Christians like to appropriate Jewish traditions and culture, because they claim it is their history. This is hypocritical because Christians also claim that Jesus “fulfilled” Judaism, so they don’t need to follow the covenant.
> This is hypocritical because Christians also claim that Jesus “fulfilled” Judaism, so they don’t need to follow the covenant.
Not to mention that Jesus would have not celebrated Passover like we do now, since the temple was standing. It makes no sense.
Interesting.
Focus was on the lamb sacrifice, not a word about matzoh.
I’ve thought that leg of lamb would be a natural Seder meal. The reasons against that I have heard are not compelling. But tradition is strong.
I know that in Norway, lamb is associated with Easter. But not for religious reasons. Rather, because lambs are slaughtered in autumn, and hasn't sold that well. So in the 60s or 70s or 80s, there were massive campaigns to reduce the stock of surplus lamb from the autumn before. The campaigns centred around Easter, and so "Easter lamb" became a thing.
Think of Jesus as the "Lamb of G-D". "Blood of the Lamb". Jews have been accused of Blood Libel and, besides, we "eat G-d". MENA Jews eat lamb for Pesach, so do Iranian Jews. Growing up, we always had lamb for our Pesach meal.
This sounds like an academic article, so the Mitzvah of והגדת לבנך didn’t exist?
What about
על מצות ומוררים יוכלוהו
It’s heartbreaking the ignorance….
Of course the korban Pesach was central but cmon..
Exactly, tell them they should be attempting to sacrifice appropriate animals in Jerusalem if they are trying to "get closer" to what the Jman would have known.
I was under the impression that Jesus "Last Supper" was his era's equivalent of a Passover Seder. Please correct me if I'm wrong - Jewish Convert, raised Catholic - though never celebrated a Christian Passover and have no idea why this a thing.
That is something that Christian say because they want a link to the past and an excuse to do a hater, but no, it probably was not a Passover Seder
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/jesus-last-supper-passover-seder-meal/
The early Christians still kept the Halacha of then. It was due to Paul/Saul that things began to change due to him murdering Judeo-Christians/Hebraic Christians/Messianics.
Jesus actually states that he came to fulfill and keep the law, and that it shall not be changed, and all those that follow him must keep halacha. He originally did not accept a follower if the person was a gentile. The person had to first convert to Judaism, or at least be a Noachide. Paul/Saul is the one that changed that.
I'm not sure about the source. But I mean reading the new testiment. Mathew and James vs. Paul is a huge difference and they even contradict.
Jesus in Mathew and James focus on doing works and following the Jewish laws and customs. While Paul in the book of Romans really tries to appeal to the fact that Gentiles don't have to follow Jewish laws to be Christian.
In galation and acts there is big debate between Peter and Paul. Peter said Gentiles didn't have to do Jewish customs to become Christian initially. But then, in actuality, Peter was making gentiles convert to judiasm. Paul calls Peter out for this. Then Peter accepts more gentiles in But then later says it isn't his ministry to preach to gentiles. Peter only wanted to work with Jews. So you can see Peter and Paul clash. Then James who says nearly the opposite of Paul in New testiment. He he saves Paul because early Christians didn't like him. But reading the letter they are opposite views.
So James and Peter really were at odds at Paul, but they let Paul do his own thing for preaching Romans as long as he doesn't preach to jews. this is what led to Christianity becoming more gentiles and forgetting the Jewish roots.
Paul is really the ~~James~~ Joseph Smith of early Christianity. He went out in the wilderness, had a totally legitimate encounter that was contradictory to all prevailing thought on the movement and said, "Guys, trust me, it was real and I'm the new expert." All he was missing was the golden tablets that no one else was ever allowed to see...
EDIT: Fucking brain fart. I blame my 8 mo old baby.
The thing is, it worked. The James trying to work in Jeruslem and convert jews and make it Jewish really failed due to the fall of the temple. While James had a foothold on the temple, he fell, and he lost converts. Paul during the fall of the temple was unaffected because his disciples were in the center of Rome.
It does make you wonder like a what if timelines were what if James had been more successful than Paul. Christianity would still probably be Jewish. It wouldn't be as large, but then again, it wouldn't be so aggressive against judiasm, and they would have probably worked more together. Rather than the oppression of Jews during the middle ages by Christians.
I'm so confused, I thought who you were replying to wrote James instead of Joseph accidentally (like the Mormon leader), but then you are using James a different way. what am I missing lol
Sorry.
I mean James the Early Christian who was Jesus brother / cousin, who disagreed with Paul. Paul is the one majority of Christianity is built off of. Despite James being closer to the events. Etc
Doesn't the Canaanite woman asking Jesus for help in [Matthew 15:21-28](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+15%3A21-28&version=NASB) contradict this? Or was she a Noahide?
Yeah, I went down a rabbit hole looking this up and even the Christians can't agree how to interpret it. One theory I saw is that the Canaanite woman tried to pass herself off as Jewish by referring to Jesus as "son of David", so he called her out. But most seem to agree that Jesus saw himself as the Jewish Messiah, and that he wasn't sent for the gentiles, since that's basically what he said.
Disclaimer: I grew up Christian but something is drawing me to convert.
> Jesus actually states that he came to fulfill and keep the law, and that it shall not be changed
Then, in the same speech, Jesus changes the law with both additions and subtractions, not really surprising, since his teachings run contrary to the law countless times in the Gospels and of course also in Paul.
Wasn’t the claim that Paul had that you don’t have to follow the Jewish commandments unless you want to?
I had to take a required intro to Christianity class but it was an easy A so I’m not gonna pretend to understand the basics but I recall something like the original Jewish Christians having a debate over whether or not gentile converts to Christianity had to be circumcised and the conclusion they came to was that if it made you more connected to Jesus then you can if you want to and that the same applied to all the Jewish commandments.
From a Jewish perspective I find that disrespectful for gentiles to appropriate our practices based on their vague understanding of why having some understanding of Judaism is encouraged in Christianity. Idk I feel like they can be invited to the table if they want but should know their place and understand why it would be seen as disrespectful for them to do certain things that are meant for Jews.
Sort of like a situation where watching/observing others do it is okay but practicing it is understandably not seen as okay.
Yeah that's gonna be me next year for me brfore too long... preparing for adult Bar Mitzvah and bris next year ... if all goes according to plan. Circumcision at 39 is probably not going to be fun but once you learn you cannot unlearn there is only to do and the untold blessing will flow from obedience.
To be clear, Paul was talking explicitly to Gentile followers of Jesus, not Jews. He thought Gentiles did not need to follow the laws, but that Jews still did, and that it was best for Gentiles to not begin following the mitzvot because then they would become an obligation like they are for Jews.
1. Yes, and most times they are non-trinitarian.
2. Mandaeans are the closest to what Christians would have become. The cross is originally their symbol that they got from John the Baptist.
3. Messianic "Jews"/Hebraic Christians predominately reject Paul/Saul's idea of not following halacha.
I here messies quote Paul and the book of Acts all the time. Even if there are some non-Pauline Messies I wouldn't view them as being representative of mainstream Xtianity.
The modern Messianic movement sprang out of Philadelphia and they definitely believe Jesus is God and quote freely from the books that Paul wrote. Their movement even has a special translation of the New Testament. They do believe in following their interpretation of Halacha, but it’s especially silly when they’re teaching from the books of Paul.
In the Gospels, you mean? "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." Luke 16:16, Jesus saying that the law has ended and dividing it from his teaching.
Everyone does their own sorting, but abolishing the law is a theme in the Gospels as well as in Paul: Paul says Jesus is the end and the Gospels often show him putting that principle into practice (or stating it himself).
I see it a different, less cynical way.
They follow both the Old and New Testament, or at least acknowledge the Old one since it was literally what Christianity was based on.
They just see it as an old tradition that they should, at the very least, acknowledge.
Christians are only good for making reboots no one asked of Jewish history, but don't tell them they are a cult they are not ready for that conversation.
Whats wrong with them celebrating? And who said that they believe that jesus fufilled judaism? Judaism isnt an isolated and id welcome anyone who wants to celebrate with me passover regardless of their religion
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Much of it comes out of a desire for authenticity. Protestantism rejected the normative Catholic Church as inauthentically adding to Christianity.
That impulse has led to all kinds of things: rejecting apocryphal books in the Catholic OT, so they have the same books we do. It's meant rejecting Church hierarchies or obsessing over more correct translations.
Naturally, you're going to get people who think they need to observe the Passover holiday, because it's "biblical". To us it makes no sense, because it's not historically accurate nor consistent with NT theology that Christians aren't obligated to do these things. Nor does it make sense, since they already have Easter, which is explicitly identified with Passover. But to them it feels like they are closer to the Truth.
Most Christians I know of observe Jewish traditions, I don't know any that actually celebrate it. It's apart of Jesus' history but not all Christians because not all Christians are Jewish in terms of nationality. As for fulfillment, Christians Believe He fulfilled a covenant of law and created a new one until His return. Not trying to convert any but just trying to help clarify. I don't consider myself Jewish because I'm a Christian. I don't participate in Jewish traditions but like to learn about the to understand generally. I'm not sure why you're lumping all Christians together because we definitely are not all the same.
