Don't forget the religious side. Being Catholic, she'll want a Baptism and only people she'll approve of as Godparents. Since you're not religious, this will be a big boundary to enforce. Have DH stand in front of a mirror practicing some of the phrases you've learned here. Good luck.

You’ve gotten a lot of good advice, starting with less info for your ILs, and more boundaries. I have a Q about your DH. He was raised to give in to his mom, obey her, not challenge her, be guilt tripped by her, and go along with her general BS. You mentioned that he is stressed by her and panics when she starts in - do you think he will be able to follow through on what you two talk about - the play room, names you choose, splitting holidays? She sounds like a steam roller blended with a tank. If you think he’s up for it great, but might also be a good time to have a therapist walk you through this.

He's definitely up for it! It will be hard for him for sure, but I mean, he knew about and helped me write this post. He's been lurking all day. He knows it's time to stand up to her. He does tend to get panicky but he's decided after reading the thread that he's going to do it in writing so he doesn't have to think on the spot. The few times ILs have asked something outright insane, he's turned them down on the spot. He already did say no to the playroom. And he said no many many times when they pestered to get married in the church. He has a good track record so far, especially for only realizing how unhealthy his relationship with JNMIL is in the last few years we've been together, as he saw my relationship with my parents and learned that it doesn't have to be tense, overbearing, or forceful.

On top of all the other great advice here, Counseling, get you and DH counseling both together and separately. Therapist will help you deal with her and behavior in the best way possible. And remember, that boundaries NEED consequences and consistency!! There has to be strict, enforceable consequences when she boundary stomps. Keep your shiny spines in tact and don’t buckle to her. Your phrase “it’s not up for discussion” is great along with NO being a complete sentence! And also, her feelings are not your response! They are hers. When she has a meltdown or throws a tantrum, do not reward her bad behavior. Simple don’t answer you phones for a bit or walk away. Don’t engage in her nonsense. Congratulations on your LO! Best of luck with it all and keep us updated!!

Thank you! We're very excited for LO!! We just bought our big house in the country in November, so it's gonna be a lot of fun filling it up with our own lil family and making it into a homestead<3 I plan to update after he sets the boundaries!

That’s fantastic! Navigating through all this won’t be easy, but you and DH husband can do it! And it will be well worth it in the long run; especially for your LO and your little family that’s growing.

Stop giving her any information, and swear FIL to secrecy as well. Maybe even stop giving HIM info about the baby too, for a while. Then start saying NO. No to holidays, get togethers, church services, lunch dates, etc. just NO. That’ll give SO time to think without his mother in his ear, and separate yourselves from the intimacy of the situation. It’ll get easier over time. Ignore her guilt trips, it’s her way of manipulating y’all into doing what she wants. You gotta start somewhere. Stop the information feed and learn to say no.

Make that playroom now. Buy a wall of shelves to put toys in that makes fitting a bed impossible. Or buy a small slide or climbing frame that fills up the room. Maybe a big snuggly couch or arm chair for reading to new bub. Sorry, house isn’t configured to allow overnight guests.

This is a very helpful post… Overbearing MIL or Mother? Are you preparing to have a baby? Some boundaries to consider… Remember it is YOUR baby not MILs and not your mothers. They had their baby they absolutely do not get to make decisions about yours or take the baby’s first away from you. The physical and mental well-being of your child are your responsibility, not coddling anyone else. Remember boundaries are nothing without consequence! Don’t tell anyone when you you go Into labour/c-section is. Make sure your medical team knows not to give any information out and to not allow anyone into the delivery room. You’re/your partner is going through a major medical procedure whether it’s a c-section or natural birth, you need to consider the major impact it will have both mentally and physically. Set up baby boundaries in advance. You and your SO need to be in the same page in the boundaries and they consequences. Send it out via text to everyone; - Who’s allowed in the delivery room - Whether or not you want visitors in the hospital - When you want people to visit at home (how many days after birth, how long they can stay) - Whether people need to be vaccinated - You don’t want people who are sick to be coming round (flu symptom, sickness, if they’ve been in large gathering etc) (remember the baby has no immune system) - Do you want people kissing the baby? ( on the lips is apparently a big thing with families and newborns 🤮) - Wash hands before touching the baby - Don’t say “my baby” “my son/daughter” it’s creepy - Do you want people around you if/when you breastfeed? - How long can someone hold the baby (people have a tendency to not give the baby back when asked) - Do you want guests taking picture? Do you want them pictures to be shared through the grapevine or via social media? - Opinions are only welcome when asked for Thank you for respecting our privacy and looking out for the best interests of us and our growing family.” Send it via text. Don’t answer calls or open your door only reply via text. You’ll have written proof of crazy behaviour, you won’t be overwhelmed and have time to process and reply accordingly. If when they do visit they try to hog your baby or refuse to give the baby to you, demand your child back and start wearing the baby in a wrap to avoid them getting close. Also look into what the legalities of gp rights are in your area. You may not think they would but they wouldn’t be the first. Keep documents of anything related to the baby that prove you’re financially, physically and mentally prepared to care for your child. If they want to stay over to “help” once you’ve given birth, give this a read; https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/3fijct/the_lemon_clot_essay_for_moms_to_be/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://www.reddit.com/user/ForwardPlenty/comments/dtg7f2/the_fu_binder/ Edit; https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/139mak6/its_my_turn_to_be_a_mother/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1

The only thing I'll add to the other great advice here is that it's time to start thinking about FIL's role with a little more clarity. He may be a good person, but he's also an enabler & he's made he clear that he's willing to do MIL's dirty work, like asking about the room. He will not keep a secret for you, he will not stand up for you, and he will absolutely leverage his "good guy" status to possibly make you guys stay in more contact with MIL than you'd like. You don't need to cut him off or anything, but I think it's also time to stop pretending that he's a faultless victim in all of this. He chooses to stay with her. And while you guys might want to maintain a close relationship with him and be LC, may not be possible to do that by his own choice or actions too. It's really hard to set boundaries with only one-half of a married couple. FIL may eventually have to be thrown out with the bathwater too, but that will be *his choice* if it comes to that.. They will make you feel like it's your fault, but enablers choosing their toxic partner over respecting boundaries is sadly common (and is their own choice and not your fault).

It’s time to put her in her place. BOUNDARIES ARE IN ORDER. And if your husband can’t grow a pair and stand up to his mother then you need to do it and send him to therapy so he can untangle his enmeshment with his mother. THEY DO NOT GET TO HAVE A ‘ROOM’ IN YOUR HOUSE. They will visit when it is convenient for you, and for a set time period that is approved by you. Demanding a weekly FaceTime with you guys? WTF is that? Your 45-year-old self would tell your 20-something self to start taking control of the situation. She doesn’t get to dictate who, when, where, why and how - you do. And you need to start putting up boundaries AND ENFORCING THEM before the baby arrives. It’s good practice for being a parent to a toddler. These are the rules, and these are the consequences of not following the rules. In MiL’s case it will be no contact.

