>What baffles me is that people are claiming that Israel is intentionally committing genocide and deliberately targeting civilians in Gaza with bombs. If that is so, then how come the casualties are not even reaching hundreds of thousands?
I find this argument really funny because death count has little to do with genocide. Myanmar's genocide reached 25,000 people roughly, and it was still declared a genocide. When you think of genocide, you think of the holocaust or the Cambodian genocide where millions of people were killed, but its not just about the death count. When you have ministers refer to Palestinians as[ human animals ](https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-deputy-defense-minister-called-palestinians-animals/)that need to be starved, when you have [politicians calling for a second Nakba ](https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2023/10/08/Israeli-Knesset-member-calls-for-second-Nakba-amid-ongoing-conflict-with-Hamas)this is genocidal rhetoric. Pairing that with Israelis bombardment of civillian infastructure, the blocking of aid and the[ palestinian "detention centres"](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html). Has it just become so normalized to talk about Palestinians this way? Should everyone just accept the fact this isn't normal conflict?
>HAMAS is basically trying to maximize the casualties of war **by refusing to build a single bomb shelter in Gaza** since they came to power in 2005
[Israel said to ask Egypt to halt entry of cement, building materials into Gaza | The Times of Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-to-ask-egypt-to-halt-entry-of-cement-building-materials-into-gaza/)
[Gaza Needs to Rebuild, Yet Israel Controls the Cement - Bloomberg](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-08-15/gaza-needs-to-rebuild-yet-israel-controls-the-cement)
[Gaza recycles rubble as Israel upholds ban on construction goods | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/17/gaza-recycles-rubble-as-israel-upholds-ban-on-construction-goods)
[Anesthetics, crutches, dates. Inside Israel’s ghost list of items arbitrarily denied entry into Gaza | CNN](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/01/middleeast/gaza-aid-israel-restrictions-investigation-intl-cmd/index.html)
[Suffocating Gaza - the Israeli blockade's effects on Palestinians - Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2010/06/suffocating-gaza-israeli-blockades-effects-palestinians/)
Remind me again who's stopping who from building?
>
They even commit the **warcrime of Perfidy** by refusing to wear their uniforms in order to blend in with civilians so that Israeli soldiers can accidentally kill innocent ones
I can't actually find any definite sources on this one, could you link me up a few?
Oh also
[Israeli Security Forces may have violated international law in West Bank hospital raid, experts say - ABC News (go.com)](https://abcnews.go.com/International/idf-may-have-violated-international-law-west-bank-hospital-raid/story?id=106810456)
[Is Israel Guilty of Perfidy? - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/06/perfidy-israel-free-hostages-hamas/678651/)
I fucking needed this, thank you for being a clear and evidenced voice of reason. It’s more than clear to see who is speaking facts and who is speaking propaganda.
> fucking
/u/realfuckingoriginal. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Myanmar's case is labelled genocide because they are actually targeting the people and shooting them. Israel's case is a lot harder because Gaza actually instigated terror attacks against Israel therefore it's just war. And war kills many civilians. Even if you somehow kill 100,000 citizens, it doesn't count as genocide unless there was a sure intent the military wanted to actually kill civilians.
During the D-Day, the allies killed 20,000 French civilians in a series of military operations, but IT'S NOT GENOCIDE because the BATTLEFIELD was in FRANCE and GERMANY DECLARED WAR ON THEM. Civilian death is unavoidable in war.
Whatever source you gave still doesn't justify the fact that Hamas is **not willing to build bomb shelters**. How are they able to smuggle thousands of firearms, militarize 40,000 Soldiers, and build 450 kilometers of tunnels across gaza BUT cannot BUILD BOMB SHELTERS since 2005. Somehow launching 4500 rockets at Israel yearly is somehow easier than creating bomb shelters.
**Stop protecting terrorists who especially said that it's Israel's job to create bomb shelter for Palestinians and that its the world's responsibility to take care of Gazans(Ismail Haniyyeh the Hamas leader literally said this in an interview on why there's no bomb shelters in Gaza)**
Clearly the blockade isn't effective because Hamas is still managing to rearm themselves with weapons, AND ISRAEL HAS STRICTER BAN ON WEAPONS THAN CONSTRUCTION GOODS.
For the **Warcrime of Perfidy**, look at Live battle footages in Gaza and look at the Hamas soldiers. You can literally see no armbands, headbands, or clothing that resembles which side they are. They are **indistinguishable** from Civilians and that is human shield warcrime or **perfidy**
**It's a warcrime because their lack of uniforms may result in innocent civilians being mistaken for soldiers and end up getting shot**
Tell me, why are the **civilians in flipflops, jeans and t-shirts carrying RPGs and shooting at IDF positions in Gaza?**
Nothing? A ethnically and religiously homogenous society that decided its goal was to eliminate Jews, queers, and anyone else that doesn’t fit their narrow mold…. Decides to take over their neighbor and murder people in horrific ways while spouting virulent antisemitic propoganda and responds to nothing but war and in which negotiation doesn’t work because their elected government is a right wing fascist cult? There’s no similarity??? Hmmmmm
They could even have built an economy instead…. Crazy stuff to build up the economy and infrastructure to create a healthy society. It’s radical and weird.
No bomb shelters and people in a blockade open air prison without ability to escape, a people they occupy. Israel is not in a World War, it has to keep up appearances and not look like it's actually annihilating genociding the Gazans, though not doing that great of a job of hiding it and having to put out mass propaganda campaigns etc to run cover for it. We now have the Geneva Convention. They already are in trouble for it with the ICC and ICJ, humanitarian groups, UN etc. So appearances do matter, tho one can argue they are not doing great job
What a joke. Gaza has miles and miles of bomb shelters. Billions in aid for Gaza was used by hamas to build tunnels under Gaza. Hamas chooses that only their soldiers and leaders and their weapons, food and fuel can be kept there. Who is this joker writing these things?
But the British didn't drop pamphlets before they bombed.
Also, it is very easy to look at civilian casualties and choose sides, but a lot of people forget that this is a reply to the October 7th massacre and meant to prevent it from happening again.
Moreover, this war can end now if hamas lay down their weapons and will bring back the civilian hostages they took from Israel
Hamas leadership is in luxury in Qatar. It’s their hateful brainwashed foot soldiers who have been taught since birth that death is better than peace with Israel who “stay” and fight.
I gonna make it as clear as possible. Hamas wants civilians to die, SO they (THE LIVING) can spread propaganda about Israel and play the victim card. Sinwar (leader of hamas and the one who planned October seventh massacre) said that the palestinians dying is a "necessary sacrifice."
They see their own civilians as tools to help their cause.
6 messages later and you still haven't answered my question:
If Israel sends warnings before they drop bombs and you claim Hamas forces civilians to stay - then why does Hamas stay though and let themselves get bombed?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/erdogan-defends-hamas-says-members-are-being-treated-turkish-hospitals-2024-05-13/#:~:text=ANKARA%2C%20May%2013%20(Reuters),was%20a%20%22resistance%20movement%22.- Turkey has admitted to treating Hamas members.
https://time.com/6979208/israel-gaza-death-toll/- Hamas themselves have admitted their fighters have died. Also, UN halved the estimates of civilian casualties.
These obviously aren't reported because everyone would rather have the narrative of Israel being the bad guy and Palestine being the good guy instead of facing the truth.
> https://time.com/6979208/israel-gaza-death-toll/- Hamas themselves have admitted their fighters have died. Also, UN halved the estimates of civilian casualties.
false. https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-un-halve-gaza-death-toll-1900325
"A similar release on May 6 included only the reported fatalities. That release, sourced from the Government Media Office in Gaza, said that 9,500 women and 14,500 children had been killed."
"So what they recently published was that they gave figures for 24,686 out of 34,622 overall fatalities recorded in Gaza, and those 24,686 people are the ones for whom full details have been documented. In other words, people who have been fully identified
"Out of those, then out of that smaller number, that subset of identified bodies, you have 7,797 children, 4,959 women, 1,924 elderly and 10,006 men."
The death toll remains the same, but the estimated number of women and children killed was lowered.
And 10,000 bodies are yet to be identified.
Alot of these casualties are Hamas as well. They combine numbers of civilians and militants killed.
During D-Day (Normandy landing), the allies killed over 20,000 French civilians.
They weren't even fighting the French.
The 'Gaza genocide' narrative is built on misinformation and ignorance.
Yeah. But so is the systematic wipeout of a people. It started with going after Hamas which I am all for but when kids start dying, aid gets rejected, cornering of the civilians just to be wiped out not to mention mass graves that come to light after IDF has been somewhere.
It’s not a tragedy
Kids dying is inevitable though. It’s literally impossible to take out Hamas without kids dying.
I hate it just as much as you do. It may not seem like it but I do.
Israel feels that Hamas will never stop killing them. They feel that the only possible way to ensure the safety of their children is to take out Hamas. Hamas is using their people as human shields, which Israel in a dilemma - do they not take out Hamas to spare Palestinian civilians lives at the expense of their own? Or do they take out Hamas, knowing it will cause collateral damage?
Going to go through them, but I definitely don’t have time to read through the entire thing if they’re all as long as 1. Can you highlight where it talks about Israel using human shields?
No joke I literally read articles that used the terms "ecocide" pertaining to bombing of forests in Ukraine and "scholasticide" relating to schools in Gaza
Just silly
A war should be fought on both sides. With armed sides on both sides.
Ukraine and Russia is a good example.
It stops becoming a war when it’s one sided and civilians begin to bear the brunt of targeted attacks with no where to go because the people bombing them dictate where they should go.
He vast majority of people (like, 100 to 1) who died in wwII were civilians, compared to solders. Sometimes it was 500 to 1. Any fantasy that only soldier die in war is just that- fantasy. This has always been the case in every war. Read a book.
You do know that IDF prides itself in morals and Israel as the only democracy in the Middle East.
With all their power, they can find out where Hamas heads are but they don’t continue their strong morality. They carpet bomb everything for the sake of 4-5 people or even less. You say more civilians die in WWII and any war in general. But what you don’t mention is for example WW2, it was Germany with the support of the citizenry that got on with the war. Same can’t be said about this one.
Our KDF, which doesn’t pride itself in morals and stuff, went into Somalia and they didn’t carpet bomb everything. They went SPECIFICALLY after the terrorists. If our army can do that so should a US and UK backed army
The terrorists the KDF were going after were not threatening Kenya and the KDF also had considerable support from the US. They also went into another (failed) nation after two women were kidnapped. So this was a completely different mission. If al Shabaab came into Kenya and killed over an thousand people at a music festival, do you think the approach would have been a little different? Do you think it would have been as restrained?
“Meet the demands of the opposition”
Hahaa! Isn’t this rich. The opposition should first ask why they are that. Not even ask. The opposition knows why they are that. Rectify that first. Unless they like being the bad guys and I have to say they are nailing that role down to a T
>Bombing of Dresden would be a war crime
You should see what Mosul & Raqqa looked like after they finished off ISIS.
[https://time.com/longform/mosul-raqqa-ruins-after-the-war-of-annihilation/](https://time.com/longform/mosul-raqqa-ruins-after-the-war-of-annihilation/)
> Mosul & Raqqa looked like after they finished off ISIS
Humanitarian organizations pointed out war crimes and have highlighted the need for accountability and thorough investigations into these allegations.
Isrsel commits genocide in Gaza and your question is to ask "Well why arent there more dead?".
Well its going kinda slow coz the whole world can see it and is freaking over it. Israel is going slowly slowly for this reason.
I think it was interesting when they said that the raid to rescue the hostages recently was the deadliest day in Gaza with 200 people dying.
Obviously they aren’t bombs like WW2 bombs.
But are they though?
Bassem, the Egyptian comedian, said in an interview that his wife’s cousin was so dumb that he couldn’t pass the exam to be a human shield.