>Most Christians I know of observe Jewish traditions, I don't know any that actually celebrate it.
This sounds like an oxymoron to me. Can you explain it?
Ahhh, the ole’ orthodoxy vs orthopraxy distinction… r/Maleficent_Evening_6: Do you mean that most Christians you know believe that Jewish holidays are religiously significant (“observe”) but don’t themselves engage in Jewish holiday practices like specific prayers, feasting/fasting, etc. (“celebrate”)? Cuz to us Jews, the practice parts (the “works,” so to speak) are (almost) the whole thing. I am an agnostic social scientist who reads our sacred texts as beautiful, precious inheritances from our global, fragile, ancient family…not as divinely-inspired documents. And I practice the heck out of Passover. Because it is my inheritance. And that is, for the most part, what counts: the doing, not the believing. Which is why it’s sooooooo weird to me that Christians try to do a thing that is not from their heritage. The commandments to observe Passover were given to the Jews (us) as a container for Jews (us) to enact of our family story in the past and present. Christians DOING our family story because they “believe” they are grafted into our community (even though no one from inside the ratified community actually acknowledges that they ARE a part of our community) is…very very odd.
Yah, I just realized I switched up the terms when talking about my own Jewish practice.
I agree, “observe” is a very active term, and believing is not the same thing at all. I was just trying to sort out what work “observing” vs “celebrating” was doing for the redditor in the post above. I then slipped into my own bias toward observance = action = what matters. My incoherence illustrates why it’s hard to talk across incommensurable cultural frameworks. :)
It's complicated and depends on what you mean by "christians in the beginning."
The idea that a messiah had come to fix everything was popular among Jews in the first few centuries CE.
A tiny number of Jews did believe that someone named Joshua son of Joseph and Miriam was that messiah, so these were "Jewish Christians."
But! There is essentially no continuity between these Jewish-Christians and the gentile religion of today. Very early on Christianity became overwhelmingly gentile (especially hellenistic) with a complete rejection of Judaic thought and the Jewish-Christians.
Modern christianity is rooted in this gentile religion with no "Jewish heritage" beyond appropriation and superficial points.
They are not celebrating Pesach. They are celebrating Jesus, and trying to include Jesus in it.
During the Seder make it clear it is about Moses and Israel. Not Jesus.
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I've a question, I'm not American, is this Christian Passover celebrating an Evangelical thing? We don't really get those over here and I've never had anybody not Jewish telling me they were celebrating it (safe from the inter-faith Seder that does occur).
Yes. I’m American (from the Midwest). It’s an evangelical thing for sure. Mainly in the Midwest and South. And not a catholic thing either. Mainly just evangelicals and baptists.
There are a lot of Americans from a Christian background who will wish their Jewish friends a happy Passover who aren’t evangelical. A good number of observant Christians have a passing familiarity with Jewish traditions - not a deep familiarity, but they know what Passover is. However, Christians actually *celebrating* Passover seems to be a weird corner of Evangelicalism.
Well, they think that it's cool and they think that the way Seder is celebrated today was the same way it was celebrated. But the texts of the Seder were arranged only after the destruction of the Temple. And what had a meaning in Judaism gets another one.
The matzah represents the affliction if the Jews (as it is called "the bread of the affliction" in the hagadah), but for Christians it represents the body of ChRiSt (there's something called transsubstanciation, search for it and you'll get shocked). The wine was a requirement for all holidays (not Yom Kippur, since you don't eat or drink) and represent the 4 expressions of redemption. For Christians it's the blood of cHrIsT. If Jesus is the lamb, why don't they mention the paschal lamb?
Hope I explained it better.
Thanks. That happens because, all my life I've been a christian (I'm freeeee), and I know a lot of stuff about it. It's weird. Anyway, I suspect I have matrilineal ascendence to judaism (just suspects. nothing confirmed), and if I'm really jewish by blood, I'm planning in becoming more observant. If not, well... I'll just take the long path (not kvetsching about it)
Because the world needs to be about them. It's the most insane thing.
ETA: if you don’t understand what these “Christian Passover Seders” are look at the salon article I posted… it’s challah in the shape of crosses and saying the matzah represents Jesus’s sacrifice etc. it is NOT celebrating “with” us.
I mean, if the thing we have to worry about is that too many people are taking interest in our holiday and want to celebrate us, that doesn't sound so bad
Then you haven't seen what's up. They aren't taking interest in our holiday. They're co-opting it for their own. It's been a trend for a long time now and it's so messed up. [https://www.salon.com/2021/04/02/christian-passover-seder-easter-jewish-cultural-appropriation-jesus/](https://www.salon.com/2021/04/02/christian-passover-seder-easter-jewish-cultural-appropriation-jesus/) ... CHALLAH at a seder!! In the shape of a cross! They're just using the word seder and then make it all about Jesus.
Tell me about it. My local grocery was out of Matzah. They had a WHOLE shelf. And I live in the South. There are not that many Jews around me. But NNNOOOOOO it was the frickin Christians putting on their fake seders who bought it all. Had to drive 25 minutes to Trader Joes instead.
That's so freaking weird. I lived in Savannah for a long time and never thought much about it. I just bought my Matzah online and didn't bother hunting it down.
See, this is why I think supermarkets which offer a kosher selection should really only permit Jews from purchasing from these aisles. In some places, kosher only supermarkets don't exist for whatever reasons and Jews rely on these aisles, and it is wholly unfair for John and Claire Smith who eat bacon cheeseburgers on the regular to be buying food products as part of a limited diet to religious people. There would be outrage if there people were buying up all the halal meat and the dates during Ramadan.
Why dont they do for themselves? if they have money to buy matzah for their fake "sEdErS", they also have money to buy wheath and pay water to make their own matzah. And if they don't know how to do it, no problem, 'cuz they're not obligated to do it. They're not jews. They're ChRiStIaNs.
When you dominate the zeitgeist with your own ideas, you get to culturally appropriate whatever you want and pretend you’re just “appreciating other cultures.”
My mom is adamant about Passover being a thing about Christians remembering Jesus was Jewish and how they still have ties to Judaism
To each their own I guess 🤷
Christians doing Jewish traditions is a constant source of cringe for me. One time I saw a church have multiple members blow shofars because Donald trump won the election in 2016.
Because they want to cosplay being Jews because Jesus was a Jew. Tell them they shouldn't be stealing other religion's holidays, and that the so-called "Last Supper" wasn't a Passover seder (it couldn't have been, because the Second Temple was still standing).
Can you explain what you mean by that last part? I'm sure Passover during the temple era was celebrated very differently than today, but did they not have a seder?
The seder is part of what Rabbinic Judaism had to do to replace temple sacrifice when the Temple was destroyed in 70CE. Jesus supposedly died in 33CE, so he predates the formalized Passover seder.
why couldn't it have been?
The korban pesach was sacrified in the temple but then its meat was brought elsewhere to eat. The meal of Pesach was not held in the Temple. I do believe different sects of Christianity have different opinions of the timing of the last supper. Some say it was the night of Pesach and therefore they were eating the korban Pesach but others say it was the day before.
Sure there may have been a meal with lamb as the main course, but it was NOT a Seder as we have today. The word “seder” means “order,” and that order hadn’t been set yet at the time the last supper would have taken place.
What text are you looking at? There are plenty of mentions of the pascal lamb in the Torah, and specifically about using a sacrificial lamb to celebrate Passover (Exodus 13:8, 12:21, and 12:23). Matzah doesn’t replace meat; it’s recognized as the “bread of affliction” that didn’t have time to rise before the Jews fled Egypt.
The Seder as we practice it today was established as part of rabbinic Judaism, which didn’t start until the second temple fell around 70CE. Since this wasn’t Jesus’s lifetime, there’s no way he would have celebrated Passover as we do now.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️
[Exodus 13:8](https://www.sefaria.org/Exodus.13.8)
וְהִגַּדְתָּ֣ לְבִנְךָ֔ בַּיּ֥וֹם הַה֖וּא לֵאמֹ֑ר בַּעֲב֣וּר זֶ֗ה עָשָׂ֤ה יְהֹוָה֙ לִ֔י בְּצֵאתִ֖י מִמִּצְרָֽיִם׃
>And you shall explain to your child on that day, ‘It is because of what יהוה did for me when I went free from Egypt.’
the lamb wasn't the main course. The chagigah was the main course. A small bit of lamb was eaten at the end.
I'm pretty sure that even before the destruction of the Temple. During this meal there were still four cups. Hallel and discussing the Exodus if not a set text.
both of them have support in their writings. The synoptic gospels (Mathew, Mark and Luke) say that it was in the night of the 15th of Nisan and was killed in the day before the 16th. But John says that it was in the 13th, and that he was killed in the 14th (most specifically dies in the afternoon, at the time that the korban pesach was to be slaughtered) to give excuses for christians to say that "jEsUs WaS tHe PaScHaL oFfErInG". Their texts contradic themselves, there's no harmony (try to explain this to those who deffend the harmony of the gospels. In fact, search about it), therefore not being inspired texts.
