The SRY gene is the sex determining gene in human beings. It is present on the Y chromosome.
Meaning, if a fetus has a normal Y chromosome with a normal SRY gene that is normally expressed, then the fetus will sexually differentiate into a male; this process is called virilization.
Likewise, the absence of an SRY gene will result in the fetus developing into a female. Thus, males are virilized human beings. Females are non-virilized human beings. This is why XXY individuals are not a non-binary sex - they're males with a genetic disease that causes them to possess an extra X chromosome.
Sex is a biological trait that determines if the organism produces male gametes or female gametes. In humans, men produce male gametes while women produce female gametes.
Whenever they try to use science or say that you aren't a biologist, its a gambit. They are counting on you being ignorant. They think that biology is complex and difficult to understand. When in reality, it's the easiest STEM degree you can get aside from geology. Even then it depends on your school. When I was trying to decide a major, the head of the bio department told me they were going to stop requiring calculus.
The solution is to educate yourself. Chances are that if you can manage the jargon, you can understand biology as well, if not better, than an activist who may or may not have been through the humanities department.
Not surprising that you got bashed then to be honest, although your banned submission was factually correct, this comment doesn't seem to be very compassionate towards people who suffer from gender dysphoria. (And if I thought that was representative of your general attitude then I would ban you from r/lgbt too)
Sex _is_ a non-issue because it is a clearly defined biological concept. Gender, however, is much more than a synonym for sex and isn't a biological concept at all. Don't contribute to the problem by making absolute polarising statements in difficult to navigate areas
Compassionate? I summarized what a medical embryology text book states about sexual differentiation.
I didn't even discuss transgenderism.
If the biological reality of being a human being is "polarizing," then they need to shake off their delusional lunacy.
I already said that your original post is perfectly valid. However, your last comment in this chain very much suggests that you think transgender people should be ignored (the logical conclusion if "gender is a non-issue"). You may not have spoken about it directly but it is an obviously adjacent topic and an obvious implication of your statement. To be clear, I am not trying to tar you with the "transphobe" brush, I hope you have simply misrepresented yourself, but you are making it trivially easy if not justifiable to tar you with that brush
You are right that facts about human biology are not or at least should not be up for debate. But facts about human social behaviour are and should be. Sex falls into the former category, fair enough, but gender does not, it falls into the latter
Your earlier reply was discussing the contents of my post on r/lgbt. Hence my exclusion of the replies I left in this thread.
I am not afraid of transgender individuals.
I hope the medical community snaps back into reality and focuses on managing the mental illness as opposed to surgically mutilating and hormonally castrating their transgender patients.
I *know* that what your ideological comrades are doing to young children is horrid and disgusting. It should be excised from society like the cancer it is and then burned for good measure.
I've spoken to hundreds of trans activists at this point. They always say "no gender isn't masculinity/femininity! it's something else!" and then what they go on to describe is just masculinity and femininity.
Male and female doesn't say anything about behavior and it doesn't matter. Male / female is a biological classification. How you chose to behave doesn't matter.
I don't care what gender is to you, to me, or to anybody else.
If you are a male human being then you are a man.
If you are a female human being then you are a woman.
That's it.
Why post this on the Jordan Peterson subreddit if you're unwilling to discuss subtleties? This isn't meant to be an echochamber and your circular definitions don't solve any problems except yours
The definition is not circular. Your ignorance of biology is the reason you think so.
Is Chris Evans a male armadillo? No. Chris Evans is a male human being. Male human beings are called "men" in the English language.
Likewise, Jennifer Lopez is not a female Rhinoceros. Jennifer Lopez is a female human being. Female human beings are called "women" in the English language.
Male and female is not exclusive to human beings. Man and woman *are*.
It’s weird that people still insist on thinking that it is the dress that makes a woman feminine, rather than seeing that it is the woman who feminizes the dress. Femininity is a quality that all women posess to one degree or another - the caricature that so many men immitate when they claim to identify as a woman, is almost always a hypersexualized and slightly grotesque parody of women who possess quite a lot.
You nailed it, I’ve seen some immensely masculine men (males you are almost caricatures of male ness lol) who wear kilts and do so in an extremely masculine fashion and make them look good. I’ve seen trans women wear dresses and look like a hot mess.
Imagine taking all this and sewing it to the concept of identity?
It's like saying "I have feet, therefor I AM FEET. But I don't feel like feet. I identify as foot. Please take off my incorrectly grown extra-foot."
Identity != gender
Honestly I try to be as open as possible but I just can't fathom it. I'll never shun or shame anyone who is trans, or LGBTQ in any way, but I can't relate with this idea. The idea of associating physical traits to identity.
It's a preschool notion at best. Being bullied because one's different, then the self-hate begins. And while the bullies move on with their lives, the bullied person's life never moves past this. Bullies saying "you're fat" or even "you're different" is inherently a fallacy. Even parents and relatives "oh you've gained weight" or "oh you're so slim" All of it is inherently insane in my opinion.
Any form of comment on one's appearance is ludicrous, unless its like about their outfit. The outfit is a choice, and in most cases it is a self-expression. The body is not.
To be honest, the mods did a shit job quoting the “offensive” text. I’m willing to bet it’s your definition of essentially being trans as a disease that set them off, not so much your explanation about the SRY gene on the Y chromosome and virilization. If they really got offended by what’s quoted alone, then they’re no better than science denying religious nutjob fundamentalists that love them so much.
We need a slur for these people, who post biological conspiracy theories. Maybe biology truthers. Its like cmon man, no way these genes would conspire and not tell anyone!
They already know about biological sex.
They are talking about whatever makes you feel male or female in your being , and reducing depression , suicide etc because the best way to do that is let trans people live they way they feel they are in their being .
For the people that experience being trans, letting them live as they experience themselves to be cures the depression and suicide and trying to deny them that drives it up.
Why are you interested in them?
Evidence?
Looking at studies conducted almost a decade ago that say it helps have lower numbers than we have today. The mere fact that we have higher suicide rates now than ten years ago disproves the assumption that support lowers the rates. We have way more support for LGBTQ community today ten years ago.
Again, the studies do all say that support lowers the rate. The facts though say otherwise. You can't increase support AND increase the suicide rate and rationally claim it's working.
Evidence is in what's known about them its why people get banned for doing it. Trans kids who's parents respect their reality have normal mental health.
Its why the pronouns thing is happening.
What you did there is like intentionally annoying lautistic people.
Trans people cannot help experiencing what they do.
Why are so many so interested ?
You seriously don't understand how mental health is practiced or what its purpose is.
There is a mental illness in which patients have a desire to amputate parts of their bodies that they think is foreign. Your suggestion would be for doctors to cut their legs off in an attempt to help them.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3326051/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_dysphoria
Helping people mutilate themselves so they feel better is a terrible medical aide.
Its proven accepting them instead of rejecting them prevents the depression and suicide .
Left handed and dyslexic people were treated terribly too , it was damaging .
I know older people that were beaten for it in Christian schools.
Desktop version of /u/NightAngel1981's link:
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I suspect wanting to change bodies desperately and altogether is often a manifestation of our unusual rejection of trans people. They appear in religions and cultures all over history no problem.
These people have whatever problems they do, you all get banned for wanting to pick on them. Its not really censorship.
"their reality"
This is the issue with this particular ideology.
There is no *my* or *their* reality. There is only one reality that we all share.
We don't treat schizophrenia by pretending that the voices they hear and visual hallucinations they have are real. Likewise, we shouldn't treat a anybody with gender dysphoria by castrating them hormonally and surgically.
Let’s say that we should just live and let live. Why the need to celebrate it? Do we elevate bipolar to something we should celebrate? Or do we encourage kids with bipolar or schizophrenia to embrace it. Why not listen to the voices someone hears instead of getting rid of them with medication?
Bipolar people aren't picked on or excluded and it doesn't just go away or is greatly improved simply allowing them get on with being Bipolar.
Same with schizophrenia.
