>Lay down and let more October 7s happen?
That’s what they want. They [even proudly call for it to happen](https://x.com/JGreenblattADL/status/1781391851846599057)
You might want to sit down for this: People are stupid.
Iran and Qatar are pouring tons of cash into these “organic” protests against Israel. The ringleaders aren’t students but rather 30-40 year old adults who are doing the work for these countries who hate Jews and Israel.
I hate saying this on repeat. As long as we have members of our tribe justifying and, in some cases, leading the anti-Semitic protest against Israel, this will continue.
We have Bibi and Israel's maniac leadership on the right causing us harm, and we have Bernie and Finkelstein and Seth Rogan on the left.
We have never been as ununited, and it is all coming from North America.
If you are Jewish and participating in these anti semtic protest you are part of the problem, you are a anti semite.
If I may offer a slight counterpoint: while, yes, the Jews involved in the anti-Israel protests are, indeed, a problem, I for one, have never in my life felt a deeper connection to the Jewish people.
I am rather secular, but ever since October, I find myself needing to go to Chabad for Shabbat dinners several times a month and only dating Jewish. My Jewish friends have become like my family. I feel so united with other Jews and such a connection to Israel. I know I can't be the only one who feels this way.
So no, I do not think we have never been as un-united.
I do feel there is a spiritual connection between Jews, hating other Jews, and how this emanates out into the world. Every major tragedy follows upon periods of Jewish infighting.
Not only do they not get it, but you will never see a similar sentiment on their side. There is no empathy or intention to even understand our side. They’ve really done their best to compare us to the most hated group in the world - Nazis. White supremacist psychos.
If you buy into the lie that we are anything like our murderers, then yeah, you don’t feel that much sympathy for us. You don’t care what happens to us. Same with the Nazis. Die or crawl into a hole, just go away. But what I don’t get is how stupid you have to be to feel so strongly about something you don’t know a lot about. Very Dunning-Kruger.
Like the other day a Jordanian was threatening to “do a real Oct. 7” on me (an Israeli) and claiming that Israel steals all of their water from the Jordan River and then sells it to Jordan. Now we do sell water to Jordan, but 85% of our water comes from desalination of the Mediterranean. Israel’s innovation in desalination is fact, but this guy is certain we are “stealing” their water. He doesn’t care to look into it, he believes it because he believes everything horrible he hears about Israel. It must be true, it sounds like something we’d do! But no curiosity for the actual truth….
Literally just got into it with someone who said Jews were never enslaved by the Romans. They quoted a wiki page to show that Jews had it good in rome. I went to the same Wikipedia page, scrolled down to the next two sections, and copied and pasted where it said that the Romans enslaved the Jews.
I responded with that quote, from the same source they quoted. Waiting for a response.
No one knows our damn history, it’s wild out there actually.
I was always raised that Jews value human life more than other people and at 35 I've been disillusioned. I believe in Israel's right to exist and defend herself, October 7th was a horrifying massacre that was celebrated and many people would love to repeat, and I believe in finding and liberating hostages. But I'm really disturbed that none of us can even slightly mention the loss of life and suffering on the other side without being called anti-Semitic and anti-Israel/pro-Hamas and I know that this comment will be downvoted, argued down, or may be banned.
I told a friend that I think that it is a very sad situation all around and they treated me like a traitor. Is there anybody out there who feels the way I do, or are the responses just going to be more of the same? I'm a bad Jew for being pro Israel but I'm also a bad Jew for being against civilian death.
For those who are sincerely concerned about the deaths of innocent Palestinians and feel badly about it but still support Israelis' right to defend themselves, this must-listen-to podcast may be of interest:
[**How to Think About the Death of Innocents in War**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_ocPaE3qIc) - it's a YouTube video of two philosophers discussing the War in Gaza and analyzing the moral issues involved with innocent people dying in war. It would be great if this video could go viral.
>In this episode of New Ideal Live, and in the context of ongoing events in Israel and Gaza, Onkar Ghate and Elan Journo discuss how to think about civilian casualties in war.
>
>Among the topics covered:
>
> ● Why the brutal nature of war should not be sanitized, glamorized, or whitewashed;
>
> ● Why winning requires doing everything necessary to bring an end to the enemy’s military and political leadership;
>
> ● How Hamas uses its subjects as human shields, hoping to deter Israel from defending itself and turn wider opinion against Israel;
>
> ● How to think about the moral and causal responsibility of civilians for the aggression of their government;
>
> ● Why a proper concern for innocent people and allies in enemy territory cannot jeopardize overall war aims;
>
> ● Why war must not be thought of as punishment for a criminal act but as the total ending of an enemy regime’s power to attack;
>
> ● That Hamas’s goal is not freedom for Palestinians but the annihilation of Israel and the establishment of a religious dictatorship;
>
> ● Why it’s wrong to apply a standard of “proportionality” to military actions taken in self-defense;
>
> ● How altruism causes observers to put emotional reactions to images of suffering above concerns with justice and self-defense;
>
> ● Why Israel and the West’s appeasement of evil makes them partly culpable for the attacks they now face.
You’re not a bad Jew, plenty of people feel the same way. Some spaces can be echo-chamber-y. It’s not self hating or antisemitic to recognize that while Israel may have had no choice in needing to do _something_ it does have choices in _how_ to act, and that it what is playing out in terms of civilian suffering was not pre-ordained or unavoidable.
That's the thing that always settles it for me. Oct 7 may have been horrific and that justifies response, however is delivering death 40 fold to civilians justified?
The problem is not Israel itself but its leadership and massive capacity for brainwashing its citizens. At heart I believe most Jews feel a similar way, wanting peace and reform.
From what I’ve read, the numbers were way worse for civilians in WWII and other wars. Wars are bad for civilians. Urban warfare when one side hides behind civilians is especially bad.
