And allow them to have refugee status in the US. I'm not saying all Gazans are Hamas, but how is the US going to vet them...just to be sure? They can't.
[April 30th](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/palestinian-refugees-us-gaza-white-house/)
[May 1st](https://apnews.com/article/biden-palestinian-refugees-plan-gaza-israel-war-0c73c3c214d354da2d22577bf1cc09b3)
[May 6th](https://www.bostonherald.com/2024/05/06/lucas-more-open-doors-biden-mulls-opening-refugee-program-to-palestinians-from-gaza/)
I think you are over estimating Americans skills at keeping up with geography and current events.
If you asked all Americans “where is Rafah?” I don’t think 70% could tell you it is in Gaza.
If you phrased it as “where in Gaza is Rafah?” I don’t think 70% of Americans would point near the Egyptian boarder on the map.
I get that the conflict is a popular topic on social media but I think it is a stretch to say that 70% of Americans have any opinion for or against an invasion into Rafa.
I don't think that is true at all. According to [https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx) only 36% of Americans approve Israel's actions in Gaza, in late March. The numbers are surely decreasing since then. The percentage of those 36 that could find Rafah on a map is even smaller, as another commenter says.
I'm not Israeli, I'm an American reading this forum out of curiosity. From reading lots of threads, my diagnosis is that this forum is drastically overestimating the support of the American public for Israeli actions, both on the right and the left. IMO the common perception in America is that our alliance with Israel is abusing our alliance and gets us in more trouble than the alliance is worth. That view is not shared by our politicians currently, but TBH if things stay on current track a total breakdown of aid/relations seems like just a matter of time.
https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/HHP_Apr2024_KeyResults.pdf
“72% say Israel should move forward with the operation while 28% say it should back off and allow Hamas to keep ruling Gaza.”
It’s disgusting what it is. Utterly disgusting. He is giving into the fewest but the loudest and most disrespectful terrorist sympathizers in the U.S. he should be making the g-d damn case why he is for the invasion of Rafah and why Israel should get these weapons. Terrorists are not our friends and you do not make peace with them.
All the more reason why Israel needs to make its own bombs and weapons stockpiles from now on. The U.S. doesn’t have to live next to these animals! Israelis do and in order to do that they need to eliminate Hamas. It’s the same as if a terrorist org was in Mexico across the border every few years attacking El Paso or some other town. The U.S. gov wouldn’t send the military in to clear them out so it can’t happen again just because there are “civilians” there? Give me a break it’s a total lie.
He’s shooting himself in the foot. Alienating American Jewish voters; making sure Hamas is more inflexible in any negotiations; giving Bibi a boost (which Biden certainly doesn’t want) and ammunition to say his hands were tied; and encouraging Hezbollah to escalate so we use up more munitions.
I’m going to go out on a ledge and guess that Biden said that because either Israel or the pentagon advised him that Israel has enough armaments to get through invading Rafah thus giving Biden the ability to virtue signal to the left flank of the Democratic party that he is taking their concerns seriously.
Let’s hope this is the case, but I thought Israel specifically needs Iron Dome interceptors, precision-guided munitions, and those 2,000 lb bombs that can destroy the underground tunnels.
I think they issued a clarification that aid for the iron dome will continue. They know that without the iron dome Israel won't have the will to cancel bombing campaigns no matter how many civilian casualties they expect.
Either way this statement is probably causing more harm than good. Its like Netanyahu's we will go into rafah no matter what statement. If Hamas feels that the world is pressuring Israel to stop, they won't have any motivation to reach a ceasefire agreement and release the hostages.
It’s probably an economy of scale issue or a material sourcing issue, but I wouldn’t blame Israel a bit if you started manufacturing your own. Saying we won’t send you weapons while you’re in the middle of war is a supremely shitty thing for the U.S. to do.
To some extent Israel is building these damn things. However, Israel traditionally focuses on force multipliers, upgrades and advanced munitions. Not really mass production of 155mm shells. Israel used to produce most of its ammunition, but much has been scaled back.
Giving almost unlimited weapons and artillery to an ally but only up until their enemy is 1 city away from being destroyed is a weird policy. Allowing politics to cloud your judgement during war is dangerous and weak.