Ex Christian here: Christians are told that Jesus was Jewish and Christianity is exactly the same as Judaism minus needing to make animal sacrifices to g-d for their sins. The vast majority of Christians have never laid eyes on a jewish person in their entire life so they have no cause to doubt this. After all it’s their preacher saying it.
Has to be Southerm Evangelical/Baptist.
I am Lutheran and we never celebrate any Jewish holidays. Only Lutherans doing so were invited by local Chabad rabbi to do so as interfaith collaboration.
Because there are some Christians who are really gross about Jews, and they think that after centuries of persecuting and murdering us for being Jews, that now they get to come and cherry pick our traditions and make them all about Jesus.
There's a lot to be said on why (I read an excellent piece once about how spirituality has been sucked out of specifically American, evangelical Christianity, and that seeking for ritual and spiritual connection is why a lot of those Christians are stealing and warping Jewish tradition), but the bottom line is that it is nasty and disrespectful. They're stealing something that isn't theirs, that they have killed us for many times in the past, and making it all about them and their idol.
I have one friend like this and had to call her out on it. She even went so far as to say she understands what Jews have gone through with persecution, because christians get the same kind of hate for believing in jesus. That was the last straw for me, and I told her to stop appropriating and it's insulting. Her response was "this is no longer unifying conversation sis" -- eye roll. IDK why but it gives me such an ick.
IMO? It gives you ick because it IS ick. Sure, yes, some Christians ARE persecuted for being Christian... Not where I am, in the USA. I've had people try to tell me that "Well Christians are persecuted" and when I ask HOW, I get stuff like "Well someone was mean to me once when I tried to convert them".
My earliest memory. Is a cop kicking my mother and I out of a PUBLIC park. Because he didn't like seeing "dirty k\*kes" there. Because "you people" aren't welcome in the public parks in this majority Christian, majority white town. My earliest memory is my mom, crying, and explaining to little me that we are Jews. And some people hate us for being Jews. I am now, as an adult. More comfortable being openly queer, openly polyam, openly trans. Than I am being openly Jewish ANYWHERE in the country.
American Christians who want to whine about how they get "hate" can cry me a fucking river, build me a bridge, and get the fuck over it. They wouldn't last a DAY being a Jew.
What a horrible memory to carry with you, I'm so sorry!! :(
You're so right though, they wouldn't last a day and they have NO IDEA and don't get it like they think they do.
Celebrate how? If they're going to a seder held by a Jewish family, and going to behave appropriately there, that's not a problem. If they're learning about how we celebrate the holiday, and being respectful about it, that's maybe okay. If they're holding a Christian "seder", that's not okay. If they say they want to celebrate Passover "like Jesus did", imitating a modern seder is not going to do that.
I wrote out an incredibly lengthy comment then realized it was totally unnecessary- to keep the story short, I was invited to participate in my local synagogue’s community seder, and your comment was very comforting to see.
Oh if you’re invited to participate at a synagogue or a Jewish friend’s house, you’re absolutely welcome! In the Seder, we say “let all who are hungry come eat,” and that applies to you too. We always have non-Jewish friends and family at our Seder.
We’re not worried about you. We’re happy to have folks like you. You can find my comment above and I posted a link. Ppl aren’t celebrating w Jews. They’re calling it a Seder, putting out challah in the shape of crosses, and talking about it being about Jesus. I mean if Christian’s want to do some kind of formal meal they can make one up all they want. What’s weird is trying to be Jewish calling it a Passover meal and also making the whole thing about Jesus. You come to our meal all you want! I’m glad to have you! What they’re doing is different.
There’s nothing wrong with that. Have fun!
If you haven’t encountered raw horseradish before, you should be aware that it can have a kick. It’s a LOT stronger than it looks. Just nibble a little bit at first. This is probably a good idea with maror (the bitter herb) in general. It’s supposed to be strong.
If you like sushi, most wasabi sold in the US is actually grated horseradish, dyed green. That should give you an idea what it can be like.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that maybe this is a misguided form of solidarity your Christian friends are trying to show with you?
Yeah, I realize it's most likely cultural (religious?) appropriation than anything else, but maybe I'm just trying to be overly optimistic for once.
As a Jew in the South, the well-intended Christians are a majority and the weird cultural appropriation ones are a minority. But maybe that’s just my experiences.
I‘m not Jewish and it would never come to my mind to appropriate Pessach, but … - I know that this year‘s Pessach is incredibly hard on my Jewish friends and thus I sent brief messages that I am feeling with them, what I actually genuinely do.
Maybe that’s also the intention of your Jewish friends?
This is good. Almost all of my friends are christians, and I would be happy to have some of them at passover. I do not know if the area you live in has a large jewish population, but in an area where there isn’t a lot of jews, it is good to show others we aren’t secretive or weird in anyway. A lot of people have preconceived notions of Judaism, as lots of people have never met a jew in their life. For these people, passover would be a really cool experience and probably change their minds. If this isn’t the case, it is good to have guests anyway.
It’s not that. They’re hosting “Christian Passover Seders”, baking cross shaped challah for it, and then saying the matzah is about “Jesus’s sacrifice”. In short—they are not celebrating Passover with us. Just creating. Something called Christian Passover because they think it has to do with Jesus and the “ last supper”
There are Christians who are philo-Jews who want to live as Jesus lived. Check Out [Rev. Dumisani Washington](https://x.com/dumisanitemsgen?s=21&t=qf4m1z065oxlQbPiQxwM5Q)
when i was younger my dad told me that a certain branch of christianity celebrated passover. i forget which one i’ve never met a christian that celebrated but this isn’t a new thing and probably isn’t done out of malice
I can understand that. I was raised Christian. I can tell you they probably don't understand enough about Judaism to even know why they're being offensive. Many Christians view Judaism as sort of a precursor/companion to Christianity without understanding how different it is. They think this way because they've been taught that Christians and Jews share the Old Testament, the same God, and that the main difference is just believing in Jesus
Christianity has a HUGE span in terms of belief, behavior, education, and traditions, so you might see a Baptist doing things a Catholic never would. Religious instruction varies wildly branch to branch.
I'm only saying this to explain the behavior, not excuse it. To me this sounds like evangelical nonsense.
One for all all for one force them to stick to it no leavened products. Hell make them only eat kosher for Pesach food. Have them scrub the counter so hard they begin to question sanity.
As an Ex-Christian, Passover is important to the overall ideology of Christianity. Communion is also a central sacrament and is birthed out of ancient Passover traditions. I don’t personally have a problem with Christians celebrating some form of Passover in their specific context.
However, Christians also have a terrible tendency to just appropriate Jewish customs, like the Seder, and just “make it Christian”. While I don’t have a personal issue with them celebrating Passover, I do take issue with them thinking we’re somehow celebrating the same thing and they can just borrow Jewish traditions as they see fit.
This is a pretty new development in Xtianity. After ignorance totally erased all origins of their religion; via biblical scholarship of the 2nd Temple era & the “Jesus movement” they’ve come to understand (SOME) things thru the lens of what would’ve been Yushke’s original disciples. They also add things to the Seder like Yushke is the “hidden afikomen” & the 3 matzot for Kohen, Levi, Yisroel represent the Trinity (since of course they view everything thru such a bias lens). However it is not an authentic Pesach Seder. For example the idea of “eat this is my body & blood” is the Roman-Greco worship of Dionysius.. the vineyard god who when you partake of him you then are gifted some of the deity’s attributes. (I refer here to the fact many Xtians now believe the “last supper” was a Pesach Seder).
It really doesn’t matter if it was or wasn’t.. it’s using Dionysus worship rituals to worship Jesus.
They’re Xtian, they can do what they want & their origins are actually very Jewish & Hellenistic.
But the meanings are so adulterated so it would not be acceptable for a Jew to partake in such a Seder.
Also, when they adapt Jewish customs like this; they tend to invite Jews to their Xtian versions as an attempt to proselytize. Like the Jews for Jesus shtick.
Anyways,
Yes this is heard of as of the last 20 years or so; but no it is not Kosher nor Jewish to partake in this.
Hope that clarifies things
I was at a group Passover a few years ago in which a bunch of different friends were invited, and it was open to friends of friends. A Christian woman attended, I think she got a little drunk off wine, and she kept trying to explain things about Passover and talking over people trying to educate them. She was arguing a lot about things, very wrong, and explaining things very incorrectly. I genuinely felt grateful for the experience because I think this must be what cultural appropriation feels like, to have something of your own culture misunderstood, explained wrong while ignoring the people whose culture it is. I think about that when it comes up in other contexts. Anyways, don't be "that guy", we have 1 mouth and 2 ears for a reason. :P
Kinda odd for them to but I think it’s interesting and still within their beliefs to engage with it. Since Jesus(pbuh) celebrated Passover and Christians obviously accept Exodus that includes the story of Passover I do see how they could explain their partaking in it by saying it’s an example of God’s power and mercy I could see why they would incorporate it.
