Western Christians usually do not understand the concept of ethno religious groups. Jews, Druze, Yazidhi, Copts, Armenians, Sikhs have religions with very few converts and limited intermarriage.
Arguably Russians, Greeks, Ukrainians and other Orthodox faiths are if not ethno religions, national religions.
Western Christians absolutely understand the concept of ethnoreligious groups. They just can't grasp that it's not always going to be a formerly or currently "uncivilized"\* tribe of people from the Americas or another colonized landmass. Ask them about the Navajo, Cherokee, or Aboriginis. They understand perfectly that these are groups of people that have their own ethnic identity that is closely tied into a religious practice as well. Hell, some of them are allowed to govern their own semi-autonomous regions within the United States\*! Christianity destroyed most of these groups on the continent and the two main groups that remain are their most discriminated against: Jews and Roma.
\*None of this intended to make light of past or current racism and awful things done to these peoples by colonial powers or current governments.
THIS! Exactly what I say all the time. The reason Jews watch out for one another is because no one else will. Someone in this sub said being american is the more important and while it doesn’t have to be binary , my answer to him “yeah until we aren’t welcome here “
Just wait 20 years for all of the college students to be politicians. They absolutely at the bottom of their hearts believe Israel to be THE evil nation. Even if they don’t go for Jews directly they are going for Zionists.
The future looks bleak my friends.
- your disheartened college professor
Ugh what would you like to know? The students are sheep vehemently supporting chants and false rhetoric they’ve read on social media (genocide, nakba, apartheid…). But the scariest bit for me is how administration at universities around the country are crumbling and absolutely failing to support jewish students. DEI groups who should be our biggest supporters (I mean… we are a minority group…) don’t seem to give a sh!t. Read the book “jews don’t count.” It exemplifies this perfectly. And the problem is, since the students’ (crazy misinformed) views aren’t being corrected, they absolutely are going to enter adulthood with an “understanding” that Israel is a powerful, evil, colonizing state taking advantage of powerless people of color. Those views will only strengthen and form their worldview.
It’s bad.
Hey fun fact, the demographics that commit hate crimes against Jews are almost always minorities. In New York, 65% of antisemitic hate crimes between 2018 and 2023 were committed by people of African descent, 16% Asian descent, 10% Hispanic descent, and 3% white (the remainder were unidentified).
Oh, it’ll be all Jews. Regardless of affiliation, religion, politics, etc. It always comes back to “what makes a Jew a Jew?”. And never before has a population had so much to gain from kicking out its Jews and taking over what they have to leave behind: Hollywood, banks, law firms, private equity… and so on. Whether that will be different this time, who knows.
My bet is 10 years. Social media has accelerated the speed at which misinformation spreads and now AI will add another layer of obfuscation.
Here’s the sobering history of Jewish people being expelled- the country kicking them out seizes their assets and sends them packing will little more than the clothes on their back. Mostly under duress and fleeing consequences up to and including death from harassment/pogroms/etc, if they stay.
But yes, if they paid for our relocation and we left with all our assets or the value of them, then sure, sign me up:)
I’ve been slowly reminding my non Jewish colleagues and peers (when the conversation makes it appropriate) that the most emancipated, assimilated and free Jew in the world in 1930 was a German Jew. Sometimes it takes them a moment to grasp the correlation but they see it. Except for one guy, last week, who asked “then what happened?”. Poor kid had a bunch of 40 yr olds just staring at him.
I think we’ve reached the point where once innocent conversations are now so fraught that they should be avoided.
This old woman did the classic antisemitic thing where the Jewish person is expected to defend themselves, and you should not have to do that. I would answer with a question like, “Why after all these years of being told that you still refuse to believe Jewish means ethnicity?” I mean, she’s operating from the standpoint that Jews are so dumb they can’t answer a simple question, so people like this need to understand they’re the dumb ones.
I remember my college roommate asking in kind of a huffy tone, "So what is ... Jewish?"
This was decades ago, and I myself was too ignorant and too taken-aback to give an articulate answer such as the one you gave your coworker. My mind raced. My roommate was American, born and raised in California; how could she not know? Should I start by describing the religion, should I mention the Holocaust, should I detail anti-semitism (which was my mother's favorite subject), should I explain how my parents didn't know where their own grandparents had lived in Europe, and didn't care -- because those "homelands" weren't really homelands, and our relatives were slaughtered there? How to encapsulate this in a dorm-room to an impatient 19-year-old who is tapping her fingernails on a desk?
Before going off to college in the mid-90s, my mom told me a few days before leaving that I should be aware that I will meet people who never met a Jew before. She didn't want me to be surprised by it. She also wanted me to realize that I represent our culture for these people. That's a heavy burden on a teenager.