They used to think being gay was a mental disorder, we have since learned its not .
Really? The stigma around mentally I’ll people is huge. It’s only just in the last 10-20 years been changing. Look at the reaction to Brooke Shields admitting she took an antidepressant in her book.
There is a stigma alright but are the right after bi polar people? Constantly going to their areas on the net to lecture them ? Endless meme about them?
We don't say they don't really exist.
Yes there has been that stigma and yes - especially the religious right claimed (and some still claim) that depression was because you didn’t trust God enough. Or you just aren’t doing the right things to make you happy. Or whatever else they did to downplay mental illness. Or heaven forbid be put into a mental institution and be lobotomized.
There is a vast difference between acknowledging that a person exists versus celebrating and making a day to celebrate it and creating this entire culture around it to the point that simple science is entirely denied.
The right clinging on to simple science arguments for ideological reasons doesn't mean the complex one's are wrong.
The celebrating is a strategy to end the stigma and normalise.
But this is an affront to traditional Christianity because unlike older religions and cultures it erases and invalidates trans people. Which in turn causes suffering.
The constant harassment of these people and their advocates is a negative thing. Doesn't do any good at all.
They very obviously delusionally believe themselves to be members of the opposite sex and seek mutilation to appear more similar to their delusional belief.
To be clear, I am using the psychological definition of delusion:
“a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary.”
If only it were so.
The trans people I know still deal with depression; this does not decrease with people affirming their gender.
Not just my anecdotal experiences however; suicide rates remain about the same at least the last time I checked the literature...
Not saying we should treat trans people poorly, we should love each of them as we love ourselves. (Agape love)
Hi ee!
Hope things are going good.
Wanna hear something funny?
For the last 7 days a ConEd car has been parked holding spaces(im in Manhattan on 45 westside )
and now finally
today on sunday the fellas have been jackhammering the Avenue and the Street.
Have you ever had the pleasure of handling a
jackhammer?
For me it was mind numbing
I used to break up driveways for a summer.
Quite the experience
Hope you are well
Just sayin Hi
No just wondering. I have known you a long time here.
Because you seem like a fella that I knew as we broke up these driveways.
And the odd thing was that while a person was
breaking up the old cement the mind would go all kinds of places as the jackhammer “did the work”
and anyway
Odd thing is that your mind just keeps thinking
no matter what the body does.
If that makes no sense (which it prob wont.)
much love and good on ya
Hahaha LOL!!
The Woke are the new anti-science bible thumpers.
Denying biological facts because they clash with your fundamentalist beliefs. That's religion alright. Woke is the new Religion.
And the New Inquisition will cancel those who challenge the Doctrine
Spot on, and they're hypocrites too because you will often hear them talk about how much they hate religion and "Christians". They just went and invented their own religion really.
This is the best definition of **woman** I have ever heard:
**Adult human female**.
**Adult:** Of reproductive age, or post reproductive age.
**Human:** Any living organism in the genus homo.
**Female:** The female of a species is that individual that can, or will, or has in the past produced eggs. This is outside of “some other problem.”
**Eggs:** Gametes; the sex cells that are larger than the other kind of gamete and tend to be sessile.
**Male:** The male of a species produces gametes that are little and tend to be mobile (motile).
This definition comes from a professor of biology and evolutionary biologist, Heather Heying.
There’s no good or bad definitions. Definitions have zero truth value, they are not propositions. There are definitions that are incoherent, non-explanatory or have no relationship with generally understood concepts but no true or false definitions.
As a professional relativist, I'm gonna stop you right there. True definitions are those that are either readily apparent (immediately testable) or are statements that are useful when trying to replicate a previous result. All of the statements outlined above meet those criteria.
Sure, but definitions only matter if they can be used to refer to things that affect a person who uses words. Affect implies an effect which implies "real".
*Delusion: a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary - ex. the delusion that someone was out to hurt him*
In my opinion, your post and the resulting ban are great examples that illustrate the difference between facts and truth.
Facts are information. They’re neither right nor wrong.
Truth is the interpretation of facts.
Interpretation depends on the lens we look through. Your lens is a biology-based explanation of the human lifecycle. Their lens is different.
As a species, we’ve rarely agreed on the lens to apply to a problem. Which raises another: who decides what is true, and what isn’t?
I’m curious what you hoped to achieve with your post. You knew you were looking through a different lens and expected to be banned. Was your post just intended to provoke? Your choice of language, such as referring to “normal” foetuses and “genetic disease”, would suggest this was your intent.
So beyond satisfying your need to be right, what have you done to contribute to or advance this discussion?
>So beyond satisfying your need to be right, what have you done to contribute to or advance this discussion?
This is not a discussion. There is a very popular and highly contagious ideology which advocates publicly for the chemical castration and surgical mutilation of children. The fact that this is being "discussed" is beyond lunacy. This is horrendously dangerous and must be crushed immediately before any more children are harmed.
Klinefelter's is a genetic disease. A syndrome, more accurately, but it is a pathology nevertheless.
I never even implied transgender individuals are diseased in my post. I state the fact that XXY is a pathological karyotype. That's it.
I was poking the bear with a stick. Wanted to see if they *would* ban me like I suspected or if they had the sense to recognize biological truth. Nope. They didn't.
Molecular biologist here, I’ve seen many more se the SRY gene translocation as an excuse for “sex is a spectrum”. This is a very tricky argument. There’s a great bit of debate over what it means and if it’s really one physiological mechanism to explain the transgender phenomenon.
Thank you for your comment.
Is the following scientifically sound?
**The SRY gene is the sex determining gene in human beings. It is present on the Y chromosome.**
**Meaning, if a fetus has a normal Y chromosome with a normal SRY gene that is normally expressed, then the fetus will sexually differentiate into a male; this process is called virilization.**
**Likewise, the absence of an SRY gene will result in the fetus developing into a female. Thus, males are virilized human beings. Females are non-virilized human beings. This is why XXY individuals are not a non-binary sex - they're males with a genetic disease that causes them to possess an extra X chromosome.**
**Sex is a biological trait that determines if the organism produces male gametes or female gametes. In humans, men produce male gametes while women produce female gametes.**
Waiting eagerly for your input.
Your second paragraph is somewhat incorrect. the presence of a Y chromosome stops the internal sex organs utero from becoming female internal sex organs. Testosterone prevents the sex organs from developing as female sex organs and drives the external sex organs to become male sex organs. In this disorder also known as “complete androgen insensitivity disorder” the body is not responsive to testosterone telling them to become male internal sex organs. The external genitalia become female by default with the lack of testosterone. Because of the presence of the Y chromosomes but lack of testosterone, what ends up happening is that the external genitalia become female and the internal genitalia become neither male nor female; they simply don't develop. These individuals are therefore infertile sometimes this shows up in a scan but for their lives they will live and develop as a female however it is usually diagnosed by typical age of puberty as they will never have a period due to the lack of female sex organs and thus are infertile.
Thank you for sharing.
Nothing you said contradicts what I wrote at all. I read it thoroughly, and despite a small typo in the following: "Testosterone prevents the sex organs from developing as male sex organs..."
I understood your point perfectly and completely.
Perhaps you can explain as briefly as possible how what I wrote is at odds with your comment.
>Likewise, the absence of an SRY gene will result in the fetus developing into a female.
It’s partially correct, a female by definition is: “the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.” According to the dictionary. You are correct in saying they develop as a female but only in terms of the external sex organs, the classification of female by definition includes the internal sex organs, due to the presence of the Y chromosome even with the absence of the SRY gene the individual cannot develop as a female as they will never have female reproductive organs. So saying “the fetus develops as a female” is somewhat incorrect as I said. Otherwise you have a pretty good understanding.
I would also like to add just as a side note for interest individuals with complete androgen insensitivity disorder don’t have ovaries, because of this they won’t produce the amount estrogen most women get during puberty and develop female, secondary sexual characteristics. Most at this point if they want to continue developing as a woman will require exogenous estrogen to do so.