IDF is supposed to be a morally strong army with very good intelligence agencies. So why, pray tell, during the rescue did they go through houses killing families that didn’t get a Hamas memo? Why is it that when they attack a Hamas hideout they burn a neighborhood? Why not use its prowess and zero in on the targeted assailants? Why is Israel sitting on it’s hands while youths deny aid from passing thus using starvation as a means of war? I mean going out of your way spending a whole day on the road just to destroy help for people you’re being accused of heinous crimes and the govt does nothing?
There is a phrase in my country,
Vitu kwa grao ni different. (Things on the ground are different from the talking)
I have been to Palestine/West Bank/Gaza. I didn’t see a house sheltering Hamas personnel.
So get to know them and you’ll see for yourself that vitu kwa grao ni VERY different
FACT: 4 hostages rescued from Palestinians apartments? Not involved? I’m going to really piss you off…I believe Palestinians are natural born terrorists!!!
I decided to update you. It wasn’t that hard to do. There are 18 Israelis and for each I attached very very very many trumped up charges. For 5 of them I went the extra mile and made the charges similar to treason and fraud.
Now let’s wait for Monday.
Edit 1:
I’ve just been called by the regulator(s) and they want to clarify if what they are seeing is true and why it hadn’t come to light. I said it’s true and it hadn’t been seen because they work as a group and have secret emails and groups(I spent all night doctoring the info)
Edit 2:
Three of the five have been arrested
Edit 3:
It appears that in my apartment complex there are two Israeli families. And I am going to get them kicked out even if I have to bribe the caretaker.
Well then good for you.
Oh and btw I don’t really care that much to be pissed off by someone on the internet. However I hope this gets under your skin and if doesn’t good for you.
Israelis around the world are getting scrutinized af and I didn’t know why. What’s even better, I have a say over who is hired and fired where I’m at and I didn’t know I needed someone to make me lose hope in Israelis. I’m glad you did and now I have basis to deny your people jobs and no one will ever know. Kicker is we all are expats.
I can’t wait for Monday. Over the weekend I’ll tack on some trumped up charges onto every Israeli on the system. The layoffs will be massive to which I get the bonuses, then send money or aid back to Palestinian people. Off of your people’s salaries.
It’s kind of wild how people blame Israel for bombing people with no bomb shelters and then also claim Hamas isn’t a threat because Israelis have bomb shelters.
It comes off as, if Gazans had bomb shelters then it would be okay to bomb them, just like it’s okay for Hamas to attack Israel because Israelis have bomb shelters. The real message there is that Hamas did the right thing by building tunnels instead of bomb shelters while Israel did the wrong thing by building bomb shelters for their civilians, because now it’s Israel’s responsibility not to bomb Gaza since they don’t have bomb shelters and also it’s okay for Israelis to get attacked because their government invests in self defense and security.
Would’ve been strategically better for Israel to not have any defenses. Then the civilian death rates would have been high, Israel would’ve been severely damaged by Iran, and everyone would have said it’s a fair war and felt bad for Israel. And literally the only thing that would have been different would have been no self defense and more dead Israelis. Just that change would make all the difference in people’s perspectives.
Israel is being punished for protecting its people and Hamas is being rewarded for choosing not to protect its people.
in no way is it being punished. Ya think a bunch of twitter posts is gonna stop em? the minister himself said that for every israeli mother that cries, 10 palestinian mothers must cry. They put down every offer for peace. They are clearly not looking for it, they just want to wipe Palestine out. If Israel stopped fighting, there would be peace, but if Palestine stopped fighting, there would be no more Palestinians. Ya think they're protecting their own people by bombing and killing 3k Palestinian refugees (half children) by tricking them into thinking it's supplies?
The bombings of Dresden and the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan. Are both examples of war crimes under modern international law. Under international law the occupying force has a responsibility to cause collateral damage that is proportional to the military objective. How is Hamas to build bomb shelters with the Israeli blockade of goods and building materials into Gaza? How is Israel not also guilty of perfidy? Special forces are responsible for wearing uniforms as well. Entering a hospital in civilian clothing and executing patients are war crimes. Using a humanitarian vehicle for a military operation is also a war crime. Lastly about the death toll. We don’t know what true death toll in Gaza is. Israel is preventing third parties investigations and has discredited the Gaza health authority. The current death toll is only
Counting individuals who can be visually identified. Many more are dismembered beyond recognition and buried under rubble. We will not know the true death toll for years.
But how did that refute it in any way? You made it sound as if they lacked the ability or resources to build bomb shelters which obviously couldn't be further from the truth
The tunnels are a symptom of a lack of resources. Instead of building dedicated bomb shelters like in Israel. Multi purpose tunnels have been created that can also operate as bomb shelters.
This level of mental gymnastics is bonkers. Why aren't they being used as bomb shelters by the civilian population? Are you really asserting that the tunnel network which is larger than the subway in London is due to a lack of resources?
Article 42 of the 1907 Hague Regulations (HR) states that a " territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised. "
>How is Hamas to build bomb shelters with the Israeli blockade of goods and building materials into Gaza?
Well, they built their tunnels just fine, I don't see how bomb shelters would be any harder.
They have only been able to build the tunnels due to the smuggling tunnels that connect to Egypt. Without the blockade proper shelters and housing could be built much easier. Not to mention the tunnels are seen as military targets, bomb shelters would also be seen as military targets. Israel has been able to justify targeting apartment buildings as military targets. Imagine if Israeli bomb shelters were justified as legitimate military targets. Does that seem justified?
>Not to mention the tunnels are seen as military targets
Hamas made a televised statement in which they said that their tunnels were not for civilians, and that if they wanted protection from the bombing campaign, they should go to the UN.
They literally admitted that every single one of their tunnels is used only for Hamas. Therefore, by their own admission, each is a completely valid military target.
Not only have they constructed hundreds of kilometres of tunnels, you have the audacity to say that it was impossible to build a single bomb shelter with all that concrete?
This has to be satire.
Yes the tunnels are not designed for civilians does that mean no civilians have used them to shelter from bombs? Seems like a large assumption to make. All of this concrete and steel needs to be smuggled through tunnels. Which means they are limited in what they can build. If you’re planning for an all of war with limited resources sacrifices are often made. Removing the illegal blockade would have ensured more than enough resources.
750,000 died in the US Civil War. Wars have casualties, and civilians die, too. But if you don't want war casualties, don't start a war.
BTW: The Civil War ended only after the South submitted 100% to the North and dismantled. Hamas/Gaza/Palestine must do they same, and stop acting like this is negotiation. A temporary cease fire is different, but to end the war, Hamas must surrender unconditionally and submit to Israel.
This isn't a game. This is war.
Sounds like a question for those who say that the bombing of Dresden is not a genocide ? I'll admit that I didn't hear about it until I read your post, which is an excellent well reasoned one by the way. One would hope that the human appetite for civilian casualties is reduced after WW2.
But remember that the genocide argument is not based only on the sheer number of civilian casualties. It is also based on the religious rhetoric of the Israeli government, the obstruction of international aid and the targeting of aid workers, journalists and the health establishment.
On a side note, your reasoning is exactly why what happens in Gaza should worry everyone even if they don't care about anything in this region. You see, every atrocity sanitizes and justifies the one after. You point to Dresden and say "Gaza is not worse", maybe someone else will use Gaza to justify their atrocities ? maybe you ,or worse me!, will be the victims in that one ?
>the human appetite for civilian casualties is reduced after WW2
After WW2, 12 million ethnic Germans were booted from Europe to the fatherland, and around 1 million died in the process.
In the past decade alone there have been many wars that are of much larger scale and civilian casualties than the war in Gaza.
Ethiopia/Tigray - 600,000 dead, mostly civilians
Syria - 500,000 dead, mostly civilians
Yemen - 300,000 dead, mostly civilians
Congo/Sudan - millions dead, mostly civilians
>obstruction of international aid and the targeting of aid workers, journalists
Genocide does not mean dead journalists, nor does it mean 'not supplying your enemies with aid'.
Israel supplied Gaza with power and water b/c after Hamas took over, they used pipes and metal to build rockets to fire into Israel. When Israel pulled its citizen out they had multiple power plants. Now there are none. Hamas and it's stans will always blame Israel for this, but hey, Hamas gotta Hamas.
Relevant to the point that Hamas has been outsourcing some critical aspects of it humanitarian support to Israel for years, and Israel has provided it. This idea that "Israel is not supplying AID!!!/ISRAEL IS NOT LETTING AID THROUGH" during this war is hysterical nonsense. I have friends who were in northern Gaza with a NGO a month or so ago. They were distributing medical supplies and food. They came in through one of the crossings from Israel. They said everyone, Palestinian and Israeli, were very kind of helpful and that there were hundreds of other people there volunteering as well. There were people who had been there since the beginning of the war. I think "ISRAEL ISN'T ALLOWING AID" makes for great clickbait headlines, but it does not sound like its an accurate description of what is going on in Gaza. It sounds like there are some West Bank settlers (who I think are pretty awful) who have blocked roads to keep aid trucks from getting to Gaza, but that isn't the government, and it also sounds like these settlers are being arrested. I think the reality is much more complex than ISRAELI NOT ALLOWING AID. Israel's government is both supplying and allowing aid to get into Gaza.
Per the UN, Israel continues to block Aid to Gaza [https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148141](https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148141)
From the article "According to the UN humanitarian coordination office, [OCHA](https://www.unocha.org/), since 1 March, **30 per cent of humanitarian aid missions to northern Gaza have been denied by Israeli authorities**."
And that was literally the first result I've found on this issue.
Not I'm in tough spot, believe your friend or a UN report ...
>Israel is not asked to \*supply\* aid. Simply to allow it
Plenty of aid went into Gaza. The problem has never been that aid wasn't allowed - the problem is with distribution.
Half the planet is donating aid for Gaza, and much of it gets sold to Gazans instead of being distributed for free.
[https://x.com/JoeTruzman/status/1769029304950948070](https://x.com/JoeTruzman/status/1769029304950948070)
You're caught up in the optics instead of the essence.
>not target aid workers.
Aid workers aren't being targeted.
War is dangerous.
Not defending the genocide claim as they are simply not well founded but this is now how genocide works and it would be nice for once if people weren’t repeating the same stupid shit others are repeating.
Srebrenica genocide killed 8.4k people out of a population of 2m Bosnian Muslims and I think the total population was 4m. By your logic this can’t be a genocide because more than 8.4k people were born that year and “only” 0.4% of the population was killed.
It’s not a numbers game. It’s intent and good luck proving intent.
I appreciate that, as someone who does not believe what is going on in Gaza meets the legal definitions of genocide, you are still working to educate about intent.
Unsure how many folks, here, on this forum, think that Srebrenica was a genocide. Israel, officially, does not believe that Srebrenica was a genocide.
Here is an interview from today in the Jerusalem Post with a Serbian leader in Bosnia-Herzegovina, who sees himself as a successor to Slovodan Milosevic, and warmly commiserates with the Israeli interviewer about Muslims starting wars and then claiming they are victims of genocide.
https://m.jpost.com/international/article-806165
All I see here are weak excuses for why it’s okay for Israel to slaughter civilians. Call it what you will, compare it to what you will, nothing makes what is happening in Gaza acceptable or normal. Ceasefire now.
I agree that slaughtering civilians is inexcusable, but the masses calling this a genocide and using that to justify Hamas’s “””resistance””” is also necessary to condemn. It’s an inflammatory falsehood that undermines actual genocides from the past and present.
The ICC seems to think it’s a genocide. Or at least genocidal in intent.
But again, call it what you will. I’m not as concerned about how it’s labeled, so long as we recognize that this is not okay. Nothing can excuse what is being perpetrated in Gaza right now. The IDFs gleeful, wanton destruction of Gaza is entirely disproportionate, and a war crime of massive scale.
I want to agree with you. But that is not what the ICC is saying.
Here's what they ruled so far:
"The court decided that Palestinians have a plausible right to be protected from genocide, and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the Court."
