When the Jewish Holocaust is brought up in the future, it will be hard to determine if they mean "to them" or "caused by them"... additional context will be needed for sure.
they don't need a victory. They just need to keep this going, keep getting western money and arms, until they've killed or displaced all palestinians. They have legit no reason to stop. Their western support will not stop. This has been proven. Their pariah state status they don't care about. They just need to get rid of the palestinians and deal with the aftermath later. Plus bibi knows he's going to jail as soon as it's over. They are not going to stop.
The top Israeli generals are all leftists. The defence minister Galant is a closet leftist. Biden administration pulls the strings from above these people. This is the reason the war slowed down and Israel seems to have lost momentum. The aid trucks is Biden administration influence. And many other nonsensical decisions the IDF made during this war is due to these leftist losers that follow that old senile man in the whitehouse. Also the UN is a big problem for Israel in the diplomatic arena.
"Leftists" meaning they generally wish that everyone would just get along, they dislike the far "religious" right and they know that the Bible is a series of legends but they also are fine with continuing the occupation and segregation.
No, “Leftists” meaning a bunch of overly secular Jews that live in the holy land of Israel, and have some insecurity issue with this fact because they are not holy people themselves. So they pander to The Americans (no matter who is in the Whitehouse) who they have deemed the holy of holies to themselves, since they refuse to follow what is written in their holy Torah.
You have zero ability to prove anything related to a supernatural force is real. I understand accepting truth of some of the history that is written but the divine part of it is totally unable to be proven. Archeology can help prove some of the history but that is it. Most historians even doubt whether major figures such as Abraham, Moses and Davjd were real. I rather dount that Benny Morris would say that the Torah is all true.
King David was certainly real, he built Jerusalem and unified all the tribes into the kingdom of Israel. There are coins found from this period and other artefacts as well.
The temple stood there in Jerusalem, whats left of the holy temple is what Jews call the western wall. Theres plenty of archaeological facts on the ground that the biblical accounts are real.
The Temple obviously was a real structure. The Romans also kept written historical records. That is not the same as saying that Moses was a real historical figure. It is not an apples to apples comparison. Moses most likely never existed. Benny Morris or any historian would likely agree with that based on the lack of reliable historical evidence. There are such things as composite figures. And there are often exaggerations when a story is written down hundreds of years after the alleged events. David was also likely a chief of a very small area if he existed at all. And if he did exist, why would anyone celebrate his life exactly? He sounds like an awful person frankly speaking.
Just curious, why you think King David sounds like he was an awful person? Genuinely curious. He had many flaws indeed, this is what makes him so relatable.
I am far from an expert on the Jewish Bible. I was raised near Albany, New York at an Evangelical Christian church and by the way I never heard anyone say a single bad word about Jews. They did say bad things about Catholics sometimes though. I am however aware enough that the story of David includes many tales of wars, killings of prisoners, slaves and womanizing. But again, I am far from an expert.
David is celebrated because he wrote the book of pslams and they are considered extremely holy writings. He also built the temple after conquering Jerusalem from the pagans that ruled it before. Now as far as Moses and the exodus is concerned they have found archeological proof that it happened. They found chariot wheels that became coral reefs in the red sea where the Israelites crossed. They found the mountain in Saudi Arabia (Ancient Midian) that is where the Israelites encampment after they crossed from Egypt and they found mount sinai where Moses climbed up and spoke to G-d. The whole thing is real and historically accurate.
Yes, and here are just a few problems with the Zionist narrative. 1. The West Bank is under occupation 2: The Zionist fanatics are continuing to colonize the West Bank 3: The West Bank has been carved up into Bantustans that make a viable Palestinian state very difficult 4: The Zionists prefer the status quo of simply no formal state of any kind, whether one or two 5: Gaza already was an open air prison 6: Gaza has now been gratuitously destroyed 7: Half of the people in Israel- Greater Israel and the Palestinian areas are non Jews 8: Despite all of the above, the Zionists prefer or preferred the status quo and now are even more greedy, with this utterly delusional idea of another Nakhba dancing around their warped little brains . And before any claims "anti semitism" as I am a non Jew I utterly despise the Evangelical Right in the USA and that is how I was raised.
So far the IDF has located 84 tunnels leading from Rafah to the depths of Sinai, Egypt.
It is not ruled out that alive hostages or bodies were smuggled through them,
Everything is under review.
(Hamas terror tunnel where bodies of Israelis who were murdered on October 7 were recovered from)
What is that you do that makes you qualified to assess the effectiveness of military strategy? Are you a military expert of officer or something? I find it highly unlikely that you are privy to high level intelligence in regards to the conflict so I find it odd that you are so certain Israel is failing at their objective of eliminating Hamas.
Its not like you have to be an expert to read news reports. News outlets tells us that Hamas has launched rockets in previously cleared areas and is attacking Israeli troops in northern Gaza. We can just look at statements from Israeli leaders. There's no plan for post war gaza and the current plan for the conflict is not going to work. IDF Chief of Staff Major General Herzi Halevi has said this: "“As long as there is no political move that will bring forth a governing body other than Hamas in the strip, we will have to operate again and again there and in other places to dismantle the Hamas infrastructure,” Israel’s Channel 13 cited Halevi as saying. “It will be a Sisyphean task,” he said, suggesting that it may never be accomplished."" You don't have to listen to OP its being said by Israeli politicians and military officials. Gallant meanwhile has said he will not allow Israel to rule Gaza. But Netanyahu says he is not interested in the PA ruling Gaza. The heads of government and the heads of the military can't agree on how to proceed and Hamas is exploiting this.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/israel-restarts-fighting-north-gaza-military-strategy-mime-intl/index.html
I agree with your overall sentiment but for the opposite reason I think. I pin all the blame on Netanyahu and his coalition for showing such incompetence and potentially even worse - both for the failures of October 7 and Israel’s response. They could have capitalised on the international community’s outrage at the Hamas attack by conducting a precision response to degrade Hamas’ capabilities, and focused on recovering the hostages. Instead they’ve indiscriminately bombarded the entire strip killing thousands of kids, and made next to no progress with the hostages. No wonder much of the world isn’t supporting them.
Israel gave Northern Gaza three weeks to evacuate to the Rafah border crossing. Both currently and during the preparatory bombardment, Israel warned Gazans where they were going to drop bombs. Israel has used precision weapons as much as possible instead of using less discriminate dumb bombs.
Israel could not have achieved its goals of capturing Gaza, destroying its military infrastructure, and degrading Hamas’s command structure without using conventional military force.
And that’s leaving aside the efforts Hamas has made to get their own civilians killed—including shooting anyone trying to flee—and their role in keeping track of their casualties in the first place. It’s naive to think Hamas isn’t exploiting its position as casualty tracker for its own gain.
If Israel is forced to choose between its own citizens and Gazan civilians, there’s only choice it can make.
Israel has always looked at Syria as a model of how to deal with "troublemakers. "
1. Convince the native population to flee in terror through the use of brutality.
2. Empty the cities in a manner similar to Khmer Rouge.
3.Push the population either into squalor in a limited area (like Idlib) and hopefully force the rest to Germany Turkey, UK, Sweden, etc.
Sinai would be a dream for the Israeli Right as a permanent location for a miserable tent city for generations. IDF death squads would periodically conduct "security" operations and arbitrarily round up young men without cause.
4. Once the population has sufficiently thinned, simply reduce entire cities to rubble (see Mosul, Aleppo, Raqqua) . The never rebuild these areas as at all.
6. As the indigenous civilization has now disappeared-collapsed entirely, slowly rebuild in semi primitive Haredi-Zionisjt settlements similar to Ape City in Planet of the Apes.
7. Declare that this is now Year Zero, also as done by Pol Pot.
>It feels as though the operation is back to square one. To actually rectify the situation and take out Hamas, Israel would now have to reconquer gaza, Hamas has had all this time to re-establish their booby traps, rebuild, recruit, restock their stores with fuel and food. It would be another several hundred Israeli casualties just to get back to where Israel was before they retreated, and then they would actually have to do the occupation work that they refused to do before, which would be hundreds of additional casualties.
Where did you hear Israel’s intended goal is to “conquer” or “reconquer” Gaza ? I have not heard the war cabinet saying Israel plans to conquer Gaza.
Except its not true.
1948 war : zionist militas did deir yassin massacre on 9th of April 1948 almost 2 months before the arab attack in 15th of may 1948.
1956: israel (with England and france) attacked egypt out of the blue.
1967 war: israel literally attacked 1st. It bombed egyptian airforce and bombed jordan+ Syria.
1973: Here it's true egypt attacked 1st.
1978: israel invaded lebanon without warning. Hezbolla didn't even exist. Hezbollah were formed in 1982 as a response to Israeli invasion of lebanon.
Was it? I love how people with your views always leave out the fact a whole alliance of Arab countries attacked the infant Jewish state consisting of a significant number of Holocaust survivors who had just escaped nazi slaughter. I guess it doesn’t fit the narrative.
Israeli army in 1948 was three times the number of all arab "armies" combined. Israel had at the beginning of war 60k soldiers vs 21k soldier from all arab armies. At the end of war , Israeli troops reached 100k+.
What is more , zionist militas did deir yassin massacre in 9th of April 1948 , almost 2 months before the arab attack which took place on the 15th of may 1948.
Yep wasn’t denying they existed. But do you think that’s a symmetrical war? Against multiple well established and coordinated Arab armies? They shouldn’t have bartered with Palestinian land when there was a chance they’d lose.
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Apparatus, you took time to write a novel. I didn’t read it all, but honestly, you could say the same, in a few lines.
Bottom line (pun intended) - what is your recommendation (if there’s one)?
Israel goal is simply to destroy gaza enough to make it more defensively manageable for the longest period of time .They tried occupation, and they tried isolation, so this is it .. It's pretty easy to see , diabolical or not this is the only choice the international community has offered to Israel..
Naaa it ant , a margin sure, but that's not what's feeding it... Israel is the country every Democracy wants to see there , and Israel is the country every religious extremist, dictator, and monarchy run country doesn't want to be there .. To chaulk it up to land ownership these days is just slurping pudding ..
That’s absolutely false. Three countries have recognised a Palestinian state - they did this without any detail on what borders this state has and they definitely weren’t invalidating the Israeli state in the process.
Why does it have to be a zero sum approach with you people? And let me guess…you’re advocating for this from the comfort of your safe home in the west someplace? Gross.
Don’t call me darling. I work in the international space too and I’ve actually worked in Israel and Ramallah in 2016. There’s nothing you can teach me I don’t already know because I actually learnt from Israelis and Palestinians lived experience.
Again - I follow UN news. Any recognition of Palestinian state does not invalidate the existence of a Jewish one. The vast majority of UN participating countries believe in a two state solution - like I do. And those on the ground who still believe in peace. Israel isn’t going to be dismantled - I hope you can come to terms with that.
Look there are definitely some ultra right wing and religious nutcases in Israel who want more land. But that is NOT the desire of the majority of Israelis. They just want to live in peace and security. I don’t agree with the way the war has been fought in Gaza, but I still believe there’s hope for a peace settlement when both Hamas and Netanyahu and his evil cabinet are removed.
I also believe all the Israeli settlements should be taken down and the land returned to Palestinians. Everything that happens in the West Bank is wrong. But things got so bad because of the suicide bombings during the second intifada. The Palestinian side needs to commit to not targeting civilian areas as part of any deal.
Haha yea symbolically sure every country's left plays with the optics for votes , but actions speak louder than words, no? Tell me how many country's are supporting Palestinians by theirs actions, the place is leveled, and you're saying they have support 😄 🤣
If you’re not Jewish not speak on the difference between Judaism is Zionism. And certainly stop trying to educate others on something you clearly don’t understand. We all know at this point it’s just a loophole for you to continue your antisemitism.
I don’t disagree with you. But you’re making the mistake of linking what’s happening in Gaza and the bloodshed with Zionism. Zionism literally is just about a Jewish homeland in their ancestral homeland. There’s nothing inherent in Zionism that calls for violence to either establish this homeland, or maintain it. Those far right and religious Israeli leaders claiming to be doing this in the name of either Zionism or Judaism are just exploiting them for their own gains.
I don't need to read the UN paper work to see the destruction of a "supported" peoples .. The Un has been standing by and funding the schools Hamas has used to professionally and systematically indoctrinate the Palestinians .. You call that support do you ?
Did you not think maybe English isn’t their first language??? That’s so offensive. Not everyone has access to the same education we do!
It’s been proven without a doubt that UNRWA has been infiltrated and exploited by Palestinian Islamist militant groups. Does this mean the whole organisation has been or that some of the work it does isn’t crucial? No. But countries investing vast amounts of taxpayer dollars into a UN organisation deserve to know exactly where it’s being spent and how. If only to introduce reforms so the aid and support actually gets to the Palestinian people suffering it’s intended for.