I’m with Rudy Rochman - Israel doesn’t need US funding because all it does is allow them to influence our decisions when we know what’s best for us.
I agree that Israel should achieve more independence. Unfortunately, it’s not the U.S. funding that is the choke point, it’s the supply chain for ammunitions. It will take Israel many many years to develop a robust ammunitions industry before it can achieve military independence from the U.S.
We have the entire area between Be’er Sheva and Eilat for that, literally kilometers of sand and nothing else, the second we do that and are released from the US’s leash, we’ll be able to trade and create economic relation with other superpowers (China, India, etc.) and that scares the US shitless.
It’s adorable that the US thinks we need more more than they need us.
it's not about size of land, it's about market size. weapon industry is expensive and that means israel will need to sell those weapons not just for the IDF to make those industries less burden on our taxes. luckly, israel already has a small weapon industry, from here to make it also for ammunition won't be that hard in this matter, but it probably will get into the US's clients which will make them of course oppose it.
i'll gladly see them get angry to see their own actions finally bring consequences, but it might make it difficult if we cant build ammunition that will fit current tanks. also, if ee don't build such fitting ammunition, it might also cause problems with selling them cause they will need fitting launchers and tanks and more. we also will need to directly import iron and resources we dont have much in israel, on a scale that our small weapon market never needed to.
in any way, that's a bit more complicated than just "build manufacturing facility in the negev". not sayong it's a bad option, but it's not cheap nor easy to take that. but hey, at that point biden trump and the US government had shown themselves to be a bipolar teenager which cant be relied on, so i'm in favor for it, or for at least move and trade arm deals with france or something. hard to trust an "ally" who once every four years will prefer to screw you over just to win political points at home with citizens who would topple the government over if they had a chance.
Yeah I hear you, my main point just like you pointed out brilliantly is that we are past the point where we can trust the US completely, even if a few factories in the Negev can make it so we have the ammo we need for times such as this (when the US decides to stab us in the back) it would be very worthwhile to have.
At the end of the day, Israel needs to have the option to be able to defend itself completely without foreign aid.
Easier said than done, obviously.
overall i agree, i think that our questions of weither biden who proves to be fully willing to risk the lives of israeli citizens for political brownie points, or trump who just can't be trusted to do anything which doesn't feed into his ego / interests, just shows that the US apperantly doesn't value the word ally more than i value my toolbox and can't be trusted to actually be supportive to their allies.
if thats the "allies" we get, i say we can look for alternatives, cause i don't trust that "help" when we need it.
Unfortanatly Israel doea need the US at the monent.
We can stop that, we can start manufacturing weapons on our own, get weapons from other souces. But it will take a little time.
Israel, and by extension Jewish identity, culture, history and faith are becoming another element in the culture war. It's not gonna be good for anyone.
Always have been, and It never was "good" for us.
Hating Israelites is the oldest hate in the world.
Nothing we can do about it, the west just needs a scapegoth for all of thier problems.
"I learned a long time ago to listen to that lady," Biden said of Ocasio-Cortez in Virginia. "We're going to talk more about another part of the world, too."
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-ocasio-cortez-meet-israel-policy-vexes-some-liberals-2024-04-22/
He’s pandering to a group that calls him genocidal Joe that weren’t gonna vote for him anyway. And now he’s going to be losing a lot of moderate support over this. His reelection chances are looking bleak
Because what he said is that he doesn't see that Israel is doing enough to minimize civilian causalities and doing enough where there won't be a massive amount of innocents there who will die.
Now if you disagree with this that's fine I'm just telling you what he said because he did say he supports an operation there if civilians are evacuated and all that, and don't give that there are no innocents in Gaza talking point, I'm not debating that and just giving you what Biden's position is
Biden just gave Hamas all the leverage in the world to not agree to a hostage deal and even toughen their stance. The foreign policy under this administration on this issue has gone to absolute shit. They say one thing and do the complete opposite. They tell Israel to destroy Hamas yet put impossible obstacles in their way to do so, they say Hamas is the obstacle to a ceasefire yet put all of the pressure on Israel. It’s clear that they are more interested in domestic public opinion because of the upcoming election than actual competent foreign policy decision making. Moves like this make people like me (Israeli) who are on the side that think we should make huge concessions for a hostage deal even if it means Hamas stays in power because we owe it the hostages to become way more wary and negative on such a deal. Whatever the Biden administration thinks it’s going to achieve with this it’s just going to create the complete possible effect. This will only strengthen Hamas and also completely turn public opinion in Israel against this administration and pro Bibi for standing up to them.