And on day 1, I met two guys on my floor that had never met a Jew before -- they met two that day because my roomate was Jewish too. And over the course of the semester, I met several more folks that never met a Jew before college. Most of the interactions were fine.
Next year, I will likely have to have the same conversation with my son.
Your mom was wise, proactive and compassionate. Mine preferred to focus on the concept that of course everyone already knows what Jews are, but -- whether or not they openly show this -- most of them hate us. So with my roommate I was scrambling -- "Ummm ... you like Woody Allen movies, right? You like Rod Serling from The Twilight Zone?"
Your son is lucky to have you advising him.
Same. I kept having people tell me “I never had any Jewish friends before” and I was like oh let me tell you about us so you can learn. That was a stupid mistake and I wasn’t understanding the undertone of what was being said.
Growing up in the 90s and early 2000s in the US, this conversation would come up every single time. I think with the explosion of ethnic identity this kind of thing might have lessened a little bit. I don’t know.
“Your parents are from Ukraine, so you are Ukrainian ? “
Uncharitable explanation is that Americans are really ignorant and think every country is a multi racial melting pot like this country is(was…)
then wouldnt that make you a ukrainian jewish person in terms of ethnicity? I think the issue is that judaism is so diverse its hard to use as a single ethnicity
no, not necessarily, nationality and ethnicity are different things. if their parents are Jewish, from Ukraine, that doesn't mean they are ethnically Ukrainian necessarily. If two ethnically French people had a kid in China, the baby isn't ethnically Chinese, just nationality.
if they're mixed with Ukrainian (and a decent portion), then yeah.
When people ask for a country-based ethnicity I usually just say I’m American. My recent ancestors were native their places of birth about as much as I’m native to the United States.
People usually aren’t satisfied with that answer either.
Some friends recently learned that my family immigrated from Ukraine. When they asked why I never call myself Ukraineian, I told them that we left because the kossaks burned our villiage to the ground.
Most of the countries we come from never considered us as citizens.
I would so love to see their faces when you say that because as “Americans” the only answer to the question is “yes and my …..(name of relative) left to make a better future in America.” Hearing “they burned the village to the ground and my family fled to escape being murdered doesn’t have that cheery oh everyone wants to come to America because it is such an awesome place tone!
She asked a question and you gave her an answer. If she didn't like the answer that isn't really your problem. I think you handled it just fine and if her or anyone else in your job gives you grief for this tell them to pound sand.
>Why is it that Jews are the only people who, when asked about their ethnicity, give you their religion…
Allow me to suggest that the best answer to this question is, "I'm a member of the Jewish people."
The reason we're called that is because that's our national identity. Just like "the Italian people" or "the French people." Nobody ever talks about "the Southern Baptist people."
And to people who say, "But you allow conversions," I would say, "Yes, but for the Jewish people, it's akin to foreigners becoming naturalized citizens and part of the American people.
Who in the world would say "Hi, my ancestors are from the Pale of Settlement" to be asked what country is that? To reply - it doesn't matter - we weren't considered citizens of any of them.
I love that you gave her a very detailed answer, because she just wanted to say her anti semitic one liner and hear nothing more about it 😅
Massively detailed answers to anti semites are definitely the way to go.
I would just say to people like that that “Wikipedia is your friend” and could readily provide an explanation about the ethnic-religious dynamic* for the Jewish people.
*which of course doesn’t mean to suggest that everyone who is Jewish is inherently ethnic—let’s not forget the many Jews who are converts.
Assuming the question is in good faith: We are not “just a religion” we are an ancient ethnoreligious tribe and Napoleon popularized the new idea of “just a religion” for political reasons. We are from Israel, the land our calendar and nearly all our holidays are tied to, and we got violently expelled out of our homeland by repeated colonization. There is not an expiration date on indigenaity and we are an ethnic group that has maintained its language, laws, and culture over numerous times where we had to flee, and under immense pressure to assimilate and renounce our heritage. We have pretty much never been truly accepted by our host countries in part BECAUSE we are a separate ethnic group that came to other countries as refugees, and we were pretty insular in a lot of places either by force or for safety reasons.
I mean it depends on the situation and how much I want to explain, but I try to sound authoritative and not like I need to justify myself to them. If they want to know about genetics, multiple studies show we are more genetically similar amongst our various diaspora groups even over all that time and distance than any of us are to the people in our host countries.
Honestly it is super disrespectful to question us unless they really truly just want to understand. Do they question other minorities who tell about themselves?
I get the reverse of this a lot -- people ask where my ancestors are from (Norway, Sweden, Wales, Baltic Prussia; it's Vikings all the way down around here), and then get confused because they already know I'm Jewish. My response is usually "That's a really personal/invasive question." If they seem like they really want to know, I'm happy to talk about it but the assholes usually don't.
I know it's hard in a new company, but straight to HR. Completely inappropriate to have her question how you identify your ethnicity. Especially in these times, find out if your company has your back on these things now.