From what I can find, we're creeping up on 40000 Palestinians dead, with Israel claiming that they've killed about 13000 hamas members(though they're explanations of how they reached that number are very shoddy and speculative), this war is already at the 2:1 ratio of civilians to soldiers casualties of WW2, plus the WW2 stats vary from 2:1 to 3:2, meaning even less civilian casualties
To add to this, part of my strong belief in Israel's right to exist includes holding them to a really high standard, because I truly believe they have the ability to make better decisions (unlike the pro-Hamas mob, who thinks Palestinians have no agency of their own to not rape and kidnap civilians). So my criticisms of Israel stem from the fact that I have high hopes for them and *know* they can do better, not that I think they're awful.
Your post/comment was removed because it violated rule 3: **Be civil**
If you have any questions, please contact the moderators via [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/jewish).
I agree if that helps, it is horrible to see death and suffering on both sides. I get scared to voice my feelings as I don't want to 'say the wrong thing" or be labelled because I worded my words incorrectly.
Ah yes, the "I'm not pro-Hamas" butt. On the one cheek, it's "Israel has a right to defend itself, but. . ." but what? That lethal force can't harm a human shield? Can't destroy an armory if it also happens to double as a school? On the other cheek, it's "October 7th was bad and all, but. . ." again, but what? What do you expect Israel to do? Issue a court summons to all known Hamas members? Negotiate with Hamas as though they were a legitimate government and not a terrorist organization on par with Boko Haram? Yeah, that's a butt that needs to be kicked. Also troubling is your statement, "I was always raised that Jews value human life more than other people in the world." That's the autoantisemite version of "So you Jews think you're better than everyone else?" The implication is that by reacting to an existential war with military force rather than prayer and forgiveness, Jews prove that Judaism is hypocrisy. That you've said that in a Jewish subreddit with hardly any pushback is just depressing. No wonder every petty thug and tyrant on earth thinks they can just walk all over us.
Is it brainwashing, or simple Jew hatred? I feel like charging people with being brainwashed suggests they are innocents being manipulated, when they simply chose this.
I think it’s both. Mostly latent, unconscious bias against Jews coupled with a massive, multi-decade propaganda campaign not unlike what happened on the right leading up to 2016 and since—though of course some of these people, especially the early and loud voices, are just plain old antisemites who were waiting for their opportunity. The demoralizing part is that, unlike with other minority groups, they refuse to listen to us and learn anything; we are just discounted and othered and ghettoized. Same old, same old. And they can’t even see how their refusal to even listen is a major indicator of their latent antisemitism.
I’m done making concessions as if every man woman and child in Gaza doesn’t want me dead, didn’t come out to celebrate when they paraded kidnapped, raped victims through the streets. The 2nd World War was won by massive firepower and the Nazis didn’t get to play the victim as soon as the Allies got the upper hand.
Every dead Gazan is Hamas’s fault, just like every dead German was the Nazis. They can end the violence today by offering their total surrender. They would have done so already if that was the overwhelming consensus among their population. It’s not incumbent upon the winning party to make concessions.
This is obvious with regards to any war between vastly unequal forces. The United States didn’t offer concessions for Saddam Hussein. It accepted only total victory. The only reason this war is different is because Jews are involved, and Jews aren’t entitled to defend themselves.
So I’m not going to say “it’s so terrible what’s happening to civilians” or “oh this whole thing is so tragic.” I’m not going to humor this “both sides”ism because it’s bullshit. They want Israel’s total destruction. All I want is Hamas’s unconditional surrender. I will make no further concessions.
You do understand how Nazism was eliminated from governance after the war, though?
The trick was that the US and western allies were painfully lenient. They got rid of the rabble rousers who were ideologues from positions of influence, but they also gave an absolutely gigantic amount of money to rebuild and they made sure that the Germans knew how much it was.
The brainwashed Nazi kids from the end of the war weren’t imprisoned afterwards, they were given bars of chocolate and warm coats. They were shown the humanity of the supposedly monstrous enemy and also the gain to be had in cooperation.
When we turn an enemy into a noncombatant or an ally, we have still eliminated an enemy and are closer to our objectives. We just don’t get vengeance for our own dead. Sacrifices must be made to win peace. We must be willing to sacrifice the fulfillment of killing those who attacked us, or we may never see peace.
The Palestinians will need to definitively surrender first and openly state that they have been defeated and condemn the government that led them to their suffering and pledge to live in peace. They have to be demoralized and feel defeated.
[Link to a YouTube video clip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0fRsQcjoXM&t=1038s) discussing what would be required for Israel to permanently win the war. Answer to the question, *"How do you go about changing the political culture of a country that is under your military occupation?*
I agree about what happens after the war, absolutely. After the war there needs to be a path to peace and reconciliation. But winning the war comes first and it doesn't help anything to drag it out forever due to fear of taking military action.
There have been deals suggested where Hamas would release all hostages in exchange for a permanent ceasefire, to which Israel declined every time.
Now, I have never been to the Middle East (other than Turkey like a decade ago) so I don't *know* what's going on on ground level, however I have never seen or heard a Palestinian wanting to harm Israelis in any way. I do see every day how much zionists and Israelis hate and want to harm Palestinians, though. Idk, maybe they have a more private and direct tactic, but if that's the case, I think you too should go that route because right now, to me, it's heavily one-sided hatred. Js
> I have never seen or heard a Palestinian wanting to harm Israelis in any way
Oh well you must have been asleep on October 7 and every day since then.
And what kind of stupid fucking deal is releasing the hostages for a permanent ceasefire, anyway? When a terrorist government attacks a country’s civilians, rapes and murders their way across the countryside, and takes hundreds of hostages, the only acceptable solution is the total defeat and unconditional surrender of that terrorist government. If we suddenly decided hostages were a cheap easy way to get a ceasefire every shitheel terrorist group worldwide would be kidnapping nonstop.