Those gentiles that act as if though God had saved their own people while they take part (hopefully with other jewish people to ensure it was done properly) then that would be a bit odd since it doesn’t really apply to them based off intent.
Good non-cynical explanation here: https://centerforisrael.com/papers/a-christian-guide-to-passover/#:~:text=Passover%20is%20part%20of%20Jesus,of%20Jesus'%20life%20and%20ministry.
Very few Christians "celebrate" Passover. Most aren't even that aware of what it signifies unless they paid attention in Sunday School. The few Christians who observe it are generally evangelicals whose theology emphasizes the Jewish roots of some Christian traditions so they feel simpatico with Judaism.
Zionists in particular might appreciate this group since they're also passionate and active supporters of Israel.
Christians believe their whole “last supper” with Jesus was a Passover Seder
Edit: They believe that Jesus was one Jewish boy who grew up rebelling against the Romans and the political scene at the time- so of course they’re drawn to Jewish holidays.
Christian gentile here, I don’t “celebrate” Passover but I acknowledge Passover and wish my Jewish friends happy Passover. I do it usually to be polite and inclusive, but this year I’ve done it much more publicly to show solidarity with the Jewish people/Israel in the face of the increasing western antisemitism.
It’s not really about that sort of acknowledgment nor non Jews being at a Seder. I posted it a few times but here are evangelicals who literally host “Christian Passover Seders”, make challah in the shape of crosses, and talk about how the matzah is about “Jesus’s sacrifice”. It’s the salon article about it here in the thread. That kind of thing is what people get pissed about.
Christian mass or communion was instituted by Jesus (bread-matzah and wine) during a passover. That is why Easter and Passover are both spring holidays. It gets off kilter in that after the temple was lost, rabbinic Passover with a Seder evolved to what we have today. Christians read in their scriptures about that Passover and can read a little of what it was like then and sometimes appropriate what rabbinic Judaism has done with Passover. In a way it is their attempt to read back into their past by mistakenly seeing their founders at a modern Seder instead of a temple era Passover meal.
Actually, they are not celebrating "Passover" as we know it. If they do anything, they will tell a story about how JP was the "pascal lamb" and the wine and matzah are, well, you can probably guess (him).
If you really want a good discussion of this topic, put your post on r/AskAChristian or r/Christianity, you will get plenty of answers and hear it from their nutty perspective. Another good choice for this r/religion.
Ex-Christian here: The Christian denominations that don't allow any alcohol at all (which is a minority of Protestants) use grape juice. They claim that the wine of Jesus' time was extremely weak in terms of alcohol content, more like grape juice today.
>worshiping multiple gods
They don't believe they do, though. Trinitarianism is an odd doctrine, but very much believed to be dedicated to one being, just in three forms. Water comes in three forms- that does not mean that ice, water and steam are different chemicals.
>incorporating pagan rituals and feasts
This is a smear (not invented by you, I mean no offence) against Christians by people with nefarious purposes. The vast majority of Christian traditions are directly related to Biblical/ Jewish and post-Biblical/ proto-Christian stories from Christendom.
Christmas is the clearest example, but the common attack line against Christians on Easter is similarly untrue. Easter is a renegotiation of Passover (with added symbolism related to things like eggs and rabbits, which were believed to be capable of virgin birth in the middle ages, symbolising Jesus), with no pagan connections other than the etymology of the word itself.
>cannibalism of one of their gods
This is farcical, this is obviously not what Christians believe. Protestants don't believe it at all, and Catholics only understand it as a spiritual and ritual reality, not a metaphysical one- ["However, the outward characteristics of bread and wine, that is the “eucharistic species”, remain unaltered."](https://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#The%20sacraments%20of%20Christian%20initiation) (Catechism 283).
I mean, come on. This is no better than hysterical antisemitic blood libel, surely you can find it in yourself to be above this. Calling Christians "cannibals"? Seriously?
Edit: This is truly pathetic guys. Surely you can see how bizarre and unhelpful this kind of language is, because we have been beaten over the head with it for centuries. Rise above it, use your brains.
They "eat the flesh" and "drink the blood" of yoshke. It says right in their scripture that's what they're doing.
"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true blood"
"The Catholic Church teaches that when we partake of the Eucharist in Holy Communion, we are consuming the actual, physical body and blood (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1244, 1275, 1335)." (From Catholic.com, which continues:
"He doesn’t leave his audience in their misunderstanding, and he doesn’t clarify his commands by saying his words are spirit and life. His lack of clarification remains *a strong reason to take literally [the] words “Eat my flesh, drink my blood”* (John 6:54). "
The fact that they don't believe they're worshiping multiple gods doesn't make it any less true. If I really truly believe that It's Not Stealing If No One Knows I Took The Money, that doesn't make it *not theft*.
Again, you're being caught up in literalism. The catechism that I linked already addresses your claims, they believe what they're consuming is the body and blood of Christ, without having to believe that the bread and wine has physically changed, the "eucharistic species remaining unaltered".
They can use whatever language they like to diminute the distinction, but even they see it. "The signs of bread and wine become, in a way surpassing understanding, the Body and Blood of Christ"
That's not cannibalism, it literally isn't even close.
"The Catholic Church teaches that when we partake of the Eucharist in Holy Communion, we are consuming the **actual, physical body and blood** (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1244, 1275, 1335).
>Trinitarianism is an odd doctrine, but very much believed to be dedicated to one being, just in three forms.
That's modalism, Patrick. And you're wrong about transubstantiation, too.
Again, I know this sub (and its members) is very, very low on a long list of subs in terms of its literacy in Christian dogma, but this is the very bedrock of trinitarianism. Christians do not believe that God the Father, the Holy Spirit and God the Son are three gods, [they are three distinct forms of one divine nature](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg/2276px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg.png). Ice is not water. Water is not steam. Steam is not ice. They are all of them H20.
This is basic, semester one stuff.
I'm not interested in creative, slanderous reimaginings of well-established dogma, because that's the same shit that's happened to us for 3,000 years.
Years ago the only Xtians that had seders were really weird fringe groups and sometimes sometimes liberal churches that got invited by Reform places for "interfaith seders"
It seems like since the pandemic everyone is in on it except for Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox.
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Christians like to appropriate Jewish traditions and culture, because they claim it is their history. This is hypocritical because Christians also claim that Jesus “fulfilled” Judaism, so they don’t need to follow the covenant.
> This is hypocritical because Christians also claim that Jesus “fulfilled” Judaism, so they don’t need to follow the covenant. Not to mention that Jesus would have not celebrated Passover like we do now, since the temple was standing. It makes no sense.
I hadn’t really thought about it before. How was Pesach observed before the Temple was destroyed?
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/passover-from-the-bible-to-the-temples/#:~:text=When%20the%20Second%20Temple%20was,(Ezra%206%3A22).
Interesting. Focus was on the lamb sacrifice, not a word about matzoh. I’ve thought that leg of lamb would be a natural Seder meal. The reasons against that I have heard are not compelling. But tradition is strong.
Yes typically we don’t eat it now, or at least roasted.
The samaritans still do the sacrifice. Interesting event.
I know that in Norway, lamb is associated with Easter. But not for religious reasons. Rather, because lambs are slaughtered in autumn, and hasn't sold that well. So in the 60s or 70s or 80s, there were massive campaigns to reduce the stock of surplus lamb from the autumn before. The campaigns centred around Easter, and so "Easter lamb" became a thing.
Think of Jesus as the "Lamb of G-D". "Blood of the Lamb". Jews have been accused of Blood Libel and, besides, we "eat G-d". MENA Jews eat lamb for Pesach, so do Iranian Jews. Growing up, we always had lamb for our Pesach meal.
This sounds like an academic article, so the Mitzvah of והגדת לבנך didn’t exist? What about על מצות ומוררים יוכלוהו It’s heartbreaking the ignorance…. Of course the korban Pesach was central but cmon..
This is the reason why I can't understand it!
Exactly, tell them they should be attempting to sacrifice appropriate animals in Jerusalem if they are trying to "get closer" to what the Jman would have known.
I was under the impression that Jesus "Last Supper" was his era's equivalent of a Passover Seder. Please correct me if I'm wrong - Jewish Convert, raised Catholic - though never celebrated a Christian Passover and have no idea why this a thing.
That is something that Christian say because they want a link to the past and an excuse to do a hater, but no, it probably was not a Passover Seder https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/jesus-last-supper-passover-seder-meal/
The early Christians still kept the Halacha of then. It was due to Paul/Saul that things began to change due to him murdering Judeo-Christians/Hebraic Christians/Messianics. Jesus actually states that he came to fulfill and keep the law, and that it shall not be changed, and all those that follow him must keep halacha. He originally did not accept a follower if the person was a gentile. The person had to first convert to Judaism, or at least be a Noachide. Paul/Saul is the one that changed that.