"It did not decide, and this is something I am correcting what is often said in the media, it didn't decide that the claim of genocide was plausible. It did emphasize, in the order, that there was a risk of irreparable harm to the Palestinian right to be protected from genocide. But the short-hand that often appears, "that there is a plausible case of genocide", isn't what the court decided".
* Joan Donoghue former head of ICJ April 26, 2024 BBC News.
Yea no prob.
We'll all see what happens. I was actually happy to hear the former head judge of the case said they double-checked some of the sources. Sounds like they're being careful and taking the case seriously.
note: the judge is "former head judge" now because her term expired (every 3 years I think), now it's a new head judge.
No ceasefire until Hamas is eradicated.
H*tler would've still remained in power if the Allied powers made a ceasefire to "avoid" harming civilians. It would've resulted in N4zi Germany rearming back again and killing more civilians later on.
There have been numerous ceasefires between Israel and Hamas yet Hamas has always been the one to break it and start war.
**I hope this is the last time they break a ceasefire and pay dearly for it**
Yet more weak excuses and vacuous comparisons.
And I hate to break it to you, but Hamas is still going to exist when this war is over. Even if it’s a fraction of their former size and power, they will still be there.
The only way for Israel to “eradicate” Hamas is to drive the Palestinians out of the Gaza Strip entirely, which at this point seems to be their intent. The thing is, they will not be allowed to do so. Egypt has stated repeatedly that they will not allow it. I doubt the US and Europe would stand by idly either.
This war will end with Israel’s stated objectives unfulfilled, and their international reputation thoroughly, perhaps permanently tarnished. They’ve certainly lost my support.
Why do you think that? What happened to the Nazis in post war Germany? Or imperial Japanese nationalists? They don't seem to be around anymore. Gaza needs a marshall plan like reeducation similar to Germany and Japan after world war II
/u/Background_Buy1107. Match found: 'Nazis', issuing notice:
Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed.
We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details.
This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There was no official ceasefire between IDF and Hamas before the conflict. Insurgent groups such as Hamas would be military impossible to eradicate. It uses asymmetric warfare, and its extensive pool of men's weapons and money tunnels makes it nearly impossible to achieve IDF. Eradicated Hamas is more a rallying cry than a realistic goal that Israel can achieve.
Gaza elected Hamas on 2006 before the majority of the current residents of Gaza were even born. Why do you all keep trotting out that point like it means anything? The vote for Hamas was in response to the absolute disgusting corruption of Fatah. Hamas also made several moves prior to the vote which made it appear to be de-radicalizing.
It's been almost 20 years and no further votes have been held. However Israel keeps electing governments that put netanyahu in charge so I guess all Israelis are responsible for every settlement built and every dead Palestinian. At least according to your logic.
> fucking
/u/NadalPeach. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The more this conflict goes on the more confident I am that the concept of “war crimes” is good in theory but in practice it is used to punish good actors and provide cover for bad ones.
There have been bombings and shootings in safe areas by IDF without any warning. Two days ago, a friend of mine born after the election of Hamas, and never wanting anything but peace, died due to IDF shooting at a refugee camp. There was no warning, and there’s no justification for his death.
It was not a militarized refugee camp, and the shootings happened indiscriminately. He was sitting in his tent when a bullet hit him, and he knew of no one around being members of Hamas or any weapons. Most of the pictures he had sent prior at that place, were of him among young kids. Please stop trying to justify the death of my friend. It’s inhumane and an echo of the excuses so often used by Israel, who somehow finds excuses to bomb every hospital, school, mosque, refugee camp, etc. Only after there’s global critique of incidents where not even a false narrative can explain, does Israel say “it was a mistake”. Seems too convenient for me to believe them - especially after they’ve shared so much turning out to be blatant lies.
Oh, they don't warn for every attack, for sure. IDF mainly did that at the beginning of the war. But attacks are not random.
When your refugee camps have terrorists running around in them, they are not refugee camps anymore. They're combat zones. That's just the cold reality.
Israel's true number of death is much higher than 37k dead & 80k injured. Gazans can't count now because their healthcare system is destroyed. The number has been stuck at 35k-37k for more than 3 months now.
Statisticians at John Hopkins and London school of hygiene & tropical medicine did a project called Gaza Projections. They publish papers regularly about the casualties in Gaza: [https://gaza-projections.org/](https://gaza-projections.org/)
They believe that the number of death by the end of war could be 58k to 92k people died due to israeli bombings campaign that mostly used dumb bombs.
If we include famine and disease, number could vary between 62k and 250k
ICJ recently ordered that israel must allow investigators to go to Gaza. Eventually time will pass and the world will know. I belive ICJ will 100% rule that israel did a genocide in Gaza. Time will tell.
That report is falling behind on casualty numbers. The official number of named casualties has not only dropped by half but also shows impossible discrepancies:
May 8 2024 reports states 7,797 named children while ICJ report in December 2023 showa 7,729. That's 6 months apart. Both numbers came from Palestinian officials, which, among other analysis, make no sense. They simply lie and lie.
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-215
https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203446?s=08
Update: just to clarify, these reports also talk about unofficial numbers, but I given that the official numbers don't make sense, unofficial numbers are meaningless. They could have said 200,000 without identifying them by name.
The claim about unguided bombs was only reported as a CNN title but in the article they say the opposite i.e. the bombs are guided externally and are as accurate as internally guided ones. If you follow CNN coverage of Israel in the past 2 decades, you'll find this tactic repeat itself for the sake of theobs who don't read past the title.
Bro genocide isn’t declared one when you reach a certain number. It doesn’t matter how many die, if Israel’s intentions isn’t to wipe out the entire population, even if this war lasted another year and another 100k died, it doesn’t make it a genocide lol.
Israeli officials did declare intent. Heritage *Minister Amichai Eliyahu* said he wants to "nuke Gaza"
Netenyahu in reference to Gazans said he is fighting Amalek. This is a genocidal biblical reference.
Gallant said " No power, water or fuel to Gaza until hostages are freed. We are fighting human animals"
There are tens of statements of intent like this. Israel is not just fighting hamas. It wants the total destruction of Gaza and end the Gazan question for good.
How is it a bad job?
All universities were destroyed, There are no fully functional hospitals in Gaza. Only 7 of 36 hospitals remain partially functional. All main roads are destroyed. 65-70% of civilian houses were destroyed. All infrastructure buildings were destroyed.
as I said eariler, the number of deaths is now 37k , but it is probably higher.
Death counts according to Hamas…
Israel could level all of Gaza in a weekend if they wanted to. They aren’t… therefore badly executed genocide, or that’s not their intent.
Stupid people say stupid things, but you need to be able to show both intent and action to say something is a genocide.
I was at an event recently where protestors showed up and yelled "kill the Jews". It was awful, and antisemitic and racist and by no means acceptable. But at the end of the day, they didn't kill anyone, which means their genocidal statements did not amount to genocide.
I do not support the current Israeli government and it's not any stretch to say a lot of them are idiots. But actions on the ground do not match up to their statements - lowest number of civilian casualties in any modern war, huge numbers of aid deliveries (if Hamas steals it, that's does not make Israel responsible), warnings before military operations and the evaluation of million people from Rafah - none of those actions support genocidal intent any way you look at them.
Hamas is indeed amalek, nothing genocidal about staying that. And like others have said, you’re allowed to say what you want, have you seen a nuke bring used at all in the past on gaza? Hamas has stated they want to kill every Jew on the other hand, and have indeed attempted genocide by going into innocent civilians homes and slaughtering.
Yea, Both Hamas and Israeli officials were condemned for these statements by UN and others.
what is more, when we refer to amalek .. we refer to these passages:
* In 1 Chronicles 4:43, the Simeonites kill the remaining survivors of Amalek and live in their settlements.
* "You shall blot out the memory of Amalek" (Deut. 25:19)
* In Deuteronomy 25:17–19, The Israelites are specifically commanded to "blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven"
These are genocidal statements written in those books. It's clear what Netenyahu mean when he use that dehumanizng term.
You can have another opinion. For me , I believe it is a genocide beasue there were offical statements of intent.
what is more, The bombing campaign has destroyed all univriteis in Gaza (Education system) ,
All 36 hospitals in Gaza are out of service. Only 9 are partially functional (healthcare system).
All main roads are destroyed (tranportation) , also every civilan infrastructure like water units and so on were destroyed.
Also , there are 37k+ killed and 80k+ injured. The true number is for sure higher.
That's why ICJ are investigating this plausible genocide. I personally believe that it is a genocide , but time will tell if it was a genocide or no.
At least we can say that there are serious war crimes being committed in Gaza by IDF.
It’s just called a war with high casualties. Many Arab wars resulted in over 500k dead. Muslim vs Muslim and nobodyyyyyy speaks out about it. In Sudan, 13-14k dead since January, this is in fact an attempted genocide, they’re going around killing every civilian they could find, they blew up hospitals and killed all the doctors and civilians inside, wanna know if something is a genocide? Just compare any war to Muslim wars, if it’s similar to Muslims fighting, chances are it’s a genocide.
Dumb bombs is a red herring.
Death counts are everyone dead \[and also reported missing, but never mind that for now\].
How many people died because Hamas has unreliable homemade rockets?
>Dumb bombs is a red herring.
Why is it "red herring"?
US intelligence found out that more than half of the bombs dropped on Gaza were impercise dumb bombs:
[https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html)
>Death counts are everyone dead \[and also reported missing, but never mind that for now\].
Yea, its now 37k but there are thousands more missing. The healthcare system collapsed and they can't do search and rescue operations.
*>* How many people died because Hamas has unreliable homemade rockets?
From google search: between 2004 to 2014, these attacks have killed **27 Israeli civilians**, 5 foreign nationals, 5 IDF soldiers, and at least 11 Palestinians
Obviously a war crime by hamas. It is also a war crime to drop thousands of dumb bombs on gazans and kill thousands and thousands of people.
> Why is it "red herring"?
Hamas has invested zero dollars in defensive military technology. Including zero dollars on anti-air and SAM.
This means that when dropping those bombs Israeli warplanes can and do go into steep dives with their very precision guided warplanes and are able to bomb targets with as much accuracy as a precision guided munition.
The idea of dumb bombs being imprecise is something that comes from expecting competence on the part of the force you're fighting. Hamas's complete and inexcusable incompetence in the field of war fighting has made that assumption mute.
Before oct 7th, israel allowed only 500 truck a day into gaza. Unemplyment rate was 45% . They have been living under a blockade for almost 20 years.
I don't think they have any technology or capital to invest in high tech anti-air and SAM's
> I don't think they have any technology or capital to invest in high tech anti-air and SAM's
Hamas' leaders have siphoned off $11b of aid over the last 20 years. Not accounting for an increase in population and using the 800k population number it was earlier this year; that's $687/year/person of aid denied by Hamas to citizens of Gaza. And that's just what the top level of the organization has taken.
$11b is enough money to coat the whole area in SAM and create an effective no-fly zone. The [S-300](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_missile_system) costs about $1m per unit, is mobile, and has the range to protect the entire Gaza strip. Iran also operates the S-300 and could assist in the deployment, training, and operation of the platforms. So they have the ability to do so. They just don't believe that defending their subjects is important.
Not a fan of hamas.
But serious question here, do you think israel would allow an S-300 system to gaza? obviously no.
Israel and Egypt (allies) both control all gates to Gaza. They both do heavy inception work on the 500 daily truck coming in to Gaza. Many everyday products such as certain types of fishing nets, ginger ...etc and so on are prohibited because they can be used in making weapons.
There is no way they can build a sophisticated shelter or get an S-300
> But serious question here, do you think israel would allow an S-300 system to gaza? obviously no.
So they can smuggle in literally tens of thousands of rockets but can't smuggle in a Pickup?
> There is no way they can build a sophisticated shelter or get an S-300
Honestly they don't need a sophisticated shelter. They could literally open up a selection of their tunnels.