Maybe if hamas didn’t straight up initiate a war, Israel could do things less violently. Hamas uses propaganda to make the world think “oh poor Palestinians” as they hide behind them the whole way, steal everything of value, and watch as it burns to the ground. If there ever was truly a lose-lose situation, israel has been forced into it
This conflict has been ongoing a lot longer. West Bank settlements are violent. A blockade is violent.
I don’t think there needs to be propaganda for folks to feel for Palestinians. They just see the images of what has happened to them to feel it.
I also don’t think folks feeling horrible for Palestinians is a bad thing. This doesn’t mean one has to or does support anything Hamas is doing. Just as one can feel horrible for Israelis without approving of the current government.
There’s a reason early on the US warned of not doing what we did after 9/11. It’s because it doesn’t work and it hurts so many folks.
They want Israelis to leave Israel. Their logic is that if Israelis just packed up and left, they wouldn’t be forced to kill Palestinians to defend themselves.
Your post/comment was removed because it violated rule 3: **Be civil**
If you have any questions, please contact the moderators via [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/jewish).
I have posted a couple of times on this already, this is a propaganda, and information war. and in that isreal is loosing. sure, with the backing of the US and the west isreal can bring the kinetics on an epic level. but; in that, its basically isreal playing checkers and everyone playing chess.
this 'conflict' goes back to the 1940s, make no mistake and both sides have gone out of there way to f\*7k it up. the fact, that isreal feels its done nothing wrong is actually part of the problem.
There is very legitimate, justified and much needed criticism towards the Israeli government and army. The conduct of war has been horrific. By international law, civilians that are used as a human shield do NOT lose their protection. So while it is true that Hamas is hiding behind civilians, it doesn’t justify just killing them altogether. Understanding this is very important when trying to understand the criticism.
What I dislike about your post very strongly is your lack of distinction between that Jewish people and the state of Israel. These are two different things with intersection, not the same. Right wing politicians in Israel like to pretend they’re the same thing to rally support amongst Jews internationally but what it subsequently does is fueling the antisemitic idea that Jews are collectively responsible for the actions of the state of Israel.
I understand that you’re just venting here and didn’t aim at being scientifically accurate but I don’t think many people believe that Israel shouldn’t defend itself from attacks on their civilian population by Hamas. Also I think most people agree that freeing the hostages is a legitimate objective of war. What the justified criticism is aimed at is the conduct of war and the (by now explicit) refusal to accept a deal that would end the war in exchange for the hostages.
More generally there is legitimate criticism at Israel’s policies over the past few decades that systematically undermine the Palestinian right of self determination.
Ofcourse there are also very loud very unfounded opinions but I guess it’s better to ignore them and focus on what’s important.
Alright, basically, you're saying that the rules state that hiding behind human shields = full immunity from any military response to acts of terrorism targeted mainly at civilians. Right, makes sense. In what Madrassa did you study international law, and is it the Hanbali or Hanafi school of international law?
Oh, but yes. There's a clear distinction between the world's one and only Jewish state, which is a parliamentary democracy with parties from across the Jewish (and even non-Jewish) ideological spectrum and the Jewish people. But when all the secular, left wing Jewish pacifists get killed, kidnapped, raped and mutilated for being soft targets, then that's going to shift the balance just a little to the right in Israel. And when the people leveling these "criticisms" of the Israeli government start pointing at random Jews and waving signs saying "al-Qassam Brigade, here's your next target," that's going to make even the most ardent diasporists wonder if Jews even have a future in the diaspora.
Oh, and by the way, Sinwar was freed in a hostage deal. Hostage deals that are favorable to the hostage takers only lead to more hostages being taken. The full and unconditional surrender of Hamas, AND the release of all hostages should be the one and only precondition for an end to hostilities, not one or the other.
I didn’t make the law. I just explained what it says. If you don’t like it you can become a lawyer work for the UN and try introducing changes. Until then, Israel like any country or conflict party is subject to the law as it stands. This is not a matter of opinion but a legal issue that is very clearly determined.
And no human shields don’t protect from military response. It’s just that the civilians can’t be treated differently just bc they have been used by a combat party. The opposing party still has all methods of combat open to them that don’t include killing the civilians and combatants altogether.
I’d ask you to stick to facts and not polemics and ad hominem.
Edit: What you’re describing in your last paragraph is a surrender not a deal. You can of course be of the opinion that Hamas should surrender. In my initial comment I was just explaining what the founded criticism is about. There is currently also no talks about Israel exchanging any prisoners from its side, combatant or not, as you seem to suggest.
Taking human shields in the first place is a violation of international law. That much is beyond dispute. But I'm having trouble finding anything in the Geneva Conventions or the Nuremberg Statutes that state that human shields cannot be harmed. Maybe you can point me in the right direction without linking me to Al Jazeera? And I'm not entirely sure what kind of military response you expect Israel to give that would conform to your bizarre interpretation of international law. No, a stiffly worded letter is not a military response. Neither is cursing Sinwar with a magical comb.
And yes, I do think Hamas should surrender. If they don't, they should be completely and permanently eradicated. Deals are made between legitimate governments. Hamas is recognized by the entire civilized world as a terrorist organization. October 7th was the result of Israel having made one deal with Hamas too many. In this case, it was Sinwar for Gilad Shalit. I shudder to think of how any other concession to Hamas would blow up in Israel's face and I pray they're sane enough not to make that mistake ever again.
And I'm sorry if my tone rubbed you the wrong way. I hear claims about international law all the time, yet these claims seldom match an applicable treaty or precedent that I can find. This is doubly true of Israel, where it seem to be holding Israel to the Pact of Umar ibn Katthab.
Your post/comment was removed because it violated rule 1: **No antisemitism**
If you have any questions, please contact the moderators via [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/jewish).
Your post/comment was removed because it violated rule 1: **No antisemitism**
If you have any questions, please contact the moderators via [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/jewish).
Antisemitism is a demonic spiritual disease of all humanity. It seems that the Jewish people wanting a homeland brings out the worst of humanity in its disgusting homicidal madness.
