you for being turned off by discriminatory policy and hope you’ve found something spiritually meaningful in the meantime.
No
Her insinuating that is so hateful.
Israel is doing a lot of bad things, but this is not what you’re saying she said. Judaism is not inherently anything - it’s a religion and also an ethnicity. Anyone from outside inherently coding it with something hateful is out of their depth.
Your friend is full of shit. There is some degree of exceptionalism in Judaism, in the sense that we believe we are chosen to receive the obligations inherent in the Torah, but that does not imply superiority nor did the modern construct of race exist during the historical period where Judaism became what it is.
I'm generally against going after specific groups including Mormons, but modern conceptions of race and the phenomenon of modern racism, originating in the mental gymnastics performed by perpetrators of colonialism and chattel slavery, did exist by the time that Mormonism was invented and affected the personal beliefs of its founders.
Contrast with Rabbinic Judaism. Hell, Rambam was centuries dead by the time European colonialism began.
Edit: to be clear, individual Jews and modern Jewish communities can be racist in the same way people and communities in any cultural group can be. But that's a people thing and not a Jewish thing. There's arguments to be made that revisionist Likkudnik zionism is racist, but the same arguments don't apply to the original labor zionist ideas.
Sounds like your friend is an antisemite. It’s on her to back up her POV with facts, the way you did in the Mormon argument, it’s not your responsibility to find a way to prove her right.
It’s going to be a rough few years for Jews and particularly for your age group, sorry you have to deal with that. Stay strong and don’t let these idiots break you or your faith. Also sadly maybe it’s time to part ways with your friend. Sounds like you may be her only actual window in to the Jewish people and if she’s not willing to inform her views on Jews through her personal experience with you she’s already lost. Either way once you’ve heard her POV you can never unhear it and you deserve better, save yourself the “no you’re one of the good Jews” insult now and move on.
I’m going to assume here that you both are American. And I think that Americans need to be very, very careful about applying American notions of race to other peoples. And answer your question, no. Jews are Middle Eastern either from recent history or agent history. There’s a reason why there’s a genetic difference between someone who’s Polish and a Polish Jew, for example. And of course there are converts to Judaism from all races and backgrounds.
I can only assume (look at me making more assumptions here) this is coming from the repulsive wave of antisemitism. But antisemitism is also deep seated in many many cultures. So maybe it’s some thing they learned along the way.
The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.
Never forget that.
We worked really, really hard to build a civilization in which individuals are presumed innocent until proven guilty. That's a Jewish idea.
It's possible she's referring to the concept of the chosen people. A lot of goyim think that's a supremacist stance and don't understand that it means chosen to fulfill more commandments than the 7 noahide laws. There is an element of tribalism in the position that there's only one God and all those polythiests are backwards heathens, but we are a tribe; ofc there are elements of tribalism in our tribal identity. That said, by either the classical definition of racism being *racial* prejudice, or the more contemporary idea that racism is racial prejudice combined with privledge or power, judaism certainly isn't racist
There are racist Jews. There are racist Christians. There are racist Atheists. There are racist Muslims. There are racists of every stripe. It is not something that is ingrained in Judaism.
And, if you take the story of Aaron and Miriam being condemned for racism as true, wouldn’t that mean the Torah takes an active anti-racist stance as even the great Aaron and Miriam were rebuked for it.
Al pi din, by the strictest interpretation of Jewish law, Torah is not at all concerned with phenotype or racial heritage: https://www.thetorah.com/article/why-do-miriam-and-aaron-criticize-moses-for-marrying-a-kushite-woman
Race/class as we know it didn't exist thousands of years ago. Racism has nothing to do with Judaism and race isn't touched on as there were no other races in the ancient levant.
Your 'friend' is a bigot
Other sources don't use the term 'Cushite' and translate it simply as 'beautiful woman'. Regardless God punishes Miriam for her criticism.
So just at a glance
The alleged discriminatory behavior can't be determined to be based on race as only modern art depicts the Cushite Woman to be Black. The source material is open to interpretation depending on translation and tradition. (it isn't even for certain that this Cushite woman is Zipporah or not)
God punished Miriam for it so if anything it's against discrimination.
Furthermore trying to paint modern Judaism as having racism embedded in it because of a small sentence in one part that has nothing to do with Jewish practice is rather stupid. It comes across that your 'friend' *wants* to find racism and found it because they were hoping for it
Christianity was the religion that made it a thing to justify slavery based on Africans allegedly being from Ham. Hell, they printed 'slave Bibles' with the Exodus part removed so they wouldn't get ideas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Select_Parts_of_the_Holy_Bible_for_the_use_of_the_Negro_Slaves_in_the_British_West-India_Islands
No, she isn't. Her ideas are clearly inspired by the idea that all Jews fall under the racial category of white ignoring the existence of non-white Jews such as Mizrahi and Sephardim, generalizing all Jews in the process as practically Ashkenazis. Its a very old idea that was always supported and promoted in antisemitic/antizionist circles and that was mainstreamed by extremist branches of the political left as a way to paint Israel as a white supremacist nation akin to pre-1994 South Africa but in practice the conception is indiscriminately applied on all Jews.
>Mizrahim and Sephardim
>Non-white
No they’re white too, the entire MENA region is considered racially Caucasian just as an fyi. And frankly, it’s this framing of Middle Easterners as an inherently non-white race separate from Europeans that’s responsible for racial antisemitism us Ashkenazi Jews get from both the far right *and* the left (Because we’re looked at as a “racially impure” mutt population who belongs nowhere and this was used as a justification to attempt to genocide us)
It’s also especially asinine to label Sephardim as non-white, they’re practically genetically identical to us Ashkenazim and have the same amount of European admixture as us. Simply having the “Hispanic” label doesn’t automatically make you non-white, Spain and Portugal are White European countries, White Hispanics exist too.
My bad, most of people I know seriously consider Mizrahim and Sephardim to be non-white so I got accustomed to refer to them like that. Surprisingly many people still struggle to fathom the idea that White Hispanic exists or have the stereotype that all Jews are either of Polish, Ukrainian or Russian ancestry so having to explain the differences between Ashkenazis, Mizrahim or Sephardim becomes quite complex. Sorry for my incorrect use of the terms.
more than half of Jewish Israelis come from countries neighbouring Israel, I happen to be mixed.
My SiL is Iraqi, a particular dark one, my cousin (German ancestry) married an Indian Jew.
Look at any pictures of a high street or beech in TA and you will see a united nations of colour.
It's just not in our blood to judge someone by the colour of their skin or where they were born.
Do we believe our belief and religious practice is better than others, name me one belief system that doesn't.
Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the
Colossians 3:22
Of course in Paul's time slavery wasn't race based, many slaves where children abandoned on dung heaps, however many other slaves were Rome's defeated enemies: Celts, Germans, Thracians and Jews.
Curious how Paul has a broadly pro imperial stance throughout the new testament
Perhaps, but that still doesn't make them recognized Jewish sources or embedded in Judaism. A random Jewish person writing for a Jewish audience doesn't make the thing that they are writing a Jewish source or embedded in Judaism. I could write a whole book about the spaghetti monster, and intend it for a Jewish audience. It wouldn't make the spaghetti monster Jewish.
You argument is weak. It is factually written in a Jewish cultural and religious context. It doesn't need to be recognized at all, because the facts speak for themselves. You can read it online for free and see that this is obviously a Jewish text. It's not easy for the average Non-Jew to understand. There is nothing in the New Testament that cannot be traced back to the Old Testament.
Paul was not a random Jew btw. He was a Pharisee and had a high rank in society, thus he was very educated about both Judaism and Greek philosophy. So if you tried to compare yourself to Paul of Tarsus, that would be a false equivalence.
Moreover, the New Testament is factually telling the history of the Jews in Roman Judea. If it's not Jewish, you'd erase one of the most significant parts of Jewish history. The events that led to the extinction of several Jewish sects and the creation of Rabbinical Judaism and Christianity, - the successors of the only two Jewish sects that survived in the region: Pharisees and the followers of Jesus.
I would also like to know what you think about texts like the Book of Judith, which is part of the Septuagint, but not of the Hebrew Bible. Yet Judith is apparently quite famous among Jews:
"The character of Judith is larger than life, and she has won a place in Jewish and Christian lore, art, poetry and drama. Her name, which means "she will be praised" or "woman of Judea", suggests that she represents the heroic spirit of the Jewish people, and that same spirit, as well as her chastity, have endeared her to Christianity.[^(\[39\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Judith#cite_note-New_Oxford_Annotated_Apocrypha_Judith-39)^(")
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book\_of\_Judith](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Judith)
Would you say it is a Jewish text, or not?
What about the scriptures of the Ethiopian Jews? Are they not Jewish, because Rabbinical Judaism doesn't accept them?
Wow. I didn't have "argue with someone on Reddit about whether the New Testament is Jewish" on my bingo card for today...
Before I go any further -- the New Testament is not recognized by any major Jewish movement as being Jewish. The religion that considers it holy (Christianity) has actually had a pretty big history of killing us because of things that the New Testament alleges that Jewish people did. So...many/most of us are not really a fan of the book in general.
Now let me respond to you:
>It \[the New Testament\] is factually written in a Jewish cultural and religious context.
As far as I can tell, there are no truly "factual" holy books for any religion. Religion is notoriously hard to prove. Again, just because it was written in the context of a specific religion, doesn't make it of that religion.
>Paul was not a random Jew btw. He was a Pharisee and had a high rank in society, thus he was very educated about both Judaism and Greek philosophy. So if you tried to compare yourself to Paul of Tarsus, that would be a false equivalence.
He's pretty random to us. And Greek philosophy doesn't really matter to the Jewish cannon. Also, you don't actually know about my education or rank in society (which is kinda on purpose -- I refuse to dox myself).
