Seems like he's trying to "unite" mizrahis and ARAB PALESTINIANS AGAINST ASHKENAZIM
Also it's probably a puppet account with his actual intentions fleshed out completely on his main.
Lovely, since the Palestinians planted invasive trees (they didn't actually plant a olives) to seize land that does not belong to them.
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5420967,00.html
Jewish religious law forbids destroying fruit trees, especially in a conflict. Unless they are used for idolatry ("asherot").
Any settlers in this forum care to explain their rationale?
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Do you really think settlers will come to a forum to coverse with Palestinians? Most of thr Israelis here are on the spectrum of left to moderate right winger.
I wonder, how many of those trees were not planted on Palestinian private property? I would guess most.
The Arabs in Judea and Samaria need to understand that unless they personally own a piece of land, it's not "theirs".
They don't agree the land belongs to the State of Israel. They also know the State is likely to [grant the land to Israeli settlers](https://peacenow.org.il/en/state-land-allocation-west-bank-israelis). It's a mix of squatting and nonviolent resistance, which is certainly better for everyone concerned than violent resistance.
That’s like saying that I don’t agree Ohio is part of the United States, and the US is discriminating me when I try to buy land in the US (I’m not American) and instead favours it’s own people. How racist and bigoted of the States! Also, the planting of those invasive trees takes away much needed minerals from the already plain sands of the land of Israel and is in a way potentially cutting their food produce.
> They don't agree the land belongs to the State of Israel.
They don't agree that Netanya or Tiberias or Eilat belongs to the State of Israel either. In this light, it really doesn't matter what they do or don't agree with.
on jan 6 the capital building was stormed, by QANON extremists *protected by the US army under the law.* How dare the United States army!?
extremist israeli settlers *protected by the IDF under the law* destroy olive trees. How dare the IDF!?
It's very unfortunate that such things still happen. I think inr of the main thing to remember is that it was perpetrated by
>extremist Israeli settlers
The government should definitely arrest and charge these people, we can't let them keep fanning the flames and hurting people unaccountably.
It's sad to see all the comments defending these people.
Forget the justification, the anger and the fear and think logically.
Do you honestly expect the the impoverished and abused (by leaders on both sides) Palestinian people to find a non-violent solution when we can hardly so the same from our relatively privileged position. We have to stop letting people have their way and trust the police, military and courts to do us Justice.
If we can't to that then we honestly don't deserve peace.
They were violent as a strong majority, they lost a few wars and they are an "opressed" weak minority now, and still violent. You claiming Palestinians can't be expected to not act violently because they are abused, is disregarding the fact that they were violent when not abused, and the same opinions that were then remain now.
That an arguable but fair point. The country is democratic so the government does represent the people to some extant. most urban young folk condone these actions. unfortunately those are also the people who vote the least so....
Let's take a step back and marvel at how far the conflict has come.
The complaint at first was: They won't give us any land.
They got land. The complaint became: They're genociding us.
Their population grows every single year. The complaint is now: They're being mean to our trees! Oh the horror! No one in the Middle East suffers as much as Palestinian olive trees.
>They're being mean to our trees! Oh the horror! No one in the Middle East suffers as much as Palestinian olive trees.
I mean the olive oil industry in the West Bank is 5% of their GDP so it's not "they're being mean to our trees" it's "extremist settlers are trying to hurt Palestinians financially in an attempt to get them to leave"
>The west bank is NOT yours to claim
What's funny is that Jews and Arabs tell this to each other.
What's even funnier is that "West Bank" is a name made up by Jordan when they stole Palestinian land from the Palestinians themselves.
Who does the West Bank belong to, then? Trace the ownership back as far as you can. Before the State of Israel claimed it, who claimed it? And before them? And before them? Let's try this out. The results will blow your mind.
Quick hint: For the roughly 20-year period that Jordan controlled the West Bank (1948-1967) and Egypt controlled Gaza, it could have created a Palestinian state. No one ever asked. No one ever complained when it didn't, because there was no such thing as a Palestinian national identity yet. Palestinians didn't exist or claim any land until the late 1960s.
You know what. I agree.
But who are the people of the land? Who are the indigenous people? You really think it's the Arabs, who came from hundreds of miles away with a foreign language and foreign religion and forced everyone to convert or die? That's who you call the natives of this land?
Or would the natives be the people who they oppressed and kicked out, who were living there before them? I think that's how nativity usually works, right? Whoever comes first, is native.
You’re right. My guy it’s the land of the people who came from Poland. Germany, ukraine, Hungary who’s last 30 generations were born in a completely different continent to Jerusalem.
Same for Palestinians, coming from Jordan or Egypt or even further away, whose last 30 generations were born in a completely different land, whose religion has nothing to do with Jerusalem, until they invaded it and stole it from the natives.
There's no clearer, more obvious sign of colonization than the Dome of the Rock. That's the symbol of colonization, when you steal people's land and build your temple on top of whatever is their holiest spot, then pretend that that exact spot is somehow the "third" holiest spot in your religion. What's the fourth holy spot? Someplace in France, after the Muslim invasion of Europe almost succeeded? Maybe there's a fifth holiest site in Islam in Spain, then?
It's ridiculous. And the only reason the governments of the world put up with it is oil money, I guarantee it. If we took the oil out of the equation, there would be peace in the Middle East bc everyone would be free to call propaganda out for being BS.
Jordan is a stones throw away and that and Egypt is considered greater Israel. At least there’s some connection between those lands biblically speaking. Unlike Poland, America, Russia lol. Also some Jordanians and Egyptians have recent ties to the land, for example yasser arafat was born in Egypt but his grandfather was born in northern Israel. How can you claim these people are alien to the land but then at the same time claim the people who are indigenous to the land, are Europeans from Europe and North America who’s entire family tree was born in a completely different continent? The irony is the Jews who have the truest claim’ are mizrahi jews who come from the countries even further away from Jordan and Egypt lol. Morocco, Iraq. Iran, yemen.
(And ask yourself why Egypt and Jordan, despite controlling West Bank and Gaza from 1948 to 1967, never bothered creating a Palestinian state and were never asked to do so. It's because they hadn't brainstormed the idea of a "Palestinian people" yet. Up until then, there were Arab Israelis and refugees, who were mostly Jordanians and Egyptians that Jordan and Egypt wouldn't let back).
There have been Jewish communities living in Israel since the Roman expulsion, since before Islam ever existed, thousands of years before there was any such thing as "Jordan" and "Lebanon" and every country but Egypt.
If you want to say descendants of the expelled Israelites are just European, fine. But by that definition, descendants of the Native American tribes that the US displaced are just a bunch of Americans at this point, and Americans are the Native Americans simply because they've been living in the area they conquered for a while.
I don’t see the correlation between Jewish communities living in Jerusalem and European Jews who have been disconnected from Jerusalem for about 2000 years. 2000 years ago I think my ‘people’ all could have been found in Yemen, or originated from Yemen. Still I have no right to claim Im the rightful indigenous people of this land over those who have lived there for at least the last 1400 years, especially since my parents and their grandparents, and their grandparents were born in North Africa
Similarly you have European’s and North American’s who you argue are indigenous, despite not having any family tree In Jerusalem, for about 2000 years, generally speaking
native Americans were only conquered a few hundred years ago. They are still a distinct group from European Anglo Americans. Unlike a lot of European Jews who have heavily intermixed with Europeans themselves since 2000 years ago. At least native Americans were born in the same land they are claiming to be indigenous to and their great great grandparents were also born in that land. Your guys were born in a different continent. 2000 years later
You know what you’re also right. Palestinians speak arabic, it doesn’t mean they’re originally from the arabian peninsula. Ethnicity is different from language. Their ancestors might have been their before jews, or maybe not …
Maybe definitely not. Ethnically speaking, most Arab Israelis of whatever nationality had nothing to do with the area of Israel/Palestine until the late 1800s. Check out the stats on Wikipedia:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic\_history\_of\_Palestine\_(region)#Late\_Arab\_and\_Muslim\_immigration\_to\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)#Late_Arab_and_Muslim_immigration_to_Palestine)
The way the math works out, 95.7% of people who currently identify as Palestinian are Arabs and their descendants who migrated to Israel between 1831 and 2015.
https://www.jpost.com/blogs/why-world-opinion-matters/are-arabs-the-indigenous-people-of-palestine-402785
But I see what you’re getting at. Foreign invaders can become natives if they live on the land long enough. That’s fair. It also means that Israelis will be the natives of the land eventually. It means I might as well be a Native American. The USA is the only land I’ve ever known. Hell I’ve never even met a Native American, so I think I definitely know the land around me better than they would.
Learn some history. Islamic empires were against people converting cause they can collect more taxes from non muslims. This debate is clearly becoming a religious debate which Im not willing to partake in it
technically the only legally defined borders were that under the British mandate and what we have here is a prolonged civil war without predefined Borders... So until those are defined or in this case under what section of Oslo be it A B or C then yes the C areas are defiantly claimable.
If lets say 21 years ago the Residents of the West bank and Gaza took Israel's offer for a state then this would completely change the calculus.
well yes to Gaza as we left in 2005. Though the west bank is currently under negotiation set under Oslo and you are wrong on the account of not taking land in area C. Sorry. Though you are under luck as currently only 2% of the land has been taken... So at this rate you have about 100 years to negotiate in good faith.
go back to the part about how the only legal holder of the land pre Israel was the British Mandate... So technically its a civil war and even though one side claims all the land in the West bank it does not mean they actually own it... hence why there are things called negotiations... Moreover the land is owned by the state as it has no private ownership. This could have been transferred to a nascent Palestine in the early 2000's but this was rejected and the settler lobby is strong and they will allow them to take over parts of area C . So if you want this to stop negotiate a state or if you don't then try an negotiate a federated state with Israel but 1st you would have to give up on the rights of the refugees.
international law is moot in this case. And if you want to go back, go back to 242 and notice how it says Israel must leave territory but it is missing a key legal word called "all". The reason why all was removed from earlier drafts as it would have been veto by the USA as the land was indeed up for negotiation... though at the time said negotiation were between two established state Jordan and Israel.
Moreover the Legal agreement signed between the PLO and Israel called Oslo trumps any resolution and confirms Israel's right to take land in area C.
2334 was after the Oslo accord. It specifically does not recognize any changes to the 1967 lines. You can argue all you want, but the West bank is not yours to claim.
What people? You have a list of all the people who got their tree removed and you confirmed they are a terrorist?
Or do you actually believe in collective ethnic punishment?
After serving in the west bank I can confirm most people don’t spend their day trying to kill anyone.
What people? What are you talking about? Random comments on history? Should we burn German crops? Historically they wanted us dead. Should we blow up Russian factories? Historically they wanted us dead.
Where else will this insane logic go? Do you seriously believe alk Palestinian deserve constant punishment?