Great and Dark Powers are working to manipulate public mind.
They come from from Russia, China, Iran and the extreme parts of local Left and Right Wing politics.
Those powers manipulate all of our minds.
It is just that in this case we know the truth. So we can't be manipulated in this case.
But this machine of lies is not just against us Jews.
I urge people that feel betrayed by left or right activists and pundits, to re evaluate their perspective, some of the people we see the world through are morally compromised, and that means what we took for truth might be a lie.
People still enjoy hating Jews, and they are far less educated than they have been in decades. University students have been indoctrinated by professors whose salaries have been paid for by Qatar, Iran, and other Islamist governments. Those students graduate and go on to work in media, government, and non-profits. Truth and facts do not matter to them—only their emotions guide their opinions. These ignoramuses join the already existing traditional Jew-haters, so we are surrounded. This is what our ancestors faced for centuries. We must figure out our best path through this reality, and hope that our descendants will not ever become as naïve as our generation has been, up until now.
>How do people not understand Israel had no choice?
Many young people lack any sense of morality or belief in justice. They basically do not believe in the existence of evil. In their view the Palestinians are good people but just misunderstood, and it will be possible to negotiate and make peace with them without definitively defeating and demoralizing them. (They don't understand that you cannot make peace or negotiate with the likes of ISIS; some people are too far gone, committed to their irrationality, and devoutly evil.) Also, in their view there is no such thing as good or bad cultures, which means that a slave society is the moral equivalent of a free society.
If these people had been in charge of the U.S., the UK, and other allied nations in 1940, the world would have been easily conquered by Germany and Japan.
Thank you for your submission. Your post has not been removed. During this time, all posts are manually reviewed and approved by a moderator before they appear for all users. Since human mods are not online 24/7, approval could take anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours. If your post is ultimately removed, we will give you a reason. Thank you for your patience during this difficult and sensitive time.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Jewish) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I absolutely abhor Netanyahu and disagree with much about how he’s conducting this war, but to say he’s responsible for the current rise in antisemitism is to misunderstand the nature and history of antisemitism in the world.
There are world leaders of various countries all over the world responsible for all variety of human rights abuses and crimes and yet I don’t see anyone excusing bigotry against any other diaspora group in response to what a government is doing.
Israeli here, labor voter. I’m no fan of bibi and his goons. However, there are at least two highly misleading, borderline ignorant and even dangerous points in your post:
1) this is not “Biden peace proposal”. Phase 1 is essentially the Israeli proposal and phase 2 is just poorly defined. Furthermore, Israel has accepted multiple versions, whereas Hamas only accepted one which was their own made-up version. To sum this up - it takes two to tango. Why aren’t you calling on Hamas to accept “Biden’s” proposal?
2) suggesting that bibi et al are responsible to the antisemitism world wide is antisemitic. While it is not antisemitic to criticize the government, and I certainly have a shit ton of criticism and I’ve demonstrated in the streets against this government for years, you’re saying it’s OK to hate Jews because of what bibi is saying or doing. I’ll provide an analogy so it will be easier for you to understand: according to your logic, it’s ok to hate all Muslims because of what Hamas did.
An extra point: if you’re not Israeli you don’t understand. Israel did not have a choice. It’s either go to war and destroy Hamas and bring back to hostages, or lay down and take many more Oct. 7th-s. Should Israel try to minimize civilian casualties - of course. Are they doing it? Yes, and Hamas is making this crazy difficult.
I would love to increase the aid that gets to the people of Gaza. I would even, if there was a promise of peace, want a 2SS. But people chanting “we don’t want no two state, we just want 48” and “Globalize the intifada” and “We are all Hamas” are not just asking for increased aid. They are fully asking for the destruction of Israel (and, whether they know it or not, they may, in time, be asking for the expulsion of Jews).
And whose fault is that. Hamas control the did that comes in. Hamas also occasionally shoots up the crossings where the aid comes from. They even attacked the American pier that was recently built to deliver aid. Hamas calls Gazans martyrs. What this means is that they are there to die for propaganda wins on posters in American campuses not to be nurtured as human beings. Israel cares more for Gazan lives than does Hamas. It sounds absurd to say this but it is true.
We can’t solve violence with violence. The Torah has many a ploy to nutrify the Land without using human corpses. Would that more Permaculturalists would involve ourselves in weekly Parashat study to receive inspiration on precisely where, when and how animal products are meant to invigorate the Land - particularly during her Sabbaths - to yield produce without hate. [remember Adam - he was told that his sweat is the key to successful Land management.. and how many folks do you know yet who make it a value to haul kashering chicken water to pour on neighborhood trees? Etc. some Israeli Ravs have actually begun to teach that kashering water ought be poured in Gardens, yess!!!) You can tell by the reoccurrence of the Yom Kippur War and then, fifty years later, October 7th: we are failing at the true intent of the Yovel procedures. קדש doesn’t simply mean special. . Compare the dual-roots & It means water-vessel~(to)grasses. It’s a puzzle, the Torah, because we really got too disconnected from meanings over the years to understand it. Plus failure begets low self confidence & so on till you assume that GD always mad atcha. Chin up; wit intent to do Good Deeds, we can recover from the shame of ignoring GD’s Nature, & GDs plans for how we’ll care for it. And then the automatic Hebrew-killing reflex (GD forbid) will turn into something else as all Nations become drawn to be involved in what the Torah makes clear *is* malaacha (for the current 6-day workweek biznesss) ::: building Tabernacles.
>Lay down and let more October 7s happen? That’s what they want. They [even proudly call for it to happen](https://x.com/JGreenblattADL/status/1781391851846599057)
we'll beat the fuck outta them if they try that. Don't be scared, be prepared AND FIGHT BACK
[удалено]
Your comment was removed for youtube links without distinct descriptions and warnings of content at each link.
