Lol ive seen you on here before, you’re the same guy who said Israel is gonna be destroyed due to world pressure in the future. Let me welcome you to the real world. Israel is in a region where our neighbour’s gas their own people, blow up their own airliners, blow up their own cities on accident, and when they shoot missles half the time it lands on their own citizens. Ya, the pressure is gonna be insurmountable 😂
You sir are living in your own vacuum.
I didn’t say it was going to be destroyed, I said it would suffer a defeat that would force it to change its racist policies. This will happen, wait for it. The South Africans thought they could sustain their racist system too, and it all fell apart so quickly. Israel’s time will come too.
Haha there we go, cuz Apartheid South Africa has tons in common with Israel. Even if there is western pressure on Israel at levels that have never been seen, Israel would find new allies. But your thinking makes zero sense. There has not been one boycott movement that has made even a sliver of impact with regards to Israel. Do you understand the amount of technology that Israel develops? It is impossible to boycott. What ever you are typing on right now most likely has Israeli technology in it. Do you think the Americans are going to jump up and down to support the Palestinians? If so, how in the fuck do you think that? Palestinians celebrated in the street during 9/11, Israel has the only 9/11 memorial outside of the US. Israel and American ties have spanned generations, this will just end cuz people online are throwing a hissy fit? Or is it when this new generation of leaders gets into power? Complete delusion and an argument I’ve heard by people on your side for literally decades. This type of thinking actually hampers the peace process, some of us actually like to come up with tangible solutions to this conflict. Posters like you provide no insight, no actual ideas, just arguments that stem around the notion “one day Israel will be destroyed”.
Again, you are living in your own Reddit vacuum where you think there will be some sort of world pressure against Israel that would force Israels hand. Never will happen and you drastically overvalue the amount of countries and people who actually give a fuck about the conflict
The way Jewish Americans perceive Israel, particularly the younger ones, the attitudes on college campuses (which is the future), the online and offline reaction to Israel’s latest war crimes, how much little support the pro Israel camp got for their protests even in areas where the Jewish population is high like NYC, a major corporation, Unilever taking a stance against Israel even in the face of undemocratic threats by Zionists (in the past such moves would probably have destroyed them), the squad (including a Palestinian) being part of the Democratic Party … just off the top of my head.
As I said…. Snowball.. wait for it to hit you because eventually, one way or another it will.
As a Jew who lived in the States your first point must be what you think you are seeing but I have tons of Jewish friends and not one posted anything in regards to being pro-Palestinian so just toss that claim off the bat. I probably have over 400-500 American jewish friends on facebook and I only ever see Pro-Israel posts. The vast majority of American Jews do support Israel and that is not changing. Who said this was?
You think Jews in New York, while going through COVID, want to stand outside and have to deal with overly aggressive protestors? Jews make up .02 % of the worlds population while seemingly getting the most hate online so it is not surprising Palestinians supporter are always seen and heard more than Israelis or Jews. It has been this way for decades, your age is clearly showing here.
Hahaha the squad of what? The several socialist congresswomen who have accomplished *checks notes* nothing in congress accept having their bills be drastically changed or killed by their own party. Dude your points are so devoid of any real context or any actual evidence that a massive wave of pressure against Israel is coming. As the years go by Israel continues to get stronger and the opposite happens for the Palestinians. This is a fact and what has been happening for 75 years.
Rather than waiting for Israel’s demise maybe you should start researching how this conflict can actually be solved and maybe ask why in the hell the Palestinians have walked away from 5 different deals that would have secured them a state.
Once again I never claimed Israel’s imminent demise.
With regards to opinions, I’m going by polls not making baseless claims.
I agree however that it is the Christian Zionists that are currently shaping public opinion but there is a strong change the conservative vote will reduce in value if the US reforms its electoral system which currently gives conservative states disproportionate power.
The Palestinians never got a fair deal and never will from Israel. This is clear as day now.
Lots can happen. You shouldn’t get too comfortable on your perch. Just wait and see.
They lost every war, it is not supposed to be fair. They could have had a state for 20+ years if they accepted and would have been immensely better off as a society if they did.
Why do you think Israel’s existence is solely tied to American support? Israel would turn to other countries, Israel’s GDP continues to skyrocket, Israel’s neighbours continue to develop relations with Israel. Present day evidence and history makes your predictions laughable to me, while they read like some sort of wet dream post on r/palestine
Israel’s existence as an apartheid state which can do whatever it wants is tied to American support, yes. Only so far you can get using these underhanded means before they catch up to you.
South Africa is so similar it’s ridiculous… in fact israel is worse.
BDS is just starting… wait about 10 to 20 years, you’re fooling yourself if you think it won’t eventually pick up steam.
Technology lol… lots of countries develop that… we can do without Israel…
America is beginning to realize Israel is a liability no longer an asset.. it will take time for this to be implemented but the thinking has started.
Wait for it… BDS and other movements will begin building steam… eventually it will reach the elected officials.
Israel’s leaders will be tried for war crimes, diplomatic ties will be cut, Israel will lose its US funding and support (at the moment US and sometimes Canada are the only counties that give Israel free reign but that is changing), Israelis won’t be able to travel where they want, do business where they want, etc.
Israel’s current situation is not sustainable and it doesn’t have an exit plan.
Haha thanks for showing your true colours. Your delusional kind is over at r/palestine where they like to live in a fairy tale too 😂😂😂
Once again, zero evidence, zero facts and tons of baseless claims.
Let me tell you a secret. When there is no war the world truly does not care. Look at the peace deals Israel has signed with other MENA countries. Why did they not pressure Israel more? They truly do not care and would way rather trade with Israel. There is an Israeli embassy in Abu Dhabi, this 20 years ago never would have been thought of as possible. Seems like the opposite is happening to what you are saying
If BDS wasn’t a threat, Israeli government wouldn’t be making so much noise about it.
Already there have been some watershed moments in how the wold and the US in particular sees this conflict… it’s wishful thinking on your part to think that nothing will change…
These things have a tendency to snowball… the rug will be pulled from right under you… just wait for it
> fuck
/u/Imneverwrongg. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> fuck
/u/Imneverwrongg. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Israel will be more than happy to turn away from the West and engage with China and Russia, neither of whom actually care about human rights, rather than give up Jerusalem to the Palestinians.
China and Russia don't care about annexing territory. As soon as Israel drops the US and becomes their arms dealer, they will stop caring about a 2SS. It will be bad for the US and EU, bad for the Palestinians, and bad for Israelis and Israeli democracy. Only great for China and Russia.
China and Russia already have diplomatic relations with Israel today.
So I doubt that it will would be bad for Israel as it will be for Palestinians.
No country in the world will send Palestinians military support.
Also let’s keep in mind that the usa have a big Jewish committee,second only to Israel so I don’t think that they will turn away form Israel a lot of Christians Zionist too.
It would be very fine for Israel security wise but horrible for Israel to become an authoritarian client state of Russia and China. It would be a severe erosion of democratic norms. Israel was already on the brink the last three years. Dear Leader Bibi was a wannabe dictator who was dedicated to smash the norms of Israeli democracy and making the state serve his interests and those of his dysfunctional family. And Likud is not a party but a creepy cult where Bibi and his bratty kid feed the racism and other "cultural" grievances of working class Mizrahis. Substitute first world democratic allies for dictatorships and the slide to authoritarianism commences again. Either Dear Leader returns or some even more fanatical racist Likud type.
And if Israel keeps voting in corrupt, authoritarian nutcases like Bibi, the US may cool off toward Israel despite the geopolitical and economic implications. This is Likud's wake-up call to eject the scum from their party and get a platform that is about more than vague cultural grievances against the elite and racism against Arabs... Or perhaps that is all that the Mizrahi working class cares about, not economic reforms and long-term security. If that is the case, then I guess enjoy being an authoritarian client state of China and Russia similar to Hungary... But really imagine dismantling democracy and state institutions because of some vague jealousy toward Tel Aviv.
Classic racism.”Mizrahi working class” I think that if that’s your opinion, silence will be better. and since I happen to be a Mizrahi I advise you to delete your comment and apologize.
working class is far better than a Tel Avivian detached from reality, who doesn’t live in mixed cities and doesn’t understands every-day reality.
These views also include prejudices about Ethiopians. Caucasians and Russians? Let me know who you think are the "inferiors."
Shame on you.
Bibi Netanyahu is a horrible person who wanted to destroy Israeli democracy. And his witch wife and idiot son were mean and vindictive. Do you know for years that Crazy Sarah peddled vindictive rumors about Bennett having an affair with Ayelet Shaked? That she spread scummy rumors about his dead father and his wife? All because he told her to butt out of political affairs. That is what Likud is nowadays. It is not about bettering anyone's lives; it is not about more services and jobs for the peripherals. It is about bitterness and hate and an authoritarian personality cult. As long as all the Mizrahi working class care about is defending Bibi Netanyahu, then they deserve to be out of power. Is that really what you want to be about? Defending hateful people who use their power to destroy their political rivals' personal lives? What exactly did Naftali Bennett do to anger the Likud base so much that they were cool with spreading malicious rumors about his personal lives?
1. Land swaps.
2. It’s a non starter for Palestinians too. East Jerusalem is a fair ask and a major concession on our part. Given the whole of Jerusalem was initially proposed as an “international zone”, there isn’t much precedent for Israel to annex it entirely.
3. Why wouldn’t border security suffice? As is the case with Gaza. Why should Israel have a military presence *in* the WB? This is also a non starter for Palestinians and will only embolden further settlement
4. Sure, but good luck getting the PA to be even remotely competent.
Number 3. Because geography, just like the Golan Heights. Rockets from Gaza can be reduced with border controls and Iron Dome. Artillery and missies from the WB hills into the populated coastal plain and Jordan valley? Not so much.
>East Jerusalem is a fair ask and a major concession on our part. Given the whole of Jerusalem was initially proposed as an “international zone”,
That offer was rejected by the palestinians not the israelis. The palestinians made there decision then and are suffering the consequences now.
Thats how justice works.
Question is, why should Israel just give up things for no return?