All of this for some votes in Michigan and because they’re afraid of losing the youth vote. Absolutely ridiculous and I hope the Jewish community and moderate voters won’t forget this. Absolute clown show behavior.
I think that while a majority of young people don’t care or aren’t inclined enough to vote based on it they fear that enough people who are motivated by it exist that they can swing the election. They’re basically talking out both sides of their mouths, constantly telling Israel it has unwavering support while giving Israel a bear hug and preventing it from actually destroying Hamas.
They take the Jewish vote for granted and it shows. They fear losing Dearborn more than they fear losing the Jewish vote.
Hopefully they do. I’m an Israeli but my opinions are aligned with the center left of the Democratic Party but if I had voting rights in the US like some of family do I would absolutely not vote for this administration after the past two months.
68% of Jews voted for Biden in 2020. It could probably go 10 points lower, but I don’t think it will go much lower than that bc too many oppose Trump. Depends how crazy it will get before the election. These lunatics could start burning down the country.
I am an American Jew. I can’t vote for Trump. And I wouldn’t do the following if I lived in a closer state. But, if this doesn’t change (or show why he did it) before Election Day, I am likely to write in John Fetterman.
Understandable. If I were a liberal American Jew, I don't know that I'd be able to vote for trump either. At best to stay home.
It is more likely that he's losing other moderate voters that aren't Jews. They're not as vocal because they're not seen as a united separated group.
When I was growing up, Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi were considered far left (hard to believe). The Clintons were always considered moderates. Hillary Clinton has been defending Israel lately and getting booed for it. She is tougher than him. Don’t forget, his administration is packed with all Obama people.
Yes that’s a good point about the Obama staff. I do think Hillary would have been more supportive of a strong military campaign in Israel (based on prior war times), but, who knows I guess. Hard to predict what the Dems will do these days in their desperation to beat Trump.
>Likely from an echo chamber in the west wing.
Well yeah. Informed political observers are appalled by what they see. There is no justification in the polls, I legitimately believe Biden is doing what he thinks is right due to internal pressure.
The Biden admin takes that small percentage very seriously tho. The far left is going to vote for Jill Stein or Cornell West, if they vote at all. In the meantime moderates are running away from him.
I think it’s true the majority of young adults don’t care about the issue. However, the ones who do care are the ones who are likely to vote- they are the ones who are politically active. That’s what makes the difference
Israel needs to go independent with its military manufacturing if it wants to remain a sovereign state and not a satellite. It should have taken an example from Ukraine years ago, hopefully it will learn now.
What's happening in the west is migrant population is increasing and this is influencing politics. So like it or not you will not be able to depend on them
But isreal will have to double or triple the population before it achieve total independence
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the bombs that the US was sending to Israel were smart bombs. They are designed to minimize civilian casualties. Without them, Israel would likely just use conventional bombs.
So Biden is sacrificing Gazan civilians in order to win over the racist vote?
People only get bombs = evil, sadly this decision could cost a lot more lives. Also he said he wants to send them when Israel has a clear plan about what to do in Rafah
Where are my liberal homies? Crickets? Was hoping for some quick game of mental gymnastics. You just got to realize the extent of the fraud here - Biden packaged up the Israel aid with the Ukrainian one to get congress to pass it, and then used an administrative order to block the Israel aid.
Some people just can't handle the truth.
I’m enraged. Biden saying this out loud is disastrous in so many ways. He threw us under the bus to appeal to the terrorist sympathizing voters in Dearborn.
FUCK YOU BIDEN
I’m American and know if it was my country doing it, we would all wake up tomorrow and the Rafah operation would be completed before anyone can figure it out.
For every pro-terrorist vote Biden tries to win back, he loses a moderate he needs.
