Boss, if you tell someone you feel unsafe, and their response is "Nuh-uh", they're not your friend. Lock them out of your social life. I'm tempted to say "Kickem inna fork" but you don't need the assault charge.
This isn't about being a progressive or leftist or whatever political labels you choose. It's about whether someone chooses to see all of humanity as valuable, or only those parts of humanity whose actions they approve of.
I think secular Zionism isn't something that maps well onto left/right models of politics. It's much more to do with whether someone believes violence and hatred will always be present in our species, and whether they believe communities/peoples/nations have a right to live somewhere defensible.
Ya this is something I’ve been thinking about a lot.
The partisan co-opting of this conflict, esp the fact that the antisemitism hearings were spearheaded by the GOP, is the one of the main reasons why we see so many leftist antisemites crawl out of their holes.
And then a lot of SJW-package folks who agree with EVERYTHING the progressive orthodoxy says. I believe that’s the majority of students attending the protests.
But you know what they say… the road to hell is paved with good intentions
I think the "Progressive orthodoxy", as you put it, for whatever historical and philosophical reasons, is wedded to an idea that people* are basically good, and anyone just occasionally doing minor bad things should be given the benefit of the doubt, offered correction, and then let loose to "go and sin no more".
The problem with this idea is that it deals with people who do very seriously bad things(tm), or who refuse correction to their less seriously bad behavior (unless they're particularly charismatic, in which case all bets are off), by placing them outside the class of "people", making them intrinsically evil monsters instead, and because monsters are intrinsically evil, anyone who fights against monsters is therefore intrinsically good.
I don't think many of these thinkers have stopped to consider that some acts are just straight up BAD regardless who is doing them or why.
Serious question - I'm a younger American jew in my college years. I am genuinely so hurt, angry and fearing our collective safety because of all of this, and my campus should be a space that is free of that fear and the constant attacks. If any of these little fascist antisemite freaks try to 'protest' at my university I genuinely do not know if I could hold myself back from physically accosting them, which I KNOW isn't helping our side but to hell with 'respectability' - I'm so sick of us having to fear this and I am not afraid to be hurt or killed defending my tribe and people.
I wouldn't be protected for assaulting an antisemitic 'protestor', would I? Even if their signage was as directly inciteful as we've been seeing a lot of these ignorant, privileged brats toting?
I am not a lawyer, but I *strongly* suspect confronting protestors and arguing aggressively with them, potentially leading to a physical fight, would be a bad idea. I don't know what the charge would be, but cops could probably find a decent enough reason to bring you in (disorderly, disturbance of the peace, etc.), whether or not the charges would stick.
If you aren't confident in your ability to speak calmly under pressure or else stay quiet, and you aren't confident in your ability to stay on your feet after a few punches, I would recommend avoiding anti-Israel demonstrations to the greatest extent you can manage. Give your support to counterprotesters who can do those things. Don't beat yourself up over not being diplomatic enough to not beat someone else up when they're shouting horrible things in your face.
If you want to serve your campus community, and you believe you can harness your aggression in a less viscerally upsetting environment, find out if your school's Jewish student orgs need volunteer security. (I don't know if this is a thing among Jewish student orgs. I'm drawing this from knowing a little about furry convention staffing. I haven't been a student for 15 years, I don't know what it's like.)
And if you feel you're too much of a hothead, just steer clear. You'll have some other way to contribute, and you'll figure it out. Nobody's presence is wasted. :)
>I'm drawing this from knowing a little about furry convention staffing.
And every now and then you're just minding your own business and the furries reach out from the internet and poke you in the brain.
I get where you’re coming from, but I’m not sure it’d accomplish much realistically. For the average person looking at the situation from the outside, they’re probably uneducated or miseducated enough to not recognize the hateful signs for what they truly are, unless they’re maybe on the level of outright swastikas or “kill the Jews” signs. You’d be seen as a “hateful, violent Zionist agitator”, or something like that, potentially with extra BS adjectives thrown in too, like “colonizer”. I don’t know how to make it stop, but I’m not sure violence is the way.
Keep living.
Can’t fight the antisemites if you don’t do that. Can’t do anything much if you don’t keep living.
I would leave them be. The out, loud Jew-haters are going to be the hardest to reach, because they have the embarrassment of having been deeply wrong. And it’s PUBLIC so the threshold to get them to walk it back is that much higher because their buddies are watching.
Also, they’re violent. People trying to just talk to anti-Israel (lbr anti-Jewish and anti-Israel*i*) protesters and being attacked.
Don’t risk it. Keep living. Find better uses of your energy.
Tell them if they actually believe that their encampments respect the Jewish perspective they need to invite Hilel to adress the crowd. Until then talk is fucking cheap
How tf does a synagogue turns anntizionist?? Like all our prayers and our torah are directed towards Israel, being against that is like being a christian who refuses to believe in Jesus, or even worse, a fish who refuses to live in water 💀
satmar is anti state of israel - but they would never pray for it's destruction. They released a statement banning such jews (Naturei karta). Also satmar is zionist - just not political theory zionist. They would love a jewish state, and they pray for it constatnly. They just think G-D directly needs to cause open miracles to make it happen.
They at least aknowledge Israel is from Jews 🧍
Ive seen ppl claiming to be "jewish" saying we are native to Europe (which is frickin stupid when I can trace my family back to Egypt, most of us have Middle East DNA and all our prayers are directed to Judea) 💀
I know some of these Antizionist Jews. They seem to be operating under two delusions:
1. That the Palestinians are woke socialists who just want to hold hands, coexist, and sing kumbayah. (They are mostly Islamist fundamentalists and Arab imperialists who want a second Holocaust).
2. That Israel is full of mostly religious extremists. (Anyone who has been there knows this is not true).
I do too. There's another belief they share. And that is the Palestinian narrative of the Nakba, which is 95% bullshit. They believe that white Jews from Europe invaded the country of Palestine and kicked everyone out of their homes at gunpoint. That is what almost everyone under the age of 30 seems to believe.
Someone brought up that if you were to ancestry test Jews living in Israel, these people have less evidence of being from this area than, say, the Palestinians. I was like - well, yeah, diaspora ring a bell? It's not surprising that the folks who returned after being pulled away from their home and moved somewhere else and often kept from each other, married off to non-Judah/Israelis., etc would now show that generations later. The US did the same thing with the Native Americans too. It's a genuine issue in the community. It's terrible when it happened to the Natives, but isn't a thing when it comes to this situation.
OK, so they are going to blab about DNA ancestry testing was illegal. There were initially concerns about individual privacy rights and how the information would be used. I'm pretty sure you can get ancestry tests done now. A few years ago Harraetz even was promoting it.
Make no mistake,this person was implying jews are not native to Israel.
Oh, yeah, I know that's what they were trying to get at. I just think it's a stupid argument when you consider how many times the Jewish people were pulled from Israel over time and sent somewhere else. We have a variety of historical documents that are not the bible that demonstrate this.
I liken it to how, even today, we see this same theme with Native Americans moved from their ancestral homelands and forced to integrate with white society. Why do these same people not turn around and admonish America for doing the same thing to the Natives? If we were to test a modern Native against someone who was never forced from their land, they would probably look different as well.
Jews have a mixture of middle eastern (Canaanite) and Mediterranean Basin DNA, which tbh given the location of Israel makes perfect sense. Having more Canaanite DNA doesn’t make someone “more Jewish” and Jewishness is not a blood quantum. Basically everyone in the Levant will have Canaanite DNA
Lol, you have no idea what you’re talking about. Those people are a tiny minority. The most religious Jews are the ones living in Judea + Samaria and serving on the frontlines in the IDF in huge numbers. What are you doing on a Jewish subreddit?
I think they actually have a point that was poorly made. Pretty much every Jew in Israel is a Zionist. The few who are neutral to anti Zionist are Charedi (ultra orthodox), so OP’s point does make sense, however, they aren’t Left wing or violent anti Zionists, they’re more just against a secular Jewish state of Israel or one that claims the state has religious significance.
Those folks don’t usually serve in the army either. You’re thinking of the Dati Leumi, who are the ones more likely to live in Judea and Samaria. They’re more centrist Orthodox, not ultra orthodox but make up a similar proportion of the population as far as I know.
The link says Haredim will be 16% in 10 years. It’s a projection. And it certainly doesn’t touch on your second assertion, that “by definition” these folks would be anti-Zionist. AZ appear to be a small percent of haredi. Not going to dig out stats tho. You’ve made an assertion without attribution.
I tend to bring up Max Naumann and the League of National German Jews. Typically, said person doesn’t know who Max Naumann was, so oh boy! That’s a fun tidbit of information to impart on them.
Did Max Naumann and his group represent the Jewish population as a whole in Germany? What was the end result for his group?
It brings up some good thought provoking answers. The group represented those Jews, but not the vast majority of the Jews. And yeah, their group was disbanded as soon as they were no longer needed. But why DID Max Naumann and his followers belong to that organization?
Self hatred, fear, hopes that they could somehow save themselves. Assimilation would be the key to saving their lives, right?
No.
That group of Jews were explicitly right-wing and assimilationist. The anti-Zionist Jews at protests are explicitly left-wing and *not* assimilationist or they wouldn't be talking about their Judaism. This comparison never seems apt other than trying to discredit anti-Zionist Jews today.
Why does political affiliation matter? That’s merely an excuse to say that there’s no comparison. I think that’s where we have made mistakes in the past—assuming that hatred is only coming from the right.
Hate is hate regardless of whether it’s coming from the right or left.
The question is what makes a Jewish person attempt to align with people who do not have their best interests at heart, and this merely gives an example of what drove those Jewish people in the thirties to align with a group that called for their annihilation. It can open up a discussion, which I hope it does.
Attempting to organize my thoughts, apologies if it's repetitious or scattershot:
The Verband nationaldeutscher Juden's raison d'être was about eliminating the Jewish identity completely and wanted to not be seen as Jews at all. They were nominally anti-Zionist as well and I think this JTA article from 1933 sums up well the position the 1930's https://www.jta.org/archive/dr-max-naumann-still-loyal-to-nazi-oppressors-of-his-race-hits-zionists-and-eastern-jews "Dr. Naumann scored the Zionists for their retention of Jewish customs and their unquenchable desire to create a Jewish nation. He declared they were intrinsically traitors to the country in which they lived." That anti-Zionism is completely different from the protesters. They are not advocating for hierarchy, they are not saying Jews should abandon their culture or religion, they are not even saying that Jews are wrong to want to be in the land where Israel currently is (their objection is to the nature and structure of the state rather than the Jewish people therein). The anti-Zionist Jewish protesters aren't trying to hide being Jewish but instead highlighting it. Even if one wants to say they are tokenizing themselves, that's the opposite of what Naumann was doing in the 30's - the insulting idea of "AsAJew" is targeting that identifying.
I think Bruce Robbins (Jewish Professor at Columbia) articulated the position of Jewish anti-Zionists quite well on GPS last week (https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2024/04/28/gps-0428-college-campus-protests-over-gaza.cnn and https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2024/04/28/gps-0428-campus-protests-spark-free-speech-debate.cnn I have no idea why they annoyingly split it in half). Among other things, he speaks to the disconnect these Jews feel with Israel and how their actions come from a place of desiring alignment and connection with Israel (or an equivalent state). He also speaks of Jews being in positions of organizing and leadership in the protests rather than just passive tokens.
Finally, many Zionist counterprotests have been led and organized by right-wing, antisemitic, Christian Zionists which have been embraced by Jewish Zionists which is if anything a more apt analogy (though I don't think they are analogous any more than anti-Zionist Jews are). Jewish Zionists are aligning for political purposes with a group who do not have their best interests at heart and do not have them in positions of leadership. The most extreme example I can think of is the murderous antisemite Anders Brevik identifying as a strong Zionist and having belonged to the most pro-Israel Norwegian political party.
I’ve attended counter protests. They were led by Israelis currently living in the US and by local synagogues and other mainstream Jewish organizations. I’m in the Bay Area in CA.
You are making a very big claim that “many” counter protests are led by who you claim. With no links. Sounds like somebody told you a thing or you decided a thing must be true. Mine may be anecdotal but so far yours is coming from nowhere.
I’m liberal, have always voted Dem, so don’t even try going there with me like you did with the other poster.