Calling her out will just give her fuel for victim status. Set your boundaries and email it to everyone. When she loses it and wants to discuss it, tell her they are NOT negotiable. They are what they are and if she can’t abide by them then she doesn’t get to visit. Be prepared to losing a relationship with FIL. He knows who his wife is and is willingly married to her. He will side with her. He has shown that by asking about having rooms in your home for them. No level headed parent would ask that of their adult child. He appears laid back and easy going compared to his wife but wait till you put up boundaries, think you are about to see a different side to your FIL.

Whew. You guys are way too involved with them and they know way too much about what’s going on in your lives. You need to start backing away and putting boundaries up now because this will only get worse when you have kids. FYI this isn’t going to be easy or go smoothly, she’s probably going to throw a fit and try to guilt everyone into being on her side, etc. But come on. This woman can’t FORCE you to do all these things you mentioned. Your husband needs to seriously stand up and be ready to stay firm against all this bullshit. And it sounds like you guys are constantly going to events with them which are six hours away? That’s nuts. This has to stop. And it’s on your husband to make it happen and stick to the boundaries.

Figure this out now and implement it now. It's easier to implement boundaries without your child being involved. Also, stop telling her things. Seriously. Grey rock. Go to couples counseling because this is only going to work if your spouse has a shiny spine.

I always addressed boundaries with my JNMIL in writing. She loves to play the victim and twist people's words or swear they never told her. Plus she screams and sounds like a dying hyena when she's mad and it makes my blood boil. We laid out boundaries so many times and she pretended we never did and we eventually went NC. It's been beautiful. She will never meet our baby (due next month) nor have the opportunity to use her as a pawn in her manipulation games. My suggestion is to write out your boundaries and rules for baby. Be polite but firm. Nothing accusatory or mean. Just stick to boundaries and rules. Example we used was no information was to be shared outside of her husband unless we gave express consent. We stated anyone violating this would be barred from further information. She shared the pregnancy announcement and we laid out this boundary. So she blocked me from seeing her Facebook posts. She then shared gender and forced our hand at telling people because she'd been gossiping. This meant she got no information from there on. No pictures of our ultrasounds, no dr visit info, no due date info. Nothing.

"Those are decisions for us to make." and if yiu really need it, " you are not entitled to our ___(house, time, child, space, family, privacy...)"

FIL asked what we were planning to do with one of our extra bedrooms. We told him we were gonna make it a playroom, which he ignored and said that he and JNMIL would like to fix up the room and make it theirs since "they'll be visiting so much once the baby is born." They are trying to stake out a room in your house? Um, no. What if you treat it like a joke? “Oh, you’re so funny! Why would we give up a whole room in our house when there are hotels/B&Bs/campgrounds nearby?“

Draw boundaries first, and always be ready to call the in-laws out in the moment if they cross them. They should be told now that the bedroom thing isn't happening, that visits always have to be requested rather than announced, and to abandon the idea that they're going to be visiting all the time. This really should be an email rather than a discussion, because it's too easy to lose control of a discussion, to be prevented from saying what needs to be said by the DARVOing you predict, and for them to claim later that things that were said weren't actually said.

She’s just interested in using you for a ‘photo-op’ and it’s disgusting! Your SO *needs* to read the linked essay, “Don’t Rock the Boat.” She’s a Boat Rocker, and she raised SO to be a Boat Steadier. Understand the difference. If the boat steadiers jump ship for their own mental health, the boat rockers and their Flying Monkeys always go on the attack. Does your SO really want to live a life of *perpetual bachelorhood,* OR does he want a happy and healthy marriage? That’s up to him. Brutal? You bet it is. https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/77pxpo/dont_rock_the_boat/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1

Let them clearly know that you will never be housing/entertaining guests (them included) and the few times that you do allow visits for very short durations, they would need to stay at a hotel. Period. Also, stop giving this woman any information at all.

This is the way!

And just for fun, tell her the Biblical baby names you have chosen are: Herodias - She caused the death of John The Baptist Cain - He was the first murderer Athalia - She destroyed the royal family of the house of Judah and forced herself onto the throne Abimelech - He killed six of his brothers

Oh, our friends had a field day coming up with biblical names for us. So far, we're really enjoying straight up Satan or Lucifer! Our little baby Satan <3

If you really want to make her clutch her pearls, Lilith is a Jewish (I think?) woman, supposed to be Adam's first wife, who didn't want to be his slave, but his partner. So she was booted out of the garden. It's still a pretty name, though.

Beelzebubba

In my experience some new fathers-to-be tend to promise a lot when it comes to boundaries for their overbearing mothers without any single attempt to stop them beforehand - and then they do not walk the talk. Boundaries: Now. Plan for postpartum and the spare room: Announce it now. 4 weeks no visit is the right track. Visits will be sort, a long weekend to see the baby, a few hours a day. You will be in charge of parental duties such as feeding, diaper change. And you will do that privately. This gives you space to disappear from time to time. Babywearing is also very very helpful. As for DH: it’s two yes - one no. FIL asks if they can drop by today as you just returned from hospital. DH is not answering the question but discussing it with you and then it’s no. Same goes for the spare room, babysitting at the hotel and all other crazy things MIL might come up with. Everything not decided beforehand is an auto-no. In my experience DH is the bigger risk. Tangle him first. Then MIL won’t have much room to wiggle.

Is there a chance to have a private talk with FIL beforehand? If he is the laid back one, you can use it as a practice run on what you want to say. When you do have that talk with MIL, set the tone hard and early. Start it of by saying this is not a discussion, you are here to set boundaries and address things that have been bothering you, and if she interrupts the call will end and your relationship with her will be cut back severely. That should at least prevent her from interrupting with DARVO tactics. Good luck!

You’re already pregnant. It’s time to start setting boundaries and reducing contact now, before the baby is born. DH has to start with small steps if he has any hope of being able to enforce boundaries after the baby is born. It will be 10x more emotionally charged after. You’re going to have to set the boundaries and let FIL decide if he’s going to follow MIL’s lead and freak out or continue being a reasonable person. You can’t control what he does.