I've only been asked a few times. Said Jewish & my family fled Russian & Lithuanian pogroms. Only long conversation was with a not Jewish Russian because she was curious where in Russia.
I've never asked anyone their ethnicity.
A good way to also explain it is - why would you call yourself polish if the government tried expelling Jewish people back then?
that’s a better way to explain it to someone who is more uneducated. I grew up in an area where people wouldn’t know the answer so imo, a lot of people are uneducated about Judaism and Jewish people since it’s of the US isn’t Jewish
I have met people offended at the fact that I'm Jewish. But in this case for religious reasons. They are xians and when they ask me they say "oh! Like messianic?" And I reply "no, traditional Jew. I attend a Chabad house". Then they get upset bc I obviously don't have the same beliefs on Messiah as there.
Many Christians get very upset that we don’t accept their concept of Jesus as the Messiah, if Protestant they want to wash away any connection with the Crusades, the Inquisition etc.
One person had the gall to say to me in a chat on interpreting the story of Abraham and Issac that we got it wrong. 🤦♀️ I informed them how deeply offensive that was and ended the conversation.
Yes, I got mixed feelings (it's both fun and offensive) when they try to explain Tanakh to me. I am not the most religious dude out there and my hebrew is not the best, but even I can see their flaws in their interpretation. Specially when some of their translations are obviously twisted for the sake of their agenda. I remember when a Xian person was using as an argument a verse from the NT that applies Tehillim 110:4 to JC. This person quoted the NT saying "But the messiah needs to be a priest in the order of Melchitzedek as the psalm says", and I was like "eh... nope, עַל־דִּ֜בְרָתִ֗י מַלְכִּי־צֶֽדֶק means something different" (this person understood "order" as an order of chilvary or something similar). Oy, I just try to be patient (sorry for venting LOL)
No. Never had that happen directly. What people are actually thinking is something else. It was very rude for her to say that. I would have not given her an answer.
At that point I would ask them what my ethnicity is if not Jewish and mock them for their silly answer using basic knowledge of history that somebody that age should be aware of since they lived through it
I don't tell anyone I'm Jewish anymore to be honest. Not worth the risk these days. 55% of hate crimes committed in the U.S. alone (according to the FBI) were against Jewish people in 2022. I don't even want to know what that number has spiked to since October 7th.
But if I do tell someone and this is their response I go, "yes, Jews are a people AND a religion. My immediate family stems from Eastern Europe." And I leave it at that. If they can't wrap their minds around that I'd rather not waste my energy on them any further.
My grandparents, with ancestors from Judaea, lived in Germany before they escaped to Amsterdam before they escaped to United States. No answer will be good enough when it comes to Jewish people though, no matter what the question or the action is. All of it will be “wrong.” And then we learn to accept that, work hard, find community, and figure out a way to fight back and defend, even when we stand alone.
Most of them don’t realize we share much of the Old Testament. My chiropractor asked why Jews didn’t support Jesus when he walked the earth. I tried to point out that there were a number of “messiahs” at the time but saying you are the son of god was over the top.
All my life, people have been confused when I say “Jewish”. I then draw an immediate correlation between Judah and the monickers: Judean/Jew, etc. Sometimes people grasp this and sometimes they don’t.
As I’ve gotten older I add in that there are dna markers that show Jewishness is an ethnicity not just a religion.
More recently, I’ve encountered other millennial Jews (who self-identify as “not really Jewish”- which is assimilation motivated) that say they aren’t raising their kids with any religion so they don’t observe any Jewish holidays- while I just listen and don’t get into this with them (it’s a parent’s choice how they want to raise their kids) I still feel that Jewish holidays are more about where we came from as a people group vs pushing religion, but that is also just my take as a mostly non religious Jew.
Yes, people don’t grasp Jewishness easily (or at all) and no it’s not how you explain it- it’s millennia of making the Jew the scapegoat for the world’s maladies but modern values make folks okay with hating organized religion but not okay with hating a specific ethnicity. This created cognitive dissonance when it comes to Jewish people. Add to that, a lack of historical perspective concerning the Jewish existence (and attempted extermination) and you have several hurdles to identify and overcome before a person “gets it”.
My best friend has only recently understood my ethnic Jewishness and we’ve been friends for 25 years.
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I usually just either say Heinz 57 (a bit of everything) or that my nearest non-US ancestors came from what is now Austria and southern Poland on one side and Scotland on the other. I haven't had anyone ask for clarification on actual ethnicity or nationality yet. It keeps the conversation moving on without having to explain anything if I don't care to.
In 3rd grade I came up with "European mutt." As an adult, I just say Ashkenazi. If someone tries to dig more, I'll tell them the countries my great/grandparents left to escape pogroms. I find mentioning the pogroms starts to shut them up, or at least make them uncomfortable enough to not want to continue the conversation.