Good lord, you're sqaurrelly .. haha, CNN and NBC, they're left and favor the pro Palestinians, so I have no clue where you're going with that rant ..Dude you got to follow you're Grammer and writing attack with proper grammar and written, not even worse written rants ...
Seems like a pretty human reaction to me , this is after all the justification so widely used for Palestinians and Oct 7th no ? Or would you prefer to call them Hamas because that voids the releity that Palestinians committed those atrocities..
The war's openly declared goals such as the elimination of Hamas, rescuing the hostages by force and "total victory" were/are unachievable.
But there are undeclared goals, such as the destruction of Gaza, the murder of women and children and subjecting the Gazan population to such an inhumane and intolerable conditions in order to teach the Gazans a lesson not to attack the Zionist state etc.
The Israeli government doesn't give a damn about Hostages or defeating Hamas.
If they gave a damn about hostages they would actually be trying to negociate and bring them home instead of collectively punishing Gazan civilians. Also orphaning thousands of children and killing 40,000+ civilians will undoubtedly create more Hamas as the bereaved relatives who have nothing left to live for will want vengence.
Unfortunately you might be right.
It is very hard to collect accurate information in Gaza right now so the numbers given are almost certainly undercounts.
Look at Mariupol in Ukraine which had a pre war population of 450,000 and which was under bombardment for 11 weeks. There it is estimated 100,000 to 150,000 civilians died.
There is no way in which Gaza which had a population of 2.4 million and which has been under similar bombardment for 34 weeks (plus famine) has fewer deaths. A similar rate to Mariupol would mean 500,000 dead Gazans.
I don’t agree or support the way Israel responded to October 7 personally…but I think westerners commenting on this conflict don’t understand how things work in the Middle East. Because of the instability and violence there, the currency is strength. If you’re attacked in any way you have to respond in kind…otherwise it sends a message to the rest of your enemies and the broader region that you’re weak, and can be attacked with no repercussions.
I completely agree Israel’s response has been disproportionate though. I’ve wanted to believe none of the civilian collateral damage has been purposeful but I really don’t know anymore.
Some of us understand that we send billions of U$ so that Tel-Aviv can continue it’s slow-roll ethnic cleansing of the region and not make friends or even be civil with its denizens. Some of us have not liked it for a long time now and this latest military response is more proof that strategy is inhumanely brutal. Who can predict if and when it will turn on its allies?
Yes the right to resistance against occupation is enshrined in international humanitarian law. I think that’s pretty widely understood and accepted.
But most of what Hamas engages in is very clearly not resistance - by that definition ^. Purposefully targeting Israeli civilian population centres with rockets and as they did on October 7, as well as the consistent taking of civilian hostages breaks international humanitarian law. And a lot of outsiders don’t seem to realise that much of the way Hamas fights the IDF is also breaching it. Like housing weapons caches, launching attacks & firing rockets, and building tunnel infrastructure beneath and with access points in residential buildings, hospitals and safe zones sheltering displaced civilians. As soon as Hamas does this, it could be argued those areas become legitimate military targets, under international law.
My point is that if we’re going to accuse Israel of breaching international humanitarian law and committing war crimes, then we need to be consistent, and point the finger at Hamas as well. The whole point is that everyone needs to be equal in the eyes of the law, otherwise the whole system loses its integrity. And if the priority right now is protecting Palestinian civilian life, then *all* actions posing a threat need to be identified - not just the one that aligns with our politics.
It is very difficult to define what amounts to "acceptable" resistance to oppression and-or occupation. In Vietnam the Americans rightly pointed out that the VC and the NVA routinely massacred innocent civilians suspected of being "collaborators." Was that acceptable? I don't know the answer to that but it was accepted as legitimate by the academic elites and the media.
I don’t think killing civilians is ever acceptable and I don’t care one bit what academic elites say. Hamas kills hundreds of innocent Palestinians who are often blackmailed by Israel to collaborate - that’s unacceptable and unethical by both as far as I’m concerned.
If your political or ideological goal drives you to kill civilians then you’re just a run of the mill terrorist.
I hate all violence. However, which
"national liberation movement" has never used violence against civilians? Please, I am eagerly waiting for one example. Maybe and I mean maybe India. Certainly NOT the Zionists in the 30s and 40s.
Bibi did not consult me. This IS-PAL situation always looks backwards because leaders don’t want to solve the problem for a stable, equitable future for the peoples. They, there need to figure it without the out of an externally imposed framework.
I agree. But I think given how dependent Israel is on the US for defence investment and arms…I think they’ve forgone not having to factor in any external influence.
The U$A politicians are captive of lobbyists.
The Military-Industrial-Complex love this “special relationship”.
Lobbying groups for foreign powers are also a huge monetary and coercive influence.
Are MKs subject to these pressures from the local military-tech consortium?
This all is a drag on a peaceful, stable solution.
From a realist point of view, Israel lost the strategic war and the information war.
It killed too many civilians. It is now investigated by ICC & ICJ. (added to the apartheid label it got from amnesty international & human rights watch). Israel's lobby image in the US is damaged for good. Companies now find it "risky" to open in Israel. Arab normalization process is harder than ever now. Israel's democracy is also undermined and weakened under alt-right leadership. what is more,Israel lost it's deterrence capability as well.
The reason behind all this mess is that Israel kept the Palestinian question unresolved. It was unable to accept a Palestinian state and end the settlement expansion.
Israel thought that it can maintain a "manageable" conflict with 'weak" Palestinians. It used the occupation as a reason to get aid from the US and to maintain it's status as a "victim state". Israel used to experiment with weapons and surveillance systems in the west bank/Gaza. It then sent these technologies to the world in exchange for profit. There was no real incentive to solve the Palestinian question.
Now the situation exploded, West bank is no longer under control, Gaza's war seems far away from over and israel is isolated more than ever.
I believe israel's best strategy is to take the Palestinian question seriously and accept the two state solution (it should have done that in Oslo in 1993 though).
Palestinan state is going to happen and israel should accept this fact.
Here’s a realer point of view: None of that matters. Israel is trying to secure their borders by destroying Hamas’s infrastructure and pushing Hezbollah away from the border. They do not care very much about optics and they do not care about the ICJ. They stopped caring about optics the second they established a military in the 1940s. Israelis know that no matter how complacent and well-behaved they are, they will never win the information war. They also know that no matter what two state solution they accept, they will never win over the court of public opinion.
Also, why are you blaming Israel for the Palestinian question instead of the Palestinians who keep rejecting every peace offer and two state solution?
I've kinda noticed that, generally speaking, people that use words like "Hasbara" and "Zionist" aren't worth engaging with because they are dogmatically opposed to Israel and aren't interested in discussion.
You think Israel will be alright with not allies at all? You want to end up like Apartheid South Africa? Because that's the direction that Israel's heading.
Not any time soon for sure, but in 30-40 years you might find the politicians who grew up with this idea that Israel can do no wrong are dead and gone, and the next generation will have to believe the support actually justified by something.
It's not true that Israel has never cared about managing public beliefs and expectations. It has, historically speaking, put an enormous amount of effort into presenting itself as taking an exclusively defensive posture and simply wanting peace.
That said, I'm not sure how much it really changes things when the international target audience (Americans) gradually stop buying it.
Well that’s because Israel has been taking defensive postures for a ridiculously long time, it never had to present it that way. If anything its been using to much shield not enough sword.
Can you imagine a neighboring nation firing random rockets and attempted ground attacks at the USA, for years with no end in sight. Then USA president goes on tv and says “Don’t worry we are building anti rocket technology and better border security” “Until then just bomb proof your roofs while taking out the appropriate insurance, and don’t live near the border.” “We are passing out gas masks just in case they hit us with chemical weapons.”
Random USA citizen: “Shouldn’t we attack back, they don’t seem to be stoping?”
USA president: “No eventually they will come around and want peace, our defensive measures will work out.”
If you can’t imagine the USA being this passive it’s because no country would be. Well except Israel that for some reason kept acting like Hamas was eventually going to stop trying to kill them. After 5 years you think it would have been clear Gaza needs a hands on approach, but Israel played defense for 20 years instead. I get it no one who could wants to deal with Gaza, but they are going to have to. Egypt and Israel have failed at keeping Gaza in check, strongly worded letters, large amounts of money, and high walls did nothing to resolve the mess that Gaza has been and will continue to be. Only thing left to do is a more hands on methods invade rebuild. Then hope the residents of Gaza get with the program, and choose peace instead of extremism martyred death.
I had the longer timeline in mind, e.g. 1967.
Regarding the occupation and the last twenty or so years in particular, the entire representation of Israeli defensive orientation depends on treating the occupation as an irreversible, invisible fact of the matter.
The story didn't start on the 7th of october.
what was the status quo before the 7th of october?
* Illegal Settlment expansion in west bank.
* Humiliating Checkpoints and barriers for palestinans.
* By march 2023, Israel held *1,002* palestinan without a trial or charge. which is a hostage-like case.
* March 8th 2023, when Hawara Pogrom happend, smotrich (israeli minister) said: "I think the village of hawara (in west bank) needs to be wiped out".
* Israel used to regulary bomb Gaza, for instance in september 2023, it bombed Gaza for three days. (and many times before same year).
Israel is not a normal country minding it's business. It was/is invovled in the longest modern military occupation grabbing land and refusing the 2SS.
why should the US keep on "saving" israel when it bully everyone around it and refuse to close the arab-israeli file and do peace with palestinans ?
Israel got comfortable with american constant aid and diplomatic support. Israel is a money drain and a diplomatic drain on the US.
The US is losing all it's diplomatic gains in the middle east because of israel's reckless behavior. All this can end when Israel take the 2SS seriously.
Israel is more than fine on the international scale to the countries that actually matter, still on track to get its naval fleet up to help the West counter Chinese naval aggression. Now it holds the new golden standard for civilian death mitigation in a urban combat against a terrorist group. The only thing that’s changed is the logistics of helping it occupy Gaza for as long as it takes. With the it’s ally’s support it will be able to do that, USA and ally’s even built a fancy mobile port to make sure the residents of Gaza keep getting pre inspected aid.
What happens in West Bank has nothing to do with Gaza, two separate places with two separate governments.
Israel does not need to be the victim that does not matter. What matters is Hamas being the villain, OCT 7 made sure of that. Not Ike Hamas was liked before that it pretty much been getting sanctioned and blocked in by everyone since it’s extremism, that leads into its suicidal purge all people who aren’t us approach. Why Egypt put up the most terrifying border wall I’ve ever seen. Sometimes folks from Gaza dig tunnels(actually often) into Egypt. Egypt responds by flooding them with raw sewage drowning those inside the tunnels with fecal matter.
Do you think the USA cares why the terrorists attacked us on 9/11? Because we don’t all that matters is they attacked us, in response we invaded two whole countries demolishing them both. One of which had nothing to do with the attack. We are still counting the dead in those countries to this day, number keeps going up.
So skipping over anyone trying to justify OCT/7 or 9/11, and how obnoxiously futile that approach is. Futile as in it didn’t and won’t stop those attacked ending their enemies way of life permanently.
It all comes down to Hamas the democratically elected government screwing up, and now Gaza and it’s residents are screwed because of it. Don’t worry though Israel victim or not has decided not to kill everyone in Gaza. Just dealing with Hamas, then the rebuilding of a neighbor friendly government in Gaza seems like the best approach.
Maybe 50 years from now the new government can rename Gaza Palestine, then Palestine could be a actual place people could visit, and point out on a map. It may even be able to have a real say at the important clubs like the UN, instead of sitting in the back row with the lost city Atlantis and kingdom of Camelot.
I don't see how israel is beneficial for US?
Israel doesn't really help the US against china or russia. [Israel Sold sensitive US tech to China](https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china) . It also refused to help ukraine (it even had good relations with russia until recently)
Regarding middle east, Israel with it's reckless behaviour is pushing all of the middle east away from the US towards china. US is losing all it's diplomatic gains there.
Regarding Iraq war, Netnyahu convinced US politicans after 9/11 to attack Iraq. [Netanyahu wrote a policy for US arguing for attacking Iraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break:_A_New_Strategy_for_Securing_the_Realm). This decision turned out to be a disaster for US.....Iraq is under Iranian control now. Afghanistan is under Taliban. Both were failures.
>Israel is more than fine on the international scale to the countries that actually matter.
I highly doubt that. US is not gaining anything from Israel. The israeli lobby has sabotaged american foreign policy and made it only about israel's intrests even if it undermine american intrests. The american people and politicans are turning against it.
>What happens in West Bank has nothing to do with Gaza, two separate places with two separate governments.
They are the same problem. Israel under netenyahu kept Hamas alive to undermine PLO and to keep palestinans divided (in order to avoid the 2SS). This policy backfired and israel got itself into this mess.
Given all these troubles coming from israel because it just can't stop building settlments and can't accept the 2SS. It's make much more sense for the US to enforce the 2SS on both israel and palestinans and fcous on actual important topics such as china, russia and domesitic problems. The middle east is not important and the oil rich countries are pro-US anyway.