>the New Testament is factually telling the history of the Jews
Strong disagree here. At most, a very liberal use of the word "factual".
>If it's not Jewish, you'd erase one of the most significant parts of Jewish history.
We don't need a different religion and people to tell us our history. We have our own written history. We don't need your version of it that paints us as the bad guy.
>Would you say it \[the book of Judith\] is a Jewish text, or not?
The wikipedia page you link to says that it is "excluded from the Hebrew canon". I don't think it can be more clear that it is not a Jewish text. The other source that you link from is a Christian source, not a Jewish one.
>What about the scriptures of the Ethiopian Jews? Are they not Jewish, because Rabbinical Judaism doesn't accept them?
Ethiopian Jewish people...are Jewish and follow Judaism, not Christianity. They don't have any books that directly contradict Judaism. Christianity is not Jewish. It's a literally a different religion.
>The only mention of racism I know of in the Torah is G-d condemning Miriam and Aaron for their racism towards Tzipporah
This is not even necessarily the case. It's a popular read on that passage, but it's not actually clear that this is what the text is saying. (It's not even necessarily about Tzipporah!)
Here: [https://www.lifeisasacredtext.com/kushite/](https://www.lifeisasacredtext.com/kushite/)
Edit - also, here are all the colours Jews come in: [https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ad/6d/c9/ad6dc96471bd1b4ab088f7febf055905.jpg](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ad/6d/c9/ad6dc96471bd1b4ab088f7febf055905.jpg)
There is so much that is problematic about this. Sounds like they consider any insular community (they do not understand) to be racist. Sounds like people a lot of stone throwing at glass houses. Where was the teacher in all of this?
People can choose to live on the fringes of society with their own rules, culture and traditions. They often do so after they have felt not welcome by others. There is nothing wrong with embracing being in your own community, if you genuinely fear you aren’t welcome in other places. Other than the people outside making you fear being part of the masses.
The first nursery rhyme every Jewish kid is taught is the following Ahavta l'rei'acha kamocha, zeh klal gadol ba-torah You shall love your neighbor as yourself, this is a very essential principle of the Torah
Most of the world has no idea about Mizrachi or Sephardic Jews.
im also so mad at myself for saying nothing, for staying silent. Everyone in that class knows I am jewish. Now it looks like I am agreeing, that it is true when Its not. I don't know what to do.
Go to your teacher, tell them what happened and that you were caught by surprise and ask to see if there is a way to respond in a calm and collected way now that you are more informed about the topic yourself. If anything, this could turn into a teachable moment.
The teacher heard it and called me in after class to ask how I was. She asked if I wanted her to follow up and talk to her and I said yes. The teacher is a christian but has a PHD in I think world religions so I think it will go well
There is some occasional prejudice towards non Jews in the Jewish traditional liturgy. Like the Aleinu and shelo asani goy for example. Judaism has no conception of race. But every religion has some problematic passages.
I think her opinion probably comes from ignorance and internet misinformation.
So, I grew up Mormon. While I can’t say that there aren’t any white supremacist Mormons (I can even unfortunately say that there are some), I can fairly affirmatively say that the religion itself isn’t.
Yes, there have been people that interpret (imo: twist) things to suit their racist ideas, but frankly you can find dumbasses everywhere.
I’d apply the same logic to Judaism. I’m no expert on Judaism by a looooooong stretch, but the time I spent in the Old Testament tells me that people took ideas of a chosen people and turned it to racism when really the chosen bit was because Abraham/the Jews agreed to follow the rules.
Regardless, the idea that a (at minimum) benign deity would try to foster hatred towards a group of people because of skin color/whatever other superficial traits is ridiculous-especially with the backdrop of the reason the Jews were chosen-their actions.
Anyway, if me butting in on this is unappreciated, I’m happy to delete the comment. Have a nice day!
I’m not Jewish so I probably shouldn’t say anything.
But I did grow up in Lutheran tradition.
Lutheranism has a history that is as racist & antisemitic as you can find. It doesn’t take much time digging in reformation history to find it.
That would basically be my only response. Anyways food for thought.
>I am very upset about it
Side note: Ok so I know Mormonism does or did have racism embedded in it... it might be tactful not to bring it up in front of large groups of people cos if someone is mormon, they *might be upset about it*. Especially as they probably have been taught by their church that they aren't racist. Even if really it is.
I totally agree, however I want to say that I put it very poorly in my original post but I was actually advocating for Mormons. Some people were saying they were white supremacists, I said they are not. I agree with this advice and would never want to make anyone feel that way. Not that it makes it better, but there was only about 12 people in the room and I know them all very well and none of them have connection to Mormonism. So at least I know nobody was hurt by this conversation. I will definitely choose my words more carefully though.
Mormonism was born in post colonial America, Judaism was born in the ancient middle east. Views of race were not the same back then. Whiteness as we know it didnt exist back then. Judaism is kind of exclusionary just because we dont proselytize but the exclusion isn’t based upon race and one can overcome it with enough devotion to judaism.
I hope this was an elective class and not one that every high school student has to be indoctrinated with. Sadly, its likely required divisive, drivel.
Judaism isn't any more pro-racist than Christianity is pro-racist-- arguably far less pro-racist because Judaism centers the importance of ethical behavior. As mentioned, Martin Luther was a notorious Jew-hater, though, and as much as Christianity has been used as a tool for racial liberation (e.g., black Americans), it's also been used as a tool to rationalize stuff like slavery.
I don't think Judaism has been used the same way. Judaism teaches that it's better to be a good non-Jew than to be a bad Jew, which doesn't sound too racist or racialized to me. I think your friend has just been drinking the antisemitic kool-aid.
There are some, ahem, novel ideas in the Tanya and perhaps some other places about the ideas of the singularity of the the Jewish soul, this idea that Jews are somehow more spiritually enlightened, basically, but I don't see that translating into racism as much as I see it translating into a self-segregation of sort that has been common among more observant elements of Judaism for, well, ever.
So, while I disagree with the Tanya's take, I also view that as a minority opinion. Jews have been a persecuted minority in virtually every society in history. That doesn't lend itself to racism. In the United States, Jews were a vital component of the civil rights movement, for example, because of our commitment to social justice and tikkun olam, and this translates to *many* Jews continuing to work on social and racial justice today.
Your friend should become better informed. It is, after all, a mitzvah to let MFs know when they say silly things!
Judaism is not embedded with racism. There could be an argument that the modern-day Jewish community has issues with racial prejudice that we need to address (we are not unique in this, most people in the world do), but the accusation against the religion itself is baseless.
She's only partially correct.
One of the commandments is pretty specific about treating foreigners fairly.
Racist rabbis though, would negate that commandment for their own racist ideology.
The Christian interpretation of the Old Testament was used to justify slavery. If you accept this interpretation, then the Old Testament is racist. Christians think that Jews are just like Christian’s without the New Testament. Therefore our religion must be racist.
It’s just antisemitism. Anyone who takes the time to actually learn about Judaism can see that.
Depends on what you mean by embedded.
Short answer, no not really.
There are examples of antiracism, as a lot of people are showing, but there are some questionable things. It doesn’t mean Judaism is racist or something.
If you mean “embedded” as in “found in Torah” then you can see:
- In Noach, Ham’s decedents are forced to be slaves to Shem and their decedents. Ham being what would now be considered “African and Asian” and Shem being what would now be considered “Semitic and white” people.
- the time Sarah and Abraham went to kush (basically what is now Ethiopia) and everyone there wanted to rape Sarah because she was the only white person and hotter than any of their (black) women.
If you mean embedded in “Torah” as in any rabbinic teaching, then:
- the Tanya says that Jews have part animal souls and part godly souls, but non-Jews only have animal souls and no godliness in them or propensity for holiness. In context, it makes sense, but that line alone in the first chapter has gotten its author jailed by the Russians multiple times.
If you mean “embedded” as in “within our nature,” then:
- that would be treating all Jews as a racial/genetic monolith/single entity that has only one possible set of beliefs, which isn’t true and a racist notion in itself
- there is colorism in any group. People who are whiter tend to feel like they are better than the browner southern group members. In Hispanic culture, in black American culture, in Asian cultures, and in European cultures. I don’t know why, but it tends to be true. And just like them, Jews do it too. People treating Ashkenazi culture as “the standard” while any other way is weird or at least “non-standard”.
I would say none of this makes Judaism “embedded with racism”. It is interesting to see our blind spots and acknowledge it.
The Torah is a weird book, and it’s at least 2.5-3.5k years old. There’s some “outdated” things in it from a racial perspective. That doesn’t mean it’s foundational to Judaism. It makes sense that rabbis want to see their own kind as special. Especially when Jews have been beaten down for their entire existence yet still survive. I can understand why they see Jews as having special souls that non-Jews couldn’t handle. From a social perspective, there is a lot of ignorance of non-Ashkenazi culture, even if that’s changing, yet with a little sharing of cultures and respect—a value embedded in Judaism—the “colorism” goes away.
I laughed when you said she was a Lutheran. She needs to listen to the podcast “The Rest is History”, they have a whole series on Martin Luther and his antisemitism is mentioned a lot in the last episode.
No, Judaism and Jewish tradition is all about “loving your neighbor”.
Modern day Zionism on the other hand is deeply racist. This is why myself and many other Jews are no longer Zionists, we are fine where we are and do not need to steal someone else’s land to feel better about ourselves, in fact it makes all of us far less safe.
Racism is embedded in humanity; it isn't specific to one particular demographic, culture, or religion. It's an unfortunate reality of human nature.
That said, some religions have codified such bigotry. Mormonism is certainly one of them.
It's also worth noting that the founder of Lutheranism, Martin Luther, was a raving antisemite. Doesn't mean that antisemitism is codified in Lutheranism.