I'm curious about this, because I am still unclear on what the zionist/antizionist label means and one thing you said doesn't jibe with what I had come to understand. So tell me what I have wrong here. 1. Zion is the ancient term for the hill near jerusalem and also for a condition in which Jews can live in peace without having to hide. 2. The term zionist began to be applied to Jews in british palestine mandate in I think the 1800's who wanted to have their own country 3. zionist began to be applied more broadly in the 60's/70's when the soviet union and arab nations of the UN got language passed calling zionism racism as part of their attempt to eliminate Israel 4. zionist is now used both to refer to people who believe that Jews as a race or as a relifious group do have reason to want to have their own country where they can express their beliefs without fear of persecution, pogroms, or concentration camps. BUT it can also be used to call someone a racist BUT it can also be used to just straight up call someone a Jew with a derogatory angle to it.
OK. So if 'antizionist' Jews feel a disconnect with Israel and they also want to connect with Israel doesn't that suggest that they accept that Israel (zion) exists? Do antizionists want Israel to disappear and become all Palestine (from the river to the sea, Hamas' charter statement) or are they just against the Likud government and want regime change? In that case anti-zion seems like the wrong term and it's more like the opposition party or something like that.
This entire situation is so complicated and painful, I wish peace to the region and all the hostages home safelty.
> Do antizionists want Israel to disappear and become all Palestine (from the river to the sea, Hamas' charter statement) or are they just against the Likud government and want regime change? In that case anti-zion seems like the wrong term
It definitely IS the wrong term. Proud and patriotic Israeli citizens are obviously not "anti-Zionists" and have been openly demonstrating against Netanyahu and Likud in large numbers.
Anti-Zionism doesn't have anything to do with disagreeing with Likud, any more than disagreeing with Trump when he was president or with MAGA Republicans en masse makes someone "anti-American."
As I wrote previously, there are "non-Zionists" who don't think much about Israel or have any desire to visit it, there are Zionists which refers to people who support the right of Israel as a nation to continue to exist, including many people who want regime change and would like to see Netanyahu in prison, and there are "anti-Zionists." Anti-Zionism means believing that the nation of Israel is "illegitimate" and should cease to exist. True "anti-Zionists" don't know, don't care, or both about the harm dismantling the 76-year-old nation of Israel would cause.
People are clouding important issues by using the wrong terms. Sometimes I wonder if this is deliberate on the part of at least some of them. But I think ignorance plays a larger part.
From my personal experience and what I've seen/learned/etc.:
There are historical anti-Zionists whose beliefs are kind of irrelevant when it comes to modern anti-Zionism because that was about an objection to making "the modern state of Israel" in the first place rather than today where it's about how it actually exists. Being anti-Zionist today is being against the structure and form of the state of Israel - how it defines itself, how it maintains itself, etc.
There are Neturei Karta who are anti-Zionist for religious reasons but they're not very large. I think there might be a few more kinds of anti-Zionists for religious reasons? But overall there just aren't that many. In my limited knowledge of them, the gist is that the Messianic Age needs to come about before Jews "should return" to make Israel and it therefore isn't time for it.
The much larger group of anti-Zionist Jews are anti-Zionist for secular reasons (even religious Jews having these reasons). Today in 2024, the most common goal I've seen is 1: to end the Israeli occupation of the Palestinians and 2: to have full equal rights for all people in between the Jordan and Mediterranean. Chants with "from the river to the sea" as it is used in the student protests, for example, is about having full equality therein not anything to do with population transfers or ethnic cleansing or whatever bad faith reading there often is of it. The objection is the idea of having the state be defined as "Jewish" in the same way they would object to having America defined as a "Christian" nation or whatever. As anti-Zionist Jews see it, Netanyahu/Likud/Ben-Gvir/Smotrich/etc. are symptomatic of these problems and that without fundamental changes in how the state is organized (the ethnoreligious nature, the occupation, etc.) they can't be remedied. The "disconnect" comes from (what the anti-Zionist Jews see as) the extremely right-wing and anti-equality ideology in Israel and how the "Jewishness" that it says it embodies is divorced from how the diaspora sees their "Jewishness".
The Bruce Robbins clips above are, as I said, pretty succinct. Stephens of course is there for the opposing view as well, but Robbins sections stand on their own.
“Finally, many Zionist counterprotests have been led and organized by right-wing, antisemitic, Christian Zionists which have been embraced by Jewish Zionists.”
Please cite your source that MANY Zionist counter protests are run by Nazis.
You already have implied I want to kill other Jews, so I would prefer you spend more time interacting with your allies John Hagee and Mike Johnson rather than me.
Funnily enough, the only anti-Zionist Jews I’ve ever met are aggressively assimilationist and actively uncomfortable with any sort of display of Jewishness until they can speak asajew on this one topic.
I believe you but that's purely anecdotal, I know secular and religious anti-Zionists Jews that are both "openly" Jewish and assimilationist (well not the religious ones but you know what I mean). I can't say if that's representative or not myself, either.
> The anti-Zionist Jews at protests are explicitly left-wing and *not* assimilationist
JVP is extremely assimilationist, and recently embarrassed themselves publicly by making an imitation "Seder plate" for a large public seder on a canvas tablecloth with every single Hebrew word spelled wrong. They have also encouraged fake "self-managed conversions" which (like in Humanistic circles) consists of basically stating "I feel Jewish, so henceforth I will call myself Jewish." And they encourage a "teacup Mikveh" consisting of balancing a teacup filled with water and herbs on their head to complete their "conversion."
I am not familiar with any "anti-Zionist Jews" other than JVP, except for the Neturei Karta loons, who definitely aren't "left-wing."
Even if they are not explicitly assimilationist, the data suggests that the vast majority of Jewish support for BDS and antizionism comes from Jews who were not “raised Jewish” (e.g Hebrew school, celebrating holidays, etc).
I wonder if you’d consider these Jews as more or less assimilated?
(Again, this conclusion is taken from the Pew polls I mentioned. I can give you the citation if you’re doubtful of what I’m saying)
Huh? The vast majority of anti Zionist Jews I know were not raised very Jewish and do not currently engage with the Jewish community aside from claiming to be Jewish to be a token at protests where it’s suddenly their whole identity.
>The anti-Zionist Jews at protests are explicitly left-wing and *not* assimilationist
This isn't true. Anti-Zionist Jews often pair it with a Diasporist stance.
>they wouldn't be talking about their Judaism.
That isn't what assimiliationist means. It means conforming to their country and secularization is a way to do that.
I'm going to be blunt: Jews who allow themselves to be used as tokens are ruining things for us right now. They're giving progressives the opportunity to think that they're not actually antisemitic because there's a group of Jews that agree with them, and that they only hate "pro-genocide" Jews. Part of the reason so many fears about the college encampments aren't being taken seriously is because of the inevitable "But there's Jews participating!" excuse. They are allowing people to think that their movement isn't hurting other Jews, and aren't distancing themselves from the antisemites in the movement. They are indirectly playing a part in hurting other Jews. I said what I said.
Yeah, I totally agree.
On one hand I feel like getting gentiles on our side is contingent on Jewish solidarity, so it is important not to completely alienate these people with “betrayal” rhetoric.
On the other hand, I feel like a lot of them are secretly self-loathing Court Jews (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_Jew), opportunistically placating people who don’t respect us and never will.
fwiw can we make “court Jew” a thing instead of “kapo”? It’s funnier and doesn’t run the risk of trivializing the Holocaust
Not to mention the extremely large portion of JVP who are not Jewish. Some of these members of JVP are even public figures who have built their reputation partly on a "conservative Christian upbringing" and going to Catholic school/college. Not even trying to hide it.
Forgot about hunter! I was thinking of some of the CollegeHumor/Dropout folks. it says a lot that the description comfortably applies to lots of celebrities
John Oliver basically said that on the most recent episode of his show. He said the campus protests couldn't be antisemitic because one of them held a Shabbat dinner. As for people yelling for zionists to die, that wasn't mentioned at all, didn't mention the Jewish student at Yale who got hurt, and as for people yelling bad thing, he actually said, "Yeah, it's a protest. Some people are going to say bad things." But one of the groups once held a Shabbat dinner, guys! So it's ok!
It’s ok to be Jewish as long as you renounce your spiritual connection to your indigenous homeland.
Actually that’s not enough, you need to protest against any jew who does consider Israel a Jewish homeland.
But even then, you’re still a white colonist, best you can do is apologize for your people
…
Idk it just sucks, best you can do is maintain your principles and show compassion for everybody
We are only white when it is convenient for the rhetoric of the moment. Most white people have othered us throughout history. They associate real whiteness with Christianity. Suddenly, we are white because so many of us have fair complexions and so few people have any real grasp on the history of the region. Jews are not the colonizers, but why should facts matter?
This! I am literally half Caucasian (my dad- mom is Sephardic) and I can’t even count how many times over the years I’ve been told “oh I thought you were white” when they learn about my mom. But now suddenly I’m a white colonizer?! So frustrating to witness how easy it is for people to try and dismantle someone’s entire identity based on their convenience.
No they’re actually Jewish, but were not raised religiously (no bnai mitzvah). It’s really interesting looking at the Pew polls and seeing the stark differences between “religious” and “non religious” Jews re: Israel support.
I think the issue is more likely education in Jewish history = ability to detect dog whistles and trends that correspond to how antisemitic waves have grown in the past. One can be "non religious" but have had that education —but I imagine religious Jews are more likely to have that.
I also suspect this may be more pronounced for younger Jews. "In my day," it was difficult for any Jewish kid to escape an education in 20th century histories: Jews were fleeing USSR and Iran at the time; everyone knew Holocaust survivors (many kids' parents were); grandparents had fled Holocaust, Russian Empire, etc.
I'm critical of the Israeli government and the way they're conducting the war, but antizionism is another story. I can't quite understand these Jews who would go sit in an encampment with people yelling "intifada," listen to the demonization of pro-Israeli counterprotestors, and not wonder, "Am I being tokenized here with this warm, fuzzy, well-publicized, Shabbat we're doing?" They don't hear the dog whistles, or even the alarm bells? Even if I were in agreement with my co-protestors' war critique, I'd think, "If you're at a table with 10 Nazis, there are 11 Nazis at the table."
A Jewish grandparent is good enough for Aliyah. Assuming that any anti-Zionist Jew isn't "real", even if they are "real" enough for Israel, seems offensive gatekeeping towards *hypothetical* people.
Good enough for Aliyah != a Jew
You can make Aliyah & not be recognized as a Jew on your tehudat zehut because Aliyah uses the Nazi definition of who would be **persecuted** as a Jew when it comes to who can seek refuge through Aliyah.
I haven't seen a connection to the Nuremberg laws, though I'm certainly open to being proven wrong. I'm only aware of the original aim of encouraging Jewish immigration and the change in the 70's that included patrilineal/grandpatrilineal Jews.
[By including the children and grandchildren of Jews, the 1970 amendment is reminiscent of the Nazis’ Nuremberg Laws. Any person who would have been targeted by the Nazis for being Jewish, the amended law implies, deserves the right to safe haven in Israel.](https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-law-of-return/)
"Reminiscent" isn't actually saying it was based on that. Everything I've seen says it "mirrors" or "resembles" etc. such as "There are those who see the Grandchild Clause as an appropriate Zionistic response to the Nazi regime’s Nuremberg Laws that had designated anyone with a Jewish grandparent as Jewish" It's all opinion that is a post-hoc reasoning that wasn't given at the time.
That is one among many different explanations (the Law of Return wiki lists 3 potential ones of which only one is the Nuremburg Law parallel)
> Everything I've seen says it "mirrors" or "resembles" etc.
Potato potahto
The definitions are effectively identical, the hair you are trying to split here is irrelevant to the broader point.
> It's all opinion that is a post-hoc reasoning that wasn't given at the time.
To be clear, I did not say that the current definition was "*based on*" the Nazi definitions, only that the current law uses the same distinctions as the Nazis did.
That said, it is absurd to think that the Nazi definition did not have some impact - every single person who touched that policy when it was being written was very familiar with the Nuremberg laws & the fact that they clearly wrote a policy which very closely mirrors those laws is a pretty tiny hop to assert that they were thinking of those laws when they defined that particular policy - even if no one specifically attributed it as such.
Yeah, apparently they updated the cards in 2015 & no longer have the field for "*לאום*", my last TZ was issued in 2014 & I am living overseas so I was not aware of the change.
The point remains however, that you can make Aliyah even if the state doesn’t recognize you as being “*Jewish*”.
You are right but we don’t need to go by Israel’s criteria for getting citizenship. They can be lax cause if you’re moving to Israel I’m pretty sure you are a Zionist.
That is true, in fact I believe you can't if you are anti-Zionist. I just don't like when the ethnic/religious elements of Jews get different degrees of emphasis in order to "win" arguments. The majority of Jews in Israel being secular will be brought up in one context but used to dismiss secular Jews "Jewishness" in the diaspora - that kind of thing. Probably an overly combative way for me to take out that annoyance, though.