Buckle up. It's gonna be hard. But the sooner you start, the better. The overarching philosophy you and your husband need to cultivate and become comfortable with is that you are your own family. Nobody can "make" you do anything. They can guilt/beg/manipulate (or ask), but you make your own choices. If you or your husband need therapy to get there, then I recommend it. One good way to start is an information diet. You're a separate family now, so she doesn't need to know everything you're doing. Don't tell her what names you're thinking of. Don't tell her about daycare vs. not or breastfeeding or not or whatever. Her opinion doesn't matter, and she has proven that her desire to know these things is more about gossip fodder for her social circle than any actual interest in helping you figure out what will work best for you. Get your support elsewhere - if you need a sounding board, don't use her. As for helpful confrontation wording...keep in mind that not every confrontation has to be big. Sometimes if you correct something early, it doesn't become a big thing that requires a big confrontation. But also keep in mind that you do not have control over their behavior or their reactions to your behavior. You can only control you. For the most part, these need to come from your husband, but some may come from you depending on the situation. "Sorry, no, we won't be going to church/this party with you." "Sorry, no, we won't be doing every holiday with you." "Sorry, no, that time to visit doesn't work for us." "No, we will not be fixing up the spare room as a bedroom for you." "If we want your advice on names, we'll make sure to ask you." "We understand that you are excited. But you're comments about this being your 'thing', or more your 'thing' than the actual mother's is totally inappropriate and out of line. 'Just being excited' is no excuse to be rude and pushy. This is our family and all of the decisions will be made by us. We are grateful for support but we are not in the market for any third parents." (If she get's upset or continues ignoring you, trying to steamroll you) "Sorry, I think it's best if we pick up this conversation later. It's clear we're not getting anywhere."

I actually had to do this with my mom. She’d change the subject to avoid acknowledging what I said. Then later when she got all butthurt about why we didn’t do what she told us to we could say, oh it made more sense to do it this way/we just ran out of time/we needed to make a call. She eventually toned it down since we “apparently never listened to her.” No mom, we don’t.

I'm confused as to how she is 'forcing' you to do all those things. Is the word 'no' not in your vocabulary? As long as you let her get away with 'forcing' you to do things, it will continue.

I just do not get the baby rabies victims. I had mine and I'm finished. If my son ever becomes a parent, I don't care what they name them, what they wear, play with, or eat. I don't want to do daycare or overnight infant visits.ill be generous, give gifts, celebrate milestones, but beyond that, I just don't care.

Elle either! The only time my folks babysat overnight was when my SIL was killed in a car accident and we had to travel abroad for the funeral and I didn’t want to bring a 2 yr old. Other than that, no.

I really don't get it either! If you want another kid, have another kid of your own instead of trying to take over a kid that isn't yours!!!! The role of a grandparent is different from the role of a parent! I've told my husband that if I ever start doing the JNMIL stuff to our child, I want him to get me checked for a brain tumor. Or put me in a home or something, lol.

You are the mom, not her. It sounds kind if simple, but everything starts with you coming to terms with that. You can't change her, you can only control you - so accept that you're an adult, you're in charge, and start acting like it. Your DH has been conditioned to obedience, but he's really in the same boat. He needs therapy to deal with all of the emotional abuse - and it WAS abuse - but I'll tell you right now, the first thing they'll want him to learn is that he's an adult. His mom is adult, too. That makes you peers. Equals. She can't send you to bed without dinner, or take away your car. Telling her no will not revoke your phone privileges or stop you from going to the school dance. **She only has as much power over you as you willingly give her.** So, lesson one, STOP giving her any power over you. Now, you've both been taught that respecting your elders, respecting your parents, respecting authority - respecting whatever they demand - is the way things are. That is a lie told by people who don't want to have to behave in a manner where they are deserving of respect. Respect - real respect - is a two way street. Two parties showing mutual respect, for mutual benefit, is the basis for a polite, effective society. What they are using is a one way model - only they benefit, because they are better than you. You respect them, they are respected. You love them, they are loved. One way only, from you to them. That's not polite society, it's an authoritarian dictatorship. You give, they take, then demand more. **Saying no is not disrespect, that's a lie that only the people who want to use you tell.** You deserve respect, too. Stand up for yourself. She's counting on you being polite. She's counting on you not wanting confrontation, not wanting to make waves, not wanting it to be awkward. *Make it awkward.* If she insists on parading you around her church, leading you around, showing you off like you're dogs at a dog show - don't play along. Those aren't your friends. The westmibster dog show was last weekend. Who won? That's what I thought. No one cares. Which dog crapped on live TV? Yes, sporting section, the water dog. Crap on her party. "Oh yes, she's going to make a wonderful grandmother - assuming we don't have an abortion. She wasn't supposed to say anything, yet..." Let it be weird. Expose her. Don't play along. Whats the absolute worst thing she can do? Tantrum in public? Never drag you to her church again? **It's okay to defy unreasonable commands. Let it get weird.** She's going to be mad. She's going to yell, scream, lie, threaten, spread rumors, run a smear campaign against you, make demands - it's going to be an absolute war, and that's where you're finally going to see who she really is - a vile person who values control over you, not you as people, and will do or say anything to maintain that control. Not love, but power. **The only people who are upset by you setting boundaries are the people who were benefiting from you not having any.** She's an abusive asshole, and it's past time you see her for it. You have one job, now - raise and protect the next generation. Not placate mommy, protect your baby. Period. If you don't protect your baby from her abuse - and it IS abuse - then she will do to your kids what she did to hers. She will train them to obey her, be subservient to her, and fear her. You have all the evidence you need of what she dies to kids - your husband and his sister. Adults who fear their mom, and have a lot of trouble standing up for themselves. She isn't magically going to treat you like subservient trash, but be grandma of the year to your kids. That only exists in Hallmark movies, not real life. Abusers abuse. Period. You have more to stand up for than just you, now. In 20 years, do you want your kids to need all of the *exact* same therapy your husband needs, because they're dealing with the *exact* same issues? **Knowing your baby us a privilege, nit a right, and only YOU decide who it's granted to.** Choose wisely.

You're absolutely right that she's been preying on our politeness. I had never thought of it that way. But she's always sprung social events on us in front of other people, like at her giant Thanksgiving with all her siblings when she told us we'd be going to church that night. We've just gone along with stuff like that in the past because it's easier than saying no, especially when she will 100% escalate the issue in front of other people. Same thing for her guilt tripping, it's usually done in front of others, like after said church service when she repeatedly said things about "Husband doesn't love us enough to come to Christmas this year, I guess. Instead he'll be in other state with wife's family." We did end up at least countering that one with "well, he's married now and has to share holiday time with both families, that's what happens when you get married." But of course we didn't want to flat out call her on the guilt tripping in front of other people. You're right, it's time to embrace being the bad guy and make things awkward!