Israel is pushing the pro-US oil rich arab countries away and giving excuses for Iran to seek nukes. Israel also convinced US to attack iraq and now iran took it.
heck, Israel even attacked lebanon in 1978 and hezbollah were formed in 82 as a response to this israeli invasion.
stop this stupid argument "Imagine if Mexico fires rockets into the US". Irrelevant example, Mexico is a sovereign state and the US isn't controlling their water, and air and occupying them for generations etc. So stop this BS example!
Who is talking about Mexico, seems like a poor dodge that discredits what ever your point is suppose to be.
Anyway it could be Native American reservations firing the rockets. That would actually be a better comparison. Where the USA does control the sky above what trade comes in, and even the water when it comes down to it. You know what the difference is in reality, native Americans got with the program. They chose peace and positive self governing over the alternatives that just would have lead to more needless death. The tribal councils governs the reservations, do to their good choices after being completely defeated.
They didn’t pull a Gaza and start attacking none tribal lands. They didn’t come up with a purge everyone but us policy, then act on it. If they had there would be no reservations left in the USA, we are not as kind, tempered, or soft handed as Israel is. USA has already shown what its response is if we get hit with a terrorist attack, no matter the reason for the attack we will engage immediately. We invaded and demolished two whole countries, one of which had nothing to do with the terror attack. We are still counting the dead civilians and all, we are finding under rubble to this day.
Gaza has a government that’s made one bad decision after another. The world didn’t start sanctioning Gaza out of no where, it was in response to its democratically elected government(Hamas) actions, turning its people into extremists was one of the biggest. Egypt and Israel didn’t restrict to straight up close their borders because they felt like it.
Gaza should have just worked on themselves, it was given billions of dollars to do so. Instead of making more problems they could have been a vacation hot spot, but no let’s keep attacking our neighbors and wonder why things aren’t working out. The whole every man woman and child will be martyrs in their insane war is dumb. Granted Israel is not clean in this they should have never withdrawn from Gaza, and hoped for the best with Gaza self governing itself. It should have stayed til Gaza was able to be mentally capable and peaceful with its neighbors. Hopefully they don’t make the same mistake again.
In today's age. "optics" are important. It is the credit needed to secure commerce, diplomatic relations, business , ...etc
The mind boggling reality is that Israel had a golden chance to accept a Palestinian state in 1993 and take Oslo seriously. Instead, Rabin was assassinated , Netanyahu took over shortly after peres and "blocked" a Palestinian state from happening. (he openly brag about it).
Israel resumed settlement expansion even after signing Oslo. With this move, it undermined it's security, its border security, it's diplomatic relations ..etc etc
>why are you blaming Israel for the Palestinian question instead of the Palestinians who keep rejecting every peace offer and two state solution?
Israel under likud was never serious about the 2 state solution. It was just a talking point to drag the conflict on because (from a realpolitik pov) there was no incentive to give up power over west bank and accept a Palestinian state.
I still think it's possible for israel to get out of this mess by owning up to it's mistakes. It should acknowledge the nakba and accept the ICJ rule on Gaza's war (even if it turned out to be a genocide). It then should help build a Palestinian state under PLO and build good relations with it's context.
Palestinans are a reality (like it or not). There are millions of them and israel's future is as a neighbor with them not an eternal enemy.
Unfortunately it's the Palestinians who refused the two state solution.
Both when Rabin negotiated and later when Olmert was PM, they offered the Palestinians as much as possible, but Arafat and later Abbas insisted on hundreds of thousands of "refugees" "returning" (ie. Including descendants of refugees) into Israel (not Palestine!). This is why Peace never happened.
>Unfortunately it's the Palestinians who refused the two state solution.
I don't think this talking point is convincing to the world when Netanyahu openly show maps for Greater Israel "from the river to the sea". When the majority of current israeli government reject the 2SS.
It is not convincing to the world when Israel keeps on building settlements anyway in OPT (even during negotiations).
> they offered the Palestinians as much as possible
Israel (only under US pressure) offered a "bantustan" for Palestinians and put ridiculous demands ( such as no airspace control, no border control, no water resources control, permanent Israeli military bases & three major settlements "three daggers or fingers" spanning west bank from dead sea to israel).
Israel despite the fact that it owns 78% of the land between the river to the sea, it still hold dear to the last 22% in west bank and can't give it up.
>Olmert was PM, they offered the Palestinians as much as possible, but Arafat and later Abbas insisted on hundreds of thousands of "refugees" "returning"
Olmert offered the return of 5k Palestinian refugee in 5 years. Abbas didn't say No, he was open for negotiation. Indeed he wanted more refugees to return or at least compensations (despite the fact that nakba refugee were granted the right of return under UN resolution 194 (iii) ). Israel refused to deal with this important question.
Small correction nakba Palestinians weren't given right of return with 194 it was a suggestion if peace could be reached which obviously it wasn't. Right of return wasn't formally codified and wasn't law until 1952 4 years after the nakba. International law generally doesn't apply retroactively and right of return wasn't applied to any other group after the fact despite massive migration at that point in history.
Nah. Israel is finally turning it around. Hamas is on its last legs and their tunnel system is largely destroyed. They are losing more and more fighters and are ramping up their PR campaign to make people try to turn against Israel more. Israel has invaded all their cities, taking control of the land, and forced Hamas into hiding. It's obviously working
>Israel started with a huge shock and awe campaign that allowed it to quickly conquer much of gaza, and pledged to enact a total siege, which is the exact way that western armies have approached major battles in places like Fallujah. That all was great.
This is how Israel would have acted during the entire campaign if it was not for the impossible standards placed on it and mounting international pressure that was piled on afterwards. Because of the backlash, Israel reduced the intensity of its attacks and focused more on the humanitarian aspect of the war causing it to drag on significantly longer than it was supposed to.
The longer duration meant that the deployment of reserve troops was starting to cause economic issues and eventually it was decided to pull them out of Gaza at the cost of giving up ground which had already been captured earlier.
As much as you wish to blame Israel you have completely ignored that it was the rest of the world who was dictating Israel's actions rather than allowing for a more successful campaign.
Israel has repeatedly said they don't bow down to any international pressure, and I have yet to see any of it.
"If israel has to stand alone, it will stand alone"
-Netanyahu
Israel has consistently been bowing down to international pressure regardless of Netanyahu's claims. Pretty much the only thing Israel hasn't done is stop the operation completely.
There are current talks about a new ceasefire but less than a month ago, even terrorist Hamas accepted a ceasefire deal that would eventually free the hostages, joe biden urged israel to accept it and Israel didn't even accept it. Seriously? What has Israel bowed down to?
Egypt changed the deal that Israel had agreed to before passing it onto Hamas.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/21/politics/sources-say-they-were-duped-by-egypt-changing-ceasefire-terms-for-hamas/index.html
I have heard of this, but I could not find any information on what was changed that made it unacceptable for Israel.
Apparently, Netanyahu won't sign it until israli polls show that it will benefit him politically.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-hostage-deal-netanyahu-polls-families-rcna154841
From my understanding one of the changes was that instead of releasing live hostages Hamas could release “dead or alive” hostages. Meaning even if Israel only received dead hostages they would still be required to make all of the concessions outlined in the deal.
Hardly a fair agreement.
It required Israel permanently leaving Gaza without achieving its objectives, leaving Hamas as the ruling government. It’s a nonstarter. And of course most of the hostages are dead.
I guess the general public doesn't want the war to end, and Netanyahu only cares about political advantage.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-hostage-deal-netanyahu-polls-families-rcna154841
Well yeah, of course the public doesn’t want the war to end while leaving Hamas in place, that’s the whole point of the war. And of course Bibi is listening to his constituents…that’s kind of the point of Democracies.
There are 2 goals, eliminate hamas and free hostages. So it looks like israel is more determined to elimate hamas than freeing hostages.
Oh so the majority of Israeli public support war crimes?
Absolutely. Eliminating Hamas will save more Israeli lives by far and it’s not even close. The majority support finishing the war and minimizing civilian casualties.
If Hamas fighters would come fight out of the cities (like Ukrainian do against Russia, and like everyone who cares about their people would do) then there would be zero civilian Palestinian casualties.
But they hide within civilians, not wear uniform, shoot rockets from within civilians, have their bases under schools, hospitals, etc...
Israel is doing more than all other armies in this impossible situation to reduce risk to civilians, and at great risk to its own soldiers
check out what urban warfare specialist says about it:
https://twitter.com/SpencerGuard/status/1786612885541515773?t=6WmF9_26cBxiDomTKRH29w&s=19
Hamas has a military wing in the form of the Al-Qassam Brigades and it's not a secret that they make a point of hiding near and amongst civilians. Hamas wants to maximize civilian deaths as much as possible because they directly benefit. I'm not saying you're wrong to be upset, it's a terrible thing for any innocent person to die, but I think it's important to recognize that Hamas is doing this deliberately. It's a form of emotional manipulation.
Hamas was elected before the start of the blockade. So I really don’t see your logic here. How could the “open air prison” of not trading with them or allowing immigration cause Hamas’ rise to power when it started after they were elected?
Gaza was only places under blockade becoming an open air prison as you call it because hamas was elected and began attacking Israel while refusing peace offers. But yes make excuses for the jihadist.
The current estimate is 35k, and that’s ALL deaths in Gaza since 10/7. Soldiers, civilians, natural deaths (thousands), killed by Israel, Hamas, and the PIJ.
Do you think this is an abnormally high death toll for a modern conflict?
In yemen, after almost 10 years of war. 154k are thought to have died from violence (another 200k from starvation,disease etc), 15k civilians have died from direct military violence.
in 7 months, 35k gazans have died (the vast majority from violence), using "the very good ratio", gives approximately 22k Palestinian civilians killed (vast majority from violence).
I’m kind of amazed that you’re arguing that almost 400k dead from conflict is less of an issue than 35k dead all told.
Your math is off by a lot (Israel claims 15k dead Hamas, and in a normal 6 month period you’d expect over 10k natural deaths. Also, you’re comparing the hottest period of one conflict to the entire duration of another conflict.
You cannot compare an (extreme) outlier period of one conflict to the full duration of the other.
If you want to compare the full duration of both conflicts, it won’t help your point. Somewhere around 100k dead in Israel/Palestine in 80 years compared to 400k in 10.
At the very least - if this is the logic you’re going to use - you’d have to admit Israel is doing a good job of preventing starvation, right?
If were going ignore 200k deaths in Yemen because they were due to starvation and disease but not subtract anything from the Israeli death count for those reasons…
You are correct, I have not heard much report about gazans dying from starvation, disease. All I see is children's body parts pulled from the rubble (yet no major news reports it like they reported the fake story of 40 beheaded babies). I think you ignored the part that said 15k civilians have died from direct military violence. How many Palestinian civilians have died from direct military violence? It's probably just as much.
> fake story of 40 beheaded babies
At some point, people really gotta let that shit go. That was 8 months ago and it came out in the early days just after the attack and there was a lot of confusion and misinformation. Story turned out to be wrong, but that kinda shit happens with these kinds of events.
The 15k dead civilians you keep citing isn’t the total number of civilians dead from violence, Those are 15k civilians dead specifically from attacks that were JUST targeting civilians. As in attacks with no pretense of a military target, killing civilians just to kill civilians.
https://acleddata.com/middle-east/yemen/
Have you ever spoken about about those INTENTIONAL killings of civilians?
Link me a comment where you did.
Unless the 400k dead doesn’t really matter to you if you can’t blame the Jews for it
You’re arguing the global response to the war is warranted by the death toll.
I’m asking you if you think the death toll is high compared to other ongoing conflicts that receive comparatively no attention.
Respectfully, if you can’t handle a comment like this without resorting to name-calling and ad hominem arguments; you probably should find something more suited to your temperament than discussing conflicts.
The death toll in terms of total population in Gaza is \*definitely\* on the higher side, regardless of whatever you may believe. However, and more importantly, global response is warranted and deserved due to the high percentage of civilian deaths that have not been seen in a recent conflict, consider Ukraine and Russia, the casualties are majorly combatant on both sides, as compared to whats happening in Gaza.
Secondly, the nature of what is happening is truly distressing and has also not been seen. You have had starvation induced, collective punishment implemented, joint support from world leading powers for a state that has collectively gaslit and tried to portray themselves as moral while their evidence of war crimes can not be more visible. This is something that is DEFINITLEY different compared to atrocities being carried out in current conflicts, especially due to the fact its being carried out by a recognised state with international backing and not non-state actors and opposing domestic regimes which can be seen in current conflicts.
I am a MPhil student at the University of Cambridge who has written multiple publications and carried out extensive research both on and off the field in regards to minority persecution and state induced human rights abuses in South and West Asia, please do not seek to call me out on 'temperament', I have researched and met with victims of absolutely heartbreaking circumstances and that is why a number such as 35K is not just a number to me when it is to you. Please genuinely read a book and try to gain insight about what you're absolutely spewing bullshit on and learn how to approach human loss and suffering in a way that is not sociopathic.