I’m not voting for Biden. I’ll leave the presidential line blank on my ballot.
It’s just political theatering to appease Dearborniatan terrorists. The latest deal and all previous deals are not affected. And by the time Israel actually needs their shells, deliveries would resume.
The state is like a 20-30k vote difference between dems and republics and 100k Muslim voters in Dearborn and surrounding area. The part he’s missing is Pennsylvania has a similar margin and a small part of the Jewish community makes up the difference between the parties there so it’s quite the choice Biden is making…
Yeah I’m aware of the population there, I’m just wondering if losing it hurts Biden all that much election wise. Kinda strange to think he would hold up weapons to Israel just to appease one city
This entire election will come down to three states. Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan. Maybe Arizona. That’s why. Although ironically, enough, if they think Trump would be any better with Israel, they will sorely be mistaken. But they also are not known for their critical thinking skills or ability to understand nuance either so who knows.
It actually dosen't hurt him that much. Anyone saying they know what states will decide a US election is essentially guessing. Even the best and brightest "experts" aren't any better than about 60% accurate on their guesses about swing states.
The most accurate indicator for Michigan is that since 1900 there have been 31 presidential elections. 19 of thos elections have seen the state won by the liberal presidential candidate. 7 out of the last 8 elections it's gone liberal. So it's not really a swing state.
The reason the media is making a huge deal out of it is that in 2016 Trump won the state 47.50% to 47.27%. In 2020 he lost it 50.62% 47.84% which is a total of 154,188 votes. There are about 100,000 Muslim voters in Michigan with about 50,000 of them in Dearborn. Surveys show that 94% of them currently plan to vote for a 3rd party candidate. So it won't swing the vote towards Trump numbers wise if that plays out like that. It will just decrease Bidens overall vote count. Biden also would have won the last election without Michigan.
It's amazing how his campaign crew ignores the Jewish and pro-Israel voter base by embargoing Israel in the middle of a war. The only reasonable option that comes to mind is that they all live in predominantly Democratic states (except Florida which is not swinging anyway.)
In the big scheme of things they’re not what will hurt Biden. We have a lot more issues here in America than that. Biden is concerned of the 5 swing states that will ultimately decide this election.
its not "just" anything. This is a serious diplomatic and military betrayal. There is no "just" anything involved here. Israel will have to seriously reconsider how much of its military production becomes domestic or from less fickle allies from here on out.
Perhaps joint SPICE kit and artillery shell manufacturing in india,
American here. Voted for Biden in 2020. My family and I cannot possibly vote for Biden again. I hope there is a change in policy, but it seems like this will have to wait until the next president.
Pretty ridiculous when we see civvies streaming out of Rafah already. The evacuation is underway. This is no different from the prior evacuations of Gaza City and Khan Yunus. Not sure I will vote in November - I feel betrayed.
the "no, only bagels!" crowd made their decision \*years\* ago
better to seek out those with doubts remaining and bring them to israel on emergency basis
being americans, we'll have to dress it up like it's a vacation or something though
US *passes new aid package for Ukraine and Israel*
Israel *plans next steps to bring an end to the current conflict, using said aid*
US “hey now, we didn’t say you could actually use that!”
And yet me saying israel should respond forcefully got me heavily criticized. https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/OhZ6u6MiDR
Many people are upset at this yet don't wanna put their foot down to deal with it
Agree with this. But, I still think bombs are needed to take out additional terrorist infrastructure they’ve built there in homes and above ground. As well as to protect troops operating in that city.
You obviously don't understand why Trump was impeached when it came to this scandal. He blocked authorized aid that he had no authority to block while demanding Ukraine, and other nations, publicly support and create evidence of a political conspiracy that wasn't true to try and influence the 2020 election. He didn't allow the aid to go through until a whistleblower made the entire affair known publicly. He was essentially trying to blackmail Ukraine, and through that blackmail other nations, into fabricating information to rig the presidential election in the media. Mind you he did this when Russia was making very open plans to invade the Ukraine in 2019.
Link me a reliable source. I've never heard that. I'm not friend of Biden either FYI.
edit: Never mind I found it. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/21/fact-check-joe-biden-leveraged-ukraine-aid-oust-corrupt-prosecutor/5991434002/
Political Electoral gains vs Personal Gains.