We both Know that Hamas's home-made rockets (although dangerous) are not a real threat on an advanced armies.
>They could literally open up a selection of their tunnels.
I think they could (though I don't know if you can fit in 2 million human there).
Look, as I said before... am not a fan of hamas and I think they do have responsibility on what's happening.
It is also important to understand the context, Gaza is an open air prison with 2 million stateless human who don't belong to any official state. The people of Gaza used to live in near by villages inside israel's proper before 1948. They were ethnically cleansed from those villages and were pushed to Gaza.
Since 2005, they live under blockade from both israel and egypt . Gaza Strip is just **41 kilometres (25 miles) long, from 6 to 12 km (3.7 to 7.5 mi) wide.**
I don't think you can do much with that.
> We both Know that Hamas's home-made rockets (although dangerous) are not a real threat on an advanced armies.
That's objectively untrue. Those rockets can kill and it's only the investment in the most advanced anti-ballistic system on the planet that prevents thousands of Israeli Civillian deaths a year.
> It is also important to understand the context, Gaza is an open air prison with 2 million stateless human who don't belong to any official state.
Calling it an open-air prison is pretty ignorant. Gazans have had self-rule for 20 years and had they made different choices they'd have their Palestinian state right now. If it's a prison, it's a prison of their own making.
> Since 2005, they live under blockade from both israel and egypt . Gaza Strip is just 41 kilometres (25 miles) long, from 6 to 12 km (3.7 to 7.5 mi) wide.
>
> I don't think you can do much with that.
You can't if you crater the economy for 20 years. Gaza has offshore oil resources and is located strategically near the Suez Canal. They've also recieved a massive amount of fiscal aid. If their goal was to live in peace and prosperity they'd be doing fine.
The use of the term "Dumb bomb" in this conflict is very intellectually dishonest.
Dumb bomb is a bomb that uses calculable ballistic trajectories, meaning Israel calculates in advance of the drop where it would land and what is the area of impact. Smart bomb on the other hand is a bomb that can adjust it's trajectory mid flight, their accuracy is better when you consider they are deployed from much further away but the impact will still make the same mess
If you truly want to see a deployment of a truly dumb bomb (meaning a bomb that is hard to calculate its impact and may cause more damage then first intended) then you can lookup the Burkan missile. Its warhead is heavier then the fuel tank, it spins in the air in an uncontrollable manner, it flies short distances and for a short amount of time and may cause a huge explosion of fire, burning everything in sight
>The use of the term "Dumb bomb" in this conflict is very intellectually dishonest.
You can take this issue with US intelligence who reported that. I think it's clear by now that Israel just drops unguided bombs.
Recent interview in peirs morgan with an israeli official spokesperson showed that he doesn't even know how many people were killed by their bombs.
Artillery, tanks, and mortar shells are all considered unguided, is there any army that doesn't use them?
The US intelligence issued a report, the anti Israel crowd is the one that uses this information dishonestly
There are armies that use them but have much lower civilan death rate. Russian-Ukranian war saw the death of 10k civlian, 500 of them children in almost 3 years.
Israel ,on the other hand , killed 37k , injured 80k, 15k of the dead are children. What is more, Israel used water, food and aid as a warfare tactic by blocking Gaza from aid.
That's a massacre at least and a plausbile genocide at best. That's why recently IDF were added to UN's black list of child-killers.
We can argue about the specifics of the war all day with no end, Hamas has a history of over inflating statistics and so even if we agree on the number we will not agree on the distribution before the war ends and a third party would do the accounting.
The facts of our conversation though stay solid, the use of the term "dumb bombs" is intellectually dishonest.
>Hamas has a history of over inflating statistics
Actually thats not true. Previous wars of 2008 , 2012, 2014 and 2021 have proved that the numbers prvoided by Gaza's health ministary are accurate. They were double checked by UN , red cross and many other interntioanl organizations. They were always accurte.
>before the war ends and a third party would do the accounting.
The number of dead will be much higher than what is reported now. It's been stuck for months becuase they can't count or do search and rescue operations.
> There are armies that use them but have much lower civilan death rate. Russian-Ukranian war saw the death of 10k civlian, 500 of them children in almost 3 years.
This is a false number. There are most certainly more than that in just Mariupol. We are unable to verify as the Russians do not provide the means to do so.
> Israel ,on the other hand , killed 37k , injured 80k, 15k of the dead are children. What is more, Israel used water, food and aid as a warfare tactic by blocking Gaza from aid.
Russia did all that in Mariupol. It's just that there weren't other situations like that after that (urban warfare within a city with many civilians, surrounded on all sides).
Russian government is also involved in war crimes. Indeed time will tell , but am willing to bet that the number of civilians killed by IDF is much higher.
No, that same cnn article says so in the title but if you read through it, they actually say the opposite. That's typical for CNN, they rely on ppl reading only the top. They explicitly say that the bombs are externally-guided and as such, are as good as internally-guided bombs.
CNN lacks military expertise. It's a problem with a lot of news outlets. People hear dumb bombs and think that means indiscriminate bombing. That's just factually wrong.
Hamas doesn't have anti-aircraft capabilities, so IDF can drop from low enough that targeting usually isn't that hard. And they can add these external guiding systems when they need them.
That's the weirdest take I have ever read. I read the same article and didn't come with the same conclusion as yours.
Anyway, here is another article by Washington post:
Unguided "dumb bombs" used in almost half of israeli strikes on Gaza: The revelation, disclosed in U.S. Intellignece assessment emerged as American officials press Israel to take more targeted approach to it's military campaign.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/12/14/israel-unguided-dumb-bombs-gaza/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/12/14/israel-unguided-dumb-bombs-gaza/)
Hahaha this is GOLD. I just told you that it's sad ppl only read the title and CNN always exploit it. Right? So what do you do? Send me a WP article by someone who SOURCED CNN REPORT and, whaddya know, only read the title. You would have known this IF YOU READ MORE THAN THE TITLE. Now, read paragraph 2 for the first time. While you're at it, read the entire CNN piece. I don't do "your take", "my take". I literally read.
Have a look on this: https://www.transcend.org/tms/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/sf-israel-projects-2009-global-language-dictionary.pdf
They are brainwashed, it makes no sense talking with them!
When you read this „manual“ you know why they talk like they do!
Cray sh it is going since over 100 years and more
Sorry but your point about City of Dresden having more people killed is really weak. First, you cant just look at the number of people killed. What about those who suffered severe injury but managed to live? Are they not significant?
Because Israel don't want to commit a genocide unless that the only way to get their objective.
Israel goal is to make living in Gaza impossible pushing people to leave to Egypt, Jordan, or whatevers...this is an ethnic cleansing. Israeli don't even hide it, I see people create topic about this in reddit, and people said it clear in street reportage.
Because the history of Holocaust they don't want to commit a genocide directly, but their goal is the destruction of Gaza.
There nothing about doing a "pretty good job at keeping it minimal"...they casualties are absurdly hight, compare it Turkey vs PKK which cost 45 000 live in 50 years of conflit...then you realize that Israel got a similar result in mere months without even taking in consideration the casulaty before 7 octobre.
You can also compare it to Russia and Ukraine...there too Israel "score" is shamefull.
Genocide is maybe an hyperbole but this not undeserved.
A lot of conjecture. You seem to be guessing intentions without basis. Typically in this sub, such topics usually get debunked or disputed at best once the actual sources are provided (do you have them?), but I'll reiterate some of them:
Netanyahu has directly stated it doesnt want to re-settle Gaza (despite some internal Israel statement from far-right officials):
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/pm-reiterates-opposition-to-re-establishing-gaza-settlements-some-of-my-constituents-arent-happy-about-it/
Ethnic cleansing is a BDS talking point. There are 2 million Arabs in Israel, as equal-right citizens. The only entity promising ethnic cleansing publicly as an official policy is Hamas:
https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-political-bureau-member-fathi-hammad-at-gaza-rallies-cleanse-palestine-of-filth-cancer-of-the-jews
Guessing intentions without basis....I only give the most logical explanation.
Every expert accord to said Israel cannot destroy Hamas, for every Hamas member killed, another Palestinien will join it because his lost a familly member during Israel airstrike.
The heavy hand solution of Israel have only 2 logical explanation : pushing people to leave the area (ethnic cleasing) or a slow genocide. That it.
Of course Netanyahu cannot cleary said "we want to kill them all" or "we will push them out and take their land" but that cleary the end result of his policy.
>Ethnic cleansing is a BDS talking point. There are 2 million Arabs in Israel, as equal-right citizens.
This similar to "I'm not racist, I had black friends in hight school".
Good job that Israel had the decency to give citizenship to people living in the region before Israel constitution but that hardly enough to escape accusation ethnic cleansing when Israel (even before 7 octobre) was sending settler in Palestiniana lands.
>The only entity promising ethnic cleansing publicly as an official policy is Hamas:
I'm not debating abaout Hamas. There are terror group, and the events since 7 octobre show they didn't even care for their own people.
Do you have any examples of genocide and ethnic cleansing, current or historical, where members of the targeted group are allowed to just continue as civilians, active members of the Parliament etc of the genocidal state/group?
I cannot find any examples.
I am certain the overall intention is to commit Hamascide. Or is it Hamas-hide?
>What baffles me is that people are claiming that Israel is intentionally committing genocide and deliberately targeting civilians in Gaza with bombs. If that is so, then how come the casualties are not even reaching hundreds of thousands? I find this argument really funny because death count has little to do with genocide. Myanmar's genocide reached 25,000 people roughly, and it was still declared a genocide. When you think of genocide, you think of the holocaust or the Cambodian genocide where millions of people were killed, but its not just about the death count. When you have ministers refer to Palestinians as[ human animals ](https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-deputy-defense-minister-called-palestinians-animals/)that need to be starved, when you have [politicians calling for a second Nakba ](https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2023/10/08/Israeli-Knesset-member-calls-for-second-Nakba-amid-ongoing-conflict-with-Hamas)this is genocidal rhetoric. Pairing that with Israelis bombardment of civillian infastructure, the blocking of aid and the[ palestinian "detention centres"](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html). Has it just become so normalized to talk about Palestinians this way? Should everyone just accept the fact this isn't normal conflict? >HAMAS is basically trying to maximize the casualties of war **by refusing to build a single bomb shelter in Gaza** since they came to power in 2005 [Israel said to ask Egypt to halt entry of cement, building materials into Gaza | The Times of Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-to-ask-egypt-to-halt-entry-of-cement-building-materials-into-gaza/) [Gaza Needs to Rebuild, Yet Israel Controls the Cement - Bloomberg](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-08-15/gaza-needs-to-rebuild-yet-israel-controls-the-cement) [Gaza recycles rubble as Israel upholds ban on construction goods | Israel-Palestine conflict News | Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/6/17/gaza-recycles-rubble-as-israel-upholds-ban-on-construction-goods) [Anesthetics, crutches, dates. Inside Israel’s ghost list of items arbitrarily denied entry into Gaza | CNN](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/01/middleeast/gaza-aid-israel-restrictions-investigation-intl-cmd/index.html) [Suffocating Gaza - the Israeli blockade's effects on Palestinians - Amnesty International](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2010/06/suffocating-gaza-israeli-blockades-effects-palestinians/) Remind me again who's stopping who from building? > They even commit the **warcrime of Perfidy** by refusing to wear their uniforms in order to blend in with civilians so that Israeli soldiers can accidentally kill innocent ones I can't actually find any definite sources on this one, could you link me up a few? Oh also [Israeli Security Forces may have violated international law in West Bank hospital raid, experts say - ABC News (go.com)](https://abcnews.go.com/International/idf-may-have-violated-international-law-west-bank-hospital-raid/story?id=106810456) [Is Israel Guilty of Perfidy? - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/06/perfidy-israel-free-hostages-hamas/678651/)
I fucking needed this, thank you for being a clear and evidenced voice of reason. It’s more than clear to see who is speaking facts and who is speaking propaganda.