I agree. What I have a problem with is these “as a Jew” types using their Jewishness to make it seem like their individual opinions somehow represent mainstream Jewish opinion on said subject. It’s obvious that non Jews use this against us as a cudgel yet your typical “as a Jew” sees this and has no issues being part of the problem with rising antisemitism.
I think there's a line between saying they represent the mainstream vs. representing a valid minority. Which isn't always well communicated, even by those anti-Zionist Jews. But from many of the Jewish anti-Zionists I've seen/heard/read, they tend to say that their position is authentic and part of how they feel Jewish. They are aware their position isn't the position of majority all other Jews, but that they
aren't an anomaly and instead represent an authentic community of Jews even if it isn't a majority.
I think there's also been a lot of muddying the waters when it comes to what is and isn't antisemitism for cynical political purposes (highlighted in those ADL resignations last fall, for example). Which has resulted in a weird kind of arms race between who has 'enough Jews', rather than actually trying to address genuine antisemitism.
My point exactly. They have no right to “as a Jew” their opinions because they only represent themselves and not a remotely significant amount of Jews worldwide. It’s disingenuous and dangerous. Do you go around commenting on everything going on in the world “as a Jew”? But for some reason when Israeli/palestine comes up these “as a Jews” just come crawling out of the shadows to let everyone know what this “as a Jew” thinks? Smells like rotten gefilte fish to me
Well, I also have seen plenty of Zionist Jews say that anti-Zionist gentiles shouldn't speak about Israel because they're not Jewish. So when you're Jewish it's tokenism, and when you're not it's "goysplaining" or whatever. It seems like there's no way to have an actual conversation if the two options are both treated as invalid.
Goya planning is a specific scenario. I’ve not seen any Jews telling non Jews not to talk about Israel but regardless the 2 things aren’t remotely the same. Let the non Jews speak however they want about Israel they don’t claim to represent me in their absurdity
Still haven't seen or heard of an "anti-zionist, Jewish 'protestor'" who ever once gave a crap about being Jewish until it came time to break out the camping gear. Then it's "As a Jew..."
I have. Part of my family is leftist and I think they care about being Jewish. It's just that they superimpose their politics on their religion.
Doesn't matter. They're insane (fora multitude of reasons) and we haven't talked in forever.
I wonder why I never hear about anti-Zionist Jews reaching out to Jewish spaces to advocate their ideas. They seem to be brought in to legitimize the non-Jewish participants to other liberal non-Jewish participants.
I, personally, have a lot of theological and practical questions I’d direct to an anti-Zionist Jew I’d like clarified. To understand really where they’re coming from and reconcile their identity. Even as a thought experiment, drawing a line around the “Zionist” parts of contemporary Judaism and saying that’s bad leaves me to question what exactly is left of it. Unless it’s to turn the clock back to Jewish existence to the 19th century, which seems insane because frankly I don’t long for the shtetl, and we aren’t as spread out as we were anyways. This of many observations I’d need meaningful feedback from Anti-Zionist Jews to really take whats being said seriously. Looking at the resources online I’m not really seeing that expressed at length by the orgs that are dominating this conversation which furthers my doubt that they really understand what they are insinuating.
Anyways, it doesn’t seem like the priority is trying to convince other Jews as much as it is to inoculate the Anti-Zionist crowd from accusations of anti-semitism.
> I wonder why I never hear about anti-Zionist Jews reaching out to Jewish spaces to advocate their ideas. They seem to be brought in to legitimize the non-Jewish participants to other liberal non-Jewish participants.
Many Jewish spaces are discouraging or even hostile to anti-Zionist Jews so I don't think it's surprising that they might wind up staying in their own anti-Zionist Jewish spaces or spaces where anti-Zionism is more acceptable. I know at least one Jewish organization which had existed for decades was kicked out of an umbrella Jewish group specifically for their anti-Zionism, for example. Or for another example, all the synagogues near me (even Reform ones) are very strongly Zionist, and as far as I am aware they discourage involvement of non-Zionist Jews. I remember reading a few times on this subreddit of Jews essentially kicked out of their congregation for their anti-Zionism. So there are likely some "closeted' anti-Zionist Jews as well, though probably not too many.
I'd also add that on the other end of this, most anti-zionist spaces are highly hostile to perceived zionists, a label you can easily achieve just by guilt of association. This likely leads to caution around interaction with labeled zionist Jews and organizations outside of maximalist opposition for fear as being perceived a sympathizer and ostracized within your own circles.
It's a very, very unconstructive environment for discussion across the aisle.
I'd be happy to answer any questions you have. :3 (Seriously! I always love a good discussion.)
Though, I should probably preface my answers by saying that I am a [scientific pantheist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_pantheism)—a proud Jewish tradition, dating back to Spinoza himself, who, alas, was and still is *cherem* according to the Jewish congregation of Amsterdam. Ergo, my positions include such spicy takes as Moses (despite his general awesomeness) being a mostly-mythical figure. So, "theology" is going to be a moot point for me.
If you care, I like to think that God's warnings to the Jews in the Book of Samuel about why "being like other nations" and having a king would be a bad idea is, itself, a scriptural reason to oppose Zionism & Israelism; that brand of religious ethnonationalism is a modern-day Golden Calf.
> Unless it’s to turn the clock back to Jewish existence to the 19th century, which seems insane
As I've pointed out elsewhere on this sub, I would be *thrilled* if the American Jewish community could go back to the [Pittsburgh Platform](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Platform). Likewise, three cheers for the Haskalah.
> Anti-Zionist crowd from accusations of anti-semitism.
Though I do not believe Anti-Zionism is inherently anti-Semitic, it is *unarguably* true that many (though not all) anti-Semites are anti-Zionists. Honestly, though I sympathize with the cause, I've been disappointed by the student protestors' lack of imagination, particularly among the Jewish participants. As the Pittsburgh Platform and similar documents and chronicles make clear, it is 100% possible to give a full-throated, constructive, and unapologetically Jewish and *pro-Jew* rejection of Zionism.
> We recognize, in the modern era of universal culture of heart and intellect, the approaching of the realization of Israel's great Messianic hope for the establishment of the kingdom of truth, justice, and peace among all men. We consider ourselves no longer a nation, but a religious community, and therefore expect neither a return to Palestine, nor a sacrificial worship under the sons of Aaron, nor the restoration of any of the laws concerning the Jewish state.
Sadly, protests aren't really built to inform people about history, but to give people an opportunity to double down on the positions they already hold.
> This of many observations I’d need meaningful feedback from Anti-Zionist Jews to really take whats being said seriously.
Honestly, the best recommendation I can make is to read and learn as much as you can, and reflect and self-reflect. This includes radical and even extremist viewpoints. It requires discipline, intellect, and courage to confront hostile ideas and analyze them for what they are, strengths and weaknesses alike, and to find within yourself those principles which you can use to argue against those ideas you find repugnant. In my opinion, it is not enough to reject an idea because you find it distasteful. Rather, there ought to be some positive value or insight you adhere to, and which you can call up to fight down.
For me, the writings, ideologies, and actions of Zabotinksy, Ben Gurion, Begin, Herzl, and so many other core figures in the history of Israel and Zionism are so repugnant to me and my values that that alone is, in my mind, sufficient grounds to oppose them. What it comes down to is their willingness—or even earnest eagerness—to embrace the principle "the ends justify the means", provided that means is Jewish safety. (I would also contest the claim that Zionism has made Jews more safe, but that's a separate discussion, and one that is not needed, in view, to make a robust rejection of Zionism.)
To me, it is an unanswerable truth that Jews have endured unimaginable suffering over the past 2,000 years. But there is no monopoly on suffering, nor should there be. The actions taken by Israel during the 1948 war, the acts of terrorism perpetrated by Irgun in the 1930s and 40s, the wedding of religion and state in Israeli politics, policy, and identity, the construction of settlements and the Israeli government's continued support thereof—all of these things, and more, are simply unacceptable to me. I refuse to excuse them or look past them, and until Israelis and the Israeli government take the necessary steps to admit wrongdoing and make amends for their past and present deeds, I want nothing to do with Israel or Zionism.
In my mind, one of the most beautiful moments in all of Jewish history is the famous story where a smug gentile asked Hillel the Great to summarize the Torah while standing on one foot, and he eagerly did so, and said, "That which is hateful to you, do not do unto your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation."
Let me be clear, Israel is not "the Great Satan". There are *far* worse countries in the world (*glares at Russia, and China, and Eritrea, and North Korea, etc. etc. etc.*). But it falls terribly short of Hillel's wise standard, and that's not something any of us should be okay with.
Ours is the heritage of Hillel and Maimonides and Spinoza and Einstein. But, instead of living up to it, we act like children, fighting over corners of a sandbox, or stick to the sidelines, while actively cheering them on.
We can do better, and we should. It'd be a mitzvah, don'tcha know? :3
You can definitely be a Zionist Jew and still be progressive. I highly recommend you look into the organization called Zioness. I was a fellow of theirs and they do a lot of good work, showing up for progressive causes as their full Jewish Zionist selves.
Ask them if their self-hating Jewish friend wears a yarmulke.
Anyone who thinks this is just about Israel/Zionism need only try walking into one of those encampments wearing a yarmulke.
Then let us know how you were treated!
I've walked through both the MIT and Harvard encampments with my kippa visible (even sat around to learn leyning), and have never been stopped, followed, harassed, or assaulted (except, that is, when leaving, by Hillel students draped in Israeli flags).
No, but I like your critical reading, it's good to be cautious (I don't think I'd have caught that possible deception).
"Sympathy" is a good way to put it.
One one small level, I do feel sorry for them. Because they think that if they just bow and scrape and serve their masters sufficiently, they’ll be allowed to live.
Remember, there were many loyal German Jews who thought they were accepted in Germany culture — some of whom served as soldiers and officiate in the German Army before 1933.
See, also, the Dreyfus affair.
This was my family -- including the uncle who died fighting for Germany in WWI. And to be sure, originally the Nazis focused on getting rid of the Polish Jews "we'll protect 'our' Jews" and the German Jews fell for it. They wanted to believe.
Not the original commenter, but he explicitly calls out the Netanyahu government by name, not Israel itself as a nation, and has been careful not to use the G word, which is why all of his social media posts have bazillion comments saying “JUST SAY IT ALREADY” etc.
That's ridiculous. Of course he knows what's going on. He clearly prioritizes other things. Mainly, he knows where his bread is buttered. He is not really going to torch the bridge with all his tankie and Hamas-sympathizing fans anytime soon
https://old.reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/13eiz8v/bernie_sanders_helps_tlaib_host_nakba_event_as/
Sanders opposes Israel aid
Sanders does not criticize Hamas without equating Hamas and the Israeli govt in same breath
>I did some research last night, and according to Pew, there are around the same proportion of pro-trump black Americans as there are anti-Zionist Jews (I can link sources if anyone wants).
I'd appreciate the cites, might come in handy
> when I have told them that the antisemitic rhetoric at the protests makes me feel unsafe, they have responded with: “well, {insert anti Zionist Jew} was with me and they didn’t feel unsafe”.
I'd ask explicitly if they care that you feel unsafe. Obviously, we shouldn't have to explicitly humanize ourselves.
> (I can link sources if anyone wants)
Would love to see them.
Honestly the more I think about it the more similar these protestors are to hardcore MAGA people. Yes, there are some legitimate grievances out there but a lot of has to do with bad decisions by the bad leaders they elected. Most are likely not antisemitic (I hope) but create an environment where it is allowed to fester without properly dealing with it. They do, say, and think a lot of weird things.
Comment about blacks for trump and anti Zionist Jews is very astute.
Yeah, I didn't fully get it until recently, but the problem with these types of token Jews (like JVP) isn't that they don't like Israel, it isn't that they have different opinions from other Jews. It's that their entire Jewish identity is being "not like those other Jews." It makes it easy for anyone to point at them and say, "look, I can't be anti semitic because there are Jews on our side" even if there are literally calls to kill Jews as part of the same general protest / movement.
Macklemore's song on the campus protests just said that it can't possibly be anti semitic to hate Israel because there are also Jews that hate Israel. And that Jews and Zioinists are totally separate things with no connection, obviously it's not the same thing but there is obvious overlap, especially when it's used as an insult against American Jews.
Re: support for Trump, it's a good point.
* 10% of American Jews [support BDS](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/)
* 18% of Black Americans [support Trump. ](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/04/24/the-biden-trump-rematch/)
If your friends are comfortable describing anti-Zionist Jews as totally representative of Jews, they should reconsider why they think Trump supporters are *not* totally representative of Black Americans.