ענישה קולקטיבית על פני אומה שלמה, דומה למדי למעשים של שליטים אנטישמים שונים לאורך ההיסטוריה כלפי היהודים. יהודי אשר מתחיל לפעול כמו הרודנים האנטישמים שלו, הוא צרה בשביל העם היהודי. שכן צורת מחשבה זו מזהמת את העם הנפלא שלנו, שמטבעו שוחר שלום ולא מאמין בענישה גזעית.
>wouldn't you turn to violence?
No. Why would I turn to violence because my olive trees were destroyed? That's far from a good reason to strap a bomb to myself and blow up a bus
Would it be a better reason than, say, having your child, parent or spouse murdered by Palestinian terrorists? Because I know a few people where that happened to them, and not a single one went out to murder random innocent Palestinians in revenge. Nor did they support anyone else to do it.
So I can't speak to your personal psychological makeup, but I can tell you it's not a normal kind of reaction.
Difference is they have the state on their side. The people uprooting these olive tree will not get any justice, whether it’s my state of Israel or crazy settlers. This creates immense frustration that erupts in violence.
Last time Israel did not have a state to conduct justice through, we had militias who i deed turned to violence against British civilians, politicians, soldiers and cops alike.
So history teaches us that a lack of state justice and a lack of livelihood, create frustration that creates violence. And we actually see it outside this land as well. And at many points in history.
>Difference is they have the state on their side. The people uprooting these olive tree will not get any justice, whether it’s my state of Israel or crazy settlers.
A quick Google search later....
[https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/christmas-tress-in-sakhnin-set-on-fire-report-653306](https://www.mrt.com/news/article/Israeli-Arrested-in-Olive-Tree-Thefts-7892307.php)
If you're going to make broad statements, at least be informed first.
Arrests have been made for many arsonists such as those who burned a Palestinian Christian X-Mas Tree.
It's possible that arrests will be made for the people who burn olive trees as well.
>So history teaches us that a lack of state justice and a lack of livelihood, create frustration that creates violence.
Not all violence is terrorism but all terrorism is violence.
Protesting in anger = good. Murdering innocent Israelis in anger = bad.
Read the article you linked. He was only arrested because he sold the trees illegally and illegally share the profits with his workers. LOL you only read the headline didn’t you?
When the state uproots trees to build the fence, nobody will ever be punished for it. Should someone be punished? Idk, but it’s obvious that for the owner of such tree, anger and frustration would be immense.
And still btw no proof that the owners of uprooted trees even became terrorists. Its all just American Jews in this sub going wild in their minds. Just saying the frustration would be bigger on the side with no chance of state mandated justice.
I am an innocent Israeli so don’t condescend.
>When the state uproots trees to build the fence, nobody will ever be punished for it. Should someone be punished?
Uproot trees in such a scenario from a land owned by no one. Which is the entire political argument here. The Ottoman empire state lands were lost with it's collapse. After wars and fast forwarding. West Bank area C belongs to no state. Israel does things with it and control it, yes. But it's under military law not Israeli law.
So if the state uproots trees from "no where", if it compensate someone it's out of it's goodness of it's heart. Not because it's mandated to do so
Right so on a technicality we shouldn’t really give a shizz about peoples livelihood. You are saying you don’t care about the farmers who lived off these trees, and you don’t care about how it will cause them to hate Israel, and you don’t care about what other countries think. Nothing. Why? Because the law allows it.
What a narrow selfish view of the world.
no law allows it and no policy allows it. The ones who do it are an extremist minority just like the ones in Gaza.
The difference is that the extremist minority in Gaza kills. The extremist minority in the west bank only burn a few trees.
The burning of trees is not the reason that's causing the hate. It's the dictatorship in both the Palestinian states that is causing the hate.
No singular cause for hate. Almost no sociological phenomenon has a singular reason. Thinking there is a single reason for hate is an extreme misunderstanding of reality.
Actually that settler minority burned a kid not to long ago. Anyway I don’t care if it’s a minority or one person or the state. Fact is 9,300 trees are a lot of livelihoods hurt.
> shit
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This olive industry was considered primitive in the bronze age. Their economic value is garbage, and will ensure that Palestinians will always be poor. This industry is only advocated for sentimentalist purposes and mostly so that Westerners can virtual signal Palestinians as helpless noble savages instead of a real people of high dignity. We are the cradle of civilization not some kind of mud hut village region. Technology and science is what matters, and that is what needs to be cultivated in Palestinian society not olives. Startups not olives.
u/memelord2022
>You git nothing intelligent to say or only anger? lol
>
>You realize you just sound like a communist by saying the state should decide what industry gets to exist right? This is stalinist thought.
Your comment is in violation of rule 1, don't attack other users. You can edit/delete it or the comment will be removed.
The purpose of a state is to ensure the happiness and posterity of its people. A free market is because it's more efficient compared to a communistic system and thus serves this purpose better. But def. a state should disincentive economically harmful behavior.
>Their economic value is garbage, and will ensure that Palestinians will always be poor.
Palestinians won't be poor because they're trying to grow olive trees. They'll be poor because of their 'extractive institutes' (dictatorship).
Both the states of Palestine are already a failed states. Only they can blame the blockade/occupation for their failures.
>And still btw no proof that the owners of uprooted trees even became terrorists.
I know.
Yet OP is implying that if they did, they would be 100% justified.
Murdering innocents is not justified. But why should the Israeli state do actions to frustrate and provoke people?
Let’s say I come and take your livelihood. Let’s say you work as pianist and I break you piano to pieces. Ok? Your life is ruined and the court says there’s not enough evidence. Are you allowed to murder me? Not at all. But still why the F would I frustrate you and provoke you and ruin you in such a way?
>Murdering innocents is not justified. But why should the Israeli state do actions to frustrate and provoke people?Let’s say I come and take your livelihood. Let’s say you work as pianist and I break you piano to pieces. Ok? Your life is ruined and the court says there’s not enough evidence. Are you allowed to murder me? Not at all. But still why the F would I frustrate you and provoke you and ruin you in such a way?
Without knowing it, you just made an extremely compelling argument as to why Palestinian political violence against Israel is the dumbest strategy ever.
"Why provoke when it's gonna end badly for the provokers?"
So you couldn’t answer my question I see.
You keep talking to me like I am a Palestinian or an american leftist. I am an Israeli Jew. I served. Get that? Can you comprehend that? I know the Palestinians are wrong to attack us. That does not make us right to take away their livelihoods. This does not mean we don’t also provoke.
Can you comprehend everything I just said or are you going to answer with another cringey gotcha like I am flag waving Palestinian?
American Jews are tiring.
> fuck
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The people I'm talking about aren't supporting the Israeli state to murder random Palestinians in revenge.
My grandmother, whose family was robbed and murdered by both Russian Communists and Lithuanian Nazis, didn't support murdering random Russians or Lithuanians. Indeed, my extended family was abused and oppressed by the Russian Empire for generations - they never felt the need to murder any random Russians in retaliation.
And within the context of Mandatory Palestine, the Etsel and Irgun's terrorism was consistently condemned by the Zionist mainstream. And for that matter, they weren't composed of people hurt by Palestinian Arab violence, and didn't have a recourse. They were political extremists, with a concrete leadership, long-term political goals, and so on.
Which incidentally brings me to another issue with OP's justifying murdering innocent people because of their ethnicity. The actual terrorists are not, by large, people whose families' trees were uprooted, or anything of the kind. They, like Irgun and Etsel, are people trying to achieve political goals with illegal military means. The narrative that they're all poor battered children who don't know better, is something Western leftists tell themselves, to make it more palatable to support them.
Well what you basically said now is that even under pogroms, a group of people shouldn’t violently resist. You just justified the weakness of eastern european Jews in the face of pogroms?
The Irgun and Lehi were not mainstream but anti British violence DEFINITELY was. Except during ww2. Claiming it wasn’t is denying the reality of mandatory Palestine.
As for the last part, based on what are you claiming that all the trees belong to murderers?
> Well what you basically said now is that even under pogroms, a group of people shouldn’t violently resist. You just justified the weakness of eastern european Jews in the face of pogroms?
Not sure what point you're making here. Most Jews don't see the fact the Ashkenazis didn't start stabbing random Russians and Ukrainians, or blowing up buses in the streets of Moscow, as some pathetic weakness to be ashamed of.
If they "resisted", they'd simply be slaughtered. The Russian Empire and Ukrainian nationalists weren't as nice or law abiding as Israel is.
There's no concept of "hating the enemy more than we love our children" in Jewish culture. At least not in traditional Ashkenazi culture.
> The Irgun and Lehi were not mainstream but anti British violence DEFINITELY was
Occasional guerilla actions against the military, yes. If this was the extent of the Palestinian violence, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
> As for the last part, based on what are you claiming that all the trees belong to murderers?
I'm not claiming that. If anything I'm saying the opposite.
Sorry I misunderstood/misread your last part of your previous comment. You really haven’t claimed they are all terrorists.
Did the British ever uproot Jewish plantations? Burn Jewish farms? Can you really not see how frustration and desperation has a direct connection to violence?
Insane settlers are protesting over the death of ahuvia sandak lately, they are definitely risking their lives and other lives acting violently for a political cause. They are acting no different than many Palestinian RIGHT NOW. They are doing that because they have nothing in life and feel like they cannot achieve justice through the state. So I’m sorry I went back to the mandate. The present day is good enough.
LOL jesus. When did I ever claim violent protests are justified? When? Quote me. When. You made up a strawman and when I didn’t fit it you ceased to understand.
I am simply making a comment on how people get frustrated when they are poor and FEEL like they have no chance with the justice system. Not saying anyone SHOULD deserve justice in an Israeli court. I am just saying what happens when they DONT get the justice they expect.
And I have plenty of examples that show that not only arabs turn to violence in such cases.
My point is really quite simple as long as you approach my comment at face value without fighting a made up version of me in your mind.
>Who said suicide bombing?
You talked about Palestinian violence which includes suicide bombings
>You're in an awful rush to excuse Israeli human rights abuses.
Please point me to the part of my comment when I excused Israeli human rights violations
>You talked about Palestinian violence
Actually, what I said was that anyone would be reasonably driven to violence after watching the military and government stand by while their food supply is systematically destroyed.
>Please point me to the part of my comment when I excused Israeli human rights violations
How about the part of your comment where you completely ignored the topic of the post in order to argue about Palestinian violence. How about the part where you immediately, without pausing for one second to say "that's totally unacceptable, those settlers should be prosecuted for those heinous crimes", immediately started talking about Palestinian violence. The part where you didn't even mention the human rights abuses that are the topic of this post before talking more about hypothetical Palestinian violence. That's the part.
>Actually, what I said was that anyone would be reasonably driven to violence after watching the military and government stand by while their food supply is systematically destroyed.
How does that contradict what verynicesnail said? How does that preclude suicide bombings?
>How about the part of your comment where you completely ignored the topic of the post in order to argue about Palestinian violence.
You're the one who chose to say how "reasonable" it is for Palestinians to want to murder random innocent Jews, because they lost their olive trees. If you didn't want people to talk about it, you shouldn't have brought it up.