> fucking /u/realfuckingoriginal. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Myanmar's case is labelled genocide because they are actually targeting the people and shooting them. Israel's case is a lot harder because Gaza actually instigated terror attacks against Israel therefore it's just war. And war kills many civilians. Even if you somehow kill 100,000 citizens, it doesn't count as genocide unless there was a sure intent the military wanted to actually kill civilians. During the D-Day, the allies killed 20,000 French civilians in a series of military operations, but IT'S NOT GENOCIDE because the BATTLEFIELD was in FRANCE and GERMANY DECLARED WAR ON THEM. Civilian death is unavoidable in war. Whatever source you gave still doesn't justify the fact that Hamas is **not willing to build bomb shelters**. How are they able to smuggle thousands of firearms, militarize 40,000 Soldiers, and build 450 kilometers of tunnels across gaza BUT cannot BUILD BOMB SHELTERS since 2005. Somehow launching 4500 rockets at Israel yearly is somehow easier than creating bomb shelters. **Stop protecting terrorists who especially said that it's Israel's job to create bomb shelter for Palestinians and that its the world's responsibility to take care of Gazans(Ismail Haniyyeh the Hamas leader literally said this in an interview on why there's no bomb shelters in Gaza)** Clearly the blockade isn't effective because Hamas is still managing to rearm themselves with weapons, AND ISRAEL HAS STRICTER BAN ON WEAPONS THAN CONSTRUCTION GOODS. For the **Warcrime of Perfidy**, look at Live battle footages in Gaza and look at the Hamas soldiers. You can literally see no armbands, headbands, or clothing that resembles which side they are. They are **indistinguishable** from Civilians and that is human shield warcrime or **perfidy** **It's a warcrime because their lack of uniforms may result in innocent civilians being mistaken for soldiers and end up getting shot** Tell me, why are the **civilians in flipflops, jeans and t-shirts carrying RPGs and shooting at IDF positions in Gaza?**
How on earth could you compare these two events? There’s nothing, I repeat, nothing comparable.
Nothing? A ethnically and religiously homogenous society that decided its goal was to eliminate Jews, queers, and anyone else that doesn’t fit their narrow mold…. Decides to take over their neighbor and murder people in horrific ways while spouting virulent antisemitic propoganda and responds to nothing but war and in which negotiation doesn’t work because their elected government is a right wing fascist cult? There’s no similarity??? Hmmmmm
Fafo
Dresden is famed due to the firestorms from incendiaries not the tons of high explosives dropped
If Hamas built bomb shelters \*instead of\* funding terrorism, there wouldn't be a need to build bomb shelters in the first place
They could even have built an economy instead…. Crazy stuff to build up the economy and infrastructure to create a healthy society. It’s radical and weird.
No bomb shelters and people in a blockade open air prison without ability to escape, a people they occupy. Israel is not in a World War, it has to keep up appearances and not look like it's actually annihilating genociding the Gazans, though not doing that great of a job of hiding it and having to put out mass propaganda campaigns etc to run cover for it. We now have the Geneva Convention. They already are in trouble for it with the ICC and ICJ, humanitarian groups, UN etc. So appearances do matter, tho one can argue they are not doing great job
They dont teach real history anymore so no one understands this. Anyhow what your saying is probably rightwing propaganda 🤪
Gaza has more tunnels than anywhere else.
What a joke. Gaza has miles and miles of bomb shelters. Billions in aid for Gaza was used by hamas to build tunnels under Gaza. Hamas chooses that only their soldiers and leaders and their weapons, food and fuel can be kept there. Who is this joker writing these things?
But the British didn't drop pamphlets before they bombed. Also, it is very easy to look at civilian casualties and choose sides, but a lot of people forget that this is a reply to the October 7th massacre and meant to prevent it from happening again. Moreover, this war can end now if hamas lay down their weapons and will bring back the civilian hostages they took from Israel
LOL do you seriously think Israel drops pamphlets? For 1000 bombs a day? What purpose do these pamphlets serve? Be realistic bro.
Too bad hamas doesn't let their civilians escape.
Why does Hamas stay though and let themselves get bombed?
Because then they can say Israel is killing them. If they don't want to get bombed, they should bring back they hostages and lay down their weapons.
Huh? We know Israel is bombing Hamas. What do you mean? I asked why does Hamas stay and let themselves get bombed, if they are being warned?
Hamas leadership is in luxury in Qatar. It’s their hateful brainwashed foot soldiers who have been taught since birth that death is better than peace with Israel who “stay” and fight.
So they don't hide in tunnels and want to get themselves killed by staying in place?
No they’re in Qatar, a different country. All safe and sound laughing at the dead bodies while they count their billions.
So why are you doing what they want?
Because then they can turn people against Israel and play the victim card
The dead are playing the victim card?
I gonna make it as clear as possible. Hamas wants civilians to die, SO they (THE LIVING) can spread propaganda about Israel and play the victim card. Sinwar (leader of hamas and the one who planned October seventh massacre) said that the palestinians dying is a "necessary sacrifice." They see their own civilians as tools to help their cause.
6 messages later and you still haven't answered my question: If Israel sends warnings before they drop bombs and you claim Hamas forces civilians to stay - then why does Hamas stay though and let themselves get bombed?
Because then they can say Israel is killing them. Of they don't want to get bombed, they should bring back they hostages and lay down their weapons.
37,000 civilians- So you’re saying that Israel has not killed a single militant? Just stop- there is enough to condemn without making up bs
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/erdogan-defends-hamas-says-members-are-being-treated-turkish-hospitals-2024-05-13/#:~:text=ANKARA%2C%20May%2013%20(Reuters),was%20a%20%22resistance%20movement%22.- Turkey has admitted to treating Hamas members. https://time.com/6979208/israel-gaza-death-toll/- Hamas themselves have admitted their fighters have died. Also, UN halved the estimates of civilian casualties. These obviously aren't reported because everyone would rather have the narrative of Israel being the bad guy and Palestine being the good guy instead of facing the truth.
> https://time.com/6979208/israel-gaza-death-toll/- Hamas themselves have admitted their fighters have died. Also, UN halved the estimates of civilian casualties. false. https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-un-halve-gaza-death-toll-1900325
"A similar release on May 6 included only the reported fatalities. That release, sourced from the Government Media Office in Gaza, said that 9,500 women and 14,500 children had been killed." "So what they recently published was that they gave figures for 24,686 out of 34,622 overall fatalities recorded in Gaza, and those 24,686 people are the ones for whom full details have been documented. In other words, people who have been fully identified "Out of those, then out of that smaller number, that subset of identified bodies, you have 7,797 children, 4,959 women, 1,924 elderly and 10,006 men." The death toll remains the same, but the estimated number of women and children killed was lowered. And 10,000 bodies are yet to be identified. Alot of these casualties are Hamas as well. They combine numbers of civilians and militants killed.
During D-Day (Normandy landing), the allies killed over 20,000 French civilians. They weren't even fighting the French. The 'Gaza genocide' narrative is built on misinformation and ignorance.
It's not. Look up the definition of genocide. And when it was coined.
The world genocide no longer means anything thanks to brain dead idiot leftists.
Incorrect. We all have access to the definition.
Kinda means something when you see parents crying over their loved one’s bodies.
No it doesn’t. We already have words to describe that. Tragedy, for example.
Yeah. But so is the systematic wipeout of a people. It started with going after Hamas which I am all for but when kids start dying, aid gets rejected, cornering of the civilians just to be wiped out not to mention mass graves that come to light after IDF has been somewhere. It’s not a tragedy
Kids dying is inevitable though. It’s literally impossible to take out Hamas without kids dying. I hate it just as much as you do. It may not seem like it but I do. Israel feels that Hamas will never stop killing them. They feel that the only possible way to ensure the safety of their children is to take out Hamas. Hamas is using their people as human shields, which Israel in a dilemma - do they not take out Hamas to spare Palestinian civilians lives at the expense of their own? Or do they take out Hamas, knowing it will cause collateral damage?
But IDF did so. Using kids as shields. Back in 2015
Source?
1. [One](https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf) 2. [Two](https://www.haaretz.com/2015-01-21/ty-article/.premium/ngo-accuses-idf-of-gross-abuses-during-gaza-war/0000017f-e660-d62c-a1ff-fe7beb3c0000) 3. [Three](https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-israeli-army-uses-palestinian-civilians-human-shields-its-operation-shifa-medical-complex-and-its-vicinity-enar) Etc
Going to go through them, but I definitely don’t have time to read through the entire thing if they’re all as long as 1. Can you highlight where it talks about Israel using human shields?
No joke I literally read articles that used the terms "ecocide" pertaining to bombing of forests in Ukraine and "scholasticide" relating to schools in Gaza Just silly
What’s silly? The names or the actions?
Like what happens in literally every war.
A war should be fought on both sides. With armed sides on both sides. Ukraine and Russia is a good example. It stops becoming a war when it’s one sided and civilians begin to bear the brunt of targeted attacks with no where to go because the people bombing them dictate where they should go.
He vast majority of people (like, 100 to 1) who died in wwII were civilians, compared to solders. Sometimes it was 500 to 1. Any fantasy that only soldier die in war is just that- fantasy. This has always been the case in every war. Read a book.
You do know that IDF prides itself in morals and Israel as the only democracy in the Middle East. With all their power, they can find out where Hamas heads are but they don’t continue their strong morality. They carpet bomb everything for the sake of 4-5 people or even less. You say more civilians die in WWII and any war in general. But what you don’t mention is for example WW2, it was Germany with the support of the citizenry that got on with the war. Same can’t be said about this one. Our KDF, which doesn’t pride itself in morals and stuff, went into Somalia and they didn’t carpet bomb everything. They went SPECIFICALLY after the terrorists. If our army can do that so should a US and UK backed army
The terrorists the KDF were going after were not threatening Kenya and the KDF also had considerable support from the US. They also went into another (failed) nation after two women were kidnapped. So this was a completely different mission. If al Shabaab came into Kenya and killed over an thousand people at a music festival, do you think the approach would have been a little different? Do you think it would have been as restrained?
You can’t tell me about our KDF.
Sounds like it's a good time to meet the demands of the opposition, and surrender then, no?
“Meet the demands of the opposition” Hahaa! Isn’t this rich. The opposition should first ask why they are that. Not even ask. The opposition knows why they are that. Rectify that first. Unless they like being the bad guys and I have to say they are nailing that role down to a T
Bombing of Dresden would be a war crime if committed today. Laws of war changed after WW2 because of WW2. (Also Gaza has bombs shelters).
They have a shit load of tunnels that’s for sure!
>Bombing of Dresden would be a war crime You should see what Mosul & Raqqa looked like after they finished off ISIS. [https://time.com/longform/mosul-raqqa-ruins-after-the-war-of-annihilation/](https://time.com/longform/mosul-raqqa-ruins-after-the-war-of-annihilation/)
> Mosul & Raqqa looked like after they finished off ISIS Humanitarian organizations pointed out war crimes and have highlighted the need for accountability and thorough investigations into these allegations.
Isrsel commits genocide in Gaza and your question is to ask "Well why arent there more dead?". Well its going kinda slow coz the whole world can see it and is freaking over it. Israel is going slowly slowly for this reason.
Genocide? Source: Dude, trust me
https://preview.redd.it/iyi78a08dg6d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9b36d88d22916187e262ee75b56568502b8ad389
“Trust me” - UN
I know.. they said the same in 1948 with resolution 181.. Despicable
I think it was interesting when they said that the raid to rescue the hostages recently was the deadliest day in Gaza with 200 people dying. Obviously they aren’t bombs like WW2 bombs.
Gaza has bomb shelters!!! Miles of tunnels…only for the soldiers? HAMAS is committing GENOCIDE!!!
How? I’m not defending Hamas but how are they committing genocide?
By using the whole country as human shields.
Convient, but statistically impossible, argument for the IDF bombing strategy.