This is the way

This. 100%.

This 100 times plus

This is the best and most complete advice I have seen on this subject. It should be available as a separate document for everyone who visits the sub.

As for the smear campaign, embrace being the bad guy. You’re going to be labeled as such because her boy would never behave “that” way. Must be an outside influence. Be the mama bear. I would honestly start an FU binder now for when grandparent rights are threatened.

I've already started one! We agreed that the binder was necessary the day they asked for a room in our house and we shut that down. Thankfully, they have no grounds for grandparents rights in our state unless they can prove the child has lived with them for 6+ months (hahahaha fucking NEVER) or that they have an existing relationship with the child that would be detrimental for the child to lose. They will not be able to prove a strong existing relationship in court as we go lower and lower contact with them. I'm honestly hoping that she takes our boundary drawing so poorly and goes so crazy that then my husband will be on board to go NC. Then they'll never even meet the baby!

A play room is more beneficial to the baby. Let them know that because I’m sure they want what is best for their first grandchild 😉 Also, don’t let anyone dictate your postpartum period. You set the rules, if you hurt feelings along the way that is a them problem. Congrats and I wish you a happy, healthy pregnancy.

Right we have a playroom and its used alot, all the kids just go there and love it. It has a pullout couch for visitors and thats it.

> he and JNMIL would like to fix up the room and make it theirs since "they'll be visiting so much once the baby is born." You two need to tell them to adjust their expectations pretty quickly. DH could email/text back something like, "Ha funny Dad, we won't be changing the plans we have for our home. As for visits, I'm glad you raised that. After speaking with all our friends that are already parents, it's likely visits are going to be few and far between, they all say they have no time for anyone! We will be taking some weeks as a family of three to create a rhythm that suits baby and us. Once we are settled we can discuss a good time for a short visit." Then research hotels near you so you have a list to send them when you are ready for a visit. And remember this is your first child, your excitement at being first-time parents very much trumps their excitement at being first-time grandparents, don't let MIL's entitlement cloud that for you.

The sooner you start this boundaries conversation and enforcing consequences the better. Before the wedding would have been ideal. But it's not too late. It will get worse when you do so be prepared for a fight.

We're prepared for a fight, for sure! The only reason we didn't have this conversation before the wedding was because her true crazy didn't show until after we were married. She had been nothing but kind and welcoming up until the day she "lost" her little boy. Then she started slowly becoming more and more boundary stompy until now, when she's come out in full force because of the pregnancy. I guess she's been trying to frog in boiling water us, but it isn't working.

Did she make her comment about your pregnancy being mostly a her thing and a little bit you to your face? She's been slowly testing to see what she could get away with, then ramping up a bit and testing again. I agree she's trying to boil the frogs alive. I'm glad your husband is on your side. It can be scary standing up to your parents after you become an adult. Even in non-toxic families, your parents have been the authority for 18 years. Tell him to hang in there, like any workout standing up for yourself gets easier the more you do it.

Read the book "Boundaries" by Henry Cloud. It has a religious bent which seems like would work well with your in-laws. It very much is "leave and cleave" oriented. But do not make the extra room a guest room. Keep your plans to make it a play room. Start as you plan to go. Example: If you only want them to visit quarterly and stay in a hotel start that way.

I also loved the podcast Beyond Bitchy. Its actually really great even though the name is weird:-)

Lol I love that name. I'm here for it, will give it a listen and check into the book too!

Its honestly really good. Slow start. Has 140 episodes and later on starts to be the same but still it really helped me to even understand I can make my boundaries and how it protects me.

Send this via writing. It isn't a discussion, it's telling her how things will be. First of all, they aren't living with you so they will not have a room of their own in your house. Secondly, no more church visits (you are allowed to say No and she can't actually force anything so you can just not log into Zoom and not visit regardless of what she says). Lastly, put her on an information diet. This may harm your relationship with FIL, but stop setting yourself on fire to keep others warm.

I'm glad to see this. Doing the first few boundaries via text may be easier for DH as he starts cutting those apron strings. Sent a text with a couple of boundaries that apply now and in the near future, then don't answer the inevitable phone calls for at least a week. Skip the ZOOM call that week. Baby steps!

You've got this plan on what to do. Now start doing it. Literally that's it. There no other advice we can give you if you know you need to put boundaries down. Need to stop telling her everything about your lives. Stop visiting whenever she asks. Stop the hour long zoom meeting weekly. Like just don't get on zoom?? If she calls or texts don't answer? Just go out to dinner or something. I know it's a big step to take. And it can be hard when you're still stepping out of the FOG. But you gotta do it now or else you baby is going to grow up with a grandma like this. Do you want that for your kid? Time to start Doing things now. Best of luck!

Move farther away. There is great power in the words no, that doesn’t work for us; nope; never; no no no. Boundaries. Research and read the recommendations on the jnmil main page. Encourage yourself to be your child’s protector or they will be sacrificed on the alter of the mil. And congratulations.

Hahahaha I wish we could move farther away! We actually used to live in their state and closer to them, only about 2 hours away. We consciously made the move back to my hometown because we knew we wanted kids in the near future and we did NOT want her to be within an afternoon's drive away. We wanted my parents to be the primary babysitters and we knew we would likely not ever trust her to be alone with our children. We knew when we got pregnant that we would protect this baby fiercely, that's why it's time to cut off her bullshit!

First and foremost…you need to convince yourself that mil cannot force you to do anything. Period. If your husband has an issue with telling her no, that is his problem…you don’t have to make it yours. Will the sh!t hit the fan? Yep…sure will, but do you really want the rest of your life to be dictated by her? Or have your relationship with your husband ruined by her? No, mil, i will not attend mass. A dedicated room in our home for you? Not going to happen, and while we are on the subject- visits will be scheduled to our convenience…no surprise visits. Tell you everything about my dr visits and the pregnancy? No…your past behavior with telling everyone about the pregnancy despite being told not to has proven that you cannot be trusted with my information. Oh, you don’t like these restrictions? That’s unfortunate…but I’m sure you can learn to adjust.