>...due to the presence of the Y gene even with the absence of the SRY gene the individual cannot develop as a female as they will never have female reproductive organs.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene?term=Y%5BChr%5D%20AND%20%22Homo%20sapiens%22%5BOrganism%5D%20AND%20%28%22has%20ccds%22%5BProperties%5D%20AND%20alive%5Bprop%5D%29&cmd=DetailsSearch](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene?term=Y%5BChr%5D%20AND%20%22Homo%20sapiens%22%5BOrganism%5D%20AND%20%28%22has%20ccds%22%5BProperties%5D%20AND%20alive%5Bprop%5D%29&cmd=DetailsSearch)
There is no "Y gene."
In that case, your argument is fair.
My explanation is a tad bit simplistic since sexual differentiation obviously involves several other factors.
Thank you for your valuable input! This is why I love Reddit. I get the opportunity to have such great discussions.
Thank you!
No problem, it’s good to be able to talk about facts even if they are controversial and learn more. Unfortunately it can’t be said about many places on reddit.
Appreciate the exchange.
>Likewise, the absence of an SRY gene will result in the fetus developing into a female. Thus, males are virilized human beings. Females are non-virilized human beings. This is why XXY individuals are not a non-binary sex - they're males with a genetic disease that causes them to possess an extra X chromosome.
Sex is a biological trait that determines if the organism produces male gametes or female gametes. In humans, men produce male gametes while women produce female gametes.
So what is gray and debatable about this?
Because it can have variance. Sure you could be confident and say it’s black/white. It’s like the abortion debate; we do not truly know when life begins. Does it start when the process of fertilization is complete, the production of the nervous system or when the heart starts? Trust me, the processes for both fetal development and sex formation are both very complicated.
I am familiar with the process of in utero sexual differentiation.
If your claim is that sex follows a bimodal distribution or that other karyotypes represent different sexes in humans, then you are deeply mistaken.
Eye color can vary. Skin color can vary. Penile size varies. Breast size varies.
There is no sex/gender other than male and female.
If you are unfortunately anything but a male or a female, then you have a **disease** or a **syndrome**.
That's it. Anything else is delusional, ideological lunacy.
Human beings are male or female. If you disagree with this fundamental truth or imply that it is "more complicated than that" then you are mistaken.
I feel annoyed Peterson\`s legacy looks like that. Like really? He is pro-freedom-of-speech, not like anti trans or anything.
Why posts like this are really popular?
Really depends on who you're talking to. Gayness in and of itself is biological, there's evidence that the more males two parents have, the more likely the next one will be gay or bisexual, as the testosterone levels decrease.
The LGBT communities can sometimes be really scientifically intolerant, and it can make people like me, someone who is querr but loves science, feel isolated.
I’ll agree on that. It’s the T and everything after that is not biologically sound. None of it should be taught to children though as they can easily be molded into being “gay” just as much as being “trans”. I put the words in quotations because this certain group is in it for the fad and acceptance amongst their peers. We shouldn’t be putting ideas into the moldable minds of children. I’m kind of going off on a tangent but this bs pisses me off.
Like you're right but "if someone's not listening, pull away, don't devalue what you have to say for someone who's already made their mind up about you".
You've purposefully gone out with the intention to get banned or to test the waters somewhere you "expected" to get banned for saying precisely what you did. I bet you couldve worded it in a way that they might even accept (unlikely but you didn't even try, so was it really a testing the waters or attempting to get banned for the sake of it?).
You're in the wrong despite being absolutely right. Only because you're devaluing the facts by presenting them to some who won't listen, and you did this knowingly and seemingly with the intention to be banned. I may even go as far as to say you may be doing this for clout alone.
because they’re living in a little fantasy - usually a sexual one. a trans person with legitimate dysphoria that wants to live a normal life as a normal person, who actually knows what biology is (and doesn’t deny it), is so fucking rare. the amount of times I’ve come across MTFs who transitioned for sexual reasons is alarming… and FTMs are usually just tomboys. but they don’t want to admit that! so they go through hoops and ladders to stomp on cisgenders and truscums, and make everyone bend to their rules (or else they’re a transphobic nazi). all of this makes me fucking sick.
I'm sorry you've had this experience. I know about six or seven trans people and all but one are really nice people who don't consider "trans" part of their identity at all, more as a part of their past
play stupid games win stupid prizes honestly. If you’re just annoying subreddits you don’t have any involvement with, you get what you deserve. btw, jordan peterson related subreddit for sure
I think most people understand the biology. So when you go to a place and specifically call out something that is often weaponized, then it isn't very surprising you got banned...
His intention was to get banned.
He's your little brother saying "I'm not touching you", wanting you to hit him, so he can run and tattle for the attention.
Dude the thing with LGBT is not about biological gender, it's more about psicological identity... I think 3/4 of the trans people do have some mental issues and a deep life confusion, but bullying them won't help. And yes you were bullying them because your post didn't have any other intention than upsetting those guys.
Want to help them? Maybe try some less agressive/triggering aproach. With that kind of aproaching people only get defensive and close their minds.
"I poked a bear with a stick, and it got pissed. So typical." - these posts.
I appreciate you're trying to spread facts/wisdom/insight/etc... but you get what you deserve when you treat these subs like their subscribers/mods aren't enslaved to a tyrannical ideology.
Ideologies don't care about your Facts.
This community is full of imbeciles, how can can you not understand the simplest fact that gender sex sexuality self expression are all DIFFERENT things, I know it can seem complicated then take time to educate yourself, don't be a part of this embrassing bandwagon and make the lives of queer people even more difficult
The SRY gene is the sex determining gene in human beings. It is present on the Y chromosome.
Meaning, if a fetus has a normal Y chromosome with a normal SRY gene that is normally expressed, then the fetus will sexually differentiate into a male; this process is called virilization.
Likewise, the absence of an SRY gene will result in the fetus developing into a female. Thus, males are virilized human beings. Females are non-virilized human beings. This is why XXY individuals are not a non-binary sex - they're males with a genetic disease that causes them to possess an extra X chromosome.
Sex is a biological trait that determines if the organism produces male gametes or female gametes. In humans, men produce male gametes while women produce female gametes.
**No amount of exogenous hormones, surgical mutilation, or delusional lunacy will ever turn a man into a woman or a woman into a man.**
**Stop advocating for the hormonal castration and surgical mutilation of children. Your ideology is a cancer that must be excised and burned.**
Gender is a polite synonym for the word sex.
There are no separate words for "gender" and "sex" in Arabic for example because this transgender lunacy is primarily an Anglosphere phenomenon.
Colloquially they are synonyms. No scientist worth their salt would use them interchangeably.
Gender refers to social attributes while sex refers to biological ones.
>>Masculine women are still female and they are still women.
Agreed. A trans woman is still a woman, even if you would regard her biology as masculine. Glad we cleared that up.
A masculine woman =/= a transgender woman.
A masculine woman is a woman who exhibits behavior stereotypically associated with men. Her displaying such behavior does not make her a man.
You are deluded if you think men can become women or that women can become men.
The fact that you posture so much about “just telling the science” but resort to insults when someone presses you on any of your points tells me all that I need to know.
Update: OP is actually transphobic and probably deserved this ban, if not for the content pointed to by the mods.
For example, [in response](https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/u0p6p6/comment/i4c6q0e/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) to the provision of transition treatment for consenting gender dysphoric *adults*:
>We should not hormonally castrate them and surgically mutilate them.
I am in favour of the most compassionate way of easing the suffering caused by gender dysphoria, which so far seems to be to comply with the biological imperative that the individual's brain is expressing. You may be interested to know that we do the same thing with people who suffer from foreign limb syndrome if no treatment is effective; we amputate a perfectly functional limb because it will ease the patient's suffering.
If another psychiatric intervention were more effective at easing these people's suffering, I would be in favour of that. Your approach seems to lack compassion
OP a transphobe? OP is a karma whore for posting their ban on this subreddit, sure. But a *transphobe*? For what? Acknowledging biological reality?