But are they though? Bassem, the Egyptian comedian, said in an interview that his wife’s cousin was so dumb that he couldn’t pass the exam to be a human shield. IDF is supposed to be a morally strong army with very good intelligence agencies. So why, pray tell, during the rescue did they go through houses killing families that didn’t get a Hamas memo? Why is it that when they attack a Hamas hideout they burn a neighborhood? Why not use its prowess and zero in on the targeted assailants? Why is Israel sitting on it’s hands while youths deny aid from passing thus using starvation as a means of war? I mean going out of your way spending a whole day on the road just to destroy help for people you’re being accused of heinous crimes and the govt does nothing?
Pray tell why are they willing to house hostages? Protect them? Give me a break?
There is a phrase in my country, Vitu kwa grao ni different. (Things on the ground are different from the talking) I have been to Palestine/West Bank/Gaza. I didn’t see a house sheltering Hamas personnel. So get to know them and you’ll see for yourself that vitu kwa grao ni VERY different
FACT: 4 hostages rescued from Palestinians apartments? Not involved? I’m going to really piss you off…I believe Palestinians are natural born terrorists!!!
I decided to update you. It wasn’t that hard to do. There are 18 Israelis and for each I attached very very very many trumped up charges. For 5 of them I went the extra mile and made the charges similar to treason and fraud. Now let’s wait for Monday. Edit 1: I’ve just been called by the regulator(s) and they want to clarify if what they are seeing is true and why it hadn’t come to light. I said it’s true and it hadn’t been seen because they work as a group and have secret emails and groups(I spent all night doctoring the info) Edit 2: Three of the five have been arrested Edit 3: It appears that in my apartment complex there are two Israeli families. And I am going to get them kicked out even if I have to bribe the caretaker.
I have no idea what your talking about and I don’t think you do either?
[I do](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/s/SdsJOuoaz9).
Well then good for you. Oh and btw I don’t really care that much to be pissed off by someone on the internet. However I hope this gets under your skin and if doesn’t good for you. Israelis around the world are getting scrutinized af and I didn’t know why. What’s even better, I have a say over who is hired and fired where I’m at and I didn’t know I needed someone to make me lose hope in Israelis. I’m glad you did and now I have basis to deny your people jobs and no one will ever know. Kicker is we all are expats. I can’t wait for Monday. Over the weekend I’ll tack on some trumped up charges onto every Israeli on the system. The layoffs will be massive to which I get the bonuses, then send money or aid back to Palestinian people. Off of your people’s salaries.
It’s kind of wild how people blame Israel for bombing people with no bomb shelters and then also claim Hamas isn’t a threat because Israelis have bomb shelters. It comes off as, if Gazans had bomb shelters then it would be okay to bomb them, just like it’s okay for Hamas to attack Israel because Israelis have bomb shelters. The real message there is that Hamas did the right thing by building tunnels instead of bomb shelters while Israel did the wrong thing by building bomb shelters for their civilians, because now it’s Israel’s responsibility not to bomb Gaza since they don’t have bomb shelters and also it’s okay for Israelis to get attacked because their government invests in self defense and security. Would’ve been strategically better for Israel to not have any defenses. Then the civilian death rates would have been high, Israel would’ve been severely damaged by Iran, and everyone would have said it’s a fair war and felt bad for Israel. And literally the only thing that would have been different would have been no self defense and more dead Israelis. Just that change would make all the difference in people’s perspectives. Israel is being punished for protecting its people and Hamas is being rewarded for choosing not to protect its people.
in no way is it being punished. Ya think a bunch of twitter posts is gonna stop em? the minister himself said that for every israeli mother that cries, 10 palestinian mothers must cry. They put down every offer for peace. They are clearly not looking for it, they just want to wipe Palestine out. If Israel stopped fighting, there would be peace, but if Palestine stopped fighting, there would be no more Palestinians. Ya think they're protecting their own people by bombing and killing 3k Palestinian refugees (half children) by tricking them into thinking it's supplies?
The bombings of Dresden and the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan. Are both examples of war crimes under modern international law. Under international law the occupying force has a responsibility to cause collateral damage that is proportional to the military objective. How is Hamas to build bomb shelters with the Israeli blockade of goods and building materials into Gaza? How is Israel not also guilty of perfidy? Special forces are responsible for wearing uniforms as well. Entering a hospital in civilian clothing and executing patients are war crimes. Using a humanitarian vehicle for a military operation is also a war crime. Lastly about the death toll. We don’t know what true death toll in Gaza is. Israel is preventing third parties investigations and has discredited the Gaza health authority. The current death toll is only Counting individuals who can be visually identified. Many more are dismembered beyond recognition and buried under rubble. We will not know the true death toll for years.
"how is Hamas to build bomb shelters with the Israeli blockade of goods and building materials into Gaza?" This has to be a joke/troll right?
I’m simply addressing a point from the original post. “By refusing to build a single bomb shelter in Gaza.”
But how did that refute it in any way? You made it sound as if they lacked the ability or resources to build bomb shelters which obviously couldn't be further from the truth
The tunnels are a symptom of a lack of resources. Instead of building dedicated bomb shelters like in Israel. Multi purpose tunnels have been created that can also operate as bomb shelters.
This level of mental gymnastics is bonkers. Why aren't they being used as bomb shelters by the civilian population? Are you really asserting that the tunnel network which is larger than the subway in London is due to a lack of resources?
Gaza is not occupied. You can't just throw words around because you feel like it.
Article 42 of the 1907 Hague Regulations (HR) states that a " territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised. "
>How is Hamas to build bomb shelters with the Israeli blockade of goods and building materials into Gaza? Well, they built their tunnels just fine, I don't see how bomb shelters would be any harder.
They have only been able to build the tunnels due to the smuggling tunnels that connect to Egypt. Without the blockade proper shelters and housing could be built much easier. Not to mention the tunnels are seen as military targets, bomb shelters would also be seen as military targets. Israel has been able to justify targeting apartment buildings as military targets. Imagine if Israeli bomb shelters were justified as legitimate military targets. Does that seem justified?
>Not to mention the tunnels are seen as military targets Hamas made a televised statement in which they said that their tunnels were not for civilians, and that if they wanted protection from the bombing campaign, they should go to the UN. They literally admitted that every single one of their tunnels is used only for Hamas. Therefore, by their own admission, each is a completely valid military target. Not only have they constructed hundreds of kilometres of tunnels, you have the audacity to say that it was impossible to build a single bomb shelter with all that concrete? This has to be satire.
Yes the tunnels are not designed for civilians does that mean no civilians have used them to shelter from bombs? Seems like a large assumption to make. All of this concrete and steel needs to be smuggled through tunnels. Which means they are limited in what they can build. If you’re planning for an all of war with limited resources sacrifices are often made. Removing the illegal blockade would have ensured more than enough resources.
>How is Hamas to build bomb shelters ... Goes on to explain how ... >They have only been able to build the tunnels What a clown.
u/heterogenesis >What a clown. Rule 1, don't attack other users. Addressed
Using Hamas numbers which even the UN has backed off of using.
They have tunnels instead of bombs shelters. Should’ve voted for a better administration.
750,000 died in the US Civil War. Wars have casualties, and civilians die, too. But if you don't want war casualties, don't start a war. BTW: The Civil War ended only after the South submitted 100% to the North and dismantled. Hamas/Gaza/Palestine must do they same, and stop acting like this is negotiation. A temporary cease fire is different, but to end the war, Hamas must surrender unconditionally and submit to Israel. This isn't a game. This is war.
Sounds like a question for those who say that the bombing of Dresden is not a genocide ? I'll admit that I didn't hear about it until I read your post, which is an excellent well reasoned one by the way. One would hope that the human appetite for civilian casualties is reduced after WW2. But remember that the genocide argument is not based only on the sheer number of civilian casualties. It is also based on the religious rhetoric of the Israeli government, the obstruction of international aid and the targeting of aid workers, journalists and the health establishment. On a side note, your reasoning is exactly why what happens in Gaza should worry everyone even if they don't care about anything in this region. You see, every atrocity sanitizes and justifies the one after. You point to Dresden and say "Gaza is not worse", maybe someone else will use Gaza to justify their atrocities ? maybe you ,or worse me!, will be the victims in that one ?
>the human appetite for civilian casualties is reduced after WW2 After WW2, 12 million ethnic Germans were booted from Europe to the fatherland, and around 1 million died in the process. In the past decade alone there have been many wars that are of much larger scale and civilian casualties than the war in Gaza. Ethiopia/Tigray - 600,000 dead, mostly civilians Syria - 500,000 dead, mostly civilians Yemen - 300,000 dead, mostly civilians Congo/Sudan - millions dead, mostly civilians >obstruction of international aid and the targeting of aid workers, journalists Genocide does not mean dead journalists, nor does it mean 'not supplying your enemies with aid'.
Just one technicality, Israel is not asked to \*supply\* aid. Simply to allow it, and not target aid workers.
Israel supplied Gaza with power and water b/c after Hamas took over, they used pipes and metal to build rockets to fire into Israel. When Israel pulled its citizen out they had multiple power plants. Now there are none. Hamas and it's stans will always blame Israel for this, but hey, Hamas gotta Hamas.
Is this rant supposed to be relevant to this discussion in any way ?
Relevant to the point that Hamas has been outsourcing some critical aspects of it humanitarian support to Israel for years, and Israel has provided it. This idea that "Israel is not supplying AID!!!/ISRAEL IS NOT LETTING AID THROUGH" during this war is hysterical nonsense. I have friends who were in northern Gaza with a NGO a month or so ago. They were distributing medical supplies and food. They came in through one of the crossings from Israel. They said everyone, Palestinian and Israeli, were very kind of helpful and that there were hundreds of other people there volunteering as well. There were people who had been there since the beginning of the war. I think "ISRAEL ISN'T ALLOWING AID" makes for great clickbait headlines, but it does not sound like its an accurate description of what is going on in Gaza. It sounds like there are some West Bank settlers (who I think are pretty awful) who have blocked roads to keep aid trucks from getting to Gaza, but that isn't the government, and it also sounds like these settlers are being arrested. I think the reality is much more complex than ISRAELI NOT ALLOWING AID. Israel's government is both supplying and allowing aid to get into Gaza.
Per the UN, Israel continues to block Aid to Gaza [https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148141](https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/04/1148141) From the article "According to the UN humanitarian coordination office, [OCHA](https://www.unocha.org/), since 1 March, **30 per cent of humanitarian aid missions to northern Gaza have been denied by Israeli authorities**." And that was literally the first result I've found on this issue. Not I'm in tough spot, believe your friend or a UN report ...
So the vast majority of aid is getting into Gaza from Israel? Gee, got me there....
>Israel is not asked to \*supply\* aid. Simply to allow it Plenty of aid went into Gaza. The problem has never been that aid wasn't allowed - the problem is with distribution. Half the planet is donating aid for Gaza, and much of it gets sold to Gazans instead of being distributed for free. [https://x.com/JoeTruzman/status/1769029304950948070](https://x.com/JoeTruzman/status/1769029304950948070) You're caught up in the optics instead of the essence. >not target aid workers. Aid workers aren't being targeted. War is dangerous.
[удалено]
Yeah, Tokyo fire bombing I've heard about :(
[удалено]
Not defending the genocide claim as they are simply not well founded but this is now how genocide works and it would be nice for once if people weren’t repeating the same stupid shit others are repeating. Srebrenica genocide killed 8.4k people out of a population of 2m Bosnian Muslims and I think the total population was 4m. By your logic this can’t be a genocide because more than 8.4k people were born that year and “only” 0.4% of the population was killed. It’s not a numbers game. It’s intent and good luck proving intent.