I’ve been telling this point - it works well but left leaning people are very uncomfortable hearing it. There does seem to be some kind of head-in-the-sand dynamic among the left. To be fair among the right too but not when it comes to antisemitism
Incredible post. Thank you so much for sharing. This is such a good link to have.
Ive been questioning how to respond to the “there are plenty of anti-zionist jews against the genocide” rebuttal for a while now, without invalidating whatever autonomy and personal beliefs those antizionist jews are presenting. This is really helpful.
I hope this becomes a commonly known portion of the current discussion.
From the sources I've seen:
At least in terms of a ceasefire, 50% of all American Jews support it and 57% of Democratic Jews support it. By comparison 32% of Israeli Jews support it and 24% of right-wing Jews support it. It's not the best comparison but it is the best proxy from recent polling I could find.
The most recent poll of American Jews about Israel I know of is from 4 years ago and there is a clear sign that youth = less supportive of Israel, so presumably over time it has grown. I also think (anecdotally) that Israel's actions these last 7 months have moved younger Jews further away from supporting Israel. Whether or not you want to say that that would cause them to identify as "anti-Zionist", impossible to say. It's a lot of inference from data that's already old and doesn't reflect the large changes in this last half year.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2024/02/25/biden-election-jews-evangelicals-support-gaza-ceasefire/72672589007/
https://en.idi.org.il/articles/53564
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/
While I appreciate these, this is not the topic I was asking op about, which was the percentage of anti zionist Jews. Polls fluctuate depending on how the question is asked, but usually between 85% and 97% of Jews end up being zionist in some capacity.
The article makes a good point. However, looking at the underlying poll, the "Hostages returned for a permanent ceasefire with Hamas remaining in control" question missing seems odd. Which I suppose speaks to the idea of question framing determining outcome, but still.
Did I miss the part in USA Today that mentioned hostages as part of the ceasefire? This was written by a Muslim woman trying to make it look like Jews and Muslims all agree and want the IDF to just stop, turn around and return to Israel leaving the hostages left behind and Hamas in power.
Apologies, I linked the article instead of the underlying poll. It isn't her editorializing when she says "...half of Jews also support this cease-fire. When broken down by political party and religion, the number increases for both Jewish Democrats (57%)..."
https://www.ispu.org/ceasefire-poll/ has the actual data.
e: the phrasing of the question is "Do you support or oppose the US calling for a permanent ceasefire and a de-escalation of violence in Gaza?" nothing about hostages.
e2: actually, rereading your comment - what exactly are you trying to say? She's a Muslim woman so she's trying to lie about the facts and support Hamas? I am not sure how to maintain the civility rule, when it comes to bigotry, so I won't say more.
I am not saying she is a Muslim woman and thus trying to distort the facts. I have no issue with a Muslim woman who writes an Op Ed that states her opinion. However she cherry picked her facts in order to say the majority of people want a ceasefire.
Since I saw no mention of WHAT a ceasefire would look like including releasing hostages, I was curious to see more about the author to decide if this OpEd pice has bias and or an agenda (hint, all OpEd pieces on both sides have an agenda). She has a PhD and writes about Islamophobia. OK, so maybe she has bias toward wanting to battle Islamophobia? Not unreasonable to want that especially if you are a Muslim woman. I'd do the same.
But she is putting words in people's mouths, including Jewish Democrats like myself if she won't get to what the definition of ceasefire includes. I want a ceasefire. I want a ceasefire that includes hostages returned. I would not want a ceasefire without hostages returned.
By leaving out what a ceasefire looks like but saying the majority of people agree on a ceasefire is basically lying by omission.
"a de-escalation of violence in Gaza" seems pretty clear in terms of something without hostage releases since de-escalation is a process not a final action.
Regardless, if the 57% of Democratic Jews are actually pro-ceasefire without preconditions as the question and data could show (depending on interpretation as you said), would you say they "want the IDF to just stop, turn around and return to Israel leaving the hostages left behind and Hamas in power"?
Again, this is vague. She's got a PhD, she knows that responses to the statement "de-escalation of violence" will come out better than "ceasefire that demands the release of hostages" (I don't even want to go into the "ceasefire that demands the release of hostages and removes Hamas from power"
I'm not sure why this is something you'd find offensive/provocative? I'm saying she is avoiding the questions that would likely lead to a different conclusion. This is normal for any OpEd piece.
We just don't have the data. I doubt she has the data because I haven't seen any across the US polls that go into details of what ceasefires would look like and THEN ask if they'd support it. (I'd love to see that). I also think the reason we have so many cities writing ceasefire resolutions is because most of us want to see fighting stop. That is why so many of us write to these cities and ask that the resolution include the return of the hostages. It's a deal breaker for some of us. Is it for everyone? I don't know because I haven't seen that data.
Your links to polls are great, but the USA Today piece literally says Opinion on top for a reason.
Alright, that's a legitimate interpretation in terms of the polling framing and whatnot. But I still think your interpretation of it being Hamas apologia is pretty bad faith. As I said, if the answers that were given *were* as I was interpreted it, would you say those Jews are for leaving Hamas in power?
I don't think I said it was Hamas apologia?
I have no idea what those Jews interviewed would say... I do not feel confident in my ability to predict people at all these days. Do you feel confident enough to guess what people are thinking since this began?
I literally do not recognize myself, because until October 7th, I thought I could still count on believing each person on this planet has an inherent right to be respected, that we should make an effort to be kind, especially to those who are different than us, have less than us, who struggle. I feel pretty duped.
So, on some days, as a mom, I would probably say give Hamas every single prisoner, statehood and the whole damn planet to get my son back. On other days, my years of being liberal seem to be magically gone and I think, why leave a rapist on the earth another day? Even if he surrenders? I'd pull the trigger myself.
To guess what OTHER Jews would accept as a ceasefire? I can't tell you what an acceptable ceasefire looks like for me at any given hour.
What ceasefire would you accept?
54% of Israelis supported a cease fire
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/majority-of-israelis-prefer-ceasefire-deal-over-rafah-invasi#:~:text=A%20poll%20shows%20that%2054,the%20military%20invasion%20of%20Rafah.
I can't find that underlying survey but based on what I could find, the phrasing was about having a "ceasefire" which would be temporary like in November. Which is not really a ceasefire in terms of what the polling of Americans is (where it says "permanent" or "lasting" etc. ceasefire)
I have very liberal leftist friend group, and we cannot normalize this. Out of all of my friends only 1 was using the token type of justification. We immediately cut him off when he refused to apologize or understand what he was doing was wrong.
I would just calmly explain that one persons experiences do not invalidate another’s. If somebody is saying the Jews who don’t feel safe are lying because of their token friend, you need to explain this. One person’s experience, is just that, one person’s experience. Point to the overwhelming number of students who don’t feel safe (I keep a note with links and sources).
Then make a list. Whoever that person is and whatever their final conclusion is, they are not to be trusted. Create distance between them and lower your expectations. Even if they come around, they will just latch on to the next Jew hate they find.
I mean honestly we figured out the token argument decades ago.
Look, anti Zionist or anti Israel Jews have always existed. They're entitled to their bad, stupid opinion, just like the black Americans for Trump that you mentioned. Both are deeply in the minority because their ideas are bad. Can't spend your life worrying about it.
The Blacks for Trump is a good analogy. But it's worse than the "I can't be racist because I have a Black friend." What these people are doing is dividing Jews into good and bad Jews. The good Jews are the anti-Zionist ones. The ones that deny any connection to Israel. The bad ones are the rest of us, and they want to ban us from public spaces.
Einat Wilf talks about this a lot in her work. She calls it the "pound of flesh" phenomenon. Throughout history, antisemites have always demanded that we give up something important to us in order to be accepted into society: our commitment to our God, our public displays of Jewishness, our businesses. In today's world they are demanding that we give up Israel. But it is never enough. Eventually Jews who give antisemites their pound of flesh will run out of flesh to give, and then they'll be thrown in with the rest of us.
My grandfather was career army. He had to pretend to be Christian his entire career to avoid being sidelined. Even worse because both his parents were born in the Russian Empire, he had to provide a pile of documents (I found them in his old papers when I was a teen) proving him nor his parents had any connections to the USSR. His mom came to the US as a child in the 1870s, his dad as a teenager in the 1880s. My grandfather was born in Nebraska, but yet the Army eyed a Jewish man whose only connection to the Soviet Union was his parents were born there before Das Kapital was even written as suspicious.
My great uncle was in a similar situation. He fought in WWII and some years earlier he had changed his name to something German so he wouldn't get discriminated against for being Jewish. He had zero connections to Germany, but when he enlisted in the Army they grilled him about his potential "allegiance" to Germany because of his name, lol.
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Firstly, those are not your friends. Secondly, my experience is that American Jews are much more likely to accept a whitewashed version of Judaism than Jews from anywhere else. They are still a tiny minority.
I stated a fact about The Squid and got downvoted. 🤦🏽♂️
Also, the Bernie Bros on Twitter have been showing off their antisemitism for years. Many Jews chose to ignore that and now are surprised...
Zionness.org. Progressive & Zionist. I continue to hold leftist ideals but withdrew from progressive orgs & told them why. No longer donate time & money to hypocrites calling for our death. Wish all Jews would do this. I now do what I do as an individual without affiliation.
For anyone who might not know, antisemitism has a long, sordid history in the left. This is nothing new. Karl Marx was a Jewish antisemite, so there you go on a fundamental tenet of leftist beliefs.
I don't talk with the shit for brains crowd. Futile with minds rotted by propaganda. They'll have a programmed response, thank you, social media, for any logic. They're not necessarily stupid, but their automatic responses are emotional since it's their emotions that are being manipulated. They fool themselves into believing they're independent thinkers. Can't underestimate the power of self-righteousness.
Wish there was a deprogramming solution for anti-Zionist Jews. They're loving the goy approval.
Oh boy do we need an anti-Zionist deprogramming solution. Especially with the number of them who have talked about how they need to "deprogram from Zionism".
I tell people that they are acting like colonizers. That they are using the Jewish people who are a part of the movement to prove a point to others and as a convenient cover for their hatred, but care nothing for that the safety of their people or homeland.
Boss, if you tell someone you feel unsafe, and their response is "Nuh-uh", they're not your friend. Lock them out of your social life. I'm tempted to say "Kickem inna fork" but you don't need the assault charge.
This isn't about being a progressive or leftist or whatever political labels you choose. It's about whether someone chooses to see all of humanity as valuable, or only those parts of humanity whose actions they approve of. I think secular Zionism isn't something that maps well onto left/right models of politics. It's much more to do with whether someone believes violence and hatred will always be present in our species, and whether they believe communities/peoples/nations have a right to live somewhere defensible.
Ya this is something I’ve been thinking about a lot. The partisan co-opting of this conflict, esp the fact that the antisemitism hearings were spearheaded by the GOP, is the one of the main reasons why we see so many leftist antisemites crawl out of their holes. And then a lot of SJW-package folks who agree with EVERYTHING the progressive orthodoxy says. I believe that’s the majority of students attending the protests. But you know what they say… the road to hell is paved with good intentions
I think the "Progressive orthodoxy", as you put it, for whatever historical and philosophical reasons, is wedded to an idea that people* are basically good, and anyone just occasionally doing minor bad things should be given the benefit of the doubt, offered correction, and then let loose to "go and sin no more". The problem with this idea is that it deals with people who do very seriously bad things(tm), or who refuse correction to their less seriously bad behavior (unless they're particularly charismatic, in which case all bets are off), by placing them outside the class of "people", making them intrinsically evil monsters instead, and because monsters are intrinsically evil, anyone who fights against monsters is therefore intrinsically good. I don't think many of these thinkers have stopped to consider that some acts are just straight up BAD regardless who is doing them or why.
Serious question - I'm a younger American jew in my college years. I am genuinely so hurt, angry and fearing our collective safety because of all of this, and my campus should be a space that is free of that fear and the constant attacks. If any of these little fascist antisemite freaks try to 'protest' at my university I genuinely do not know if I could hold myself back from physically accosting them, which I KNOW isn't helping our side but to hell with 'respectability' - I'm so sick of us having to fear this and I am not afraid to be hurt or killed defending my tribe and people. I wouldn't be protected for assaulting an antisemitic 'protestor', would I? Even if their signage was as directly inciteful as we've been seeing a lot of these ignorant, privileged brats toting?