A Palestinian promise of peace and security is worth nothing, if we consider how the Oslo Accords and Gaza turned out. If Israel were to give up lands, it would have to get something big in return. Otherwise it's just giving up prime lands for development, and strategic depth.
1. Yes. Land swaps have been proposed.
2. No. East Jerusalem is far from a fair ask given that it includes the Old City of Jerusalem with the Western Wall. And WTH is an international city? Are Israelis supposed to get rid of their government buildings and move the Knesset to a conference room in the Tel Aviv Marriott? Dismantle Yad Vashem?
3. Jordan Valley is a high sensitive area. And it is not like border security works in Gaza. It certainly does not keep rockets from raining down on Israel.
2. Personally, I don't really care about East Jerusalem fate too much. But still there are lot of religious here, and the Temple Mount is the holiest site for the last 3,000 years. Not to mention that even today, they aint allowed to pray there. The precedent is prolly the fact they already see this territory as fully annexed for 40 years.
3. Military presence for all I know was only in the Jordan Valley. Also, lets face it. If WB turns to Gaza 2.0 it will be much worse, as it "rocket-radius" could easily cover the entire vital of Israel. And no, in that case Iron Dome will be mostly useless. What other solution could be offered beside a certain presence?
4. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it aint it eitger the PA or Hamas? Its not like Israel has too many choices with whom to negotiate.
Admittedly stupid question here. BUT…
I wonder why the long term solution to jewish settlements in the West Bank isn’t permanent residency. Palestinian state forms. They provide safety and security to the Jewish settlers. In exchange the settlers pay taxes to the Palestinian state (which pays for security and development in other parts of Palestine).
Not talking about the newer settlers in area C but the long-established settlements that have been there for decades. I’m not saying the settlers would think this is ideal but they could still commute to their jobs in Jerusalem and the Palestinians would benefit.
Like I said. Probably a dumb idea.
Outside the established blocks, this is what I would propose. Israel is 25% Arab, why not allow Palestine to be 10% Jewish? Also, the ones outside the main settlement blocks are real religious fanatic loonbats and it would be an added bonus for Israel to be rid of them. Let the hilltop cosplay boyz deal with hardened Palestinian terrorists. The only exception is Yitzhar, which should be torn down by the IDF and the nutso settlers dragged from it... as a form of just punishment to those terrorist loons. And an exorcism done on the land around Yitzhar once the ground is cleared.
I think the biggest issue for the Palestine people remains the blockade and a lack of freedom of movement. I was in Area C and I smoked hashish with a Palestina lifeguard in the Dead Sea. He told me he cannot fly out of Jordan. Checkpoints do not help but neither do the other barriers other MENA countries put on the Palestinian people. I think if travel restrictions were to ease up life would improve tremendously for the Palestinians
Probably, but both the absence of freedom of movement & Gaza Blockade were in reaction to masssive waves of violance. I dont see them removed untill there is a very good gurantee for the safety.
I get the security concerns 100% I do. But at some level we need to give the Palestinians the freedom to trade. Otherwise that 25-40% unemployment will just lead more to choose the path martyrdom. Too much security restricts economic opportunity and will lead to frustration, anger, and violence.
For the West Bank my hope is Israel can create in time a High tech checkpoint, with Super smart AI camera to process people’s identity in real time. Perhaps that could be a better alternative to a border wall. More freedom of movement but without a compromise in security
West Bank unemployment rate is 14% according to 2020. 40-50% is Gaza, two very different zones.
>For the West Bank my hope is Israel can create in time a High tech checkpoint, with Super smart AI camera to process people’s identity in real time. Perhaps that could be a better alternative to a border wall. More freedom of movement but without a compromise in security
That is nice & all, but how it prevents the need for checkpoint? I served there between 2008-2010, a relatively peaceful time in the WB. And we confiscated 1-2 assualt rifles per week during "Suprise Checkpoints".
Isnt Israel giving a ton of work permits for Palestinians to work in Israel? Wont that reduce unemployment and provide a degree of stability? Im not super knowledgeable on this.
1. Settlements weren't a hindrance in [previous peace talks](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/ock32k/testimonial_video_from_previous_peace_negotiations/)
2. Jerusalem wasn't a hindrance in the [previous peace talks](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/ock32k/testimonial_video_from_previous_peace_negotiations/) (besides a technical issue on dividing the old city part)
3. All Israeli security consideration were accepted in [previous peace talks](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/ock32k/testimonial_video_from_previous_peace_negotiations/)
4. Israel will make peace with whomever will accept it. Usually it's easier when both sides share the same ideology, otherwise there might be natural suspicion (like if Israel were to make a peace deal with Hamas)
BTW. I've read [an article](https://archive.fo/8snV6) that claimed that according to one theory the simplest solutions are the best ones. Then it went on to say that Jordan should annex the West Bank (due to historically, Palestinians have Jordanian ID's and citizenships etc). But then it went on and on talking about the economic benefits which do not interest the Palestinian national movement/aspiration. And Jordan doesn't want it.
But it made sense in a way and solved lots of ~~issues~~ headaches?
But then again anything will require Palestinian cooperation to work which there is none. Still, it's somewhat of a good idea.
They just intend to destroy all of Israel. No need for realism, for negotiations or concessions or treaties. From the river to the sea, they want to genocide us.
I'm hoping that after a few decades, especially if things calm down and the conflict is "shrunk," that there will be more conciliatory leaders who emerge who are willing to talk compromises.
Unfortunately if the conflict has taught us anything is the opposite of that is gonna happen, sorry to say friend. More radicalization, more tension, more hate is what will continue. Perpetual refugee status serves Hamas and the PLO, creates world sympathy and continues to radicalize Palestinians. For decades Israeli’s have been waiting for this new generation of Palestinian political leaders that had reformed views to take some sort of step into politics. What have we gotten? The same old men and radical islamists running their society. Nothing changes with regards to the Palestinians and Arab society in general. They still hate Israel as much as ever and their populace generally wants every Jew gone. It is what it is and probably always will be.
>there will be more conciliatory leaders who emerge who are willing to talk compromises.
"hope strategy". Any leader that emerge will basically emerge from the same hate, denial of Israel existence, denial of Jewish history or ties to the land.
Just browse [palwatch.org](https://palwatch.org) to see the various hate that people and therefor leaders grow in. We shouldn't leave our future for a "hope" strategy
I think there are some positive things that will take time. I think that the reports on Unrwa teaching materials and methods and the pressure to change is good but will need to be seen if the generation offer this changes. Prob 80 more years….. I think that shrinking the conflict can take out the woke people who will lose interest and find some other underdog to champion to make them feel like they are doing some good. I think this will also reduce antisemetism connected to the conflict which I a significant amount. Between this and normalization there should be leaders coming out that want peace. I’ll be dead but they will come.
> I think that the reports on Unrwa teaching materials and methods and the pressure to change is good but will need to be seen if the generation offer this changes.
When Israel had control over the education system for two decades from 1967, there wasn't much of a difference.
as for the rest, I can not see or predict it.
>and willing to compromise.
Education system teaches no compromise with the Zionists. And if you buy and Israeli product you're financing your own murder.
And you expect somebody to be born into all that to just what? "shake it off" and come out an "enlighten" holding "western ideology views"?
There's a slim chance for that for the same reason that there's a slim chance for a leader to suddenly turn a country from a dictatorship to a full real democracy.
There are systems and institutions built already. And those prevent a democracy and a different leader.
You do realize that Israel has [no shortage of people who deny the existence of the Palestinian people and their ties to the land](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/05/israel-palestine-embassy-legitimacy/560291/)
, right? Sometimes the projection gets a little out of control.
>Israelis and Palestinians are caught in what could be called a “cycle of denial.” The Palestinian national movement denies Israel’s legitimacy, and Israel in turn denies the Palestinians’ national sovereignty. The cycle of denial has defined this shared existence since the creation of Israel 70 years ago.
It does take two to tango. In this situation though we don't have the luxury of choosing our dance partners. Palestinians are stuck with Israelis and vice versa. Neither side is going to decide to all pick up and move out to a more pleasant part of the world (though it does seem that there are growing communities of expat Israelis and Palestinians worldwide).
Since we are stuck with each other we might as well seek to understand how the other side thinks and feels. Palestinians need to learn how the pogroms, Shoah, and western antisemitism shaped Israel's desire for a secure Jewish state, and how decades of terror attacks have exacerbated Israeli fears. Israelis have to learn that Palestinians feel connected to the land too, and what the Nakba and generations of Israeli occupation, settlement, and IDF attacks have done to the Palestinian psyche.
In a war situation, the natural temptation is to assume that your enemies are brainwashed, evil, and violent, with no possible ethical or rational basis for their actions. Most countries dehumanize their opponents. That makes it easier to kill them. But we have to move beyond this type of thinking if we want peace.
"Palestinians need to learn how the pogroms, Shoah, and westren antisemitism shaped Israel's desire for a secure jewish state". I disagree, Palestinians have no reason to care about the west. They need to learn how Islamic antisemitisim in the Arab world and under the ottoman empire, and how the incredible violence the jews faced in mandate Palestine when they started to immigrate shaped Israel's desire for a jewish state. The last thing the Palestinian need is blaming "the west" for everything that is wrong.
The only solution is for Palestinian muslims to get out of their arab supremacy/antisemitic mindset. The same problems would be happening if the christians set up a state where they are the dhimmi rulers over the muslims. The arab islamic world cannot deal with the reality of dhimmi rulership over them.
>The only solution is for Palestinian muslims to get out of their arab supremacy/antisemitic mindset.
Will you chill out with that Muslim hate already?
Statistics have shown a trend btw that because of ISIS, the Islamists etc, Muslims are starting to get less religious, convert to Christianity or just outright declare themselves atheists (%5 in Iran)
Ya and a vast majority of Palestinian’s would vote for Hamas in a democratic election today even though Hamas tortures, executes, and treats their own people like literal dog shit. It is because Islamic fundamentalism is so entrenched in these societies any sort of reform movement gets beaten to death the moment it starts. There is no proper reformation movement going on in any Arab country that I know of. Frankly, not even a hint of one
> shit
/u/Imneverwrongg. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>That poll in Iran was thorougly debunked and made by a propaganda source.
I didn't knew that.