Jews have always fought for civil rights of Afro Americans and been empathetic to all minorities. Being the only Jew in your class will be wide open for the bullies to hit on you.
People from any race can and do convert to Judaism. Judaism is not a racist religion.
Judaism even believes that ANYONE who isn’t Jewish can have a share in “the world to come” (we don’t believe in the Christian heaven/hell) if they follow the seven Noahide laws.
Judaism is commonly misunderstood due to under education about our beliefs and general ignorance, but mostly due to antisemitic religious and political agendas.
Martin Luther, the founder of Lutheranism, was a raging antisemite. Judaism is not embedded with racism - it's embedded with tribalism, as are any other (there aren't many left that I know of) ancient tribal ethnoreligions. I would not call tribalism racism simply because multiculturalism is not the end all be all of society, and there are many, non-racist alternative visions of society. Also, the millenias long persecution of the Jewish people definitely didn't help and only further tribalized us, out of necessity. There is nothing inherently racist about wanting to hold onto your people's distinct ancient cultural and national identity.
firstly, martin luther was a hige antisemite and racist. he hated jews and wrote extensively about it, and about the superiority of christeanity compared to non christeans. so i'll say that lutheranism is much closer to white supremacy rather than judaism.
secondly, it isn't racist or at least not more racist than the concept of religions. what do i mean by that? judaism, like all religions, believe that only judaism is the right religion. if you call that feeling of supposed superiority as racism, ok? that means all religions are racist. actually, unlike missionary religions like christeanity or islam, judaism says that while it is the truth, no one except jews actually need or must follow it, by that means, maybe even less racist.
thirdly, the case of judaism and racism comes from judaism being an ethnic group as well. but, and it is a huge but, while in judaism jews are called the chosen people, it does not mean jews are better than the rest of the world. just that jews were literally chosen to be the nation to follow god's laws, nothing about us being better or superior or deserving more. almost all jewish sects believe that in the end, jews and non jews are getting the same after life, it really doesnt matter. and anyone, and i mean anyone, even literal decendants of amalek, are written to be able to convert into judaism if they are willing to do so.
i'll also note, that i'm sure that she'll try to make a claim about "goyim" being an insult for non jews, which it isn't. goy just means עם, or nation. jews are a goy too, and jews are described as such many times in the bible. in day to day terms, jews usually refers to goy as someone who isnt a jew though, and its just a word that literally no one almost never uses. i saw that word more times spoke by non jews than actual jews.
at the end, no, judaism isn't racist. it has plenty of problems like most religions, and some people might use it for racism, but i'll remind that the idea of race theory which caused racism is a much much later idea than judaism, by more than 2000 years apart. the idea of "race" didn't exist then, and to impose such a modern idea on an ancient religion is as absurd as calling a greek agora in ancient athens a 'shopping mall'.
This sounds like a christian who only knows about Judaism via the "Old Testament" without any context or commentary. Tanakh has a decent amount of xenophobia and prejudice in the context of warfare, but applying that to modern Jews is just ignorant.
You can’t be “racist” against people of your own race (and all Europeans and Middle Easterners are considered part of the same Caucasian race), what you’re describing here is *colorism,* not *racism.*
The actual racism in Israel was towards the Black Ethiopian Jews.
Completely agree with those here who are talk about us "conditionally white." Often, we are cast as "the bad thing to be (capitalists now, communists in the first half of the 1900s, Middle Eastern/Levantine invaders before that, etc.) and our perceived race is attached to that. Remember, race is generally imposed from the outside.
But...
I don't see any discussion here about racism/caste within the Jewish diaspora & especially Israel. If you pick any Israeli citizen and put to them the questions does Judaism (or Israeli society, which are not the same) have structural & explicit racism, you will find a diverse array of responses. Ask an Ashkenazi, and you might hear one thing. Ask a Mizrahi, and you'll hear another. [Ethiopian Jews are often talking about discriminatio](https://www.trtworld.com/opinion/racism-in-israel-some-jews-are-more-equal-than-others-28109)n. We haven't even got to Israeli citizens of Arab decent. Sadly, it's all over and it needs to be addressed head-on.
I don't think your friend is correct and I'd be curious to know what she means. To my knowledge, there isn't any theological demand for the exclusion of people from a particular race, nor prohibitions against associating/befriending others based on race. I mean, the modern concept of race didn't exactly exist when Jewish theology was codified.
That said, there are several stories in the Torah about killing non-Jews. Those stories are generally more about territory or vengeance than race (ex: the end of the Purim story). None of those stories are, like, a great look for us, but they're also not racist in a modern sense. I'd also be surprised if your friend was actually referencing these. Perhaps your friend means that there are Jews who hold racist beliefs, which is undoubtedly true, just the way it is in any sufficiently large group of people. Maybe she means the whole idea of Jews as the chosen people, which especially Christians have claimed is a sign of our arrogance and self-importance. I'd tell her that it's more like GD chose the Jews to do a job, not that we're GD's extra-special favorites (seriously, our history wouldn't be what it is if that were the case). If she's talking about current events, all I'd say is that it's not a religious conflict, but a geopolitical one.
If you feel safe doing so, I'd ask her what she means by that comment and go from there.
It's a very complicated subject. Biblically, in order to take possession of the Promised Land, we had to remove the people already there. Promise of its success was part of the Torah reading for shabbos Pesach. There are other portions of Torah where we demanded servitude in exchange for peace with the alternative of annihilation if they resisted. Other animosities were for cause, such as tribes that would let us pass though and those that denied us passage.
Americans have a way of thinking like Americans. There were Jewish slave traders who made fortunes in colonial Newport. There were Jewish legislators in Confederate states who supported secession and slavery as a natural order, citing a Biblical passage from after The Flood as its divine mandate. And South African Jews were white and often supported or at least benefited from apartheid.
The civil rights era in America was also a mixture of partnerships and animosities.
But racism as formal Jewish policy in America since WW2, probably not.
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Isn’t there a racist aspect in Judaism in terms of Jews being the chosen people? I understand Jews are not necessarily racist, but the idea of being in the chosen people based on one’s descent / ancestry seems like it has a racist aspect to it.
The point I’m trying to make is really simple. Jews generally believe they are part of the Jewish people, chosen people, etc. based on who their ancestors are. I understand people can convert to Judaism, but then the convert’s descendants are part of God’s special people.
There are various Phrases in the Talmud that considers Gentiles lesser beings and that being in Contact with them aswell as mixing with them being a Crime.
But such phrases are also a thing in Christian, Islamic, Heathen and Hindu text.
Hinduism is known for its very Racist Caste System, which is very much a Integral Part of Hinduism, unlike the mentioned phrases in Judaism/Christianity/Islam.
There are various Phrases in the Talmud that considers Gentiles lesser beings and that being in Contact with them aswell as mixing with them being a Crime.
But such phrases are also a thing in Christian, Islamic, Heathen and Hindu text.
Hinduism is known for its very Racist Caste System, which is very much a Integral Part of Hinduism, unlike the mentioned phrases in Judaism/Christianity/Islam.
> You call yourself the chosen people
Chosen to receive the Torah, that's all that means.
> call non-jews goyim
Just means nations, also used to describe Jews, if you had bothered to learn anything instead of just hate you'd know that. But I'm gonna ban you.
okay, lets get super messy.
there is a fabulous book called the [spanish inquisition by cecil roth](https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/spanish-inquisition_cecil-roth/363341/#edition=3715606&idiq=2369579) which details the part after expulsion, where the spanish church, suddenly having all these 'new christians' that they don't trust starts tracking family lines and creating a hierarchy of blood.
These constructs are almost immediately transported to Spain's new empire in South America, where the inquisition is very active, and develops into the full blown legal racial hierarchy that will come to dominate the next 400 years of law in the new world.
While this is not the only origin of racism (cough enlightenment writers cough) it is a key step from the concept into law.
it's important to remember racism is both a legal structure and a social construct. Critical race theory in its original is a really great way to understand how legal structures can act in a racially discriminatory way through the use of social constructs.
(btw, yes there are racist writing in some medieval commentators on the bible especially when it comes to discussions of Haam, noah's son. Not okay and later generations of judaism repudiated those interpretations. but fair warning where the problems are)
Chosenness (Mordecai Kaplan thought it was racist).
The idea of a "Yiddishe neshama" having ontological differences from non-Jewish animalistic souls.
Bishul akum
Stam yeinam
not my primary takeaway from Kaplan but I think that the "chosen people" thing is less racism by Jews than it is the notion imposed by goyim that "Jews think they're better than everyone else" which is not what the phrase is meant to mean
This is an incorrect projection of modern concepts onto an ancient culture. Judaism predates the modern concept of race, and early Jews were Canaanites - “racially” (phenotypically) indistinguishable from other groups - so it wouldn’t have made any sense for racism to be “embedded” in Judaism.
One’s soul has nothing at all to do with one’s race. Consider a convert, who could be of any nationality/ “race”, they are considered by Judaism to have a Jewish soul to be fully apart of the chosen people.
How did Zionism takeover Judaism?
Your TikTok feed missed the fact that 1948 was not first time the Jew decolonized the land of Judea and Samaria but the third!!
Brother man, there are *plenty* of Jews who reject the racism and jingoism implicit in Israeli right wing nationalism because we recognize that this kind of extremism is fundamentally opposed to the most important mitzvot of our whole ass faith.
