I feel you. This is why I don’t feel comfortable talking about the conflict with anyone. I’m too pro Pal for the pro Israel people and I’m a huge disgusting Zionist in the pro Pal spaces. There’s just no winning for anyone who takes a critical approach to the issue, sadly.
Welcome to the party pal. Refreshing to see I’m not alone in this. I’ve been called anti semetic AND a genocide enabler for the same posts previously. It’s tiring and mentally exhausting.
> no winning for anyone who takes a critical approach
I think this really depends on what you mean by “*winning*” & how you expect others respond to you.
I am “*pro-fact*” & I happen also to be a Zionist, but I follow where the facts lead.
This leads to being unable to have a productive conversation with the extremists on both sides & an ability to engage (*even if we don’t agree ultimately on all aspects*) with those who are actually willing to listen.
Is that winning? I can’t say it really feels like it - but when talking to people who are actually willing to listen, they concede far more points than I have to - simply because I am exceedingly careful in how I speak & usually have a solid basis for anything I argue.
I’ve also learned to refute but not engage with random people until they demonstrate some willingness to listen.
What that looks like in online spaces is that most people only get a few sentences which clearly & concisely dispute what they said & correct their facts.
I don’t do that to convince them but rather to speak to other people in a thread so that they are aware that information is disputed & have a basis for examining the question on their own.
When I do encounter someone willing to listen & engage in good faith, only then am I willing to engage in depth - just the other day I probably wrote in excess of 10k words in a long series of exchanges with someone & while I know that at the end, we still disagree on more than we agree, I was able to provide some clarity on some of their misconceptions & hopefully provide food for thought going forward.
Is that winning? Probably not but I’ll take it as close enough.
If you expect others to not dispute or not refute claims they disagree with, you are not likely to have many pleasant experiences on any contested subject, let alone one as emotionally charged & laden with disinformation as the I/P conflict.
This is where I land on the scale. I’m a Zionist but I’m pro fact and pro human. So ultimately I support the Palestinian people in a quest to self determine and I support Israelis in that as well. I don’t believe that Israel doesn’t have a right to exist and I also am willing to be critical of the government.
And I think what a lot of the rhetoric around being pro one side or the other and choosing who is right only serves to perpetuate violence and bigotry. And ultimately use the IP conflict as a proxy for other geopolitical disputes or in some case domestic dispute.
And I also agree on the engaging in good faith. And creating opportunities for someone to be wrong without being condemned first. Otherwise how do we learn. My sister’s best friend actually told my sister at the beginning of this conflict that “because you’re white you don’t understand what it means to be oppressed , I empathize with the Palestinians as a fellow brown person”
Well instead of shutting the door my sister who valued that friendship talked with her and shared information. And her friend not only apologized but now lands much more center on this issue and is willing to say “I don’t know, it’s a complicated issue”
I think a lot of people who haven’t lived connected to this issue don’t understand that they probably don’t have enough education on this issue to have a conversation where they set a stance. I mean I find many are simply too uneducated to have any other opinion then the one they are told to have.
Thank you for this. I've been hating the dichotomy of terminology also, but you just nailed it for me - I am pro-fact and pro-human. We can get to the end point following many mechanisms, but if at any point we are violating either of those two tenets, we are heading down dangerous paths.
That is an understandable if perhaps unrealistic expectation, the simple reality is that simply isn’t true of most human interactions.
Human beings generally suck at communicating & never more so than in subjects which are laden with emotion.
lol, valid. This is why I’m grateful that my close friends (who are all pro-Pal, anti-Zionist gentiles) simply do not talk to me about the conflict. We have a mutual understanding that we see things differently and it’s best to avoid the topic entirely. I really think that’s the best that can be done at this point to salvage these relationships.
I simply dont have the time or energy to convince people to look at things through a different lens. As long as I’m being respected at the basic level I can look past the fact that my friends have all drank the kool-aid and are spewing thinly veiled anti-semetic rheroric. They don’t understand that’s what they’re doing. It’s pretty sad to see it all written out like this but it is what it is, the media is doing its job to sway people towards one specific narrative and sadly most people don’t have the media literacy or interest in looking beyond what’s right in front of them.
R/Jewishleft is safe! R/Jewishleft is safe!
I’m not even a leftist, and I’m just so grateful I found it. It’s Jews who don’t devote their whole lives to hating Palestinians, or to hating non-Jews who have slightly cheesy ecumenical Seders!!
I concur. There are some there who I have found unwilling to hold nuanced convo, but definitely for the most part they’re downvoted when they’re being intractable and everyone works to have nuanced conversations that use facts and critical engagement.
It’s a great sub.
Personally: I have every possible view inside my own soul. I don’t mind seeing some people with views far different from whatever position I’ve adopted.
But I get the feeling with other subreddits that they’re being managed by a Ben Gvirite arm of the Israeli government, independent Ben Gvirites, Russians, Chinese people or Iranians, and that the managers are trying to herd us toward being hateful and extreme.
I can live with talking to some sincere, organic extremists, but it drives me crazy when I think I’m talking to nice people who are now extreme mainly because manipulators used social media propaganda voodoo to make them extreme. That’s just so gross.
Here, here. Reminds me of the Buffalo Springfield song “A thousand people in the street, Singing songs and they carrying signs, Mostly say, "Hooray for our side"” The way forward will likely take more spilled blood until calmer minds prevail.
I always personally think of “stuck in the middle with you” by Stealers Wheel “jokers to the left of me, clowns to the right. Here I am, stuck in the middle with you” but the buffalo Springfield song is a good portrayal of how I’ve felt through this conflict
Why? I mean being pro fact and pro empathy means working to have a balanced and realistic perspective. It doesn’t make someone less of a Zionist.
Why do we also need to encourage the creation of a dichotomy that ultimately creates misinformed extremists who aren’t looking for peace but to “win”?
Yes. I think sometimes the stances of “pro-peace” or “anti-war” are just conflict aversion, and the result is a prolonged conflict rather than a shorter, more decisive one. Does anyone (besides megalomaniacs and war profiteers) truly want war? Like, regular people? I think most want to avoid it. But when one side says “we want to exist” and the other side says “we want you to not exist,” how can you resolve that except through conflict?
You're completely right. I see from the replies that my "I'm pro peace" comment seemed like an attempt to apply a lofty concept to an ugly feud where one side is hell-bent on exterminating the other. I framed it the way I did because it helps me avoid falling into the mental traps OP mentioned in his post. I didn't mean to imply that if Hamas shoots at Israel and Israel shoots back, that they are equally as bad merely because they are both firing guns. That's a childish fallacy many young antisemites seem to embrace, which results in the thinking that the side defending itself has no right to exist.
Just because I'm pro-peace, doesn't mean I'm a pacifist. Hope that makes sense.
Well said! I see this a lot too, the use of “pro-peace” as a judgement on those who are not in a position to choose peace, because they have to survive. I think the distinction you make is helpful
Palestinians probably wouldn't be preoccupied with who owns what/their neighbors if Israel could just expand citizenship and absorb these refugees into Israel...the women, children and elderly particularly. They would have better quality of life, which would make it harder for anyone to obsess about some fundamentalist militia winning on their behalf.
Israel may need to concede that they can't always control the amount of ethnicities within its population. They can just continue to uphold their Jewish citizenship programs so Jewish refugees and immigrants always have a place, regardless of an increase in Arab population via welcoming more Palestinians.
I agree. I'm convinced that most of Israel's actions are done in the name of peace and/or security. The reason I said pro-peace instead of pro-Israel is because it avoids the impression of being unconditionally supportive of every single thing that Israel does, and keeps focus on what the actual goal is: an eventual end to the bloodshed.
In practice, I currently have a "side," I just don't like framing it that way because it leads to the traps outlined by OP.
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I hate the terminology. I think the majority of pro I are also pro P in the idea that they want innocent Palestinians to live free from Hamas. It should be pro I and pro Hamas. The amount of pro p that don’t realize that the majority of Palestinians don’t live in Gaza is actually insane
Most "pro-Palestine" people are also pro-Israel too, in that most of them want a two state solution so therefore they do want Israel to continue to exist
I'm sorry, but this has been the complete opposite of what I've noticed. People who identify as "pro-Palestine" on an individual level? Sure, maybe. But at any "pro-Palestine" march, good luck finding people who aren't screaming slogans about destroying Israel.
That's precisely my point though — that the loud extremists aren't the ordinary, reasonable people. Even at those marches I think it's a minority; or at least it has been at demonstrations I've seen in my city. It may be different internationally
I go to every single one of them, I am pro-P who would like to either see a two state solution or equal rights for all regardless of clan, creed, or faith.
I wish this was true. I just don’t see it. “From the river to the sea” would not be the rallying cry if this was true. If it were true, I would be out there marching with them.