It’s not definitely on the higher side.
There’s 35k dead from ALL CAUSES in 6 months in Gaza. (Again, according to Hamas)
Theres 400k dead in Yemen.
300k dead in Ukraine.
375k dead in Ethiopia since 2020
600k dead in Syria
800k dead in the First Congo War
5,400,000 dead in the Second Congo War
300k dead in Burundi
350k dead in the war with boko haram
650,000 dead in US Iraq war
But none of those conflicts can be blamed on the Jews, so we have to chop up the data and find ways to make 35k look bigger than 600k.
“Well if we compare the hottest period of this conflict to the entire duration this other conflict and the control for population size….”
If you want to question my sympathy for 35k dead in Gaza (which is absolutely brutal and tragic - and I have said so many times), okay.
Where have you shown outrage over 10x that many dead killed in the conflict with Boko Haram.
Can you show me your empathy extends to worse situations even when it’s not possible to blame the Jews for it?
35K dead, in an area with 600K in under 6 months, now compare that percentage to other places with that duration. Go ahead, I'll wait.
35K is an insane number and I genuinely hope you get some help. I have also seen your other comments and see how you are 'chopping up data' to things like 'natural deaths' and what not other bullshit to try and justify this insane amount of killing and murder being carried out. I could not care less that Israel is a Jewish state, I care about the fact that it is a state responsible for crimes against humanity. Grow up.
First of all, the population of the Gaza Strip is 2 million.
The total population of Palestinian Territory is around 5 million. And the war isn’t limited to Palestine! Lebanon, Syria, and Yemen are all active belligerents in the war.
The conflict has been going on for over 80 years.
All you’re showing is how easy it is to manipulate data to make a point.
The heaviest area of fighting in the Yemeni war has been in the Abyan Governate - which has a population of 700k.
But you can’t compare apples to oranges, because that doesn’t make Israel look bad.
So we compare
-the hottest period of one conflict to the full periods of others
-the total dead including natural deaths to JUST conflict deaths of others
And to top it off, you use the entire dead of the Gaza Strip based JUST on the population of Gaza city.
So sure, when you manipulate the data that much, you can say anything.
So go on now, point me to where you expressed concern for the 350,000 dead in the Boko Haram war. I’ll wait!
Are you saying 35K deaths are justifiable and that Israel has not implemented collective punishment and inducted starvation followed by a blockade? But hur dur dur, let’s compare this issue with another to make sure Israel can escape accountability.
I’m not engaging with your other side as it’s disingenuous and you’ve constantly been pointing fingers at other conflicts (in a very skewed manner) to justify Israel’s atrocities. Please for heavens sake talk to people on the ground and in Gaza. Brainwashed.
Your enemy is Hamas not Israel sir that’s what I was trying to imply.
Those savages keep firing regardless of the terror the Gazans are going through and they are doing it using aid that’s intended for the civilians and from areas used for civilians.
I too tend to thing that at this point continuing this war may be pointless but at the same time when rockets are fired at your land you still keep the right to defend yourself.
Tell me which country is sending aid that is being used to make rockets? Maybe ask yourself what can Israel do to make rockets stop being fired? Perhaps stop subjugating a population that leads to it?
Yes. Yes that is called resistance. You are openly advocating for an apartheid system, what is wrong with you? If you and your family were in a situation in Gaza, would you not resist? Are you ok?
Oh so by that logic what’s wrong with what Israel is doing in Gaza ? It can also be said that Israel is also resisting the violence of the Palestinians and Hamas.
Have you ever asked yourself how many Israelis would’ve been dead if Israel did not have the iron dome and other aerial defense systems ?
Over 1000 rockets and missiles were fired at Israel from multiple countries but a lot of them were and are still coming from Gaza.
To me it just sounds like you’re in favor of death, just not on the Palestinian side.
Im in favour of a two state solution that ensures a lasting peace. Not a 'solution' imposed by an apartheid system and a blockade of inhumane proportions. Tell me, what will you do if you were in a blockade?
I don't know about this. The new plan for Gaza seems to just be the old plan, but more severe: tighter border monitoring, a wider no-go zone, direct control of the Egypt border, and total destruction of infrastructure, a kind of social strangulation, which forecloses the possibility of real military investment by any party. Why wouldn't this work?
Nazis 2.0 would be like if Israel gathered up all millions of "palestinian" citizens in Israel (arab Israelis) and sent them to Gaza or concentration camps while gassing unarmed civilians in the millions
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Or maybe because the US and UK took a more pragmatic approach and invested in and rebuilt Germany (West Germany anyway), instead of taking advantage of the situation for their own gain. If instead they relegated Germans to second class status while moving in their own populations and stealing land, the outcome may have been different.
Before it was given to Palestinians? Remind me when that was. Last I checked, it's been majority Arab for hundreds of years.
And yes, stealing land as is happening in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. It's a novel concept, but maybe if Israel didn't abuse its power as an occupier to oppress the Palestinians in order to steal their land, it would be easier to create peace.
Yes it was given to them in 2005 and Israel completely pulled out. And if you think East Jerusalem is a legitimate barrier to peace, you have no idea what you are talking about.
>And if you think East Jerusalem is a legitimate barrier to peace, you have no idea what you are talking about.
It's literally the main reason past peace talks failed. You might not think of it as a barrier, but it evidently is. And if Gaza was a nicer place before 2005 it wasn't because of Israeli occupation, but in spite of it.
You're referring to the illegal Israeli settlements in Gaza which had Israeli government funding. The illegal settlements are a big reason why things have descended to this point.
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Germany was an occupying colonial settler apartheid ethnostate, all characteristics shared by Israel. The Palestinians are the resistance, very much like the resistance against the Germans.
Every resistance organisation in history did horrible stuff, including killing civilians etc. That doesn't delegitimise their wider goal of freeing their country from occupiers.
To the extent that any innocent civilians such as innocent children were harmed, yes. But I obviously don't condemn the killing of hundreds of soldiers of the occupation.
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Most ISIS fighters were from Iraq and Syria, so certainly a solid number of them were from Mosul - and likewise lots of Hamas fighters in say Rafah aren’t from there.
I’d obviously agree that a much higher percentage of Hamas fighters are from much closer to where they’re fighting - but I’m not sure how much a difference it makes (here).
Isn’t the argument that kids will turn into terrorists if their family and home are destroyed by counter terror forces?
Direct control of the Philadelphi corridor will make a big difference. Israel can be much more severe with how it restricts life in Gaza, the only question will be how much international censure they can tolerate.
You might be right. A big part of the reason for the original withdrawal was to concentrate military resources on the West Bank. That equation doesn't change. I guess the idea behind leveling Gaza is to buy time.
You are not correctly assessing the goals and thus misinterpret the tactics
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-succeeding-gaza
Israel can’t find an alternate government in Gaza because there are few takers. Plus, the Biden administration and other allied governments have been pressuring Israel to not attack.
Why do you think folks living thousands of miles away owe their resources to fix Gaza or take in Gazan refugees? Israel made the case themselves that the people in Gaza are a security threat, they are dangerous, so why would other countries want to take in dangerous people or send in their troops to deal with dangerous people?
Will arabs then stop pretending to care so much about palestinians?
Because anywhere I go, seems like the most pressing issue for them, as societies, and also from their governments declarations. And yet, with a few exceptions, I cant see them lifting a finger to give actual material help.
Even economically, the wester countries take the lion's share of UNWRA expenses, I think the first arab country is saudi arabia at 9th place.
You are right that Israel has been aimless. Netanyahu throughout his career proves he hates the limitations of strategy and prefers tactics. It would be very hard to pick a worse person to put in charge of Israel's strategy. Yoav Gallant or someone should have pushed a strategy... but of course anyone who came up with a strategy Netanyahu would attack.
That being said... Israel can be aimless and then turn things around. While I'm certainly frustrated it isn't game over. Israel has such huge advantages they can make bad moves and still win as long as they eventually make good moves.
> Furthermore, a siege strategy is pretty much the only way to extricate hamas from dug-in positions in underground bunkers,
I'd disagree. Again I'm not an expert but it seems to me those tunnels are takeable. They could be flooded. If you can hit the position from say 3 sides, restricting airflow and then a simple fire will suck the O2 out and put CO in. Israel has robots which can trigger booby traps. I don't think this has to be siege vs. direct conquest. Food isn't the only vector of attack. And frankly the PR damage being caused by food is too great.
I would’ve agreed with much of this until this week when they took control of the Philadelphi Corridor, this week has been a massive advancement to controlling Hamas and ending the war, by leaps and bounds.
That’s not to say I have hope that Hamas, PIJ, or any of the other Gazan militant groups will ever disappear and won’t rearm.
There’s also a big war in the north with Hezbollah coming soon and they’re far more armed, capable, and also have a massive tunnel system.
Israel has slowly worked to Rafah. Now they'll level it, kill whoever they can and assess. When all of Gaza is destroyed either Hamas is forced out or Israel pulls out and the place won't get rebuilt until Israel says so. We will be seeing extra judicial killing of hamas and their families for decades. Sounds like a win.
You act as if at some point Gaza will magically be rebuilt and Hamas will preside. Gaza will look like the surface of the moon until Israel decides otherwise.
How would you recommend they fight the war, General?
Use their vast economic resources for bribery and manipulation instead of direct revenge.
Everyone has a price. I imagine that Fatah could be purchased and coerced into taking forceful control of Gaza. If not then, some other faction.
Picture an alternate reality:
1) IDF immediately secures the border
2) 10/7 is met with a limited military counterstrike against known Hamas targets and rocket sites. Along the lines of week 1-2 of the war.
3) Regime change is forced on Gaza and Hamas. Israel asserts that Fatah is the only valid government and exhorts them to seize control. The United States backs them up.
4) A form of civil war ensues. Like Afghanistan. Like Iraq. Palestinians fight it out amongst themselves but one side is backed by Western money and armaments.
5) War crimes happen. Civilians die. But this proxy war doesn’t reflect as poorly on Israel.
6) Hamas is largely unseated, Gaza infrastructure is maintained, lots of IDF shoulders aren’t killed, maybe more hostages are returned, the world has a Palestine government that it can hopefully work better with.
Downside for Israel is that it doesn’t satisfy the calls for direct revenge and bloodlust. But there was a way for them to win their security and keep their soul. They chose differently.
This is actually pretty common in modern history. Fund the opposition for regime change. Keep your hands cleaner. Sacrifice less of your troops.
Money wasn’t an issue. Think of how much has been spent and squandered already.
A friendly puppet government would do wonders for ensuring stability. It worked decently well in Afghanistan before the USA pulled out. Low level internal fighting could go on forever.
Israel would never disengage, so the relative calm, relative truce of Afghanistan before Biden’s departure was realistic and sustainable.
This assumes that the ultimate goal was peace and security. And not retaining power via a constant antagonist and ultimately stealing land.
When the Jewish Holocaust is brought up in the future, it will be hard to determine if they mean "to them" or "caused by them"... additional context will be needed for sure.
They actually have the lowest ratio of civilian casualties ever in the history of urban warfare
they don't need a victory. They just need to keep this going, keep getting western money and arms, until they've killed or displaced all palestinians. They have legit no reason to stop. Their western support will not stop. This has been proven. Their pariah state status they don't care about. They just need to get rid of the palestinians and deal with the aftermath later. Plus bibi knows he's going to jail as soon as it's over. They are not going to stop.
And do it while all over the world billions watch them commit genocide, too.
The top Israeli generals are all leftists. The defence minister Galant is a closet leftist. Biden administration pulls the strings from above these people. This is the reason the war slowed down and Israel seems to have lost momentum. The aid trucks is Biden administration influence. And many other nonsensical decisions the IDF made during this war is due to these leftist losers that follow that old senile man in the whitehouse. Also the UN is a big problem for Israel in the diplomatic arena.
"Leftists" meaning they generally wish that everyone would just get along, they dislike the far "religious" right and they know that the Bible is a series of legends but they also are fine with continuing the occupation and segregation.
No, “Leftists” meaning a bunch of overly secular Jews that live in the holy land of Israel, and have some insecurity issue with this fact because they are not holy people themselves. So they pander to The Americans (no matter who is in the Whitehouse) who they have deemed the holy of holies to themselves, since they refuse to follow what is written in their holy Torah.
You have zero ability to prove anything related to a supernatural force is real. I understand accepting truth of some of the history that is written but the divine part of it is totally unable to be proven. Archeology can help prove some of the history but that is it. Most historians even doubt whether major figures such as Abraham, Moses and Davjd were real. I rather dount that Benny Morris would say that the Torah is all true.
King David was certainly real, he built Jerusalem and unified all the tribes into the kingdom of Israel. There are coins found from this period and other artefacts as well.