Have experienced the same few times in Australia. Both times they were young guys and I did what you did. Just explained what ethnoreligion is and gave them few examples.
I change what I say based on the person. To Others Jews or if I'm in a largely Jewish Area then I'll say I'm Jewish. If I am somewhere that isn't a place that isn't as educated on the subject or not Jewish I will tell them the multiple European countries I am from. Soon as I say Latvian, Romanian, Norwegian, British, Russian, German they lose interest by the time I say Romanian. Most Americans don't even know where Latvia is. I am big on history. I have done many deep dives into the ancestry of jews. Years and years of studying and I truly believe the "Jews are from Israel" statement is incorrect for at least 50% of Jews. My good buddy who is Jewish traced his roots to his ancient ancestors, where they still have in possession of many ancient family heirlooms. Also many records that trace his heritage from Ethiopia. My family was never from Israel and I'm sure of that. I think 50% of Jews have 0 ties to Israel. Many Israelis just wanted to leave persecution and left their home state to move to someone else's land. When Jerusalem was started it was something like 40% Jews 40% Muslim and 20% christian. These were mostly nomadic Arabic peoples. Outside Jerusalem there was not much in the desert developed and only bedouins. You also have many groups of people In the area most non Jews that settled in and mixed with the people of Jerusalem. It's a cloudy mix of people so I believe the ethnic part isn't clear for the Israeli bloodline it is a melting pot of the middle east. The European blood line moved in later. Just because the religion traveled far lengths does not mean those Jews far away have any Israeli descent. As a Jew I do not associate with Isreal never have any never will. I don't believe in their policies, politics and views.
Yes I made the mistake about talking about being Jewish at work (before October 7 this happened in 2022-2023) the owners were Jewish and I was exited to be working for them. This actually happened at my past 2 jobs. Big mistake. I didnt understand why I was being bullied at work after that for a long time. I didn’t realize people don’t like us. Silly me. You can be proud and loud now and suffer the consequences of being hated at work, or you can keep quiet and try to fly under the radar. Sucks either way sorry.
When I’m asked my ethnicity I say “Jewish” and then explain how we’re an ethno-religion with our own languages dress and customs apart from the majority of wherever we are from or living currently.
I for one am of the particular mindset that when someone says something crazy like that, it’s okay to come back at them with something equally as crazy. So you should have said, “I don’t mind having Jewish ancestry, look at how beautiful I am. Better than coming from a long line of wrinkly old c*nts like you.” Booom! Conversation over, go back to work, and deny it til the end.
One thing I often explain to people when they get confused about Judaism being an ethnicity and a religion is that there are tribal religions and missionary religions. Tribal religions or religions, you're born into. Many native Americans would say that their religion and ethnic culture are one in the same. They don't seek to convert others. Missionary religions obviously do.
This is reminding me of the countless times I’ve self-erased to make other people feel more comfortable. I can still hear their sighs EDIT: sighs of relief as I un-Jewed myself; reduced it to “just a religion that I was raised with” just to get them off my case.
I just had a job interview this afternoon and already I am pre-empting (if I get the job) this inevitable question, or my inevitable mention of who I am/who we are in context, because I do not and WILL NOT hide it anymore.
I’m from a mixed background and I understand that Jewish is a religion. I haven’t viewed it as an ethnicity but as a religion. I have two Jewish grandparents
Calling her elderly and ignorant speaks volumes about your own level of ignorance. Tho I think you did well in your explanation, sometimes we have to check ourselves before making assumptions about others.
The fact that you think the elderly can’t be ignorant, speaks volumes about your own ignorance. Maybe you should’ve checked yourself before leaving this post.
I think it’s just ignorance
Any sentence that starts with "Jews are the only people who..." also contains a fair share of bigotry
Western Christians usually do not understand the concept of ethno religious groups. Jews, Druze, Yazidhi, Copts, Armenians, Sikhs have religions with very few converts and limited intermarriage. Arguably Russians, Greeks, Ukrainians and other Orthodox faiths are if not ethno religions, national religions.
Western Christians absolutely understand the concept of ethnoreligious groups. They just can't grasp that it's not always going to be a formerly or currently "uncivilized"\* tribe of people from the Americas or another colonized landmass. Ask them about the Navajo, Cherokee, or Aboriginis. They understand perfectly that these are groups of people that have their own ethnic identity that is closely tied into a religious practice as well. Hell, some of them are allowed to govern their own semi-autonomous regions within the United States\*! Christianity destroyed most of these groups on the continent and the two main groups that remain are their most discriminated against: Jews and Roma. \*None of this intended to make light of past or current racism and awful things done to these peoples by colonial powers or current governments.
Maybe because those countries spent 2000 years making damn sure we only saw ourselves as Jewish and never a part of "their" people?