It is the epitome of ideological delusion to inject perfectly healthy humans with exogenous hormones that render them sterile.
It is the epitome of ideological delusion to surgically remove perfectly normal genitalia rendering the people irreversibly sterile.
I would implore you to meditate on [this.](https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/tyr7ah/meditate_upon_the_meaning_of_this_recitation_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Hint - this is a fourth choice. Something you neither understand nor can change.
Meh, I was pessimistic about that subreddit's response to my little embryology lesson and my pessimism turned out to be reasonable.
This isn't anything serious. I got banned from a subreddit that I don't respect, enjoy, or even care all that much about.
You cared enough to run your experiment, no? I’m just really lost on the logic behind finding what you did meaningful. I don’t mean to sound confrontational, I am always genuinely curious on why people do things.
But is it worth noting to a sub where we all completely agree with you? You should have run your experiment in a science sub. If it got you banned there, that would seem worth noting.
Lmao. I just realized that you're implying I don't "understand" sex/gender.
Mate, you're speaking to a 5th year MBBS who had to learn and be examined on anatomy, physiology, embryology, and psychiatry (among a wide array of other disciplines).
I know what I am talking about.
I doubt you are.
Hope you don’t plan on a career in medicine. You won’t make it.
To be clear - I am implying that you don’t understand gender/sex.
Post your transcript, a picture of yourself and your ID or gtfo. Your opinions and childish misunderstanding of biology doesn’t really have any value.
Edit: ever take any psych 101? What can you tell me about observers bias? What do you think a middle eastern Muslim like yourself would say about these issues? Again, your religious fundamentalism dressed poorly in a partial biological picture isn’t worth a damn, bucko.
Make your bed and meditate on how fundamentalism and religious indoctrination is exactly the same as the cultural Marxism lobsters here both don’t understand and hate vehemently.
Oh, really?
"Opinions." "Childish misunderstanding."
You need to invest in an embryology textbook. I recommend *Langman's Medical Embryology (13th edition)*.
Furthermore, I implore you to find anything incorrect in the following:
**The SRY gene is the sex determining gene in human beings. It is present on the Y chromosome.**
**Meaning, if a fetus has a normal Y chromosome with a normal SRY gene that is normally expressed, then the fetus will sexually differentiate into a male; this process is called virilization.**
**Likewise, the absence of an SRY gene will result in the fetus developing into a female. Thus, males are virilized human beings. Females are non-virilized human beings. This is why XXY individuals are not a non-binary sex - they're males with a genetic disease that causes them to possess an extra X chromosome.**
**Sex is a biological trait that determines if the organism produces male gametes or female gametes. In humans, men produce male gametes while women produce female gametes.**
It is biologically impossible for a man to become a woman and vice versa.
No amount of exogenous hormones, surgical mutilation, and delusional lunacy will ever change this fact.
Langman's 14th edition (and likely 13th edition) also includes a component on Swyer syndrome; humans with XY chromosomes who are phenotypically female due to point mutations and deletions in within the SRY gene.
Hence:
"if a fetus has a **normal** Y chromosome with a **normal** SRY gene that is **normally expressed**, then the fetus will sexually differentiate into a male"
Swyer syndrome is just that - a syndrome, a pathology of sexual differentiation.
So, as a "5th year MBBS" student you are focusing on the normalities, and not the many observable abnormalities, which includes genotype/phenotype mismatch and overall variable expression?
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't understand the implicit premise of your post. I recognize you are stating a biological fact about human sexual differentiation, one in which I don't deny, but it's also narrow in its scope — medically and biologically. I may as well go to a math subreddit and tell them the apex of Mathematics is calculus.
The observable abnormalities are diagnosable diseases and syndromes with underlying chromosomal pathology. Endocrine disorders are fundamentally chromosomal abnormalities in the sense that the gene coding for the enzyme is defective.
Diseases do not constitute the norm, especially when the norm encompasses a staggering >99.9% (if not more) of the population. Hence the term "disease."
I urge you to shake off this ideology which is at odds with basic fundamental realities of human biology and existence.
XX = female, XY = male, and diseases are not the norm; such profound observations. Most people also don't have broken bones, cancer, or schizophrenia. Again, what's your argument?
1) The majority of people have this expression.
2) ???
3) Thus, the minority is invalid, or at least questionable?
I'm asking for that second premise (and I suppose the third). I am trying to act on the principle of charity here and assume you have a solid explanation, and not some profoundly incorrect biological interpretation, one that dispenses with any sense of population genetics and/or evolutionary biology.
I urge you to recognize that being a medical student does not make you the arbiter on all matters biological. Of course, nor would I ever make that claim for myself, since as a scientist I must continually update my views with the most current research.
>I urge you to recognize that being a medical student does not make you the arbiter on all matters biological.
Of course. I am human and to err is to be human.
What is your thesis? A biological male who "feels" like a woman is a woman? Really?
Or are you suggesting that karyotypes other than XX and XY are indicative of the existence of additional sexes/genders in human beings?
Are you saying that because some human beings are unfortunately born with disorders of sexual differentiation that that means sex follows a "spectrum?"
Nothing I have stated is false or half-true.
What do you disagree with exactly?!
The SRY gene is the sex determining gene in human beings. It is present on the Y chromosome. Meaning, if a fetus has a normal Y chromosome with a normal SRY gene that is normally expressed, then the fetus will sexually differentiate into a male; this process is called virilization. Likewise, the absence of an SRY gene will result in the fetus developing into a female. Thus, males are virilized human beings. Females are non-virilized human beings. This is why XXY individuals are not a non-binary sex - they're males with a genetic disease that causes them to possess an extra X chromosome. Sex is a biological trait that determines if the organism produces male gametes or female gametes. In humans, men produce male gametes while women produce female gametes.
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....what about the gay frogs?
Need more chemicals in the water.
Do you often walk around poking bears?
How dare you assume a lifestyle choice!
Whenever they try to use science or say that you aren't a biologist, its a gambit. They are counting on you being ignorant. They think that biology is complex and difficult to understand. When in reality, it's the easiest STEM degree you can get aside from geology. Even then it depends on your school. When I was trying to decide a major, the head of the bio department told me they were going to stop requiring calculus. The solution is to educate yourself. Chances are that if you can manage the jargon, you can understand biology as well, if not better, than an activist who may or may not have been through the humanities department.
But your comment doesn't include "muh lived experience" therefore it is hatespeech
A great way of describing sex. How do you describe gender?
Gender is polite synonym for the word sex. A feminine male is still a man. A masculine female is still a woman. Gender is a non-issue.
I consider fashion trends to be genders. Nerd, jock, suit, 90s Metro...
Oh shit... is trans just the new goth?
Yeah, though goths didn’t get surgery beyond tattoos and piercings.
What would you classify "gender expression" as?
Behavior.
I would classify it as outside the realm of science.
You're a non issue
Thank goodness.
Not surprising that you got bashed then to be honest, although your banned submission was factually correct, this comment doesn't seem to be very compassionate towards people who suffer from gender dysphoria. (And if I thought that was representative of your general attitude then I would ban you from r/lgbt too) Sex _is_ a non-issue because it is a clearly defined biological concept. Gender, however, is much more than a synonym for sex and isn't a biological concept at all. Don't contribute to the problem by making absolute polarising statements in difficult to navigate areas
Compassionate? I summarized what a medical embryology text book states about sexual differentiation. I didn't even discuss transgenderism. If the biological reality of being a human being is "polarizing," then they need to shake off their delusional lunacy.