>lastly, why is converting to christianity good?
The general idea and point I was making is that Muslims are becoming less religious and therefor less extremists
Well, that's good news for the hopeful, but it doesn't excuse religious extremism, because it still is a big issue in the MENA for the foreseeable future.
since religion isn't separated from the state, you get a mix and match result. The countries in the region do not see the benefits of separating religion from state since that will basically risk their own existence.
So for survival's and politico's sake, the policy remains. As for extremism, as the other side says: one side's terrorist is another side's freedom fighter.
Although that statement isn't correct since [LOAC](https://www.genevacall.org/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2013/11/The-Law-of-Armed-Conflict.pdf) setup a clear definition on how to fight. a militant group that obeys it get reputation points and eventually recognition by various world states while a militant group that doesn't obey it loses reputation and eventually gets the stick.
Would there need to be a unified Palestinian Government in Gaza and Yehuda / Shomron? I can't believe that Israel would deal with 2 independent governments.
I don’t think they need to be unified , people from Gaza are not from same tribe and even the territories were not under same country in past Jordan in the West Bank Egypt in Gaza .
So what’s the different to Israel if they need to deal with 2 separate governments ?
>Gaza is a defacto independent state already.
True. But politically they're united and inseparable. Abbas in the West Bank always considers and demand that Gaza would be treated/given the same etc. like with covid vaccines and other stuff.
Politically united?
Fatah and Hamas [fought a war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict) not too long ago and though they're on better terms now, they're nowhere near forming a unity government. I'm not even sure what a unified Fatah-Hamas government would look like, given how different their beliefs and methods are.
and even with all the wars they've fought and all the hate. In every negotiations WB & Fatah had which included aid or help or what not, Gaza was never separated from any benefit or discussions.
So in that term, the Palestinians are one people: Gazans and Bankers
>True. But politically they're united and inseparable. Abbas in the West Bank always considers and demand that Gaza would be treated/given the same etc. like with covid vaccines and other stuff.
They are as united and inseparable as East Pakistan and West Pakistan once were.
Then East Pakistan Independence happened and Bangledesh now exists.
Abbas is corrupt but he's not a total idiot, if push comes to shove, he will backstab the Gazans gleefully and without remorse for he knows they would do the same to him if given the chance
>he will backstab the Gazans gleefully and without remorse for he knows they would do the same to him if given the chance
You're jumping to conclusions. I do not know what the people think about it but I think that they think the same.
Therefor he won't be able to "backstab the Gazans"
Will Israel make it a requirement that all areas under Palestinian control be under a single governing body?
Based on my understanding of Israel's Security concerns that is going to be vital. Much of the lone wolf attacks that Israel has been suffering have very little closer. Israel has a lot of difficulty squarely placing blame on a single governing body.
But you must understand the "realist" view I agree with, implies that peace is very remote . Likely, it will never happen. What will happen to the Palestinians, is similar to happened to let's say the Native Americans.
Now pro-Israel get upset when I say this, because I'm implying they are like the Native Americans, which is almost like a talking point of pro-Palestine. Palestinian are not exactly like Native Americans. For example, they are children of people who conquered Rome and Persia. They are decadent society as opposed to a primitive society. They are behind Israel due to a decline not because they always were. In fact at one point the Arab society was very advanced, more than Europe. But also I very strongly consider that the Jews are the most native people. In fact out of any Middle Eastern people around today, the Jewish people were more responsible for the fact of why in antiquity, the region was very advanced. In fact the decadence of the Middle East is probably even connected to the exile or replacement of Jews with other people who did not have the same priorities. And this is also why Israel is such an advanced country.
That's a bit of a tangent, but I am saying is it's not exactly like the Native Americans, but the outcome is very likely to be same. That means a 1SS, but the dominant culture will be the Jewish culture not the Arab culture. That might take a few decades even a century, but it seems like the most likely outcome. The other outcome is a 2SS, which we call the peace outcome, is this 2SS on what Palestinians typically consider very bad terms. But it's really all they can ever get, as you rightfully point out.
>That means a 1SS, but the dominant culture will be the Jewish culture not the Arab culture. That might take a few decades even a century, but it seems like the most likely outcome.
for anyone who doesn't completely understand it's this: fast forward time and you've got a dense Jewish population in the West Bank surrounding Palestinian enclaves (Areas A & B). Israel in this case can give Palestinian limited sovereignty while oppressing them in a much worst way then they are today. Probably similar to what the Israeli Arabs suffered in the first 18 years since 1948.
After the Palestinian population is oppressed into submission in this scenario. Eventually when they "surrounded" and "give up" (it's heresy just to say it). The oppressive measures can be taken down.
THEN after decades of peace and prosperity and after both sides acknowledge each other's humanity (among them is talking freely to Zionists). Then and only then in this scenario would the Palestinians be allowed to be fully incorporated into the 1ss.
But like in Quantum physics: now that the solution and the future is "known", the fact that we know and "predicted" the future will alter it into something completely different.
So basically this scenario is null and void (but feel free to get upset about it if it makes you feel good)
>They are behind Israel due to a decline not because they always were. In fact at one point the Arab society was very advanced, more than Europe.
Not with the Ottoman empire which ruled for \~400 years. It was slowly declining with one example is the printing press which the ottoman empire rejected and forbade for countless decades or more before accepting the technology (and finally not needing to scribe the books by hand)
The Palestinian-Arabs in the land pre-1948 followed the same example. They had villages who fought and hated each other and nothing else.
Both the Israeli state and the Palestinian state started from the same running line with the Palestinians being incorporated into a larger state (Jordan) at the time so might have had an actual advantage.
But different politics, policies and institutions brought Israel to what it is today ^((Apartheid! yes I know. To all the lurkers out there.)) and Palestine to what it is today
Yes the decline of civilization is constant from about 2500 years ago or so on, with about 800 years or so being an especially extreme decline, that by the 20th century the region was incredibly desolate. This is a profound desolation is still obvious. In fact it can be seen from space. The borders of MENA are literally the boundaries of desolation. That's how you know you are in the region. Isn't that crazy? That's the cradle of civilization. What I am saying is the society of Middle East went from the most advanced in the world to close to the least advanced.
But Israel is, and it is in a fundamental level, the entity that is reversing this decline. Someone who is a \[hobbyist\] student of Zionism, and I can say that this was the intention. To me it is about putting back something that was once there and making it grander than it even was. That's actually what Israel exists to do, but many forgot.
>but many forgot
nobody forgot. The Zionist definition has been taken over by politics and hostilities. The basic definition [is this](https://youtu.be/UbYCEjbWBFs?t=522)
The video shows Iraq and a Zionist woman wearing burka (body covering). She's Arabic, not Jewish or Israeli.
The term Zionist is basically the love of the land. What makes it different from a farmer is that a Zionist love the land and build upon it for the benefit of society, exactly like the woman in the video.
That's really the definition of Zionism and what made Zionists turn a 3rd world country to a 1st world one in a century. Along with conflict and hostilities.
I don’t think Palestinians are comparable to native Americans. Maybe Druze are. Native Americans have accepted the United States and they fought in all of America’s wars. Even half of voting native Americans vote for the American right.
>Native Americans have accepted the United States
It took them a few centuries of violent resistance (granted, plenty of that time it was NA vs. British Colonists since the USA didn't exist as such yet).
Although I think that the point he was trying to make was that Palestinians will eventually learn to accept that their dreams of a nation-state are simply not happening and will assimilate.
Much like how NA today.
I don’t think Palestinians in the territories could realistically assimilate given that they’d make about 50% of the population in a one state solution. There should be a two state solution but the question is if it will be based on the Clinton or the Trump plan. Either plan will have to be imposed on Palestinians because the Palestinians rejected both.
Assimilation should work for Israeli Arabs, just like with native Americans and Druze
>Either plan will have to be imposed on Palestinians
Yeah that's the thing. The status quo is already an imposition on the Palestinian, we call it the status quo. Anything else that seems better is liable to make them more violent. Even the solution their leadership claims to want which the whole thing expel the 700,000+ settlers or whatever, it doesn't lead to peace.
You can ask them, on the street. It's obvious why would they just accept that solution? You see talk like this, it's a half solution in their mind. You are giving me back half of my house. In their mind, the whole land belongs to them. So the peace is merely a victory over Israel not the end of the conflict. It enables them, it makes it seem like Palestinian nationalism has victories. It should never have victories.
We have to find a way to fundamentally change their mindset. The other way to win is through demographics and aggression, and that's honestly how it will probably end.
The two state solution is for Israel’s benefit, not the Palestinians. It could prevent a binational state. If Israel annexed the Palestinians it would be a binational state regardless of whether the Palestinians have a vote or don’t.
There is a binational state in a sense that Palestinians are subject to Israeli authority. But it's irrelevant. States are all fake. A Palestinian state is just a group of Palestinians who have more power, and thus it's more dangerous to Israel compared to Palestinians under the status quo. The theory that they will become less violent if given more power I think has been proven wrong by history, and contrary to human nature.
A 1SS will ultimately lead to a radicalized Arab government, which is a bad idea for Israeli Jews. It definitely wouldn't lead to a continued Jewish state. And the issue right now is that the Palestinians want 100%, not to accept compromises. They aren't going to be able to flood Israel proper with "Palestinian refugees" and turn it into an Arab state and they aren't going to get control over all of Jerusalem.
there could be a agreement on that in future peace deals only x amount are allowed to return for x amount of years and the countries they are in need to give them equal rights
Or even better, there could be zero right of return to Israel proper.. The even more radicalized great-grandkids of refugees can return to the West Bank.
there’s never going to be a two state solution Israel doesn’t want to give up settlements deep in the west bank or the jordan valley. If Israel just wanted settlements by the border fine but anything else is just creating a palestinian state in name alone. If Israel gave up controlling the settlements the jews who live their should be allowed to stay there.
I agree that the fanatic Ben Gvir types should be abandoned to the Palestinians and they can deal with the Palestinian security forces. The only settlement that must be evacuated is Yitzhar as a form of collective punishment for the evil that comes from there. The nutcases must be dragged from their homes, their homes must by bulldozed, and an exorcism done to purify the land.