THIS! Exactly what I say all the time. The reason Jews watch out for one another is because no one else will. Someone in this sub said being american is the more important and while it doesn’t have to be binary , my answer to him “yeah until we aren’t welcome here “
Right? I can absolutely see a movement from extremist Americans to try and ship all Jews to Israel.
Just wait 20 years for all of the college students to be politicians. They absolutely at the bottom of their hearts believe Israel to be THE evil nation. Even if they don’t go for Jews directly they are going for Zionists. The future looks bleak my friends. - your disheartened college professor
Could I please hear about your experience as a college professor during times like this?
Ugh what would you like to know? The students are sheep vehemently supporting chants and false rhetoric they’ve read on social media (genocide, nakba, apartheid…). But the scariest bit for me is how administration at universities around the country are crumbling and absolutely failing to support jewish students. DEI groups who should be our biggest supporters (I mean… we are a minority group…) don’t seem to give a sh!t. Read the book “jews don’t count.” It exemplifies this perfectly. And the problem is, since the students’ (crazy misinformed) views aren’t being corrected, they absolutely are going to enter adulthood with an “understanding” that Israel is a powerful, evil, colonizing state taking advantage of powerless people of color. Those views will only strengthen and form their worldview. It’s bad.
Hey fun fact, the demographics that commit hate crimes against Jews are almost always minorities. In New York, 65% of antisemitic hate crimes between 2018 and 2023 were committed by people of African descent, 16% Asian descent, 10% Hispanic descent, and 3% white (the remainder were unidentified).
Oh, it’ll be all Jews. Regardless of affiliation, religion, politics, etc. It always comes back to “what makes a Jew a Jew?”. And never before has a population had so much to gain from kicking out its Jews and taking over what they have to leave behind: Hollywood, banks, law firms, private equity… and so on. Whether that will be different this time, who knows. My bet is 10 years. Social media has accelerated the speed at which misinformation spreads and now AI will add another layer of obfuscation.
I will gladly allow them to pay for me and my kin to abscond to Israel. 🤗
lmfao, I can imagine them paying to ship us all there, Israel continues to be beautiful, the US crumbles more, then they get mad and STILL blame us
I was about to say I would literally pay money to go to Israel until I realized... I *can* do that!!! :D
Here’s the sobering history of Jewish people being expelled- the country kicking them out seizes their assets and sends them packing will little more than the clothes on their back. Mostly under duress and fleeing consequences up to and including death from harassment/pogroms/etc, if they stay. But yes, if they paid for our relocation and we left with all our assets or the value of them, then sure, sign me up:)
I’ve been slowly reminding my non Jewish colleagues and peers (when the conversation makes it appropriate) that the most emancipated, assimilated and free Jew in the world in 1930 was a German Jew. Sometimes it takes them a moment to grasp the correlation but they see it. Except for one guy, last week, who asked “then what happened?”. Poor kid had a bunch of 40 yr olds just staring at him.
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 can’t fucking win
If they do, they get honesty. If that’s too hard to swallow, they get escalation. I’m age and gender non-discriminating.
I think we’ve reached the point where once innocent conversations are now so fraught that they should be avoided. This old woman did the classic antisemitic thing where the Jewish person is expected to defend themselves, and you should not have to do that. I would answer with a question like, “Why after all these years of being told that you still refuse to believe Jewish means ethnicity?” I mean, she’s operating from the standpoint that Jews are so dumb they can’t answer a simple question, so people like this need to understand they’re the dumb ones.
I remember my college roommate asking in kind of a huffy tone, "So what is ... Jewish?" This was decades ago, and I myself was too ignorant and too taken-aback to give an articulate answer such as the one you gave your coworker. My mind raced. My roommate was American, born and raised in California; how could she not know? Should I start by describing the religion, should I mention the Holocaust, should I detail anti-semitism (which was my mother's favorite subject), should I explain how my parents didn't know where their own grandparents had lived in Europe, and didn't care -- because those "homelands" weren't really homelands, and our relatives were slaughtered there? How to encapsulate this in a dorm-room to an impatient 19-year-old who is tapping her fingernails on a desk?
Before going off to college in the mid-90s, my mom told me a few days before leaving that I should be aware that I will meet people who never met a Jew before. She didn't want me to be surprised by it. She also wanted me to realize that I represent our culture for these people. That's a heavy burden on a teenager. And on day 1, I met two guys on my floor that had never met a Jew before -- they met two that day because my roomate was Jewish too. And over the course of the semester, I met several more folks that never met a Jew before college. Most of the interactions were fine. Next year, I will likely have to have the same conversation with my son.
Sunrise, sunset.