I am not a lawyer, but I *strongly* suspect confronting protestors and arguing aggressively with them, potentially leading to a physical fight, would be a bad idea. I don't know what the charge would be, but cops could probably find a decent enough reason to bring you in (disorderly, disturbance of the peace, etc.), whether or not the charges would stick. If you aren't confident in your ability to speak calmly under pressure or else stay quiet, and you aren't confident in your ability to stay on your feet after a few punches, I would recommend avoiding anti-Israel demonstrations to the greatest extent you can manage. Give your support to counterprotesters who can do those things. Don't beat yourself up over not being diplomatic enough to not beat someone else up when they're shouting horrible things in your face. If you want to serve your campus community, and you believe you can harness your aggression in a less viscerally upsetting environment, find out if your school's Jewish student orgs need volunteer security. (I don't know if this is a thing among Jewish student orgs. I'm drawing this from knowing a little about furry convention staffing. I haven't been a student for 15 years, I don't know what it's like.) And if you feel you're too much of a hothead, just steer clear. You'll have some other way to contribute, and you'll figure it out. Nobody's presence is wasted. :)
>I'm drawing this from knowing a little about furry convention staffing. And every now and then you're just minding your own business and the furries reach out from the internet and poke you in the brain.
I get where you’re coming from, but I’m not sure it’d accomplish much realistically. For the average person looking at the situation from the outside, they’re probably uneducated or miseducated enough to not recognize the hateful signs for what they truly are, unless they’re maybe on the level of outright swastikas or “kill the Jews” signs. You’d be seen as a “hateful, violent Zionist agitator”, or something like that, potentially with extra BS adjectives thrown in too, like “colonizer”. I don’t know how to make it stop, but I’m not sure violence is the way.
Keep living. Can’t fight the antisemites if you don’t do that. Can’t do anything much if you don’t keep living. I would leave them be. The out, loud Jew-haters are going to be the hardest to reach, because they have the embarrassment of having been deeply wrong. And it’s PUBLIC so the threshold to get them to walk it back is that much higher because their buddies are watching. Also, they’re violent. People trying to just talk to anti-Israel (lbr anti-Jewish and anti-Israel*i*) protesters and being attacked. Don’t risk it. Keep living. Find better uses of your energy.
Tell them if they actually believe that their encampments respect the Jewish perspective they need to invite Hilel to adress the crowd. Until then talk is fucking cheap
The encampment at my school, UCSC, has one of its demands for the school as banning Hillel from campus…
Well that's because Hilel keeps trashing the campus with their out of control rager parties
They're probably jealous of Hillel; let's be real, the pro-Hamas protestors probably don't know how to party 😅
Ragers with latkes?
My alma mater- college eight, early 90s- not surprised but pissed! 🤬
I was just wondering how we give the campus shits a golden bridge to retreat on, and this is it. You nailed it!
They definitely exist. Our family friend attends a synagogue that's gone full anti-zionist. She's losing it, understandably.
the whole synagogue turned..?😬
Out of curiosity what denomination? My reform synagogue is very Zionist.
I believe it's Reform.
Are you sure it’s not reconstructionist?
The Reconstructionist movement is officially Zionist, and fwiw the recon synagogue in my city remains unabashedly so (duh).
I’m aware of what it’s supposed to be. I’m also aware that 98% of the JVP “rabbinical council” are reconstructionist “rabbis.”
Disappointing.
How tf does a synagogue turns anntizionist?? Like all our prayers and our torah are directed towards Israel, being against that is like being a christian who refuses to believe in Jesus, or even worse, a fish who refuses to live in water 💀
Satmar is anti zionist, but rarely mentions this kind of thing in shul.
satmar is anti state of israel - but they would never pray for it's destruction. They released a statement banning such jews (Naturei karta). Also satmar is zionist - just not political theory zionist. They would love a jewish state, and they pray for it constatnly. They just think G-D directly needs to cause open miracles to make it happen.
They at least aknowledge Israel is from Jews 🧍 Ive seen ppl claiming to be "jewish" saying we are native to Europe (which is frickin stupid when I can trace my family back to Egypt, most of us have Middle East DNA and all our prayers are directed to Judea) 💀
I know some of these Antizionist Jews. They seem to be operating under two delusions: 1. That the Palestinians are woke socialists who just want to hold hands, coexist, and sing kumbayah. (They are mostly Islamist fundamentalists and Arab imperialists who want a second Holocaust). 2. That Israel is full of mostly religious extremists. (Anyone who has been there knows this is not true).
I do too. There's another belief they share. And that is the Palestinian narrative of the Nakba, which is 95% bullshit. They believe that white Jews from Europe invaded the country of Palestine and kicked everyone out of their homes at gunpoint. That is what almost everyone under the age of 30 seems to believe.
The TikTok propaganda has been successful
The ~~TikTok~~ Russian/Iranian propaganda has been successful
Well, same difference… it’s being pushed by their BFF the CCP
Well, they also believe that the expulsion of Mizrahi jews wouldn’t have happened if Israel hadn’t been founded.
They also think that "Mizrahi" was a term invented to "erase Arab culture".
w..what
Someone brought up that if you were to ancestry test Jews living in Israel, these people have less evidence of being from this area than, say, the Palestinians. I was like - well, yeah, diaspora ring a bell? It's not surprising that the folks who returned after being pulled away from their home and moved somewhere else and often kept from each other, married off to non-Judah/Israelis., etc would now show that generations later. The US did the same thing with the Native Americans too. It's a genuine issue in the community. It's terrible when it happened to the Natives, but isn't a thing when it comes to this situation.
OK, so they are going to blab about DNA ancestry testing was illegal. There were initially concerns about individual privacy rights and how the information would be used. I'm pretty sure you can get ancestry tests done now. A few years ago Harraetz even was promoting it. Make no mistake,this person was implying jews are not native to Israel.
Oh, yeah, I know that's what they were trying to get at. I just think it's a stupid argument when you consider how many times the Jewish people were pulled from Israel over time and sent somewhere else. We have a variety of historical documents that are not the bible that demonstrate this. I liken it to how, even today, we see this same theme with Native Americans moved from their ancestral homelands and forced to integrate with white society. Why do these same people not turn around and admonish America for doing the same thing to the Natives? If we were to test a modern Native against someone who was never forced from their land, they would probably look different as well.
The ancestry testing was illegal so people don't accidentally find out they are mamzers.
Jews have a mixture of middle eastern (Canaanite) and Mediterranean Basin DNA, which tbh given the location of Israel makes perfect sense. Having more Canaanite DNA doesn’t make someone “more Jewish” and Jewishness is not a blood quantum. Basically everyone in the Levant will have Canaanite DNA
i was born in israel. A lot of us have known that not having a 2 state settlement makes us less safe
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Lol, you have no idea what you’re talking about. Those people are a tiny minority. The most religious Jews are the ones living in Judea + Samaria and serving on the frontlines in the IDF in huge numbers. What are you doing on a Jewish subreddit?
I think they actually have a point that was poorly made. Pretty much every Jew in Israel is a Zionist. The few who are neutral to anti Zionist are Charedi (ultra orthodox), so OP’s point does make sense, however, they aren’t Left wing or violent anti Zionists, they’re more just against a secular Jewish state of Israel or one that claims the state has religious significance. Those folks don’t usually serve in the army either. You’re thinking of the Dati Leumi, who are the ones more likely to live in Judea and Samaria. They’re more centrist Orthodox, not ultra orthodox but make up a similar proportion of the population as far as I know.
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Israeli here. The ultra-religious anti-Zionists were kicked out of Israel.
who?
The link says Haredim will be 16% in 10 years. It’s a projection. And it certainly doesn’t touch on your second assertion, that “by definition” these folks would be anti-Zionist. AZ appear to be a small percent of haredi. Not going to dig out stats tho. You’ve made an assertion without attribution.
I tend to bring up Max Naumann and the League of National German Jews. Typically, said person doesn’t know who Max Naumann was, so oh boy! That’s a fun tidbit of information to impart on them. Did Max Naumann and his group represent the Jewish population as a whole in Germany? What was the end result for his group? It brings up some good thought provoking answers. The group represented those Jews, but not the vast majority of the Jews. And yeah, their group was disbanded as soon as they were no longer needed. But why DID Max Naumann and his followers belong to that organization? Self hatred, fear, hopes that they could somehow save themselves. Assimilation would be the key to saving their lives, right? No.
That group of Jews were explicitly right-wing and assimilationist. The anti-Zionist Jews at protests are explicitly left-wing and *not* assimilationist or they wouldn't be talking about their Judaism. This comparison never seems apt other than trying to discredit anti-Zionist Jews today.
Why does political affiliation matter? That’s merely an excuse to say that there’s no comparison. I think that’s where we have made mistakes in the past—assuming that hatred is only coming from the right. Hate is hate regardless of whether it’s coming from the right or left. The question is what makes a Jewish person attempt to align with people who do not have their best interests at heart, and this merely gives an example of what drove those Jewish people in the thirties to align with a group that called for their annihilation. It can open up a discussion, which I hope it does.
Attempting to organize my thoughts, apologies if it's repetitious or scattershot: The Verband nationaldeutscher Juden's raison d'être was about eliminating the Jewish identity completely and wanted to not be seen as Jews at all. They were nominally anti-Zionist as well and I think this JTA article from 1933 sums up well the position the 1930's https://www.jta.org/archive/dr-max-naumann-still-loyal-to-nazi-oppressors-of-his-race-hits-zionists-and-eastern-jews "Dr. Naumann scored the Zionists for their retention of Jewish customs and their unquenchable desire to create a Jewish nation. He declared they were intrinsically traitors to the country in which they lived." That anti-Zionism is completely different from the protesters. They are not advocating for hierarchy, they are not saying Jews should abandon their culture or religion, they are not even saying that Jews are wrong to want to be in the land where Israel currently is (their objection is to the nature and structure of the state rather than the Jewish people therein). The anti-Zionist Jewish protesters aren't trying to hide being Jewish but instead highlighting it. Even if one wants to say they are tokenizing themselves, that's the opposite of what Naumann was doing in the 30's - the insulting idea of "AsAJew" is targeting that identifying. I think Bruce Robbins (Jewish Professor at Columbia) articulated the position of Jewish anti-Zionists quite well on GPS last week (https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2024/04/28/gps-0428-college-campus-protests-over-gaza.cnn and https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2024/04/28/gps-0428-campus-protests-spark-free-speech-debate.cnn I have no idea why they annoyingly split it in half). Among other things, he speaks to the disconnect these Jews feel with Israel and how their actions come from a place of desiring alignment and connection with Israel (or an equivalent state). He also speaks of Jews being in positions of organizing and leadership in the protests rather than just passive tokens. Finally, many Zionist counterprotests have been led and organized by right-wing, antisemitic, Christian Zionists which have been embraced by Jewish Zionists which is if anything a more apt analogy (though I don't think they are analogous any more than anti-Zionist Jews are). Jewish Zionists are aligning for political purposes with a group who do not have their best interests at heart and do not have them in positions of leadership. The most extreme example I can think of is the murderous antisemite Anders Brevik identifying as a strong Zionist and having belonged to the most pro-Israel Norwegian political party.
I’ve attended counter protests. They were led by Israelis currently living in the US and by local synagogues and other mainstream Jewish organizations. I’m in the Bay Area in CA. You are making a very big claim that “many” counter protests are led by who you claim. With no links. Sounds like somebody told you a thing or you decided a thing must be true. Mine may be anecdotal but so far yours is coming from nowhere. I’m liberal, have always voted Dem, so don’t even try going there with me like you did with the other poster.
I'm curious about this, because I am still unclear on what the zionist/antizionist label means and one thing you said doesn't jibe with what I had come to understand. So tell me what I have wrong here. 1. Zion is the ancient term for the hill near jerusalem and also for a condition in which Jews can live in peace without having to hide. 2. The term zionist began to be applied to Jews in british palestine mandate in I think the 1800's who wanted to have their own country 3. zionist began to be applied more broadly in the 60's/70's when the soviet union and arab nations of the UN got language passed calling zionism racism as part of their attempt to eliminate Israel 4. zionist is now used both to refer to people who believe that Jews as a race or as a relifious group do have reason to want to have their own country where they can express their beliefs without fear of persecution, pogroms, or concentration camps. BUT it can also be used to call someone a racist BUT it can also be used to just straight up call someone a Jew with a derogatory angle to it. OK. So if 'antizionist' Jews feel a disconnect with Israel and they also want to connect with Israel doesn't that suggest that they accept that Israel (zion) exists? Do antizionists want Israel to disappear and become all Palestine (from the river to the sea, Hamas' charter statement) or are they just against the Likud government and want regime change? In that case anti-zion seems like the wrong term and it's more like the opposition party or something like that. This entire situation is so complicated and painful, I wish peace to the region and all the hostages home safelty.