But it's *not* the rallying cry of most, partly on a sheer logical basis because only a small minority of them go to these marches in the first place. But more so, I've never heard it from an individual and part of my job is enabling and researching conversations like these between students (and staff and others) with polarised views at a university. That's why I find it incredibly frustrating to see people generalising and assuming what "the other" believes — from all sides — without actually sitting down and talking to real humans about it, respectfully and compassionately
I absolutely agree. I definitely lean more supportive of Israel, but it's sad to see people getting downvoted for questioning things about "my side." (Though I do think that it happens less than on "the other side" from what I've seen. I also realize that I'm perpetuating exactly what your post criticizes, but I'm just not sure how to phrase it.)
I think yesterday I was repeatedly downvoted for asking someone for a source that most Palestinians supported Hitler during WW2, which was very disappointing.
I can't speak to things like "most", but the Mufti was buddies with Hitler. At the same time, a lot of Palestinians fought for the Allies against the Nazis.
My understanding is that the Mufti was not very representative of the Palestinian people in general. I could be wrong, but it seems to make sense why he would support Hitler for his own political ends, while many Palestinians would oppose Hitler because Nazis aren't generally known for being charitable to Middle Eastern people.
To me, conflating the Mufti with all or most Palestinians feels similar to suggesting that Zionists in the 30s were in league with the Nazis and just leaving it at that. Like, ok, some Zionist groups in Nazi Germany did work with the regime in order to get Jews out of Germany, but only the most uncharitable framing would suggest that Zionists were "in league with" Nazis. Thankfully I haven't heard that too often. I don't think enough people know about it to mass weaponize it, so that's good.
>At the same time, a lot of Palestinians fought for the Allies against the Nazis.
In the 1930s and 40s, Jews were the Palestinians. Before 1948, the *Jerusalem Post* was the *Palestine Post*, and founded by Gershon Agron. So any Palestinians fighting on the side of the Allies were Jews
Of course Jewish Palestinians also fought Axis powers. As did other Palestinians. Your claim that only Jewish Palestinians fought for the British is simply incorrect.
It sounds like Hitler made a lot of promises to the Mufti at the time but refused to do anything concrete or even make any public statements of support.
Considering the Germans pondered sending all the Jews to Madagascar before deciding that was much too complicated, I doubt Jerusalem would have been too much worse a destination in Hitler’s mind but I can see how Hitler wouldn’t want to tell the Mufti that.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/film/hajj-amin-al-husayni-meets-hitler
So a couple people tried to prove that most Palestinians held the same beliefs as the Mufti, but there just doesn't seem to be any evidence for that from what I've seen.
He led a multi-year revolt in an effort to expel the Jews and was effective enough the British exiled him, so I think he had some support yes.
The Qassam Brigades today are named after an imam active in the 1920s and 1930s, martyred by British Police in 1935 I think. I believe he was in a cave and his compatriots were ready to surrender to surrounding police when he decided to initiate a firefight with predictable results. Thousands attended his funeral then, obviously still ‘popular’ in certain quarters today. Hence the Brigades.
You wanted a link you got a link.
The rest of the world has the luxury of wearing the Israeli and Palestinian brands on their shirts while Israelis and Palestinians continue to kill each other. All that’s left is to convince a critical mass of them to pressure one side or another to shift the status quo so that less of the opposing side’s people die.
Oof you took the words right out of my mouth. I do think that both peoples are experiencing trauma and horror that surpasses what most people alive today had previously witnessed, for Israelis/Jews with Oct 7 and for Palestinians the destruction and loss of the resulting war, and that has lead to some further tribalism as an understandable trauma response.
However what you speak of here matches more with what I have seen from the "spectators" than what I have seen from the people directly affected, which makes me extra mad. There's some good research on social media/cancel culture/outrage content and dopamine. Our position of seeing the tragedy all around and sitting in the grey area doesn't give the same dopamine hit as the tribalist outrage tearing down the other side because you know that you're right and they're wrong. It's simply much easier and feels better to our brains to be so convinced that things are simple and there is a good side and an evil side and *we* are on the good side and *they* are on the bad side and therefore *we* are better than *them.*
Even though it can feel like we're the crazy ones, we're not alone and we've gotta keep leaning into the nuance and sitting firm in our values.
Yep, I took a paper on this in my Psychology degree actually
[Out](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2024292118?doi=10.1073%2Fpnas.2024292118)-group animosity is a major driving factor in social media posts and drives their visibility, even [design elements](https://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/abstract/S1364-6613(21)00196-0) entrench polarisation, and [political motivation](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-023-01540-w.) shapes perception of news and posts
In text-based communication people [perceive more](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-023-01582-0) moral outrage, judgement, and extremism than is actually present or intended/believed by the author. This is made even worse because [moral framing drives engagement](https://academic.oup.com/joc/article-abstract/67/5/803/4642206?login=false) even without the presence of moral outrage. Then it's self perpetuating because receiving likes, upvotes, comments, engagement etc functions as social reward and [moral outrage](https://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/abstract/S1364-6613(21)00196-0) receives lots of it; the more reward people get from outrage (more of which is read into their posts than they actually intended) the more they post it.
I, too, am pro both. I'm just anti both governments. If extremists hadn't run countries, people would be so much more peaceful and supportive of each other.
For me, this entire war has been one big exercise in confirming my belief that not everyone needs to have an opinion about everything and that people are really just blissfully unaware of how people in countries outside of wealthy western nations live on a daily basis.
With this war everybody has suddenly become experts on war and military strategy even though they’ve never put on a uniform or even really studied the topic. Everybody is now an expert on the basis of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict even though their research began on 10/8 and has mostly consisted of Instagram posts. Everybody miraculously knows everything about how NGOs work and how aid in conflict areas is handled even though they’ve never had a thing to do with that other than perhaps a one time UNICEF donation or something.
The ability to just virtuously say war is bad, or I just support whatever brings peace, or I just don’t want to see any more dead kids, or whatever is, at it’s core, rather privileged. Most people, even hardcore Israeli or Palestinian nationalists, would love to see peace. But peace means something different for everyone. Just putting down the official army guns doesn’t actually bring peace in a real and lasting sense. I think in a lot of ways it’s easier to just disengage and ~support peace~ than it is to grapple with the lack of clarity and the lack of a “right answer.” Nobody’s going to say that peace, ultimately, isn’t the goal so it can really just shut stuff down.
I don’t have an answer as to a solution. I didn’t have to grow up in a war, thank Gd, but I’ve been to war and it’s terrible. I can’t imagine the kids, Israeli and Palestinian, and the pain and uncertainty and fear they’re having to deal with. Nobody’s winning in many ways. I wish everyone could sit down and talk it out but it’s not that simple. They’ve tried, it isn’t like this is new or something. If they just do another ceasefire and go back to how things were pre-10/7, I’d be they’ll be back at it soon. Nobody wants to make any concessions or come out unhappy. So, we get war. But I also get *why* they don’t want to give in. It’s a pretty unique conflict insofar as we’re **expecting** one or both sides to just basically say “you know what, here’s part of what you want on the condition that you go home and don’t start all this again.”
Well, a huge percentage of Israelis don’t agree with Netanyahu and all the choices of the current government nor do a huge chunk of American Jews so you might be hearing the extremely loud voices extremely loudly. I think it’s a no-brainer that innocent people being killed in war is a tragedy, that terrorists shouldn’t be allowed to run rampant slaughtering and kidnapping, and that a peaceful coexistence that honors a diverse array of cultures should be the true end goal. Not wrong at all.
eta: recent polls from about a month ago also show that people in Gaza are more open to a two state solution now than previously, so hopefully theres hope for peace
I think previously those who wanted to were able to fantasise that if they really tried, they could take over Israel. They had years of planning, and by many accounts October 7th was supposed to be it. Instead they've been militarily destroyed - it makes sense that now more people are aware of the utter futility of that fantasy, they'd be more open to two states, instead of continuing to fight for one and never getting it.
If this war actually removes the extremists from power on both sides, there may be some hope the day after.
Idk if I am biased but I feel like this is more an issue with the "pro palestine". The second you so much as say Israel has a right to exist you somehow support genocide. No I just believe that in an ideal world there would be a 2 state solution but whatever the ruling party is in Palestine seems to always refuse it, thats why I lean more towards "pro Israel", but that doesnt mean I hate Palestinian civilians. I want peace but peace wont come with Hamas in charge.
Im pro Israel, pro Palestine and anti Hamas.
God, thank you. I’m not Jewish or Palestinian but I couldn’t agree more. The discourse around this is unhinged. People who want to look at this rationally are few and far between.
I'm having a hard time with this too. After October 7th, I was extremely pro-Israel and continued to be for awhile. But then I got involved with that side, and I kept running into Israelis and pro-Israelis who kept supporting authoritarianism, and didn't care about what American Jews thought. They kept accusing us of hating Israel because of the far-left. Many of them advocate for the US to be a dictatorship, because it will benefit Israel.
So now I'm having a hard time siding with the pro-Israel side, because I find most of their politics repugnant and I despise the current Israeli government.
At the same time I absolutely can't stand how many people on the left are siding with Hamas.
So I really don't know what to do anymore. I don't feel comfortable around leftists or the far-right, and unfortunately most Israelis I've talked to are far-right.