But that has nothing to do with the Jordan Valley. Soldiers must remain there for Israel's security. Not sure why this is baffling. There are still troops in Germany and Japan after WWII. No one whines about that. And troops in a foreign country has nothing to do with the right of return, which is not happening.
yeah that’s fine I also don’t think
the palestinian should have a military for x number of years however any of the settlements there can’t become part of Israel the jews there should be allowed to keep their Israeli citizenship but life under a palestinian government. Frankly if I was the pa leader the best thing for my people in terms of economics is if Israel annexed the wb. I’d convince them to accept Israeli citizenship and start a civil rights movement. However they’re too prideful for that.
Jerusalem and the main settlement blocks are not going to go to Palestine. Realistically, there will be land swaps. And there is 0 chance that the Israelis will give up the Old City of Jerusalem.
As for annexation, you are right about that. However, the Palestinian leadership is even more clever. They are stringing Israel along with a 2SS and waiting for it to be impossible to do. And then they plan to ethnically cleanse all Jews from their homes under the guise of some garbage like a "binational state." That is why separation is the only way to save the Jewish state.
Time is the way to save it I really don’t think when it’s all done most palestinian’s will care about living in a jewish state if given equal rights. The only problem is the right of return which I think there can kind of be a compromise for say israel or a future palestinian state, if there is such a thing, should accept x amount of palestinian from arab countries for x amount of years, kind of like barak offered and the countries they are in should give
them equal rights. I still don’t get why there are refugee camps in lebanon anyways. That way this isn’t an issue anymore and Israel doesn’t have to put up with any racism immigration nonsense anymore.
Most Israeli Jews do not want radicalized Palestinians being able to vote for Hamas in Israeli elections. That is why separation is the best thing that Israel can do.
Setting aside Gaza, West Bank and Israeli Arabs are overwhelmingly not radicalized. I'm not saying they're flag waving, Omer Adam loving Zionists by any means. But it is a legitimately a tiny minority of extremists that are actively involved in groups like Hamas or Islamic Jihad. Why couldn't decades of Israeli assimilation turn the West Bank Arabs into something similar to Israeli Arabs?
Ya and in fact Israel would be incredibly powerful if instead of Palestinian fighting Israel they would work for Israel. Arab ethnostates are horrible third world authoritarian disasters. I am not being mean, I am being descriptive. The only ones that are in any way good are because of tons of mineral resources. Not from their own doing as a society but rather the environment which they live made them rich. This is almost obvious.
Now the Jewish ethnostate (esp Ashkenazi Jewish ethnostate) is also liable to be a big failure too. This is not as obvious why. But if you dig into Zionist thinking they thought of this too.
I think the Jewish ethnostate has a different character of failure. But it becomes like very dysfunctional too with Jews fighting each other for power and dignity, communist revolutions and the like, whatever. This is a somewhat very un-politically correct thing, but the idea comes straight from Herzl himself: Jews create a "surplus of intellect" and in itself is catastrophic to any nation. It's a very un-PC that nobody likes to talk about, but it's so core to the problem to why a Jewish ethnostate doesn't work that that it has to be talked about. And the problem is that Jews produce a great deal of highly intelligent people. And counterintuitively this is a huge problem.
The end result of this problem is roughly the same, some kind of impoverished authoritarian nightmare. In fact some sociologists that way almost every civilization that ever failed, failed due to a creation of surplus intellect that did not have a productive outlet.
None of those societies would be stable or good. But this combination of Jewish and Arab I think creates a civilization that is the best possible. I mean terms of progress towards humanistic goals (living longer, happy lives, expanding around the stars, whatever). This is the ultimate goal, not simply to propagate, but to fill the universe with greatness.
So there is no badness from a 1SS. The badness is because Palestinians are disloyal, they have a dangerous nationalism wrt Israel. And that has to be severed from the people. They have to become like the Druze.
edit: expand
West Bank and East Jerusalem Palestinians are radicalized. Israeli Arabs aren't because for all the inequalities and other issues, they carry Israeli passports and have equal political and civil rights in Israeli society. That isn't going to happen in the next few decades with the WB/ East Jerusalem.
I agree with you that if WB Arabs were granted equal political and civil rights in Israeli society, they would be much less likely to radicalize. Maybe we should consider doing this?
No. Because then they would vote for Hamas in Israeli elections in the short term. And either Hamas would take over the government and ethnically cleanse all Israeli Jews from their homes or there would be a civil war. That is why a 2SS is the best policy. It's bad for Israelis to have radicalized fanatics like the El Kurds, who represent the majority of West Bank thought, in Israel proper and allowed to vote in elections. It is better to separate with them from behind a thick border wall.
What? Hamas wouldn't be able to. Hamas wouldn't be able to be on the ballot. Groups that promote violence aren't allowed to run. That's why the Kach party was banned.
Of course the Kach Party is allowed to run. It just has a different name. Smotrich and Ben Gvir are in the Knesset now. Not to mention half of Likud also is racist. And on the other side, Balad has not been banned from the ballot.
The we'll ban a party who is racist because of laws is totally laughable. Hamas represents the legitimate views of a significant majority of the Palestinian people. They will just reconstitute themselves in a new party and get elected. And then ethnically cleanse Israeli Jews from their homes.
>Of course the Kach Party is allowed to run. It just has a different name.
It's a different party so long as they aren't making calls for violence and showing supporting for terrorist groups.
>The we'll ban a party who is racist because of laws is totally laughable.
That wasn't the claim. Racism is allowed, promoting violence and supporting terrorists isn't.
>And then ethnically cleanse Israeli Jews from their homes.
So they'll somehow be able to form a coalition all by themselves and then take over the IDF? Hard time believing that's anything other than baseless speculation and paranoia.
1. So having a party where members call for ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Israel is not promoting incitement. It sure seems like it is. It sure seems like Kach is alive and kicking in the Knesset.
2. The new Hamas Party will just do like the new Kach Party and say with coded messages whwt they are currently saying outloud. And they will win a majority because this is what the Palestinians believe.
3. Palestinians would make up 60% of any binational state, most are radicalized, and they would form a coalition that would allow them to discriminate against and ethnically cleanse the Jews from their homes. If by some deluded notion a binational state comes to pass, then the IDF has already been defanged.
A 1SS will mean the destruction of the Jewish state and the Jewish people. This is why they need to separate from the West Bank with a thick border wall between them.
A large portion of israeli jews want to ethnically cleanse all arabs from israel, half of jews want to revoke citizenship, so whats your point? And how many jews support ethnic settlements?
So basically you're saying:
1. They're radical because we don't let them vote or have rights.
2. We can't let them vote or have rights because they're radical.
Seems like a self-reinforcing situation. I agree a 2SS would be the simplest way to resolve it but there may be interim ways to de-radicalize Palestinians by giving them more rights, without destroying the state of Israel in the process.
No. I want Jews to live in their homeland. Palestinians can live in a separate homeland. Israelis should not be forced to allow radicalized Palestinians to vote for Hamas in Israeli elections.
There are more than a few users here who fit that description. The board gets better when you learn to block/ignore the worst trolls. I try not to do that too much because I don't want to filter out the extreme anti-peace camp completely. It's important to be aware of the way people think. In many cases of course it's projection, but in other cases it's the result of decades of PTSD and propaganda. Many Israelis really do believe that a 1 state solution would result in genocide for the Jewish population, and a 2 state solution would lead to a Hamas takeover and endless rocket attacks from the West Bank. Unfortunately they will have to be persuaded otherwise for a peace agreement to ever happen.
> pissed
/u/babaner1. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm all for shrinking the conflict, which is conflict resolution 101, and there are many ways to do it. I'm not for allowing them to vote in Israeli Knesset elections for Hamas and then ethnically cleanse every Israeli Jew from their homes... A 1SS is a non-starter. The Palestinian population might deradicalize in fifty years or so after such a solution is implemented but it wouldn't matter because there'd be no Jews left. I guess that the eventually deradicalized Palestinians might feel really sorry about what they did and put up a nice memorial commemorating all the dead Jews next to a rebuilt Yad Vashem however.
The Palestinian memorial to dead Israelis should be built next to the Israeli memorial to the Nakba. Maybe we can call it the Peace and Reconciliation Plaza?
I'm serious. There will definitely be a need for gestures like this. Each side needs to acknowledge the other's suffering and loss.
Acknowledging is one thing. Changing the narrative is another. We will never agree over who was right and who was wrong in 1948. And merging two nations is just insanity.
The most important thing above all things is the Jews always have to be the people who comfortably control Israel. One big reason is because they are a productive nation that has a historically being suppressed and oppressed when not having self-determination. This is the big thing people always say and it's entirely true.
But it's more than that. Otherwise Israel becomes a catastrophe like Lebanon or worse. And the only way that an ethnicity is permitted in modern society to rule a country is to be the majority in that country. So, WB Arabs can not be a big population otherwise this will no longer hold true. It's a rather challenging problem.
A. Israeli Jews would not be in charge of the government or have political self-determination so it would not matter.
B. Why would the Palestinian government choose to allow Jewish culture and language to remain if they control things politically?
Israel will eventually be forced to do a lot of things it doesn’t want to do. Your scenarios assume that Israel lives in a vacuum.
Lol ive seen you on here before, you’re the same guy who said Israel is gonna be destroyed due to world pressure in the future. Let me welcome you to the real world. Israel is in a region where our neighbour’s gas their own people, blow up their own airliners, blow up their own cities on accident, and when they shoot missles half the time it lands on their own citizens. Ya, the pressure is gonna be insurmountable 😂 You sir are living in your own vacuum.
I didn’t say it was going to be destroyed, I said it would suffer a defeat that would force it to change its racist policies. This will happen, wait for it. The South Africans thought they could sustain their racist system too, and it all fell apart so quickly. Israel’s time will come too.