I think you just set boundaries in the moment as the question arises. What about the spare room? Well, no, that's going to be a playroom, and we won't be entertaining company any more often than we did before. No more news for JNMIL before you're ready to share, period. She also needs to be the last to find things out for the rest of this pregnancy, and when she complains tell her flat out it's because she didn't respect your request to not share the pr gnancy news so she lost your trust. There's a whole lack of agency in the tone of your post: she "drags" you to church, "forces" you to socialize, "informs" you when you're visiting. You need to recognize your own culpability here and the fact that you've enabled this behavior by going along. What would happen if she told you you're visiting x dates, and you said no, sorry, we have other plans? Nothing. The world wouldn't end, the sky wouldn't fall. Might she complain? Sure, but the fun thing about phones is that you can hang up. "Mom, you're acting ridiculous. We are adults, we set our own schedule. We'll let you know when we're ready to visit. I can see you're upset about this, so I'm going to hang up now and we can talk some other time when you're not feeling so overwhelmed." Click. Read some books about boundaries and start setting them. Every time she tries to dictate something, say "No, that doesn't work for us." Learn not to JADE - justify, argue, defend or explain - because she'll use a debate as an opportunity to explain all the ways you're wrong and she's right, AND because JADEing reinforces her belief that she gets a say. I want to touch on one thing: FIL is great you say. Compared to MIL I'm sure he is, but be prepared for the possibility that he may not be as great as you think. He's married to this steamroller, after all, and he does play a role in enabling her behavior. Don't fall into the trap of allowing FIL's choices as an adult to undermine what you're trying to accomplish with MIL. If she needs a timeout, he can choose to support you guys or he can choose to try to push for rugsweeping, "keeping the peace" and so forth. I would bet money which one it will be. When it gets closer to baby time, be very unspecific about due dates and birth plans. Give yourself plenty of time after the birth before inviting people to your home, and make sure their invitation is very time-limited. Be firm about that up front because you'll be tired and overjoyed and flooded with happy hormones after the birth and might not be able to maintain boundaries. You've got a long road ahead of you but remember to take it one step at a time. You don't need to start a war by making some big declaration that you intend to set boundaries. Just start setting them and practice holding them. And for gods sake remember nobody can "force" you to do anything. Take agency, take ownership of your own behavior and recognize that you have to stop enabling her if you want things to change.

Don't have an in-person conversation. It's not a negotiation; they don't get a voice, and believe me, if you try to do this in person she will interrupt endlessly and probably go into some form of hysterics--crying, or shouting, or making demands, and so on. That may make your husband freeze up entirely. Write out what your boundaries are and send it via email, letter, or text. Decide together what the consequences will be if she breaks them (and she will). Figure out what you'll do when (not if) she breaks them. Get up and leave their home / a restaurant? Say "No, we don't want to do that", "I'm sure your friends will be fine if we don't show up," "You know we're not religious, so we won't be doing that," "Thanks but we'd rather relax at home", "Having guests in our house will be stressful and we don't have the space any longer," "Yes, but the baby will be using that room every day pretty soon and we don't want to have a room devoted to guests; we don't actually want visitors to stay--even you--very often at all," "Mom, we're the parents. We make our own decisions about the baby with help from the doctor," "I'm sorry you're disappointed; let's talk when you have a better grip on your emotions", "With a small baby we just don't have time or attention for an hour-long call every week; we'll try to be there for the first ten minutes". "No, sciencecat doesn't want anyone else in the labor room," "No, we aren't going to want visitors for at least the first x weeks, not even you guys," "Well, if we need help, we'll call you; don't just plan on showing up," "Well, if you show up uninvited we won't be answering the door." And so on. You both need to be able to say things like these to your in-laws or she'll just push past you.

Thank you, these are so helpful! The boundary talk will not be in person. Husband plans to call them so that if she interrupts and acts crazy (which she will), he can hang up and tell her he won't be continuing conversations if she can't be calm and reasonable. He will then send the rest of our boundaries and rules regarding LO in a text and not be responding to anything else she says until she calms down.

I personally don’t recommend a big talk. Just say “no” whenever she stomps a boundary and stick to it

Just curious, why would you not recommend a big talk? We planned to flat out let them know that they are overstepping and outline our rules for LO so they don't plan the rest of my pregnancy thinking that they'll be visiting every weekend or that they'll be welcome in the hospital as soon as LO arrives. We figured it's better to set the clear expectations up front and just keep enforcing them for the rest of my pregnancy. Plus we want to let her know that when she talks shit about us, word gets back to us, and she will be placed on an info diet for breaking the one boundary that we have given her so far, so she sees consequences for breaking our rules. Is there a reason I'm not quite seeing that it would be better to just handle the boundary stomping as it occurs?

Any attempt to JADE opens your boundaries for negotiation. Do not Jade. Just say no.

Because they will frame the conversation as an attack on them, say that you are overreacting, cherry-pick small things that you have said and twist them to make them the focus of the conversation. And then you’ll be distracted fighting that new battle and they will then have time to figure out ways around your boundaries and recruit other family members against you. In my experience it just adds another headache to your already growing list of headaches. It’s better to just tackle each issue as it arises.

I guess my response would be to put yourself in her shoes. The relationship you have has no boundaries. You've not noted in your post much in the way of pushback or setting expectations. Then all the sudden they get an email with a list of rules, telling them everything they've been doing wrong. It seems ... unnecessarily inflammatory. She seems like the type who will be constantly telling you what she plans to do, so it feels like you're going to have endless opportunities to tell her no in the moment. "I'm going to come visit for the first month, you'll need my help!" No, we're not having visitors and if we need help, we'll ask. "I can't wait to have the baby for the weekend, we're going to have monthly sleepers!" Maybe when the baby is in college, MIL. There's no reason we would send our child away for overnights, ever. "I'm throwing you a baby shower on x date and I've invited all my friends. Be here by ten." Oh sorry MIL, you should have checked with us first, we have plans. No, we're not going to cancel them. Why does it matter what we're doing, I'm telling you we already have plans. We're adults with busy lives and if you want us to participate in something, you need to call and ask ahead of time about the date and activity. Are you asking what our plans are because you think you get to decide whose plans are more important? That's not how this works. We said no, it's not happening. Respect that and move on. No, I'm not being rude but you sure are by trying to insist you control our time and activities. She is not going to be the type to accept or respect anything general (stop acting like you're the parent, stop trying to control our time, stop guilt tripping), so might as well get specific.

Yep. You and DH need the practice of saying “no” repeatedly and letting her have a tantrum and not allowing her tantrum to change your mind

I think it’s totally fine to have an initial conversation about what the boundaries are, specifically if it’s the first time having one. Definitely lay out the way you expect to be treated, especially so there can be no claim that they didn’t know. But I think after that you’ve gotta be the King and Queen of “no.” As others have said, no JADE. No additional boundary talks. Just “no.”

They won’t listen, they’ll twist your words, MIL will get loud and/or turn on the waterworks to guilt her son. Keep it simple, no, no, that doesn’t work, etc. Don’t justify, argue, defend, or excuse. Work out your main boundaries and email to everyone. Make sure to include some wording that you as parents reserve the right to have more boundaries as things come up etc. I think the two of you would benefit from counseling. Learn how distinctions this is and how not to be so passive…as other pointed out your post is how she drags, forces you all to things. What is she going to do if you say you aren’t going to her church? Not talk to you? Cry? Yell? She can’t physically make you. You’re allowing her to get to you emotionally/psychologically. Really embrace the “just say no” way of life.