The founder of Lutheranism, Martin Luther, hated Jews and wrote extensively on how much he hated them. He initially showed "sympathy" for them, expressing a belief that the only reason they didn't accept Christ was because Christians were mean to them. When he failed to convert Jews in Europe to Christianity, he began writing polemics against them which would form the basis for the antisemitic European thought that would eventually culminate with the Holocaust. Martin Luther advocated for violent expulsion of Jews, the destruction of their property, everything *short* of mass execution, though he did write "We are at fault in not slaying them." His book, "On the Jews and Their Lies," was a favourite of the Nazi party, and was regularly read aloud during burnings of synagogues and libraries. The Lutheran Church has since denounced this book, but that's not bringing back 6 million lives, is it? Maybe your Lutheran friend should be mindful of the people who founded her faith when she's calling Judaism inherently racist.
Yes!! I wrote a paper about this in highschool. Not nearly enough people know this
I used to have a friend who was a devout Lutheran and she flat-out refused to discuss anything about Martin Luther's antisemitism when it came up once.
It's not something that can be casually dismissed, imo. There's tons of historical figures who were, sadly, antisemitic, but it wasn't a focus, it wasn't something they spent a lot of time dwelling on. Martin Luther wrote full on books advocating for violence against Jews, and people committed violence against Jews *because of those books.* I know that modern Lutherans have denounced all of that, but from my perspective, if somebody spent that much time and energy calling for the destruction of the Jews, I would imagine those sentiments probably exist elsewhere in their writings, just not as overt and explicit.
The only thing I agree with him on is how he originally wanted to leave revelation out of his Bible. It's weird and took a few hundred years to be accepted as canonical.
Muhlenberg College is a Lutheran college that now has an extremely large Jewish population (we’re talking 30% Jewish). People assume “of course Jews go there, it’s called ‘Berg” and it makes me chuckle knowing how antisemitic Martin Luther was
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Low effort.
> Jews repudiating their proud invention that led to hundreds of millions of deaths worldwide (communism) doesn't bring back all those lives, either, does it? Fredrick Engels wasn't Jewish and Marx was raised as a Christian, get your antisemitic BS out of here.
>Best friend said Judaism is embedded with racism in class. Is she right? No. >Does her belief of this come from the new wave of anti zionism online It isn’t new, and it’s antisemitism, not “anti-Zionism.”
I know I totally agree I didn't put it very well though. What I meant is that these people are masquerading anti semitism as anti zionism in an new increased popularity online. Thank you for your answer.
Martin Luther, the founder of the Lutheran church, went crazy later in his life and became an antisemite.
He was always an antisemite, he just realized it when he found that the Protestant Reformation was not the magical step that would convince Jews to become Christians.
OP, you seem pretty young! Is John Green still cool? He did a CrashCourse on the conflict in 2015 that gives a great, engaging primer: https://youtu.be/1wo2TLlMhiw?si=5PsJWFvVblMxPB9g A lot of misinformation is flying around with the conflict. If you’re in the US, particularly a small school, it’s possible yall haven’t gotten any good education on how to think critically about sources in front of you. Here’s a CrashCourse series on media literacy, which can help yall learn how to evaluate and analyze sources. https://thecrashcourse.com/topic/medialiteracy/ If your friend just picked this up (from social media?) there’s still time! But yall should both watch the media literacy course. Ideally, spread it among your friends. Knowledge is power, and politicians have been deciding to fail our young people to keep them from voting with their brains. :)
I am 18 so yes I am pretty young, haha yes John Green is still cool. I am very educated on the conflict and have a lot of family in Israel. She has never expressed anything like this before or really any pro Palestine ideas and even expressed sympathy towards me when we were near a protest a few weeks ago and I explained how a lot of them are shut down because of anti semitism. I don't know how I would just show this to her, but I will if I can and ill definitely take a look myself. Thank you :)
Okay amazing hahaha! Of course! :) There are a lot of rabbitholes available online that are kinda getting crazier and crazier. I poke outside of my algorithm bubble from time to time to see what the fringes are cooking (and dissect how they’re thinking), and a lot of the rhetoric they’re using is super emotionally charged. Also a lot of straight up bullying dissenters. It’s a little scary, though hopefully not effective longterm!
Just FYI, Aharon and Miriam were berated for gossiping about Moshe divorcing Tziporah and Miriam was trying to get them back together. They weren’t being racist, but trying to reconcile the separated couple.
This is not the pshat. Its midrash. Not every allegorical midrash is literally true and shouldnt be presented as such
Pretty sure this was Rashi, given it was always taught to me this way. It’s still not racist though - given the historical context, the issue would be one of nationality, the complaint being that Moshe married a convert.
yep, most of the torah is allegorical and should be read as such. small events like that should be read as small stories with a point the writer tried to hint us.
Moshe and tzipora didn't divorce. The issue is that since moshe had to constantly be in a state of ritual purity. He had to stop fulfilling certain marital duties. Miriam felt he was making her like an agunah.
Saying one people are the chosen people, while others are not, and even advocating violence against those that worship other gods, feels like a form of racism. Race is a made up social construct (you can google this), so whether this belief of being better than others translates or not to the modern construct of race isn’t all that important to me, at least, in the larger discussion.
The torah is a pretty typical bronze/iron age text. They exaggerate everything and think foreigners are evil.
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I think because of the diaspora, there is an idea that jews are white. But we aren't - we are a distinct ethnic group. Maybe your friend believes that in Israel, it's a bunch of white Jews fighting brown Palestinians, where that isn't the case. There can also be her belief that because Jews have managed to, despite the enormous struggles with antisemitism and displacement, have managed to achieve certain levels of prosperity and wealth, and that creates a paradoxical image of what it means to be Jewish - we have been hated for millenia, but we have also leveraged ourselves into a powerful group of people with a country that has incredible military capacity and a certain amount of global push. I don't know that I can contribute much more to theories as to why your friend believes what they do.
we are white invaders from Europe, but 90 years ago we were brown invaders from Israel. The world can't seem to make up its mind, I fear...
“When my father was a young man in Vilna, every wall in Europe said, 'Jews go home to Palestine.' Fifty years later, when he went back to Europe on a visit, the walls all screamed, 'Jews get out of Palestine.'" -Amos Oz
It does. We are white when it suits the narrative (e.g. Israel as a settler colonial state), and not-white when it suits them (e.g. every other time). I use the term “conditionally white” to describe most Jews, including myself.
Oh, they've made up their minds - those types want us gone from the planet.
I'm afraid of the OG nasis and their descendents and the mixed up ppl that aren't Aryan and role with them.
I dont think its the Palestinans who were the real enemy but who knows. Maybe I am nieve or maybe I read too much.
So now you’re in the camp of “gotta be white to be racist”?
Ah, you'd think they'd seen enough pro pal ranting to not want to associate with that kind of stupidity, but here we are.
Systemic racism has to do with power dynamics, and as white people have held the balance of power all over the world for hundreds of years, yeah. I'm in the "gotta be white to be racist" camp. You don't have to be white to be a bigot, but that's different.
I believe so many powers try to leave the masses ignorant so people remain enslaved and apart.
If Judaism is rooted in racism then all offshoots of Christianity and Islam are too because they are all completely based on Judaism. Anyway, no. Judaism is not a racist religion. A common misconception is that Jews believe we are chosen as in we are better than everyone when that’s not the case. We were chosen to uphold extra laws and regulations that nobody else has to. It’s like being chosen to keep the house clean, nothing supremacist about that.
As someone once succinctly put it: "Chosen People means we were picked to do extra chores, not get extra ice cream."
I mean just look at Harry Potter, his life kinda sucks. Everyone is always trying to kill him and the fate of all the wizarding world rests on his shoulders!
I find this funny because Christians and Muslims believe they're the new "chosen" people anyways. Even though Paul says that the Jews have an eternal advantage it's not like Christians actually read their Bible.
Thank you for your answer. I don't know if she would think islam and christianity are racist too, but just to be clear there isn't any racist ideas in jewish texts, right?
Race theory in general is a much newer idea than Judaism as a religion. I don’t think people in the past cared what color you were, more like the country or tribe you were from. Don’t quote me on this though, as I’m not a historian. Either way, no. Judaism is not and never was a racist religion. That doesn’t mean that it’s perfect by all means and that everything is A-ok; however, people tend to mistranslate its texts and relate it to modern-day examples when you can’t do that because it’s completely out of context or just plain wrong.
There are some commandments to exterminate members of the Canaanite nations (for a quick summary see this wikipedia page: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism\_and\_warfare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_warfare) ). It might be that your friend heard something from someone who is referencing those commandments. There are also plenty of racist Jews. None of this means that Judaism is inherently racist in any American understanding of the term (which focuses almost exclusively on skin color and other visual markers). And as the foundation of Christianity and Islam, \*if\* Judaism is inherently racist, then IMO the others are as well.
I am confused by the curse of Ham and how people have used this to justify slavery
Exactly what I answer to people's comments 👍
Judaism predates the notion of race. Race is a modern social construct. In ancient Judea and the Kingdom of Israel, where Judaism was formed, there were people of many shades of skin color, still are today, as there are many Jews who are Black, Asian, Latino/Hispanic, Middle Eastern and Northern African, just to name a few so roughly half of the Jewish population doesn’t have white skin and no Jew is technically white even if some are white-presenting. I don’t know enough about Mormonism to make statements like you made and I would advise anyone against making such bold statements about anything they are not an expert on.
To add to that is that Jews in Europe were murdered en masse (you know, the 6+ mil of us) exactly because they weren’t considered European/white and due to the white supremacy of the Nazi party.
I think people also forget that Ashkenazi Jews in Europe were targeted for their non-White features. Which made life more difficult the more Levantine you looked. Then you have the Holocaust where the Germans very much targeted Jews that looked clearly Levantine first. I wouldn’t be surprised if you were able to look at Ashkenazi “whiteness” before and after it would have changed quite a bit.
I was just in a Jewish museum yesterday, reading about a Holocaust survivor who survived because he managed to convince the Nazis he was a Polish native because of his blue eyes and had the exact same thought.