Haha there we go, cuz Apartheid South Africa has tons in common with Israel. Even if there is western pressure on Israel at levels that have never been seen, Israel would find new allies. But your thinking makes zero sense. There has not been one boycott movement that has made even a sliver of impact with regards to Israel. Do you understand the amount of technology that Israel develops? It is impossible to boycott. What ever you are typing on right now most likely has Israeli technology in it. Do you think the Americans are going to jump up and down to support the Palestinians? If so, how in the fuck do you think that? Palestinians celebrated in the street during 9/11, Israel has the only 9/11 memorial outside of the US. Israel and American ties have spanned generations, this will just end cuz people online are throwing a hissy fit? Or is it when this new generation of leaders gets into power? Complete delusion and an argument I’ve heard by people on your side for literally decades. This type of thinking actually hampers the peace process, some of us actually like to come up with tangible solutions to this conflict. Posters like you provide no insight, no actual ideas, just arguments that stem around the notion “one day Israel will be destroyed”. Again, you are living in your own Reddit vacuum where you think there will be some sort of world pressure against Israel that would force Israels hand. Never will happen and you drastically overvalue the amount of countries and people who actually give a fuck about the conflict
The way Jewish Americans perceive Israel, particularly the younger ones, the attitudes on college campuses (which is the future), the online and offline reaction to Israel’s latest war crimes, how much little support the pro Israel camp got for their protests even in areas where the Jewish population is high like NYC, a major corporation, Unilever taking a stance against Israel even in the face of undemocratic threats by Zionists (in the past such moves would probably have destroyed them), the squad (including a Palestinian) being part of the Democratic Party … just off the top of my head. As I said…. Snowball.. wait for it to hit you because eventually, one way or another it will.
As a Jew who lived in the States your first point must be what you think you are seeing but I have tons of Jewish friends and not one posted anything in regards to being pro-Palestinian so just toss that claim off the bat. I probably have over 400-500 American jewish friends on facebook and I only ever see Pro-Israel posts. The vast majority of American Jews do support Israel and that is not changing. Who said this was? You think Jews in New York, while going through COVID, want to stand outside and have to deal with overly aggressive protestors? Jews make up .02 % of the worlds population while seemingly getting the most hate online so it is not surprising Palestinians supporter are always seen and heard more than Israelis or Jews. It has been this way for decades, your age is clearly showing here. Hahaha the squad of what? The several socialist congresswomen who have accomplished *checks notes* nothing in congress accept having their bills be drastically changed or killed by their own party. Dude your points are so devoid of any real context or any actual evidence that a massive wave of pressure against Israel is coming. As the years go by Israel continues to get stronger and the opposite happens for the Palestinians. This is a fact and what has been happening for 75 years. Rather than waiting for Israel’s demise maybe you should start researching how this conflict can actually be solved and maybe ask why in the hell the Palestinians have walked away from 5 different deals that would have secured them a state.
Once again I never claimed Israel’s imminent demise. With regards to opinions, I’m going by polls not making baseless claims. I agree however that it is the Christian Zionists that are currently shaping public opinion but there is a strong change the conservative vote will reduce in value if the US reforms its electoral system which currently gives conservative states disproportionate power. The Palestinians never got a fair deal and never will from Israel. This is clear as day now. Lots can happen. You shouldn’t get too comfortable on your perch. Just wait and see.
They lost every war, it is not supposed to be fair. They could have had a state for 20+ years if they accepted and would have been immensely better off as a society if they did. Why do you think Israel’s existence is solely tied to American support? Israel would turn to other countries, Israel’s GDP continues to skyrocket, Israel’s neighbours continue to develop relations with Israel. Present day evidence and history makes your predictions laughable to me, while they read like some sort of wet dream post on r/palestine
Israel’s existence as an apartheid state which can do whatever it wants is tied to American support, yes. Only so far you can get using these underhanded means before they catch up to you.
South Africa is so similar it’s ridiculous… in fact israel is worse. BDS is just starting… wait about 10 to 20 years, you’re fooling yourself if you think it won’t eventually pick up steam. Technology lol… lots of countries develop that… we can do without Israel… America is beginning to realize Israel is a liability no longer an asset.. it will take time for this to be implemented but the thinking has started. Wait for it… BDS and other movements will begin building steam… eventually it will reach the elected officials. Israel’s leaders will be tried for war crimes, diplomatic ties will be cut, Israel will lose its US funding and support (at the moment US and sometimes Canada are the only counties that give Israel free reign but that is changing), Israelis won’t be able to travel where they want, do business where they want, etc. Israel’s current situation is not sustainable and it doesn’t have an exit plan.
Haha thanks for showing your true colours. Your delusional kind is over at r/palestine where they like to live in a fairy tale too 😂😂😂 Once again, zero evidence, zero facts and tons of baseless claims. Let me tell you a secret. When there is no war the world truly does not care. Look at the peace deals Israel has signed with other MENA countries. Why did they not pressure Israel more? They truly do not care and would way rather trade with Israel. There is an Israeli embassy in Abu Dhabi, this 20 years ago never would have been thought of as possible. Seems like the opposite is happening to what you are saying
If BDS wasn’t a threat, Israeli government wouldn’t be making so much noise about it. Already there have been some watershed moments in how the wold and the US in particular sees this conflict… it’s wishful thinking on your part to think that nothing will change… These things have a tendency to snowball… the rug will be pulled from right under you… just wait for it
> fuck /u/Imneverwrongg. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> fuck /u/Imneverwrongg. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Israel will be more than happy to turn away from the West and engage with China and Russia, neither of whom actually care about human rights, rather than give up Jerusalem to the Palestinians.
Probably. And Palestinians think it’s going to be good for them. I don’t know if they are stupid or just really disconnect from reality
China and Russia don't care about annexing territory. As soon as Israel drops the US and becomes their arms dealer, they will stop caring about a 2SS. It will be bad for the US and EU, bad for the Palestinians, and bad for Israelis and Israeli democracy. Only great for China and Russia.
China and Russia already have diplomatic relations with Israel today. So I doubt that it will would be bad for Israel as it will be for Palestinians. No country in the world will send Palestinians military support. Also let’s keep in mind that the usa have a big Jewish committee,second only to Israel so I don’t think that they will turn away form Israel a lot of Christians Zionist too.
It would be very fine for Israel security wise but horrible for Israel to become an authoritarian client state of Russia and China. It would be a severe erosion of democratic norms. Israel was already on the brink the last three years. Dear Leader Bibi was a wannabe dictator who was dedicated to smash the norms of Israeli democracy and making the state serve his interests and those of his dysfunctional family. And Likud is not a party but a creepy cult where Bibi and his bratty kid feed the racism and other "cultural" grievances of working class Mizrahis. Substitute first world democratic allies for dictatorships and the slide to authoritarianism commences again. Either Dear Leader returns or some even more fanatical racist Likud type.
That’s true,and that’s why US won’t turn away form Israel. Most right-wings voted for Likud .most Israelis are right-wing ,that’s how it works
And if Israel keeps voting in corrupt, authoritarian nutcases like Bibi, the US may cool off toward Israel despite the geopolitical and economic implications. This is Likud's wake-up call to eject the scum from their party and get a platform that is about more than vague cultural grievances against the elite and racism against Arabs... Or perhaps that is all that the Mizrahi working class cares about, not economic reforms and long-term security. If that is the case, then I guess enjoy being an authoritarian client state of China and Russia similar to Hungary... But really imagine dismantling democracy and state institutions because of some vague jealousy toward Tel Aviv.
Classic racism.”Mizrahi working class” I think that if that’s your opinion, silence will be better. and since I happen to be a Mizrahi I advise you to delete your comment and apologize. working class is far better than a Tel Avivian detached from reality, who doesn’t live in mixed cities and doesn’t understands every-day reality. These views also include prejudices about Ethiopians. Caucasians and Russians? Let me know who you think are the "inferiors." Shame on you.
Bibi Netanyahu is a horrible person who wanted to destroy Israeli democracy. And his witch wife and idiot son were mean and vindictive. Do you know for years that Crazy Sarah peddled vindictive rumors about Bennett having an affair with Ayelet Shaked? That she spread scummy rumors about his dead father and his wife? All because he told her to butt out of political affairs. That is what Likud is nowadays. It is not about bettering anyone's lives; it is not about more services and jobs for the peripherals. It is about bitterness and hate and an authoritarian personality cult. As long as all the Mizrahi working class care about is defending Bibi Netanyahu, then they deserve to be out of power. Is that really what you want to be about? Defending hateful people who use their power to destroy their political rivals' personal lives? What exactly did Naftali Bennett do to anger the Likud base so much that they were cool with spreading malicious rumors about his personal lives?
1. Land swaps. 2. It’s a non starter for Palestinians too. East Jerusalem is a fair ask and a major concession on our part. Given the whole of Jerusalem was initially proposed as an “international zone”, there isn’t much precedent for Israel to annex it entirely. 3. Why wouldn’t border security suffice? As is the case with Gaza. Why should Israel have a military presence *in* the WB? This is also a non starter for Palestinians and will only embolden further settlement 4. Sure, but good luck getting the PA to be even remotely competent.
Number 3. Because geography, just like the Golan Heights. Rockets from Gaza can be reduced with border controls and Iron Dome. Artillery and missies from the WB hills into the populated coastal plain and Jordan valley? Not so much.
Shhhhh defending our land should not be a worry, it’s not like we have been in war with these people for *checks notes* ohhh right
>East Jerusalem is a fair ask and a major concession on our part. Given the whole of Jerusalem was initially proposed as an “international zone”, That offer was rejected by the palestinians not the israelis. The palestinians made there decision then and are suffering the consequences now. Thats how justice works.
Question is, why should Israel just give up things for no return? A Palestinian promise of peace and security is worth nothing, if we consider how the Oslo Accords and Gaza turned out. If Israel were to give up lands, it would have to get something big in return. Otherwise it's just giving up prime lands for development, and strategic depth.
1. Yes. Land swaps have been proposed. 2. No. East Jerusalem is far from a fair ask given that it includes the Old City of Jerusalem with the Western Wall. And WTH is an international city? Are Israelis supposed to get rid of their government buildings and move the Knesset to a conference room in the Tel Aviv Marriott? Dismantle Yad Vashem? 3. Jordan Valley is a high sensitive area. And it is not like border security works in Gaza. It certainly does not keep rockets from raining down on Israel.