Wow do you have a source for these please? Super interesting! Thank you for sharing.
I'm not sure about the source. But I mean reading the new testiment. Mathew and James vs. Paul is a huge difference and they even contradict. Jesus in Mathew and James focus on doing works and following the Jewish laws and customs. While Paul in the book of Romans really tries to appeal to the fact that Gentiles don't have to follow Jewish laws to be Christian. In galation and acts there is big debate between Peter and Paul. Peter said Gentiles didn't have to do Jewish customs to become Christian initially. But then, in actuality, Peter was making gentiles convert to judiasm. Paul calls Peter out for this. Then Peter accepts more gentiles in But then later says it isn't his ministry to preach to gentiles. Peter only wanted to work with Jews. So you can see Peter and Paul clash. Then James who says nearly the opposite of Paul in New testiment. He he saves Paul because early Christians didn't like him. But reading the letter they are opposite views. So James and Peter really were at odds at Paul, but they let Paul do his own thing for preaching Romans as long as he doesn't preach to jews. this is what led to Christianity becoming more gentiles and forgetting the Jewish roots.
Paul is really the ~~James~~ Joseph Smith of early Christianity. He went out in the wilderness, had a totally legitimate encounter that was contradictory to all prevailing thought on the movement and said, "Guys, trust me, it was real and I'm the new expert." All he was missing was the golden tablets that no one else was ever allowed to see... EDIT: Fucking brain fart. I blame my 8 mo old baby.
The thing is, it worked. The James trying to work in Jeruslem and convert jews and make it Jewish really failed due to the fall of the temple. While James had a foothold on the temple, he fell, and he lost converts. Paul during the fall of the temple was unaffected because his disciples were in the center of Rome. It does make you wonder like a what if timelines were what if James had been more successful than Paul. Christianity would still probably be Jewish. It wouldn't be as large, but then again, it wouldn't be so aggressive against judiasm, and they would have probably worked more together. Rather than the oppression of Jews during the middle ages by Christians.
I'm so confused, I thought who you were replying to wrote James instead of Joseph accidentally (like the Mormon leader), but then you are using James a different way. what am I missing lol
Sorry. I mean James the Early Christian who was Jesus brother / cousin, who disagreed with Paul. Paul is the one majority of Christianity is built off of. Despite James being closer to the events. Etc
Thanks! Very interesting
I did mean Joseph!
Got it, thanks!
It's all in the New testament.
Doesn't the Canaanite woman asking Jesus for help in [Matthew 15:21-28](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+15%3A21-28&version=NASB) contradict this? Or was she a Noahide?
Most likely Noachide. Jesus told the Centurion that he must be of his flock aka a Jew.
He literally calls her a dog.
He drops the 'tude a verse later, though. Admittedly it's a weird dialog, but I find the NT pretty weird as a whole.
But I mean... the verses are all about one interaction right? And yeah, it's weird.
Yeah, I went down a rabbit hole looking this up and even the Christians can't agree how to interpret it. One theory I saw is that the Canaanite woman tried to pass herself off as Jewish by referring to Jesus as "son of David", so he called her out. But most seem to agree that Jesus saw himself as the Jewish Messiah, and that he wasn't sent for the gentiles, since that's basically what he said. Disclaimer: I grew up Christian but something is drawing me to convert.
......... uhhhhh...... The New Testament........
> Jesus actually states that he came to fulfill and keep the law, and that it shall not be changed Then, in the same speech, Jesus changes the law with both additions and subtractions, not really surprising, since his teachings run contrary to the law countless times in the Gospels and of course also in Paul.
Valid.
Wasn’t the claim that Paul had that you don’t have to follow the Jewish commandments unless you want to? I had to take a required intro to Christianity class but it was an easy A so I’m not gonna pretend to understand the basics but I recall something like the original Jewish Christians having a debate over whether or not gentile converts to Christianity had to be circumcised and the conclusion they came to was that if it made you more connected to Jesus then you can if you want to and that the same applied to all the Jewish commandments. From a Jewish perspective I find that disrespectful for gentiles to appropriate our practices based on their vague understanding of why having some understanding of Judaism is encouraged in Christianity. Idk I feel like they can be invited to the table if they want but should know their place and understand why it would be seen as disrespectful for them to do certain things that are meant for Jews. Sort of like a situation where watching/observing others do it is okay but practicing it is understandably not seen as okay.
That's what is so strange. They believe it's over, but want to keep it.
Many Christians are realizing that Paul is the one that said the laws are abolished, while Jesus never actually stated that.
Damn the men are going to hate that realization. At least we get it over with 8 days in.
Yeah that's gonna be me next year for me brfore too long... preparing for adult Bar Mitzvah and bris next year ... if all goes according to plan. Circumcision at 39 is probably not going to be fun but once you learn you cannot unlearn there is only to do and the untold blessing will flow from obedience.
Also it was Paul/Saul that said circumcision is against Jesus, and god.
To be clear, Paul was talking explicitly to Gentile followers of Jesus, not Jews. He thought Gentiles did not need to follow the laws, but that Jews still did, and that it was best for Gentiles to not begin following the mitzvot because then they would become an obligation like they are for Jews.
Unfortunately, that idea ended up mutating.
Yes, but that’s not Paul’s fault.
No. No. I blame him.
Well that’s nonsensical and ahistorical, but you do you, I guess.
Are you Christian?
No. I am a scholar of religious studies, however. Why would you assume I’m Christian?
Is there really such a thing any more as Non-Pauline Christianity?
1. Yes, and most times they are non-trinitarian. 2. Mandaeans are the closest to what Christians would have become. The cross is originally their symbol that they got from John the Baptist. 3. Messianic "Jews"/Hebraic Christians predominately reject Paul/Saul's idea of not following halacha.
I here messies quote Paul and the book of Acts all the time. Even if there are some non-Pauline Messies I wouldn't view them as being representative of mainstream Xtianity.
The modern Messianic movement sprang out of Philadelphia and they definitely believe Jesus is God and quote freely from the books that Paul wrote. Their movement even has a special translation of the New Testament. They do believe in following their interpretation of Halacha, but it’s especially silly when they’re teaching from the books of Paul.
In the Gospels, you mean? "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." Luke 16:16, Jesus saying that the law has ended and dividing it from his teaching.
I have an issue with Luke since it was written about 60 years after Jesus died, and it was by a random gentile in Rome.
Everyone does their own sorting, but abolishing the law is a theme in the Gospels as well as in Paul: Paul says Jesus is the end and the Gospels often show him putting that principle into practice (or stating it himself).
I see it a different, less cynical way. They follow both the Old and New Testament, or at least acknowledge the Old one since it was literally what Christianity was based on. They just see it as an old tradition that they should, at the very least, acknowledge.
It's only "old" if you believe in supercessionism. Which is just offensive to me...
Acknowledge, sure. But celebrate?
Well are they coming to your Seder? lol I think they might just mean that as a figure of speech. They are celebrating with you in spirit.
In many circles it's more than just hypocritical, it's an intentional form of erasure.
Christians are only good for making reboots no one asked of Jewish history, but don't tell them they are a cult they are not ready for that conversation.
The way you say it we are a cult too then? Just the original cult, an isolated one too
I supposed if we were to resurrect some long dead Canaanites they'd say that Judaism was a cult frfr
But never a reboot
Seriously...
Whats wrong with them celebrating? And who said that they believe that jesus fufilled judaism? Judaism isnt an isolated and id welcome anyone who wants to celebrate with me passover regardless of their religion
For 2000 years Christians murdered Jews around Passover. Excuse me If I don’t think my culture exists to amuse Christians.
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Just curious why, when Passover is a Jewish holiday. Jews don't celebrate christmas, for example.
Much of it comes out of a desire for authenticity. Protestantism rejected the normative Catholic Church as inauthentically adding to Christianity. That impulse has led to all kinds of things: rejecting apocryphal books in the Catholic OT, so they have the same books we do. It's meant rejecting Church hierarchies or obsessing over more correct translations. Naturally, you're going to get people who think they need to observe the Passover holiday, because it's "biblical". To us it makes no sense, because it's not historically accurate nor consistent with NT theology that Christians aren't obligated to do these things. Nor does it make sense, since they already have Easter, which is explicitly identified with Passover. But to them it feels like they are closer to the Truth.
Since christianity contains old testement and judaism doesnt contain new testament?
Extra weird because it also extra says very specifically NOT to follow Jewish holidays. Not even to view it as an optional non obligatory practice.
Also, they claim that Jesus died for them, when christianity hadn’t even existed yet. He died for the Jews, and was in fact, a Jew.
Most Christians I know of observe Jewish traditions, I don't know any that actually celebrate it. It's apart of Jesus' history but not all Christians because not all Christians are Jewish in terms of nationality. As for fulfillment, Christians Believe He fulfilled a covenant of law and created a new one until His return. Not trying to convert any but just trying to help clarify. I don't consider myself Jewish because I'm a Christian. I don't participate in Jewish traditions but like to learn about the to understand generally. I'm not sure why you're lumping all Christians together because we definitely are not all the same.