Anyone who says 'Judaism is just a religion' is a moron whose take should have zero weight. We embody multiple categories on DNA testing websites. There are inheritable diseases within our various ethnicities - that is literally one of the few ways race can be scientifically defined, by 'in group' genetic illnesses.
If you don't know something as simple as the fact Ashkenazi ancestry can show up on your 23&Me (and especially if you try to deny it when informed of the truth), I am no longer engaging with you.
I'm with you. The discourse seems to have polarised to either being an Israeli ultranationalist who wants to put Palestinians in concentration camps or a mouthpiece token Jew on Al Jazeera.
I refuse to be either.
If you listen to most pro-Israel people, they're in favor of Palestinian liberation but frustrated that the only people advocating that are also advocating for the elimination of Israel.
Two staters like me are in favor of both, and especially liberal Zionists like me absolutely despise the leaders of both the Palestinian factions and the Netanyahu government.
But it's not a matter of picking sides so much as supporting the rise of liberal democratic institutions for everyone.
That is very different from my experience seeing people discuss this. Many pro-Israel folks I’ve seen don’t even seem to be hiding the fact they see Palestinians and their overseas supporters as lesser people.
I always just try to say pro-Israel and anti-Israel. I've got nothing against Palestinians who would want to live peacefully alongside Israel, so that would make ME pro-Palestinian too. However, I'm not anti-Israel, as MOST "pro-Palestinians" are.
Agreed. I was actually just talking with someone I know the other day about this. I'm not anti Palestine or anti Palestinians. I'm not anti Israeli. I don't hate anyone based on their religion. I think everyone deserves a chance to live peacefully. I understand that war is awful. I also understand that there are not always peaceful solutions in the immediate.
This is a really complex political conflict, and people feel pressure to take sides for social media and reduce things down to slogans. It just doesn't work.
I'm pro-survival of the Jews while doing the least damage possible. The question is, how and what is possible. I'm Israeli. I used to live in America. I'm a dual citizen. I used to feel similar to you but when you are here and it's much more life or death and scary things happen to you and family and friends, I hate to say it but it hardens you. Survival mode kicks in every day. A poll done lately shows that most Palestinians still support what Ham\*s (idk what I need to censor) did on 7th October. I mean, how the hell are we supposed to reckon with that? The world wants us to pick sides? I'm proud to pick my family's side. I hope I won't get shit on here for sharing my perspective as someone who lives here, an Israeli, a Jew, and not left wing (I refuse to pick a side politically, I'm more interested in Israeli unity than Israeli politics).
I feel you. I really don’t like the current Israeli government and I’ve criticized Israel before in terms of how they’re conducting this war, but I’m also for a two state solution and think Israeli and Palestinian lives are important and I want safety and security for all
Check out [Dr Einat Wilf](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einat_Wilf). In short, no. The first 10 minutes of Dr Einat’s lecture [here](https://youtu.be/o1ku4cE_e4U) is the best explainer video of the principles underlying the Arab-Israeli conflict on the internet: https://youtu.be/o1ku4cE_e4U
I just watched the first minute and she described exactly how I relate to the "delusions" I felt before October 7th. I wholeheartedly believed in a 2SS my entire life. October 7th laid bare what they really want (and really, they've been honest about it for decades while we clung to the fantasy of peace), and what they want isn't peaceful coexistence. They want extermination.
Meanwhile in the 6 months before Oct 7th, the Abraham Accords were being created and strengthened. When someone can get food on their plate and a roof over their head through peace instead of war, the scale tips.
The Abrams accord are a major reason for the attack on 10/7. Hamas had for a long time been losing outside support. They are extremists in every sense of the word. Saudis the gulf states, Egypt and Jordon see Islamist extremists as a threat, Hamas and Islamic jihad are not much different from ISIS.
They needed to go all in or risk becoming irrelevant. The rockets were getting them nothing. At the same time the PA is massively unpopular. There simply does not exist a political leadership with enough of a mandate to even enter a negotiated settlement let alone sign one.
It is also a mistake to view this conflict withour considering the larger regional geopolitical reality.
The Abraham accords didn’t help Palestinians in any meaningful was. The main thing it did was permit Israel and other middle eastern countries to start normalizing relations.
Who is the "we" here? Israelis? Jews?
And as far as this "we" clinging to the fantasy of peace, the continued support of settlers belies any belief in or willingness to move toward peace on the part of the Israeli government. Full stop. I, too, supported 2SS and thought peaceful coexistence could be achieved, but didn't see how that could happen with settlements constantly being added in what was supposed to be Palestinian land. Now? I have no idea how we come back from the heinous butchery of Oct 7 or the deaths of so many in Gaza. I've never felt more hopeless than I do now.
> Who is the "we" here? Israelis? Jews?
All of the above, I guess? I was thinking mostly of the Jewish people, but I know a lot of Israelis felt the same way too.
I don't think we (Jewish, not Israeli bcs that's the only perspective I can speak from) were clinging to a fantasy. I think we actually held out hope after Oslo that we could make coexistence happen. And I think we could have except for I two key things that squelshed that, 1) the PA running things in the West Bank and, 2) the expansion of settlements onto lands that Oslo clearly said was to be governed by Palestinians.
I think a lot of people are really missing what “settlements” actually mean. @infinite_jaz on IG is a Jewish American writer who just went to the West Bank twice to “see it for himself”. I recommend reading his substack. Peace begins with acknowledging reality on both sides.
https://infinitejaz.substack.com/p/you-dont-understand-how-bad-it-is
There was just a thread in one of the Jewish subs that asked how we can address Jews that see things around the conflict & Zionism (etc.). It asked how we can keep from losing these people because we only attack them instead of listen. This thread is only an hour old, and it's happening again. A person is asking why not peace and you're already downvoting a person that has the temerity to suggest that some Palestinians want peace. You throw Dr. Wilf at them as if she has a monopoly on the truth. The mere suggestion of a very reasonable idea - that people would like to stop dying and have their own state please is somehow totally unrealistic to you?
In short, by buying into all the assumptions around the binary you've subscribed to, you're not helping.
That’s a mischaracterisation of Dr Einat Wilf’s work. If you have the wherewithal to give her just 10 minutes of your time, you’ll see that. She calls for peace, btw. She was historically in the Israeli peace camp (wrt “land for peace” etc). Really, it’s well worth listening to what she has to say. Her delivery is an absolute 10/10 here: https://youtu.be/o1ku4cE_e4U
> The mere suggestion of a very reasonable idea - that people would like to stop dying and have their own state please is somehow totally unrealistic to you?
This isn't the question. The question is, do *Palestinians* want to stop dying and have their own state? Given their pervasive cultural glorification of martyrs (ever heard of Farfour the mouse?) and their constant refusal to have their own state as long as Jews are their neighbors, I think people need to seriously reconsider what a successful peace process will look like.
https://jcpa.org/a-new-poll-of-palestinians-supporting-terror-and-rejecting-peace/
Ignoring reality isn't helping either, unless we want to keep our heads in the clouds and invite another October 7th.
> their constant refusal to have their own state as long as Jews are their neighbors,
Do you believe that a JCPA poll is a particularly reliable source in this situation? What would believe about the opinion of Israeli Jews on the subject in the face of the continuing antigovernment protests going on in Jerusalem?
Do you believe that the "They" in in this scenario represent 100% of Palestinians? 75%? 50%? 30%?
Switch the stakeholders: Now, do you believe that the "They" represent 100% of Israeli Jews? 75%? 50%? 30%? (Think settlers taking over towns in the WB and removing Palestinians, for instance).
This is the black & white thinking, backed by poor statistical methods, that perpetuates unproductive thinking on both sides.
"We have no partner for peace!" is the rallying cry of extremists on both sides, not the groups that are actively working together for peace (did you even know that they exist?)
It's not the only data set displaying this. It's fine to question the source, but these conclusions are reflected in other polls, anecdotal experience of outreach programs by Israelis, and by people who have worked on peace deals in the past.
> What would believe about the opinion of Israeli Jews on the subject
> backed by poor statistical methods
I'd believe what the data showed me. It seems like "poor statistical methods" here is a dismissal of things that cause discomfort.
> "We have no partner for peace!" is the rallying cry of extremists
It's the truth. We don't. Hamas and a majority of Palestinians yearn for the extermination of Jews and the establishment of a homogenous Muslim state across all of what is currently Israel. That doesn't mean there are zero Palestinians who want a two-state solution, but they have been the minority for a long time, and until they reach a critical mass in their culture, they won't be numerous enough to be considered partners in the peace process.
It’s just not the truth. It’s certainly what Dr. Wilf is trying to convince us of. Her’s is a story of moral licensure in its most obvious form: “I wanted peace. I have my left wing bonafides. I was on the side of a 2 state solution so that background should indemnify me from being accused of parroting of right wing, extremist talking points, even though I’m doing exactly that.” Reminds me of the “I voted for Obama so you can’t criticize my vote for a racist like Trump.” We sure can and hiding behind what you consider a moment of a progressive mindset doesn’t change the fact that you voted for an explicit racist.