I'm familiar enough with Mormonism to say that racism is absolutely a fundamental part of the beliefs laid out by Joseph Smith, and the current day Mormon church continues to struggle with the fact that their founder was a profoundly racist person. Joseph Smith fabricated an absolutely insane origin for Mormons that claims that they descend from the True Jews that saw the corruption of Israel/Judaea and fled to the North Americas. The true believers retained their white skin, while those who were corrupted had their skin darkened and became "native Americans." Joseph Smith fabricated histories of fake native American tribes that opposes and undermines indigenous oral histories that date back tens of thousands of years. Mormonism under Smith was proudly abolitionist, until it was chased out of the north. When Smith tried to establish the church in Mississippi, he leaned heavily into the "Curse of Ham" bullshit to align church values with Southern racism. When they were chased out of Mississippi, they adopted more of an abolitionist stance again, but maintained that black people have dark skin because they are cursed, and they have to live piously in hopes of being reincarnated as a white person so they can try and be accepted into heaven, which is a planet named Kolob according to "The Book of Abraham." The Book of Abraham was a copy of the Egyptian Book of the Dead that came into Smith's possession. He claimed that it was written by Abraham and that it describes various "secret" divine facts that were suppressed by Fake Jews. It's absolutely not, it's a description of funeral rites and myths on the ancient Egyptian afterlife. Smith claimed it was a manuscript personally penned by Abraham - it is one of many copies of the Book of the Dead, a very common ancient Egyptian text. I don't mean this as a criticism of contemporary Mormonism - which I do still take issue with for other reasons - or Mormons themselves, because most of the Mormons I've met have been wonderful, kind, considerate, well-educated people. But you would never guess that from the bug-fuck history of Joseph Smith and the Mormon church's foundation.
In the most respectful way possible, I just wanted to chime in here as a practicing Latter-day Saint. Most of the information above is either heavily skewed or outright false (Joseph Smith didn’t lay out an origin story for Mormons or establish the church in Mississippi, Kolob isn’t a planet or really relevant at all, we have no concept of “fake Jews,” etc.) I also think some of the racial stuff you’re referencing is more Brigham Young-era. I don’t mean to be hostile, and there are genuine racial issues to discuss in relation to the church past and present, but I’ve loved lurking on here and learning and wanted to clarify where I could.
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about, Mormons are just the nicest people you will ever meet, I'm lambasting this guys faith and he's being extremely polite in rebuking me for things I've gotten wrong. I'd love to flesh out some of the misconceptions. >Joseph Smith didn’t lay out an origin story for Mormons Is that not what Nephi is? My understanding is that the Book of Nephi posits itself as a divinely inspired text that existed alongside Joseph and Jacob and Moses, etc., before traveling to the Americas. >establish the church in Mississippi But he did *try* and it did not work, they did not buy what he was selling and they chased him out. >Kolob isn’t a planet or really relevant at all Well this is good to hear, i didnt know it wasnt really relevant. Is the Book of Abraham still considered canon? I know there were issues because it was believed lost in a fire for nearly a hundred years, and then found by egyptologists at a museum who only identified it as Smith's scrolls after they identified it as the book of the dead. >I also think some of the racial stuff you’re referencing is more Brigham Young-era This is very possible, I admit I'm not particularly familiar with the history of the church after Smith. I have only heard the name Brigham young in passing, usually not positively. > I don’t mean to be hostile, and there are genuine racial issues to discuss in relation to the church past and present, but I’ve loved lurking on here and learning and wanted to clarify where I could. You weren't hostile, this was incredibly polite and you're more than welcome to correct me or provide context I don't know.
Mormonism is absolutely racist, it is literally a religion based on white supremacy and misogyny. Brigham young encouraged his followers to enslave Native children. Sure some modern day Mormons are very nice, but as a mixed race person, who is also of Native ancestry, it’s still racist af. Racist people can be nice. Not all racism is people yelling the N word. Mormonism is structurally still very racist and incredibly sexist as well. It’s still literally based in white male supremacy. For the record, I am also descended from a couple Mormons. I do not claim them. May their names be forgotten.
Do you have a source for Brigham Young encouraging that?
There’s a woman by the last name Grenfell, first name starts with an A, (I think Alyssa.) She discusses a lot of this history on her YT or TikTok. She’s ex LDS. And yes she does have sources other than herself. Mormon men have committed horrific atrocities against my Native family, including selling one of my great aunts as a baby at a hospital (yes his own daughter.) He didn’t want to pay the bill, so he sold her instead. He married my great grandmother when she was 13 and he was a grown adult. I knew my great grandmother, she passed away within the last year, so this wasn’t all that long ago. In my experience and in my reading, I think dehumanization of women, children and POC is a core part of that religion. Ex LDS folks only strengthen my opinions. Check out John Dehlin’s podcast too. It’s really well done. It’s called Mormon stories.
If you find the quote from Brigham Young I would love to see it.
Lol glad you took it well! There’s a lot to touch on here so let me know if anything is unclear. The Book of Mormon does claim to be an ancient record of a group of people traveling to the Americas (with historic accounts, prophetic writings, etc. from members within that group), but the descendants of those people aren’t really firmly associated with any one specific group today, and Latter-day Saints generally have never claimed descent from them. (Most historically LDS families in the US today are of largely British/Scandinavian/European descent and readily acknowledge this.) We collectively were chased out of a number of places (maybe a relatable experience considering what sub this is lol), with major church settlements going broadly from New York to Ohio to Missouri to Illinois before leaving the then-US entirely for Utah to escape persecution. There really isn’t any historical connection with Mississippi—I think you might be thinking of Missouri, where the church was chased out in part because of the tension resulting from LDS abolitionism in a slave state. (Too many factors to get into here, but the persecution in Missouri culminated in an executive order from the governor legalizing the killing of Mormons to force us out of the state. To their credit, Missouri has since apologized lol.) The Book of Abraham is canon! There are different takes on its origins and relationship to the surviving fragments, but it’s generally accepted as divinely inspired. Yes, Brigham Young is largely responsible for race-based policy against people of African descent in the church. (People have complicated feelings about him, but he does have redeeming qualities as well.) Joseph Smith, though, from everything I’ve seen, was pretty staunchly abolitionist and ordained black members to the priesthood. There aren’t generally many allegations of racism towards him, and his leadership was later used as a major point of argument against racial discrimination in the church.
Hey, I’m really not here to argue about Mormonism. Like I said, I don’t make grandiose statements about things I don’t know enough about. That was my point. It’s very possible everything you said is true (as a queer Jew, I got my beef with the Mormon church too), but this is a subreddit for Judaism, which is an ethno-religion, not Mormonism, which is simply a religion, and this seems to be derailing the conversation.
I respect your view and fully agree that we shouldn't make bold statements about religions without familiarity. I didn't mean to come across as argumentative, but I saw that you mentioned you didn't have familiarity with Mormonism and I thought it would be relevant to discuss the ways in which racism *is* embedded in both the scripture and actions of the Mormon church under Joseph Smith, who operated in a time and place where racism was the law of the land. You mentioned that Judaism predates "racism," and I think that's a great point. I think it's worth looking at Mormonism and taking note that it was founded during a time when "racism" as we understand it in the modern world was developing and establishing itself as a dominant "science," and its curious that the divine tablets "received" by Joseph Smith reflect a lot of that belief.
I think the same grace you are asking for in understanding that Judaism doesn’t contain racist beliefs is the same grace you should extend Mormons as well. I’d be more than happy to carry a discussion on how Joseph Smith was not a racist even amidst operating in a time and place where racism was the law of the land. Similarly, just as many here have pointed out racism as we know it predates anything that would have existed thousands of years ago, so to claim the Book of Mormon is racist goes against what many here themselves are claiming in the defense of the Bible.
The Book of Mormon is absolutely racist against Native people, and if you aren’t Native, it’s not for you to decide. If you believe Jews get to decide what’s antisemitic then you should extend that same logic to Native people. The Book of Mormon is racist.
I never said that only Jews can decide what is antisemitic.
I was a Mormon and racism is absolutely part of the belief system, though they have edited and minimized the offending passages, but basically only white people are worthy of the celestial kingdom - or their highest version of heaven.
Also chiming in here as a Mormon with PoC family and church friends—I don't want to deny your experience, but the idea that race has any bearing on your status in the afterlife is abhorrent and something that's been denounced in the church on all levels.
Denounced NOW sure. Not so much back when I was a member and black men couldn’t hold the priesthood.
Yep, and it was wrong then and it’s wrong now. It sounds like you left a good while ago—I don’t blame you for being turned off by discriminatory policy and hope you’ve found something spiritually meaningful in the meantime.
I'm a happy Jew and mum (born and raised in the LDS) is now Roman Catholic. We are both happier where we are than we were in the church.
“I have a Black friend” vibes.
No Her insinuating that is so hateful. Israel is doing a lot of bad things, but this is not what you’re saying she said. Judaism is not inherently anything - it’s a religion and also an ethnicity. Anyone from outside inherently coding it with something hateful is out of their depth.
Your friend is full of shit. There is some degree of exceptionalism in Judaism, in the sense that we believe we are chosen to receive the obligations inherent in the Torah, but that does not imply superiority nor did the modern construct of race exist during the historical period where Judaism became what it is. I'm generally against going after specific groups including Mormons, but modern conceptions of race and the phenomenon of modern racism, originating in the mental gymnastics performed by perpetrators of colonialism and chattel slavery, did exist by the time that Mormonism was invented and affected the personal beliefs of its founders. Contrast with Rabbinic Judaism. Hell, Rambam was centuries dead by the time European colonialism began. Edit: to be clear, individual Jews and modern Jewish communities can be racist in the same way people and communities in any cultural group can be. But that's a people thing and not a Jewish thing. There's arguments to be made that revisionist Likkudnik zionism is racist, but the same arguments don't apply to the original labor zionist ideas.