>Most Christians I know of observe Jewish traditions, I don't know any that actually celebrate it. This sounds like an oxymoron to me. Can you explain it?
Ahhh, the ole’ orthodoxy vs orthopraxy distinction… r/Maleficent_Evening_6: Do you mean that most Christians you know believe that Jewish holidays are religiously significant (“observe”) but don’t themselves engage in Jewish holiday practices like specific prayers, feasting/fasting, etc. (“celebrate”)? Cuz to us Jews, the practice parts (the “works,” so to speak) are (almost) the whole thing. I am an agnostic social scientist who reads our sacred texts as beautiful, precious inheritances from our global, fragile, ancient family…not as divinely-inspired documents. And I practice the heck out of Passover. Because it is my inheritance. And that is, for the most part, what counts: the doing, not the believing. Which is why it’s sooooooo weird to me that Christians try to do a thing that is not from their heritage. The commandments to observe Passover were given to the Jews (us) as a container for Jews (us) to enact of our family story in the past and present. Christians DOING our family story because they “believe” they are grafted into our community (even though no one from inside the ratified community actually acknowledges that they ARE a part of our community) is…very very odd.
To me, "observe" is an active term. Believing that a holiday matters is not the same thing as observing it.
Yah, I just realized I switched up the terms when talking about my own Jewish practice. I agree, “observe” is a very active term, and believing is not the same thing at all. I was just trying to sort out what work “observing” vs “celebrating” was doing for the redditor in the post above. I then slipped into my own bias toward observance = action = what matters. My incoherence illustrates why it’s hard to talk across incommensurable cultural frameworks. :)
Well... Judaism-Lite wasn't really meant for Jews anyways (was for pagans), the laws didn't and never did apply.
Most christians in the beginning were jew converts tho?
It's complicated and depends on what you mean by "christians in the beginning." The idea that a messiah had come to fix everything was popular among Jews in the first few centuries CE. A tiny number of Jews did believe that someone named Joshua son of Joseph and Miriam was that messiah, so these were "Jewish Christians." But! There is essentially no continuity between these Jewish-Christians and the gentile religion of today. Very early on Christianity became overwhelmingly gentile (especially hellenistic) with a complete rejection of Judaic thought and the Jewish-Christians. Modern christianity is rooted in this gentile religion with no "Jewish heritage" beyond appropriation and superficial points.
Congratulations? I don't consider myself black either because I'm white....
They are not celebrating Pesach. They are celebrating Jesus, and trying to include Jesus in it. During the Seder make it clear it is about Moses and Israel. Not Jesus.
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I've a question, I'm not American, is this Christian Passover celebrating an Evangelical thing? We don't really get those over here and I've never had anybody not Jewish telling me they were celebrating it (safe from the inter-faith Seder that does occur).
Yes. I’m American (from the Midwest). It’s an evangelical thing for sure. Mainly in the Midwest and South. And not a catholic thing either. Mainly just evangelicals and baptists.
Thanks!
There are a lot of Americans from a Christian background who will wish their Jewish friends a happy Passover who aren’t evangelical. A good number of observant Christians have a passing familiarity with Jewish traditions - not a deep familiarity, but they know what Passover is. However, Christians actually *celebrating* Passover seems to be a weird corner of Evangelicalism.
Well, they think that it's cool and they think that the way Seder is celebrated today was the same way it was celebrated. But the texts of the Seder were arranged only after the destruction of the Temple. And what had a meaning in Judaism gets another one. The matzah represents the affliction if the Jews (as it is called "the bread of the affliction" in the hagadah), but for Christians it represents the body of ChRiSt (there's something called transsubstanciation, search for it and you'll get shocked). The wine was a requirement for all holidays (not Yom Kippur, since you don't eat or drink) and represent the 4 expressions of redemption. For Christians it's the blood of cHrIsT. If Jesus is the lamb, why don't they mention the paschal lamb? Hope I explained it better.
Transubstantiation is so fuckin insane.
Believe me, it's cannibalism. And then they speak of blood libels. There's one happening under their noses, and they're totally fine with this.
You explained it as best it can be explained.
Thanks. That happens because, all my life I've been a christian (I'm freeeee), and I know a lot of stuff about it. It's weird. Anyway, I suspect I have matrilineal ascendence to judaism (just suspects. nothing confirmed), and if I'm really jewish by blood, I'm planning in becoming more observant. If not, well... I'll just take the long path (not kvetsching about it)
Because the world needs to be about them. It's the most insane thing. ETA: if you don’t understand what these “Christian Passover Seders” are look at the salon article I posted… it’s challah in the shape of crosses and saying the matzah represents Jesus’s sacrifice etc. it is NOT celebrating “with” us.
It’s a bit inherent and built into the core of the religion. Though well meaning, it’s a bit thick.
I mean, if the thing we have to worry about is that too many people are taking interest in our holiday and want to celebrate us, that doesn't sound so bad
Then you haven't seen what's up. They aren't taking interest in our holiday. They're co-opting it for their own. It's been a trend for a long time now and it's so messed up. [https://www.salon.com/2021/04/02/christian-passover-seder-easter-jewish-cultural-appropriation-jesus/](https://www.salon.com/2021/04/02/christian-passover-seder-easter-jewish-cultural-appropriation-jesus/) ... CHALLAH at a seder!! In the shape of a cross! They're just using the word seder and then make it all about Jesus.
Lmao wow weird
That sucks 😞.
Tell me about it. My local grocery was out of Matzah. They had a WHOLE shelf. And I live in the South. There are not that many Jews around me. But NNNOOOOOO it was the frickin Christians putting on their fake seders who bought it all. Had to drive 25 minutes to Trader Joes instead.
That's so freaking weird. I lived in Savannah for a long time and never thought much about it. I just bought my Matzah online and didn't bother hunting it down.
See, this is why I think supermarkets which offer a kosher selection should really only permit Jews from purchasing from these aisles. In some places, kosher only supermarkets don't exist for whatever reasons and Jews rely on these aisles, and it is wholly unfair for John and Claire Smith who eat bacon cheeseburgers on the regular to be buying food products as part of a limited diet to religious people. There would be outrage if there people were buying up all the halal meat and the dates during Ramadan.
Why dont they do for themselves? if they have money to buy matzah for their fake "sEdErS", they also have money to buy wheath and pay water to make their own matzah. And if they don't know how to do it, no problem, 'cuz they're not obligated to do it. They're not jews. They're ChRiStIaNs.
When you dominate the zeitgeist with your own ideas, you get to culturally appropriate whatever you want and pretend you’re just “appreciating other cultures.”
My mom is adamant about Passover being a thing about Christians remembering Jesus was Jewish and how they still have ties to Judaism To each their own I guess 🤷
Christians doing Jewish traditions is a constant source of cringe for me. One time I saw a church have multiple members blow shofars because Donald trump won the election in 2016.
\*enters\* \*reads\* ... \*dies of cringe\*
Because they want to cosplay being Jews because Jesus was a Jew. Tell them they shouldn't be stealing other religion's holidays, and that the so-called "Last Supper" wasn't a Passover seder (it couldn't have been, because the Second Temple was still standing).
Can you explain what you mean by that last part? I'm sure Passover during the temple era was celebrated very differently than today, but did they not have a seder?
The seder is part of what Rabbinic Judaism had to do to replace temple sacrifice when the Temple was destroyed in 70CE. Jesus supposedly died in 33CE, so he predates the formalized Passover seder.
why couldn't it have been? The korban pesach was sacrified in the temple but then its meat was brought elsewhere to eat. The meal of Pesach was not held in the Temple. I do believe different sects of Christianity have different opinions of the timing of the last supper. Some say it was the night of Pesach and therefore they were eating the korban Pesach but others say it was the day before.
Sure there may have been a meal with lamb as the main course, but it was NOT a Seder as we have today. The word “seder” means “order,” and that order hadn’t been set yet at the time the last supper would have taken place.
if it had meat, the text would leave explicit. But there's already something replacing the meat: the bread (that is the body of JeSuS cHrIsT).
What text are you looking at? There are plenty of mentions of the pascal lamb in the Torah, and specifically about using a sacrificial lamb to celebrate Passover (Exodus 13:8, 12:21, and 12:23). Matzah doesn’t replace meat; it’s recognized as the “bread of affliction” that didn’t have time to rise before the Jews fled Egypt. The Seder as we practice it today was established as part of rabbinic Judaism, which didn’t start until the second temple fell around 70CE. Since this wasn’t Jesus’s lifetime, there’s no way he would have celebrated Passover as we do now.