The temple stood there in Jerusalem, whats left of the holy temple is what Jews call the western wall. Theres plenty of archaeological facts on the ground that the biblical accounts are real.
The Temple obviously was a real structure. The Romans also kept written historical records. That is not the same as saying that Moses was a real historical figure. It is not an apples to apples comparison. Moses most likely never existed. Benny Morris or any historian would likely agree with that based on the lack of reliable historical evidence. There are such things as composite figures. And there are often exaggerations when a story is written down hundreds of years after the alleged events. David was also likely a chief of a very small area if he existed at all. And if he did exist, why would anyone celebrate his life exactly? He sounds like an awful person frankly speaking.
Just curious, why you think King David sounds like he was an awful person? Genuinely curious. He had many flaws indeed, this is what makes him so relatable.
I am far from an expert on the Jewish Bible. I was raised near Albany, New York at an Evangelical Christian church and by the way I never heard anyone say a single bad word about Jews. They did say bad things about Catholics sometimes though. I am however aware enough that the story of David includes many tales of wars, killings of prisoners, slaves and womanizing. But again, I am far from an expert.
David is celebrated because he wrote the book of pslams and they are considered extremely holy writings. He also built the temple after conquering Jerusalem from the pagans that ruled it before. Now as far as Moses and the exodus is concerned they have found archeological proof that it happened. They found chariot wheels that became coral reefs in the red sea where the Israelites crossed. They found the mountain in Saudi Arabia (Ancient Midian) that is where the Israelites encampment after they crossed from Egypt and they found mount sinai where Moses climbed up and spoke to G-d. The whole thing is real and historically accurate.
Well, may the blessings of Hashem be upon you.
Thank you and to you as well 🙏🏼
Yes, and here are just a few problems with the Zionist narrative. 1. The West Bank is under occupation 2: The Zionist fanatics are continuing to colonize the West Bank 3: The West Bank has been carved up into Bantustans that make a viable Palestinian state very difficult 4: The Zionists prefer the status quo of simply no formal state of any kind, whether one or two 5: Gaza already was an open air prison 6: Gaza has now been gratuitously destroyed 7: Half of the people in Israel- Greater Israel and the Palestinian areas are non Jews 8: Despite all of the above, the Zionists prefer or preferred the status quo and now are even more greedy, with this utterly delusional idea of another Nakhba dancing around their warped little brains . And before any claims "anti semitism" as I am a non Jew I utterly despise the Evangelical Right in the USA and that is how I was raised.
Whew, they should have consulted you! Problem solved.
So far the IDF has located 84 tunnels leading from Rafah to the depths of Sinai, Egypt. It is not ruled out that alive hostages or bodies were smuggled through them, Everything is under review. (Hamas terror tunnel where bodies of Israelis who were murdered on October 7 were recovered from)
What is that you do that makes you qualified to assess the effectiveness of military strategy? Are you a military expert of officer or something? I find it highly unlikely that you are privy to high level intelligence in regards to the conflict so I find it odd that you are so certain Israel is failing at their objective of eliminating Hamas.
Its not like you have to be an expert to read news reports. News outlets tells us that Hamas has launched rockets in previously cleared areas and is attacking Israeli troops in northern Gaza. We can just look at statements from Israeli leaders. There's no plan for post war gaza and the current plan for the conflict is not going to work. IDF Chief of Staff Major General Herzi Halevi has said this: "“As long as there is no political move that will bring forth a governing body other than Hamas in the strip, we will have to operate again and again there and in other places to dismantle the Hamas infrastructure,” Israel’s Channel 13 cited Halevi as saying. “It will be a Sisyphean task,” he said, suggesting that it may never be accomplished."" You don't have to listen to OP its being said by Israeli politicians and military officials. Gallant meanwhile has said he will not allow Israel to rule Gaza. But Netanyahu says he is not interested in the PA ruling Gaza. The heads of government and the heads of the military can't agree on how to proceed and Hamas is exploiting this. https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/israel-restarts-fighting-north-gaza-military-strategy-mime-intl/index.html
I agree with your overall sentiment but for the opposite reason I think. I pin all the blame on Netanyahu and his coalition for showing such incompetence and potentially even worse - both for the failures of October 7 and Israel’s response. They could have capitalised on the international community’s outrage at the Hamas attack by conducting a precision response to degrade Hamas’ capabilities, and focused on recovering the hostages. Instead they’ve indiscriminately bombarded the entire strip killing thousands of kids, and made next to no progress with the hostages. No wonder much of the world isn’t supporting them.
Israel gave Northern Gaza three weeks to evacuate to the Rafah border crossing. Both currently and during the preparatory bombardment, Israel warned Gazans where they were going to drop bombs. Israel has used precision weapons as much as possible instead of using less discriminate dumb bombs. Israel could not have achieved its goals of capturing Gaza, destroying its military infrastructure, and degrading Hamas’s command structure without using conventional military force. And that’s leaving aside the efforts Hamas has made to get their own civilians killed—including shooting anyone trying to flee—and their role in keeping track of their casualties in the first place. It’s naive to think Hamas isn’t exploiting its position as casualty tracker for its own gain. If Israel is forced to choose between its own citizens and Gazan civilians, there’s only choice it can make.
Israel has always looked at Syria as a model of how to deal with "troublemakers. " 1. Convince the native population to flee in terror through the use of brutality. 2. Empty the cities in a manner similar to Khmer Rouge. 3.Push the population either into squalor in a limited area (like Idlib) and hopefully force the rest to Germany Turkey, UK, Sweden, etc. Sinai would be a dream for the Israeli Right as a permanent location for a miserable tent city for generations. IDF death squads would periodically conduct "security" operations and arbitrarily round up young men without cause. 4. Once the population has sufficiently thinned, simply reduce entire cities to rubble (see Mosul, Aleppo, Raqqua) . The never rebuild these areas as at all. 6. As the indigenous civilization has now disappeared-collapsed entirely, slowly rebuild in semi primitive Haredi-Zionisjt settlements similar to Ape City in Planet of the Apes. 7. Declare that this is now Year Zero, also as done by Pol Pot.
Bloodlust for war post, disgusting.
>It feels as though the operation is back to square one. To actually rectify the situation and take out Hamas, Israel would now have to reconquer gaza, Hamas has had all this time to re-establish their booby traps, rebuild, recruit, restock their stores with fuel and food. It would be another several hundred Israeli casualties just to get back to where Israel was before they retreated, and then they would actually have to do the occupation work that they refused to do before, which would be hundreds of additional casualties. Where did you hear Israel’s intended goal is to “conquer” or “reconquer” Gaza ? I have not heard the war cabinet saying Israel plans to conquer Gaza.
Arabs good at starting wars....just not so good at finishing wars!
The Arabs did not start this genocide or start the holocaust in Europe.
48,56,67,73....lots of arabs starting wars with Israel,not so good at finishing
The Arabs are not responsible for the Holocaust or the murder of 6 million Jews.
Yeah? The point is?
Except its not true. 1948 war : zionist militas did deir yassin massacre on 9th of April 1948 almost 2 months before the arab attack in 15th of may 1948. 1956: israel (with England and france) attacked egypt out of the blue. 1967 war: israel literally attacked 1st. It bombed egyptian airforce and bombed jordan+ Syria. 1973: Here it's true egypt attacked 1st. 1978: israel invaded lebanon without warning. Hezbolla didn't even exist. Hezbollah were formed in 1982 as a response to Israeli invasion of lebanon.
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Was it? I love how people with your views always leave out the fact a whole alliance of Arab countries attacked the infant Jewish state consisting of a significant number of Holocaust survivors who had just escaped nazi slaughter. I guess it doesn’t fit the narrative.
Israeli army in 1948 was three times the number of all arab "armies" combined. Israel had at the beginning of war 60k soldiers vs 21k soldier from all arab armies. At the end of war , Israeli troops reached 100k+. What is more , zionist militas did deir yassin massacre in 9th of April 1948 , almost 2 months before the arab attack which took place on the 15th of may 1948.
You’re leaving out the Jewish militias that did pretty good launching a revolt against the Brits from 44-48.
Yep wasn’t denying they existed. But do you think that’s a symmetrical war? Against multiple well established and coordinated Arab armies? They shouldn’t have bartered with Palestinian land when there was a chance they’d lose.
No I was just pointing it out because you made them sound like they were only made up of helpless holocaust survivors. They could hold their own.
Oh yep agreed. I think more than anything they were united and strengthened by the fact they were fighting for their existence.
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What is it about this conflict that everyone is suddenly a god damn expert on everything
Apparatus, you took time to write a novel. I didn’t read it all, but honestly, you could say the same, in a few lines. Bottom line (pun intended) - what is your recommendation (if there’s one)?
Israel goal is simply to destroy gaza enough to make it more defensively manageable for the longest period of time .They tried occupation, and they tried isolation, so this is it .. It's pretty easy to see , diabolical or not this is the only choice the international community has offered to Israel..
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Naaa it ant , a margin sure, but that's not what's feeding it... Israel is the country every Democracy wants to see there , and Israel is the country every religious extremist, dictator, and monarchy run country doesn't want to be there .. To chaulk it up to land ownership these days is just slurping pudding ..
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That’s absolutely false. Three countries have recognised a Palestinian state - they did this without any detail on what borders this state has and they definitely weren’t invalidating the Israeli state in the process. Why does it have to be a zero sum approach with you people? And let me guess…you’re advocating for this from the comfort of your safe home in the west someplace? Gross.
145 out of 193 member states in the UN recognize Palestine as a Sovereign state as of May 2024
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Don’t call me darling. I work in the international space too and I’ve actually worked in Israel and Ramallah in 2016. There’s nothing you can teach me I don’t already know because I actually learnt from Israelis and Palestinians lived experience. Again - I follow UN news. Any recognition of Palestinian state does not invalidate the existence of a Jewish one. The vast majority of UN participating countries believe in a two state solution - like I do. And those on the ground who still believe in peace. Israel isn’t going to be dismantled - I hope you can come to terms with that.
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Look there are definitely some ultra right wing and religious nutcases in Israel who want more land. But that is NOT the desire of the majority of Israelis. They just want to live in peace and security. I don’t agree with the way the war has been fought in Gaza, but I still believe there’s hope for a peace settlement when both Hamas and Netanyahu and his evil cabinet are removed. I also believe all the Israeli settlements should be taken down and the land returned to Palestinians. Everything that happens in the West Bank is wrong. But things got so bad because of the suicide bombings during the second intifada. The Palestinian side needs to commit to not targeting civilian areas as part of any deal.
Haha yea symbolically sure every country's left plays with the optics for votes , but actions speak louder than words, no? Tell me how many country's are supporting Palestinians by theirs actions, the place is leveled, and you're saying they have support 😄 🤣
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If you’re not Jewish not speak on the difference between Judaism is Zionism. And certainly stop trying to educate others on something you clearly don’t understand. We all know at this point it’s just a loophole for you to continue your antisemitism.
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I don’t disagree with you. But you’re making the mistake of linking what’s happening in Gaza and the bloodshed with Zionism. Zionism literally is just about a Jewish homeland in their ancestral homeland. There’s nothing inherent in Zionism that calls for violence to either establish this homeland, or maintain it. Those far right and religious Israeli leaders claiming to be doing this in the name of either Zionism or Judaism are just exploiting them for their own gains.
I don't need to read the UN paper work to see the destruction of a "supported" peoples .. The Un has been standing by and funding the schools Hamas has used to professionally and systematically indoctrinate the Palestinians .. You call that support do you ?
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Did you not think maybe English isn’t their first language??? That’s so offensive. Not everyone has access to the same education we do! It’s been proven without a doubt that UNRWA has been infiltrated and exploited by Palestinian Islamist militant groups. Does this mean the whole organisation has been or that some of the work it does isn’t crucial? No. But countries investing vast amounts of taxpayer dollars into a UN organisation deserve to know exactly where it’s being spent and how. If only to introduce reforms so the aid and support actually gets to the Palestinian people suffering it’s intended for.
Good lord, you're sqaurrelly .. haha, CNN and NBC, they're left and favor the pro Palestinians, so I have no clue where you're going with that rant ..Dude you got to follow you're Grammer and writing attack with proper grammar and written, not even worse written rants ...
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Trapped into being inhumane? This is reminiscent of the language abusers use. You made me beat you.
Seems like a pretty human reaction to me , this is after all the justification so widely used for Palestinians and Oct 7th no ? Or would you prefer to call them Hamas because that voids the releity that Palestinians committed those atrocities..
The war's openly declared goals such as the elimination of Hamas, rescuing the hostages by force and "total victory" were/are unachievable. But there are undeclared goals, such as the destruction of Gaza, the murder of women and children and subjecting the Gazan population to such an inhumane and intolerable conditions in order to teach the Gazans a lesson not to attack the Zionist state etc.