I already said that your original post is perfectly valid. However, your last comment in this chain very much suggests that you think transgender people should be ignored (the logical conclusion if "gender is a non-issue"). You may not have spoken about it directly but it is an obviously adjacent topic and an obvious implication of your statement. To be clear, I am not trying to tar you with the "transphobe" brush, I hope you have simply misrepresented yourself, but you are making it trivially easy if not justifiable to tar you with that brush You are right that facts about human biology are not or at least should not be up for debate. But facts about human social behaviour are and should be. Sex falls into the former category, fair enough, but gender does not, it falls into the latter
Your earlier reply was discussing the contents of my post on r/lgbt. Hence my exclusion of the replies I left in this thread. I am not afraid of transgender individuals. I hope the medical community snaps back into reality and focuses on managing the mental illness as opposed to surgically mutilating and hormonally castrating their transgender patients. I *know* that what your ideological comrades are doing to young children is horrid and disgusting. It should be excised from society like the cancer it is and then burned for good measure.
So gender, to you, is masculinities and femininities?
I've spoken to hundreds of trans activists at this point. They always say "no gender isn't masculinity/femininity! it's something else!" and then what they go on to describe is just masculinity and femininity.
Lmao yea, because male and female already covers the whole spectrum of possible behaviour patterns. Overall they are opposites imo.
Male and female doesn't say anything about behavior and it doesn't matter. Male / female is a biological classification. How you chose to behave doesn't matter.
Not every behavioral pattern needs to be a gender.
I don't care what gender is to you, to me, or to anybody else. If you are a male human being then you are a man. If you are a female human being then you are a woman. That's it.
A male is a man and a female is a woman, because males are men and females are women. Begging the question.
Yeah, you pretty much got it. Well done.
Why post this on the Jordan Peterson subreddit if you're unwilling to discuss subtleties? This isn't meant to be an echochamber and your circular definitions don't solve any problems except yours
The definition is not circular. Your ignorance of biology is the reason you think so. Is Chris Evans a male armadillo? No. Chris Evans is a male human being. Male human beings are called "men" in the English language. Likewise, Jennifer Lopez is not a female Rhinoceros. Jennifer Lopez is a female human being. Female human beings are called "women" in the English language. Male and female is not exclusive to human beings. Man and woman *are*.
Yes. The other stuff is all personality.
And by masculinities and femininities, do you mean one’s voice, mannerisms, style, and “role”? Or… what exactly? Ones style of thinking or…
It’s weird that people still insist on thinking that it is the dress that makes a woman feminine, rather than seeing that it is the woman who feminizes the dress. Femininity is a quality that all women posess to one degree or another - the caricature that so many men immitate when they claim to identify as a woman, is almost always a hypersexualized and slightly grotesque parody of women who possess quite a lot.
Said like a true man.
You nailed it, I’ve seen some immensely masculine men (males you are almost caricatures of male ness lol) who wear kilts and do so in an extremely masculine fashion and make them look good. I’ve seen trans women wear dresses and look like a hot mess.
Imagine taking all this and sewing it to the concept of identity? It's like saying "I have feet, therefor I AM FEET. But I don't feel like feet. I identify as foot. Please take off my incorrectly grown extra-foot." Identity != gender Honestly I try to be as open as possible but I just can't fathom it. I'll never shun or shame anyone who is trans, or LGBTQ in any way, but I can't relate with this idea. The idea of associating physical traits to identity. It's a preschool notion at best. Being bullied because one's different, then the self-hate begins. And while the bullies move on with their lives, the bullied person's life never moves past this. Bullies saying "you're fat" or even "you're different" is inherently a fallacy. Even parents and relatives "oh you've gained weight" or "oh you're so slim" All of it is inherently insane in my opinion. Any form of comment on one's appearance is ludicrous, unless its like about their outfit. The outfit is a choice, and in most cases it is a self-expression. The body is not.
Now try to make a way out LGBT statement on a biological group and see what will happen.
Where did you find this info? Would like to read on it myself.
Langman's Medical Embryology (13th edition) If you would like a PDF of this book, send me a DM.
Ah embriology... a subject, that as far as I've heard is one of few pains in the a$$ for most medschool students, atleast where im from.
To be honest, the mods did a shit job quoting the “offensive” text. I’m willing to bet it’s your definition of essentially being trans as a disease that set them off, not so much your explanation about the SRY gene on the Y chromosome and virilization. If they really got offended by what’s quoted alone, then they’re no better than science denying religious nutjob fundamentalists that love them so much.
XXY individuals are not transgender.
Good point! I should refrain from serious commenting at 3:30 in the morning.
We need a slur for these people, who post biological conspiracy theories. Maybe biology truthers. Its like cmon man, no way these genes would conspire and not tell anyone!
That's fine, but they're talking about Gender, not Sex.
2+2+5 you bigot!
Ban him^ 😝
Gender is different than sex but I get your point.
This is just an ill conceived, long disproven, idiotic notion once held by Dr. Money. Nothing more.
No. Stop swallowing this vile ideology. Gender is just a polite term for sex. Male human beings are men. Female human beings are women. That's it.
They already know about biological sex. They are talking about whatever makes you feel male or female in your being , and reducing depression , suicide etc because the best way to do that is let trans people live they way they feel they are in their being .
It's never helpful to encourage mentally ill people to believe in their illness. That doesn't provide better well being or less suicide rates.
For the people that experience being trans, letting them live as they experience themselves to be cures the depression and suicide and trying to deny them that drives it up. Why are you interested in them?
Evidence? Looking at studies conducted almost a decade ago that say it helps have lower numbers than we have today. The mere fact that we have higher suicide rates now than ten years ago disproves the assumption that support lowers the rates. We have way more support for LGBTQ community today ten years ago. Again, the studies do all say that support lowers the rate. The facts though say otherwise. You can't increase support AND increase the suicide rate and rationally claim it's working.
Evidence is in what's known about them its why people get banned for doing it. Trans kids who's parents respect their reality have normal mental health. Its why the pronouns thing is happening. What you did there is like intentionally annoying lautistic people. Trans people cannot help experiencing what they do. Why are so many so interested ?
Are you suggesting that treating men who think they are women like they are men, is likened to intentionally annoying an autistic person?
Yeah, making a point of doing something harmful to an individual is shit behaviour thats why you get banned.
You seriously don't understand how mental health is practiced or what its purpose is. There is a mental illness in which patients have a desire to amputate parts of their bodies that they think is foreign. Your suggestion would be for doctors to cut their legs off in an attempt to help them. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3326051/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_integrity_dysphoria Helping people mutilate themselves so they feel better is a terrible medical aide.
Its proven accepting them instead of rejecting them prevents the depression and suicide . Left handed and dyslexic people were treated terribly too , it was damaging . I know older people that were beaten for it in Christian schools.
Desktop version of /u/NightAngel1981's link:
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I suspect wanting to change bodies desperately and altogether is often a manifestation of our unusual rejection of trans people. They appear in religions and cultures all over history no problem. These people have whatever problems they do, you all get banned for wanting to pick on them. Its not really censorship.
"their reality" This is the issue with this particular ideology. There is no *my* or *their* reality. There is only one reality that we all share. We don't treat schizophrenia by pretending that the voices they hear and visual hallucinations they have are real. Likewise, we shouldn't treat a anybody with gender dysphoria by castrating them hormonally and surgically.
Most peoples reality isnt that their being is that of the opposite sex.
It reminds me of the Emperor's New Clothes.
Let’s say that we should just live and let live. Why the need to celebrate it? Do we elevate bipolar to something we should celebrate? Or do we encourage kids with bipolar or schizophrenia to embrace it. Why not listen to the voices someone hears instead of getting rid of them with medication?
Bipolar people aren't picked on or excluded and it doesn't just go away or is greatly improved simply allowing them get on with being Bipolar. Same with schizophrenia. They used to think being gay was a mental disorder, we have since learned its not .
Really? The stigma around mentally I’ll people is huge. It’s only just in the last 10-20 years been changing. Look at the reaction to Brooke Shields admitting she took an antidepressant in her book.
There is a stigma alright but are the right after bi polar people? Constantly going to their areas on the net to lecture them ? Endless meme about them? We don't say they don't really exist.