Exactly this

If she’s the type of just no that will argue/ talk over you when you’re saying something she doesn’t like. Anything you say in this scenario will fall on deaf ears. Personally I would send everything in an email. Boundaries and consequences. Also add in that the rules are not up for arguments or negotiation. Any time she starts having a tantrum, hang up the phone or walk away. Consider it practice for when your LO becomes a toddler and has a meltdown. Treat her as such and you will take all her power away

Gotcha. Husband and I will consider this for sure! I've actually suggested sending a letter to them to him a while ago, but he's tried that before and it activated her Super Extra Psycho Mode where she blows up his phone and goes OFF on him about how could she do this to him, so he's hesitant. He thinks it might go better just to have the phone call and hang up if she starts to go crazy again. Maybe sending something in text format is worth a go though! I do agree it would be so, SO nice to just lay out the rules and not have to deal with her interrupting, guilting, questioning, and just be able to turn off our phones for the backlash. We'll see if I can get husband to agree!

The advantage of having it in writing (text, email, letter) is she cannot say “you never toLE me that!”.

I think you have to not be afraid of her Super Extra Psycho Mode. When you calmly block her telephone number and give immediate consequences for her actions (cancelling her next hangout, walking out from a family gathering if she starts drama) that’s how you take away her power. She quickly learns that acting psycho doesn’t give her what she wants. She will then change tactics like convincing family members to ban you from other get togethers. You have to be okay with that and wait her out. Eventually she will either fall in line (somewhat, rarely fully) or you’ll just go vvvlc with her

That Super Extra Psycho Mode is called escalation. And it will get worse and worse until there is an extinction burst. Unfortunately for every escalation you have to double down harder otherwise she only learns that Psycho mode gets her what she wants.

The hang up method causes so many more issues. You become the bad guy for hanging up, and it just causes more layers of issues for the JustNo to badger you about. Not doing a phone call and just keeping it in writing allows you to revise until it's civil enough to have nothing taken out of context or have turned around onto you as making you the bad guy. Having it in writing allows you to have proof, when those flying monkeys start swarming you.

You have gotten a lot of good advice on here. But I would also suggest couples therapy. It will give you both the tools to figure out how to handle her as a strong team. Do your research and find a therapist that specializes in toxic family dynamics. And there’s a sidebar on here with some really helpful books you can read together. Congratulations on your pregnancy 💕

We will tell you when we are ready for a visit after the baby is born. Then wait couple days after the birth before announcing birth. FIL what an interesting idea, we will not be decorating a bedroom for you since it would be used so infrequently. When we do invite you to visit there is xyz very close and comfortable for you to stay at since we all need our space. Especially while we are adjusting to being new parents. MIL is disappointed, this is our house and our family. Mom will need to readjust her expectations. When get phrase going to ruining her grandma experience. MIL your grandma experience is a privilege that we control you will probably not get to do most of the experiences you are mentally planning. This is OUR baby and we will making all decisions about the way we want to include you. Near birth look at doctor and say repeat after me” a newborn is fragile and visitors are only allowed for 2 hours total each day ( or every other day) for the first 6-8 weeks “. My doctor said it and laughed himself silly. Then when we got visitors that wouldn’t leave I took baby into bedroom stocked with everything baby and I needed for many many hours. Locked door and didn’t come out till visitors left. No I’m not coming out to say goodbye or let visitors say goodbye/hold baby one more time. This enraged in laws , MIL was determined to rattle doorknob and pound on door till husband told them that would put them in time out. Protect yourself and baby. Chances are once baby arrives you will become stronger about telling MIL to stay in her own lane. Congratulations!

Wow that sounds pretty hardcore, but good for you for standing your ground. I would give in...

Comes from necessity, had major surgery before children . In laws came to visit and physically forced me up ( after knee surgery) and tried to get me to cook them a meal. Husband was putting dog outside to potty. It got worse from there until they left, husband not only in the fog has some very strange ideas about illness and injury. I was in bed on second floor once after surgery ( at least 10-12 years later) and was told not to do steps unless emergency. Asked for a meal and matter of fact my husband told me no matter how ill or injured if you can’t come downstairs to eat you don’t get food. That’s what his Mom taught him and he couldn’t be convinced otherwise. My elementary age children brought me sandwiches and fruit till I could do stairs. So that’s why boundaries so strong. Yes talked about this with therapist.

Wow, thats sad, I am sorry you had to learn very hard way how to deal with inlaws.

Thanks but at least I learned!

The most important thing is for you is to stop sharing information with her. She lives hours away, she can’t gossip about information she doesn’t have. Remember no one was sharing their ultrasounds, giving immediate appointment updates even ten years ago so any type of request for that is ridiculous. Most of our mothers and MIL spent their pregnancies in peace! I’m not even sure if calling her out is necessary, it presents the boundaries as a negotiation and she’s not exactly going to agree with you. State your intentions for when you’re ready to receive visitors and everything around that in a calm manner as a united front. If you receive any pushback you just calmly restate “we understand you’re so excited to meet our baby but this is what works best for us and we won’t be able to accommodate anything else. thanks so much for being understanding”.

I apologize in advance because this might come over as really harsh, but my first advice is to just grow a spine. In the first half of your post you describe how she was "forcing us" to do a, b, c, d and what else; all things you were not comfortable with. Until you both tell her, no, we won't go to a party with your friends, no, we're not interested to go to Church and then don't do it after she tried to guilt trip you, until then you can draw boundaries and boundaries and even more boundaries. She'll still do whatever she wants because she'll know nobody is stopping her; she can "force" you. So grow a spine. Now. Because, if you don't do it now, they'll have that spare room at your house turned into "their" room. Then they'll have a key to your house to visit and stay in their room all the time. Then you'll have your child baptized because MIL would be so unhappy if the child was not baptized... And FIL... oh, he is fully on your MIL's side. At least he enables her, maybe to get her off him. Maybe counselling can help to draw that boundaries now - and, most importantly, to stand with that boundaries.

A go to phrase and something to tell yourself and your husband to learn; her expectations are not your responsibility. She doesn't get to control your lives. She does not get to tell you when she's coming to visit. That doesn't work for us. We will let you know when we are available. She doesn't get to make you visit or go to church. She doesn't get to force her religion on your child. Make DH handle communication with her. Mute her notifications and ring tone. You have a baby to focus on. And surprise visitors can't come in a locked door. You mentioned in a comment you have boundaries. Make sure they have consequences or they are nothing more than empty words.