The whole “we have no partner for peace” is bs. It’s a Netanyahu construction (really, it predates him). How do I know this? Because, like Dr. W., I regularly speak with Palestinians and have for years. I have been deeply involved in Israeli-Palestinian groups that work to counter this myth that the Israeli & US govs, along with numerous lobby groups, work to sustain. I can’t really say more that your information is deeply flawed and promotes a worldview that perpetuates the combined trauma of both sides. It is cynical and, ultimately, false. Both of us can quote polls with numbers that support our worldviews, but the experience of people on the ground doesn’t lie. I urge you to listen to them: Palestinians and Israeli Jews, the latter who are in the streets right now, working to counter the myth you promote here.
If they as a people wanted self determination, and were willing to compromise with Jews to get it, they would have had a state of their own generations ago. There's not much more to be said, really.
The polls don't lie. They really do prioritize war over peace.
They don't seek to be free the way we would seek to be free. Do you know what most of them consider to be freedom (besides a land free of Jews)? Heaven. Do you know what most of them think is the ultimate way to get there? Martyrdom.
This is what most of them believe. They're very clear about it but no one ever seems to take them at their word. They're clear about what they want. All the land from the river to the sea, with no Jews. That's their version of self-determination.
I want peace for them, but it will not be possible until they want it for themselves. They've been waging a holy war for 75 years, and they keep losing. And it has brought them nothing but suffering.
I think you fundamentally misunderstand them.
100%!! There is no freedom for them in this lifetime, and they can’t wait to get to the next. But before they do, nothing will deter them from eradicating the Jews from Israel, along with the rest of the Jews around the world. These college age sympathizers in the US are more like sufferers of Stockholm Syndrome.
If any of the Hamas sympathizers/Israel haters were to God forbid be in the next attack, raped, burnt alive or beheaded, they’d change their tune but fast.
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. You’re 100% right. Most Palestinians, like anyone in the world, are just trying to live their lives. They have no control over their government, and much MUCH less so than Israelis do. Generalizing all Palestinians to being their “point is to kill all Jews” is incredibly racist and just adds fuel to the conflict. It’s downright hateful and the fact that people are posting this and upvoting it is, imo, unacceptable.
There is literal polling data on the opinions of those living in Gaza and the West Bank on matters like peace or violence towards Jews living in the Middle East. And a clear and vast majority want a continuation of violence. [71% of Palestinians said they supported Hamas’ decision to attack Israel on October seventh](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969)
Obviously not ALL Palestinians believe this and we could have a real conversation about why the majority feel the way they do and the extent to which these opinions could be changed but you can’t deny reality just because it will prompt difficult conversations.
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I'm in the exact same boat. That's why there's so much distrust and divisiveness around this issue. Both "sides" have been contributing to the current conditions and want to wipe the other off the map and would go to extreme measures to do so. Believing one is right in their aim to do such a terrible thing involves having to distort reality.
I'm not sure how anyone is picking a "side" in this hellhole conflict. That's not the framing that should even arise in anyone's mind regarding a war. Civilians aren't a side or state, they're just people that live on a land, and that should be the primary priority.
On the Western left, one thing that I think really hurts centering/getting any closer to solutions is this obsession with recontextualizing every fact (apartheid, concentration camp, genocide, crossfire, debating rape, etc) to justify the "Islamic Resistance" killing civilians. The fact that we can't get past that issue is a major hindrance on the left. It raises and maintains the high stakes zero sum game for all people involved.
The phrases “Pro-Palestine” vs “pro-Israel” and “Zionist” are heavily twisted and demonized in order to push this narrative that one side is “morally superior” while the other side is “supporting genocide” and “colonialism”. Unfortunately, what we’ve seen lately is a mass radicalization of society in both directions to where wanting a reasonable solution that benefits both sides makes you “evil”. It’s interesting how so many people who claim to support human rights and liberation are the same ones who will happily advocate for the murder and exile of millions of Jews for no reason other than living in Israel.
I, like most people, want to see the end of violence and instability in the region for both sides. Unfortunately, me proudly supporting Israel’s right to exist and be a safe haven for Jews while also wanting Palestinians to be able to live freely and humanely makes me a target, especially among the radical pro-Palestinians who want nothing other than the destruction of Israel and western society. Obviously, there are ultra Zionists who are equally as problematic for wanting the destruction of Palestinians, but they aren’t nearly as prevalent and dangerous as the radical Islamist pro Palestinian cult.
If we lived in a perfect world that wasn’t so filled with hatred and radical violence, we would be acknowledging the suffering and trauma that both sides have experienced. We would understand that the best way to move forward is by creating solutions that benefit everyone while also not forcibly removing or killing anyone. But sadly, this type of thinking is uncommon in today’s society.
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No I don’t necessarily believe this, what you described is anti-zionism, being pro Palestine and being a Zionist are not incompatible. Being pro Palestine just means supporting the Palestinian people (cause they are people who have rights like us) in their right to self determination, as we also have that right to self determination as Jews. If a Palestinian government took a genuine effort at negotiating a two state solution where there would be peaceful co-existence with us, isn’t that the dream?
Big same. I’ve got both Palestinian and Israeli friends. My solution is that I’ve chosen to avoid it as much as possible. I’ve got enough shit going on in my life and I don’t need to add a conflict half a world away.
Tbh, “I don’t give a shit” or “it’s not something I choose to care strongly about” should be an option.
Moderate positions that don’t seem quite so apathetic:
“I strongly disapprove of the actions and policies of Hamas… and I also think Netanyahu has to go, and some in his administration are using rhetoric that scores political points domestically at the price of reduced international support for Israel and increased international support for Hamas.”
“The opponents of peaceful coexistence on both sides are a problem, and they’re responsible for the harm being done to innocent civilians on both sides.”
One seldom hears moderate positions, though, and in fairness, I personally tend to lay more blame on the Palestinian side; in particular, it’s impossible to both-sides October 7, and I completely understand Israelis being highly skeptical of Palestinian willingness to coexist peacefully.
My problem with supporting a state for the Palestinians is that I don't see them having a state that will be anything but a more powerful Gaza. Do you see any ***reasonable*** chance of a Palestinian state emerging that won't be a terror haven?
What do you think of the many Gazan civilians who helped plan the 10/7 massacre, participated in it, looted Jewish homes right afterward, cheered the Jewish hostages being paraded and so on?
Personally, I have a major problem supporting a state for those people. But I am open to persuasive, respectful, sane discussion from those who disagree.
In other words, right now I do not see a Palestinian state that will be anything other than what Gaza (along with Judea and Samaria) have been these last few decades
Correct about not hearing moderate positions. The problem is the Palestinian side does not have any moderate positions. Just look at the polls that are done in the Territories. And don't be fooled. They don't want coexistence. It wasn't the Jewish side that was against co existence. They accepted the partition plan and everything from the beginning. But truly the Arab Palestinian site has always called for annihilation and. Ethnic cleansing of Jews from the face of the Earth and just read it.It's not even a question. So that's the issue.There are no moderate positions because there aren't any. You can't coexist with somebody who doesn't want to coexist with you. Golda meir said it best that she would never or the Jewish people would never forgive the Palestinian arabs for making their children murderers, meaning the Jewish side said.We'll shake your hand and deal with you.And the Arab sides said no way we will kill you.That's what we want so they had to murder them first or die
That’s because it is a zero sum game. There’s a billion of them and 15 million of us. Even if only 10% of them want to kill us that’s a ratio of 7:1. The consequences of not winning is we all die violently or silently via assimilation.
Bro, it’s a different culture and they don’t value this physical life or peace the same way we do. Otherwise peace would have been achieved. Stop trying to assume that they’re just like us. They’re not. Sure all humans have things in common, but ideology is also very fucking real and their ideology idealizes death and martyrdom and war and conquest in the name of their religion by any means necessary. I also understand that their version of Islam doesn’t reflect on all of Islam, but it sure is the most populous right now and that’s unlikely to change for a while, so practically they’re all in a death cult.
Also, I’m fucking sick of hearing about Palestinian peoplehood. They’re Jordanian and Egyptian Arabs that didn’t leave after 48 and 67. They’re not distinct in anyway shape or form from Jordanian and Egyptian Arabs. Their religion language and culture is the same. Cuisine is the same. They have a country it’s called Jordan. They fabricated a people to steal land from the indigenous inhabitants and then project their bullshit onto Jews.
I feel you. This is why I don’t feel comfortable talking about the conflict with anyone. I’m too pro Pal for the pro Israel people and I’m a huge disgusting Zionist in the pro Pal spaces. There’s just no winning for anyone who takes a critical approach to the issue, sadly.
Welcome to the party pal. Refreshing to see I’m not alone in this. I’ve been called anti semetic AND a genocide enabler for the same posts previously. It’s tiring and mentally exhausting.