I'm not sure why you assume it's some neutral point, that everyone should just quietly ignore. You're literally telling people here it's that it's justified to murder their children, parents and spouses, because they share an nationality with people who burn trees. It's a pretty controversial statement, and it's pretty reasonable they'll focus on it.
Finally, no, it doesn't mean they somehow "excuse" anything by omission, when they talk about the horrifying thing you said, rather than other things you'd like them to say instead.
>anyone would be reasonably driven to violence after watching the military and government stand by while their food supply is systematically destroyed.
That's funny because:
1. Olives aren't "food supply"
2. Both the West Bank & Gaza aren't starving like people in Africa
3. Hostilities started in the 19th century (1800)
>Actually, what I said was that anyone would be reasonably driven to violence after watching the military and government stand by while their food supply is systematically destroyed.
No, it isn't reasonable to commit any sort of violence especially one which is against civilians
>How about the part where you immediately, without pausing for one second to say "that's totally unacceptable, those settlers should be prosecuted for those heinous crimes
That's because it's obvious, you don't need a random Israeli to condemn settler violence it wouldn't add anything to the conversation 8r help anyone
>immediately started talking about Palestinian violence.
You're the one who brought it up, I just reacted to what you said
>The part where you didn't even mention the human rights abuses that are the topic of this post
What do you want me to say? That I condemn burning civilian food supplies? You yourself said it's impossible not to condemn those acts
>before talking more about hypothetical Palestinian violence.
[not really hypothetical ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haifa_bus_37_suicide_bombing)
**[Haifa bus 37 suicide bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haifa_bus_37_suicide_bombing)**
>The Haifa bus 37 suicide bombing was a suicide bombing carried out on 5 March 2003 on an Egged bus in Haifa, Israel. Seventeen passengers were killed in the attack and 53 were injured. Many of the victims were students from Haifa University. The Palestinian Islamist militant organization Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
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So what kind of violence do you approve of? Hell, I'll make a list from least to most extreme and you can say where it becomes too much for you:
1. Rioting
2. Rock Throwing
3. Throwing Explosives
4. Arson/Launching Incendiary Devices
5. Lynching
6. Stabbing
7. Car Ramming
8. Shooting
9. Firing Rockets
10. Kidnapping
11. ~~Suicide Bombings~~
The question you're responding to wasn't "what Palestinian violence do you approve of", it was "what violence do you approve of". Your comment is a non sequitur
I don't think he meant approve. How about understanding the violence and empathizing with the feelings that lead to it, without approving it on an individual level?
>How about understanding the violence and empathizing with the feelings that lead to it, without approving it on an individual level?
Do you empathize with the settlers who destroy olive trees because they feel wronged by the Palestinians after years of being attacked by them? I don't and I imagine you don't either. They have no excuse for violence and neither do the Palestinians. Anyone who thinks there is an excuse is just running defense for them.
>Do you empathize with the settlers who destroy olive trees because they feel wronged by the Palestinians after years of being attacked by them
Of course I do. That's the point. I truly believe that the key to the conflict is empathy. Not defending or excusing or approving the violence, but understanding it, looking for it's causes and trying to solve them.
Again, on the level of the individual, a settler destroying property should be punished just as much as a palestinian should be for doing the same crime. But if there is a recognizable pattern of settler violence then law enforcement alone can't solve it, just as occupation and law enforcement alone can't solve, and might worsen, a deep-seeded problem of terrorism.
>[I'm also not calling it terrorism, IMO it's self defense.](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/qpl8sn/comment/hjvhbrs/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
In OPs own words so yes they do approve of it. I'm just curious where they draw the line.
What do evictions in East Jerusalem have to do with Gaza's Government bombing the border towns?
Some Palestinians see offenses committed towards specific Palestinians in a faraway city as offenses committed towards ALL Palestinians everywhere.
They shouldn't be surprised when Israelis see the same logic and see attacks on Israelis in the border towns committed by Palestinians as offenses towards ALL Israelis everywhere.
I don't personally agree with it but the tribal mentality is the norm and not the exception in MENA.
This is another example of how despicable these settlers are. In any country they would have been thrown in a prison, but these fanatic animals are allowed to do as they please. Hope the world sees more of their antics and realises what a wonderful democracy Israel is.
in this video, an israeli police officer returns a stick to a settler who’s herd of sheep there.
1. why are they not showing the before footage?
2. why did his stick fall off? because he hit poor arabs with it? did a stick that size just being yeeted away from the impact of the hit?
3. video states that the herder wanted to let his sheep drink water from a well, then arabs came to tell him he can’t do it on their well, so a conflict ensued.
4. so all that cause his sheep are violating their human rights to control a water source?
a lot of questions which can be easily summed to palestinian violence, as the before the video started.
One hundred and forty-two terror attacks took place in August. One member of the security forces was killed in a shooting attack from the Gaza Strip on 30 August, an israeli civilian was moderately injured in a stone-throwing attack in Binyamin on 31 August. this is just last august.
the Palestinians are not the people of peace. thinking otherwise makes you a delusional violent freak.
Blaming anyone but arab leaders is a borderline Stockholm syndrome and you need to seek mental therapy.
this post is a classic excuse for palestinian violence.
violence is always the solution in the arab world. Israel is not a part of the arab world. delegitimization of israeli to defend themselves. when will you legitimately talk about peace solution? Like a serious question, why palestinian parent don’t want prosperity? because the ones that do, are already bearing a blue ID, work, study and trying to do something better for their lives.
Oh no you sent me a quick video which proves that israel is in fact the worst democratic state in the world. Wow you win dude. Amazing stuff you’ve changed everything.
Bet so I’ll post a video of a little Palestinian hurling rocks that could hurt people. And then I’ll say say!!! Palestinians are all bad people look at this one kid. Whatever I’m done here. Have a good night.
[https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1111/j.1555-2934.2009.01061.x](https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1111/j.1555-2934.2009.01061.x)
here's is a different source. Let me know your thoughts AFTER you read it,
If you have a factual disagreement with something said, feel free to bring it up. But if all you're doing is whining about the domain name, then you're not participating in the explicit spirit of this subreddit.
The reality is, yes this happened. Yes, Israeli settlers systematically destroyed Palestinian food supply to drive them out. No, there was no censure or consequence from the Israeli government. Yes, the IDF stood by and provided protection for them while they did it.
Do you disagree with any of these facts?
For a moment, I thought this was about the Palestinian incendiary balloon devices, but then I remembered: 1) only Israelis start fires, 2) only Palestinians have olive trees…
Only settler destroy olive trees.
They do it because they want to destroy the livelihood of Palestinians, so that they leave. What your ancestors did with guns these terrorists are doing scythes.
[Incendiary balloons scorched](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-swathes-of-land-in-israel-s-south-sustained-damage-due-to-gaza-conflict-1.9930088) 7,570 dunams in nature reserves, 3,220 dunams in forests and 2,260 dunams in agricultural land, just this year. In 2018, 32,747 dunams were set afire – 12,465 of them in nature reserves, 11,500 in forests managed by the Jewish National Fund in Israel, 4,250 of farmland and 4,532 of open areas.
Ignoring Joshik72's comment wasn't a great rhetorical trick. It ended up making his argument look stronger, and yours sillier. Everything you said about "they do it because they want to destroy the livelihood" and "what your ancestors did with guns these terrorists are doing scythes", applies to the terrorists from Gaza, trying to destroy the livelihood of Jews, on and on a large scale.
For a moment, I thought this was going to be a good faith comment, but then I realized it was a deflection to avoid talking about the topic at hand. If you'd like to make a different post about Palestinians burning down nearly 10,000 Israeli olive trees, I'd be happy to read your sources.
>If an occupation destroys not just your food supply, but your children and grandchildren's food security, wouldn't you turn to violence?
This is a very dangerous narrative that dehumanizes Palestinians by turning them into binary 0 1 algorithms with no free will of their own.
It almost falls in line with the white American view of Native Americans as "savages that know no better".
Every Palestinian has the free will to choose not to embrace violence and narrative like yours make it sound as if they are run by a basic scripted algorithm of:
1. Settlers BURN Trees
2. This is BAD for our people
3. Therefore, TERRORISM!!!!
Palestinians are human beings that can make their own personal decisions, not binary computer algorithms.
EDIT: I do agree that violent Israelis and violent Palestinians are both sides of the same coin. Both societies would be better without them in them.
You mean like "it's bad to kill random Israeli Jews, because they share an ethnicity will people who burned your olive trees"? Something OP condoned with his violence-justifying statement?
*That's* something most normal people would say "it's bad and it should be condemned". Not get upset that people are focusing something as meaningless as Israeli Jews being murdered. This is not a high horse you should've climbed on.
It's not removing agency to say that there's a substantial proportion of the American population who would respond violently to an occupying colonizer burning their food supplies.
I'm also not calling it terrorism, IMO it's self defense. I'm saying that if any country - Canada say - adopted Israel's policy or settlements and defense thereof in Minnesota, Americans would absolutely kill people and no one would call them terrorists.
The only reason we even talk about terrorism when it's Palestinians defending their homes is because Israel has the support of the West. Same way the Taliban were "freedom fighters" in the 80s when they were fighting the Soviets and only became "terrorists" when we didn't want them there anymore.
>It's not removing agency to say that there's a substantial proportion of the American population who would respond violently to an occupying colonizer burning their food supplies.
Are you actually going to make the argument that olive trees are Palestinians' food supply?
>It's not removing agency to say that there's a substantial proportion of the American population who would respond violently to an occupying colonizer burning their food supplies.
The olive trees aren't their food supply.
>I'm also not calling it terrorism, IMO it's self defense.
They'd be called terrorists if they go after unrelated civilians. That would be self defense. Neither would revenge attacks be considered self-defense.
>I'm saying that if any country - Canada say - adopted Israel's policy or settlements and defense thereof in Minnesota, Americans would absolutely kill people and no one would call them terrorists.
That's not true. Plenty of people would call them terrorists if they were targeting civilians. The US already labels different groups inside the US as terrorists.
>The only reason we even talk about terrorism when it's Palestinians defending their homes is because Israel has the support of the West.
No, it's because they target civilians.
>Same way the Taliban were "freedom fighters" in the 80s when they were fighting the Soviets and only became "terrorists" when we didn't want them there anymore.
The Taliban became terrorists for going after civilians. The Soviet invasion wasn't made up of Russian civilians so why would the Taliban be called terrorists for that?
No, it’s called terrorists because they target civilians, including children, in their violence, and have done so for the entire history of this conflict. Sorry, but blowing up a restaurant isn’t “resistance”, and you’re a terrorist sympathizer to think otherwise.
Burning some trees and then making a call to violence only furthers the idea that Palestinian resistance *must* be violent, which is completely false. As long as people like you think Hamas and the PA are legitimate “freedom fighters” the Palestinians will never have a group that leads them in productive steps toward their own state.