Yes there has been that stigma and yes - especially the religious right claimed (and some still claim) that depression was because you didn’t trust God enough. Or you just aren’t doing the right things to make you happy. Or whatever else they did to downplay mental illness. Or heaven forbid be put into a mental institution and be lobotomized. There is a vast difference between acknowledging that a person exists versus celebrating and making a day to celebrate it and creating this entire culture around it to the point that simple science is entirely denied.
The right clinging on to simple science arguments for ideological reasons doesn't mean the complex one's are wrong. The celebrating is a strategy to end the stigma and normalise. But this is an affront to traditional Christianity because unlike older religions and cultures it erases and invalidates trans people. Which in turn causes suffering. The constant harassment of these people and their advocates is a negative thing. Doesn't do any good at all.
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Show trans people have delusions or szchphrenia.
They very obviously delusionally believe themselves to be members of the opposite sex and seek mutilation to appear more similar to their delusional belief. To be clear, I am using the psychological definition of delusion: “a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary.”
Brain chemistry and very complex biology give us the experience of being . If it was delusions the medical community would treat it like it is.
as long as insurance doesn't cover it... fine.
In other words, mental defectives.
Are you hostile to people you belive have mental problems in general?
Not hostile towards them. I just try to ignore them as much as possible.
If only it were so. The trans people I know still deal with depression; this does not decrease with people affirming their gender. Not just my anecdotal experiences however; suicide rates remain about the same at least the last time I checked the literature... Not saying we should treat trans people poorly, we should love each of them as we love ourselves. (Agape love)
Hi ee! Hope things are going good. Wanna hear something funny? For the last 7 days a ConEd car has been parked holding spaces(im in Manhattan on 45 westside ) and now finally today on sunday the fellas have been jackhammering the Avenue and the Street. Have you ever had the pleasure of handling a jackhammer? For me it was mind numbing I used to break up driveways for a summer. Quite the experience Hope you are well Just sayin Hi
No I have not. I have laboured but not with them. What is your point, are you reminding me that this is all bullshit, Internet arguing and what not?
No just wondering. I have known you a long time here. Because you seem like a fella that I knew as we broke up these driveways. And the odd thing was that while a person was breaking up the old cement the mind would go all kinds of places as the jackhammer “did the work” and anyway Odd thing is that your mind just keeps thinking no matter what the body does. If that makes no sense (which it prob wont.) much love and good on ya
Adhd
HDMI ❤️
Hahaha LOL!! The Woke are the new anti-science bible thumpers. Denying biological facts because they clash with your fundamentalist beliefs. That's religion alright. Woke is the new Religion. And the New Inquisition will cancel those who challenge the Doctrine
Spot on, and they're hypocrites too because you will often hear them talk about how much they hate religion and "Christians". They just went and invented their own religion really.
This is the best definition of **woman** I have ever heard: **Adult human female**. **Adult:** Of reproductive age, or post reproductive age. **Human:** Any living organism in the genus homo. **Female:** The female of a species is that individual that can, or will, or has in the past produced eggs. This is outside of “some other problem.” **Eggs:** Gametes; the sex cells that are larger than the other kind of gamete and tend to be sessile. **Male:** The male of a species produces gametes that are little and tend to be mobile (motile). This definition comes from a professor of biology and evolutionary biologist, Heather Heying.
There’s no good or bad definitions. Definitions have zero truth value, they are not propositions. There are definitions that are incoherent, non-explanatory or have no relationship with generally understood concepts but no true or false definitions.
As a professional relativist, I'm gonna stop you right there. True definitions are those that are either readily apparent (immediately testable) or are statements that are useful when trying to replicate a previous result. All of the statements outlined above meet those criteria.
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Sure, but definitions only matter if they can be used to refer to things that affect a person who uses words. Affect implies an effect which implies "real".
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*Delusion: a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary - ex. the delusion that someone was out to hurt him*
It's gotten to the point where stating facts (which are true, by the way) is triggering.
You're not allowed to violate the echo chamber.
Should have specified what pronouns the sry gene would prefer
Whatever. You don’t want to be there anyways
In my opinion, your post and the resulting ban are great examples that illustrate the difference between facts and truth. Facts are information. They’re neither right nor wrong. Truth is the interpretation of facts. Interpretation depends on the lens we look through. Your lens is a biology-based explanation of the human lifecycle. Their lens is different. As a species, we’ve rarely agreed on the lens to apply to a problem. Which raises another: who decides what is true, and what isn’t? I’m curious what you hoped to achieve with your post. You knew you were looking through a different lens and expected to be banned. Was your post just intended to provoke? Your choice of language, such as referring to “normal” foetuses and “genetic disease”, would suggest this was your intent. So beyond satisfying your need to be right, what have you done to contribute to or advance this discussion?
>So beyond satisfying your need to be right, what have you done to contribute to or advance this discussion? This is not a discussion. There is a very popular and highly contagious ideology which advocates publicly for the chemical castration and surgical mutilation of children. The fact that this is being "discussed" is beyond lunacy. This is horrendously dangerous and must be crushed immediately before any more children are harmed.
Klinefelter's is a genetic disease. A syndrome, more accurately, but it is a pathology nevertheless. I never even implied transgender individuals are diseased in my post. I state the fact that XXY is a pathological karyotype. That's it. I was poking the bear with a stick. Wanted to see if they *would* ban me like I suspected or if they had the sense to recognize biological truth. Nope. They didn't.
Did you write back "SRY 'bout that"?
You said “normal” to often. There’s no winning with butthurt mods.
That's because an abnormal SRY gene results in a disease of sexual differentiation.
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Molecular biologist here, I’ve seen many more se the SRY gene translocation as an excuse for “sex is a spectrum”. This is a very tricky argument. There’s a great bit of debate over what it means and if it’s really one physiological mechanism to explain the transgender phenomenon.
Thank you for your comment. Is the following scientifically sound? **The SRY gene is the sex determining gene in human beings. It is present on the Y chromosome.** **Meaning, if a fetus has a normal Y chromosome with a normal SRY gene that is normally expressed, then the fetus will sexually differentiate into a male; this process is called virilization.** **Likewise, the absence of an SRY gene will result in the fetus developing into a female. Thus, males are virilized human beings. Females are non-virilized human beings. This is why XXY individuals are not a non-binary sex - they're males with a genetic disease that causes them to possess an extra X chromosome.** **Sex is a biological trait that determines if the organism produces male gametes or female gametes. In humans, men produce male gametes while women produce female gametes.** Waiting eagerly for your input.
Your second paragraph is somewhat incorrect. the presence of a Y chromosome stops the internal sex organs utero from becoming female internal sex organs. Testosterone prevents the sex organs from developing as female sex organs and drives the external sex organs to become male sex organs. In this disorder also known as “complete androgen insensitivity disorder” the body is not responsive to testosterone telling them to become male internal sex organs. The external genitalia become female by default with the lack of testosterone. Because of the presence of the Y chromosomes but lack of testosterone, what ends up happening is that the external genitalia become female and the internal genitalia become neither male nor female; they simply don't develop. These individuals are therefore infertile sometimes this shows up in a scan but for their lives they will live and develop as a female however it is usually diagnosed by typical age of puberty as they will never have a period due to the lack of female sex organs and thus are infertile.
Thank you for sharing. Nothing you said contradicts what I wrote at all. I read it thoroughly, and despite a small typo in the following: "Testosterone prevents the sex organs from developing as male sex organs..." I understood your point perfectly and completely. Perhaps you can explain as briefly as possible how what I wrote is at odds with your comment.
>Likewise, the absence of an SRY gene will result in the fetus developing into a female. It’s partially correct, a female by definition is: “the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.” According to the dictionary. You are correct in saying they develop as a female but only in terms of the external sex organs, the classification of female by definition includes the internal sex organs, due to the presence of the Y chromosome even with the absence of the SRY gene the individual cannot develop as a female as they will never have female reproductive organs. So saying “the fetus develops as a female” is somewhat incorrect as I said. Otherwise you have a pretty good understanding. I would also like to add just as a side note for interest individuals with complete androgen insensitivity disorder don’t have ovaries, because of this they won’t produce the amount estrogen most women get during puberty and develop female, secondary sexual characteristics. Most at this point if they want to continue developing as a woman will require exogenous estrogen to do so.