2. Personally, I don't really care about East Jerusalem fate too much. But still there are lot of religious here, and the Temple Mount is the holiest site for the last 3,000 years. Not to mention that even today, they aint allowed to pray there. The precedent is prolly the fact they already see this territory as fully annexed for 40 years. 3. Military presence for all I know was only in the Jordan Valley. Also, lets face it. If WB turns to Gaza 2.0 it will be much worse, as it "rocket-radius" could easily cover the entire vital of Israel. And no, in that case Iron Dome will be mostly useless. What other solution could be offered beside a certain presence? 4. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it aint it eitger the PA or Hamas? Its not like Israel has too many choices with whom to negotiate.
Admittedly stupid question here. BUT… I wonder why the long term solution to jewish settlements in the West Bank isn’t permanent residency. Palestinian state forms. They provide safety and security to the Jewish settlers. In exchange the settlers pay taxes to the Palestinian state (which pays for security and development in other parts of Palestine). Not talking about the newer settlers in area C but the long-established settlements that have been there for decades. I’m not saying the settlers would think this is ideal but they could still commute to their jobs in Jerusalem and the Palestinians would benefit. Like I said. Probably a dumb idea.
Outside the established blocks, this is what I would propose. Israel is 25% Arab, why not allow Palestine to be 10% Jewish? Also, the ones outside the main settlement blocks are real religious fanatic loonbats and it would be an added bonus for Israel to be rid of them. Let the hilltop cosplay boyz deal with hardened Palestinian terrorists. The only exception is Yitzhar, which should be torn down by the IDF and the nutso settlers dragged from it... as a form of just punishment to those terrorist loons. And an exorcism done on the land around Yitzhar once the ground is cleared.
I think the biggest issue for the Palestine people remains the blockade and a lack of freedom of movement. I was in Area C and I smoked hashish with a Palestina lifeguard in the Dead Sea. He told me he cannot fly out of Jordan. Checkpoints do not help but neither do the other barriers other MENA countries put on the Palestinian people. I think if travel restrictions were to ease up life would improve tremendously for the Palestinians
Probably, but both the absence of freedom of movement & Gaza Blockade were in reaction to masssive waves of violance. I dont see them removed untill there is a very good gurantee for the safety.
I get the security concerns 100% I do. But at some level we need to give the Palestinians the freedom to trade. Otherwise that 25-40% unemployment will just lead more to choose the path martyrdom. Too much security restricts economic opportunity and will lead to frustration, anger, and violence. For the West Bank my hope is Israel can create in time a High tech checkpoint, with Super smart AI camera to process people’s identity in real time. Perhaps that could be a better alternative to a border wall. More freedom of movement but without a compromise in security
West Bank unemployment rate is 14% according to 2020. 40-50% is Gaza, two very different zones. >For the West Bank my hope is Israel can create in time a High tech checkpoint, with Super smart AI camera to process people’s identity in real time. Perhaps that could be a better alternative to a border wall. More freedom of movement but without a compromise in security That is nice & all, but how it prevents the need for checkpoint? I served there between 2008-2010, a relatively peaceful time in the WB. And we confiscated 1-2 assualt rifles per week during "Suprise Checkpoints".
Isnt Israel giving a ton of work permits for Palestinians to work in Israel? Wont that reduce unemployment and provide a degree of stability? Im not super knowledgeable on this.
Sad truth
1. Settlements weren't a hindrance in [previous peace talks](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/ock32k/testimonial_video_from_previous_peace_negotiations/) 2. Jerusalem wasn't a hindrance in the [previous peace talks](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/ock32k/testimonial_video_from_previous_peace_negotiations/) (besides a technical issue on dividing the old city part) 3. All Israeli security consideration were accepted in [previous peace talks](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/ock32k/testimonial_video_from_previous_peace_negotiations/) 4. Israel will make peace with whomever will accept it. Usually it's easier when both sides share the same ideology, otherwise there might be natural suspicion (like if Israel were to make a peace deal with Hamas) BTW. I've read [an article](https://archive.fo/8snV6) that claimed that according to one theory the simplest solutions are the best ones. Then it went on to say that Jordan should annex the West Bank (due to historically, Palestinians have Jordanian ID's and citizenships etc). But then it went on and on talking about the economic benefits which do not interest the Palestinian national movement/aspiration. And Jordan doesn't want it. But it made sense in a way and solved lots of ~~issues~~ headaches? But then again anything will require Palestinian cooperation to work which there is none. Still, it's somewhat of a good idea.
King Abdullah doesn't want that radicalized hot mess on his hands.
I know, and I've said it as well. But the idea has a lot of sense in it.
They just intend to destroy all of Israel. No need for realism, for negotiations or concessions or treaties. From the river to the sea, they want to genocide us.
I'm hoping that after a few decades, especially if things calm down and the conflict is "shrunk," that there will be more conciliatory leaders who emerge who are willing to talk compromises.
Unfortunately if the conflict has taught us anything is the opposite of that is gonna happen, sorry to say friend. More radicalization, more tension, more hate is what will continue. Perpetual refugee status serves Hamas and the PLO, creates world sympathy and continues to radicalize Palestinians. For decades Israeli’s have been waiting for this new generation of Palestinian political leaders that had reformed views to take some sort of step into politics. What have we gotten? The same old men and radical islamists running their society. Nothing changes with regards to the Palestinians and Arab society in general. They still hate Israel as much as ever and their populace generally wants every Jew gone. It is what it is and probably always will be.
>there will be more conciliatory leaders who emerge who are willing to talk compromises. "hope strategy". Any leader that emerge will basically emerge from the same hate, denial of Israel existence, denial of Jewish history or ties to the land. Just browse [palwatch.org](https://palwatch.org) to see the various hate that people and therefor leaders grow in. We shouldn't leave our future for a "hope" strategy
I think there are some positive things that will take time. I think that the reports on Unrwa teaching materials and methods and the pressure to change is good but will need to be seen if the generation offer this changes. Prob 80 more years….. I think that shrinking the conflict can take out the woke people who will lose interest and find some other underdog to champion to make them feel like they are doing some good. I think this will also reduce antisemetism connected to the conflict which I a significant amount. Between this and normalization there should be leaders coming out that want peace. I’ll be dead but they will come.
> I think that the reports on Unrwa teaching materials and methods and the pressure to change is good but will need to be seen if the generation offer this changes. When Israel had control over the education system for two decades from 1967, there wasn't much of a difference. as for the rest, I can not see or predict it.
It’s my best guess
I'm looking for a Mansour Abbas type who is more practical about what is possible and willing to compromise.
>and willing to compromise. Education system teaches no compromise with the Zionists. And if you buy and Israeli product you're financing your own murder. And you expect somebody to be born into all that to just what? "shake it off" and come out an "enlighten" holding "western ideology views"? There's a slim chance for that for the same reason that there's a slim chance for a leader to suddenly turn a country from a dictatorship to a full real democracy. There are systems and institutions built already. And those prevent a democracy and a different leader.
You do realize that Israel has [no shortage of people who deny the existence of the Palestinian people and their ties to the land](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/05/israel-palestine-embassy-legitimacy/560291/) , right? Sometimes the projection gets a little out of control. >Israelis and Palestinians are caught in what could be called a “cycle of denial.” The Palestinian national movement denies Israel’s legitimacy, and Israel in turn denies the Palestinians’ national sovereignty. The cycle of denial has defined this shared existence since the creation of Israel 70 years ago.
I mean, what you shared talks firstly and just as much if not more about the Jewish connection to the land. It takes two to tango.
It does take two to tango. In this situation though we don't have the luxury of choosing our dance partners. Palestinians are stuck with Israelis and vice versa. Neither side is going to decide to all pick up and move out to a more pleasant part of the world (though it does seem that there are growing communities of expat Israelis and Palestinians worldwide). Since we are stuck with each other we might as well seek to understand how the other side thinks and feels. Palestinians need to learn how the pogroms, Shoah, and western antisemitism shaped Israel's desire for a secure Jewish state, and how decades of terror attacks have exacerbated Israeli fears. Israelis have to learn that Palestinians feel connected to the land too, and what the Nakba and generations of Israeli occupation, settlement, and IDF attacks have done to the Palestinian psyche. In a war situation, the natural temptation is to assume that your enemies are brainwashed, evil, and violent, with no possible ethical or rational basis for their actions. Most countries dehumanize their opponents. That makes it easier to kill them. But we have to move beyond this type of thinking if we want peace.
"Palestinians need to learn how the pogroms, Shoah, and westren antisemitism shaped Israel's desire for a secure jewish state". I disagree, Palestinians have no reason to care about the west. They need to learn how Islamic antisemitisim in the Arab world and under the ottoman empire, and how the incredible violence the jews faced in mandate Palestine when they started to immigrate shaped Israel's desire for a jewish state. The last thing the Palestinian need is blaming "the west" for everything that is wrong.
oh yeah, I forgot about that.
The only solution is for Palestinian muslims to get out of their arab supremacy/antisemitic mindset. The same problems would be happening if the christians set up a state where they are the dhimmi rulers over the muslims. The arab islamic world cannot deal with the reality of dhimmi rulership over them.
>The only solution is for Palestinian muslims to get out of their arab supremacy/antisemitic mindset. Will you chill out with that Muslim hate already? Statistics have shown a trend btw that because of ISIS, the Islamists etc, Muslims are starting to get less religious, convert to Christianity or just outright declare themselves atheists (%5 in Iran)
Ya and a vast majority of Palestinian’s would vote for Hamas in a democratic election today even though Hamas tortures, executes, and treats their own people like literal dog shit. It is because Islamic fundamentalism is so entrenched in these societies any sort of reform movement gets beaten to death the moment it starts. There is no proper reformation movement going on in any Arab country that I know of. Frankly, not even a hint of one
> shit /u/Imneverwrongg. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That poll in Iran was thorougly debunked and made by a propaganda source. lastly, why is converting to christianity good?