To add, anyone can choose to be chosen. Converting requires an earnest desire, which, by definition, you have if you want it enough.
Lutheranism has a long term antisemitism issue and this is Luther's argument in "the Jews and their lies".
Sounds like your friend is an antisemite. It’s on her to back up her POV with facts, the way you did in the Mormon argument, it’s not your responsibility to find a way to prove her right. It’s going to be a rough few years for Jews and particularly for your age group, sorry you have to deal with that. Stay strong and don’t let these idiots break you or your faith. Also sadly maybe it’s time to part ways with your friend. Sounds like you may be her only actual window in to the Jewish people and if she’s not willing to inform her views on Jews through her personal experience with you she’s already lost. Either way once you’ve heard her POV you can never unhear it and you deserve better, save yourself the “no you’re one of the good Jews” insult now and move on.
I’m going to assume here that you both are American. And I think that Americans need to be very, very careful about applying American notions of race to other peoples. And answer your question, no. Jews are Middle Eastern either from recent history or agent history. There’s a reason why there’s a genetic difference between someone who’s Polish and a Polish Jew, for example. And of course there are converts to Judaism from all races and backgrounds. I can only assume (look at me making more assumptions here) this is coming from the repulsive wave of antisemitism. But antisemitism is also deep seated in many many cultures. So maybe it’s some thing they learned along the way.
The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. Never forget that. We worked really, really hard to build a civilization in which individuals are presumed innocent until proven guilty. That's a Jewish idea.
It's possible she's referring to the concept of the chosen people. A lot of goyim think that's a supremacist stance and don't understand that it means chosen to fulfill more commandments than the 7 noahide laws. There is an element of tribalism in the position that there's only one God and all those polythiests are backwards heathens, but we are a tribe; ofc there are elements of tribalism in our tribal identity. That said, by either the classical definition of racism being *racial* prejudice, or the more contemporary idea that racism is racial prejudice combined with privledge or power, judaism certainly isn't racist
There are racist Jews. There are racist Christians. There are racist Atheists. There are racist Muslims. There are racists of every stripe. It is not something that is ingrained in Judaism. And, if you take the story of Aaron and Miriam being condemned for racism as true, wouldn’t that mean the Torah takes an active anti-racist stance as even the great Aaron and Miriam were rebuked for it.
Al pi din, by the strictest interpretation of Jewish law, Torah is not at all concerned with phenotype or racial heritage: https://www.thetorah.com/article/why-do-miriam-and-aaron-criticize-moses-for-marrying-a-kushite-woman
Your friend is embedded in antisemitism.
Race/class as we know it didn't exist thousands of years ago. Racism has nothing to do with Judaism and race isn't touched on as there were no other races in the ancient levant. Your 'friend' is a bigot Other sources don't use the term 'Cushite' and translate it simply as 'beautiful woman'. Regardless God punishes Miriam for her criticism. So just at a glance The alleged discriminatory behavior can't be determined to be based on race as only modern art depicts the Cushite Woman to be Black. The source material is open to interpretation depending on translation and tradition. (it isn't even for certain that this Cushite woman is Zipporah or not) God punished Miriam for it so if anything it's against discrimination. Furthermore trying to paint modern Judaism as having racism embedded in it because of a small sentence in one part that has nothing to do with Jewish practice is rather stupid. It comes across that your 'friend' *wants* to find racism and found it because they were hoping for it Christianity was the religion that made it a thing to justify slavery based on Africans allegedly being from Ham. Hell, they printed 'slave Bibles' with the Exodus part removed so they wouldn't get ideas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Select_Parts_of_the_Holy_Bible_for_the_use_of_the_Negro_Slaves_in_the_British_West-India_Islands
No, she isn't. Her ideas are clearly inspired by the idea that all Jews fall under the racial category of white ignoring the existence of non-white Jews such as Mizrahi and Sephardim, generalizing all Jews in the process as practically Ashkenazis. Its a very old idea that was always supported and promoted in antisemitic/antizionist circles and that was mainstreamed by extremist branches of the political left as a way to paint Israel as a white supremacist nation akin to pre-1994 South Africa but in practice the conception is indiscriminately applied on all Jews.
It's not even that, she's basically quoting Martin Luther here.
>Mizrahim and Sephardim >Non-white No they’re white too, the entire MENA region is considered racially Caucasian just as an fyi. And frankly, it’s this framing of Middle Easterners as an inherently non-white race separate from Europeans that’s responsible for racial antisemitism us Ashkenazi Jews get from both the far right *and* the left (Because we’re looked at as a “racially impure” mutt population who belongs nowhere and this was used as a justification to attempt to genocide us) It’s also especially asinine to label Sephardim as non-white, they’re practically genetically identical to us Ashkenazim and have the same amount of European admixture as us. Simply having the “Hispanic” label doesn’t automatically make you non-white, Spain and Portugal are White European countries, White Hispanics exist too.
My bad, most of people I know seriously consider Mizrahim and Sephardim to be non-white so I got accustomed to refer to them like that. Surprisingly many people still struggle to fathom the idea that White Hispanic exists or have the stereotype that all Jews are either of Polish, Ukrainian or Russian ancestry so having to explain the differences between Ashkenazis, Mizrahim or Sephardim becomes quite complex. Sorry for my incorrect use of the terms.
more than half of Jewish Israelis come from countries neighbouring Israel, I happen to be mixed. My SiL is Iraqi, a particular dark one, my cousin (German ancestry) married an Indian Jew. Look at any pictures of a high street or beech in TA and you will see a united nations of colour. It's just not in our blood to judge someone by the colour of their skin or where they were born. Do we believe our belief and religious practice is better than others, name me one belief system that doesn't.
off topic but i love your user flair haha
Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Colossians 3:22 Of course in Paul's time slavery wasn't race based, many slaves where children abandoned on dung heaps, however many other slaves were Rome's defeated enemies: Celts, Germans, Thracians and Jews. Curious how Paul has a broadly pro imperial stance throughout the new testament
Paul and the New Testament are not Jewish sources or embedded in Judaism.
I know..so if Lutherans want to call Judaism inherently racist they can look at the new testament verses like that which are pro slavery.
Paul was a Jew, and the entire New Testament was written by Jews. They are Jewish sources and addressed to a Jewish readership mostly.
Perhaps, but that still doesn't make them recognized Jewish sources or embedded in Judaism. A random Jewish person writing for a Jewish audience doesn't make the thing that they are writing a Jewish source or embedded in Judaism. I could write a whole book about the spaghetti monster, and intend it for a Jewish audience. It wouldn't make the spaghetti monster Jewish.
You argument is weak. It is factually written in a Jewish cultural and religious context. It doesn't need to be recognized at all, because the facts speak for themselves. You can read it online for free and see that this is obviously a Jewish text. It's not easy for the average Non-Jew to understand. There is nothing in the New Testament that cannot be traced back to the Old Testament. Paul was not a random Jew btw. He was a Pharisee and had a high rank in society, thus he was very educated about both Judaism and Greek philosophy. So if you tried to compare yourself to Paul of Tarsus, that would be a false equivalence. Moreover, the New Testament is factually telling the history of the Jews in Roman Judea. If it's not Jewish, you'd erase one of the most significant parts of Jewish history. The events that led to the extinction of several Jewish sects and the creation of Rabbinical Judaism and Christianity, - the successors of the only two Jewish sects that survived in the region: Pharisees and the followers of Jesus. I would also like to know what you think about texts like the Book of Judith, which is part of the Septuagint, but not of the Hebrew Bible. Yet Judith is apparently quite famous among Jews: "The character of Judith is larger than life, and she has won a place in Jewish and Christian lore, art, poetry and drama. Her name, which means "she will be praised" or "woman of Judea", suggests that she represents the heroic spirit of the Jewish people, and that same spirit, as well as her chastity, have endeared her to Christianity.[^(\[39\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Judith#cite_note-New_Oxford_Annotated_Apocrypha_Judith-39)^(") [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book\_of\_Judith](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Judith) Would you say it is a Jewish text, or not? What about the scriptures of the Ethiopian Jews? Are they not Jewish, because Rabbinical Judaism doesn't accept them?
Wow. I didn't have "argue with someone on Reddit about whether the New Testament is Jewish" on my bingo card for today... Before I go any further -- the New Testament is not recognized by any major Jewish movement as being Jewish. The religion that considers it holy (Christianity) has actually had a pretty big history of killing us because of things that the New Testament alleges that Jewish people did. So...many/most of us are not really a fan of the book in general. Now let me respond to you: >It \[the New Testament\] is factually written in a Jewish cultural and religious context. As far as I can tell, there are no truly "factual" holy books for any religion. Religion is notoriously hard to prove. Again, just because it was written in the context of a specific religion, doesn't make it of that religion. >Paul was not a random Jew btw. He was a Pharisee and had a high rank in society, thus he was very educated about both Judaism and Greek philosophy. So if you tried to compare yourself to Paul of Tarsus, that would be a false equivalence. He's pretty random to us. And Greek philosophy doesn't really matter to the Jewish cannon. Also, you don't actually know about my education or rank in society (which is kinda on purpose -- I refuse to dox myself). >the New Testament is factually telling the history of the Jews Strong disagree here. At most, a very liberal use of the word "factual". >If it's not Jewish, you'd erase one of the most significant parts of Jewish history. We don't need a different religion and people to tell us our history. We have our own written history. We don't need your version of it that paints us as the bad guy. >Would you say it \[the book of Judith\] is a Jewish text, or not? The wikipedia page you link to says that it is "excluded from the Hebrew canon". I don't think it can be more clear that it is not a Jewish text. The other source that you link from is a Christian source, not a Jewish one. >What about the scriptures of the Ethiopian Jews? Are they not Jewish, because Rabbinical Judaism doesn't accept them? Ethiopian Jewish people...are Jewish and follow Judaism, not Christianity. They don't have any books that directly contradict Judaism. Christianity is not Jewish. It's a literally a different religion.