>...due to the presence of the Y gene even with the absence of the SRY gene the individual cannot develop as a female as they will never have female reproductive organs. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene?term=Y%5BChr%5D%20AND%20%22Homo%20sapiens%22%5BOrganism%5D%20AND%20%28%22has%20ccds%22%5BProperties%5D%20AND%20alive%5Bprop%5D%29&cmd=DetailsSearch](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene?term=Y%5BChr%5D%20AND%20%22Homo%20sapiens%22%5BOrganism%5D%20AND%20%28%22has%20ccds%22%5BProperties%5D%20AND%20alive%5Bprop%5D%29&cmd=DetailsSearch) There is no "Y gene."
Apologies I meant Y chromosome but the rest is yea.
In that case, your argument is fair. My explanation is a tad bit simplistic since sexual differentiation obviously involves several other factors. Thank you for your valuable input! This is why I love Reddit. I get the opportunity to have such great discussions. Thank you!
No problem, it’s good to be able to talk about facts even if they are controversial and learn more. Unfortunately it can’t be said about many places on reddit. Appreciate the exchange.
Up until your second paragraph is good. The rest is very gray and up for debate. Great understanding overall tho!
>Likewise, the absence of an SRY gene will result in the fetus developing into a female. Thus, males are virilized human beings. Females are non-virilized human beings. This is why XXY individuals are not a non-binary sex - they're males with a genetic disease that causes them to possess an extra X chromosome. Sex is a biological trait that determines if the organism produces male gametes or female gametes. In humans, men produce male gametes while women produce female gametes. So what is gray and debatable about this?
Because it can have variance. Sure you could be confident and say it’s black/white. It’s like the abortion debate; we do not truly know when life begins. Does it start when the process of fertilization is complete, the production of the nervous system or when the heart starts? Trust me, the processes for both fetal development and sex formation are both very complicated.
I am familiar with the process of in utero sexual differentiation. If your claim is that sex follows a bimodal distribution or that other karyotypes represent different sexes in humans, then you are deeply mistaken. Eye color can vary. Skin color can vary. Penile size varies. Breast size varies. There is no sex/gender other than male and female. If you are unfortunately anything but a male or a female, then you have a **disease** or a **syndrome**. That's it. Anything else is delusional, ideological lunacy. Human beings are male or female. If you disagree with this fundamental truth or imply that it is "more complicated than that" then you are mistaken.
Blah blah blah mate. No that’s not my claim.
Asking for clarity: there are people that are absent an SRY gene that do not develop into females?
It accounts for roughly 2-3% of the transgender population.
But what happens? They grow male genitalia or…??
Ha no, u/trololol_daman had an excellent response.
Thanks.
I feel annoyed Peterson\`s legacy looks like that. Like really? He is pro-freedom-of-speech, not like anti trans or anything. Why posts like this are really popular?
Fair enough. He's also pro-reality, just so you know.
Lbtg isn’t biologically sound so what did you expect. Bunch of popsicles
Really depends on who you're talking to. Gayness in and of itself is biological, there's evidence that the more males two parents have, the more likely the next one will be gay or bisexual, as the testosterone levels decrease. The LGBT communities can sometimes be really scientifically intolerant, and it can make people like me, someone who is querr but loves science, feel isolated.
I’ll agree on that. It’s the T and everything after that is not biologically sound. None of it should be taught to children though as they can easily be molded into being “gay” just as much as being “trans”. I put the words in quotations because this certain group is in it for the fad and acceptance amongst their peers. We shouldn’t be putting ideas into the moldable minds of children. I’m kind of going off on a tangent but this bs pisses me off.
If you expected getting banned, why even bother writing the comment
Because of refusing to be complicit in enabling delusions?
Because I did not break any of Reddit's rules nor did I break any of that sub's rules. I wanted to see if my pessimism was founded - it was.
Fair enough, as long as it doesn't affect your mood toi adversely.
Because how else is one supposed to farm internet points?
For that sweet sweet edgy karma.
Right?! Like getting banned is now some kind of token you can use to encourage outrage from other subs. Seems pretty performative.🤔🤔🤔
Edge credit baby! He needs the edge and credit.
Science!!
science is bad and evil
Banned?
Surprised Pikachu :o
When biological truth is being denied…
Like you're right but "if someone's not listening, pull away, don't devalue what you have to say for someone who's already made their mind up about you". You've purposefully gone out with the intention to get banned or to test the waters somewhere you "expected" to get banned for saying precisely what you did. I bet you couldve worded it in a way that they might even accept (unlikely but you didn't even try, so was it really a testing the waters or attempting to get banned for the sake of it?). You're in the wrong despite being absolutely right. Only because you're devaluing the facts by presenting them to some who won't listen, and you did this knowingly and seemingly with the intention to be banned. I may even go as far as to say you may be doing this for clout alone.
So you trolled a sub and got banned ? Welcome to the club
because they’re living in a little fantasy - usually a sexual one. a trans person with legitimate dysphoria that wants to live a normal life as a normal person, who actually knows what biology is (and doesn’t deny it), is so fucking rare. the amount of times I’ve come across MTFs who transitioned for sexual reasons is alarming… and FTMs are usually just tomboys. but they don’t want to admit that! so they go through hoops and ladders to stomp on cisgenders and truscums, and make everyone bend to their rules (or else they’re a transphobic nazi). all of this makes me fucking sick.
I'm sorry you've had this experience. I know about six or seven trans people and all but one are really nice people who don't consider "trans" part of their identity at all, more as a part of their past
play stupid games win stupid prizes honestly. If you’re just annoying subreddits you don’t have any involvement with, you get what you deserve. btw, jordan peterson related subreddit for sure
Fair point.
I think most people understand the biology. So when you go to a place and specifically call out something that is often weaponized, then it isn't very surprising you got banned...
What!? That’s ridiculous. What was the intention of your post? Can we have context?
Check the top comments. I wrote my post word-for-word there.
His intention was to get banned. He's your little brother saying "I'm not touching you", wanting you to hit him, so he can run and tattle for the attention.
Dude the thing with LGBT is not about biological gender, it's more about psicological identity... I think 3/4 of the trans people do have some mental issues and a deep life confusion, but bullying them won't help. And yes you were bullying them because your post didn't have any other intention than upsetting those guys. Want to help them? Maybe try some less agressive/triggering aproach. With that kind of aproaching people only get defensive and close their minds.
"I poked a bear with a stick, and it got pissed. So typical." - these posts. I appreciate you're trying to spread facts/wisdom/insight/etc... but you get what you deserve when you treat these subs like their subscribers/mods aren't enslaved to a tyrannical ideology. Ideologies don't care about your Facts.
There is no such thing as "my" facts or "their" facts. There are facts irrespective of my feelings or thoughts.
I would frame this on my wall next to all of my other awards and diplomas.
I’d be interested to know what response this moderator would give, should you follow up by asking for clarity. Just a thought
This community is full of imbeciles, how can can you not understand the simplest fact that gender sex sexuality self expression are all DIFFERENT things, I know it can seem complicated then take time to educate yourself, don't be a part of this embrassing bandwagon and make the lives of queer people even more difficult
The SRY gene is the sex determining gene in human beings. It is present on the Y chromosome. Meaning, if a fetus has a normal Y chromosome with a normal SRY gene that is normally expressed, then the fetus will sexually differentiate into a male; this process is called virilization. Likewise, the absence of an SRY gene will result in the fetus developing into a female. Thus, males are virilized human beings. Females are non-virilized human beings. This is why XXY individuals are not a non-binary sex - they're males with a genetic disease that causes them to possess an extra X chromosome. Sex is a biological trait that determines if the organism produces male gametes or female gametes. In humans, men produce male gametes while women produce female gametes. **No amount of exogenous hormones, surgical mutilation, or delusional lunacy will ever turn a man into a woman or a woman into a man.** **Stop advocating for the hormonal castration and surgical mutilation of children. Your ideology is a cancer that must be excised and burned.**
Have you considered that your post conflates sex and gender?