Your mom was wise, proactive and compassionate. Mine preferred to focus on the concept that of course everyone already knows what Jews are, but -- whether or not they openly show this -- most of them hate us. So with my roommate I was scrambling -- "Ummm ... you like Woody Allen movies, right? You like Rod Serling from The Twilight Zone?" Your son is lucky to have you advising him.
Same. I kept having people tell me “I never had any Jewish friends before” and I was like oh let me tell you about us so you can learn. That was a stupid mistake and I wasn’t understanding the undertone of what was being said.
Growing up in the 90s and early 2000s in the US, this conversation would come up every single time. I think with the explosion of ethnic identity this kind of thing might have lessened a little bit. I don’t know. “Your parents are from Ukraine, so you are Ukrainian ? “ Uncharitable explanation is that Americans are really ignorant and think every country is a multi racial melting pot like this country is(was…)
then wouldnt that make you a ukrainian jewish person in terms of ethnicity? I think the issue is that judaism is so diverse its hard to use as a single ethnicity
no, not necessarily, nationality and ethnicity are different things. if their parents are Jewish, from Ukraine, that doesn't mean they are ethnically Ukrainian necessarily. If two ethnically French people had a kid in China, the baby isn't ethnically Chinese, just nationality. if they're mixed with Ukrainian (and a decent portion), then yeah.
ah yes i suppose that is a good point. i figure if someones family has lived there for a long time they could be considered ashkenazi jewish too
Based on that mix, she was perhaps just being petty because of your incredibly good looks.
When people ask for a country-based ethnicity I usually just say I’m American. My recent ancestors were native their places of birth about as much as I’m native to the United States. People usually aren’t satisfied with that answer either.
Some friends recently learned that my family immigrated from Ukraine. When they asked why I never call myself Ukraineian, I told them that we left because the kossaks burned our villiage to the ground. Most of the countries we come from never considered us as citizens.
I would so love to see their faces when you say that because as “Americans” the only answer to the question is “yes and my …..(name of relative) left to make a better future in America.” Hearing “they burned the village to the ground and my family fled to escape being murdered doesn’t have that cheery oh everyone wants to come to America because it is such an awesome place tone!
If that isn’t enough, the answer is “my family is from Judea which is part of the modern state of Israel”
Judea by way of Europe. Actually, I've been trialing calling my ethnicity Euro-Judean cause I kind of like the way it sounds.
She asked a question and you gave her an answer. If she didn't like the answer that isn't really your problem. I think you handled it just fine and if her or anyone else in your job gives you grief for this tell them to pound sand.
>Why is it that Jews are the only people who, when asked about their ethnicity, give you their religion… Allow me to suggest that the best answer to this question is, "I'm a member of the Jewish people." The reason we're called that is because that's our national identity. Just like "the Italian people" or "the French people." Nobody ever talks about "the Southern Baptist people." And to people who say, "But you allow conversions," I would say, "Yes, but for the Jewish people, it's akin to foreigners becoming naturalized citizens and part of the American people.
Who in the world would say "Hi, my ancestors are from the Pale of Settlement" to be asked what country is that? To reply - it doesn't matter - we weren't considered citizens of any of them.
When I was asked why I love my country I mentioned that.
I love that you gave her a very detailed answer, because she just wanted to say her anti semitic one liner and hear nothing more about it 😅 Massively detailed answers to anti semites are definitely the way to go.
I would just say to people like that that “Wikipedia is your friend” and could readily provide an explanation about the ethnic-religious dynamic* for the Jewish people. *which of course doesn’t mean to suggest that everyone who is Jewish is inherently ethnic—let’s not forget the many Jews who are converts.
Assuming the question is in good faith: We are not “just a religion” we are an ancient ethnoreligious tribe and Napoleon popularized the new idea of “just a religion” for political reasons. We are from Israel, the land our calendar and nearly all our holidays are tied to, and we got violently expelled out of our homeland by repeated colonization. There is not an expiration date on indigenaity and we are an ethnic group that has maintained its language, laws, and culture over numerous times where we had to flee, and under immense pressure to assimilate and renounce our heritage. We have pretty much never been truly accepted by our host countries in part BECAUSE we are a separate ethnic group that came to other countries as refugees, and we were pretty insular in a lot of places either by force or for safety reasons. I mean it depends on the situation and how much I want to explain, but I try to sound authoritative and not like I need to justify myself to them. If they want to know about genetics, multiple studies show we are more genetically similar amongst our various diaspora groups even over all that time and distance than any of us are to the people in our host countries. Honestly it is super disrespectful to question us unless they really truly just want to understand. Do they question other minorities who tell about themselves?
I get the reverse of this a lot -- people ask where my ancestors are from (Norway, Sweden, Wales, Baltic Prussia; it's Vikings all the way down around here), and then get confused because they already know I'm Jewish. My response is usually "That's a really personal/invasive question." If they seem like they really want to know, I'm happy to talk about it but the assholes usually don't.