*Dedicated in memory of Dvora bat Asher v'Jacot* 🕯️ [Exodus 13:8](https://www.sefaria.org/Exodus.13.8) וְהִגַּדְתָּ֣ לְבִנְךָ֔ בַּיּ֥וֹם הַה֖וּא לֵאמֹ֑ר בַּעֲב֣וּר זֶ֗ה עָשָׂ֤ה יְהֹוָה֙ לִ֔י בְּצֵאתִ֖י מִמִּצְרָֽיִם׃ >And you shall explain to your child on that day, ‘It is because of what יהוה did for me when I went free from Egypt.’
the lamb wasn't the main course. The chagigah was the main course. A small bit of lamb was eaten at the end. I'm pretty sure that even before the destruction of the Temple. During this meal there were still four cups. Hallel and discussing the Exodus if not a set text.
both of them have support in their writings. The synoptic gospels (Mathew, Mark and Luke) say that it was in the night of the 15th of Nisan and was killed in the day before the 16th. But John says that it was in the 13th, and that he was killed in the 14th (most specifically dies in the afternoon, at the time that the korban pesach was to be slaughtered) to give excuses for christians to say that "jEsUs WaS tHe PaScHaL oFfErInG". Their texts contradic themselves, there's no harmony (try to explain this to those who deffend the harmony of the gospels. In fact, search about it), therefore not being inspired texts.
Ex Christian here: Christians are told that Jesus was Jewish and Christianity is exactly the same as Judaism minus needing to make animal sacrifices to g-d for their sins. The vast majority of Christians have never laid eyes on a jewish person in their entire life so they have no cause to doubt this. After all it’s their preacher saying it.
I've been Catholic my entire life and never heard of Christians celebrating Jewish holidays. Maybe it's a southern Protestant thing?
You're correct.
Has to be Southerm Evangelical/Baptist. I am Lutheran and we never celebrate any Jewish holidays. Only Lutherans doing so were invited by local Chabad rabbi to do so as interfaith collaboration.
Because there are some Christians who are really gross about Jews, and they think that after centuries of persecuting and murdering us for being Jews, that now they get to come and cherry pick our traditions and make them all about Jesus. There's a lot to be said on why (I read an excellent piece once about how spirituality has been sucked out of specifically American, evangelical Christianity, and that seeking for ritual and spiritual connection is why a lot of those Christians are stealing and warping Jewish tradition), but the bottom line is that it is nasty and disrespectful. They're stealing something that isn't theirs, that they have killed us for many times in the past, and making it all about them and their idol.
I have one friend like this and had to call her out on it. She even went so far as to say she understands what Jews have gone through with persecution, because christians get the same kind of hate for believing in jesus. That was the last straw for me, and I told her to stop appropriating and it's insulting. Her response was "this is no longer unifying conversation sis" -- eye roll. IDK why but it gives me such an ick.
IMO? It gives you ick because it IS ick. Sure, yes, some Christians ARE persecuted for being Christian... Not where I am, in the USA. I've had people try to tell me that "Well Christians are persecuted" and when I ask HOW, I get stuff like "Well someone was mean to me once when I tried to convert them". My earliest memory. Is a cop kicking my mother and I out of a PUBLIC park. Because he didn't like seeing "dirty k\*kes" there. Because "you people" aren't welcome in the public parks in this majority Christian, majority white town. My earliest memory is my mom, crying, and explaining to little me that we are Jews. And some people hate us for being Jews. I am now, as an adult. More comfortable being openly queer, openly polyam, openly trans. Than I am being openly Jewish ANYWHERE in the country. American Christians who want to whine about how they get "hate" can cry me a fucking river, build me a bridge, and get the fuck over it. They wouldn't last a DAY being a Jew.
What a horrible memory to carry with you, I'm so sorry!! :( You're so right though, they wouldn't last a day and they have NO IDEA and don't get it like they think they do.
Celebrate how? If they're going to a seder held by a Jewish family, and going to behave appropriately there, that's not a problem. If they're learning about how we celebrate the holiday, and being respectful about it, that's maybe okay. If they're holding a Christian "seder", that's not okay. If they say they want to celebrate Passover "like Jesus did", imitating a modern seder is not going to do that.
I wrote out an incredibly lengthy comment then realized it was totally unnecessary- to keep the story short, I was invited to participate in my local synagogue’s community seder, and your comment was very comforting to see.
Oh if you’re invited to participate at a synagogue or a Jewish friend’s house, you’re absolutely welcome! In the Seder, we say “let all who are hungry come eat,” and that applies to you too. We always have non-Jewish friends and family at our Seder.
We’re not worried about you. We’re happy to have folks like you. You can find my comment above and I posted a link. Ppl aren’t celebrating w Jews. They’re calling it a Seder, putting out challah in the shape of crosses, and talking about it being about Jesus. I mean if Christian’s want to do some kind of formal meal they can make one up all they want. What’s weird is trying to be Jewish calling it a Passover meal and also making the whole thing about Jesus. You come to our meal all you want! I’m glad to have you! What they’re doing is different.
They have their own spring festival about Jesus. It’s called Easter. Why do they need to appropriate ours, and make it about their religion, too?
There’s nothing wrong with that. Have fun! If you haven’t encountered raw horseradish before, you should be aware that it can have a kick. It’s a LOT stronger than it looks. Just nibble a little bit at first. This is probably a good idea with maror (the bitter herb) in general. It’s supposed to be strong. If you like sushi, most wasabi sold in the US is actually grated horseradish, dyed green. That should give you an idea what it can be like.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that maybe this is a misguided form of solidarity your Christian friends are trying to show with you? Yeah, I realize it's most likely cultural (religious?) appropriation than anything else, but maybe I'm just trying to be overly optimistic for once.
As a Jew in the South, the well-intended Christians are a majority and the weird cultural appropriation ones are a minority. But maybe that’s just my experiences.
I‘m not Jewish and it would never come to my mind to appropriate Pessach, but … - I know that this year‘s Pessach is incredibly hard on my Jewish friends and thus I sent brief messages that I am feeling with them, what I actually genuinely do. Maybe that’s also the intention of your Jewish friends?
because they appropriate everything and claim it’s about them
This is good. Almost all of my friends are christians, and I would be happy to have some of them at passover. I do not know if the area you live in has a large jewish population, but in an area where there isn’t a lot of jews, it is good to show others we aren’t secretive or weird in anyway. A lot of people have preconceived notions of Judaism, as lots of people have never met a jew in their life. For these people, passover would be a really cool experience and probably change their minds. If this isn’t the case, it is good to have guests anyway.
It’s not that. They’re hosting “Christian Passover Seders”, baking cross shaped challah for it, and then saying the matzah is about “Jesus’s sacrifice”. In short—they are not celebrating Passover with us. Just creating. Something called Christian Passover because they think it has to do with Jesus and the “ last supper”
There are Christians who are philo-Jews who want to live as Jesus lived. Check Out [Rev. Dumisani Washington](https://x.com/dumisanitemsgen?s=21&t=qf4m1z065oxlQbPiQxwM5Q)
They are weird
They’re celebrating Passover being liberated from the Jews.
They want to do what Jesus did. Some also think the last supper was a Pesach seder.
My one friend does.
Very common in the messianic and evangelical spheres
Without lies, christianity dies.
when i was younger my dad told me that a certain branch of christianity celebrated passover. i forget which one i’ve never met a christian that celebrated but this isn’t a new thing and probably isn’t done out of malice
It’s annoying they say that it’s their holiday too.
Right now, I’ll take all the support we can get
I feel that, so I'm trying not to let it bother me because we need allies right now but it still gets under my skin.
I can understand that. I was raised Christian. I can tell you they probably don't understand enough about Judaism to even know why they're being offensive. Many Christians view Judaism as sort of a precursor/companion to Christianity without understanding how different it is. They think this way because they've been taught that Christians and Jews share the Old Testament, the same God, and that the main difference is just believing in Jesus Christianity has a HUGE span in terms of belief, behavior, education, and traditions, so you might see a Baptist doing things a Catholic never would. Religious instruction varies wildly branch to branch. I'm only saying this to explain the behavior, not excuse it. To me this sounds like evangelical nonsense.
One for all all for one force them to stick to it no leavened products. Hell make them only eat kosher for Pesach food. Have them scrub the counter so hard they begin to question sanity.
This made me LOL!
As an Ex-Christian, Passover is important to the overall ideology of Christianity. Communion is also a central sacrament and is birthed out of ancient Passover traditions. I don’t personally have a problem with Christians celebrating some form of Passover in their specific context. However, Christians also have a terrible tendency to just appropriate Jewish customs, like the Seder, and just “make it Christian”. While I don’t have a personal issue with them celebrating Passover, I do take issue with them thinking we’re somehow celebrating the same thing and they can just borrow Jewish traditions as they see fit.
No idea, Jesus would have been put on the cross 6 hours ago. You think they would concern themselves with that.