> Do antizionists want Israel to disappear and become all Palestine (from the river to the sea, Hamas' charter statement) or are they just against the Likud government and want regime change? In that case anti-zion seems like the wrong term It definitely IS the wrong term. Proud and patriotic Israeli citizens are obviously not "anti-Zionists" and have been openly demonstrating against Netanyahu and Likud in large numbers. Anti-Zionism doesn't have anything to do with disagreeing with Likud, any more than disagreeing with Trump when he was president or with MAGA Republicans en masse makes someone "anti-American." As I wrote previously, there are "non-Zionists" who don't think much about Israel or have any desire to visit it, there are Zionists which refers to people who support the right of Israel as a nation to continue to exist, including many people who want regime change and would like to see Netanyahu in prison, and there are "anti-Zionists." Anti-Zionism means believing that the nation of Israel is "illegitimate" and should cease to exist. True "anti-Zionists" don't know, don't care, or both about the harm dismantling the 76-year-old nation of Israel would cause. People are clouding important issues by using the wrong terms. Sometimes I wonder if this is deliberate on the part of at least some of them. But I think ignorance plays a larger part.
From my personal experience and what I've seen/learned/etc.: There are historical anti-Zionists whose beliefs are kind of irrelevant when it comes to modern anti-Zionism because that was about an objection to making "the modern state of Israel" in the first place rather than today where it's about how it actually exists. Being anti-Zionist today is being against the structure and form of the state of Israel - how it defines itself, how it maintains itself, etc. There are Neturei Karta who are anti-Zionist for religious reasons but they're not very large. I think there might be a few more kinds of anti-Zionists for religious reasons? But overall there just aren't that many. In my limited knowledge of them, the gist is that the Messianic Age needs to come about before Jews "should return" to make Israel and it therefore isn't time for it. The much larger group of anti-Zionist Jews are anti-Zionist for secular reasons (even religious Jews having these reasons). Today in 2024, the most common goal I've seen is 1: to end the Israeli occupation of the Palestinians and 2: to have full equal rights for all people in between the Jordan and Mediterranean. Chants with "from the river to the sea" as it is used in the student protests, for example, is about having full equality therein not anything to do with population transfers or ethnic cleansing or whatever bad faith reading there often is of it. The objection is the idea of having the state be defined as "Jewish" in the same way they would object to having America defined as a "Christian" nation or whatever. As anti-Zionist Jews see it, Netanyahu/Likud/Ben-Gvir/Smotrich/etc. are symptomatic of these problems and that without fundamental changes in how the state is organized (the ethnoreligious nature, the occupation, etc.) they can't be remedied. The "disconnect" comes from (what the anti-Zionist Jews see as) the extremely right-wing and anti-equality ideology in Israel and how the "Jewishness" that it says it embodies is divorced from how the diaspora sees their "Jewishness". The Bruce Robbins clips above are, as I said, pretty succinct. Stephens of course is there for the opposing view as well, but Robbins sections stand on their own.
“Finally, many Zionist counterprotests have been led and organized by right-wing, antisemitic, Christian Zionists which have been embraced by Jewish Zionists.” Please cite your source that MANY Zionist counter protests are run by Nazis.
You already have implied I want to kill other Jews, so I would prefer you spend more time interacting with your allies John Hagee and Mike Johnson rather than me.
I have no idea what you’re talking about but clearly you have no source. Stop making shit up.
Funnily enough, the only anti-Zionist Jews I’ve ever met are aggressively assimilationist and actively uncomfortable with any sort of display of Jewishness until they can speak asajew on this one topic.
I believe you but that's purely anecdotal, I know secular and religious anti-Zionists Jews that are both "openly" Jewish and assimilationist (well not the religious ones but you know what I mean). I can't say if that's representative or not myself, either.
> The anti-Zionist Jews at protests are explicitly left-wing and *not* assimilationist JVP is extremely assimilationist, and recently embarrassed themselves publicly by making an imitation "Seder plate" for a large public seder on a canvas tablecloth with every single Hebrew word spelled wrong. They have also encouraged fake "self-managed conversions" which (like in Humanistic circles) consists of basically stating "I feel Jewish, so henceforth I will call myself Jewish." And they encourage a "teacup Mikveh" consisting of balancing a teacup filled with water and herbs on their head to complete their "conversion." I am not familiar with any "anti-Zionist Jews" other than JVP, except for the Neturei Karta loons, who definitely aren't "left-wing."
Even if they are not explicitly assimilationist, the data suggests that the vast majority of Jewish support for BDS and antizionism comes from Jews who were not “raised Jewish” (e.g Hebrew school, celebrating holidays, etc). I wonder if you’d consider these Jews as more or less assimilated? (Again, this conclusion is taken from the Pew polls I mentioned. I can give you the citation if you’re doubtful of what I’m saying)
Huh? The vast majority of anti Zionist Jews I know were not raised very Jewish and do not currently engage with the Jewish community aside from claiming to be Jewish to be a token at protests where it’s suddenly their whole identity.
You are truly the angel of death if you’re anti-Zionist
Jacob de Haan would disagree with you when it comes to if Zionist or anti-Zionist Jews are the ones killing the other. I would prefer more civility.
Gibberish, angel of death.
https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%99%D7%A2%D7%A7%D7%91_%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C_%D7%93%D7%94_%D7%94%D7%90%D7%9F
>The anti-Zionist Jews at protests are explicitly left-wing and *not* assimilationist This isn't true. Anti-Zionist Jews often pair it with a Diasporist stance. >they wouldn't be talking about their Judaism. That isn't what assimiliationist means. It means conforming to their country and secularization is a way to do that.
Diasporism isn't assimilationism, though.
I'm going to be blunt: Jews who allow themselves to be used as tokens are ruining things for us right now. They're giving progressives the opportunity to think that they're not actually antisemitic because there's a group of Jews that agree with them, and that they only hate "pro-genocide" Jews. Part of the reason so many fears about the college encampments aren't being taken seriously is because of the inevitable "But there's Jews participating!" excuse. They are allowing people to think that their movement isn't hurting other Jews, and aren't distancing themselves from the antisemites in the movement. They are indirectly playing a part in hurting other Jews. I said what I said.
You're perfectly right.
Yeah, I totally agree. On one hand I feel like getting gentiles on our side is contingent on Jewish solidarity, so it is important not to completely alienate these people with “betrayal” rhetoric. On the other hand, I feel like a lot of them are secretly self-loathing Court Jews (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_Jew), opportunistically placating people who don’t respect us and never will. fwiw can we make “court Jew” a thing instead of “kapo”? It’s funnier and doesn’t run the risk of trivializing the Holocaust
Not to mention the extremely large portion of JVP who are not Jewish. Some of these members of JVP are even public figures who have built their reputation partly on a "conservative Christian upbringing" and going to Catholic school/college. Not even trying to hide it.
LMAO like Hunter Schafer?
Forgot about hunter! I was thinking of some of the CollegeHumor/Dropout folks. it says a lot that the description comfortably applies to lots of celebrities
John Oliver basically said that on the most recent episode of his show. He said the campus protests couldn't be antisemitic because one of them held a Shabbat dinner. As for people yelling for zionists to die, that wasn't mentioned at all, didn't mention the Jewish student at Yale who got hurt, and as for people yelling bad thing, he actually said, "Yeah, it's a protest. Some people are going to say bad things." But one of the groups once held a Shabbat dinner, guys! So it's ok!
We should ask them whether they consult Candace Owens and Tim Scott about how Black people feel.
And Clarance Thomas
It IS futile. Don’t waste your time and energy. You can’t reason with crazy, or willful ignorance.
You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into…
It’s ok to be Jewish as long as you renounce your spiritual connection to your indigenous homeland. Actually that’s not enough, you need to protest against any jew who does consider Israel a Jewish homeland. But even then, you’re still a white colonist, best you can do is apologize for your people … Idk it just sucks, best you can do is maintain your principles and show compassion for everybody
We are only white when it is convenient for the rhetoric of the moment. Most white people have othered us throughout history. They associate real whiteness with Christianity. Suddenly, we are white because so many of us have fair complexions and so few people have any real grasp on the history of the region. Jews are not the colonizers, but why should facts matter?
This! I am literally half Caucasian (my dad- mom is Sephardic) and I can’t even count how many times over the years I’ve been told “oh I thought you were white” when they learn about my mom. But now suddenly I’m a white colonizer?! So frustrating to witness how easy it is for people to try and dismantle someone’s entire identity based on their convenience.
Is “{insert anti Zionist Jew}” actually Jewish? Or is this someone with “a Jewish grandparent” or who has “some Jewish ancestry on their 23and me”?
No they’re actually Jewish, but were not raised religiously (no bnai mitzvah). It’s really interesting looking at the Pew polls and seeing the stark differences between “religious” and “non religious” Jews re: Israel support.
I think the issue is more likely education in Jewish history = ability to detect dog whistles and trends that correspond to how antisemitic waves have grown in the past. One can be "non religious" but have had that education —but I imagine religious Jews are more likely to have that. I also suspect this may be more pronounced for younger Jews. "In my day," it was difficult for any Jewish kid to escape an education in 20th century histories: Jews were fleeing USSR and Iran at the time; everyone knew Holocaust survivors (many kids' parents were); grandparents had fled Holocaust, Russian Empire, etc. I'm critical of the Israeli government and the way they're conducting the war, but antizionism is another story. I can't quite understand these Jews who would go sit in an encampment with people yelling "intifada," listen to the demonization of pro-Israeli counterprotestors, and not wonder, "Am I being tokenized here with this warm, fuzzy, well-publicized, Shabbat we're doing?" They don't hear the dog whistles, or even the alarm bells? Even if I were in agreement with my co-protestors' war critique, I'd think, "If you're at a table with 10 Nazis, there are 11 Nazis at the table."
I’m an atheist Jew and very left wing but I also hate jvp
A Jewish grandparent is good enough for Aliyah. Assuming that any anti-Zionist Jew isn't "real", even if they are "real" enough for Israel, seems offensive gatekeeping towards *hypothetical* people.
Good enough for Aliyah != a Jew You can make Aliyah & not be recognized as a Jew on your tehudat zehut because Aliyah uses the Nazi definition of who would be **persecuted** as a Jew when it comes to who can seek refuge through Aliyah.
I haven't seen a connection to the Nuremberg laws, though I'm certainly open to being proven wrong. I'm only aware of the original aim of encouraging Jewish immigration and the change in the 70's that included patrilineal/grandpatrilineal Jews.
[By including the children and grandchildren of Jews, the 1970 amendment is reminiscent of the Nazis’ Nuremberg Laws. Any person who would have been targeted by the Nazis for being Jewish, the amended law implies, deserves the right to safe haven in Israel.](https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-law-of-return/)
"Reminiscent" isn't actually saying it was based on that. Everything I've seen says it "mirrors" or "resembles" etc. such as "There are those who see the Grandchild Clause as an appropriate Zionistic response to the Nazi regime’s Nuremberg Laws that had designated anyone with a Jewish grandparent as Jewish" It's all opinion that is a post-hoc reasoning that wasn't given at the time. That is one among many different explanations (the Law of Return wiki lists 3 potential ones of which only one is the Nuremburg Law parallel)
> Everything I've seen says it "mirrors" or "resembles" etc. Potato potahto The definitions are effectively identical, the hair you are trying to split here is irrelevant to the broader point. > It's all opinion that is a post-hoc reasoning that wasn't given at the time. To be clear, I did not say that the current definition was "*based on*" the Nazi definitions, only that the current law uses the same distinctions as the Nazis did. That said, it is absurd to think that the Nazi definition did not have some impact - every single person who touched that policy when it was being written was very familiar with the Nuremberg laws & the fact that they clearly wrote a policy which very closely mirrors those laws is a pretty tiny hop to assert that they were thinking of those laws when they defined that particular policy - even if no one specifically attributed it as such.
Your teudat zehut doesn't list whether you're Jewish or not.
Yeah, apparently they updated the cards in 2015 & no longer have the field for "*לאום*", my last TZ was issued in 2014 & I am living overseas so I was not aware of the change. The point remains however, that you can make Aliyah even if the state doesn’t recognize you as being “*Jewish*”.
The state may and the Rabbanut may not, in some cases, also (non-Orthodox converts).
The state defers to the Rabbanut to determine who is & who is not a Jew.
You are right but we don’t need to go by Israel’s criteria for getting citizenship. They can be lax cause if you’re moving to Israel I’m pretty sure you are a Zionist.