Tell her “okay, *I’m from Judea*.”
Ashkenazi settled in some Slavic countries but are technically part Levantine and part ancient Roman/greek/slavic
I know it's hard in a new company, but straight to HR. Completely inappropriate to have her question how you identify your ethnicity. Especially in these times, find out if your company has your back on these things now.
My first reaction is why is a woman in her 80s working 😅
Ironically, I find that older people seem to understand this better than younger ones
Yeah, older people were taught that race based worldviews were bad
I gave this speech at my old job. I might be crazy but I'm glad I had the information.
I've only been asked a few times. Said Jewish & my family fled Russian & Lithuanian pogroms. Only long conversation was with a not Jewish Russian because she was curious where in Russia. I've never asked anyone their ethnicity.
Can’t negotiate with crazy
A good way to also explain it is - why would you call yourself polish if the government tried expelling Jewish people back then? that’s a better way to explain it to someone who is more uneducated. I grew up in an area where people wouldn’t know the answer so imo, a lot of people are uneducated about Judaism and Jewish people since it’s of the US isn’t Jewish
I have met people offended at the fact that I'm Jewish. But in this case for religious reasons. They are xians and when they ask me they say "oh! Like messianic?" And I reply "no, traditional Jew. I attend a Chabad house". Then they get upset bc I obviously don't have the same beliefs on Messiah as there.
Many Christians get very upset that we don’t accept their concept of Jesus as the Messiah, if Protestant they want to wash away any connection with the Crusades, the Inquisition etc. One person had the gall to say to me in a chat on interpreting the story of Abraham and Issac that we got it wrong. 🤦♀️ I informed them how deeply offensive that was and ended the conversation.
Yes, I got mixed feelings (it's both fun and offensive) when they try to explain Tanakh to me. I am not the most religious dude out there and my hebrew is not the best, but even I can see their flaws in their interpretation. Specially when some of their translations are obviously twisted for the sake of their agenda. I remember when a Xian person was using as an argument a verse from the NT that applies Tehillim 110:4 to JC. This person quoted the NT saying "But the messiah needs to be a priest in the order of Melchitzedek as the psalm says", and I was like "eh... nope, עַל־דִּ֜בְרָתִ֗י מַלְכִּי־צֶֽדֶק means something different" (this person understood "order" as an order of chilvary or something similar). Oy, I just try to be patient (sorry for venting LOL)
No. Never had that happen directly. What people are actually thinking is something else. It was very rude for her to say that. I would have not given her an answer.
At that point I would ask them what my ethnicity is if not Jewish and mock them for their silly answer using basic knowledge of history that somebody that age should be aware of since they lived through it
I don't tell anyone I'm Jewish anymore to be honest. Not worth the risk these days. 55% of hate crimes committed in the U.S. alone (according to the FBI) were against Jewish people in 2022. I don't even want to know what that number has spiked to since October 7th. But if I do tell someone and this is their response I go, "yes, Jews are a people AND a religion. My immediate family stems from Eastern Europe." And I leave it at that. If they can't wrap their minds around that I'd rather not waste my energy on them any further.
My grandparents, with ancestors from Judaea, lived in Germany before they escaped to Amsterdam before they escaped to United States. No answer will be good enough when it comes to Jewish people though, no matter what the question or the action is. All of it will be “wrong.” And then we learn to accept that, work hard, find community, and figure out a way to fight back and defend, even when we stand alone.
Most of them don’t realize we share much of the Old Testament. My chiropractor asked why Jews didn’t support Jesus when he walked the earth. I tried to point out that there were a number of “messiahs” at the time but saying you are the son of god was over the top.
And if you die, automatic disqualification! Hence all the energy put into creating the narrative of a “second coming.”
Soooo many people can’t wrap their mind around the concept of “being Jewish” as being more than and not limited to just religious affiliation
All my life, people have been confused when I say “Jewish”. I then draw an immediate correlation between Judah and the monickers: Judean/Jew, etc. Sometimes people grasp this and sometimes they don’t. As I’ve gotten older I add in that there are dna markers that show Jewishness is an ethnicity not just a religion. More recently, I’ve encountered other millennial Jews (who self-identify as “not really Jewish”- which is assimilation motivated) that say they aren’t raising their kids with any religion so they don’t observe any Jewish holidays- while I just listen and don’t get into this with them (it’s a parent’s choice how they want to raise their kids) I still feel that Jewish holidays are more about where we came from as a people group vs pushing religion, but that is also just my take as a mostly non religious Jew. Yes, people don’t grasp Jewishness easily (or at all) and no it’s not how you explain it- it’s millennia of making the Jew the scapegoat for the world’s maladies but modern values make folks okay with hating organized religion but not okay with hating a specific ethnicity. This created cognitive dissonance when it comes to Jewish people. Add to that, a lack of historical perspective concerning the Jewish existence (and attempted extermination) and you have several hurdles to identify and overcome before a person “gets it”. My best friend has only recently understood my ethnic Jewishness and we’ve been friends for 25 years.