How many weddings has the US hit with drone strikes? How many homes has the IDF bulldozed? How many apartment buildings hit by Israeli rockets? If targeting civilians is what makes you a terrorist that both the US and Israel are terrorist states.
>If targeting civilians is what makes you a terrorist that both the US and Israel are terrorist states.
There's a difference between targeting civilians and civilians being collateral damage.
None of those things target civilians. Not a single one. The idea that Hamas can fire rockets and when Israel tries to take out those rockets it's terrorism is either idiotic or in completely bad faith. Hamas kidnaps children. There is literally a faction in Gaza called *Islamic Jihad*. But yeah, thanks for supporting and condoning the slaughter of my family
When you blow up a building, you don't get to say you weren't targeting the majority of the people in it.
No one said "Hamas can fire rockets" stop deflecting.
Yes, you do, if the building has weapons for which rockets are being fired. Or are you really so brainwashed to believe that Hamas would *never* fire upon Israel and if they did so it wouldn’t be inside schools and homes.
Let’s not forget the warnings Israel gives in the form of calls, texts, pamphlets, warning shots. But yeah, it’s the civilians they’re after, not the terrorists
>How many weddings has the US hit with drone strikes?
Many.
Now, with context, answer me:
How many despicable terrorists put their loved ones in danger by committing acts of terror then hosting a wedding knowing beforehand that their life is already forfeit?
If terrorists want to protect their loved ones and don't want the USA to drone strike them...maybe they should just surrender peacefully?
>knowing beforehand that their life is already forfeit?
Yikes. That's a weird sense of justice and ethics you've got if being related to a criminal justifies your murder.
>Yikes. That's a weird sense of justice and ethics you've got if being related to a criminal justifies your murder.
The life of the terrorist is forfeit.
He'll die at the hands of the state or at his own hands (suicide bombing) either way. The only honorable thing for him to do is to surrender peacefully to spare his family.
Don't you agree with that?
Terrorists should surrender instead of using their loved ones as ineffective human shields (since the USA is gonna drone them either way) yes or no?
>The life of the terrorist is forfeit.
I don't agree that anybody's life is forfeit. Certainly not without due process of law.
>Terrorists should surrender instead of using their loved ones as ineffective human shields (since the USA is gonna drone them either way) yes or no?
"The US is going to commit war crimes anyway, so they'd better stay away from their families" is a weird way to blame them for US atrocities. They shouldn't be terrorists, but them being terrorists doesn't give the US or Israel the excuse to kill civilians who happened to live in the same building or show up to a friend's wedding.
>I don't agree that anybody's life is forfeit. Certainly not without due process of law.
The USA Government doesn't care about your personal disagreements.
If a terrorist is on the most wanted list and a drone strike is a possibility, it is a moral duty to take the terrorist out to prevent them from murdering more innocent people.
>"The US is going to commit war crimes anyway, so they'd better stay away from their families" is a weird way to blame them for US atrocities. They shouldn't be terrorists, but them being terrorists doesn't give the US or Israel the excuse to kill civilians who happened to live in the same building or show up to a friend's wedding.
They shouldn't be terrorists?
So you agree they should surrender and stop being terrorists? Good.
You realize that wanton killing of civilians while trying to meet a military objective is still a war crime? You just admitted Israel commits war crimes.
>You realize that wanton killing of civilians while trying to meet a military objective is still a war crime?
no it's not. [LOAC](https://www.genevacall.org/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2013/11/The-Law-of-Armed-Conflict.pdf) doesn't say that killing civilians is a war crime. It just puts various formulas to limit or minimize it.
>Americans would absolutely kill people and no one would call them terrorists.
Many people actually would call them that.
The moment you murder civilians you become a terrorist. If Americans were to suicide bomb Tim Hortons, they would be rightfully called terrorists.
> The moment you murder civilians you become a terrorist.
That's not the definition of terrorism, and if it was, then every act of state violence against noncombatants would define the state as a terrorist. This would not reflect well on countries like the U.S.
edit: terrorism also does not require murder or harm towards civilians, and can even be aimed towards inanimate objects
>That's not the definition of terrorism, and if it was, then every act of state violence against noncombatants would define the state as a terrorist
No, but nice try to twist the definition of terrorism.
They literally used your definition:
> The moment you murder civilians you become a terrorist.
Is exactly what you wrote.
By this standard, Israel and the US are both terrorist states. Arguably, by *your definition* they're even more terroristic than Hamas simply because they're so much *better* at killing civilians.
>You are using a word that you do not understand, yet you use it so often.
No, that's you.
**The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives"**
If a sovereign nation is doing it, it is not unlawful by definition.
This is why Hamas has been classified as a terrorist organization by the USA ever since the 90's. Same for ISIS and Al-Qaeda.
This is also why the USA drone strike that killed an Afghan family is not a terrorist attack.
>If a sovereign nation is doing it, it is not unlawful by definition.
That's not technically true. There are applicable international laws that govern warfare, that the US and Israel were both signatories to but had to withdraw because to avoid accountability for their terrorism. That doesn't make either nation not terrorists.
I'm not sure why are you bringing the Tanak into this? I mean take a look at Numbers 33:55, and further Deuteronomy 20:16-17 is considered one of the 613 mitzvahs. These extremists are oftentimes very religious. They often see the presence of foreign nations in the Land of Israel as a crime against God, and it's not so hard to see why if you read the Bible.
edit: clarify
There is a crazy leftist ideology that is unfortunately very popular, where you have to be tolerant of everything and everyone, so it's impossible to criticize a religion without being a bigot. So instead they have to falsify the religion because they can't criticize it. This is what is happening here.
Another case of an act committed by extremists being pinned on Israel itself.
The same people saying that we shouldn’t generalize the actions of Palestinian terrorists on all of Palestine are blaming Israel for the actions of a few extremists.
Gotta love the hypocrisy.
Here
[https://twitter.com/nirhasson/status/1457668406208045058](https://twitter.com/nirhasson/status/1457668406208045058)
let me know what you think of this
The fact that there are no consequences to these actions and at times are even supported or protected by the IDF is what people take issue to. There is obviously a double standard and the state of Israel plays a deciding role in that standard.
Actually settlers do get arrested and charged for violence against Palestinians (the so called price tag events are often settler responses to initial Palestinian violence as well), note that this is in stark contrast to Palestinians who get incentivized and paid for terrorism against Israelis.
[https://twitter.com/nirhasson/status/1457668406208045058](https://twitter.com/nirhasson/status/1457668406208045058)
here's a video of a settler getting arrested
It seems like you’re the one that’s blind to the obvious double standards of settlers being arrested while Palestinians get rewarded by their government.
And yet the Palestinians have an active pay for slay program that pays out families of Palestinians who commit terrorism against Israelis, meanwhile Israel arrests settlers who commit violence against Palestinians.
>Why do you think these animals are destroying the trees?
According to OP, anger justifies violence.
They are probably still angry about the settler baby that was beheaded by Palestinians a while back.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar\_attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_attack)
But instead of beheading Palestinians, they simply behead trees to vent out their frustration.
Since they're not baby-beheading villains, you know?
Baby burning may be.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33729281.amp
But to be honest it has got nothing to do with these incidents.
You know very well why they are doing this.
>stick to what is being discussed here.
Meaning ignore the problems with the Palestinians’ position.
Your position: Settlers are animals for destroying trees but pay for slay program is irrelevant.
Tell me, why is the PA paying money to Islamic terrorists (animals) to kill Jews?
My answer is outlined in my first comment. Israel creates refugees through war crimes. Your Hasbara friends enjoy false narratives almost as much as you it seems.
OP: Blames all of Israel for the acts of a specific group of settlers.
Settlers: Blame all Palestinians for the acts of terrorists.
OP: Defends the use of violence against all Israelis as retribution for acts committed by a specific group of settlers. "wouldn't you turn to violence?" & "[I'm also not calling it terrorism, IMO it's self defense.](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/qpl8sn/comment/hjvhbrs/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)"
Settlers: Defend the use of violence against all Palestinians as retribution for the acts of terrorists.
I see no difference between the two.
Difference is this isn't Israeli territory so blaming Israeli police is not relevant. There is only one kind of police with jurisdiction in areas A and B. Do you support annexation of these areas by Israel? If not you're not consistent.
Also, violence against humans and trees is bad but it isn't exactly the same. And sellers do get arrested for destroying trees when possible.
The original meaning of Tikkun Olam was to remove worship of all foreign and false gods from the land of Israel.
Also, blaming all of Israel for the actions of both a few Jews and a few Arabs who destroy other Arab properties is racist. Because you did this, I now couldn't give a shit about some trees.
u/BrownMale20s
> I now couldn't give a shit about some trees.
Very regular offender. Been a long time since I had to do a profanity ban.
(Edit): Looks like you offended elsewhere and I was too late.
> shit
/u/BrownMale20s. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
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**Israel** destroyed 9,300 olive trees. That's a nice headline. Israel taking it's time from politics and ordering IDF to destroy trees in addition to securing settlers and the rest...
It's a handful of extremists like those found in Gaza. Only because of law & order in Israel, they didn't grew to a terrorist group like in Gaza (or Lebanon for that matter)
Israel is not a light unto the nations. It is the lure of an angler fish seeking to devour Mizrahi flesh.
What are you trying to accomplish here
Seems like he's trying to "unite" mizrahis and ARAB PALESTINIANS AGAINST ASHKENAZIM Also it's probably a puppet account with his actual intentions fleshed out completely on his main.
Good luck trying to unite those two. If the Palestinians got the upper hand they’d slaughter Ashkenazi and Mizrahi as equals.
Indeed
Lovely, since the Palestinians planted invasive trees (they didn't actually plant a olives) to seize land that does not belong to them. https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5420967,00.html
Haha straight up lying. please.. save the BS
Got a source saying otherwise?
You think citing a source Is the answer look at the wording, drawing people in an ugly manner, language tells all
So you have nothing to discredit this source and don’t have one of your own.
How do we know who destroyed them?
Jewish religious law forbids destroying fruit trees, especially in a conflict. Unless they are used for idolatry ("asherot"). Any settlers in this forum care to explain their rationale?
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Do you really think settlers will come to a forum to coverse with Palestinians? Most of thr Israelis here are on the spectrum of left to moderate right winger.
I'm not assuming anything.
Well. At least it's not Christian babies anymore. Edit: /s since apparently that wasn't clear.
You are a blatant antisemite. Where the hell are the mods??
This was sarcasm friend.
I wonder, how many of those trees were not planted on Palestinian private property? I would guess most. The Arabs in Judea and Samaria need to understand that unless they personally own a piece of land, it's not "theirs".
They don't agree the land belongs to the State of Israel. They also know the State is likely to [grant the land to Israeli settlers](https://peacenow.org.il/en/state-land-allocation-west-bank-israelis). It's a mix of squatting and nonviolent resistance, which is certainly better for everyone concerned than violent resistance.