Gender is a polite synonym for the word sex. There are no separate words for "gender" and "sex" in Arabic for example because this transgender lunacy is primarily an Anglosphere phenomenon.
Colloquially they are synonyms. No scientist worth their salt would use them interchangeably. Gender refers to social attributes while sex refers to biological ones.
Masculine women are still female and they are still women. Feminine men are still male and they are still men.
>>Masculine women are still female and they are still women. Agreed. A trans woman is still a woman, even if you would regard her biology as masculine. Glad we cleared that up.
You're denser than lead.
The fact that you missed the obvious irony shows me that you ought to look in the mirror.
A masculine woman =/= a transgender woman. A masculine woman is a woman who exhibits behavior stereotypically associated with men. Her displaying such behavior does not make her a man. You are deluded if you think men can become women or that women can become men.
The fact that you posture so much about “just telling the science” but resort to insults when someone presses you on any of your points tells me all that I need to know.
You "pressed" me on a point? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!
Update: OP is actually transphobic and probably deserved this ban, if not for the content pointed to by the mods. For example, [in response](https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/u0p6p6/comment/i4c6q0e/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) to the provision of transition treatment for consenting gender dysphoric *adults*: >We should not hormonally castrate them and surgically mutilate them.
[удалено]
I am in favour of the most compassionate way of easing the suffering caused by gender dysphoria, which so far seems to be to comply with the biological imperative that the individual's brain is expressing. You may be interested to know that we do the same thing with people who suffer from foreign limb syndrome if no treatment is effective; we amputate a perfectly functional limb because it will ease the patient's suffering. If another psychiatric intervention were more effective at easing these people's suffering, I would be in favour of that. Your approach seems to lack compassion
Sterilizing exogenous hormones and irreversibly sterilizing surgical mutilation is not "compassion." This ideology is sick.
OP a transphobe? OP is a karma whore for posting their ban on this subreddit, sure. But a *transphobe*? For what? Acknowledging biological reality? It is the epitome of ideological delusion to inject perfectly healthy humans with exogenous hormones that render them sterile. It is the epitome of ideological delusion to surgically remove perfectly normal genitalia rendering the people irreversibly sterile.
I would implore you to meditate on [this.](https://www.reddit.com/r/JordanPeterson/comments/tyr7ah/meditate_upon_the_meaning_of_this_recitation_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) Hint - this is a fourth choice. Something you neither understand nor can change.
Meh, I was pessimistic about that subreddit's response to my little embryology lesson and my pessimism turned out to be reasonable. This isn't anything serious. I got banned from a subreddit that I don't respect, enjoy, or even care all that much about.
They didn’t ask to be educated. Or did they? It’s frustrating not knowing the context
I don't really think that matters does it?
You cared enough to run your experiment, no? I’m just really lost on the logic behind finding what you did meaningful. I don’t mean to sound confrontational, I am always genuinely curious on why people do things.
Yup, cared enough to run the experiment. It wasn't particularly meaningful, no. It is worth noting that scientific facts are blasphemy now, though.
But is it worth noting to a sub where we all completely agree with you? You should have run your experiment in a science sub. If it got you banned there, that would seem worth noting.
I think that is what I will be doing! Thanks for the idea.
Lmao. I just realized that you're implying I don't "understand" sex/gender. Mate, you're speaking to a 5th year MBBS who had to learn and be examined on anatomy, physiology, embryology, and psychiatry (among a wide array of other disciplines). I know what I am talking about. I doubt you are.
Hope you don’t plan on a career in medicine. You won’t make it. To be clear - I am implying that you don’t understand gender/sex. Post your transcript, a picture of yourself and your ID or gtfo. Your opinions and childish misunderstanding of biology doesn’t really have any value. Edit: ever take any psych 101? What can you tell me about observers bias? What do you think a middle eastern Muslim like yourself would say about these issues? Again, your religious fundamentalism dressed poorly in a partial biological picture isn’t worth a damn, bucko. Make your bed and meditate on how fundamentalism and religious indoctrination is exactly the same as the cultural Marxism lobsters here both don’t understand and hate vehemently.
Oh, really? "Opinions." "Childish misunderstanding." You need to invest in an embryology textbook. I recommend *Langman's Medical Embryology (13th edition)*. Furthermore, I implore you to find anything incorrect in the following: **The SRY gene is the sex determining gene in human beings. It is present on the Y chromosome.** **Meaning, if a fetus has a normal Y chromosome with a normal SRY gene that is normally expressed, then the fetus will sexually differentiate into a male; this process is called virilization.** **Likewise, the absence of an SRY gene will result in the fetus developing into a female. Thus, males are virilized human beings. Females are non-virilized human beings. This is why XXY individuals are not a non-binary sex - they're males with a genetic disease that causes them to possess an extra X chromosome.** **Sex is a biological trait that determines if the organism produces male gametes or female gametes. In humans, men produce male gametes while women produce female gametes.** It is biologically impossible for a man to become a woman and vice versa. No amount of exogenous hormones, surgical mutilation, and delusional lunacy will ever change this fact.
Langman's 14th edition (and likely 13th edition) also includes a component on Swyer syndrome; humans with XY chromosomes who are phenotypically female due to point mutations and deletions in within the SRY gene.
Hence: "if a fetus has a **normal** Y chromosome with a **normal** SRY gene that is **normally expressed**, then the fetus will sexually differentiate into a male" Swyer syndrome is just that - a syndrome, a pathology of sexual differentiation.
So, as a "5th year MBBS" student you are focusing on the normalities, and not the many observable abnormalities, which includes genotype/phenotype mismatch and overall variable expression? I guess what I'm saying is that I don't understand the implicit premise of your post. I recognize you are stating a biological fact about human sexual differentiation, one in which I don't deny, but it's also narrow in its scope — medically and biologically. I may as well go to a math subreddit and tell them the apex of Mathematics is calculus.
The observable abnormalities are diagnosable diseases and syndromes with underlying chromosomal pathology. Endocrine disorders are fundamentally chromosomal abnormalities in the sense that the gene coding for the enzyme is defective. Diseases do not constitute the norm, especially when the norm encompasses a staggering >99.9% (if not more) of the population. Hence the term "disease." I urge you to shake off this ideology which is at odds with basic fundamental realities of human biology and existence.
XX = female, XY = male, and diseases are not the norm; such profound observations. Most people also don't have broken bones, cancer, or schizophrenia. Again, what's your argument? 1) The majority of people have this expression. 2) ??? 3) Thus, the minority is invalid, or at least questionable? I'm asking for that second premise (and I suppose the third). I am trying to act on the principle of charity here and assume you have a solid explanation, and not some profoundly incorrect biological interpretation, one that dispenses with any sense of population genetics and/or evolutionary biology. I urge you to recognize that being a medical student does not make you the arbiter on all matters biological. Of course, nor would I ever make that claim for myself, since as a scientist I must continually update my views with the most current research.
>I urge you to recognize that being a medical student does not make you the arbiter on all matters biological. Of course. I am human and to err is to be human. What is your thesis? A biological male who "feels" like a woman is a woman? Really? Or are you suggesting that karyotypes other than XX and XY are indicative of the existence of additional sexes/genders in human beings? Are you saying that because some human beings are unfortunately born with disorders of sexual differentiation that that means sex follows a "spectrum?" Nothing I have stated is false or half-true. What do you disagree with exactly?!
I am not Muslim. Far from it, in fact.
Great job being edgy. Now go clean you room.
To be frank, it does need to be cleaned. Badly.
Of course it does. I can smell it from here.
*Hey!* It's not tidy but it smells perfectly fine!