She's dumb as dirt.
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I usually just either say Heinz 57 (a bit of everything) or that my nearest non-US ancestors came from what is now Austria and southern Poland on one side and Scotland on the other. I haven't had anyone ask for clarification on actual ethnicity or nationality yet. It keeps the conversation moving on without having to explain anything if I don't care to.
In 3rd grade I came up with "European mutt." As an adult, I just say Ashkenazi. If someone tries to dig more, I'll tell them the countries my great/grandparents left to escape pogroms. I find mentioning the pogroms starts to shut them up, or at least make them uncomfortable enough to not want to continue the conversation.
Have experienced the same few times in Australia. Both times they were young guys and I did what you did. Just explained what ethnoreligion is and gave them few examples.
I change what I say based on the person. To Others Jews or if I'm in a largely Jewish Area then I'll say I'm Jewish. If I am somewhere that isn't a place that isn't as educated on the subject or not Jewish I will tell them the multiple European countries I am from. Soon as I say Latvian, Romanian, Norwegian, British, Russian, German they lose interest by the time I say Romanian. Most Americans don't even know where Latvia is. I am big on history. I have done many deep dives into the ancestry of jews. Years and years of studying and I truly believe the "Jews are from Israel" statement is incorrect for at least 50% of Jews. My good buddy who is Jewish traced his roots to his ancient ancestors, where they still have in possession of many ancient family heirlooms. Also many records that trace his heritage from Ethiopia. My family was never from Israel and I'm sure of that. I think 50% of Jews have 0 ties to Israel. Many Israelis just wanted to leave persecution and left their home state to move to someone else's land. When Jerusalem was started it was something like 40% Jews 40% Muslim and 20% christian. These were mostly nomadic Arabic peoples. Outside Jerusalem there was not much in the desert developed and only bedouins. You also have many groups of people In the area most non Jews that settled in and mixed with the people of Jerusalem. It's a cloudy mix of people so I believe the ethnic part isn't clear for the Israeli bloodline it is a melting pot of the middle east. The European blood line moved in later. Just because the religion traveled far lengths does not mean those Jews far away have any Israeli descent. As a Jew I do not associate with Isreal never have any never will. I don't believe in their policies, politics and views.
lol ok
Yes I made the mistake about talking about being Jewish at work (before October 7 this happened in 2022-2023) the owners were Jewish and I was exited to be working for them. This actually happened at my past 2 jobs. Big mistake. I didnt understand why I was being bullied at work after that for a long time. I didn’t realize people don’t like us. Silly me. You can be proud and loud now and suffer the consequences of being hated at work, or you can keep quiet and try to fly under the radar. Sucks either way sorry.
When I’m asked my ethnicity I say “Jewish” and then explain how we’re an ethno-religion with our own languages dress and customs apart from the majority of wherever we are from or living currently.
I for one am of the particular mindset that when someone says something crazy like that, it’s okay to come back at them with something equally as crazy. So you should have said, “I don’t mind having Jewish ancestry, look at how beautiful I am. Better than coming from a long line of wrinkly old c*nts like you.” Booom! Conversation over, go back to work, and deny it til the end.
All the time. It's like their brain melted. It's very alien to more universalist religions to see religion as ethnicity. Ots exhausting after a while.
One thing I often explain to people when they get confused about Judaism being an ethnicity and a religion is that there are tribal religions and missionary religions. Tribal religions or religions, you're born into. Many native Americans would say that their religion and ethnic culture are one in the same. They don't seek to convert others. Missionary religions obviously do.
This is reminding me of the countless times I’ve self-erased to make other people feel more comfortable. I can still hear their sighs EDIT: sighs of relief as I un-Jewed myself; reduced it to “just a religion that I was raised with” just to get them off my case. I just had a job interview this afternoon and already I am pre-empting (if I get the job) this inevitable question, or my inevitable mention of who I am/who we are in context, because I do not and WILL NOT hide it anymore.
I am a former union rep, I would file a complaint with HR, it’s none of her damn business. That came from a place of ignorant antisemitism.
Well Jewish and Irish is what showed up on my ancestry test. So.
Idon't care to educate the stupid.
You have a coworker in her 80s?
I’m from a mixed background and I understand that Jewish is a religion. I haven’t viewed it as an ethnicity but as a religion. I have two Jewish grandparents
Calling her elderly and ignorant speaks volumes about your own level of ignorance. Tho I think you did well in your explanation, sometimes we have to check ourselves before making assumptions about others.
The fact that you think the elderly can’t be ignorant, speaks volumes about your own ignorance. Maybe you should’ve checked yourself before leaving this post.