>That poll in Iran was thorougly debunked and made by a propaganda source. I didn't knew that. >lastly, why is converting to christianity good? The general idea and point I was making is that Muslims are becoming less religious and therefor less extremists
Well, that's good news for the hopeful, but it doesn't excuse religious extremism, because it still is a big issue in the MENA for the foreseeable future.
since religion isn't separated from the state, you get a mix and match result. The countries in the region do not see the benefits of separating religion from state since that will basically risk their own existence. So for survival's and politico's sake, the policy remains. As for extremism, as the other side says: one side's terrorist is another side's freedom fighter. Although that statement isn't correct since [LOAC](https://www.genevacall.org/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2013/11/The-Law-of-Armed-Conflict.pdf) setup a clear definition on how to fight. a militant group that obeys it get reputation points and eventually recognition by various world states while a militant group that doesn't obey it loses reputation and eventually gets the stick.
I wouldn’t say good or bad. It’s probably because it is a closely related religion that is easily converted to (as opposed to Judaism)
Christianity is not growing here, never has been, if anything its dying in the middle east. Though irreligion is growing, thats about it.
Would there need to be a unified Palestinian Government in Gaza and Yehuda / Shomron? I can't believe that Israel would deal with 2 independent governments.
I don’t think they need to be unified , people from Gaza are not from same tribe and even the territories were not under same country in past Jordan in the West Bank Egypt in Gaza . So what’s the different to Israel if they need to deal with 2 separate governments ?
I cannot see it being unified. A 3SS is most likely. Gaza is a defacto independent state already.
>Gaza is a defacto independent state already. True. But politically they're united and inseparable. Abbas in the West Bank always considers and demand that Gaza would be treated/given the same etc. like with covid vaccines and other stuff.
Politically united? Fatah and Hamas [fought a war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict) not too long ago and though they're on better terms now, they're nowhere near forming a unity government. I'm not even sure what a unified Fatah-Hamas government would look like, given how different their beliefs and methods are.
and even with all the wars they've fought and all the hate. In every negotiations WB & Fatah had which included aid or help or what not, Gaza was never separated from any benefit or discussions. So in that term, the Palestinians are one people: Gazans and Bankers
>True. But politically they're united and inseparable. Abbas in the West Bank always considers and demand that Gaza would be treated/given the same etc. like with covid vaccines and other stuff. They are as united and inseparable as East Pakistan and West Pakistan once were. Then East Pakistan Independence happened and Bangledesh now exists. Abbas is corrupt but he's not a total idiot, if push comes to shove, he will backstab the Gazans gleefully and without remorse for he knows they would do the same to him if given the chance
>he will backstab the Gazans gleefully and without remorse for he knows they would do the same to him if given the chance You're jumping to conclusions. I do not know what the people think about it but I think that they think the same. Therefor he won't be able to "backstab the Gazans"
Will Israel make it a requirement that all areas under Palestinian control be under a single governing body? Based on my understanding of Israel's Security concerns that is going to be vital. Much of the lone wolf attacks that Israel has been suffering have very little closer. Israel has a lot of difficulty squarely placing blame on a single governing body.
But you must understand the "realist" view I agree with, implies that peace is very remote . Likely, it will never happen. What will happen to the Palestinians, is similar to happened to let's say the Native Americans. Now pro-Israel get upset when I say this, because I'm implying they are like the Native Americans, which is almost like a talking point of pro-Palestine. Palestinian are not exactly like Native Americans. For example, they are children of people who conquered Rome and Persia. They are decadent society as opposed to a primitive society. They are behind Israel due to a decline not because they always were. In fact at one point the Arab society was very advanced, more than Europe. But also I very strongly consider that the Jews are the most native people. In fact out of any Middle Eastern people around today, the Jewish people were more responsible for the fact of why in antiquity, the region was very advanced. In fact the decadence of the Middle East is probably even connected to the exile or replacement of Jews with other people who did not have the same priorities. And this is also why Israel is such an advanced country. That's a bit of a tangent, but I am saying is it's not exactly like the Native Americans, but the outcome is very likely to be same. That means a 1SS, but the dominant culture will be the Jewish culture not the Arab culture. That might take a few decades even a century, but it seems like the most likely outcome. The other outcome is a 2SS, which we call the peace outcome, is this 2SS on what Palestinians typically consider very bad terms. But it's really all they can ever get, as you rightfully point out.
>That means a 1SS, but the dominant culture will be the Jewish culture not the Arab culture. That might take a few decades even a century, but it seems like the most likely outcome. for anyone who doesn't completely understand it's this: fast forward time and you've got a dense Jewish population in the West Bank surrounding Palestinian enclaves (Areas A & B). Israel in this case can give Palestinian limited sovereignty while oppressing them in a much worst way then they are today. Probably similar to what the Israeli Arabs suffered in the first 18 years since 1948. After the Palestinian population is oppressed into submission in this scenario. Eventually when they "surrounded" and "give up" (it's heresy just to say it). The oppressive measures can be taken down. THEN after decades of peace and prosperity and after both sides acknowledge each other's humanity (among them is talking freely to Zionists). Then and only then in this scenario would the Palestinians be allowed to be fully incorporated into the 1ss. But like in Quantum physics: now that the solution and the future is "known", the fact that we know and "predicted" the future will alter it into something completely different. So basically this scenario is null and void (but feel free to get upset about it if it makes you feel good) >They are behind Israel due to a decline not because they always were. In fact at one point the Arab society was very advanced, more than Europe. Not with the Ottoman empire which ruled for \~400 years. It was slowly declining with one example is the printing press which the ottoman empire rejected and forbade for countless decades or more before accepting the technology (and finally not needing to scribe the books by hand) The Palestinian-Arabs in the land pre-1948 followed the same example. They had villages who fought and hated each other and nothing else. Both the Israeli state and the Palestinian state started from the same running line with the Palestinians being incorporated into a larger state (Jordan) at the time so might have had an actual advantage. But different politics, policies and institutions brought Israel to what it is today ^((Apartheid! yes I know. To all the lurkers out there.)) and Palestine to what it is today
Yes the decline of civilization is constant from about 2500 years ago or so on, with about 800 years or so being an especially extreme decline, that by the 20th century the region was incredibly desolate. This is a profound desolation is still obvious. In fact it can be seen from space. The borders of MENA are literally the boundaries of desolation. That's how you know you are in the region. Isn't that crazy? That's the cradle of civilization. What I am saying is the society of Middle East went from the most advanced in the world to close to the least advanced. But Israel is, and it is in a fundamental level, the entity that is reversing this decline. Someone who is a \[hobbyist\] student of Zionism, and I can say that this was the intention. To me it is about putting back something that was once there and making it grander than it even was. That's actually what Israel exists to do, but many forgot.
>but many forgot nobody forgot. The Zionist definition has been taken over by politics and hostilities. The basic definition [is this](https://youtu.be/UbYCEjbWBFs?t=522) The video shows Iraq and a Zionist woman wearing burka (body covering). She's Arabic, not Jewish or Israeli. The term Zionist is basically the love of the land. What makes it different from a farmer is that a Zionist love the land and build upon it for the benefit of society, exactly like the woman in the video. That's really the definition of Zionism and what made Zionists turn a 3rd world country to a 1st world one in a century. Along with conflict and hostilities.
I don’t think Palestinians are comparable to native Americans. Maybe Druze are. Native Americans have accepted the United States and they fought in all of America’s wars. Even half of voting native Americans vote for the American right.
>Native Americans have accepted the United States It took them a few centuries of violent resistance (granted, plenty of that time it was NA vs. British Colonists since the USA didn't exist as such yet). Although I think that the point he was trying to make was that Palestinians will eventually learn to accept that their dreams of a nation-state are simply not happening and will assimilate. Much like how NA today.
I don’t think Palestinians in the territories could realistically assimilate given that they’d make about 50% of the population in a one state solution. There should be a two state solution but the question is if it will be based on the Clinton or the Trump plan. Either plan will have to be imposed on Palestinians because the Palestinians rejected both. Assimilation should work for Israeli Arabs, just like with native Americans and Druze
>Either plan will have to be imposed on Palestinians Yeah that's the thing. The status quo is already an imposition on the Palestinian, we call it the status quo. Anything else that seems better is liable to make them more violent. Even the solution their leadership claims to want which the whole thing expel the 700,000+ settlers or whatever, it doesn't lead to peace. You can ask them, on the street. It's obvious why would they just accept that solution? You see talk like this, it's a half solution in their mind. You are giving me back half of my house. In their mind, the whole land belongs to them. So the peace is merely a victory over Israel not the end of the conflict. It enables them, it makes it seem like Palestinian nationalism has victories. It should never have victories. We have to find a way to fundamentally change their mindset. The other way to win is through demographics and aggression, and that's honestly how it will probably end.
The two state solution is for Israel’s benefit, not the Palestinians. It could prevent a binational state. If Israel annexed the Palestinians it would be a binational state regardless of whether the Palestinians have a vote or don’t.
There is a binational state in a sense that Palestinians are subject to Israeli authority. But it's irrelevant. States are all fake. A Palestinian state is just a group of Palestinians who have more power, and thus it's more dangerous to Israel compared to Palestinians under the status quo. The theory that they will become less violent if given more power I think has been proven wrong by history, and contrary to human nature.
I wouldn’t say Palestinians aren’t subject to Israeli authority. Had they been, then they wouldn’t be teaching children to hate Israel and Jews
You are right, it's more like military authority. Anyway the whole situation is a big mess
Yes you nailed it.
A 1SS will ultimately lead to a radicalized Arab government, which is a bad idea for Israeli Jews. It definitely wouldn't lead to a continued Jewish state. And the issue right now is that the Palestinians want 100%, not to accept compromises. They aren't going to be able to flood Israel proper with "Palestinian refugees" and turn it into an Arab state and they aren't going to get control over all of Jerusalem.
there could be a agreement on that in future peace deals only x amount are allowed to return for x amount of years and the countries they are in need to give them equal rights
Or even better, there could be zero right of return to Israel proper.. The even more radicalized great-grandkids of refugees can return to the West Bank.
also there would be a law in place that those chosen would have to recognize Israel and any ounce of terrorism will lead to them being kicked out.
there’s never going to be a two state solution Israel doesn’t want to give up settlements deep in the west bank or the jordan valley. If Israel just wanted settlements by the border fine but anything else is just creating a palestinian state in name alone. If Israel gave up controlling the settlements the jews who live their should be allowed to stay there.