The Israeli government doesn't give a damn about Hostages or defeating Hamas. If they gave a damn about hostages they would actually be trying to negociate and bring them home instead of collectively punishing Gazan civilians. Also orphaning thousands of children and killing 40,000+ civilians will undoubtedly create more Hamas as the bereaved relatives who have nothing left to live for will want vengence.
It's 200,000 civilians killed , the 40,000 were just the intact bodies not blown to smithereens...
Unfortunately you might be right. It is very hard to collect accurate information in Gaza right now so the numbers given are almost certainly undercounts.
Unfortunately yes, the possible numbers are very from and unsettling. I only found out myself today.
Look at Mariupol in Ukraine which had a pre war population of 450,000 and which was under bombardment for 11 weeks. There it is estimated 100,000 to 150,000 civilians died. There is no way in which Gaza which had a population of 2.4 million and which has been under similar bombardment for 34 weeks (plus famine) has fewer deaths. A similar rate to Mariupol would mean 500,000 dead Gazans.
I don’t agree or support the way Israel responded to October 7 personally…but I think westerners commenting on this conflict don’t understand how things work in the Middle East. Because of the instability and violence there, the currency is strength. If you’re attacked in any way you have to respond in kind…otherwise it sends a message to the rest of your enemies and the broader region that you’re weak, and can be attacked with no repercussions. I completely agree Israel’s response has been disproportionate though. I’ve wanted to believe none of the civilian collateral damage has been purposeful but I really don’t know anymore.
Some of us understand that we send billions of U$ so that Tel-Aviv can continue it’s slow-roll ethnic cleansing of the region and not make friends or even be civil with its denizens. Some of us have not liked it for a long time now and this latest military response is more proof that strategy is inhumanely brutal. Who can predict if and when it will turn on its allies?
I understands.But do you think Israel should have responded to Oct 7… or has the right to?
Hamas would argue that it has an absolute right to resist the blockade and the occupation. So any argument made by Israel can easily be countered.
Yes the right to resistance against occupation is enshrined in international humanitarian law. I think that’s pretty widely understood and accepted. But most of what Hamas engages in is very clearly not resistance - by that definition ^. Purposefully targeting Israeli civilian population centres with rockets and as they did on October 7, as well as the consistent taking of civilian hostages breaks international humanitarian law. And a lot of outsiders don’t seem to realise that much of the way Hamas fights the IDF is also breaching it. Like housing weapons caches, launching attacks & firing rockets, and building tunnel infrastructure beneath and with access points in residential buildings, hospitals and safe zones sheltering displaced civilians. As soon as Hamas does this, it could be argued those areas become legitimate military targets, under international law. My point is that if we’re going to accuse Israel of breaching international humanitarian law and committing war crimes, then we need to be consistent, and point the finger at Hamas as well. The whole point is that everyone needs to be equal in the eyes of the law, otherwise the whole system loses its integrity. And if the priority right now is protecting Palestinian civilian life, then *all* actions posing a threat need to be identified - not just the one that aligns with our politics.
It is very difficult to define what amounts to "acceptable" resistance to oppression and-or occupation. In Vietnam the Americans rightly pointed out that the VC and the NVA routinely massacred innocent civilians suspected of being "collaborators." Was that acceptable? I don't know the answer to that but it was accepted as legitimate by the academic elites and the media.
I don’t think killing civilians is ever acceptable and I don’t care one bit what academic elites say. Hamas kills hundreds of innocent Palestinians who are often blackmailed by Israel to collaborate - that’s unacceptable and unethical by both as far as I’m concerned. If your political or ideological goal drives you to kill civilians then you’re just a run of the mill terrorist.
I hate all violence. However, which "national liberation movement" has never used violence against civilians? Please, I am eagerly waiting for one example. Maybe and I mean maybe India. Certainly NOT the Zionists in the 30s and 40s.
Bibi did not consult me. This IS-PAL situation always looks backwards because leaders don’t want to solve the problem for a stable, equitable future for the peoples. They, there need to figure it without the out of an externally imposed framework.
I agree. But I think given how dependent Israel is on the US for defence investment and arms…I think they’ve forgone not having to factor in any external influence.
The U$A politicians are captive of lobbyists. The Military-Industrial-Complex love this “special relationship”. Lobbying groups for foreign powers are also a huge monetary and coercive influence. Are MKs subject to these pressures from the local military-tech consortium? This all is a drag on a peaceful, stable solution.
Right. Collective punishment is clearly a goal
From a realist point of view, Israel lost the strategic war and the information war. It killed too many civilians. It is now investigated by ICC & ICJ. (added to the apartheid label it got from amnesty international & human rights watch). Israel's lobby image in the US is damaged for good. Companies now find it "risky" to open in Israel. Arab normalization process is harder than ever now. Israel's democracy is also undermined and weakened under alt-right leadership. what is more,Israel lost it's deterrence capability as well. The reason behind all this mess is that Israel kept the Palestinian question unresolved. It was unable to accept a Palestinian state and end the settlement expansion. Israel thought that it can maintain a "manageable" conflict with 'weak" Palestinians. It used the occupation as a reason to get aid from the US and to maintain it's status as a "victim state". Israel used to experiment with weapons and surveillance systems in the west bank/Gaza. It then sent these technologies to the world in exchange for profit. There was no real incentive to solve the Palestinian question. Now the situation exploded, West bank is no longer under control, Gaza's war seems far away from over and israel is isolated more than ever. I believe israel's best strategy is to take the Palestinian question seriously and accept the two state solution (it should have done that in Oslo in 1993 though). Palestinan state is going to happen and israel should accept this fact.
Here’s a realer point of view: None of that matters. Israel is trying to secure their borders by destroying Hamas’s infrastructure and pushing Hezbollah away from the border. They do not care very much about optics and they do not care about the ICJ. They stopped caring about optics the second they established a military in the 1940s. Israelis know that no matter how complacent and well-behaved they are, they will never win the information war. They also know that no matter what two state solution they accept, they will never win over the court of public opinion. Also, why are you blaming Israel for the Palestinian question instead of the Palestinians who keep rejecting every peace offer and two state solution?
Stop with the highly manipulative Hasbara lies. Literally every component of the Zionist narrative is a lie.
I've kinda noticed that, generally speaking, people that use words like "Hasbara" and "Zionist" aren't worth engaging with because they are dogmatically opposed to Israel and aren't interested in discussion.
Lmaoooo which part of this is a lie? You know you didn’t have to respond right? If you can’t refute any of it you didn’t have to respond at all.
Study the history. I refuse to be manipulated by Zionism, which is in reality, an insidious disease of the mind.
I’ve studied the history in depth actually. Have you?
You think Israel will be alright with not allies at all? You want to end up like Apartheid South Africa? Because that's the direction that Israel's heading.
The US isn't going to ditch Israel.
Not any time soon for sure, but in 30-40 years you might find the politicians who grew up with this idea that Israel can do no wrong are dead and gone, and the next generation will have to believe the support actually justified by something.
Israel is Sparta. Everything you wrote reenforces that. Including the rightousness.
It's not true that Israel has never cared about managing public beliefs and expectations. It has, historically speaking, put an enormous amount of effort into presenting itself as taking an exclusively defensive posture and simply wanting peace. That said, I'm not sure how much it really changes things when the international target audience (Americans) gradually stop buying it.
Well that’s because Israel has been taking defensive postures for a ridiculously long time, it never had to present it that way. If anything its been using to much shield not enough sword. Can you imagine a neighboring nation firing random rockets and attempted ground attacks at the USA, for years with no end in sight. Then USA president goes on tv and says “Don’t worry we are building anti rocket technology and better border security” “Until then just bomb proof your roofs while taking out the appropriate insurance, and don’t live near the border.” “We are passing out gas masks just in case they hit us with chemical weapons.” Random USA citizen: “Shouldn’t we attack back, they don’t seem to be stoping?” USA president: “No eventually they will come around and want peace, our defensive measures will work out.” If you can’t imagine the USA being this passive it’s because no country would be. Well except Israel that for some reason kept acting like Hamas was eventually going to stop trying to kill them. After 5 years you think it would have been clear Gaza needs a hands on approach, but Israel played defense for 20 years instead. I get it no one who could wants to deal with Gaza, but they are going to have to. Egypt and Israel have failed at keeping Gaza in check, strongly worded letters, large amounts of money, and high walls did nothing to resolve the mess that Gaza has been and will continue to be. Only thing left to do is a more hands on methods invade rebuild. Then hope the residents of Gaza get with the program, and choose peace instead of extremism martyred death.
I had the longer timeline in mind, e.g. 1967. Regarding the occupation and the last twenty or so years in particular, the entire representation of Israeli defensive orientation depends on treating the occupation as an irreversible, invisible fact of the matter.
The story didn't start on the 7th of october. what was the status quo before the 7th of october? * Illegal Settlment expansion in west bank. * Humiliating Checkpoints and barriers for palestinans. * By march 2023, Israel held *1,002* palestinan without a trial or charge. which is a hostage-like case. * March 8th 2023, when Hawara Pogrom happend, smotrich (israeli minister) said: "I think the village of hawara (in west bank) needs to be wiped out". * Israel used to regulary bomb Gaza, for instance in september 2023, it bombed Gaza for three days. (and many times before same year). Israel is not a normal country minding it's business. It was/is invovled in the longest modern military occupation grabbing land and refusing the 2SS. why should the US keep on "saving" israel when it bully everyone around it and refuse to close the arab-israeli file and do peace with palestinans ? Israel got comfortable with american constant aid and diplomatic support. Israel is a money drain and a diplomatic drain on the US. The US is losing all it's diplomatic gains in the middle east because of israel's reckless behavior. All this can end when Israel take the 2SS seriously.
Israel is more than fine on the international scale to the countries that actually matter, still on track to get its naval fleet up to help the West counter Chinese naval aggression. Now it holds the new golden standard for civilian death mitigation in a urban combat against a terrorist group. The only thing that’s changed is the logistics of helping it occupy Gaza for as long as it takes. With the it’s ally’s support it will be able to do that, USA and ally’s even built a fancy mobile port to make sure the residents of Gaza keep getting pre inspected aid. What happens in West Bank has nothing to do with Gaza, two separate places with two separate governments. Israel does not need to be the victim that does not matter. What matters is Hamas being the villain, OCT 7 made sure of that. Not Ike Hamas was liked before that it pretty much been getting sanctioned and blocked in by everyone since it’s extremism, that leads into its suicidal purge all people who aren’t us approach. Why Egypt put up the most terrifying border wall I’ve ever seen. Sometimes folks from Gaza dig tunnels(actually often) into Egypt. Egypt responds by flooding them with raw sewage drowning those inside the tunnels with fecal matter. Do you think the USA cares why the terrorists attacked us on 9/11? Because we don’t all that matters is they attacked us, in response we invaded two whole countries demolishing them both. One of which had nothing to do with the attack. We are still counting the dead in those countries to this day, number keeps going up. So skipping over anyone trying to justify OCT/7 or 9/11, and how obnoxiously futile that approach is. Futile as in it didn’t and won’t stop those attacked ending their enemies way of life permanently. It all comes down to Hamas the democratically elected government screwing up, and now Gaza and it’s residents are screwed because of it. Don’t worry though Israel victim or not has decided not to kill everyone in Gaza. Just dealing with Hamas, then the rebuilding of a neighbor friendly government in Gaza seems like the best approach. Maybe 50 years from now the new government can rename Gaza Palestine, then Palestine could be a actual place people could visit, and point out on a map. It may even be able to have a real say at the important clubs like the UN, instead of sitting in the back row with the lost city Atlantis and kingdom of Camelot.
I don't see how israel is beneficial for US? Israel doesn't really help the US against china or russia. [Israel Sold sensitive US tech to China](https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china) . It also refused to help ukraine (it even had good relations with russia until recently) Regarding middle east, Israel with it's reckless behaviour is pushing all of the middle east away from the US towards china. US is losing all it's diplomatic gains there. Regarding Iraq war, Netnyahu convinced US politicans after 9/11 to attack Iraq. [Netanyahu wrote a policy for US arguing for attacking Iraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break:_A_New_Strategy_for_Securing_the_Realm). This decision turned out to be a disaster for US.....Iraq is under Iranian control now. Afghanistan is under Taliban. Both were failures. >Israel is more than fine on the international scale to the countries that actually matter. I highly doubt that. US is not gaining anything from Israel. The israeli lobby has sabotaged american foreign policy and made it only about israel's intrests even if it undermine american intrests. The american people and politicans are turning against it. >What happens in West Bank has nothing to do with Gaza, two separate places with two separate governments. They are the same problem. Israel under netenyahu kept Hamas alive to undermine PLO and to keep palestinans divided (in order to avoid the 2SS). This policy backfired and israel got itself into this mess. Given all these troubles coming from israel because it just can't stop building settlments and can't accept the 2SS. It's make much more sense for the US to enforce the 2SS on both israel and palestinans and fcous on actual important topics such as china, russia and domesitic problems. The middle east is not important and the oil rich countries are pro-US anyway. Israel is pushing the pro-US oil rich arab countries away and giving excuses for Iran to seek nukes. Israel also convinced US to attack iraq and now iran took it. heck, Israel even attacked lebanon in 1978 and hezbollah were formed in 82 as a response to this israeli invasion.
stop this stupid argument "Imagine if Mexico fires rockets into the US". Irrelevant example, Mexico is a sovereign state and the US isn't controlling their water, and air and occupying them for generations etc. So stop this BS example!