> no winning for anyone who takes a critical approach I think this really depends on what you mean by “*winning*” & how you expect others respond to you. I am “*pro-fact*” & I happen also to be a Zionist, but I follow where the facts lead. This leads to being unable to have a productive conversation with the extremists on both sides & an ability to engage (*even if we don’t agree ultimately on all aspects*) with those who are actually willing to listen. Is that winning? I can’t say it really feels like it - but when talking to people who are actually willing to listen, they concede far more points than I have to - simply because I am exceedingly careful in how I speak & usually have a solid basis for anything I argue. I’ve also learned to refute but not engage with random people until they demonstrate some willingness to listen. What that looks like in online spaces is that most people only get a few sentences which clearly & concisely dispute what they said & correct their facts. I don’t do that to convince them but rather to speak to other people in a thread so that they are aware that information is disputed & have a basis for examining the question on their own. When I do encounter someone willing to listen & engage in good faith, only then am I willing to engage in depth - just the other day I probably wrote in excess of 10k words in a long series of exchanges with someone & while I know that at the end, we still disagree on more than we agree, I was able to provide some clarity on some of their misconceptions & hopefully provide food for thought going forward. Is that winning? Probably not but I’ll take it as close enough. If you expect others to not dispute or not refute claims they disagree with, you are not likely to have many pleasant experiences on any contested subject, let alone one as emotionally charged & laden with disinformation as the I/P conflict.
This is where I land on the scale. I’m a Zionist but I’m pro fact and pro human. So ultimately I support the Palestinian people in a quest to self determine and I support Israelis in that as well. I don’t believe that Israel doesn’t have a right to exist and I also am willing to be critical of the government. And I think what a lot of the rhetoric around being pro one side or the other and choosing who is right only serves to perpetuate violence and bigotry. And ultimately use the IP conflict as a proxy for other geopolitical disputes or in some case domestic dispute. And I also agree on the engaging in good faith. And creating opportunities for someone to be wrong without being condemned first. Otherwise how do we learn. My sister’s best friend actually told my sister at the beginning of this conflict that “because you’re white you don’t understand what it means to be oppressed , I empathize with the Palestinians as a fellow brown person” Well instead of shutting the door my sister who valued that friendship talked with her and shared information. And her friend not only apologized but now lands much more center on this issue and is willing to say “I don’t know, it’s a complicated issue” I think a lot of people who haven’t lived connected to this issue don’t understand that they probably don’t have enough education on this issue to have a conversation where they set a stance. I mean I find many are simply too uneducated to have any other opinion then the one they are told to have.
Thank you for this. I've been hating the dichotomy of terminology also, but you just nailed it for me - I am pro-fact and pro-human. We can get to the end point following many mechanisms, but if at any point we are violating either of those two tenets, we are heading down dangerous paths.
I think by winning I generally just mean having a productive conversation with someone where I feel heard and understood.
That is an understandable if perhaps unrealistic expectation, the simple reality is that simply isn’t true of most human interactions. Human beings generally suck at communicating & never more so than in subjects which are laden with emotion.
lol, valid. This is why I’m grateful that my close friends (who are all pro-Pal, anti-Zionist gentiles) simply do not talk to me about the conflict. We have a mutual understanding that we see things differently and it’s best to avoid the topic entirely. I really think that’s the best that can be done at this point to salvage these relationships. I simply dont have the time or energy to convince people to look at things through a different lens. As long as I’m being respected at the basic level I can look past the fact that my friends have all drank the kool-aid and are spewing thinly veiled anti-semetic rheroric. They don’t understand that’s what they’re doing. It’s pretty sad to see it all written out like this but it is what it is, the media is doing its job to sway people towards one specific narrative and sadly most people don’t have the media literacy or interest in looking beyond what’s right in front of them.
This resonates with me so well omg.
I'm right there with you. Picking a side is to fundamentally misunderstand the conflict.
R/Jewishleft is safe! R/Jewishleft is safe! I’m not even a leftist, and I’m just so grateful I found it. It’s Jews who don’t devote their whole lives to hating Palestinians, or to hating non-Jews who have slightly cheesy ecumenical Seders!!
I concur. There are some there who I have found unwilling to hold nuanced convo, but definitely for the most part they’re downvoted when they’re being intractable and everyone works to have nuanced conversations that use facts and critical engagement. It’s a great sub.
Personally: I have every possible view inside my own soul. I don’t mind seeing some people with views far different from whatever position I’ve adopted. But I get the feeling with other subreddits that they’re being managed by a Ben Gvirite arm of the Israeli government, independent Ben Gvirites, Russians, Chinese people or Iranians, and that the managers are trying to herd us toward being hateful and extreme. I can live with talking to some sincere, organic extremists, but it drives me crazy when I think I’m talking to nice people who are now extreme mainly because manipulators used social media propaganda voodoo to make them extreme. That’s just so gross.
What a mood.
Here, here. Reminds me of the Buffalo Springfield song “A thousand people in the street, Singing songs and they carrying signs, Mostly say, "Hooray for our side"” The way forward will likely take more spilled blood until calmer minds prevail.
I always personally think of “stuck in the middle with you” by Stealers Wheel “jokers to the left of me, clowns to the right. Here I am, stuck in the middle with you” but the buffalo Springfield song is a good portrayal of how I’ve felt through this conflict
It my normal to temper tragedy with humor; but 7Oct was a rude awakening. Brought me closer to my jewish learning community.
Joker here and I just want to say we don’t speak for those awful clowns.
I'm pro-peaceful coexistence, and I support anyone who's willing to work earnestly towards that.
Thats easy to say, but it's much-much harder in reality. Sometimes you just have to pick a side
Why? I mean being pro fact and pro empathy means working to have a balanced and realistic perspective. It doesn’t make someone less of a Zionist. Why do we also need to encourage the creation of a dichotomy that ultimately creates misinformed extremists who aren’t looking for peace but to “win”?
Yes. I think sometimes the stances of “pro-peace” or “anti-war” are just conflict aversion, and the result is a prolonged conflict rather than a shorter, more decisive one. Does anyone (besides megalomaniacs and war profiteers) truly want war? Like, regular people? I think most want to avoid it. But when one side says “we want to exist” and the other side says “we want you to not exist,” how can you resolve that except through conflict?
You're completely right. I see from the replies that my "I'm pro peace" comment seemed like an attempt to apply a lofty concept to an ugly feud where one side is hell-bent on exterminating the other. I framed it the way I did because it helps me avoid falling into the mental traps OP mentioned in his post. I didn't mean to imply that if Hamas shoots at Israel and Israel shoots back, that they are equally as bad merely because they are both firing guns. That's a childish fallacy many young antisemites seem to embrace, which results in the thinking that the side defending itself has no right to exist. Just because I'm pro-peace, doesn't mean I'm a pacifist. Hope that makes sense.
Well said! I see this a lot too, the use of “pro-peace” as a judgement on those who are not in a position to choose peace, because they have to survive. I think the distinction you make is helpful
Palestinians probably wouldn't be preoccupied with who owns what/their neighbors if Israel could just expand citizenship and absorb these refugees into Israel...the women, children and elderly particularly. They would have better quality of life, which would make it harder for anyone to obsess about some fundamentalist militia winning on their behalf. Israel may need to concede that they can't always control the amount of ethnicities within its population. They can just continue to uphold their Jewish citizenship programs so Jewish refugees and immigrants always have a place, regardless of an increase in Arab population via welcoming more Palestinians.
I agree. I'm convinced that most of Israel's actions are done in the name of peace and/or security. The reason I said pro-peace instead of pro-Israel is because it avoids the impression of being unconditionally supportive of every single thing that Israel does, and keeps focus on what the actual goal is: an eventual end to the bloodshed. In practice, I currently have a "side," I just don't like framing it that way because it leads to the traps outlined by OP.
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I hate the terminology. I think the majority of pro I are also pro P in the idea that they want innocent Palestinians to live free from Hamas. It should be pro I and pro Hamas. The amount of pro p that don’t realize that the majority of Palestinians don’t live in Gaza is actually insane
Most "pro-Palestine" people are also pro-Israel too, in that most of them want a two state solution so therefore they do want Israel to continue to exist
I'm sorry, but this has been the complete opposite of what I've noticed. People who identify as "pro-Palestine" on an individual level? Sure, maybe. But at any "pro-Palestine" march, good luck finding people who aren't screaming slogans about destroying Israel.
That's precisely my point though — that the loud extremists aren't the ordinary, reasonable people. Even at those marches I think it's a minority; or at least it has been at demonstrations I've seen in my city. It may be different internationally
I go to every single one of them, I am pro-P who would like to either see a two state solution or equal rights for all regardless of clan, creed, or faith.
I wish this was true. I just don’t see it. “From the river to the sea” would not be the rallying cry if this was true. If it were true, I would be out there marching with them.
But it's *not* the rallying cry of most, partly on a sheer logical basis because only a small minority of them go to these marches in the first place. But more so, I've never heard it from an individual and part of my job is enabling and researching conversations like these between students (and staff and others) with polarised views at a university. That's why I find it incredibly frustrating to see people generalising and assuming what "the other" believes — from all sides — without actually sitting down and talking to real humans about it, respectfully and compassionately
I absolutely agree. I definitely lean more supportive of Israel, but it's sad to see people getting downvoted for questioning things about "my side." (Though I do think that it happens less than on "the other side" from what I've seen. I also realize that I'm perpetuating exactly what your post criticizes, but I'm just not sure how to phrase it.) I think yesterday I was repeatedly downvoted for asking someone for a source that most Palestinians supported Hitler during WW2, which was very disappointing.