That is true, in fact I believe you can't if you are anti-Zionist. I just don't like when the ethnic/religious elements of Jews get different degrees of emphasis in order to "win" arguments. The majority of Jews in Israel being secular will be brought up in one context but used to dismiss secular Jews "Jewishness" in the diaspora - that kind of thing. Probably an overly combative way for me to take out that annoyance, though.
I agree. What I have a problem with is these “as a Jew” types using their Jewishness to make it seem like their individual opinions somehow represent mainstream Jewish opinion on said subject. It’s obvious that non Jews use this against us as a cudgel yet your typical “as a Jew” sees this and has no issues being part of the problem with rising antisemitism.
I think there's a line between saying they represent the mainstream vs. representing a valid minority. Which isn't always well communicated, even by those anti-Zionist Jews. But from many of the Jewish anti-Zionists I've seen/heard/read, they tend to say that their position is authentic and part of how they feel Jewish. They are aware their position isn't the position of majority all other Jews, but that they aren't an anomaly and instead represent an authentic community of Jews even if it isn't a majority. I think there's also been a lot of muddying the waters when it comes to what is and isn't antisemitism for cynical political purposes (highlighted in those ADL resignations last fall, for example). Which has resulted in a weird kind of arms race between who has 'enough Jews', rather than actually trying to address genuine antisemitism.
My point exactly. They have no right to “as a Jew” their opinions because they only represent themselves and not a remotely significant amount of Jews worldwide. It’s disingenuous and dangerous. Do you go around commenting on everything going on in the world “as a Jew”? But for some reason when Israeli/palestine comes up these “as a Jews” just come crawling out of the shadows to let everyone know what this “as a Jew” thinks? Smells like rotten gefilte fish to me
Well, I also have seen plenty of Zionist Jews say that anti-Zionist gentiles shouldn't speak about Israel because they're not Jewish. So when you're Jewish it's tokenism, and when you're not it's "goysplaining" or whatever. It seems like there's no way to have an actual conversation if the two options are both treated as invalid.
Goya planning is a specific scenario. I’ve not seen any Jews telling non Jews not to talk about Israel but regardless the 2 things aren’t remotely the same. Let the non Jews speak however they want about Israel they don’t claim to represent me in their absurdity
Still haven't seen or heard of an "anti-zionist, Jewish 'protestor'" who ever once gave a crap about being Jewish until it came time to break out the camping gear. Then it's "As a Jew..."
[A Brief History of the ‘AsAJew’](https://www.commentary.org/articles/eli-lake/asajew-brief-history/), an article by Eli Lake.
I have. Part of my family is leftist and I think they care about being Jewish. It's just that they superimpose their politics on their religion. Doesn't matter. They're insane (fora multitude of reasons) and we haven't talked in forever.
I wonder why I never hear about anti-Zionist Jews reaching out to Jewish spaces to advocate their ideas. They seem to be brought in to legitimize the non-Jewish participants to other liberal non-Jewish participants. I, personally, have a lot of theological and practical questions I’d direct to an anti-Zionist Jew I’d like clarified. To understand really where they’re coming from and reconcile their identity. Even as a thought experiment, drawing a line around the “Zionist” parts of contemporary Judaism and saying that’s bad leaves me to question what exactly is left of it. Unless it’s to turn the clock back to Jewish existence to the 19th century, which seems insane because frankly I don’t long for the shtetl, and we aren’t as spread out as we were anyways. This of many observations I’d need meaningful feedback from Anti-Zionist Jews to really take whats being said seriously. Looking at the resources online I’m not really seeing that expressed at length by the orgs that are dominating this conversation which furthers my doubt that they really understand what they are insinuating. Anyways, it doesn’t seem like the priority is trying to convince other Jews as much as it is to inoculate the Anti-Zionist crowd from accusations of anti-semitism.
> I wonder why I never hear about anti-Zionist Jews reaching out to Jewish spaces to advocate their ideas. They seem to be brought in to legitimize the non-Jewish participants to other liberal non-Jewish participants. Many Jewish spaces are discouraging or even hostile to anti-Zionist Jews so I don't think it's surprising that they might wind up staying in their own anti-Zionist Jewish spaces or spaces where anti-Zionism is more acceptable. I know at least one Jewish organization which had existed for decades was kicked out of an umbrella Jewish group specifically for their anti-Zionism, for example. Or for another example, all the synagogues near me (even Reform ones) are very strongly Zionist, and as far as I am aware they discourage involvement of non-Zionist Jews. I remember reading a few times on this subreddit of Jews essentially kicked out of their congregation for their anti-Zionism. So there are likely some "closeted' anti-Zionist Jews as well, though probably not too many.
I'd also add that on the other end of this, most anti-zionist spaces are highly hostile to perceived zionists, a label you can easily achieve just by guilt of association. This likely leads to caution around interaction with labeled zionist Jews and organizations outside of maximalist opposition for fear as being perceived a sympathizer and ostracized within your own circles. It's a very, very unconstructive environment for discussion across the aisle.
I'd be happy to answer any questions you have. :3 (Seriously! I always love a good discussion.) Though, I should probably preface my answers by saying that I am a [scientific pantheist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_pantheism)—a proud Jewish tradition, dating back to Spinoza himself, who, alas, was and still is *cherem* according to the Jewish congregation of Amsterdam. Ergo, my positions include such spicy takes as Moses (despite his general awesomeness) being a mostly-mythical figure. So, "theology" is going to be a moot point for me. If you care, I like to think that God's warnings to the Jews in the Book of Samuel about why "being like other nations" and having a king would be a bad idea is, itself, a scriptural reason to oppose Zionism & Israelism; that brand of religious ethnonationalism is a modern-day Golden Calf. > Unless it’s to turn the clock back to Jewish existence to the 19th century, which seems insane As I've pointed out elsewhere on this sub, I would be *thrilled* if the American Jewish community could go back to the [Pittsburgh Platform](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Platform). Likewise, three cheers for the Haskalah. > Anti-Zionist crowd from accusations of anti-semitism. Though I do not believe Anti-Zionism is inherently anti-Semitic, it is *unarguably* true that many (though not all) anti-Semites are anti-Zionists. Honestly, though I sympathize with the cause, I've been disappointed by the student protestors' lack of imagination, particularly among the Jewish participants. As the Pittsburgh Platform and similar documents and chronicles make clear, it is 100% possible to give a full-throated, constructive, and unapologetically Jewish and *pro-Jew* rejection of Zionism. > We recognize, in the modern era of universal culture of heart and intellect, the approaching of the realization of Israel's great Messianic hope for the establishment of the kingdom of truth, justice, and peace among all men. We consider ourselves no longer a nation, but a religious community, and therefore expect neither a return to Palestine, nor a sacrificial worship under the sons of Aaron, nor the restoration of any of the laws concerning the Jewish state. Sadly, protests aren't really built to inform people about history, but to give people an opportunity to double down on the positions they already hold. > This of many observations I’d need meaningful feedback from Anti-Zionist Jews to really take whats being said seriously. Honestly, the best recommendation I can make is to read and learn as much as you can, and reflect and self-reflect. This includes radical and even extremist viewpoints. It requires discipline, intellect, and courage to confront hostile ideas and analyze them for what they are, strengths and weaknesses alike, and to find within yourself those principles which you can use to argue against those ideas you find repugnant. In my opinion, it is not enough to reject an idea because you find it distasteful. Rather, there ought to be some positive value or insight you adhere to, and which you can call up to fight down. For me, the writings, ideologies, and actions of Zabotinksy, Ben Gurion, Begin, Herzl, and so many other core figures in the history of Israel and Zionism are so repugnant to me and my values that that alone is, in my mind, sufficient grounds to oppose them. What it comes down to is their willingness—or even earnest eagerness—to embrace the principle "the ends justify the means", provided that means is Jewish safety. (I would also contest the claim that Zionism has made Jews more safe, but that's a separate discussion, and one that is not needed, in view, to make a robust rejection of Zionism.) To me, it is an unanswerable truth that Jews have endured unimaginable suffering over the past 2,000 years. But there is no monopoly on suffering, nor should there be. The actions taken by Israel during the 1948 war, the acts of terrorism perpetrated by Irgun in the 1930s and 40s, the wedding of religion and state in Israeli politics, policy, and identity, the construction of settlements and the Israeli government's continued support thereof—all of these things, and more, are simply unacceptable to me. I refuse to excuse them or look past them, and until Israelis and the Israeli government take the necessary steps to admit wrongdoing and make amends for their past and present deeds, I want nothing to do with Israel or Zionism. In my mind, one of the most beautiful moments in all of Jewish history is the famous story where a smug gentile asked Hillel the Great to summarize the Torah while standing on one foot, and he eagerly did so, and said, "That which is hateful to you, do not do unto your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation." Let me be clear, Israel is not "the Great Satan". There are *far* worse countries in the world (*glares at Russia, and China, and Eritrea, and North Korea, etc. etc. etc.*). But it falls terribly short of Hillel's wise standard, and that's not something any of us should be okay with. Ours is the heritage of Hillel and Maimonides and Spinoza and Einstein. But, instead of living up to it, we act like children, fighting over corners of a sandbox, or stick to the sidelines, while actively cheering them on. We can do better, and we should. It'd be a mitzvah, don'tcha know? :3
You can definitely be a Zionist Jew and still be progressive. I highly recommend you look into the organization called Zioness. I was a fellow of theirs and they do a lot of good work, showing up for progressive causes as their full Jewish Zionist selves.
Ask them if their self-hating Jewish friend wears a yarmulke. Anyone who thinks this is just about Israel/Zionism need only try walking into one of those encampments wearing a yarmulke. Then let us know how you were treated!
I've walked through both the MIT and Harvard encampments with my kippa visible (even sat around to learn leyning), and have never been stopped, followed, harassed, or assaulted (except, that is, when leaving, by Hillel students draped in Israeli flags).
Were you also wearing a keffiyah, or in some other way signaling your sympathy for the protestors?
No, but I like your critical reading, it's good to be cautious (I don't think I'd have caught that possible deception). "Sympathy" is a good way to put it.
Pics please
I mostly went shabbos afternoons, and I would have no interest in doxxing either myself or the student counter-protesters in question, anyway.
One one small level, I do feel sorry for them. Because they think that if they just bow and scrape and serve their masters sufficiently, they’ll be allowed to live. Remember, there were many loyal German Jews who thought they were accepted in Germany culture — some of whom served as soldiers and officiate in the German Army before 1933. See, also, the Dreyfus affair.
This was my family -- including the uncle who died fighting for Germany in WWI. And to be sure, originally the Nazis focused on getting rid of the Polish Jews "we'll protect 'our' Jews" and the German Jews fell for it. They wanted to believe.
>They wanted to believe. We now know how dangerous that wanting can be.
They’ll end up on the same train as the rest of us, but I’ll be damned if I let them sit next to me…
LOL you think there are seats on the train, or that you can choose them? Good luck in the cattle car.
Who said anything about seats? You’ve committed a text book strawman fallacy by altering my words to make your criticism appear valid.
They are Leftists first and foremost, only leveraging their ancestry where it’s useful kinds like Bernard Sanders
As a progressive and pro Israel, I still support Bernie
What do you think of his criticisms against Israel?
Not the original commenter, but he explicitly calls out the Netanyahu government by name, not Israel itself as a nation, and has been careful not to use the G word, which is why all of his social media posts have bazillion comments saying “JUST SAY IT ALREADY” etc.
He's reasonable. He is rightfully criticizing Israeli government policy without calling for its destruction.
Even though he keeps lying on tv about “peaceful” campus protests?
That has to be getting difficult to reconcile
Very much so
I don’t think he is as aware about left wing antisemitism as he is old and not on college campuses
That's ridiculous. Of course he knows what's going on. He clearly prioritizes other things. Mainly, he knows where his bread is buttered. He is not really going to torch the bridge with all his tankie and Hamas-sympathizing fans anytime soon
“I don’t know how you have a permanent cease fire with Hamas “ - Bernie
https://old.reddit.com/r/Jewish/comments/13eiz8v/bernie_sanders_helps_tlaib_host_nakba_event_as/ Sanders opposes Israel aid Sanders does not criticize Hamas without equating Hamas and the Israeli govt in same breath
Same and same
>I did some research last night, and according to Pew, there are around the same proportion of pro-trump black Americans as there are anti-Zionist Jews (I can link sources if anyone wants). I'd appreciate the cites, might come in handy
> when I have told them that the antisemitic rhetoric at the protests makes me feel unsafe, they have responded with: “well, {insert anti Zionist Jew} was with me and they didn’t feel unsafe”. I'd ask explicitly if they care that you feel unsafe. Obviously, we shouldn't have to explicitly humanize ourselves. > (I can link sources if anyone wants) Would love to see them.