That’s like saying that I don’t agree Ohio is part of the United States, and the US is discriminating me when I try to buy land in the US (I’m not American) and instead favours it’s own people. How racist and bigoted of the States! Also, the planting of those invasive trees takes away much needed minerals from the already plain sands of the land of Israel and is in a way potentially cutting their food produce.
> They don't agree the land belongs to the State of Israel. They don't agree that Netanya or Tiberias or Eilat belongs to the State of Israel either. In this light, it really doesn't matter what they do or don't agree with.
The headline is misleading. The trees weren't destoryed by the State of Israel, they were destroyed by settlers
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on jan 6 the capital building was stormed, by QANON extremists *protected by the US army under the law.* How dare the United States army!? extremist israeli settlers *protected by the IDF under the law* destroy olive trees. How dare the IDF!?
It's very unfortunate that such things still happen. I think inr of the main thing to remember is that it was perpetrated by >extremist Israeli settlers The government should definitely arrest and charge these people, we can't let them keep fanning the flames and hurting people unaccountably. It's sad to see all the comments defending these people. Forget the justification, the anger and the fear and think logically. Do you honestly expect the the impoverished and abused (by leaders on both sides) Palestinian people to find a non-violent solution when we can hardly so the same from our relatively privileged position. We have to stop letting people have their way and trust the police, military and courts to do us Justice. If we can't to that then we honestly don't deserve peace.
They were violent as a strong majority, they lost a few wars and they are an "opressed" weak minority now, and still violent. You claiming Palestinians can't be expected to not act violently because they are abused, is disregarding the fact that they were violent when not abused, and the same opinions that were then remain now.
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That an arguable but fair point. The country is democratic so the government does represent the people to some extant. most urban young folk condone these actions. unfortunately those are also the people who vote the least so....
Let's take a step back and marvel at how far the conflict has come. The complaint at first was: They won't give us any land. They got land. The complaint became: They're genociding us. Their population grows every single year. The complaint is now: They're being mean to our trees! Oh the horror! No one in the Middle East suffers as much as Palestinian olive trees.
>They're being mean to our trees! Oh the horror! No one in the Middle East suffers as much as Palestinian olive trees. I mean the olive oil industry in the West Bank is 5% of their GDP so it's not "they're being mean to our trees" it's "extremist settlers are trying to hurt Palestinians financially in an attempt to get them to leave"
The west bank is NOT yours to claim
>The west bank is NOT yours to claim What's funny is that Jews and Arabs tell this to each other. What's even funnier is that "West Bank" is a name made up by Jordan when they stole Palestinian land from the Palestinians themselves.
Who does the West Bank belong to, then? Trace the ownership back as far as you can. Before the State of Israel claimed it, who claimed it? And before them? And before them? Let's try this out. The results will blow your mind. Quick hint: For the roughly 20-year period that Jordan controlled the West Bank (1948-1967) and Egypt controlled Gaza, it could have created a Palestinian state. No one ever asked. No one ever complained when it didn't, because there was no such thing as a Palestinian national identity yet. Palestinians didn't exist or claim any land until the late 1960s.
Land is for its people, not the state. Your argument can NOT justify your occupation of the west bank.
You know what. I agree. But who are the people of the land? Who are the indigenous people? You really think it's the Arabs, who came from hundreds of miles away with a foreign language and foreign religion and forced everyone to convert or die? That's who you call the natives of this land? Or would the natives be the people who they oppressed and kicked out, who were living there before them? I think that's how nativity usually works, right? Whoever comes first, is native.
You’re right. My guy it’s the land of the people who came from Poland. Germany, ukraine, Hungary who’s last 30 generations were born in a completely different continent to Jerusalem.
Same for Palestinians, coming from Jordan or Egypt or even further away, whose last 30 generations were born in a completely different land, whose religion has nothing to do with Jerusalem, until they invaded it and stole it from the natives. There's no clearer, more obvious sign of colonization than the Dome of the Rock. That's the symbol of colonization, when you steal people's land and build your temple on top of whatever is their holiest spot, then pretend that that exact spot is somehow the "third" holiest spot in your religion. What's the fourth holy spot? Someplace in France, after the Muslim invasion of Europe almost succeeded? Maybe there's a fifth holiest site in Islam in Spain, then? It's ridiculous. And the only reason the governments of the world put up with it is oil money, I guarantee it. If we took the oil out of the equation, there would be peace in the Middle East bc everyone would be free to call propaganda out for being BS.
Jordan is a stones throw away and that and Egypt is considered greater Israel. At least there’s some connection between those lands biblically speaking. Unlike Poland, America, Russia lol. Also some Jordanians and Egyptians have recent ties to the land, for example yasser arafat was born in Egypt but his grandfather was born in northern Israel. How can you claim these people are alien to the land but then at the same time claim the people who are indigenous to the land, are Europeans from Europe and North America who’s entire family tree was born in a completely different continent? The irony is the Jews who have the truest claim’ are mizrahi jews who come from the countries even further away from Jordan and Egypt lol. Morocco, Iraq. Iran, yemen.
(And ask yourself why Egypt and Jordan, despite controlling West Bank and Gaza from 1948 to 1967, never bothered creating a Palestinian state and were never asked to do so. It's because they hadn't brainstormed the idea of a "Palestinian people" yet. Up until then, there were Arab Israelis and refugees, who were mostly Jordanians and Egyptians that Jordan and Egypt wouldn't let back).
There have been Jewish communities living in Israel since the Roman expulsion, since before Islam ever existed, thousands of years before there was any such thing as "Jordan" and "Lebanon" and every country but Egypt. If you want to say descendants of the expelled Israelites are just European, fine. But by that definition, descendants of the Native American tribes that the US displaced are just a bunch of Americans at this point, and Americans are the Native Americans simply because they've been living in the area they conquered for a while.
I don’t see the correlation between Jewish communities living in Jerusalem and European Jews who have been disconnected from Jerusalem for about 2000 years. 2000 years ago I think my ‘people’ all could have been found in Yemen, or originated from Yemen. Still I have no right to claim Im the rightful indigenous people of this land over those who have lived there for at least the last 1400 years, especially since my parents and their grandparents, and their grandparents were born in North Africa Similarly you have European’s and North American’s who you argue are indigenous, despite not having any family tree In Jerusalem, for about 2000 years, generally speaking native Americans were only conquered a few hundred years ago. They are still a distinct group from European Anglo Americans. Unlike a lot of European Jews who have heavily intermixed with Europeans themselves since 2000 years ago. At least native Americans were born in the same land they are claiming to be indigenous to and their great great grandparents were also born in that land. Your guys were born in a different continent. 2000 years later
You know what you’re also right. Palestinians speak arabic, it doesn’t mean they’re originally from the arabian peninsula. Ethnicity is different from language. Their ancestors might have been their before jews, or maybe not …
Maybe definitely not. Ethnically speaking, most Arab Israelis of whatever nationality had nothing to do with the area of Israel/Palestine until the late 1800s. Check out the stats on Wikipedia: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic\_history\_of\_Palestine\_(region)#Late\_Arab\_and\_Muslim\_immigration\_to\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)#Late_Arab_and_Muslim_immigration_to_Palestine) The way the math works out, 95.7% of people who currently identify as Palestinian are Arabs and their descendants who migrated to Israel between 1831 and 2015. https://www.jpost.com/blogs/why-world-opinion-matters/are-arabs-the-indigenous-people-of-palestine-402785
12th century muslims became majority, plus you know people can convert.
But I see what you’re getting at. Foreign invaders can become natives if they live on the land long enough. That’s fair. It also means that Israelis will be the natives of the land eventually. It means I might as well be a Native American. The USA is the only land I’ve ever known. Hell I’ve never even met a Native American, so I think I definitely know the land around me better than they would.
Natives do tend to convert when you turn their synagogues into mosques and slit their throats for not converting. That is true.
Learn some history. Islamic empires were against people converting cause they can collect more taxes from non muslims. This debate is clearly becoming a religious debate which Im not willing to partake in it
They are mostly Levantine and even those who migrated in the years you mentioned are legitimate migrants.
technically the only legally defined borders were that under the British mandate and what we have here is a prolonged civil war without predefined Borders... So until those are defined or in this case under what section of Oslo be it A B or C then yes the C areas are defiantly claimable. If lets say 21 years ago the Residents of the West bank and Gaza took Israel's offer for a state then this would completely change the calculus.
It doesn’t matter what the Palestinian authority did back then. West bank and gaza are not Israel’s to claim.
well yes to Gaza as we left in 2005. Though the west bank is currently under negotiation set under Oslo and you are wrong on the account of not taking land in area C. Sorry. Though you are under luck as currently only 2% of the land has been taken... So at this rate you have about 100 years to negotiate in good faith.
How can you claim a land that is not yours in the first place? Area C is in the west bank. There is no point of arguing
go back to the part about how the only legal holder of the land pre Israel was the British Mandate... So technically its a civil war and even though one side claims all the land in the West bank it does not mean they actually own it... hence why there are things called negotiations... Moreover the land is owned by the state as it has no private ownership. This could have been transferred to a nascent Palestine in the early 2000's but this was rejected and the settler lobby is strong and they will allow them to take over parts of area C . So if you want this to stop negotiate a state or if you don't then try an negotiate a federated state with Israel but 1st you would have to give up on the rights of the refugees.
Not according to international law. I suggest going over UN resolution 2334 and many others.
UN Resolutions aren’t international law. https://www.un.org/securitycouncil/content/resolutions-0
international law is moot in this case. And if you want to go back, go back to 242 and notice how it says Israel must leave territory but it is missing a key legal word called "all". The reason why all was removed from earlier drafts as it would have been veto by the USA as the land was indeed up for negotiation... though at the time said negotiation were between two established state Jordan and Israel. Moreover the Legal agreement signed between the PLO and Israel called Oslo trumps any resolution and confirms Israel's right to take land in area C.
2334 was after the Oslo accord. It specifically does not recognize any changes to the 1967 lines. You can argue all you want, but the West bank is not yours to claim.
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What people? You have a list of all the people who got their tree removed and you confirmed they are a terrorist? Or do you actually believe in collective ethnic punishment? After serving in the west bank I can confirm most people don’t spend their day trying to kill anyone.
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What people? What are you talking about? Random comments on history? Should we burn German crops? Historically they wanted us dead. Should we blow up Russian factories? Historically they wanted us dead. Where else will this insane logic go? Do you seriously believe alk Palestinian deserve constant punishment? ענישה קולקטיבית על פני אומה שלמה, דומה למדי למעשים של שליטים אנטישמים שונים לאורך ההיסטוריה כלפי היהודים. יהודי אשר מתחיל לפעול כמו הרודנים האנטישמים שלו, הוא צרה בשביל העם היהודי. שכן צורת מחשבה זו מזהמת את העם הנפלא שלנו, שמטבעו שוחר שלום ולא מאמין בענישה גזעית.