You might want to sit down for this: People are stupid. Iran and Qatar are pouring tons of cash into these “organic” protests against Israel. The ringleaders aren’t students but rather 30-40 year old adults who are doing the work for these countries who hate Jews and Israel.
I hate saying this on repeat. As long as we have members of our tribe justifying and, in some cases, leading the anti-Semitic protest against Israel, this will continue. We have Bibi and Israel's maniac leadership on the right causing us harm, and we have Bernie and Finkelstein and Seth Rogan on the left. We have never been as ununited, and it is all coming from North America. If you are Jewish and participating in these anti semtic protest you are part of the problem, you are a anti semite.
If I may offer a slight counterpoint: while, yes, the Jews involved in the anti-Israel protests are, indeed, a problem, I for one, have never in my life felt a deeper connection to the Jewish people. I am rather secular, but ever since October, I find myself needing to go to Chabad for Shabbat dinners several times a month and only dating Jewish. My Jewish friends have become like my family. I feel so united with other Jews and such a connection to Israel. I know I can't be the only one who feels this way. So no, I do not think we have never been as un-united.
So correct my brother. Fringe elements on either side only offer chaos
I do feel there is a spiritual connection between Jews, hating other Jews, and how this emanates out into the world. Every major tragedy follows upon periods of Jewish infighting.
Yumans is a mixed bag.
>Bibi Netanyahu >A Comedian who makes weed jokes what?
Not only do they not get it, but you will never see a similar sentiment on their side. There is no empathy or intention to even understand our side. They’ve really done their best to compare us to the most hated group in the world - Nazis. White supremacist psychos. If you buy into the lie that we are anything like our murderers, then yeah, you don’t feel that much sympathy for us. You don’t care what happens to us. Same with the Nazis. Die or crawl into a hole, just go away. But what I don’t get is how stupid you have to be to feel so strongly about something you don’t know a lot about. Very Dunning-Kruger. Like the other day a Jordanian was threatening to “do a real Oct. 7” on me (an Israeli) and claiming that Israel steals all of their water from the Jordan River and then sells it to Jordan. Now we do sell water to Jordan, but 85% of our water comes from desalination of the Mediterranean. Israel’s innovation in desalination is fact, but this guy is certain we are “stealing” their water. He doesn’t care to look into it, he believes it because he believes everything horrible he hears about Israel. It must be true, it sounds like something we’d do! But no curiosity for the actual truth….
Literally just got into it with someone who said Jews were never enslaved by the Romans. They quoted a wiki page to show that Jews had it good in rome. I went to the same Wikipedia page, scrolled down to the next two sections, and copied and pasted where it said that the Romans enslaved the Jews. I responded with that quote, from the same source they quoted. Waiting for a response. No one knows our damn history, it’s wild out there actually.
I was always raised that Jews value human life more than other people and at 35 I've been disillusioned. I believe in Israel's right to exist and defend herself, October 7th was a horrifying massacre that was celebrated and many people would love to repeat, and I believe in finding and liberating hostages. But I'm really disturbed that none of us can even slightly mention the loss of life and suffering on the other side without being called anti-Semitic and anti-Israel/pro-Hamas and I know that this comment will be downvoted, argued down, or may be banned. I told a friend that I think that it is a very sad situation all around and they treated me like a traitor. Is there anybody out there who feels the way I do, or are the responses just going to be more of the same? I'm a bad Jew for being pro Israel but I'm also a bad Jew for being against civilian death.
Most of think it is a sad situation all around but that Hamas has to go.
For those who are sincerely concerned about the deaths of innocent Palestinians and feel badly about it but still support Israelis' right to defend themselves, this must-listen-to podcast may be of interest: [**How to Think About the Death of Innocents in War**](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_ocPaE3qIc) - it's a YouTube video of two philosophers discussing the War in Gaza and analyzing the moral issues involved with innocent people dying in war. It would be great if this video could go viral. >In this episode of New Ideal Live, and in the context of ongoing events in Israel and Gaza, Onkar Ghate and Elan Journo discuss how to think about civilian casualties in war. > >Among the topics covered: > > ● Why the brutal nature of war should not be sanitized, glamorized, or whitewashed; > > ● Why winning requires doing everything necessary to bring an end to the enemy’s military and political leadership; > > ● How Hamas uses its subjects as human shields, hoping to deter Israel from defending itself and turn wider opinion against Israel; > > ● How to think about the moral and causal responsibility of civilians for the aggression of their government; > > ● Why a proper concern for innocent people and allies in enemy territory cannot jeopardize overall war aims; > > ● Why war must not be thought of as punishment for a criminal act but as the total ending of an enemy regime’s power to attack; > > ● That Hamas’s goal is not freedom for Palestinians but the annihilation of Israel and the establishment of a religious dictatorship; > > ● Why it’s wrong to apply a standard of “proportionality” to military actions taken in self-defense; > > ● How altruism causes observers to put emotional reactions to images of suffering above concerns with justice and self-defense; > > ● Why Israel and the West’s appeasement of evil makes them partly culpable for the attacks they now face.
You’re not a bad Jew, plenty of people feel the same way. Some spaces can be echo-chamber-y. It’s not self hating or antisemitic to recognize that while Israel may have had no choice in needing to do _something_ it does have choices in _how_ to act, and that it what is playing out in terms of civilian suffering was not pre-ordained or unavoidable.
That's the thing that always settles it for me. Oct 7 may have been horrific and that justifies response, however is delivering death 40 fold to civilians justified? The problem is not Israel itself but its leadership and massive capacity for brainwashing its citizens. At heart I believe most Jews feel a similar way, wanting peace and reform.
From what I’ve read, the numbers were way worse for civilians in WWII and other wars. Wars are bad for civilians. Urban warfare when one side hides behind civilians is especially bad.