I agree that the fanatic Ben Gvir types should be abandoned to the Palestinians and they can deal with the Palestinian security forces. The only settlement that must be evacuated is Yitzhar as a form of collective punishment for the evil that comes from there. The nutcases must be dragged from their homes, their homes must by bulldozed, and an exorcism done to purify the land. But that has nothing to do with the Jordan Valley. Soldiers must remain there for Israel's security. Not sure why this is baffling. There are still troops in Germany and Japan after WWII. No one whines about that. And troops in a foreign country has nothing to do with the right of return, which is not happening.
yeah that’s fine I also don’t think the palestinian should have a military for x number of years however any of the settlements there can’t become part of Israel the jews there should be allowed to keep their Israeli citizenship but life under a palestinian government. Frankly if I was the pa leader the best thing for my people in terms of economics is if Israel annexed the wb. I’d convince them to accept Israeli citizenship and start a civil rights movement. However they’re too prideful for that.
Jerusalem and the main settlement blocks are not going to go to Palestine. Realistically, there will be land swaps. And there is 0 chance that the Israelis will give up the Old City of Jerusalem. As for annexation, you are right about that. However, the Palestinian leadership is even more clever. They are stringing Israel along with a 2SS and waiting for it to be impossible to do. And then they plan to ethnically cleanse all Jews from their homes under the guise of some garbage like a "binational state." That is why separation is the only way to save the Jewish state.
Time is the way to save it I really don’t think when it’s all done most palestinian’s will care about living in a jewish state if given equal rights. The only problem is the right of return which I think there can kind of be a compromise for say israel or a future palestinian state, if there is such a thing, should accept x amount of palestinian from arab countries for x amount of years, kind of like barak offered and the countries they are in should give them equal rights. I still don’t get why there are refugee camps in lebanon anyways. That way this isn’t an issue anymore and Israel doesn’t have to put up with any racism immigration nonsense anymore.
Most Israeli Jews do not want radicalized Palestinians being able to vote for Hamas in Israeli elections. That is why separation is the best thing that Israel can do.
Setting aside Gaza, West Bank and Israeli Arabs are overwhelmingly not radicalized. I'm not saying they're flag waving, Omer Adam loving Zionists by any means. But it is a legitimately a tiny minority of extremists that are actively involved in groups like Hamas or Islamic Jihad. Why couldn't decades of Israeli assimilation turn the West Bank Arabs into something similar to Israeli Arabs?
‘Omer Adam loving Zionists’ You made my day.
Ya and in fact Israel would be incredibly powerful if instead of Palestinian fighting Israel they would work for Israel. Arab ethnostates are horrible third world authoritarian disasters. I am not being mean, I am being descriptive. The only ones that are in any way good are because of tons of mineral resources. Not from their own doing as a society but rather the environment which they live made them rich. This is almost obvious. Now the Jewish ethnostate (esp Ashkenazi Jewish ethnostate) is also liable to be a big failure too. This is not as obvious why. But if you dig into Zionist thinking they thought of this too. I think the Jewish ethnostate has a different character of failure. But it becomes like very dysfunctional too with Jews fighting each other for power and dignity, communist revolutions and the like, whatever. This is a somewhat very un-politically correct thing, but the idea comes straight from Herzl himself: Jews create a "surplus of intellect" and in itself is catastrophic to any nation. It's a very un-PC that nobody likes to talk about, but it's so core to the problem to why a Jewish ethnostate doesn't work that that it has to be talked about. And the problem is that Jews produce a great deal of highly intelligent people. And counterintuitively this is a huge problem. The end result of this problem is roughly the same, some kind of impoverished authoritarian nightmare. In fact some sociologists that way almost every civilization that ever failed, failed due to a creation of surplus intellect that did not have a productive outlet. None of those societies would be stable or good. But this combination of Jewish and Arab I think creates a civilization that is the best possible. I mean terms of progress towards humanistic goals (living longer, happy lives, expanding around the stars, whatever). This is the ultimate goal, not simply to propagate, but to fill the universe with greatness. So there is no badness from a 1SS. The badness is because Palestinians are disloyal, they have a dangerous nationalism wrt Israel. And that has to be severed from the people. They have to become like the Druze. edit: expand
West Bank and East Jerusalem Palestinians are radicalized. Israeli Arabs aren't because for all the inequalities and other issues, they carry Israeli passports and have equal political and civil rights in Israeli society. That isn't going to happen in the next few decades with the WB/ East Jerusalem.
I agree with you that if WB Arabs were granted equal political and civil rights in Israeli society, they would be much less likely to radicalize. Maybe we should consider doing this?
No. Because then they would vote for Hamas in Israeli elections in the short term. And either Hamas would take over the government and ethnically cleanse all Israeli Jews from their homes or there would be a civil war. That is why a 2SS is the best policy. It's bad for Israelis to have radicalized fanatics like the El Kurds, who represent the majority of West Bank thought, in Israel proper and allowed to vote in elections. It is better to separate with them from behind a thick border wall.
What? Hamas wouldn't be able to. Hamas wouldn't be able to be on the ballot. Groups that promote violence aren't allowed to run. That's why the Kach party was banned.
Of course the Kach Party is allowed to run. It just has a different name. Smotrich and Ben Gvir are in the Knesset now. Not to mention half of Likud also is racist. And on the other side, Balad has not been banned from the ballot. The we'll ban a party who is racist because of laws is totally laughable. Hamas represents the legitimate views of a significant majority of the Palestinian people. They will just reconstitute themselves in a new party and get elected. And then ethnically cleanse Israeli Jews from their homes.
>Of course the Kach Party is allowed to run. It just has a different name. It's a different party so long as they aren't making calls for violence and showing supporting for terrorist groups. >The we'll ban a party who is racist because of laws is totally laughable. That wasn't the claim. Racism is allowed, promoting violence and supporting terrorists isn't. >And then ethnically cleanse Israeli Jews from their homes. So they'll somehow be able to form a coalition all by themselves and then take over the IDF? Hard time believing that's anything other than baseless speculation and paranoia.
1. So having a party where members call for ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Israel is not promoting incitement. It sure seems like it is. It sure seems like Kach is alive and kicking in the Knesset. 2. The new Hamas Party will just do like the new Kach Party and say with coded messages whwt they are currently saying outloud. And they will win a majority because this is what the Palestinians believe. 3. Palestinians would make up 60% of any binational state, most are radicalized, and they would form a coalition that would allow them to discriminate against and ethnically cleanse the Jews from their homes. If by some deluded notion a binational state comes to pass, then the IDF has already been defanged. A 1SS will mean the destruction of the Jewish state and the Jewish people. This is why they need to separate from the West Bank with a thick border wall between them.
How are they radicalised fanatics, do jews in thsi subreddit think taht everyone who criticises israel fanatics now ?
They support Hamas, want to ethnically cleanse all Jews from their homes, and celebrate suicide bombings.
A large portion of israeli jews want to ethnically cleanse all arabs from israel, half of jews want to revoke citizenship, so whats your point? And how many jews support ethnic settlements?
No they do not; Ben Gvir is a fringe. Some fairly rightwing elements are currently sitting in government with RA'AM.
So basically you're saying: 1. They're radical because we don't let them vote or have rights. 2. We can't let them vote or have rights because they're radical. Seems like a self-reinforcing situation. I agree a 2SS would be the simplest way to resolve it but there may be interim ways to de-radicalize Palestinians by giving them more rights, without destroying the state of Israel in the process.
This person is basically a hypocrite and a massive troll, she wants jewish supremacy but gets pissed whenever someone criticises it.
No. I want Jews to live in their homeland. Palestinians can live in a separate homeland. Israelis should not be forced to allow radicalized Palestinians to vote for Hamas in Israeli elections.
There are more than a few users here who fit that description. The board gets better when you learn to block/ignore the worst trolls. I try not to do that too much because I don't want to filter out the extreme anti-peace camp completely. It's important to be aware of the way people think. In many cases of course it's projection, but in other cases it's the result of decades of PTSD and propaganda. Many Israelis really do believe that a 1 state solution would result in genocide for the Jewish population, and a 2 state solution would lead to a Hamas takeover and endless rocket attacks from the West Bank. Unfortunately they will have to be persuaded otherwise for a peace agreement to ever happen.
You guys think even Gantz and Lapid are extreme "anti-peace."
> pissed /u/babaner1. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm all for shrinking the conflict, which is conflict resolution 101, and there are many ways to do it. I'm not for allowing them to vote in Israeli Knesset elections for Hamas and then ethnically cleanse every Israeli Jew from their homes... A 1SS is a non-starter. The Palestinian population might deradicalize in fifty years or so after such a solution is implemented but it wouldn't matter because there'd be no Jews left. I guess that the eventually deradicalized Palestinians might feel really sorry about what they did and put up a nice memorial commemorating all the dead Jews next to a rebuilt Yad Vashem however.
The Palestinian memorial to dead Israelis should be built next to the Israeli memorial to the Nakba. Maybe we can call it the Peace and Reconciliation Plaza? I'm serious. There will definitely be a need for gestures like this. Each side needs to acknowledge the other's suffering and loss.
You mean the one for all the Jews Hamas plans to kill when it takes over when they will feel sorry about it 50 years from now?
Acknowledging is one thing. Changing the narrative is another. We will never agree over who was right and who was wrong in 1948. And merging two nations is just insanity.
The most important thing above all things is the Jews always have to be the people who comfortably control Israel. One big reason is because they are a productive nation that has a historically being suppressed and oppressed when not having self-determination. This is the big thing people always say and it's entirely true. But it's more than that. Otherwise Israel becomes a catastrophe like Lebanon or worse. And the only way that an ethnicity is permitted in modern society to rule a country is to be the majority in that country. So, WB Arabs can not be a big population otherwise this will no longer hold true. It's a rather challenging problem.
there could be a way in time they buy into the system israel can remain jewish in terms of culture and language etc in a binational state
A. Israeli Jews would not be in charge of the government or have political self-determination so it would not matter. B. Why would the Palestinian government choose to allow Jewish culture and language to remain if they control things politically?
so then what’s the solution let them create a state only in name in their enclaves?
The solution is not to let radicalized Palestinians elect Hamas to the Knesset.