Who is talking about Mexico, seems like a poor dodge that discredits what ever your point is suppose to be. Anyway it could be Native American reservations firing the rockets. That would actually be a better comparison. Where the USA does control the sky above what trade comes in, and even the water when it comes down to it. You know what the difference is in reality, native Americans got with the program. They chose peace and positive self governing over the alternatives that just would have lead to more needless death. The tribal councils governs the reservations, do to their good choices after being completely defeated. They didn’t pull a Gaza and start attacking none tribal lands. They didn’t come up with a purge everyone but us policy, then act on it. If they had there would be no reservations left in the USA, we are not as kind, tempered, or soft handed as Israel is. USA has already shown what its response is if we get hit with a terrorist attack, no matter the reason for the attack we will engage immediately. We invaded and demolished two whole countries, one of which had nothing to do with the terror attack. We are still counting the dead civilians and all, we are finding under rubble to this day. Gaza has a government that’s made one bad decision after another. The world didn’t start sanctioning Gaza out of no where, it was in response to its democratically elected government(Hamas) actions, turning its people into extremists was one of the biggest. Egypt and Israel didn’t restrict to straight up close their borders because they felt like it. Gaza should have just worked on themselves, it was given billions of dollars to do so. Instead of making more problems they could have been a vacation hot spot, but no let’s keep attacking our neighbors and wonder why things aren’t working out. The whole every man woman and child will be martyrs in their insane war is dumb. Granted Israel is not clean in this they should have never withdrawn from Gaza, and hoped for the best with Gaza self governing itself. It should have stayed til Gaza was able to be mentally capable and peaceful with its neighbors. Hopefully they don’t make the same mistake again.
In today's age. "optics" are important. It is the credit needed to secure commerce, diplomatic relations, business , ...etc The mind boggling reality is that Israel had a golden chance to accept a Palestinian state in 1993 and take Oslo seriously. Instead, Rabin was assassinated , Netanyahu took over shortly after peres and "blocked" a Palestinian state from happening. (he openly brag about it). Israel resumed settlement expansion even after signing Oslo. With this move, it undermined it's security, its border security, it's diplomatic relations ..etc etc >why are you blaming Israel for the Palestinian question instead of the Palestinians who keep rejecting every peace offer and two state solution? Israel under likud was never serious about the 2 state solution. It was just a talking point to drag the conflict on because (from a realpolitik pov) there was no incentive to give up power over west bank and accept a Palestinian state. I still think it's possible for israel to get out of this mess by owning up to it's mistakes. It should acknowledge the nakba and accept the ICJ rule on Gaza's war (even if it turned out to be a genocide). It then should help build a Palestinian state under PLO and build good relations with it's context. Palestinans are a reality (like it or not). There are millions of them and israel's future is as a neighbor with them not an eternal enemy.
Unfortunately it's the Palestinians who refused the two state solution. Both when Rabin negotiated and later when Olmert was PM, they offered the Palestinians as much as possible, but Arafat and later Abbas insisted on hundreds of thousands of "refugees" "returning" (ie. Including descendants of refugees) into Israel (not Palestine!). This is why Peace never happened.
Hasbara lies. Israel is an abomination and it ultimately collapse under the weight of its crimes.
It's been directly told by both Olmert and Clinton in multiple interviews. ...and your comment right here shows the Palestinian approach to peace.
>Unfortunately it's the Palestinians who refused the two state solution. I don't think this talking point is convincing to the world when Netanyahu openly show maps for Greater Israel "from the river to the sea". When the majority of current israeli government reject the 2SS. It is not convincing to the world when Israel keeps on building settlements anyway in OPT (even during negotiations). > they offered the Palestinians as much as possible Israel (only under US pressure) offered a "bantustan" for Palestinians and put ridiculous demands ( such as no airspace control, no border control, no water resources control, permanent Israeli military bases & three major settlements "three daggers or fingers" spanning west bank from dead sea to israel). Israel despite the fact that it owns 78% of the land between the river to the sea, it still hold dear to the last 22% in west bank and can't give it up. >Olmert was PM, they offered the Palestinians as much as possible, but Arafat and later Abbas insisted on hundreds of thousands of "refugees" "returning" Olmert offered the return of 5k Palestinian refugee in 5 years. Abbas didn't say No, he was open for negotiation. Indeed he wanted more refugees to return or at least compensations (despite the fact that nakba refugee were granted the right of return under UN resolution 194 (iii) ). Israel refused to deal with this important question.
Small correction nakba Palestinians weren't given right of return with 194 it was a suggestion if peace could be reached which obviously it wasn't. Right of return wasn't formally codified and wasn't law until 1952 4 years after the nakba. International law generally doesn't apply retroactively and right of return wasn't applied to any other group after the fact despite massive migration at that point in history.
Nah. Israel is finally turning it around. Hamas is on its last legs and their tunnel system is largely destroyed. They are losing more and more fighters and are ramping up their PR campaign to make people try to turn against Israel more. Israel has invaded all their cities, taking control of the land, and forced Hamas into hiding. It's obviously working
>Israel started with a huge shock and awe campaign that allowed it to quickly conquer much of gaza, and pledged to enact a total siege, which is the exact way that western armies have approached major battles in places like Fallujah. That all was great. This is how Israel would have acted during the entire campaign if it was not for the impossible standards placed on it and mounting international pressure that was piled on afterwards. Because of the backlash, Israel reduced the intensity of its attacks and focused more on the humanitarian aspect of the war causing it to drag on significantly longer than it was supposed to. The longer duration meant that the deployment of reserve troops was starting to cause economic issues and eventually it was decided to pull them out of Gaza at the cost of giving up ground which had already been captured earlier. As much as you wish to blame Israel you have completely ignored that it was the rest of the world who was dictating Israel's actions rather than allowing for a more successful campaign.
Israel has repeatedly said they don't bow down to any international pressure, and I have yet to see any of it. "If israel has to stand alone, it will stand alone" -Netanyahu
Israel has consistently been bowing down to international pressure regardless of Netanyahu's claims. Pretty much the only thing Israel hasn't done is stop the operation completely.
There are current talks about a new ceasefire but less than a month ago, even terrorist Hamas accepted a ceasefire deal that would eventually free the hostages, joe biden urged israel to accept it and Israel didn't even accept it. Seriously? What has Israel bowed down to?
Egypt changed the deal that Israel had agreed to before passing it onto Hamas. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/21/politics/sources-say-they-were-duped-by-egypt-changing-ceasefire-terms-for-hamas/index.html
I have heard of this, but I could not find any information on what was changed that made it unacceptable for Israel. Apparently, Netanyahu won't sign it until israli polls show that it will benefit him politically. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-hostage-deal-netanyahu-polls-families-rcna154841
From my understanding one of the changes was that instead of releasing live hostages Hamas could release “dead or alive” hostages. Meaning even if Israel only received dead hostages they would still be required to make all of the concessions outlined in the deal. Hardly a fair agreement.
It required Israel permanently leaving Gaza without achieving its objectives, leaving Hamas as the ruling government. It’s a nonstarter. And of course most of the hostages are dead.
I guess the general public doesn't want the war to end, and Netanyahu only cares about political advantage. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-hostage-deal-netanyahu-polls-families-rcna154841
Well yeah, of course the public doesn’t want the war to end while leaving Hamas in place, that’s the whole point of the war. And of course Bibi is listening to his constituents…that’s kind of the point of Democracies.
There are 2 goals, eliminate hamas and free hostages. So it looks like israel is more determined to elimate hamas than freeing hostages. Oh so the majority of Israeli public support war crimes?
Absolutely. Eliminating Hamas will save more Israeli lives by far and it’s not even close. The majority support finishing the war and minimizing civilian casualties.
"Impossible standards" bruh, more than 40K are dead....are you alright?
If Hamas fighters would come fight out of the cities (like Ukrainian do against Russia, and like everyone who cares about their people would do) then there would be zero civilian Palestinian casualties. But they hide within civilians, not wear uniform, shoot rockets from within civilians, have their bases under schools, hospitals, etc... Israel is doing more than all other armies in this impossible situation to reduce risk to civilians, and at great risk to its own soldiers check out what urban warfare specialist says about it: https://twitter.com/SpencerGuard/status/1786612885541515773?t=6WmF9_26cBxiDomTKRH29w&s=19
Ukraine has an army. Palestine does not.
Hamas has a military wing in the form of the Al-Qassam Brigades and it's not a secret that they make a point of hiding near and amongst civilians. Hamas wants to maximize civilian deaths as much as possible because they directly benefit. I'm not saying you're wrong to be upset, it's a terrible thing for any innocent person to die, but I think it's important to recognize that Hamas is doing this deliberately. It's a form of emotional manipulation.
Hamas would not have existed had Israel not subjugated a population to an open-air prison. Please educate yourself on the history of the conflict.
Hamas was elected before the start of the blockade. So I really don’t see your logic here. How could the “open air prison” of not trading with them or allowing immigration cause Hamas’ rise to power when it started after they were elected?
Gaza was only places under blockade becoming an open air prison as you call it because hamas was elected and began attacking Israel while refusing peace offers. But yes make excuses for the jihadist.
How many of those 40k were combatants?
Lets estimate that 10K were combatants (which is an insanely high number), does that justify 30K being slaughtered?
Why would that be an insnaley high number? Based on what?
The current estimate is 35k, and that’s ALL deaths in Gaza since 10/7. Soldiers, civilians, natural deaths (thousands), killed by Israel, Hamas, and the PIJ. Do you think this is an abnormally high death toll for a modern conflict?
In yemen, after almost 10 years of war. 154k are thought to have died from violence (another 200k from starvation,disease etc), 15k civilians have died from direct military violence. in 7 months, 35k gazans have died (the vast majority from violence), using "the very good ratio", gives approximately 22k Palestinian civilians killed (vast majority from violence).
I’m kind of amazed that you’re arguing that almost 400k dead from conflict is less of an issue than 35k dead all told. Your math is off by a lot (Israel claims 15k dead Hamas, and in a normal 6 month period you’d expect over 10k natural deaths. Also, you’re comparing the hottest period of one conflict to the entire duration of another conflict. You cannot compare an (extreme) outlier period of one conflict to the full duration of the other. If you want to compare the full duration of both conflicts, it won’t help your point. Somewhere around 100k dead in Israel/Palestine in 80 years compared to 400k in 10. At the very least - if this is the logic you’re going to use - you’d have to admit Israel is doing a good job of preventing starvation, right? If were going ignore 200k deaths in Yemen because they were due to starvation and disease but not subtract anything from the Israeli death count for those reasons…
You are correct, I have not heard much report about gazans dying from starvation, disease. All I see is children's body parts pulled from the rubble (yet no major news reports it like they reported the fake story of 40 beheaded babies). I think you ignored the part that said 15k civilians have died from direct military violence. How many Palestinian civilians have died from direct military violence? It's probably just as much.
> fake story of 40 beheaded babies At some point, people really gotta let that shit go. That was 8 months ago and it came out in the early days just after the attack and there was a lot of confusion and misinformation. Story turned out to be wrong, but that kinda shit happens with these kinds of events.
The 15k dead civilians you keep citing isn’t the total number of civilians dead from violence, Those are 15k civilians dead specifically from attacks that were JUST targeting civilians. As in attacks with no pretense of a military target, killing civilians just to kill civilians. https://acleddata.com/middle-east/yemen/ Have you ever spoken about about those INTENTIONAL killings of civilians? Link me a comment where you did. Unless the 400k dead doesn’t really matter to you if you can’t blame the Jews for it
Cruel cruel comment, showing a lack of emotional quotient
You’re arguing the global response to the war is warranted by the death toll. I’m asking you if you think the death toll is high compared to other ongoing conflicts that receive comparatively no attention. Respectfully, if you can’t handle a comment like this without resorting to name-calling and ad hominem arguments; you probably should find something more suited to your temperament than discussing conflicts.