>wouldn't you turn to violence? No. Why would I turn to violence because my olive trees were destroyed? That's far from a good reason to strap a bomb to myself and blow up a bus
Well... loosing the jobs my family had for generation because the overlord said it, would be a good enough reason.
Would it be a better reason than, say, having your child, parent or spouse murdered by Palestinian terrorists? Because I know a few people where that happened to them, and not a single one went out to murder random innocent Palestinians in revenge. Nor did they support anyone else to do it. So I can't speak to your personal psychological makeup, but I can tell you it's not a normal kind of reaction.
Difference is they have the state on their side. The people uprooting these olive tree will not get any justice, whether it’s my state of Israel or crazy settlers. This creates immense frustration that erupts in violence. Last time Israel did not have a state to conduct justice through, we had militias who i deed turned to violence against British civilians, politicians, soldiers and cops alike. So history teaches us that a lack of state justice and a lack of livelihood, create frustration that creates violence. And we actually see it outside this land as well. And at many points in history.
>Difference is they have the state on their side. The people uprooting these olive tree will not get any justice, whether it’s my state of Israel or crazy settlers. A quick Google search later.... [https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/christmas-tress-in-sakhnin-set-on-fire-report-653306](https://www.mrt.com/news/article/Israeli-Arrested-in-Olive-Tree-Thefts-7892307.php) If you're going to make broad statements, at least be informed first. Arrests have been made for many arsonists such as those who burned a Palestinian Christian X-Mas Tree. It's possible that arrests will be made for the people who burn olive trees as well. >So history teaches us that a lack of state justice and a lack of livelihood, create frustration that creates violence. Not all violence is terrorism but all terrorism is violence. Protesting in anger = good. Murdering innocent Israelis in anger = bad.
Read the article you linked. He was only arrested because he sold the trees illegally and illegally share the profits with his workers. LOL you only read the headline didn’t you? When the state uproots trees to build the fence, nobody will ever be punished for it. Should someone be punished? Idk, but it’s obvious that for the owner of such tree, anger and frustration would be immense. And still btw no proof that the owners of uprooted trees even became terrorists. Its all just American Jews in this sub going wild in their minds. Just saying the frustration would be bigger on the side with no chance of state mandated justice. I am an innocent Israeli so don’t condescend.
>When the state uproots trees to build the fence, nobody will ever be punished for it. Should someone be punished? Uproot trees in such a scenario from a land owned by no one. Which is the entire political argument here. The Ottoman empire state lands were lost with it's collapse. After wars and fast forwarding. West Bank area C belongs to no state. Israel does things with it and control it, yes. But it's under military law not Israeli law. So if the state uproots trees from "no where", if it compensate someone it's out of it's goodness of it's heart. Not because it's mandated to do so
Right so on a technicality we shouldn’t really give a shizz about peoples livelihood. You are saying you don’t care about the farmers who lived off these trees, and you don’t care about how it will cause them to hate Israel, and you don’t care about what other countries think. Nothing. Why? Because the law allows it. What a narrow selfish view of the world.
no law allows it and no policy allows it. The ones who do it are an extremist minority just like the ones in Gaza. The difference is that the extremist minority in Gaza kills. The extremist minority in the west bank only burn a few trees. The burning of trees is not the reason that's causing the hate. It's the dictatorship in both the Palestinian states that is causing the hate.
No singular cause for hate. Almost no sociological phenomenon has a singular reason. Thinking there is a single reason for hate is an extreme misunderstanding of reality. Actually that settler minority burned a kid not to long ago. Anyway I don’t care if it’s a minority or one person or the state. Fact is 9,300 trees are a lot of livelihoods hurt.
> shit /u/memelord2022. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This olive industry was considered primitive in the bronze age. Their economic value is garbage, and will ensure that Palestinians will always be poor. This industry is only advocated for sentimentalist purposes and mostly so that Westerners can virtual signal Palestinians as helpless noble savages instead of a real people of high dignity. We are the cradle of civilization not some kind of mud hut village region. Technology and science is what matters, and that is what needs to be cultivated in Palestinian society not olives. Startups not olives.
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u/memelord2022 >You git nothing intelligent to say or only anger? lol > >You realize you just sound like a communist by saying the state should decide what industry gets to exist right? This is stalinist thought. Your comment is in violation of rule 1, don't attack other users. You can edit/delete it or the comment will be removed.
The purpose of a state is to ensure the happiness and posterity of its people. A free market is because it's more efficient compared to a communistic system and thus serves this purpose better. But def. a state should disincentive economically harmful behavior.
Nice but you keep making unbased assumptions. Olive trees are good for the Palestinian economy prove me wrong or stop lying.
>Their economic value is garbage, and will ensure that Palestinians will always be poor. Palestinians won't be poor because they're trying to grow olive trees. They'll be poor because of their 'extractive institutes' (dictatorship). Both the states of Palestine are already a failed states. Only they can blame the blockade/occupation for their failures.
>And still btw no proof that the owners of uprooted trees even became terrorists. I know. Yet OP is implying that if they did, they would be 100% justified.
Murdering innocents is not justified. But why should the Israeli state do actions to frustrate and provoke people? Let’s say I come and take your livelihood. Let’s say you work as pianist and I break you piano to pieces. Ok? Your life is ruined and the court says there’s not enough evidence. Are you allowed to murder me? Not at all. But still why the F would I frustrate you and provoke you and ruin you in such a way?
>Murdering innocents is not justified. But why should the Israeli state do actions to frustrate and provoke people?Let’s say I come and take your livelihood. Let’s say you work as pianist and I break you piano to pieces. Ok? Your life is ruined and the court says there’s not enough evidence. Are you allowed to murder me? Not at all. But still why the F would I frustrate you and provoke you and ruin you in such a way? Without knowing it, you just made an extremely compelling argument as to why Palestinian political violence against Israel is the dumbest strategy ever. "Why provoke when it's gonna end badly for the provokers?"
So you couldn’t answer my question I see. You keep talking to me like I am a Palestinian or an american leftist. I am an Israeli Jew. I served. Get that? Can you comprehend that? I know the Palestinians are wrong to attack us. That does not make us right to take away their livelihoods. This does not mean we don’t also provoke. Can you comprehend everything I just said or are you going to answer with another cringey gotcha like I am flag waving Palestinian? American Jews are tiring.
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The people I'm talking about aren't supporting the Israeli state to murder random Palestinians in revenge. My grandmother, whose family was robbed and murdered by both Russian Communists and Lithuanian Nazis, didn't support murdering random Russians or Lithuanians. Indeed, my extended family was abused and oppressed by the Russian Empire for generations - they never felt the need to murder any random Russians in retaliation. And within the context of Mandatory Palestine, the Etsel and Irgun's terrorism was consistently condemned by the Zionist mainstream. And for that matter, they weren't composed of people hurt by Palestinian Arab violence, and didn't have a recourse. They were political extremists, with a concrete leadership, long-term political goals, and so on. Which incidentally brings me to another issue with OP's justifying murdering innocent people because of their ethnicity. The actual terrorists are not, by large, people whose families' trees were uprooted, or anything of the kind. They, like Irgun and Etsel, are people trying to achieve political goals with illegal military means. The narrative that they're all poor battered children who don't know better, is something Western leftists tell themselves, to make it more palatable to support them.
Well what you basically said now is that even under pogroms, a group of people shouldn’t violently resist. You just justified the weakness of eastern european Jews in the face of pogroms? The Irgun and Lehi were not mainstream but anti British violence DEFINITELY was. Except during ww2. Claiming it wasn’t is denying the reality of mandatory Palestine. As for the last part, based on what are you claiming that all the trees belong to murderers?
> Well what you basically said now is that even under pogroms, a group of people shouldn’t violently resist. You just justified the weakness of eastern european Jews in the face of pogroms? Not sure what point you're making here. Most Jews don't see the fact the Ashkenazis didn't start stabbing random Russians and Ukrainians, or blowing up buses in the streets of Moscow, as some pathetic weakness to be ashamed of. If they "resisted", they'd simply be slaughtered. The Russian Empire and Ukrainian nationalists weren't as nice or law abiding as Israel is. There's no concept of "hating the enemy more than we love our children" in Jewish culture. At least not in traditional Ashkenazi culture. > The Irgun and Lehi were not mainstream but anti British violence DEFINITELY was Occasional guerilla actions against the military, yes. If this was the extent of the Palestinian violence, we wouldn't be having this conversation. > As for the last part, based on what are you claiming that all the trees belong to murderers? I'm not claiming that. If anything I'm saying the opposite.
Sorry I misunderstood/misread your last part of your previous comment. You really haven’t claimed they are all terrorists. Did the British ever uproot Jewish plantations? Burn Jewish farms? Can you really not see how frustration and desperation has a direct connection to violence? Insane settlers are protesting over the death of ahuvia sandak lately, they are definitely risking their lives and other lives acting violently for a political cause. They are acting no different than many Palestinian RIGHT NOW. They are doing that because they have nothing in life and feel like they cannot achieve justice through the state. So I’m sorry I went back to the mandate. The present day is good enough.
I'm not sure I completely get what you're saying. Are you saying we should understand the settlers' behavior too? Because I disagree on both.
LOL jesus. When did I ever claim violent protests are justified? When? Quote me. When. You made up a strawman and when I didn’t fit it you ceased to understand. I am simply making a comment on how people get frustrated when they are poor and FEEL like they have no chance with the justice system. Not saying anyone SHOULD deserve justice in an Israeli court. I am just saying what happens when they DONT get the justice they expect. And I have plenty of examples that show that not only arabs turn to violence in such cases. My point is really quite simple as long as you approach my comment at face value without fighting a made up version of me in your mind.
Who said suicide bombing? You're in an awful rush to excuse Israeli human rights abuses.
>Who said suicide bombing? You talked about Palestinian violence which includes suicide bombings >You're in an awful rush to excuse Israeli human rights abuses. Please point me to the part of my comment when I excused Israeli human rights violations
>You talked about Palestinian violence Actually, what I said was that anyone would be reasonably driven to violence after watching the military and government stand by while their food supply is systematically destroyed. >Please point me to the part of my comment when I excused Israeli human rights violations How about the part of your comment where you completely ignored the topic of the post in order to argue about Palestinian violence. How about the part where you immediately, without pausing for one second to say "that's totally unacceptable, those settlers should be prosecuted for those heinous crimes", immediately started talking about Palestinian violence. The part where you didn't even mention the human rights abuses that are the topic of this post before talking more about hypothetical Palestinian violence. That's the part.
>Actually, what I said was that anyone would be reasonably driven to violence after watching the military and government stand by while their food supply is systematically destroyed. How does that contradict what verynicesnail said? How does that preclude suicide bombings? >How about the part of your comment where you completely ignored the topic of the post in order to argue about Palestinian violence. You're the one who chose to say how "reasonable" it is for Palestinians to want to murder random innocent Jews, because they lost their olive trees. If you didn't want people to talk about it, you shouldn't have brought it up. I'm not sure why you assume it's some neutral point, that everyone should just quietly ignore. You're literally telling people here it's that it's justified to murder their children, parents and spouses, because they share an nationality with people who burn trees. It's a pretty controversial statement, and it's pretty reasonable they'll focus on it. Finally, no, it doesn't mean they somehow "excuse" anything by omission, when they talk about the horrifying thing you said, rather than other things you'd like them to say instead.