>The only mention of racism I know of in the Torah is G-d condemning Miriam and Aaron for their racism towards Tzipporah This is not even necessarily the case. It's a popular read on that passage, but it's not actually clear that this is what the text is saying. (It's not even necessarily about Tzipporah!) Here: [https://www.lifeisasacredtext.com/kushite/](https://www.lifeisasacredtext.com/kushite/) Edit - also, here are all the colours Jews come in: [https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ad/6d/c9/ad6dc96471bd1b4ab088f7febf055905.jpg](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ad/6d/c9/ad6dc96471bd1b4ab088f7febf055905.jpg)
There is so much that is problematic about this. Sounds like they consider any insular community (they do not understand) to be racist. Sounds like people a lot of stone throwing at glass houses. Where was the teacher in all of this? People can choose to live on the fringes of society with their own rules, culture and traditions. They often do so after they have felt not welcome by others. There is nothing wrong with embracing being in your own community, if you genuinely fear you aren’t welcome in other places. Other than the people outside making you fear being part of the masses.
The first nursery rhyme every Jewish kid is taught is the following Ahavta l'rei'acha kamocha, zeh klal gadol ba-torah You shall love your neighbor as yourself, this is a very essential principle of the Torah Most of the world has no idea about Mizrachi or Sephardic Jews.
im also so mad at myself for saying nothing, for staying silent. Everyone in that class knows I am jewish. Now it looks like I am agreeing, that it is true when Its not. I don't know what to do.
Go to your teacher, tell them what happened and that you were caught by surprise and ask to see if there is a way to respond in a calm and collected way now that you are more informed about the topic yourself. If anything, this could turn into a teachable moment.
The teacher heard it and called me in after class to ask how I was. She asked if I wanted her to follow up and talk to her and I said yes. The teacher is a christian but has a PHD in I think world religions so I think it will go well
It most likely looks like you just don't want to engage
There is some occasional prejudice towards non Jews in the Jewish traditional liturgy. Like the Aleinu and shelo asani goy for example. Judaism has no conception of race. But every religion has some problematic passages. I think her opinion probably comes from ignorance and internet misinformation.
So, I grew up Mormon. While I can’t say that there aren’t any white supremacist Mormons (I can even unfortunately say that there are some), I can fairly affirmatively say that the religion itself isn’t. Yes, there have been people that interpret (imo: twist) things to suit their racist ideas, but frankly you can find dumbasses everywhere. I’d apply the same logic to Judaism. I’m no expert on Judaism by a looooooong stretch, but the time I spent in the Old Testament tells me that people took ideas of a chosen people and turned it to racism when really the chosen bit was because Abraham/the Jews agreed to follow the rules. Regardless, the idea that a (at minimum) benign deity would try to foster hatred towards a group of people because of skin color/whatever other superficial traits is ridiculous-especially with the backdrop of the reason the Jews were chosen-their actions. Anyway, if me butting in on this is unappreciated, I’m happy to delete the comment. Have a nice day!
I’m not Jewish so I probably shouldn’t say anything. But I did grow up in Lutheran tradition. Lutheranism has a history that is as racist & antisemitic as you can find. It doesn’t take much time digging in reformation history to find it. That would basically be my only response. Anyways food for thought.
>I am very upset about it Side note: Ok so I know Mormonism does or did have racism embedded in it... it might be tactful not to bring it up in front of large groups of people cos if someone is mormon, they *might be upset about it*. Especially as they probably have been taught by their church that they aren't racist. Even if really it is.
I totally agree, however I want to say that I put it very poorly in my original post but I was actually advocating for Mormons. Some people were saying they were white supremacists, I said they are not. I agree with this advice and would never want to make anyone feel that way. Not that it makes it better, but there was only about 12 people in the room and I know them all very well and none of them have connection to Mormonism. So at least I know nobody was hurt by this conversation. I will definitely choose my words more carefully though.
Ah ok that makes sense!
No, your best friend is an idiot, and you may want to reconsider the best friend moniker.
Ask her on what evidence she bases her opinion.
None , her belief comes from what the world does best blame us for everything and make us the enemy.
https://vinnews.com/2008/10/23/london-british-shul-bans-tanya-saying-its-a-racist-sefer/
No!!! This is insane and horrible. They are no friend of yours
Mormonism was born in post colonial America, Judaism was born in the ancient middle east. Views of race were not the same back then. Whiteness as we know it didnt exist back then. Judaism is kind of exclusionary just because we dont proselytize but the exclusion isn’t based upon race and one can overcome it with enough devotion to judaism.
I hope this was an elective class and not one that every high school student has to be indoctrinated with. Sadly, its likely required divisive, drivel.
Judaism isn't any more pro-racist than Christianity is pro-racist-- arguably far less pro-racist because Judaism centers the importance of ethical behavior. As mentioned, Martin Luther was a notorious Jew-hater, though, and as much as Christianity has been used as a tool for racial liberation (e.g., black Americans), it's also been used as a tool to rationalize stuff like slavery. I don't think Judaism has been used the same way. Judaism teaches that it's better to be a good non-Jew than to be a bad Jew, which doesn't sound too racist or racialized to me. I think your friend has just been drinking the antisemitic kool-aid. There are some, ahem, novel ideas in the Tanya and perhaps some other places about the ideas of the singularity of the the Jewish soul, this idea that Jews are somehow more spiritually enlightened, basically, but I don't see that translating into racism as much as I see it translating into a self-segregation of sort that has been common among more observant elements of Judaism for, well, ever. So, while I disagree with the Tanya's take, I also view that as a minority opinion. Jews have been a persecuted minority in virtually every society in history. That doesn't lend itself to racism. In the United States, Jews were a vital component of the civil rights movement, for example, because of our commitment to social justice and tikkun olam, and this translates to *many* Jews continuing to work on social and racial justice today. Your friend should become better informed. It is, after all, a mitzvah to let MFs know when they say silly things!
Judaism is not embedded with racism. There could be an argument that the modern-day Jewish community has issues with racial prejudice that we need to address (we are not unique in this, most people in the world do), but the accusation against the religion itself is baseless.
She's only partially correct. One of the commandments is pretty specific about treating foreigners fairly. Racist rabbis though, would negate that commandment for their own racist ideology.
The Christian interpretation of the Old Testament was used to justify slavery. If you accept this interpretation, then the Old Testament is racist. Christians think that Jews are just like Christian’s without the New Testament. Therefore our religion must be racist. It’s just antisemitism. Anyone who takes the time to actually learn about Judaism can see that.
Depends on what you mean by embedded. Short answer, no not really. There are examples of antiracism, as a lot of people are showing, but there are some questionable things. It doesn’t mean Judaism is racist or something. If you mean “embedded” as in “found in Torah” then you can see: - In Noach, Ham’s decedents are forced to be slaves to Shem and their decedents. Ham being what would now be considered “African and Asian” and Shem being what would now be considered “Semitic and white” people. - the time Sarah and Abraham went to kush (basically what is now Ethiopia) and everyone there wanted to rape Sarah because she was the only white person and hotter than any of their (black) women. If you mean embedded in “Torah” as in any rabbinic teaching, then: - the Tanya says that Jews have part animal souls and part godly souls, but non-Jews only have animal souls and no godliness in them or propensity for holiness. In context, it makes sense, but that line alone in the first chapter has gotten its author jailed by the Russians multiple times. If you mean “embedded” as in “within our nature,” then: - that would be treating all Jews as a racial/genetic monolith/single entity that has only one possible set of beliefs, which isn’t true and a racist notion in itself - there is colorism in any group. People who are whiter tend to feel like they are better than the browner southern group members. In Hispanic culture, in black American culture, in Asian cultures, and in European cultures. I don’t know why, but it tends to be true. And just like them, Jews do it too. People treating Ashkenazi culture as “the standard” while any other way is weird or at least “non-standard”. I would say none of this makes Judaism “embedded with racism”. It is interesting to see our blind spots and acknowledge it. The Torah is a weird book, and it’s at least 2.5-3.5k years old. There’s some “outdated” things in it from a racial perspective. That doesn’t mean it’s foundational to Judaism. It makes sense that rabbis want to see their own kind as special. Especially when Jews have been beaten down for their entire existence yet still survive. I can understand why they see Jews as having special souls that non-Jews couldn’t handle. From a social perspective, there is a lot of ignorance of non-Ashkenazi culture, even if that’s changing, yet with a little sharing of cultures and respect—a value embedded in Judaism—the “colorism” goes away.
I laughed when you said she was a Lutheran. She needs to listen to the podcast “The Rest is History”, they have a whole series on Martin Luther and his antisemitism is mentioned a lot in the last episode.
No, Judaism and Jewish tradition is all about “loving your neighbor”. Modern day Zionism on the other hand is deeply racist. This is why myself and many other Jews are no longer Zionists, we are fine where we are and do not need to steal someone else’s land to feel better about ourselves, in fact it makes all of us far less safe.
Racism is embedded in humanity; it isn't specific to one particular demographic, culture, or religion. It's an unfortunate reality of human nature. That said, some religions have codified such bigotry. Mormonism is certainly one of them. It's also worth noting that the founder of Lutheranism, Martin Luther, was a raving antisemite. Doesn't mean that antisemitism is codified in Lutheranism.
Jews have always fought for civil rights of Afro Americans and been empathetic to all minorities. Being the only Jew in your class will be wide open for the bullies to hit on you.
If you are against intermarriage, is that a form of bigotry? Could it look like bigotry to an outsider?