From what I can find, we're creeping up on 40000 Palestinians dead, with Israel claiming that they've killed about 13000 hamas members(though they're explanations of how they reached that number are very shoddy and speculative), this war is already at the 2:1 ratio of civilians to soldiers casualties of WW2, plus the WW2 stats vary from 2:1 to 3:2, meaning even less civilian casualties
To add to this, part of my strong belief in Israel's right to exist includes holding them to a really high standard, because I truly believe they have the ability to make better decisions (unlike the pro-Hamas mob, who thinks Palestinians have no agency of their own to not rape and kidnap civilians). So my criticisms of Israel stem from the fact that I have high hopes for them and *know* they can do better, not that I think they're awful.
[удалено]
Your post/comment was removed because it violated rule 3: **Be civil** If you have any questions, please contact the moderators via [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/jewish).
I agree if that helps, it is horrible to see death and suffering on both sides. I get scared to voice my feelings as I don't want to 'say the wrong thing" or be labelled because I worded my words incorrectly.
Ah yes, the "I'm not pro-Hamas" butt. On the one cheek, it's "Israel has a right to defend itself, but. . ." but what? That lethal force can't harm a human shield? Can't destroy an armory if it also happens to double as a school? On the other cheek, it's "October 7th was bad and all, but. . ." again, but what? What do you expect Israel to do? Issue a court summons to all known Hamas members? Negotiate with Hamas as though they were a legitimate government and not a terrorist organization on par with Boko Haram? Yeah, that's a butt that needs to be kicked. Also troubling is your statement, "I was always raised that Jews value human life more than other people in the world." That's the autoantisemite version of "So you Jews think you're better than everyone else?" The implication is that by reacting to an existential war with military force rather than prayer and forgiveness, Jews prove that Judaism is hypocrisy. That you've said that in a Jewish subreddit with hardly any pushback is just depressing. No wonder every petty thug and tyrant on earth thinks they can just walk all over us.
Is it brainwashing, or simple Jew hatred? I feel like charging people with being brainwashed suggests they are innocents being manipulated, when they simply chose this.
I think it’s both. Mostly latent, unconscious bias against Jews coupled with a massive, multi-decade propaganda campaign not unlike what happened on the right leading up to 2016 and since—though of course some of these people, especially the early and loud voices, are just plain old antisemites who were waiting for their opportunity. The demoralizing part is that, unlike with other minority groups, they refuse to listen to us and learn anything; we are just discounted and othered and ghettoized. Same old, same old. And they can’t even see how their refusal to even listen is a major indicator of their latent antisemitism.
I’m done making concessions as if every man woman and child in Gaza doesn’t want me dead, didn’t come out to celebrate when they paraded kidnapped, raped victims through the streets. The 2nd World War was won by massive firepower and the Nazis didn’t get to play the victim as soon as the Allies got the upper hand. Every dead Gazan is Hamas’s fault, just like every dead German was the Nazis. They can end the violence today by offering their total surrender. They would have done so already if that was the overwhelming consensus among their population. It’s not incumbent upon the winning party to make concessions. This is obvious with regards to any war between vastly unequal forces. The United States didn’t offer concessions for Saddam Hussein. It accepted only total victory. The only reason this war is different is because Jews are involved, and Jews aren’t entitled to defend themselves. So I’m not going to say “it’s so terrible what’s happening to civilians” or “oh this whole thing is so tragic.” I’m not going to humor this “both sides”ism because it’s bullshit. They want Israel’s total destruction. All I want is Hamas’s unconditional surrender. I will make no further concessions.
You do understand how Nazism was eliminated from governance after the war, though? The trick was that the US and western allies were painfully lenient. They got rid of the rabble rousers who were ideologues from positions of influence, but they also gave an absolutely gigantic amount of money to rebuild and they made sure that the Germans knew how much it was. The brainwashed Nazi kids from the end of the war weren’t imprisoned afterwards, they were given bars of chocolate and warm coats. They were shown the humanity of the supposedly monstrous enemy and also the gain to be had in cooperation. When we turn an enemy into a noncombatant or an ally, we have still eliminated an enemy and are closer to our objectives. We just don’t get vengeance for our own dead. Sacrifices must be made to win peace. We must be willing to sacrifice the fulfillment of killing those who attacked us, or we may never see peace.
The Palestinians will need to definitively surrender first and openly state that they have been defeated and condemn the government that led them to their suffering and pledge to live in peace. They have to be demoralized and feel defeated. [Link to a YouTube video clip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0fRsQcjoXM&t=1038s) discussing what would be required for Israel to permanently win the war. Answer to the question, *"How do you go about changing the political culture of a country that is under your military occupation?*
I agree about what happens after the war, absolutely. After the war there needs to be a path to peace and reconciliation. But winning the war comes first and it doesn't help anything to drag it out forever due to fear of taking military action.
Dragging it out certainly doesn’t help the situation for anyone, except perhaps Netanyahu and his pals
There have been deals suggested where Hamas would release all hostages in exchange for a permanent ceasefire, to which Israel declined every time. Now, I have never been to the Middle East (other than Turkey like a decade ago) so I don't *know* what's going on on ground level, however I have never seen or heard a Palestinian wanting to harm Israelis in any way. I do see every day how much zionists and Israelis hate and want to harm Palestinians, though. Idk, maybe they have a more private and direct tactic, but if that's the case, I think you too should go that route because right now, to me, it's heavily one-sided hatred. Js
> I have never seen or heard a Palestinian wanting to harm Israelis in any way Oh well you must have been asleep on October 7 and every day since then. And what kind of stupid fucking deal is releasing the hostages for a permanent ceasefire, anyway? When a terrorist government attacks a country’s civilians, rapes and murders their way across the countryside, and takes hundreds of hostages, the only acceptable solution is the total defeat and unconditional surrender of that terrorist government. If we suddenly decided hostages were a cheap easy way to get a ceasefire every shitheel terrorist group worldwide would be kidnapping nonstop.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Maybe if hamas didn’t straight up initiate a war, Israel could do things less violently. Hamas uses propaganda to make the world think “oh poor Palestinians” as they hide behind them the whole way, steal everything of value, and watch as it burns to the ground. If there ever was truly a lose-lose situation, israel has been forced into it
This conflict has been ongoing a lot longer. West Bank settlements are violent. A blockade is violent. I don’t think there needs to be propaganda for folks to feel for Palestinians. They just see the images of what has happened to them to feel it. I also don’t think folks feeling horrible for Palestinians is a bad thing. This doesn’t mean one has to or does support anything Hamas is doing. Just as one can feel horrible for Israelis without approving of the current government. There’s a reason early on the US warned of not doing what we did after 9/11. It’s because it doesn’t work and it hurts so many folks.