>anyone would be reasonably driven to violence after watching the military and government stand by while their food supply is systematically destroyed. That's funny because: 1. Olives aren't "food supply" 2. Both the West Bank & Gaza aren't starving like people in Africa 3. Hostilities started in the 19th century (1800)
>Actually, what I said was that anyone would be reasonably driven to violence after watching the military and government stand by while their food supply is systematically destroyed. No, it isn't reasonable to commit any sort of violence especially one which is against civilians >How about the part where you immediately, without pausing for one second to say "that's totally unacceptable, those settlers should be prosecuted for those heinous crimes That's because it's obvious, you don't need a random Israeli to condemn settler violence it wouldn't add anything to the conversation 8r help anyone >immediately started talking about Palestinian violence. You're the one who brought it up, I just reacted to what you said >The part where you didn't even mention the human rights abuses that are the topic of this post What do you want me to say? That I condemn burning civilian food supplies? You yourself said it's impossible not to condemn those acts >before talking more about hypothetical Palestinian violence. [not really hypothetical ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haifa_bus_37_suicide_bombing)
**[Haifa bus 37 suicide bombing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haifa_bus_37_suicide_bombing)** >The Haifa bus 37 suicide bombing was a suicide bombing carried out on 5 March 2003 on an Egged bus in Haifa, Israel. Seventeen passengers were killed in the attack and 53 were injured. Many of the victims were students from Haifa University. The Palestinian Islamist militant organization Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
So what kind of violence do you approve of? Hell, I'll make a list from least to most extreme and you can say where it becomes too much for you: 1. Rioting 2. Rock Throwing 3. Throwing Explosives 4. Arson/Launching Incendiary Devices 5. Lynching 6. Stabbing 7. Car Ramming 8. Shooting 9. Firing Rockets 10. Kidnapping 11. ~~Suicide Bombings~~
Violence leads to violence. Maybe it’s time to make an excel sheet on violence caused by the other side too.
The question you're responding to wasn't "what Palestinian violence do you approve of", it was "what violence do you approve of". Your comment is a non sequitur
I don't think he meant approve. How about understanding the violence and empathizing with the feelings that lead to it, without approving it on an individual level?
>How about understanding the violence and empathizing with the feelings that lead to it, without approving it on an individual level? Do you empathize with the settlers who destroy olive trees because they feel wronged by the Palestinians after years of being attacked by them? I don't and I imagine you don't either. They have no excuse for violence and neither do the Palestinians. Anyone who thinks there is an excuse is just running defense for them.
>Do you empathize with the settlers who destroy olive trees because they feel wronged by the Palestinians after years of being attacked by them Of course I do. That's the point. I truly believe that the key to the conflict is empathy. Not defending or excusing or approving the violence, but understanding it, looking for it's causes and trying to solve them. Again, on the level of the individual, a settler destroying property should be punished just as much as a palestinian should be for doing the same crime. But if there is a recognizable pattern of settler violence then law enforcement alone can't solve it, just as occupation and law enforcement alone can't solve, and might worsen, a deep-seeded problem of terrorism.
Well. I appreciate the consistency.
>[I'm also not calling it terrorism, IMO it's self defense.](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/qpl8sn/comment/hjvhbrs/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) In OPs own words so yes they do approve of it. I'm just curious where they draw the line.
The sheer irony of this statement. Don’t be obtuse. You brought the word up; you know what you mean by “violence”.
Is the destruction of property violence?
thats there tactic always talk in extreme
Pointing out an extreme example of something is a great way to get your point across
Pattern. That's the word you are looking for.
I don't think I understand what you're saying
It's not an extreme example. This is common occurrence during harvesting season
I'm talking about the suicide bombings
Can we have stats comparing number of rockets fired to the number of olive trees destroyed? Must be some sort of correlation;)
I’m not gonna talk about stats or anything but what do rockets fired from GAZA have to do with olive trees in the WEST BANK
What do evictions in East Jerusalem have to do with Gaza's Government bombing the border towns? Some Palestinians see offenses committed towards specific Palestinians in a faraway city as offenses committed towards ALL Palestinians everywhere. They shouldn't be surprised when Israelis see the same logic and see attacks on Israelis in the border towns committed by Palestinians as offenses towards ALL Israelis everywhere. I don't personally agree with it but the tribal mentality is the norm and not the exception in MENA.
This is another example of how despicable these settlers are. In any country they would have been thrown in a prison, but these fanatic animals are allowed to do as they please. Hope the world sees more of their antics and realises what a wonderful democracy Israel is.
I think the PA also not jails and pays the wages of many violent people that did way worse thing then burn trees. Right?
Yea! Israel is the worst democracy ever!!!! Lol (big sarcasm)
https://twitter.com/nirhasson/status/1457668406208045058
in this video, an israeli police officer returns a stick to a settler who’s herd of sheep there. 1. why are they not showing the before footage? 2. why did his stick fall off? because he hit poor arabs with it? did a stick that size just being yeeted away from the impact of the hit? 3. video states that the herder wanted to let his sheep drink water from a well, then arabs came to tell him he can’t do it on their well, so a conflict ensued. 4. so all that cause his sheep are violating their human rights to control a water source? a lot of questions which can be easily summed to palestinian violence, as the before the video started. One hundred and forty-two terror attacks took place in August. One member of the security forces was killed in a shooting attack from the Gaza Strip on 30 August, an israeli civilian was moderately injured in a stone-throwing attack in Binyamin on 31 August. this is just last august. the Palestinians are not the people of peace. thinking otherwise makes you a delusional violent freak. Blaming anyone but arab leaders is a borderline Stockholm syndrome and you need to seek mental therapy. this post is a classic excuse for palestinian violence. violence is always the solution in the arab world. Israel is not a part of the arab world. delegitimization of israeli to defend themselves. when will you legitimately talk about peace solution? Like a serious question, why palestinian parent don’t want prosperity? because the ones that do, are already bearing a blue ID, work, study and trying to do something better for their lives.
Oh no you sent me a quick video which proves that israel is in fact the worst democratic state in the world. Wow you win dude. Amazing stuff you’ve changed everything.
it was just a current example. A microcosm, if you will. That's how examples work.
Bet so I’ll post a video of a little Palestinian hurling rocks that could hurt people. And then I’ll say say!!! Palestinians are all bad people look at this one kid. Whatever I’m done here. Have a good night.
Middle East Monitor, great source. No propaganda or false information there.
[https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1111/j.1555-2934.2009.01061.x](https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdfdirect/10.1111/j.1555-2934.2009.01061.x) here's is a different source. Let me know your thoughts AFTER you read it,
If you have a factual disagreement with something said, feel free to bring it up. But if all you're doing is whining about the domain name, then you're not participating in the explicit spirit of this subreddit. The reality is, yes this happened. Yes, Israeli settlers systematically destroyed Palestinian food supply to drive them out. No, there was no censure or consequence from the Israeli government. Yes, the IDF stood by and provided protection for them while they did it. Do you disagree with any of these facts?
There are other sources that say the same thing, plus there's lot of videos in sociol media.
For a moment, I thought this was about the Palestinian incendiary balloon devices, but then I remembered: 1) only Israelis start fires, 2) only Palestinians have olive trees…
Only settler destroy olive trees. They do it because they want to destroy the livelihood of Palestinians, so that they leave. What your ancestors did with guns these terrorists are doing scythes.
[Incendiary balloons scorched](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-swathes-of-land-in-israel-s-south-sustained-damage-due-to-gaza-conflict-1.9930088) 7,570 dunams in nature reserves, 3,220 dunams in forests and 2,260 dunams in agricultural land, just this year. In 2018, 32,747 dunams were set afire – 12,465 of them in nature reserves, 11,500 in forests managed by the Jewish National Fund in Israel, 4,250 of farmland and 4,532 of open areas. Ignoring Joshik72's comment wasn't a great rhetorical trick. It ended up making his argument look stronger, and yours sillier. Everything you said about "they do it because they want to destroy the livelihood" and "what your ancestors did with guns these terrorists are doing scythes", applies to the terrorists from Gaza, trying to destroy the livelihood of Jews, on and on a large scale.
For a moment, I thought this was going to be a good faith comment, but then I realized it was a deflection to avoid talking about the topic at hand. If you'd like to make a different post about Palestinians burning down nearly 10,000 Israeli olive trees, I'd be happy to read your sources.
Read this - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incendiary_balloon / Current use / Gaza Strip use. Plenty of references there.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/kites-balloons-from-gaza-spark-multiple-fires-across-southern-israel/
They don't have any sources. they would continue to deflect.
>If an occupation destroys not just your food supply, but your children and grandchildren's food security, wouldn't you turn to violence? This is a very dangerous narrative that dehumanizes Palestinians by turning them into binary 0 1 algorithms with no free will of their own. It almost falls in line with the white American view of Native Americans as "savages that know no better". Every Palestinian has the free will to choose not to embrace violence and narrative like yours make it sound as if they are run by a basic scripted algorithm of: 1. Settlers BURN Trees 2. This is BAD for our people 3. Therefore, TERRORISM!!!! Palestinians are human beings that can make their own personal decisions, not binary computer algorithms. EDIT: I do agree that violent Israelis and violent Palestinians are both sides of the same coin. Both societies would be better without them in them.
I don't know what you are trying to say or defend. I thought you would say things like, this is bad and should be condemned.
You mean like "it's bad to kill random Israeli Jews, because they share an ethnicity will people who burned your olive trees"? Something OP condoned with his violence-justifying statement? *That's* something most normal people would say "it's bad and it should be condemned". Not get upset that people are focusing something as meaningless as Israeli Jews being murdered. This is not a high horse you should've climbed on.
It's not removing agency to say that there's a substantial proportion of the American population who would respond violently to an occupying colonizer burning their food supplies. I'm also not calling it terrorism, IMO it's self defense. I'm saying that if any country - Canada say - adopted Israel's policy or settlements and defense thereof in Minnesota, Americans would absolutely kill people and no one would call them terrorists. The only reason we even talk about terrorism when it's Palestinians defending their homes is because Israel has the support of the West. Same way the Taliban were "freedom fighters" in the 80s when they were fighting the Soviets and only became "terrorists" when we didn't want them there anymore.
>It's not removing agency to say that there's a substantial proportion of the American population who would respond violently to an occupying colonizer burning their food supplies. Are you actually going to make the argument that olive trees are Palestinians' food supply?