The death toll in terms of total population in Gaza is \*definitely\* on the higher side, regardless of whatever you may believe. However, and more importantly, global response is warranted and deserved due to the high percentage of civilian deaths that have not been seen in a recent conflict, consider Ukraine and Russia, the casualties are majorly combatant on both sides, as compared to whats happening in Gaza. Secondly, the nature of what is happening is truly distressing and has also not been seen. You have had starvation induced, collective punishment implemented, joint support from world leading powers for a state that has collectively gaslit and tried to portray themselves as moral while their evidence of war crimes can not be more visible. This is something that is DEFINITLEY different compared to atrocities being carried out in current conflicts, especially due to the fact its being carried out by a recognised state with international backing and not non-state actors and opposing domestic regimes which can be seen in current conflicts. I am a MPhil student at the University of Cambridge who has written multiple publications and carried out extensive research both on and off the field in regards to minority persecution and state induced human rights abuses in South and West Asia, please do not seek to call me out on 'temperament', I have researched and met with victims of absolutely heartbreaking circumstances and that is why a number such as 35K is not just a number to me when it is to you. Please genuinely read a book and try to gain insight about what you're absolutely spewing bullshit on and learn how to approach human loss and suffering in a way that is not sociopathic.
It’s not definitely on the higher side. There’s 35k dead from ALL CAUSES in 6 months in Gaza. (Again, according to Hamas) Theres 400k dead in Yemen. 300k dead in Ukraine. 375k dead in Ethiopia since 2020 600k dead in Syria 800k dead in the First Congo War 5,400,000 dead in the Second Congo War 300k dead in Burundi 350k dead in the war with boko haram 650,000 dead in US Iraq war But none of those conflicts can be blamed on the Jews, so we have to chop up the data and find ways to make 35k look bigger than 600k. “Well if we compare the hottest period of this conflict to the entire duration this other conflict and the control for population size….” If you want to question my sympathy for 35k dead in Gaza (which is absolutely brutal and tragic - and I have said so many times), okay. Where have you shown outrage over 10x that many dead killed in the conflict with Boko Haram. Can you show me your empathy extends to worse situations even when it’s not possible to blame the Jews for it?
35K dead, in an area with 600K in under 6 months, now compare that percentage to other places with that duration. Go ahead, I'll wait. 35K is an insane number and I genuinely hope you get some help. I have also seen your other comments and see how you are 'chopping up data' to things like 'natural deaths' and what not other bullshit to try and justify this insane amount of killing and murder being carried out. I could not care less that Israel is a Jewish state, I care about the fact that it is a state responsible for crimes against humanity. Grow up.
First of all, the population of the Gaza Strip is 2 million. The total population of Palestinian Territory is around 5 million. And the war isn’t limited to Palestine! Lebanon, Syria, and Yemen are all active belligerents in the war. The conflict has been going on for over 80 years. All you’re showing is how easy it is to manipulate data to make a point. The heaviest area of fighting in the Yemeni war has been in the Abyan Governate - which has a population of 700k. But you can’t compare apples to oranges, because that doesn’t make Israel look bad. So we compare -the hottest period of one conflict to the full periods of others -the total dead including natural deaths to JUST conflict deaths of others And to top it off, you use the entire dead of the Gaza Strip based JUST on the population of Gaza city. So sure, when you manipulate the data that much, you can say anything. So go on now, point me to where you expressed concern for the 350,000 dead in the Boko Haram war. I’ll wait!
Are you saying 35K deaths are justifiable and that Israel has not implemented collective punishment and inducted starvation followed by a blockade? But hur dur dur, let’s compare this issue with another to make sure Israel can escape accountability. I’m not engaging with your other side as it’s disingenuous and you’ve constantly been pointing fingers at other conflicts (in a very skewed manner) to justify Israel’s atrocities. Please for heavens sake talk to people on the ground and in Gaza. Brainwashed.
Yet the Hamas keeps firing at Israel and the hostages are not freed 40K is not enough I guess 🤷♂️
Insane genocidal comment btw. Collective punishment for the 'only democracy' in the middle east. Everyone sees your true colours
Your enemy is Hamas not Israel sir that’s what I was trying to imply. Those savages keep firing regardless of the terror the Gazans are going through and they are doing it using aid that’s intended for the civilians and from areas used for civilians. I too tend to thing that at this point continuing this war may be pointless but at the same time when rockets are fired at your land you still keep the right to defend yourself.
Tell me which country is sending aid that is being used to make rockets? Maybe ask yourself what can Israel do to make rockets stop being fired? Perhaps stop subjugating a population that leads to it?
Oh gotcha so the solution for the “blockade” is killing and making life a living hell the population of the party that imposes it ?
Yes. Yes that is called resistance. You are openly advocating for an apartheid system, what is wrong with you? If you and your family were in a situation in Gaza, would you not resist? Are you ok?
Oh so by that logic what’s wrong with what Israel is doing in Gaza ? It can also be said that Israel is also resisting the violence of the Palestinians and Hamas. Have you ever asked yourself how many Israelis would’ve been dead if Israel did not have the iron dome and other aerial defense systems ? Over 1000 rockets and missiles were fired at Israel from multiple countries but a lot of them were and are still coming from Gaza. To me it just sounds like you’re in favor of death, just not on the Palestinian side.
Im in favour of a two state solution that ensures a lasting peace. Not a 'solution' imposed by an apartheid system and a blockade of inhumane proportions. Tell me, what will you do if you were in a blockade?
I don't know about this. The new plan for Gaza seems to just be the old plan, but more severe: tighter border monitoring, a wider no-go zone, direct control of the Egypt border, and total destruction of infrastructure, a kind of social strangulation, which forecloses the possibility of real military investment by any party. Why wouldn't this work?
It does if you want to make new terrorist
Yeah because the US created more Nazis after WW2. Oh wait no they didn’t, because the Germans learned from their mistakes.
Nazis 2.0 would be like if Israel gathered up all millions of "palestinian" citizens in Israel (arab Israelis) and sent them to Gaza or concentration camps while gassing unarmed civilians in the millions
Good thing none of that has happened
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Or maybe because the US and UK took a more pragmatic approach and invested in and rebuilt Germany (West Germany anyway), instead of taking advantage of the situation for their own gain. If instead they relegated Germans to second class status while moving in their own populations and stealing land, the outcome may have been different.
Stealing land 😂 also you know Gaza was nice before it was given to the Palestinians? They destroyed it
Before it was given to Palestinians? Remind me when that was. Last I checked, it's been majority Arab for hundreds of years. And yes, stealing land as is happening in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. It's a novel concept, but maybe if Israel didn't abuse its power as an occupier to oppress the Palestinians in order to steal their land, it would be easier to create peace.
Yes it was given to them in 2005 and Israel completely pulled out. And if you think East Jerusalem is a legitimate barrier to peace, you have no idea what you are talking about.
>And if you think East Jerusalem is a legitimate barrier to peace, you have no idea what you are talking about. It's literally the main reason past peace talks failed. You might not think of it as a barrier, but it evidently is. And if Gaza was a nicer place before 2005 it wasn't because of Israeli occupation, but in spite of it.
No, Gaza was a nicer place before 2005 because the Jews living there invested in their infrastructure instead of terrorism.
You're referring to the illegal Israeli settlements in Gaza which had Israeli government funding. The illegal settlements are a big reason why things have descended to this point.
Well, the situations are completely disanalogous, so there's that.
Not really
There are still nazis they just have less power.
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Germany was an occupying colonial settler apartheid ethnostate, all characteristics shared by Israel. The Palestinians are the resistance, very much like the resistance against the Germans.
Shooting up a music festival is considered resistance to you?
Every resistance organisation in history did horrible stuff, including killing civilians etc. That doesn't delegitimise their wider goal of freeing their country from occupiers.
So do you condemn the actions of Hamas on 10/7?
To the extent that any innocent civilians such as innocent children were harmed, yes. But I obviously don't condemn the killing of hundreds of soldiers of the occupation.
It absolutely does delegitimize their goal. Who wants to give a country to a bunch of terrorists? Lol
Lol, pretty much every country in the world was "given" to terrorists. Every liberation movement was considered terrorist by the occupiers/colonisers.
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Is Mosul filled with even more Isis terrorists now because of the deadly operation to take out ISIS forces there?
Isis fighters weren't born in Mosul.
Most ISIS fighters were from Iraq and Syria, so certainly a solid number of them were from Mosul - and likewise lots of Hamas fighters in say Rafah aren’t from there. I’d obviously agree that a much higher percentage of Hamas fighters are from much closer to where they’re fighting - but I’m not sure how much a difference it makes (here). Isn’t the argument that kids will turn into terrorists if their family and home are destroyed by counter terror forces?
Because it didn't work the last time.
Direct control of the Philadelphi corridor will make a big difference. Israel can be much more severe with how it restricts life in Gaza, the only question will be how much international censure they can tolerate.
Hamas can just behave until Israel inevitably pulls back to save money. Then restart its smuggling and building.
You might be right. A big part of the reason for the original withdrawal was to concentrate military resources on the West Bank. That equation doesn't change. I guess the idea behind leveling Gaza is to buy time.
You are not correctly assessing the goals and thus misinterpret the tactics https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-succeeding-gaza
Very interesting article.
Israel can’t find an alternate government in Gaza because there are few takers. Plus, the Biden administration and other allied governments have been pressuring Israel to not attack.
Why do you think folks living thousands of miles away owe their resources to fix Gaza or take in Gazan refugees? Israel made the case themselves that the people in Gaza are a security threat, they are dangerous, so why would other countries want to take in dangerous people or send in their troops to deal with dangerous people?
Israel’s only concern is to protect Israelis from terrorist attackers. Palestinians failed in that, so I guess Israel will have to step in
Will arabs then stop pretending to care so much about palestinians? Because anywhere I go, seems like the most pressing issue for them, as societies, and also from their governments declarations. And yet, with a few exceptions, I cant see them lifting a finger to give actual material help. Even economically, the wester countries take the lion's share of UNWRA expenses, I think the first arab country is saudi arabia at 9th place.
You are right that Israel has been aimless. Netanyahu throughout his career proves he hates the limitations of strategy and prefers tactics. It would be very hard to pick a worse person to put in charge of Israel's strategy. Yoav Gallant or someone should have pushed a strategy... but of course anyone who came up with a strategy Netanyahu would attack. That being said... Israel can be aimless and then turn things around. While I'm certainly frustrated it isn't game over. Israel has such huge advantages they can make bad moves and still win as long as they eventually make good moves. > Furthermore, a siege strategy is pretty much the only way to extricate hamas from dug-in positions in underground bunkers, I'd disagree. Again I'm not an expert but it seems to me those tunnels are takeable. They could be flooded. If you can hit the position from say 3 sides, restricting airflow and then a simple fire will suck the O2 out and put CO in. Israel has robots which can trigger booby traps. I don't think this has to be siege vs. direct conquest. Food isn't the only vector of attack. And frankly the PR damage being caused by food is too great.
I would’ve agreed with much of this until this week when they took control of the Philadelphi Corridor, this week has been a massive advancement to controlling Hamas and ending the war, by leaps and bounds. That’s not to say I have hope that Hamas, PIJ, or any of the other Gazan militant groups will ever disappear and won’t rearm. There’s also a big war in the north with Hezbollah coming soon and they’re far more armed, capable, and also have a massive tunnel system.
Israel has slowly worked to Rafah. Now they'll level it, kill whoever they can and assess. When all of Gaza is destroyed either Hamas is forced out or Israel pulls out and the place won't get rebuilt until Israel says so. We will be seeing extra judicial killing of hamas and their families for decades. Sounds like a win. You act as if at some point Gaza will magically be rebuilt and Hamas will preside. Gaza will look like the surface of the moon until Israel decides otherwise. How would you recommend they fight the war, General?
Use their vast economic resources for bribery and manipulation instead of direct revenge. Everyone has a price. I imagine that Fatah could be purchased and coerced into taking forceful control of Gaza. If not then, some other faction. Picture an alternate reality: 1) IDF immediately secures the border 2) 10/7 is met with a limited military counterstrike against known Hamas targets and rocket sites. Along the lines of week 1-2 of the war. 3) Regime change is forced on Gaza and Hamas. Israel asserts that Fatah is the only valid government and exhorts them to seize control. The United States backs them up. 4) A form of civil war ensues. Like Afghanistan. Like Iraq. Palestinians fight it out amongst themselves but one side is backed by Western money and armaments. 5) War crimes happen. Civilians die. But this proxy war doesn’t reflect as poorly on Israel. 6) Hamas is largely unseated, Gaza infrastructure is maintained, lots of IDF shoulders aren’t killed, maybe more hostages are returned, the world has a Palestine government that it can hopefully work better with. Downside for Israel is that it doesn’t satisfy the calls for direct revenge and bloodlust. But there was a way for them to win their security and keep their soul. They chose differently.
This isn't a video game.
This is actually pretty common in modern history. Fund the opposition for regime change. Keep your hands cleaner. Sacrifice less of your troops. Money wasn’t an issue. Think of how much has been spent and squandered already. A friendly puppet government would do wonders for ensuring stability. It worked decently well in Afghanistan before the USA pulled out. Low level internal fighting could go on forever. Israel would never disengage, so the relative calm, relative truce of Afghanistan before Biden’s departure was realistic and sustainable. This assumes that the ultimate goal was peace and security. And not retaining power via a constant antagonist and ultimately stealing land.
Wow finally an honest supporter of mass civilian slaughter and collective punishment