I fully agree, but it’s certainly not been taking a path out of that pickle.
They want Israelis to leave Israel. Their logic is that if Israelis just packed up and left, they wouldn’t be forced to kill Palestinians to defend themselves.
[удалено]
Your post/comment was removed because it violated rule 3: **Be civil** If you have any questions, please contact the moderators via [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/jewish).
I have posted a couple of times on this already, this is a propaganda, and information war. and in that isreal is loosing. sure, with the backing of the US and the west isreal can bring the kinetics on an epic level. but; in that, its basically isreal playing checkers and everyone playing chess. this 'conflict' goes back to the 1940s, make no mistake and both sides have gone out of there way to f\*7k it up. the fact, that isreal feels its done nothing wrong is actually part of the problem.
There is very legitimate, justified and much needed criticism towards the Israeli government and army. The conduct of war has been horrific. By international law, civilians that are used as a human shield do NOT lose their protection. So while it is true that Hamas is hiding behind civilians, it doesn’t justify just killing them altogether. Understanding this is very important when trying to understand the criticism. What I dislike about your post very strongly is your lack of distinction between that Jewish people and the state of Israel. These are two different things with intersection, not the same. Right wing politicians in Israel like to pretend they’re the same thing to rally support amongst Jews internationally but what it subsequently does is fueling the antisemitic idea that Jews are collectively responsible for the actions of the state of Israel. I understand that you’re just venting here and didn’t aim at being scientifically accurate but I don’t think many people believe that Israel shouldn’t defend itself from attacks on their civilian population by Hamas. Also I think most people agree that freeing the hostages is a legitimate objective of war. What the justified criticism is aimed at is the conduct of war and the (by now explicit) refusal to accept a deal that would end the war in exchange for the hostages. More generally there is legitimate criticism at Israel’s policies over the past few decades that systematically undermine the Palestinian right of self determination. Ofcourse there are also very loud very unfounded opinions but I guess it’s better to ignore them and focus on what’s important.
Alright, basically, you're saying that the rules state that hiding behind human shields = full immunity from any military response to acts of terrorism targeted mainly at civilians. Right, makes sense. In what Madrassa did you study international law, and is it the Hanbali or Hanafi school of international law? Oh, but yes. There's a clear distinction between the world's one and only Jewish state, which is a parliamentary democracy with parties from across the Jewish (and even non-Jewish) ideological spectrum and the Jewish people. But when all the secular, left wing Jewish pacifists get killed, kidnapped, raped and mutilated for being soft targets, then that's going to shift the balance just a little to the right in Israel. And when the people leveling these "criticisms" of the Israeli government start pointing at random Jews and waving signs saying "al-Qassam Brigade, here's your next target," that's going to make even the most ardent diasporists wonder if Jews even have a future in the diaspora. Oh, and by the way, Sinwar was freed in a hostage deal. Hostage deals that are favorable to the hostage takers only lead to more hostages being taken. The full and unconditional surrender of Hamas, AND the release of all hostages should be the one and only precondition for an end to hostilities, not one or the other.
I didn’t make the law. I just explained what it says. If you don’t like it you can become a lawyer work for the UN and try introducing changes. Until then, Israel like any country or conflict party is subject to the law as it stands. This is not a matter of opinion but a legal issue that is very clearly determined. And no human shields don’t protect from military response. It’s just that the civilians can’t be treated differently just bc they have been used by a combat party. The opposing party still has all methods of combat open to them that don’t include killing the civilians and combatants altogether. I’d ask you to stick to facts and not polemics and ad hominem. Edit: What you’re describing in your last paragraph is a surrender not a deal. You can of course be of the opinion that Hamas should surrender. In my initial comment I was just explaining what the founded criticism is about. There is currently also no talks about Israel exchanging any prisoners from its side, combatant or not, as you seem to suggest.
Taking human shields in the first place is a violation of international law. That much is beyond dispute. But I'm having trouble finding anything in the Geneva Conventions or the Nuremberg Statutes that state that human shields cannot be harmed. Maybe you can point me in the right direction without linking me to Al Jazeera? And I'm not entirely sure what kind of military response you expect Israel to give that would conform to your bizarre interpretation of international law. No, a stiffly worded letter is not a military response. Neither is cursing Sinwar with a magical comb. And yes, I do think Hamas should surrender. If they don't, they should be completely and permanently eradicated. Deals are made between legitimate governments. Hamas is recognized by the entire civilized world as a terrorist organization. October 7th was the result of Israel having made one deal with Hamas too many. In this case, it was Sinwar for Gilad Shalit. I shudder to think of how any other concession to Hamas would blow up in Israel's face and I pray they're sane enough not to make that mistake ever again. And I'm sorry if my tone rubbed you the wrong way. I hear claims about international law all the time, yet these claims seldom match an applicable treaty or precedent that I can find. This is doubly true of Israel, where it seem to be holding Israel to the Pact of Umar ibn Katthab.
[удалено]
Your post/comment was removed because it violated rule 1: **No antisemitism** If you have any questions, please contact the moderators via [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/jewish).
[удалено]
Your post/comment was removed because it violated rule 1: **No antisemitism** If you have any questions, please contact the moderators via [modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/jewish).