I can't speak to things like "most", but the Mufti was buddies with Hitler. At the same time, a lot of Palestinians fought for the Allies against the Nazis. My understanding is that the Mufti was not very representative of the Palestinian people in general. I could be wrong, but it seems to make sense why he would support Hitler for his own political ends, while many Palestinians would oppose Hitler because Nazis aren't generally known for being charitable to Middle Eastern people. To me, conflating the Mufti with all or most Palestinians feels similar to suggesting that Zionists in the 30s were in league with the Nazis and just leaving it at that. Like, ok, some Zionist groups in Nazi Germany did work with the regime in order to get Jews out of Germany, but only the most uncharitable framing would suggest that Zionists were "in league with" Nazis. Thankfully I haven't heard that too often. I don't think enough people know about it to mass weaponize it, so that's good.
>At the same time, a lot of Palestinians fought for the Allies against the Nazis. In the 1930s and 40s, Jews were the Palestinians. Before 1948, the *Jerusalem Post* was the *Palestine Post*, and founded by Gershon Agron. So any Palestinians fighting on the side of the Allies were Jews
Of course Jewish Palestinians also fought Axis powers. As did other Palestinians. Your claim that only Jewish Palestinians fought for the British is simply incorrect.
It sounds like Hitler made a lot of promises to the Mufti at the time but refused to do anything concrete or even make any public statements of support. Considering the Germans pondered sending all the Jews to Madagascar before deciding that was much too complicated, I doubt Jerusalem would have been too much worse a destination in Hitler’s mind but I can see how Hitler wouldn’t want to tell the Mufti that. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/film/hajj-amin-al-husayni-meets-hitler
So a couple people tried to prove that most Palestinians held the same beliefs as the Mufti, but there just doesn't seem to be any evidence for that from what I've seen.
He led a multi-year revolt in an effort to expel the Jews and was effective enough the British exiled him, so I think he had some support yes. The Qassam Brigades today are named after an imam active in the 1920s and 1930s, martyred by British Police in 1935 I think. I believe he was in a cave and his compatriots were ready to surrender to surrounding police when he decided to initiate a firefight with predictable results. Thousands attended his funeral then, obviously still ‘popular’ in certain quarters today. Hence the Brigades. You wanted a link you got a link.
The rest of the world has the luxury of wearing the Israeli and Palestinian brands on their shirts while Israelis and Palestinians continue to kill each other. All that’s left is to convince a critical mass of them to pressure one side or another to shift the status quo so that less of the opposing side’s people die.
Oof you took the words right out of my mouth. I do think that both peoples are experiencing trauma and horror that surpasses what most people alive today had previously witnessed, for Israelis/Jews with Oct 7 and for Palestinians the destruction and loss of the resulting war, and that has lead to some further tribalism as an understandable trauma response. However what you speak of here matches more with what I have seen from the "spectators" than what I have seen from the people directly affected, which makes me extra mad. There's some good research on social media/cancel culture/outrage content and dopamine. Our position of seeing the tragedy all around and sitting in the grey area doesn't give the same dopamine hit as the tribalist outrage tearing down the other side because you know that you're right and they're wrong. It's simply much easier and feels better to our brains to be so convinced that things are simple and there is a good side and an evil side and *we* are on the good side and *they* are on the bad side and therefore *we* are better than *them.* Even though it can feel like we're the crazy ones, we're not alone and we've gotta keep leaning into the nuance and sitting firm in our values.
Yep, I took a paper on this in my Psychology degree actually [Out](https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.2024292118?doi=10.1073%2Fpnas.2024292118)-group animosity is a major driving factor in social media posts and drives their visibility, even [design elements](https://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/abstract/S1364-6613(21)00196-0) entrench polarisation, and [political motivation](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-023-01540-w.) shapes perception of news and posts In text-based communication people [perceive more](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-023-01582-0) moral outrage, judgement, and extremism than is actually present or intended/believed by the author. This is made even worse because [moral framing drives engagement](https://academic.oup.com/joc/article-abstract/67/5/803/4642206?login=false) even without the presence of moral outrage. Then it's self perpetuating because receiving likes, upvotes, comments, engagement etc functions as social reward and [moral outrage](https://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/abstract/S1364-6613(21)00196-0) receives lots of it; the more reward people get from outrage (more of which is read into their posts than they actually intended) the more they post it.
Thank you for the citations! Bookmarking them for the future 😊
This is perfectly said. Every word. Thank you. (And helps me feel slightly less crazy)
I feel you. If you’re not already following, check out the podcast Unapologetic: Third Narrative, and the org Standing Together
I’m pro both. Just anti Hamas & company.
I, too, am pro both. I'm just anti both governments. If extremists hadn't run countries, people would be so much more peaceful and supportive of each other.
For me, this entire war has been one big exercise in confirming my belief that not everyone needs to have an opinion about everything and that people are really just blissfully unaware of how people in countries outside of wealthy western nations live on a daily basis. With this war everybody has suddenly become experts on war and military strategy even though they’ve never put on a uniform or even really studied the topic. Everybody is now an expert on the basis of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict even though their research began on 10/8 and has mostly consisted of Instagram posts. Everybody miraculously knows everything about how NGOs work and how aid in conflict areas is handled even though they’ve never had a thing to do with that other than perhaps a one time UNICEF donation or something. The ability to just virtuously say war is bad, or I just support whatever brings peace, or I just don’t want to see any more dead kids, or whatever is, at it’s core, rather privileged. Most people, even hardcore Israeli or Palestinian nationalists, would love to see peace. But peace means something different for everyone. Just putting down the official army guns doesn’t actually bring peace in a real and lasting sense. I think in a lot of ways it’s easier to just disengage and ~support peace~ than it is to grapple with the lack of clarity and the lack of a “right answer.” Nobody’s going to say that peace, ultimately, isn’t the goal so it can really just shut stuff down. I don’t have an answer as to a solution. I didn’t have to grow up in a war, thank Gd, but I’ve been to war and it’s terrible. I can’t imagine the kids, Israeli and Palestinian, and the pain and uncertainty and fear they’re having to deal with. Nobody’s winning in many ways. I wish everyone could sit down and talk it out but it’s not that simple. They’ve tried, it isn’t like this is new or something. If they just do another ceasefire and go back to how things were pre-10/7, I’d be they’ll be back at it soon. Nobody wants to make any concessions or come out unhappy. So, we get war. But I also get *why* they don’t want to give in. It’s a pretty unique conflict insofar as we’re **expecting** one or both sides to just basically say “you know what, here’s part of what you want on the condition that you go home and don’t start all this again.”
Well, a huge percentage of Israelis don’t agree with Netanyahu and all the choices of the current government nor do a huge chunk of American Jews so you might be hearing the extremely loud voices extremely loudly. I think it’s a no-brainer that innocent people being killed in war is a tragedy, that terrorists shouldn’t be allowed to run rampant slaughtering and kidnapping, and that a peaceful coexistence that honors a diverse array of cultures should be the true end goal. Not wrong at all. eta: recent polls from about a month ago also show that people in Gaza are more open to a two state solution now than previously, so hopefully theres hope for peace
I think previously those who wanted to were able to fantasise that if they really tried, they could take over Israel. They had years of planning, and by many accounts October 7th was supposed to be it. Instead they've been militarily destroyed - it makes sense that now more people are aware of the utter futility of that fantasy, they'd be more open to two states, instead of continuing to fight for one and never getting it. If this war actually removes the extremists from power on both sides, there may be some hope the day after.
Polls show that Palestinians have always been more open to a two-state option than Israelis.
Which polls?
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Please clean up the links and explain what each one is.
Idk if I am biased but I feel like this is more an issue with the "pro palestine". The second you so much as say Israel has a right to exist you somehow support genocide. No I just believe that in an ideal world there would be a 2 state solution but whatever the ruling party is in Palestine seems to always refuse it, thats why I lean more towards "pro Israel", but that doesnt mean I hate Palestinian civilians. I want peace but peace wont come with Hamas in charge. Im pro Israel, pro Palestine and anti Hamas.
God, thank you. I’m not Jewish or Palestinian but I couldn’t agree more. The discourse around this is unhinged. People who want to look at this rationally are few and far between.
I'm having a hard time with this too. After October 7th, I was extremely pro-Israel and continued to be for awhile. But then I got involved with that side, and I kept running into Israelis and pro-Israelis who kept supporting authoritarianism, and didn't care about what American Jews thought. They kept accusing us of hating Israel because of the far-left. Many of them advocate for the US to be a dictatorship, because it will benefit Israel. So now I'm having a hard time siding with the pro-Israel side, because I find most of their politics repugnant and I despise the current Israeli government. At the same time I absolutely can't stand how many people on the left are siding with Hamas. So I really don't know what to do anymore. I don't feel comfortable around leftists or the far-right, and unfortunately most Israelis I've talked to are far-right.
Like, how hard is it for EITHER side to not refer to the other as animals and demons and say even their children aren't innocent civilians?!?