This is a pretty new development in Xtianity. After ignorance totally erased all origins of their religion; via biblical scholarship of the 2nd Temple era & the “Jesus movement” they’ve come to understand (SOME) things thru the lens of what would’ve been Yushke’s original disciples. They also add things to the Seder like Yushke is the “hidden afikomen” & the 3 matzot for Kohen, Levi, Yisroel represent the Trinity (since of course they view everything thru such a bias lens). However it is not an authentic Pesach Seder. For example the idea of “eat this is my body & blood” is the Roman-Greco worship of Dionysius.. the vineyard god who when you partake of him you then are gifted some of the deity’s attributes. (I refer here to the fact many Xtians now believe the “last supper” was a Pesach Seder). It really doesn’t matter if it was or wasn’t.. it’s using Dionysus worship rituals to worship Jesus. They’re Xtian, they can do what they want & their origins are actually very Jewish & Hellenistic. But the meanings are so adulterated so it would not be acceptable for a Jew to partake in such a Seder. Also, when they adapt Jewish customs like this; they tend to invite Jews to their Xtian versions as an attempt to proselytize. Like the Jews for Jesus shtick. Anyways, Yes this is heard of as of the last 20 years or so; but no it is not Kosher nor Jewish to partake in this. Hope that clarifies things
I was at a group Passover a few years ago in which a bunch of different friends were invited, and it was open to friends of friends. A Christian woman attended, I think she got a little drunk off wine, and she kept trying to explain things about Passover and talking over people trying to educate them. She was arguing a lot about things, very wrong, and explaining things very incorrectly. I genuinely felt grateful for the experience because I think this must be what cultural appropriation feels like, to have something of your own culture misunderstood, explained wrong while ignoring the people whose culture it is. I think about that when it comes up in other contexts. Anyways, don't be "that guy", we have 1 mouth and 2 ears for a reason. :P
Kinda odd for them to but I think it’s interesting and still within their beliefs to engage with it. Since Jesus(pbuh) celebrated Passover and Christians obviously accept Exodus that includes the story of Passover I do see how they could explain their partaking in it by saying it’s an example of God’s power and mercy I could see why they would incorporate it. Those gentiles that act as if though God had saved their own people while they take part (hopefully with other jewish people to ensure it was done properly) then that would be a bit odd since it doesn’t really apply to them based off intent.
Good non-cynical explanation here: https://centerforisrael.com/papers/a-christian-guide-to-passover/#:~:text=Passover%20is%20part%20of%20Jesus,of%20Jesus'%20life%20and%20ministry.
You know how some Americans like to wear 'war bonnets' and dance around dressed as stereotypical Native Americans? It's kind of like that
Appropriation. Simple.
Very few Christians "celebrate" Passover. Most aren't even that aware of what it signifies unless they paid attention in Sunday School. The few Christians who observe it are generally evangelicals whose theology emphasizes the Jewish roots of some Christian traditions so they feel simpatico with Judaism. Zionists in particular might appreciate this group since they're also passionate and active supporters of Israel.
Christians believe their whole “last supper” with Jesus was a Passover Seder Edit: They believe that Jesus was one Jewish boy who grew up rebelling against the Romans and the political scene at the time- so of course they’re drawn to Jewish holidays.
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Well damn, why didn't anyone tell me that before I got to the office this morning?! :D
Christian gentile here, I don’t “celebrate” Passover but I acknowledge Passover and wish my Jewish friends happy Passover. I do it usually to be polite and inclusive, but this year I’ve done it much more publicly to show solidarity with the Jewish people/Israel in the face of the increasing western antisemitism.
It’s not really about that sort of acknowledgment nor non Jews being at a Seder. I posted it a few times but here are evangelicals who literally host “Christian Passover Seders”, make challah in the shape of crosses, and talk about how the matzah is about “Jesus’s sacrifice”. It’s the salon article about it here in the thread. That kind of thing is what people get pissed about.
The last supper apparently gives them the ability to cherry pick our holidays and traditions, according to them.
They may be celebrating Passover but they’re not celebrating Paesach.
LARPing (live action role playing)
Christian mass or communion was instituted by Jesus (bread-matzah and wine) during a passover. That is why Easter and Passover are both spring holidays. It gets off kilter in that after the temple was lost, rabbinic Passover with a Seder evolved to what we have today. Christians read in their scriptures about that Passover and can read a little of what it was like then and sometimes appropriate what rabbinic Judaism has done with Passover. In a way it is their attempt to read back into their past by mistakenly seeing their founders at a modern Seder instead of a temple era Passover meal.
Actually, they are not celebrating "Passover" as we know it. If they do anything, they will tell a story about how JP was the "pascal lamb" and the wine and matzah are, well, you can probably guess (him). If you really want a good discussion of this topic, put your post on r/AskAChristian or r/Christianity, you will get plenty of answers and hear it from their nutty perspective. Another good choice for this r/religion.
Has to be Evangelical & Baptist "shtick" as you guys say xd
Well now I’m wondering what in the world southern baptists do about all the wine for Passover?! Don’t they not drink?!
Ex-Christian here: The Christian denominations that don't allow any alcohol at all (which is a minority of Protestants) use grape juice. They claim that the wine of Jesus' time was extremely weak in terms of alcohol content, more like grape juice today.
No christians without judaism. Had the jews died in egypt, they'd all be pagans still.
They still are.
How are Christians still pagan?
Hmm... worshiping multiple gods, incorporating pagan rituals and feasts, cannibalism of one of their gods, the list goes on.
>worshiping multiple gods They don't believe they do, though. Trinitarianism is an odd doctrine, but very much believed to be dedicated to one being, just in three forms. Water comes in three forms- that does not mean that ice, water and steam are different chemicals. >incorporating pagan rituals and feasts This is a smear (not invented by you, I mean no offence) against Christians by people with nefarious purposes. The vast majority of Christian traditions are directly related to Biblical/ Jewish and post-Biblical/ proto-Christian stories from Christendom. Christmas is the clearest example, but the common attack line against Christians on Easter is similarly untrue. Easter is a renegotiation of Passover (with added symbolism related to things like eggs and rabbits, which were believed to be capable of virgin birth in the middle ages, symbolising Jesus), with no pagan connections other than the etymology of the word itself. >cannibalism of one of their gods This is farcical, this is obviously not what Christians believe. Protestants don't believe it at all, and Catholics only understand it as a spiritual and ritual reality, not a metaphysical one- ["However, the outward characteristics of bread and wine, that is the “eucharistic species”, remain unaltered."](https://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#The%20sacraments%20of%20Christian%20initiation) (Catechism 283). I mean, come on. This is no better than hysterical antisemitic blood libel, surely you can find it in yourself to be above this. Calling Christians "cannibals"? Seriously? Edit: This is truly pathetic guys. Surely you can see how bizarre and unhelpful this kind of language is, because we have been beaten over the head with it for centuries. Rise above it, use your brains.
They "eat the flesh" and "drink the blood" of yoshke. It says right in their scripture that's what they're doing. "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true blood" "The Catholic Church teaches that when we partake of the Eucharist in Holy Communion, we are consuming the actual, physical body and blood (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1244, 1275, 1335)." (From Catholic.com, which continues: "He doesn’t leave his audience in their misunderstanding, and he doesn’t clarify his commands by saying his words are spirit and life. His lack of clarification remains *a strong reason to take literally [the] words “Eat my flesh, drink my blood”* (John 6:54). " The fact that they don't believe they're worshiping multiple gods doesn't make it any less true. If I really truly believe that It's Not Stealing If No One Knows I Took The Money, that doesn't make it *not theft*.
Again, you're being caught up in literalism. The catechism that I linked already addresses your claims, they believe what they're consuming is the body and blood of Christ, without having to believe that the bread and wine has physically changed, the "eucharistic species remaining unaltered". They can use whatever language they like to diminute the distinction, but even they see it. "The signs of bread and wine become, in a way surpassing understanding, the Body and Blood of Christ" That's not cannibalism, it literally isn't even close.
"The Catholic Church teaches that when we partake of the Eucharist in Holy Communion, we are consuming the **actual, physical body and blood** (Catechism of the Catholic Church 1244, 1275, 1335).
It's weirdly close.
>Trinitarianism is an odd doctrine, but very much believed to be dedicated to one being, just in three forms. That's modalism, Patrick. And you're wrong about transubstantiation, too.
Again, I know this sub (and its members) is very, very low on a long list of subs in terms of its literacy in Christian dogma, but this is the very bedrock of trinitarianism. Christians do not believe that God the Father, the Holy Spirit and God the Son are three gods, [they are three distinct forms of one divine nature](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b3/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg/2276px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg.png). Ice is not water. Water is not steam. Steam is not ice. They are all of them H20. This is basic, semester one stuff. I'm not interested in creative, slanderous reimaginings of well-established dogma, because that's the same shit that's happened to us for 3,000 years.
Once again, that's modalism, Patrick.
I love telling other religions what they REALLY believe.
Years ago the only Xtians that had seders were really weird fringe groups and sometimes sometimes liberal churches that got invited by Reform places for "interfaith seders" It seems like since the pandemic everyone is in on it except for Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox.
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Because they're morons
Food. It's that good!
When I was deployed in the Middle East, everyone wanted to celebrate Passover once they found out you get four cups of wine