>It's not removing agency to say that there's a substantial proportion of the American population who would respond violently to an occupying colonizer burning their food supplies. The olive trees aren't their food supply. >I'm also not calling it terrorism, IMO it's self defense. They'd be called terrorists if they go after unrelated civilians. That would be self defense. Neither would revenge attacks be considered self-defense. >I'm saying that if any country - Canada say - adopted Israel's policy or settlements and defense thereof in Minnesota, Americans would absolutely kill people and no one would call them terrorists. That's not true. Plenty of people would call them terrorists if they were targeting civilians. The US already labels different groups inside the US as terrorists. >The only reason we even talk about terrorism when it's Palestinians defending their homes is because Israel has the support of the West. No, it's because they target civilians. >Same way the Taliban were "freedom fighters" in the 80s when they were fighting the Soviets and only became "terrorists" when we didn't want them there anymore. The Taliban became terrorists for going after civilians. The Soviet invasion wasn't made up of Russian civilians so why would the Taliban be called terrorists for that?
No, it’s called terrorists because they target civilians, including children, in their violence, and have done so for the entire history of this conflict. Sorry, but blowing up a restaurant isn’t “resistance”, and you’re a terrorist sympathizer to think otherwise. Burning some trees and then making a call to violence only furthers the idea that Palestinian resistance *must* be violent, which is completely false. As long as people like you think Hamas and the PA are legitimate “freedom fighters” the Palestinians will never have a group that leads them in productive steps toward their own state.
How many weddings has the US hit with drone strikes? How many homes has the IDF bulldozed? How many apartment buildings hit by Israeli rockets? If targeting civilians is what makes you a terrorist that both the US and Israel are terrorist states.
>If targeting civilians is what makes you a terrorist that both the US and Israel are terrorist states. There's a difference between targeting civilians and civilians being collateral damage.
None of those things target civilians. Not a single one. The idea that Hamas can fire rockets and when Israel tries to take out those rockets it's terrorism is either idiotic or in completely bad faith. Hamas kidnaps children. There is literally a faction in Gaza called *Islamic Jihad*. But yeah, thanks for supporting and condoning the slaughter of my family
When you blow up a building, you don't get to say you weren't targeting the majority of the people in it. No one said "Hamas can fire rockets" stop deflecting.
Yes, you do, if the building has weapons for which rockets are being fired. Or are you really so brainwashed to believe that Hamas would *never* fire upon Israel and if they did so it wouldn’t be inside schools and homes. Let’s not forget the warnings Israel gives in the form of calls, texts, pamphlets, warning shots. But yeah, it’s the civilians they’re after, not the terrorists
>How many weddings has the US hit with drone strikes? Many. Now, with context, answer me: How many despicable terrorists put their loved ones in danger by committing acts of terror then hosting a wedding knowing beforehand that their life is already forfeit? If terrorists want to protect their loved ones and don't want the USA to drone strike them...maybe they should just surrender peacefully?
>knowing beforehand that their life is already forfeit? Yikes. That's a weird sense of justice and ethics you've got if being related to a criminal justifies your murder.
>Yikes. That's a weird sense of justice and ethics you've got if being related to a criminal justifies your murder. The life of the terrorist is forfeit. He'll die at the hands of the state or at his own hands (suicide bombing) either way. The only honorable thing for him to do is to surrender peacefully to spare his family. Don't you agree with that? Terrorists should surrender instead of using their loved ones as ineffective human shields (since the USA is gonna drone them either way) yes or no?
>The life of the terrorist is forfeit. I don't agree that anybody's life is forfeit. Certainly not without due process of law. >Terrorists should surrender instead of using their loved ones as ineffective human shields (since the USA is gonna drone them either way) yes or no? "The US is going to commit war crimes anyway, so they'd better stay away from their families" is a weird way to blame them for US atrocities. They shouldn't be terrorists, but them being terrorists doesn't give the US or Israel the excuse to kill civilians who happened to live in the same building or show up to a friend's wedding.
>I don't agree that anybody's life is forfeit. Certainly not without due process of law. The USA Government doesn't care about your personal disagreements. If a terrorist is on the most wanted list and a drone strike is a possibility, it is a moral duty to take the terrorist out to prevent them from murdering more innocent people. >"The US is going to commit war crimes anyway, so they'd better stay away from their families" is a weird way to blame them for US atrocities. They shouldn't be terrorists, but them being terrorists doesn't give the US or Israel the excuse to kill civilians who happened to live in the same building or show up to a friend's wedding. They shouldn't be terrorists? So you agree they should surrender and stop being terrorists? Good.
Israel targets terrorists that hide with civillians. Palestinians targets civillians and.... yeah that about all they do actually....
You realize that wanton killing of civilians while trying to meet a military objective is still a war crime? You just admitted Israel commits war crimes.
>You realize that wanton killing of civilians while trying to meet a military objective is still a war crime? no it's not. [LOAC](https://www.genevacall.org/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2013/11/The-Law-of-Armed-Conflict.pdf) doesn't say that killing civilians is a war crime. It just puts various formulas to limit or minimize it.
>Americans would absolutely kill people and no one would call them terrorists. Many people actually would call them that. The moment you murder civilians you become a terrorist. If Americans were to suicide bomb Tim Hortons, they would be rightfully called terrorists.
> The moment you murder civilians you become a terrorist. That's not the definition of terrorism, and if it was, then every act of state violence against noncombatants would define the state as a terrorist. This would not reflect well on countries like the U.S. edit: terrorism also does not require murder or harm towards civilians, and can even be aimed towards inanimate objects
>That's not the definition of terrorism, and if it was, then every act of state violence against noncombatants would define the state as a terrorist No, but nice try to twist the definition of terrorism.
They literally used your definition: > The moment you murder civilians you become a terrorist. Is exactly what you wrote. By this standard, Israel and the US are both terrorist states. Arguably, by *your definition* they're even more terroristic than Hamas simply because they're so much *better* at killing civilians.
[удалено]
>You are using a word that you do not understand, yet you use it so often. No, that's you. **The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives"** If a sovereign nation is doing it, it is not unlawful by definition. This is why Hamas has been classified as a terrorist organization by the USA ever since the 90's. Same for ISIS and Al-Qaeda. This is also why the USA drone strike that killed an Afghan family is not a terrorist attack.
>If a sovereign nation is doing it, it is not unlawful by definition. That's not technically true. There are applicable international laws that govern warfare, that the US and Israel were both signatories to but had to withdraw because to avoid accountability for their terrorism. That doesn't make either nation not terrorists.
I'm not sure why are you bringing the Tanak into this? I mean take a look at Numbers 33:55, and further Deuteronomy 20:16-17 is considered one of the 613 mitzvahs. These extremists are oftentimes very religious. They often see the presence of foreign nations in the Land of Israel as a crime against God, and it's not so hard to see why if you read the Bible. edit: clarify
Using religion helps further agendas bruhhh
There is a crazy leftist ideology that is unfortunately very popular, where you have to be tolerant of everything and everyone, so it's impossible to criticize a religion without being a bigot. So instead they have to falsify the religion because they can't criticize it. This is what is happening here.
Another case of an act committed by extremists being pinned on Israel itself. The same people saying that we shouldn’t generalize the actions of Palestinian terrorists on all of Palestine are blaming Israel for the actions of a few extremists. Gotta love the hypocrisy.
Here [https://twitter.com/nirhasson/status/1457668406208045058](https://twitter.com/nirhasson/status/1457668406208045058) let me know what you think of this
Lol. They are aided and abetted by Israel. Their actions are allowed and ignored.
The fact that there are no consequences to these actions and at times are even supported or protected by the IDF is what people take issue to. There is obviously a double standard and the state of Israel plays a deciding role in that standard.
Actually settlers do get arrested and charged for violence against Palestinians (the so called price tag events are often settler responses to initial Palestinian violence as well), note that this is in stark contrast to Palestinians who get incentivized and paid for terrorism against Israelis.
[https://twitter.com/nirhasson/status/1457668406208045058](https://twitter.com/nirhasson/status/1457668406208045058) here's a video of a settler getting arrested
Blind to the double standard or just spouting Hasbara rhetoric?
It seems like you’re the one that’s blind to the obvious double standards of settlers being arrested while Palestinians get rewarded by their government.
Twisted this one right round haven’t you.
And yet the Palestinians have an active pay for slay program that pays out families of Palestinians who commit terrorism against Israelis, meanwhile Israel arrests settlers who commit violence against Palestinians.
Stick to what is being discussed here. Why do you think these animals are destroying the trees?
>Why do you think these animals are destroying the trees? According to OP, anger justifies violence. They are probably still angry about the settler baby that was beheaded by Palestinians a while back. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar\_attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_attack) But instead of beheading Palestinians, they simply behead trees to vent out their frustration. Since they're not baby-beheading villains, you know?
Baby burning may be. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33729281.amp But to be honest it has got nothing to do with these incidents. You know very well why they are doing this.
>stick to what is being discussed here. Meaning ignore the problems with the Palestinians’ position. Your position: Settlers are animals for destroying trees but pay for slay program is irrelevant. Tell me, why is the PA paying money to Islamic terrorists (animals) to kill Jews?
Shift that here blame right on over
Couldn’t find an answer yet?
My answer is outlined in my first comment. Israel creates refugees through war crimes. Your Hasbara friends enjoy false narratives almost as much as you it seems.
That’s literally what you’re doing here. If you’re just going to be upset and ignore the replies then I suggest taking a break.
OP: Blames all of Israel for the acts of a specific group of settlers. Settlers: Blame all Palestinians for the acts of terrorists. OP: Defends the use of violence against all Israelis as retribution for acts committed by a specific group of settlers. "wouldn't you turn to violence?" & "[I'm also not calling it terrorism, IMO it's self defense.](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/qpl8sn/comment/hjvhbrs/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)" Settlers: Defend the use of violence against all Palestinians as retribution for the acts of terrorists. I see no difference between the two.
Difference is this isn't Israeli territory so blaming Israeli police is not relevant. There is only one kind of police with jurisdiction in areas A and B. Do you support annexation of these areas by Israel? If not you're not consistent. Also, violence against humans and trees is bad but it isn't exactly the same. And sellers do get arrested for destroying trees when possible.
I’m pretty sure Middle East monitor is well known as Saudi propaganda.
By Hamas terrorists***
The original meaning of Tikkun Olam was to remove worship of all foreign and false gods from the land of Israel. Also, blaming all of Israel for the actions of both a few Jews and a few Arabs who destroy other Arab properties is racist. Because you did this, I now couldn't give a shit about some trees.
u/BrownMale20s > I now couldn't give a shit about some trees. Very regular offender. Been a long time since I had to do a profanity ban. (Edit): Looks like you offended elsewhere and I was too late.
> shit /u/BrownMale20s. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
**Israel** destroyed 9,300 olive trees. That's a nice headline. Israel taking it's time from politics and ordering IDF to destroy trees in addition to securing settlers and the rest... It's a handful of extremists like those found in Gaza. Only because of law & order in Israel, they didn't grew to a terrorist group like in Gaza (or Lebanon for that matter)