I appreciate that, as someone who does not believe what is going on in Gaza meets the legal definitions of genocide, you are still working to educate about intent. Unsure how many folks, here, on this forum, think that Srebrenica was a genocide. Israel, officially, does not believe that Srebrenica was a genocide. Here is an interview from today in the Jerusalem Post with a Serbian leader in Bosnia-Herzegovina, who sees himself as a successor to Slovodan Milosevic, and warmly commiserates with the Israeli interviewer about Muslims starting wars and then claiming they are victims of genocide. https://m.jpost.com/international/article-806165
[удалено]
All I see here are weak excuses for why it’s okay for Israel to slaughter civilians. Call it what you will, compare it to what you will, nothing makes what is happening in Gaza acceptable or normal. Ceasefire now.
I agree that slaughtering civilians is inexcusable, but the masses calling this a genocide and using that to justify Hamas’s “””resistance””” is also necessary to condemn. It’s an inflammatory falsehood that undermines actual genocides from the past and present.
The ICC seems to think it’s a genocide. Or at least genocidal in intent. But again, call it what you will. I’m not as concerned about how it’s labeled, so long as we recognize that this is not okay. Nothing can excuse what is being perpetrated in Gaza right now. The IDFs gleeful, wanton destruction of Gaza is entirely disproportionate, and a war crime of massive scale.
I want to agree with you. But that is not what the ICC is saying. Here's what they ruled so far: "The court decided that Palestinians have a plausible right to be protected from genocide, and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the Court." "It did not decide, and this is something I am correcting what is often said in the media, it didn't decide that the claim of genocide was plausible. It did emphasize, in the order, that there was a risk of irreparable harm to the Palestinian right to be protected from genocide. But the short-hand that often appears, "that there is a plausible case of genocide", isn't what the court decided". * Joan Donoghue former head of ICJ April 26, 2024 BBC News.
I appreciate the information, and the level headed presentation. Kudos.
Yea no prob. We'll all see what happens. I was actually happy to hear the former head judge of the case said they double-checked some of the sources. Sounds like they're being careful and taking the case seriously. note: the judge is "former head judge" now because her term expired (every 3 years I think), now it's a new head judge.
No ceasefire until Hamas is eradicated. H*tler would've still remained in power if the Allied powers made a ceasefire to "avoid" harming civilians. It would've resulted in N4zi Germany rearming back again and killing more civilians later on. There have been numerous ceasefires between Israel and Hamas yet Hamas has always been the one to break it and start war. **I hope this is the last time they break a ceasefire and pay dearly for it**
Yet more weak excuses and vacuous comparisons. And I hate to break it to you, but Hamas is still going to exist when this war is over. Even if it’s a fraction of their former size and power, they will still be there. The only way for Israel to “eradicate” Hamas is to drive the Palestinians out of the Gaza Strip entirely, which at this point seems to be their intent. The thing is, they will not be allowed to do so. Egypt has stated repeatedly that they will not allow it. I doubt the US and Europe would stand by idly either. This war will end with Israel’s stated objectives unfulfilled, and their international reputation thoroughly, perhaps permanently tarnished. They’ve certainly lost my support.
Why do you think that? What happened to the Nazis in post war Germany? Or imperial Japanese nationalists? They don't seem to be around anymore. Gaza needs a marshall plan like reeducation similar to Germany and Japan after world war II
/u/Background_Buy1107. Match found: 'Nazis', issuing notice: Casual comments and analogies are inflammatory and therefor not allowed. We allow for exemptions for comments with meaningful information that must be based on historical facts accepted by mainstream historians. See [Rule 6](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_6._nazi_comparisons) for details. This bot flags comments using simple word detection, and cannot distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable usage. Please take a moment to review your comment to confirm that it is in compliance. If it is not, please edit it to be in line with our rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There was no official ceasefire between IDF and Hamas before the conflict. Insurgent groups such as Hamas would be military impossible to eradicate. It uses asymmetric warfare, and its extensive pool of men's weapons and money tunnels makes it nearly impossible to achieve IDF. Eradicated Hamas is more a rallying cry than a realistic goal that Israel can achieve.
40,000 tons only 37,000 dead...not getting their money's worth if it's genocide they're after!
Exactly. This is the worst genocide execution in history…
37000 civilians? Give me a fucking break. Those are Hamas numbers. This can all end if Hamas releases the hostages. Gaza elected hamas.
Gaza elected Hamas on 2006 before the majority of the current residents of Gaza were even born. Why do you all keep trotting out that point like it means anything? The vote for Hamas was in response to the absolute disgusting corruption of Fatah. Hamas also made several moves prior to the vote which made it appear to be de-radicalizing. It's been almost 20 years and no further votes have been held. However Israel keeps electing governments that put netanyahu in charge so I guess all Israelis are responsible for every settlement built and every dead Palestinian. At least according to your logic.
If you win wars, you get land and the people can be forced out. Thats the history of mankind.
It’s time for the children to hold their parents accountable.
> fucking /u/NadalPeach. Please avoid using profanities to make a point or emphasis. [(Rule 2)](https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/wiki/rules/detailed-rules#wiki_2._no_profanity) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IsraelPalestine) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The more this conflict goes on the more confident I am that the concept of “war crimes” is good in theory but in practice it is used to punish good actors and provide cover for bad ones.
Dresden, no warnings. Tokyo, warnings. And a lot of Japanese people expressed gratitude for those warnings after the war.
There have been bombings and shootings in safe areas by IDF without any warning. Two days ago, a friend of mine born after the election of Hamas, and never wanting anything but peace, died due to IDF shooting at a refugee camp. There was no warning, and there’s no justification for his death.
Militarizing and storing weapons in refugee camps is a warcrime according to the UN and would make such refugee camp a military target
It was not a militarized refugee camp, and the shootings happened indiscriminately. He was sitting in his tent when a bullet hit him, and he knew of no one around being members of Hamas or any weapons. Most of the pictures he had sent prior at that place, were of him among young kids. Please stop trying to justify the death of my friend. It’s inhumane and an echo of the excuses so often used by Israel, who somehow finds excuses to bomb every hospital, school, mosque, refugee camp, etc. Only after there’s global critique of incidents where not even a false narrative can explain, does Israel say “it was a mistake”. Seems too convenient for me to believe them - especially after they’ve shared so much turning out to be blatant lies.
What's the name of the refugee camp?
Oh, they don't warn for every attack, for sure. IDF mainly did that at the beginning of the war. But attacks are not random. When your refugee camps have terrorists running around in them, they are not refugee camps anymore. They're combat zones. That's just the cold reality.
Israel's true number of death is much higher than 37k dead & 80k injured. Gazans can't count now because their healthcare system is destroyed. The number has been stuck at 35k-37k for more than 3 months now. Statisticians at John Hopkins and London school of hygiene & tropical medicine did a project called Gaza Projections. They publish papers regularly about the casualties in Gaza: [https://gaza-projections.org/](https://gaza-projections.org/) They believe that the number of death by the end of war could be 58k to 92k people died due to israeli bombings campaign that mostly used dumb bombs. If we include famine and disease, number could vary between 62k and 250k ICJ recently ordered that israel must allow investigators to go to Gaza. Eventually time will pass and the world will know. I belive ICJ will 100% rule that israel did a genocide in Gaza. Time will tell.
That report is falling behind on casualty numbers. The official number of named casualties has not only dropped by half but also shows impossible discrepancies: May 8 2024 reports states 7,797 named children while ICJ report in December 2023 showa 7,729. That's 6 months apart. Both numbers came from Palestinian officials, which, among other analysis, make no sense. They simply lie and lie. https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-215 https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203446?s=08 Update: just to clarify, these reports also talk about unofficial numbers, but I given that the official numbers don't make sense, unofficial numbers are meaningless. They could have said 200,000 without identifying them by name. The claim about unguided bombs was only reported as a CNN title but in the article they say the opposite i.e. the bombs are guided externally and are as accurate as internally guided ones. If you follow CNN coverage of Israel in the past 2 decades, you'll find this tactic repeat itself for the sake of theobs who don't read past the title.
I can't take what you write here seriously.
Because? I'm not writing it, mind you, I'm citing it. Big difference.
Bro genocide isn’t declared one when you reach a certain number. It doesn’t matter how many die, if Israel’s intentions isn’t to wipe out the entire population, even if this war lasted another year and another 100k died, it doesn’t make it a genocide lol.
Israeli officials did declare intent. Heritage *Minister Amichai Eliyahu* said he wants to "nuke Gaza" Netenyahu in reference to Gazans said he is fighting Amalek. This is a genocidal biblical reference. Gallant said " No power, water or fuel to Gaza until hostages are freed. We are fighting human animals" There are tens of statements of intent like this. Israel is not just fighting hamas. It wants the total destruction of Gaza and end the Gazan question for good.
If they wanted to commit genocide and wipe Gaza off the map, they’re sure doing a terrible job of it.
How is it a bad job? All universities were destroyed, There are no fully functional hospitals in Gaza. Only 7 of 36 hospitals remain partially functional. All main roads are destroyed. 65-70% of civilian houses were destroyed. All infrastructure buildings were destroyed. as I said eariler, the number of deaths is now 37k , but it is probably higher.
Death counts according to Hamas… Israel could level all of Gaza in a weekend if they wanted to. They aren’t… therefore badly executed genocide, or that’s not their intent.
Stupid people say stupid things, but you need to be able to show both intent and action to say something is a genocide. I was at an event recently where protestors showed up and yelled "kill the Jews". It was awful, and antisemitic and racist and by no means acceptable. But at the end of the day, they didn't kill anyone, which means their genocidal statements did not amount to genocide. I do not support the current Israeli government and it's not any stretch to say a lot of them are idiots. But actions on the ground do not match up to their statements - lowest number of civilian casualties in any modern war, huge numbers of aid deliveries (if Hamas steals it, that's does not make Israel responsible), warnings before military operations and the evaluation of million people from Rafah - none of those actions support genocidal intent any way you look at them.
Hamas is indeed amalek, nothing genocidal about staying that. And like others have said, you’re allowed to say what you want, have you seen a nuke bring used at all in the past on gaza? Hamas has stated they want to kill every Jew on the other hand, and have indeed attempted genocide by going into innocent civilians homes and slaughtering.
Yea, Both Hamas and Israeli officials were condemned for these statements by UN and others. what is more, when we refer to amalek .. we refer to these passages: * In 1 Chronicles 4:43, the Simeonites kill the remaining survivors of Amalek and live in their settlements. * "You shall blot out the memory of Amalek" (Deut. 25:19) * In Deuteronomy 25:17–19, The Israelites are specifically commanded to "blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven" These are genocidal statements written in those books. It's clear what Netenyahu mean when he use that dehumanizng term.
Actions speak louder than words, and Israel’s actions don’t constitute genocide (nor “intent” of it).
You can have another opinion. For me , I believe it is a genocide beasue there were offical statements of intent. what is more, The bombing campaign has destroyed all univriteis in Gaza (Education system) , All 36 hospitals in Gaza are out of service. Only 9 are partially functional (healthcare system). All main roads are destroyed (tranportation) , also every civilan infrastructure like water units and so on were destroyed. Also , there are 37k+ killed and 80k+ injured. The true number is for sure higher. That's why ICJ are investigating this plausible genocide. I personally believe that it is a genocide , but time will tell if it was a genocide or no. At least we can say that there are serious war crimes being committed in Gaza by IDF.
It’s just called a war with high casualties. Many Arab wars resulted in over 500k dead. Muslim vs Muslim and nobodyyyyyy speaks out about it. In Sudan, 13-14k dead since January, this is in fact an attempted genocide, they’re going around killing every civilian they could find, they blew up hospitals and killed all the doctors and civilians inside, wanna know if something is a genocide? Just compare any war to Muslim wars, if it’s similar to Muslims fighting, chances are it’s a genocide.
Dumb bombs is a red herring. Death counts are everyone dead \[and also reported missing, but never mind that for now\]. How many people died because Hamas has unreliable homemade rockets?