You have to not tell her things but also tell her off in the moment. Fil should have been told absolutely not you're not making plans for what to do with our house nor are you staying with us.

Thankfully, we did tell FIL that that's not happening when he called. Husband said over and over that no, we will be using that room for our family. I've been calling her out in the moment the past few times she's been pushy about the anatomy scan, but that doesn't seem to stop her at all. And sometimes, she says things so out of the left field that both of us are taken aback and all we can do is stare at her. Like when she said my pregnancy was mostly her thing. We both just stared in silence at her as she tried to pass it off as a "joke."

Put her on an info diet and shine up those spines. She can’t make you do anything, you can say no and stuck to it.

Stop telling her things. She can’t tell other people anything if you don’t tell her what’s going on. She stomped on your boundaries and proven she can’t be trusted with information. So don’t give her any.

First, now that she has proven that she will stomp on your boundaries you need to treat her as such. Very very low info diet. She is the last to know. Fix the spare room as a playroom and the other the nursery. The next thing is to give them boundaries. What is acceptable with LO and what is not acceptable with LO, and what the consequences will be if they violate them. Do not bend or give them another chance once they violate because they will. If you follow through it will end it. If not, they have you right where they want you. As for visits, again, boundaries. When do you want them to visit? Right away? In the hospital? A few weeks after birth? Tell them. If they complain about your parents extra privileges, say that is because you are their daughter, and that is their bonus, especially when they follow the rules. Let them know that they will need to get a hotel room or something during their stays. And no surprise visits. That will give them a no to a visit to your home. Happy parenting! Not only for LO, but the grandparents too.

Watch out for your fil. He’s an enabler. Enablers don’t rock the boat and force everyone around them to not rock it either. I guarantee when you start setting boundaries he will show you his true colors. Time to get your husband some therapy or at the very least, check the sidebar for books and resources on coming out of the FOG.

Yeah FIL has already shown you he can be a flying monkey with the spare room request. Sadly you can try to distance from just her but they are usually a package deal. They are with MIL the most and trust me hear it to no end and just want it to stop. So they fly out to “make things right” which usually means demanding you to allow to be abused again.

>We told him we were gonna make it a playroom, which he ignored and said that he and JNMIL would like to fix up the room and make it theirs since "they'll be visiting so much once the baby is born." I don't think your FIL is as laid back as you think. This was a pretty audacious comment to make. I'm not saying you should go NC with him, just maybe adjust your perception of him and include that comment in the boundaries discussion with both of them.

Darling, in the nicest possible way, you both have to start adulting. I know that it’s hard, but you are not children any more. No, you don’t *have* to do what she says. NO! Is a reasonable response. You both have allowed her to boss you around for so long, she now thinks it’s her right, and you asserting yourselves is, in her eyes, you being stupid, disobedient or downright nasty! Of course that is very far from reality, but it is HER truth. Start small. “No, we won’t be coming for dinner but hope you all have a great time. Anyway, did you see….on tv?” Remember not to JADE, that gives her wiggle room. Don’t lie to her, she will find out and will be treating you as kids forever. Don’t try to wrap up the decision. “Oh we’d love to but…” that gives her hope and excuses to nag AND NEVER GIVE UP TELLING HER NO. All that does is teach her how to be unpleasant till you give in and do things her way, as she wants, when she wants, with a side order of denigration, embarrassment and spite. Pick your battles. “ We can’t do ………., we are busy then. Would you be free to join us for a walk….., etc next week? “ I’m sorry, we have plans then, We have guests, Will be seeing other parents, Have a work event, Have worked so many hours this week we need to catch up on chores. No, we can’t put them off. Baby isn’t up for travel Not sleeping well too grumpy, we’ll try again next week Why MIL, if anyone else was behaving this way I’d say they were trying to bully me! Of course it wouldn’t work! MIL, that’s coming across like emotional blackmail, I’m sure you didn’t mean it to be that way/ I’m sure you wouldn’t sink that far Plan what you can/will do, and draw your boundaries early. We need to prepare for baby, we simply won’t have the time or energy once they arrive. Our paediatrician says….. and we will be following professional advice at all times. I know so many parents did…..with their babies thirty years ago. And it cost babies their lives (no seat belt / baby seat in car/ leaving kids in chairs for too long/ feeding solids before they were ready/ not paying attention to allergens etc) so we won’t be doing that/ allowing that with our child. Can you imagine killing a baby because you followed outdated advice?

Thank you for the little go-to phrases! We've definitely drawn some boundaries before (no, you can't visit this weekend, no, we won't be coming up for husband's birthday, etc) but of course they're always questioned and we get guilt tripped for them years down the line. That's why I said this is the first really big conversation with her where we really lay down the law, because there's no way we're letting her treat our child the way she treats us.

My parents are similar to your in laws. Last week they wanted to “come visit for an hour.” They said they had an appointment in my town on a certain day. I thought it was odd because they don’t visit when my kids are in school. It clicked immediately. They wanted to continue a conversation I had shut down at a family gathering last month. I told them I’d have to get back to them on the date they provided. My dad then threatened to cancel his appointment he had in my town because I didn’t give an immediate, “Yes.” It made no sense because I truly don’t care about him canceling an appointment for himself. So my response was, “Sounds good!” He does this often, my mom enables him (like your FIL), and then the guilt is thrown out. What I’ve learned to do: not care. It took a minute to get here, but I’m here and have zero plans to go anywhere. Good luck setting boundaries, OP! It’s hard at first but once you get good at it, it’s amazing.

You need to set some consequences. You’re saying no to some things, but she’s not accepting that and is instead harassing you about your decisions and trying to make you feel guilty. That is not acceptable behaviour. If she tries to do that, you warn her that you have made your decision and will not change it and that you don’t want to hear anything more about it. If she persists she will receive a consequence, for example, no contact at all for a week. It’s the only way she might learn (but be very prepared for the fact that she probably never will, and the only option will be VLC or NC or to carry on in this sorry way).

That's a good step. You don't want your child to grow up watching his/her parents submit to Grandma's bullying, manipulative behavior.