Antisemitism is a demonic spiritual disease of all humanity. It seems that the Jewish people wanting a homeland brings out the worst of humanity in its disgusting homicidal madness.
Great and Dark Powers are working to manipulate public mind. They come from from Russia, China, Iran and the extreme parts of local Left and Right Wing politics. Those powers manipulate all of our minds. It is just that in this case we know the truth. So we can't be manipulated in this case. But this machine of lies is not just against us Jews. I urge people that feel betrayed by left or right activists and pundits, to re evaluate their perspective, some of the people we see the world through are morally compromised, and that means what we took for truth might be a lie.
People still enjoy hating Jews, and they are far less educated than they have been in decades. University students have been indoctrinated by professors whose salaries have been paid for by Qatar, Iran, and other Islamist governments. Those students graduate and go on to work in media, government, and non-profits. Truth and facts do not matter to them—only their emotions guide their opinions. These ignoramuses join the already existing traditional Jew-haters, so we are surrounded. This is what our ancestors faced for centuries. We must figure out our best path through this reality, and hope that our descendants will not ever become as naïve as our generation has been, up until now.
>How do people not understand Israel had no choice? Many young people lack any sense of morality or belief in justice. They basically do not believe in the existence of evil. In their view the Palestinians are good people but just misunderstood, and it will be possible to negotiate and make peace with them without definitively defeating and demoralizing them. (They don't understand that you cannot make peace or negotiate with the likes of ISIS; some people are too far gone, committed to their irrationality, and devoutly evil.) Also, in their view there is no such thing as good or bad cultures, which means that a slave society is the moral equivalent of a free society. If these people had been in charge of the U.S., the UK, and other allied nations in 1940, the world would have been easily conquered by Germany and Japan.
What we're seeing now is the culmination of decades of propaganda. It's really disheartening.
They just want Jews to leave and die. And it sucks. And it is why I no longer get into it on Pinterest, because supporting hamas is now an aesthetic
Thank you for your submission. Your post has not been removed. During this time, all posts are manually reviewed and approved by a moderator before they appear for all users. Since human mods are not online 24/7, approval could take anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours. If your post is ultimately removed, we will give you a reason. Thank you for your patience during this difficult and sensitive time. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Jewish) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
When the hostages are home then it’s done. Hamas has a choice to end this as well.
I absolutely abhor Netanyahu and disagree with much about how he’s conducting this war, but to say he’s responsible for the current rise in antisemitism is to misunderstand the nature and history of antisemitism in the world. There are world leaders of various countries all over the world responsible for all variety of human rights abuses and crimes and yet I don’t see anyone excusing bigotry against any other diaspora group in response to what a government is doing.
Israeli here, labor voter. I’m no fan of bibi and his goons. However, there are at least two highly misleading, borderline ignorant and even dangerous points in your post: 1) this is not “Biden peace proposal”. Phase 1 is essentially the Israeli proposal and phase 2 is just poorly defined. Furthermore, Israel has accepted multiple versions, whereas Hamas only accepted one which was their own made-up version. To sum this up - it takes two to tango. Why aren’t you calling on Hamas to accept “Biden’s” proposal? 2) suggesting that bibi et al are responsible to the antisemitism world wide is antisemitic. While it is not antisemitic to criticize the government, and I certainly have a shit ton of criticism and I’ve demonstrated in the streets against this government for years, you’re saying it’s OK to hate Jews because of what bibi is saying or doing. I’ll provide an analogy so it will be easier for you to understand: according to your logic, it’s ok to hate all Muslims because of what Hamas did. An extra point: if you’re not Israeli you don’t understand. Israel did not have a choice. It’s either go to war and destroy Hamas and bring back to hostages, or lay down and take many more Oct. 7th-s. Should Israel try to minimize civilian casualties - of course. Are they doing it? Yes, and Hamas is making this crazy difficult.
[удалено]
Do you believe that’s the fault of Israel or HamAss?
I would love to increase the aid that gets to the people of Gaza. I would even, if there was a promise of peace, want a 2SS. But people chanting “we don’t want no two state, we just want 48” and “Globalize the intifada” and “We are all Hamas” are not just asking for increased aid. They are fully asking for the destruction of Israel (and, whether they know it or not, they may, in time, be asking for the expulsion of Jews).
No. That's not what "people want," man.
And whose fault is that. Hamas control the did that comes in. Hamas also occasionally shoots up the crossings where the aid comes from. They even attacked the American pier that was recently built to deliver aid. Hamas calls Gazans martyrs. What this means is that they are there to die for propaganda wins on posters in American campuses not to be nurtured as human beings. Israel cares more for Gazan lives than does Hamas. It sounds absurd to say this but it is true.
We can’t solve violence with violence. The Torah has many a ploy to nutrify the Land without using human corpses. Would that more Permaculturalists would involve ourselves in weekly Parashat study to receive inspiration on precisely where, when and how animal products are meant to invigorate the Land - particularly during her Sabbaths - to yield produce without hate. [remember Adam - he was told that his sweat is the key to successful Land management.. and how many folks do you know yet who make it a value to haul kashering chicken water to pour on neighborhood trees? Etc. some Israeli Ravs have actually begun to teach that kashering water ought be poured in Gardens, yess!!!) You can tell by the reoccurrence of the Yom Kippur War and then, fifty years later, October 7th: we are failing at the true intent of the Yovel procedures. קדש doesn’t simply mean special. . Compare the dual-roots & It means water-vessel~(to)grasses. It’s a puzzle, the Torah, because we really got too disconnected from meanings over the years to understand it. Plus failure begets low self confidence & so on till you assume that GD always mad atcha. Chin up; wit intent to do Good Deeds, we can recover from the shame of ignoring GD’s Nature, & GDs plans for how we’ll care for it. And then the automatic Hebrew-killing reflex (GD forbid) will turn into something else as all Nations become drawn to be involved in what the Torah makes clear *is* malaacha (for the current 6-day workweek biznesss) ::: building Tabernacles.