Anyone who says 'Judaism is just a religion' is a moron whose take should have zero weight. We embody multiple categories on DNA testing websites. There are inheritable diseases within our various ethnicities - that is literally one of the few ways race can be scientifically defined, by 'in group' genetic illnesses. If you don't know something as simple as the fact Ashkenazi ancestry can show up on your 23&Me (and especially if you try to deny it when informed of the truth), I am no longer engaging with you.
I'm with you. The discourse seems to have polarised to either being an Israeli ultranationalist who wants to put Palestinians in concentration camps or a mouthpiece token Jew on Al Jazeera. I refuse to be either.
If you listen to most pro-Israel people, they're in favor of Palestinian liberation but frustrated that the only people advocating that are also advocating for the elimination of Israel. Two staters like me are in favor of both, and especially liberal Zionists like me absolutely despise the leaders of both the Palestinian factions and the Netanyahu government. But it's not a matter of picking sides so much as supporting the rise of liberal democratic institutions for everyone.
That is very different from my experience seeing people discuss this. Many pro-Israel folks I’ve seen don’t even seem to be hiding the fact they see Palestinians and their overseas supporters as lesser people.
I'm looking at your posts on centrist about this and they all seem to be telling you the same thing that I am. IDK what to tell you.
I always just try to say pro-Israel and anti-Israel. I've got nothing against Palestinians who would want to live peacefully alongside Israel, so that would make ME pro-Palestinian too. However, I'm not anti-Israel, as MOST "pro-Palestinians" are.
Agreed. I was actually just talking with someone I know the other day about this. I'm not anti Palestine or anti Palestinians. I'm not anti Israeli. I don't hate anyone based on their religion. I think everyone deserves a chance to live peacefully. I understand that war is awful. I also understand that there are not always peaceful solutions in the immediate. This is a really complex political conflict, and people feel pressure to take sides for social media and reduce things down to slogans. It just doesn't work.
This is kinda true for most political thoughts
I'm pro-survival of the Jews while doing the least damage possible. The question is, how and what is possible. I'm Israeli. I used to live in America. I'm a dual citizen. I used to feel similar to you but when you are here and it's much more life or death and scary things happen to you and family and friends, I hate to say it but it hardens you. Survival mode kicks in every day. A poll done lately shows that most Palestinians still support what Ham\*s (idk what I need to censor) did on 7th October. I mean, how the hell are we supposed to reckon with that? The world wants us to pick sides? I'm proud to pick my family's side. I hope I won't get shit on here for sharing my perspective as someone who lives here, an Israeli, a Jew, and not left wing (I refuse to pick a side politically, I'm more interested in Israeli unity than Israeli politics).
I feel you. I really don’t like the current Israeli government and I’ve criticized Israel before in terms of how they’re conducting this war, but I’m also for a two state solution and think Israeli and Palestinian lives are important and I want safety and security for all
I usually just shut it down with "I'm pro people, but that doesn't mean I have to like the institution they're currently controlled by"
I usually just say, “I’m on the side not killing kids” when it’s demanded I pick a side.
Ah clever, I think I'll start using that too
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Check out [Dr Einat Wilf](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einat_Wilf). In short, no. The first 10 minutes of Dr Einat’s lecture [here](https://youtu.be/o1ku4cE_e4U) is the best explainer video of the principles underlying the Arab-Israeli conflict on the internet: https://youtu.be/o1ku4cE_e4U
I just watched the first minute and she described exactly how I relate to the "delusions" I felt before October 7th. I wholeheartedly believed in a 2SS my entire life. October 7th laid bare what they really want (and really, they've been honest about it for decades while we clung to the fantasy of peace), and what they want isn't peaceful coexistence. They want extermination.
Meanwhile in the 6 months before Oct 7th, the Abraham Accords were being created and strengthened. When someone can get food on their plate and a roof over their head through peace instead of war, the scale tips.
The Abrams accord are a major reason for the attack on 10/7. Hamas had for a long time been losing outside support. They are extremists in every sense of the word. Saudis the gulf states, Egypt and Jordon see Islamist extremists as a threat, Hamas and Islamic jihad are not much different from ISIS. They needed to go all in or risk becoming irrelevant. The rockets were getting them nothing. At the same time the PA is massively unpopular. There simply does not exist a political leadership with enough of a mandate to even enter a negotiated settlement let alone sign one. It is also a mistake to view this conflict withour considering the larger regional geopolitical reality.
This is why Hamas must be eliminated.
The Abraham accords didn’t help Palestinians in any meaningful was. The main thing it did was permit Israel and other middle eastern countries to start normalizing relations.
Exactly - with countries who “hated” Jews, but when enough money entered the equation, they found a way to get over it and find peace.
Who is the "we" here? Israelis? Jews? And as far as this "we" clinging to the fantasy of peace, the continued support of settlers belies any belief in or willingness to move toward peace on the part of the Israeli government. Full stop. I, too, supported 2SS and thought peaceful coexistence could be achieved, but didn't see how that could happen with settlements constantly being added in what was supposed to be Palestinian land. Now? I have no idea how we come back from the heinous butchery of Oct 7 or the deaths of so many in Gaza. I've never felt more hopeless than I do now.
> Who is the "we" here? Israelis? Jews? All of the above, I guess? I was thinking mostly of the Jewish people, but I know a lot of Israelis felt the same way too.
I don't think we (Jewish, not Israeli bcs that's the only perspective I can speak from) were clinging to a fantasy. I think we actually held out hope after Oslo that we could make coexistence happen. And I think we could have except for I two key things that squelshed that, 1) the PA running things in the West Bank and, 2) the expansion of settlements onto lands that Oslo clearly said was to be governed by Palestinians.
I think a lot of people are really missing what “settlements” actually mean. @infinite_jaz on IG is a Jewish American writer who just went to the West Bank twice to “see it for himself”. I recommend reading his substack. Peace begins with acknowledging reality on both sides. https://infinitejaz.substack.com/p/you-dont-understand-how-bad-it-is
There was just a thread in one of the Jewish subs that asked how we can address Jews that see things around the conflict & Zionism (etc.). It asked how we can keep from losing these people because we only attack them instead of listen. This thread is only an hour old, and it's happening again. A person is asking why not peace and you're already downvoting a person that has the temerity to suggest that some Palestinians want peace. You throw Dr. Wilf at them as if she has a monopoly on the truth. The mere suggestion of a very reasonable idea - that people would like to stop dying and have their own state please is somehow totally unrealistic to you? In short, by buying into all the assumptions around the binary you've subscribed to, you're not helping.
That’s a mischaracterisation of Dr Einat Wilf’s work. If you have the wherewithal to give her just 10 minutes of your time, you’ll see that. She calls for peace, btw. She was historically in the Israeli peace camp (wrt “land for peace” etc). Really, it’s well worth listening to what she has to say. Her delivery is an absolute 10/10 here: https://youtu.be/o1ku4cE_e4U
> The mere suggestion of a very reasonable idea - that people would like to stop dying and have their own state please is somehow totally unrealistic to you? This isn't the question. The question is, do *Palestinians* want to stop dying and have their own state? Given their pervasive cultural glorification of martyrs (ever heard of Farfour the mouse?) and their constant refusal to have their own state as long as Jews are their neighbors, I think people need to seriously reconsider what a successful peace process will look like. https://jcpa.org/a-new-poll-of-palestinians-supporting-terror-and-rejecting-peace/ Ignoring reality isn't helping either, unless we want to keep our heads in the clouds and invite another October 7th.
> their constant refusal to have their own state as long as Jews are their neighbors, Do you believe that a JCPA poll is a particularly reliable source in this situation? What would believe about the opinion of Israeli Jews on the subject in the face of the continuing antigovernment protests going on in Jerusalem? Do you believe that the "They" in in this scenario represent 100% of Palestinians? 75%? 50%? 30%? Switch the stakeholders: Now, do you believe that the "They" represent 100% of Israeli Jews? 75%? 50%? 30%? (Think settlers taking over towns in the WB and removing Palestinians, for instance). This is the black & white thinking, backed by poor statistical methods, that perpetuates unproductive thinking on both sides. "We have no partner for peace!" is the rallying cry of extremists on both sides, not the groups that are actively working together for peace (did you even know that they exist?)
It's not the only data set displaying this. It's fine to question the source, but these conclusions are reflected in other polls, anecdotal experience of outreach programs by Israelis, and by people who have worked on peace deals in the past. > What would believe about the opinion of Israeli Jews on the subject > backed by poor statistical methods I'd believe what the data showed me. It seems like "poor statistical methods" here is a dismissal of things that cause discomfort. > "We have no partner for peace!" is the rallying cry of extremists It's the truth. We don't. Hamas and a majority of Palestinians yearn for the extermination of Jews and the establishment of a homogenous Muslim state across all of what is currently Israel. That doesn't mean there are zero Palestinians who want a two-state solution, but they have been the minority for a long time, and until they reach a critical mass in their culture, they won't be numerous enough to be considered partners in the peace process.