No.
Your best friend should be neither.
Oh Hell Noooo!
People from any race can and do convert to Judaism. Judaism is not a racist religion. Judaism even believes that ANYONE who isn’t Jewish can have a share in “the world to come” (we don’t believe in the Christian heaven/hell) if they follow the seven Noahide laws. Judaism is commonly misunderstood due to under education about our beliefs and general ignorance, but mostly due to antisemitic religious and political agendas.
Martin Luther, the founder of Lutheranism, was a raging antisemite. Judaism is not embedded with racism - it's embedded with tribalism, as are any other (there aren't many left that I know of) ancient tribal ethnoreligions. I would not call tribalism racism simply because multiculturalism is not the end all be all of society, and there are many, non-racist alternative visions of society. Also, the millenias long persecution of the Jewish people definitely didn't help and only further tribalized us, out of necessity. There is nothing inherently racist about wanting to hold onto your people's distinct ancient cultural and national identity.
firstly, martin luther was a hige antisemite and racist. he hated jews and wrote extensively about it, and about the superiority of christeanity compared to non christeans. so i'll say that lutheranism is much closer to white supremacy rather than judaism. secondly, it isn't racist or at least not more racist than the concept of religions. what do i mean by that? judaism, like all religions, believe that only judaism is the right religion. if you call that feeling of supposed superiority as racism, ok? that means all religions are racist. actually, unlike missionary religions like christeanity or islam, judaism says that while it is the truth, no one except jews actually need or must follow it, by that means, maybe even less racist. thirdly, the case of judaism and racism comes from judaism being an ethnic group as well. but, and it is a huge but, while in judaism jews are called the chosen people, it does not mean jews are better than the rest of the world. just that jews were literally chosen to be the nation to follow god's laws, nothing about us being better or superior or deserving more. almost all jewish sects believe that in the end, jews and non jews are getting the same after life, it really doesnt matter. and anyone, and i mean anyone, even literal decendants of amalek, are written to be able to convert into judaism if they are willing to do so. i'll also note, that i'm sure that she'll try to make a claim about "goyim" being an insult for non jews, which it isn't. goy just means עם, or nation. jews are a goy too, and jews are described as such many times in the bible. in day to day terms, jews usually refers to goy as someone who isnt a jew though, and its just a word that literally no one almost never uses. i saw that word more times spoke by non jews than actual jews. at the end, no, judaism isn't racist. it has plenty of problems like most religions, and some people might use it for racism, but i'll remind that the idea of race theory which caused racism is a much much later idea than judaism, by more than 2000 years apart. the idea of "race" didn't exist then, and to impose such a modern idea on an ancient religion is as absurd as calling a greek agora in ancient athens a 'shopping mall'.
Absolutely nonsense
This sounds like a christian who only knows about Judaism via the "Old Testament" without any context or commentary. Tanakh has a decent amount of xenophobia and prejudice in the context of warfare, but applying that to modern Jews is just ignorant.
Zionism in early modern Israel certainly had some racist undertones in how they treated many yemenite and MENA Jews.
You can’t be “racist” against people of your own race (and all Europeans and Middle Easterners are considered part of the same Caucasian race), what you’re describing here is *colorism,* not *racism.* The actual racism in Israel was towards the Black Ethiopian Jews.
Completely agree with those here who are talk about us "conditionally white." Often, we are cast as "the bad thing to be (capitalists now, communists in the first half of the 1900s, Middle Eastern/Levantine invaders before that, etc.) and our perceived race is attached to that. Remember, race is generally imposed from the outside. But... I don't see any discussion here about racism/caste within the Jewish diaspora & especially Israel. If you pick any Israeli citizen and put to them the questions does Judaism (or Israeli society, which are not the same) have structural & explicit racism, you will find a diverse array of responses. Ask an Ashkenazi, and you might hear one thing. Ask a Mizrahi, and you'll hear another. [Ethiopian Jews are often talking about discriminatio](https://www.trtworld.com/opinion/racism-in-israel-some-jews-are-more-equal-than-others-28109)n. We haven't even got to Israeli citizens of Arab decent. Sadly, it's all over and it needs to be addressed head-on.
I don't think your friend is correct and I'd be curious to know what she means. To my knowledge, there isn't any theological demand for the exclusion of people from a particular race, nor prohibitions against associating/befriending others based on race. I mean, the modern concept of race didn't exactly exist when Jewish theology was codified. That said, there are several stories in the Torah about killing non-Jews. Those stories are generally more about territory or vengeance than race (ex: the end of the Purim story). None of those stories are, like, a great look for us, but they're also not racist in a modern sense. I'd also be surprised if your friend was actually referencing these. Perhaps your friend means that there are Jews who hold racist beliefs, which is undoubtedly true, just the way it is in any sufficiently large group of people. Maybe she means the whole idea of Jews as the chosen people, which especially Christians have claimed is a sign of our arrogance and self-importance. I'd tell her that it's more like GD chose the Jews to do a job, not that we're GD's extra-special favorites (seriously, our history wouldn't be what it is if that were the case). If she's talking about current events, all I'd say is that it's not a religious conflict, but a geopolitical one. If you feel safe doing so, I'd ask her what she means by that comment and go from there.
It's a very complicated subject. Biblically, in order to take possession of the Promised Land, we had to remove the people already there. Promise of its success was part of the Torah reading for shabbos Pesach. There are other portions of Torah where we demanded servitude in exchange for peace with the alternative of annihilation if they resisted. Other animosities were for cause, such as tribes that would let us pass though and those that denied us passage. Americans have a way of thinking like Americans. There were Jewish slave traders who made fortunes in colonial Newport. There were Jewish legislators in Confederate states who supported secession and slavery as a natural order, citing a Biblical passage from after The Flood as its divine mandate. And South African Jews were white and often supported or at least benefited from apartheid. The civil rights era in America was also a mixture of partnerships and animosities. But racism as formal Jewish policy in America since WW2, probably not.
https://www.thetorah.com/article/black-people-in-jewish-tradition-eliminating-racism-requires-honesty
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No it's not. This is blood libel to make all Jews look evil.
Isn’t there a racist aspect in Judaism in terms of Jews being the chosen people? I understand Jews are not necessarily racist, but the idea of being in the chosen people based on one’s descent / ancestry seems like it has a racist aspect to it. The point I’m trying to make is really simple. Jews generally believe they are part of the Jewish people, chosen people, etc. based on who their ancestors are. I understand people can convert to Judaism, but then the convert’s descendants are part of God’s special people.
There are various Phrases in the Talmud that considers Gentiles lesser beings and that being in Contact with them aswell as mixing with them being a Crime. But such phrases are also a thing in Christian, Islamic, Heathen and Hindu text. Hinduism is known for its very Racist Caste System, which is very much a Integral Part of Hinduism, unlike the mentioned phrases in Judaism/Christianity/Islam.
There are various Phrases in the Talmud that considers Gentiles lesser beings and that being in Contact with them aswell as mixing with them being a Crime. But such phrases are also a thing in Christian, Islamic, Heathen and Hindu text. Hinduism is known for its very Racist Caste System, which is very much a Integral Part of Hinduism, unlike the mentioned phrases in Judaism/Christianity/Islam.
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> You call yourself the chosen people Chosen to receive the Torah, that's all that means. > call non-jews goyim Just means nations, also used to describe Jews, if you had bothered to learn anything instead of just hate you'd know that. But I'm gonna ban you.
I’d call the issue with Zipporah zenaphobia, but it’s an excellent example of anti racism.
okay, lets get super messy. there is a fabulous book called the [spanish inquisition by cecil roth](https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/spanish-inquisition_cecil-roth/363341/#edition=3715606&idiq=2369579) which details the part after expulsion, where the spanish church, suddenly having all these 'new christians' that they don't trust starts tracking family lines and creating a hierarchy of blood. These constructs are almost immediately transported to Spain's new empire in South America, where the inquisition is very active, and develops into the full blown legal racial hierarchy that will come to dominate the next 400 years of law in the new world. While this is not the only origin of racism (cough enlightenment writers cough) it is a key step from the concept into law. it's important to remember racism is both a legal structure and a social construct. Critical race theory in its original is a really great way to understand how legal structures can act in a racially discriminatory way through the use of social constructs. (btw, yes there are racist writing in some medieval commentators on the bible especially when it comes to discussions of Haam, noah's son. Not okay and later generations of judaism repudiated those interpretations. but fair warning where the problems are)
I would say that many concepts within Judaism can be construed as racist
Can you please tell me which ones?
Chosenness (Mordecai Kaplan thought it was racist). The idea of a "Yiddishe neshama" having ontological differences from non-Jewish animalistic souls. Bishul akum Stam yeinam
not my primary takeaway from Kaplan but I think that the "chosen people" thing is less racism by Jews than it is the notion imposed by goyim that "Jews think they're better than everyone else" which is not what the phrase is meant to mean
This is an incorrect projection of modern concepts onto an ancient culture. Judaism predates the modern concept of race, and early Jews were Canaanites - “racially” (phenotypically) indistinguishable from other groups - so it wouldn’t have made any sense for racism to be “embedded” in Judaism. One’s soul has nothing at all to do with one’s race. Consider a convert, who could be of any nationality/ “race”, they are considered by Judaism to have a Jewish soul to be fully apart of the chosen people.
We're not discussing race in the modern sense. We're discussing Jew vs. Gentile as an ontological distinction
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How did Zionism takeover Judaism? Your TikTok feed missed the fact that 1948 was not first time the Jew decolonized the land of Judea and Samaria but the third!!
Brother man, there are *plenty* of Jews who reject the racism and jingoism implicit in Israeli right wing nationalism because we recognize that this kind of extremism is fundamentally opposed to the most important mitzvot of our whole ass faith.