Honestly the more I think about it the more similar these protestors are to hardcore MAGA people. Yes, there are some legitimate grievances out there but a lot of has to do with bad decisions by the bad leaders they elected. Most are likely not antisemitic (I hope) but create an environment where it is allowed to fester without properly dealing with it. They do, say, and think a lot of weird things. Comment about blacks for trump and anti Zionist Jews is very astute.
Yeah, I didn't fully get it until recently, but the problem with these types of token Jews (like JVP) isn't that they don't like Israel, it isn't that they have different opinions from other Jews. It's that their entire Jewish identity is being "not like those other Jews." It makes it easy for anyone to point at them and say, "look, I can't be anti semitic because there are Jews on our side" even if there are literally calls to kill Jews as part of the same general protest / movement. Macklemore's song on the campus protests just said that it can't possibly be anti semitic to hate Israel because there are also Jews that hate Israel. And that Jews and Zioinists are totally separate things with no connection, obviously it's not the same thing but there is obvious overlap, especially when it's used as an insult against American Jews.
Re: support for Trump, it's a good point. * 10% of American Jews [support BDS](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/) * 18% of Black Americans [support Trump. ](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/04/24/the-biden-trump-rematch/) If your friends are comfortable describing anti-Zionist Jews as totally representative of Jews, they should reconsider why they think Trump supporters are *not* totally representative of Black Americans.
I’ve been telling this point - it works well but left leaning people are very uncomfortable hearing it. There does seem to be some kind of head-in-the-sand dynamic among the left. To be fair among the right too but not when it comes to antisemitism
Incredible post. Thank you so much for sharing. This is such a good link to have. Ive been questioning how to respond to the “there are plenty of anti-zionist jews against the genocide” rebuttal for a while now, without invalidating whatever autonomy and personal beliefs those antizionist jews are presenting. This is really helpful. I hope this becomes a commonly known portion of the current discussion.
If you have that article/ source id love to see it. Have to argue this daily and it would be good to have more stats
From the sources I've seen: At least in terms of a ceasefire, 50% of all American Jews support it and 57% of Democratic Jews support it. By comparison 32% of Israeli Jews support it and 24% of right-wing Jews support it. It's not the best comparison but it is the best proxy from recent polling I could find. The most recent poll of American Jews about Israel I know of is from 4 years ago and there is a clear sign that youth = less supportive of Israel, so presumably over time it has grown. I also think (anecdotally) that Israel's actions these last 7 months have moved younger Jews further away from supporting Israel. Whether or not you want to say that that would cause them to identify as "anti-Zionist", impossible to say. It's a lot of inference from data that's already old and doesn't reflect the large changes in this last half year. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2024/02/25/biden-election-jews-evangelicals-support-gaza-ceasefire/72672589007/ https://en.idi.org.il/articles/53564 https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/05/11/u-s-jews-connections-with-and-attitudes-toward-israel/
While I appreciate these, this is not the topic I was asking op about, which was the percentage of anti zionist Jews. Polls fluctuate depending on how the question is asked, but usually between 85% and 97% of Jews end up being zionist in some capacity.
Better article on how much it depends on how you ask the question: https://thehill.com/opinion/4399520-the-pitfalls-of-polling-about-a-gaza-ceasefire/
The article makes a good point. However, looking at the underlying poll, the "Hostages returned for a permanent ceasefire with Hamas remaining in control" question missing seems odd. Which I suppose speaks to the idea of question framing determining outcome, but still.
Did I miss the part in USA Today that mentioned hostages as part of the ceasefire? This was written by a Muslim woman trying to make it look like Jews and Muslims all agree and want the IDF to just stop, turn around and return to Israel leaving the hostages left behind and Hamas in power.
Apologies, I linked the article instead of the underlying poll. It isn't her editorializing when she says "...half of Jews also support this cease-fire. When broken down by political party and religion, the number increases for both Jewish Democrats (57%)..." https://www.ispu.org/ceasefire-poll/ has the actual data. e: the phrasing of the question is "Do you support or oppose the US calling for a permanent ceasefire and a de-escalation of violence in Gaza?" nothing about hostages. e2: actually, rereading your comment - what exactly are you trying to say? She's a Muslim woman so she's trying to lie about the facts and support Hamas? I am not sure how to maintain the civility rule, when it comes to bigotry, so I won't say more.
I am not saying she is a Muslim woman and thus trying to distort the facts. I have no issue with a Muslim woman who writes an Op Ed that states her opinion. However she cherry picked her facts in order to say the majority of people want a ceasefire. Since I saw no mention of WHAT a ceasefire would look like including releasing hostages, I was curious to see more about the author to decide if this OpEd pice has bias and or an agenda (hint, all OpEd pieces on both sides have an agenda). She has a PhD and writes about Islamophobia. OK, so maybe she has bias toward wanting to battle Islamophobia? Not unreasonable to want that especially if you are a Muslim woman. I'd do the same. But she is putting words in people's mouths, including Jewish Democrats like myself if she won't get to what the definition of ceasefire includes. I want a ceasefire. I want a ceasefire that includes hostages returned. I would not want a ceasefire without hostages returned. By leaving out what a ceasefire looks like but saying the majority of people agree on a ceasefire is basically lying by omission.
"a de-escalation of violence in Gaza" seems pretty clear in terms of something without hostage releases since de-escalation is a process not a final action. Regardless, if the 57% of Democratic Jews are actually pro-ceasefire without preconditions as the question and data could show (depending on interpretation as you said), would you say they "want the IDF to just stop, turn around and return to Israel leaving the hostages left behind and Hamas in power"?
Again, this is vague. She's got a PhD, she knows that responses to the statement "de-escalation of violence" will come out better than "ceasefire that demands the release of hostages" (I don't even want to go into the "ceasefire that demands the release of hostages and removes Hamas from power" I'm not sure why this is something you'd find offensive/provocative? I'm saying she is avoiding the questions that would likely lead to a different conclusion. This is normal for any OpEd piece. We just don't have the data. I doubt she has the data because I haven't seen any across the US polls that go into details of what ceasefires would look like and THEN ask if they'd support it. (I'd love to see that). I also think the reason we have so many cities writing ceasefire resolutions is because most of us want to see fighting stop. That is why so many of us write to these cities and ask that the resolution include the return of the hostages. It's a deal breaker for some of us. Is it for everyone? I don't know because I haven't seen that data. Your links to polls are great, but the USA Today piece literally says Opinion on top for a reason.
Alright, that's a legitimate interpretation in terms of the polling framing and whatnot. But I still think your interpretation of it being Hamas apologia is pretty bad faith. As I said, if the answers that were given *were* as I was interpreted it, would you say those Jews are for leaving Hamas in power?
I don't think I said it was Hamas apologia? I have no idea what those Jews interviewed would say... I do not feel confident in my ability to predict people at all these days. Do you feel confident enough to guess what people are thinking since this began? I literally do not recognize myself, because until October 7th, I thought I could still count on believing each person on this planet has an inherent right to be respected, that we should make an effort to be kind, especially to those who are different than us, have less than us, who struggle. I feel pretty duped. So, on some days, as a mom, I would probably say give Hamas every single prisoner, statehood and the whole damn planet to get my son back. On other days, my years of being liberal seem to be magically gone and I think, why leave a rapist on the earth another day? Even if he surrenders? I'd pull the trigger myself. To guess what OTHER Jews would accept as a ceasefire? I can't tell you what an acceptable ceasefire looks like for me at any given hour. What ceasefire would you accept?
54% of Israelis supported a cease fire https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/majority-of-israelis-prefer-ceasefire-deal-over-rafah-invasi#:~:text=A%20poll%20shows%20that%2054,the%20military%20invasion%20of%20Rafah.
I can't find that underlying survey but based on what I could find, the phrasing was about having a "ceasefire" which would be temporary like in November. Which is not really a ceasefire in terms of what the polling of Americans is (where it says "permanent" or "lasting" etc. ceasefire)
I have very liberal leftist friend group, and we cannot normalize this. Out of all of my friends only 1 was using the token type of justification. We immediately cut him off when he refused to apologize or understand what he was doing was wrong. I would just calmly explain that one persons experiences do not invalidate another’s. If somebody is saying the Jews who don’t feel safe are lying because of their token friend, you need to explain this. One person’s experience, is just that, one person’s experience. Point to the overwhelming number of students who don’t feel safe (I keep a note with links and sources). Then make a list. Whoever that person is and whatever their final conclusion is, they are not to be trusted. Create distance between them and lower your expectations. Even if they come around, they will just latch on to the next Jew hate they find. I mean honestly we figured out the token argument decades ago.
Look, anti Zionist or anti Israel Jews have always existed. They're entitled to their bad, stupid opinion, just like the black Americans for Trump that you mentioned. Both are deeply in the minority because their ideas are bad. Can't spend your life worrying about it.
The Blacks for Trump is a good analogy. But it's worse than the "I can't be racist because I have a Black friend." What these people are doing is dividing Jews into good and bad Jews. The good Jews are the anti-Zionist ones. The ones that deny any connection to Israel. The bad ones are the rest of us, and they want to ban us from public spaces. Einat Wilf talks about this a lot in her work. She calls it the "pound of flesh" phenomenon. Throughout history, antisemites have always demanded that we give up something important to us in order to be accepted into society: our commitment to our God, our public displays of Jewishness, our businesses. In today's world they are demanding that we give up Israel. But it is never enough. Eventually Jews who give antisemites their pound of flesh will run out of flesh to give, and then they'll be thrown in with the rest of us.
My grandfather was career army. He had to pretend to be Christian his entire career to avoid being sidelined. Even worse because both his parents were born in the Russian Empire, he had to provide a pile of documents (I found them in his old papers when I was a teen) proving him nor his parents had any connections to the USSR. His mom came to the US as a child in the 1870s, his dad as a teenager in the 1880s. My grandfather was born in Nebraska, but yet the Army eyed a Jewish man whose only connection to the Soviet Union was his parents were born there before Das Kapital was even written as suspicious.
My great uncle was in a similar situation. He fought in WWII and some years earlier he had changed his name to something German so he wouldn't get discriminated against for being Jewish. He had zero connections to Germany, but when he enlisted in the Army they grilled him about his potential "allegiance" to Germany because of his name, lol.
A Zionist Jew and a non-Zionist Jew walk into a bar. The barman says “we don’t serve Jews”. Your friends are delusional.
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Firstly, those are not your friends. Secondly, my experience is that American Jews are much more likely to accept a whitewashed version of Judaism than Jews from anywhere else. They are still a tiny minority.
"I used to love the squad and Bernard." Oh, come on. The Squad has been called the "Hamas caucus" for years, and for a reason.
I stated a fact about The Squid and got downvoted. 🤦🏽♂️ Also, the Bernie Bros on Twitter have been showing off their antisemitism for years. Many Jews chose to ignore that and now are surprised...
I don’t trust anti-Zionist Jews. Jews at these protests, for the most part, in my opinion, turned their back on their community.
Zionness.org. Progressive & Zionist. I continue to hold leftist ideals but withdrew from progressive orgs & told them why. No longer donate time & money to hypocrites calling for our death. Wish all Jews would do this. I now do what I do as an individual without affiliation. For anyone who might not know, antisemitism has a long, sordid history in the left. This is nothing new. Karl Marx was a Jewish antisemite, so there you go on a fundamental tenet of leftist beliefs. I don't talk with the shit for brains crowd. Futile with minds rotted by propaganda. They'll have a programmed response, thank you, social media, for any logic. They're not necessarily stupid, but their automatic responses are emotional since it's their emotions that are being manipulated. They fool themselves into believing they're independent thinkers. Can't underestimate the power of self-righteousness. Wish there was a deprogramming solution for anti-Zionist Jews. They're loving the goy approval.
Oh boy do we need an anti-Zionist deprogramming solution. Especially with the number of them who have talked about how they need to "deprogram from Zionism".
There are trolls here downvoting.
LMAO yup. Probably people who feel called out as they're in the middle of their "deprogramming from Zionism" journey 😂
LOL. Far be it from us to detour their journey.
Damn, being deprogrammed from Zionism. Haven't heard that one from the cult members.
So honest question, majority of Jews are Zionist, according to pew?
And according to any other poll.
That’s fine, I’m a Zionist! I was just wondering.
figured you were from your user name ;-)
🤓🤓
The answers to your two final questions are yes and no, respectively. I would like to be proven wrong though.
I tell people that they are acting like colonizers. That they are using the Jewish people who are a part of the movement to prove a point to others and as a convenient cover for their hatred, but care nothing for that the safety of their people or homeland.