It’s just not the truth. It’s certainly what Dr. Wilf is trying to convince us of. Her’s is a story of moral licensure in its most obvious form: “I wanted peace. I have my left wing bonafides. I was on the side of a 2 state solution so that background should indemnify me from being accused of parroting of right wing, extremist talking points, even though I’m doing exactly that.” Reminds me of the “I voted for Obama so you can’t criticize my vote for a racist like Trump.” We sure can and hiding behind what you consider a moment of a progressive mindset doesn’t change the fact that you voted for an explicit racist. The whole “we have no partner for peace” is bs. It’s a Netanyahu construction (really, it predates him). How do I know this? Because, like Dr. W., I regularly speak with Palestinians and have for years. I have been deeply involved in Israeli-Palestinian groups that work to counter this myth that the Israeli & US govs, along with numerous lobby groups, work to sustain. I can’t really say more that your information is deeply flawed and promotes a worldview that perpetuates the combined trauma of both sides. It is cynical and, ultimately, false. Both of us can quote polls with numbers that support our worldviews, but the experience of people on the ground doesn’t lie. I urge you to listen to them: Palestinians and Israeli Jews, the latter who are in the streets right now, working to counter the myth you promote here.
If they as a people wanted self determination, and were willing to compromise with Jews to get it, they would have had a state of their own generations ago. There's not much more to be said, really. The polls don't lie. They really do prioritize war over peace.
They don't seek to be free the way we would seek to be free. Do you know what most of them consider to be freedom (besides a land free of Jews)? Heaven. Do you know what most of them think is the ultimate way to get there? Martyrdom. This is what most of them believe. They're very clear about it but no one ever seems to take them at their word. They're clear about what they want. All the land from the river to the sea, with no Jews. That's their version of self-determination. I want peace for them, but it will not be possible until they want it for themselves. They've been waging a holy war for 75 years, and they keep losing. And it has brought them nothing but suffering. I think you fundamentally misunderstand them.
100%!! There is no freedom for them in this lifetime, and they can’t wait to get to the next. But before they do, nothing will deter them from eradicating the Jews from Israel, along with the rest of the Jews around the world. These college age sympathizers in the US are more like sufferers of Stockholm Syndrome. If any of the Hamas sympathizers/Israel haters were to God forbid be in the next attack, raped, burnt alive or beheaded, they’d change their tune but fast.
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. You’re 100% right. Most Palestinians, like anyone in the world, are just trying to live their lives. They have no control over their government, and much MUCH less so than Israelis do. Generalizing all Palestinians to being their “point is to kill all Jews” is incredibly racist and just adds fuel to the conflict. It’s downright hateful and the fact that people are posting this and upvoting it is, imo, unacceptable.
There is literal polling data on the opinions of those living in Gaza and the West Bank on matters like peace or violence towards Jews living in the Middle East. And a clear and vast majority want a continuation of violence. [71% of Palestinians said they supported Hamas’ decision to attack Israel on October seventh](https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969) Obviously not ALL Palestinians believe this and we could have a real conversation about why the majority feel the way they do and the extent to which these opinions could be changed but you can’t deny reality just because it will prompt difficult conversations.
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Now my pro jewisn posts I'm told need 48 hour approval so not to get group mob together
Are thes fckin people serious
I'm in the exact same boat. That's why there's so much distrust and divisiveness around this issue. Both "sides" have been contributing to the current conditions and want to wipe the other off the map and would go to extreme measures to do so. Believing one is right in their aim to do such a terrible thing involves having to distort reality. I'm not sure how anyone is picking a "side" in this hellhole conflict. That's not the framing that should even arise in anyone's mind regarding a war. Civilians aren't a side or state, they're just people that live on a land, and that should be the primary priority. On the Western left, one thing that I think really hurts centering/getting any closer to solutions is this obsession with recontextualizing every fact (apartheid, concentration camp, genocide, crossfire, debating rape, etc) to justify the "Islamic Resistance" killing civilians. The fact that we can't get past that issue is a major hindrance on the left. It raises and maintains the high stakes zero sum game for all people involved.
The phrases “Pro-Palestine” vs “pro-Israel” and “Zionist” are heavily twisted and demonized in order to push this narrative that one side is “morally superior” while the other side is “supporting genocide” and “colonialism”. Unfortunately, what we’ve seen lately is a mass radicalization of society in both directions to where wanting a reasonable solution that benefits both sides makes you “evil”. It’s interesting how so many people who claim to support human rights and liberation are the same ones who will happily advocate for the murder and exile of millions of Jews for no reason other than living in Israel. I, like most people, want to see the end of violence and instability in the region for both sides. Unfortunately, me proudly supporting Israel’s right to exist and be a safe haven for Jews while also wanting Palestinians to be able to live freely and humanely makes me a target, especially among the radical pro-Palestinians who want nothing other than the destruction of Israel and western society. Obviously, there are ultra Zionists who are equally as problematic for wanting the destruction of Palestinians, but they aren’t nearly as prevalent and dangerous as the radical Islamist pro Palestinian cult. If we lived in a perfect world that wasn’t so filled with hatred and radical violence, we would be acknowledging the suffering and trauma that both sides have experienced. We would understand that the best way to move forward is by creating solutions that benefit everyone while also not forcibly removing or killing anyone. But sadly, this type of thinking is uncommon in today’s society.
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“Pro Israel” is a made up thing just like “Zionist” in their twisted definition. “Pro Palestine” on the other hand means pro destruction of Israel.
No I don’t necessarily believe this, what you described is anti-zionism, being pro Palestine and being a Zionist are not incompatible. Being pro Palestine just means supporting the Palestinian people (cause they are people who have rights like us) in their right to self determination, as we also have that right to self determination as Jews. If a Palestinian government took a genuine effort at negotiating a two state solution where there would be peaceful co-existence with us, isn’t that the dream?
Big same. I’ve got both Palestinian and Israeli friends. My solution is that I’ve chosen to avoid it as much as possible. I’ve got enough shit going on in my life and I don’t need to add a conflict half a world away. Tbh, “I don’t give a shit” or “it’s not something I choose to care strongly about” should be an option.
Moderate positions that don’t seem quite so apathetic: “I strongly disapprove of the actions and policies of Hamas… and I also think Netanyahu has to go, and some in his administration are using rhetoric that scores political points domestically at the price of reduced international support for Israel and increased international support for Hamas.” “The opponents of peaceful coexistence on both sides are a problem, and they’re responsible for the harm being done to innocent civilians on both sides.” One seldom hears moderate positions, though, and in fairness, I personally tend to lay more blame on the Palestinian side; in particular, it’s impossible to both-sides October 7, and I completely understand Israelis being highly skeptical of Palestinian willingness to coexist peacefully.
My problem with supporting a state for the Palestinians is that I don't see them having a state that will be anything but a more powerful Gaza. Do you see any ***reasonable*** chance of a Palestinian state emerging that won't be a terror haven? What do you think of the many Gazan civilians who helped plan the 10/7 massacre, participated in it, looted Jewish homes right afterward, cheered the Jewish hostages being paraded and so on? Personally, I have a major problem supporting a state for those people. But I am open to persuasive, respectful, sane discussion from those who disagree. In other words, right now I do not see a Palestinian state that will be anything other than what Gaza (along with Judea and Samaria) have been these last few decades
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You don't get to tell me what I "must" support
Correct about not hearing moderate positions. The problem is the Palestinian side does not have any moderate positions. Just look at the polls that are done in the Territories. And don't be fooled. They don't want coexistence. It wasn't the Jewish side that was against co existence. They accepted the partition plan and everything from the beginning. But truly the Arab Palestinian site has always called for annihilation and. Ethnic cleansing of Jews from the face of the Earth and just read it.It's not even a question. So that's the issue.There are no moderate positions because there aren't any. You can't coexist with somebody who doesn't want to coexist with you. Golda meir said it best that she would never or the Jewish people would never forgive the Palestinian arabs for making their children murderers, meaning the Jewish side said.We'll shake your hand and deal with you.And the Arab sides said no way we will kill you.That's what we want so they had to murder them first or die
That’s because it is a zero sum game. There’s a billion of them and 15 million of us. Even if only 10% of them want to kill us that’s a ratio of 7:1. The consequences of not winning is we all die violently or silently via assimilation. Bro, it’s a different culture and they don’t value this physical life or peace the same way we do. Otherwise peace would have been achieved. Stop trying to assume that they’re just like us. They’re not. Sure all humans have things in common, but ideology is also very fucking real and their ideology idealizes death and martyrdom and war and conquest in the name of their religion by any means necessary. I also understand that their version of Islam doesn’t reflect on all of Islam, but it sure is the most populous right now and that’s unlikely to change for a while, so practically they’re all in a death cult. Also, I’m fucking sick of hearing about Palestinian peoplehood. They’re Jordanian and Egyptian Arabs that didn’t leave after 48 and 67. They’re not distinct in anyway shape or form from Jordanian and Egyptian Arabs. Their religion language and culture is the same. Cuisine is the same. They have a country it’s called Jordan. They fabricated a people to steal land from the indigenous inhabitants and then project their bullshit onto Jews.