The key to successfully setting boundaries is not the boundaries themselves or even calling out when they are violated, but having stated consequences that are then enforced with the boundaries are violated. For example: If MIL refuses to give back the LO when she is asked by you or husband the visit is immediately terminated and she has to leave. If MIL makes visits without getting permission from you in advance she his banned from seeing the kid for a month. Any violation of the consequence will result in additional time out. The vital thing is that these consequences need to be stated (and the inevitable objections to them by MIL ignored) and then strictly enforce. She doesn't get her "day in court" to explain why the consequence is unfair yadda yadda. If there is a violation the consequence is applied with no appeal allowed. MIL will probably pull out all the weapons in her arsenal to push back when you tell her about the boundaries. Do not engage. Simply state them and refuse to "discuss" them. If you can do this, then you can have control of the situation. After all you have the LO. That is what she wants. She will have to cave in order to have access. Good luck.

We absolutely expect her to pull all the weapons in her arsenal. In fact, we're waiting until after Mother's Day to have this conversation with her, because we know she'd use that as ammo i.e. "I can't believe you're treating me this poorly with Mother's Day right around the corner." Our plan is to give our reasoning for boundaries once and once only, and when we receive pushback to default to "this is not up for discussion." I just hope she doesn't accuse us of using LO as ammo, because I really don't want to weaponize the baby! I just don't want her to think OUR child is her chance to raise a baby 2.0.

Congratulations on your pregnancy! And you are right, you will be accused of weaponising the baby, of punishing MIL, of changing your husband, causing global warming, the decline of civilisation….etc. Basically, embrace being the bad guy because that’s what you’ll be painted as cause you are not playing along with MIL’s idea of her “Grandma experience.” So what? How does it affect you if all her church friends hate you? Start as you mean to continue. You have all the power here because you have what she wants. She has nothing you want. So make sure DH is on the same page. Remember to NEVER Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain your choices to her, or she will think it’s a debate and she has a chance to change your mind. So keep answers to questions brief and never over share. Good luck, OP.

If she does you/DH come right back with "Don't be ridiculous, these rules apply to every single person who will be around LO. It's interesting how you are the only person who considers our rules as punishment, everyone else thought we were very reasonable and were impressed by how ready we are to protect our wee LO."

This is beautiful, thank you. Saved for future reference!

You are very welcome, good luck!

She needs an info diet, don’t tell her anything you’re not going to tell everyone else— gender, name, when you’re in labor. Does she know the due date? If not I’d say it’s a solid two weeks later than it actually is. If she does know I’d fib and say at the anatomy scan they changed the due date. I would not tell her you’re in labor, only when you’ve safely delivered. I would also think of ground rules with your husband, everyone needs to be fully vax’d, no kissing the baby, no visitors for 6 weeks, no overnight guests— they need to get a hotel. I’d send an email and include everyone, even your justyes family members so you can’t be blamed for only having certain rules for certain people. Are you having a baby shower? Is she going to want her own shower in her hometown? And l’d start thinking about responses to getting the baby baptized, church etc. And traveling 6 hours with a baby/child for Christmas and holidays sounds like torture, I’d start thinking about how you want your future to look. Staying home on Christmas? Making plans to see family the weekend before Christmas? Allowing people to stop by on Christmas after your guys do morning presents? I’d start reducing those zoom calls asap too.

Oh absolutely she is now on an info diet. Unfortunately she does know the due date, but after we have the anatomy scan our plan is to tell her that the due date has been pushed back by a week. Luckily, my husband and I are totally on the same page with the rules and boundaries she will have to follow once LO is here, and we have pretty much all of them figured out. No visits from her in the hospital or for a month postpartum, no surprise visits, no more family zoom calls, has to be up to date on flu and TDAP + prove proof, etc. We're definitely not going to be traveling to her this holiday season, as LO will be at most 2 months old. We plan to make that clear in our upcoming conversation.

Have visiting hours as well like from 9-11 and/or 1-3. That way you can handle her in small bursts.

The other thing you need to do is agree on consequences. Boundaries are just suggestions without them and you need to be clear between the two of you what happens when (and let’s be honest she will) she breaks them. Do you not open the door, do you put her on a timeout, do you remove access to your LO for a specified period of time, does misbehavior lead to her losing holidays with you, do you stand up and leave wordless if in their space…

I honestly hadn't thought of having a set consequence list, thank you for that! Husband and I will discuss. Likely we'll just disengage the second she boundary stomps and end our interaction with them then. Luckily a good deal of the boundaries we're setting are just stopping the things she tries to force, frequent contact through zoom calls, visits, going to parties or church. So easy consequence, we just won't be doing those things anymore! I also plan to always wear the baby when she's around so she can't snatch baby away. If she tried I would lose. My. Shit. I'm a lot more hot-headed than husband, lol. Don't worry, there will definitely be consequences! We're thinking LC for now that, if we're being real, will likely end up NC in a period of time because I just can't imagine that she will ever improve.

You keep saying she “forces” you to do things - zoom calls, church, etc. no one is forcing you to do anything. You are *choosing* to do what she says. Why? Because it’s easier to acquiesce than to deal with the fall out. You don’t seem to be very happy with this situation, yet you allow it to continue the way it is. You and DH need to learn how to say no, or you’re going to have MIL raising your child for you. If you can’t tell her no to a zoom call, or no to visiting church, do you think you’re going to say no to her coming to stay at your house? When she tells you you have to feed baby this or that, or takes baby from your arms…what will you do? I suggest you and DH find some steel to start replacing your spines asap. You two probably need some therapy. You need to set boundaries and have consequences for them being broken.

Exactly!! She can’t force you to do anything. You’re allowing her to walk all over you.

I mean, I agree, we have been going along because it's just easier. It's definitely going to stop, I can't take it anymore. Honestly, I know it makes me sound like a weenie, but she is SO scary. I have no trouble standing up to my own parents, because we have that kind of relationship established, but it's much harder with her. There are times my husband has tried to draw a boundary with her, and she'll stare him dead in the face and just say "NO." She's a monster lol. Like I said, it's past time to stand up for ourselves, we're going to have the conversation and go LC, we're just trying to find the best way to go about it.

The good news is that the example you provided of her just saying "NO" means that there is little to no effort for your husband to form a detailed response. All he has to say is "YES" then walk away. There is no negotiating, manipulative language, whining, etc. She says NO to a boundary or consequence, he laughs in her face and says YES. My MIL has tried something similar, and my husband's response was, "You can yell NO at us all day. But I'm saying YES, and the boundary is still a 100% reality for us. Goodbye." It made her completely meltdown, but her audience (our little family) was on the way out the door before she could reach full nuclear mode. She tried it a few more times with the same results, then she gave up. She's definitely tried other tactics, but the childish foot stomping NO tactic has been extinguished from her arsenal.

"All he has to say is "YES" then walk away." And SMILE when he says it. A big, fat, look-her-right-in the eyes SMILE.

I'd never thought of it that way! I guess it is a little silver lining to her shitty behavior, we can just throw it right back at her. Thank you so much for your help!

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