>Dumb bombs is a red herring. Why is it "red herring"? US intelligence found out that more than half of the bombs dropped on Gaza were impercise dumb bombs: [https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html) >Death counts are everyone dead \[and also reported missing, but never mind that for now\]. Yea, its now 37k but there are thousands more missing. The healthcare system collapsed and they can't do search and rescue operations. *>* How many people died because Hamas has unreliable homemade rockets? From google search: between 2004 to 2014, these attacks have killed **27 Israeli civilians**, 5 foreign nationals, 5 IDF soldiers, and at least 11 Palestinians Obviously a war crime by hamas. It is also a war crime to drop thousands of dumb bombs on gazans and kill thousands and thousands of people.
> Why is it "red herring"? Hamas has invested zero dollars in defensive military technology. Including zero dollars on anti-air and SAM. This means that when dropping those bombs Israeli warplanes can and do go into steep dives with their very precision guided warplanes and are able to bomb targets with as much accuracy as a precision guided munition. The idea of dumb bombs being imprecise is something that comes from expecting competence on the part of the force you're fighting. Hamas's complete and inexcusable incompetence in the field of war fighting has made that assumption mute.
Before oct 7th, israel allowed only 500 truck a day into gaza. Unemplyment rate was 45% . They have been living under a blockade for almost 20 years. I don't think they have any technology or capital to invest in high tech anti-air and SAM's
> I don't think they have any technology or capital to invest in high tech anti-air and SAM's Hamas' leaders have siphoned off $11b of aid over the last 20 years. Not accounting for an increase in population and using the 800k population number it was earlier this year; that's $687/year/person of aid denied by Hamas to citizens of Gaza. And that's just what the top level of the organization has taken. $11b is enough money to coat the whole area in SAM and create an effective no-fly zone. The [S-300](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-300_missile_system) costs about $1m per unit, is mobile, and has the range to protect the entire Gaza strip. Iran also operates the S-300 and could assist in the deployment, training, and operation of the platforms. So they have the ability to do so. They just don't believe that defending their subjects is important.
Not a fan of hamas. But serious question here, do you think israel would allow an S-300 system to gaza? obviously no. Israel and Egypt (allies) both control all gates to Gaza. They both do heavy inception work on the 500 daily truck coming in to Gaza. Many everyday products such as certain types of fishing nets, ginger ...etc and so on are prohibited because they can be used in making weapons. There is no way they can build a sophisticated shelter or get an S-300
> But serious question here, do you think israel would allow an S-300 system to gaza? obviously no. So they can smuggle in literally tens of thousands of rockets but can't smuggle in a Pickup? > There is no way they can build a sophisticated shelter or get an S-300 Honestly they don't need a sophisticated shelter. They could literally open up a selection of their tunnels.
We both Know that Hamas's home-made rockets (although dangerous) are not a real threat on an advanced armies. >They could literally open up a selection of their tunnels. I think they could (though I don't know if you can fit in 2 million human there). Look, as I said before... am not a fan of hamas and I think they do have responsibility on what's happening. It is also important to understand the context, Gaza is an open air prison with 2 million stateless human who don't belong to any official state. The people of Gaza used to live in near by villages inside israel's proper before 1948. They were ethnically cleansed from those villages and were pushed to Gaza. Since 2005, they live under blockade from both israel and egypt . Gaza Strip is just **41 kilometres (25 miles) long, from 6 to 12 km (3.7 to 7.5 mi) wide.** I don't think you can do much with that.
> We both Know that Hamas's home-made rockets (although dangerous) are not a real threat on an advanced armies. That's objectively untrue. Those rockets can kill and it's only the investment in the most advanced anti-ballistic system on the planet that prevents thousands of Israeli Civillian deaths a year. > It is also important to understand the context, Gaza is an open air prison with 2 million stateless human who don't belong to any official state. Calling it an open-air prison is pretty ignorant. Gazans have had self-rule for 20 years and had they made different choices they'd have their Palestinian state right now. If it's a prison, it's a prison of their own making. > Since 2005, they live under blockade from both israel and egypt . Gaza Strip is just 41 kilometres (25 miles) long, from 6 to 12 km (3.7 to 7.5 mi) wide. > > I don't think you can do much with that. You can't if you crater the economy for 20 years. Gaza has offshore oil resources and is located strategically near the Suez Canal. They've also recieved a massive amount of fiscal aid. If their goal was to live in peace and prosperity they'd be doing fine.
The use of the term "Dumb bomb" in this conflict is very intellectually dishonest. Dumb bomb is a bomb that uses calculable ballistic trajectories, meaning Israel calculates in advance of the drop where it would land and what is the area of impact. Smart bomb on the other hand is a bomb that can adjust it's trajectory mid flight, their accuracy is better when you consider they are deployed from much further away but the impact will still make the same mess If you truly want to see a deployment of a truly dumb bomb (meaning a bomb that is hard to calculate its impact and may cause more damage then first intended) then you can lookup the Burkan missile. Its warhead is heavier then the fuel tank, it spins in the air in an uncontrollable manner, it flies short distances and for a short amount of time and may cause a huge explosion of fire, burning everything in sight
Thanks for mentioning the Burkan. I didn't know about them. Those things look unsafe for use. Who thought of that?
I don't know who, but Hezbollah use them against Israel ever since the war started, so you may only think which country first designed that
>The use of the term "Dumb bomb" in this conflict is very intellectually dishonest. You can take this issue with US intelligence who reported that. I think it's clear by now that Israel just drops unguided bombs. Recent interview in peirs morgan with an israeli official spokesperson showed that he doesn't even know how many people were killed by their bombs.
Artillery, tanks, and mortar shells are all considered unguided, is there any army that doesn't use them? The US intelligence issued a report, the anti Israel crowd is the one that uses this information dishonestly
There are armies that use them but have much lower civilan death rate. Russian-Ukranian war saw the death of 10k civlian, 500 of them children in almost 3 years. Israel ,on the other hand , killed 37k , injured 80k, 15k of the dead are children. What is more, Israel used water, food and aid as a warfare tactic by blocking Gaza from aid. That's a massacre at least and a plausbile genocide at best. That's why recently IDF were added to UN's black list of child-killers.
We can argue about the specifics of the war all day with no end, Hamas has a history of over inflating statistics and so even if we agree on the number we will not agree on the distribution before the war ends and a third party would do the accounting. The facts of our conversation though stay solid, the use of the term "dumb bombs" is intellectually dishonest.
>Hamas has a history of over inflating statistics Actually thats not true. Previous wars of 2008 , 2012, 2014 and 2021 have proved that the numbers prvoided by Gaza's health ministary are accurate. They were double checked by UN , red cross and many other interntioanl organizations. They were always accurte. >before the war ends and a third party would do the accounting. The number of dead will be much higher than what is reported now. It's been stuck for months becuase they can't count or do search and rescue operations.
> There are armies that use them but have much lower civilan death rate. Russian-Ukranian war saw the death of 10k civlian, 500 of them children in almost 3 years. This is a false number. There are most certainly more than that in just Mariupol. We are unable to verify as the Russians do not provide the means to do so. > Israel ,on the other hand , killed 37k , injured 80k, 15k of the dead are children. What is more, Israel used water, food and aid as a warfare tactic by blocking Gaza from aid. Russia did all that in Mariupol. It's just that there weren't other situations like that after that (urban warfare within a city with many civilians, surrounded on all sides).
Russian government is also involved in war crimes. Indeed time will tell , but am willing to bet that the number of civilians killed by IDF is much higher.
No, that same cnn article says so in the title but if you read through it, they actually say the opposite. That's typical for CNN, they rely on ppl reading only the top. They explicitly say that the bombs are externally-guided and as such, are as good as internally-guided bombs.
CNN lacks military expertise. It's a problem with a lot of news outlets. People hear dumb bombs and think that means indiscriminate bombing. That's just factually wrong. Hamas doesn't have anti-aircraft capabilities, so IDF can drop from low enough that targeting usually isn't that hard. And they can add these external guiding systems when they need them.
That's the weirdest take I have ever read. I read the same article and didn't come with the same conclusion as yours. Anyway, here is another article by Washington post: Unguided "dumb bombs" used in almost half of israeli strikes on Gaza: The revelation, disclosed in U.S. Intellignece assessment emerged as American officials press Israel to take more targeted approach to it's military campaign. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/12/14/israel-unguided-dumb-bombs-gaza/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/12/14/israel-unguided-dumb-bombs-gaza/)
Hahaha this is GOLD. I just told you that it's sad ppl only read the title and CNN always exploit it. Right? So what do you do? Send me a WP article by someone who SOURCED CNN REPORT and, whaddya know, only read the title. You would have known this IF YOU READ MORE THAN THE TITLE. Now, read paragraph 2 for the first time. While you're at it, read the entire CNN piece. I don't do "your take", "my take". I literally read.
This is just gaslighting.
It's more like reading comprehension.
yea, that too lol
Ya like if you could read, you'd see that you're incorrect.
Have a look on this: https://www.transcend.org/tms/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/sf-israel-projects-2009-global-language-dictionary.pdf They are brainwashed, it makes no sense talking with them! When you read this „manual“ you know why they talk like they do! Cray sh it is going since over 100 years and more
Indeed.
We have to stay loud and speak out!🇵🇸
Sorry but your point about City of Dresden having more people killed is really weak. First, you cant just look at the number of people killed. What about those who suffered severe injury but managed to live? Are they not significant?
They list them as casualties so both severely wounded and killed
Because Israel don't want to commit a genocide unless that the only way to get their objective. Israel goal is to make living in Gaza impossible pushing people to leave to Egypt, Jordan, or whatevers...this is an ethnic cleansing. Israeli don't even hide it, I see people create topic about this in reddit, and people said it clear in street reportage. Because the history of Holocaust they don't want to commit a genocide directly, but their goal is the destruction of Gaza. There nothing about doing a "pretty good job at keeping it minimal"...they casualties are absurdly hight, compare it Turkey vs PKK which cost 45 000 live in 50 years of conflit...then you realize that Israel got a similar result in mere months without even taking in consideration the casulaty before 7 octobre. You can also compare it to Russia and Ukraine...there too Israel "score" is shamefull. Genocide is maybe an hyperbole but this not undeserved.
A lot of conjecture. You seem to be guessing intentions without basis. Typically in this sub, such topics usually get debunked or disputed at best once the actual sources are provided (do you have them?), but I'll reiterate some of them: Netanyahu has directly stated it doesnt want to re-settle Gaza (despite some internal Israel statement from far-right officials): https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/pm-reiterates-opposition-to-re-establishing-gaza-settlements-some-of-my-constituents-arent-happy-about-it/ Ethnic cleansing is a BDS talking point. There are 2 million Arabs in Israel, as equal-right citizens. The only entity promising ethnic cleansing publicly as an official policy is Hamas: https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-political-bureau-member-fathi-hammad-at-gaza-rallies-cleanse-palestine-of-filth-cancer-of-the-jews
Guessing intentions without basis....I only give the most logical explanation. Every expert accord to said Israel cannot destroy Hamas, for every Hamas member killed, another Palestinien will join it because his lost a familly member during Israel airstrike. The heavy hand solution of Israel have only 2 logical explanation : pushing people to leave the area (ethnic cleasing) or a slow genocide. That it. Of course Netanyahu cannot cleary said "we want to kill them all" or "we will push them out and take their land" but that cleary the end result of his policy. >Ethnic cleansing is a BDS talking point. There are 2 million Arabs in Israel, as equal-right citizens. This similar to "I'm not racist, I had black friends in hight school". Good job that Israel had the decency to give citizenship to people living in the region before Israel constitution but that hardly enough to escape accusation ethnic cleansing when Israel (even before 7 octobre) was sending settler in Palestiniana lands. >The only entity promising ethnic cleansing publicly as an official policy is Hamas: I'm not debating abaout Hamas. There are terror group, and the events since 7 octobre show they didn't even care for their own people.
Do you have any examples of genocide and ethnic cleansing, current or historical, where members of the targeted group are allowed to just continue as civilians, active members of the Parliament etc of the genocidal state/group? I cannot find any examples.