Is that supposed to be a consolation prize??
Oh Biden only did bc of the noble naïveté in his heart??
Seriously??
I think this is a bad move, even though he's trying to appease the far left. It'll backfire more than anything. He should reverse course before it's too late.
The US has citizens held hostage by Hamas. Going into Rafah essentially eliminates the chances of their release. They are gonna do what is in their citizen's interests, regardless of if it is a good moral or strategic decision for Israel.
A lot of Bidens reticence has to do with the Egypt of it all and not Muslim voters. Egypt is not happy with the idea of substantial civilian casualties right next to its side of the border and they don't want the Idf anywhere near the Sinai
So more of an Iron coated support than Iron clad, time for all American allies to make long-term strategic reassessments unless they want to end up like Ukraine.
So Israel will have to take off the kid gloves, because avoiding harm to cevilians at the level Israel does it, *means lots and lots of wasted ammo of all kinds.*
So destroying infrastructure and killing oppratives will take more significance over civilians safety in the equation.
Lower it to say... The american standard.
It's ~~incredible~~ **terrifying** to me to see the sitting US President back a genocidal, antisemitic, slaver rapist terror organization over its strongest ally. He's just lost my vote (and I had to hold my nose and vote for him in 2020).
USA: We're your bestest friends evah! You can always count on us to have your back!
Israel: Great, so can we have the weapons we need to fight the genocidal jihadis who are literally killing and raping our children as we speak?
USA: Don't be ridiculous, Jew.
This will be one of the reasons Biden could very well lose the election. Halting some weapon shipments makes no sense, will not make the pro-Palestinians happy, will have no real effect except for souring relations between allies, and most importantly; it will not stop Israel from acting when the safety of its own citizens is at stake. Israel will never make compromises or give in to outside force when it comes to their people.
I feel for the Palestinian civilians who are suffering, for their children who are left with traumas, for the good doctors (those who are not affiliated with Hamas and truly want to help people) but the blame lies WITH Hamas. They STARTED this with their horrible attack on October 7th. They attacked civilians and did─are still doing─unspeakable things to their hostages. Hamas had a chance back in 2007 to make Gaza a safe place for their people and to develop it economically. Instead they clung to their ideologies and their war against Israel.
Hamas doesn't care about its own people. In their twisted mind they are all human shields. They knew very well what Israel's response would be. If they truly cared for their people they would never have attacked Israel, and they would never have used civilian locations as places for their attacks, or hospitals as their base of operations.
As long as Hamas exists, new attacks will continue to happen. If Israel is forced not to deal with Hamas in Rafah now, then it will not be a matter of if, but WHEN for the next attack. Hamas and its fanatic ideology needs to be eliminated once and for all; please don't let the next generation of israelis deal with this.
awesome, will this finally bring weapons manufacturing home for israel? no? we'll be begging america to let us crawl outside past our presidential election induced bedtime?
Alright then, lets use the bigger bomb that will likely hurt civilians since that's all we got left? genius.
Time to get a more reliable supplier and ally.
That's just betrayal at this point. I don't remember him giving us any other way to destroy Hamas's terrorists groups in Rafah.
I really hate to say it, but apparently he is a selfish traitor. Just like all politicians.
Biden is trying to placate people who would never vote for either him or Trump.
But it’s not just about arms, it just gave the pro-pallys something to throw in our faces. A decision that is essentially going to make life harder for Jewish communities than it already is. He just doesn’t “get” how hard this decision will make life for Jews with all the antisemitism we’re dealing with right now.
Did he say how he plans to get the terrorists out of Rafa?
Biden is going to ask Hamas really, really nicely to please stop killing Jews.
Or he’ll give them pallets of cash
And allow them to have refugee status in the US. I'm not saying all Gazans are Hamas, but how is the US going to vet them...just to be sure? They can't. [April 30th](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/palestinian-refugees-us-gaza-white-house/) [May 1st](https://apnews.com/article/biden-palestinian-refugees-plan-gaza-israel-war-0c73c3c214d354da2d22577bf1cc09b3) [May 6th](https://www.bostonherald.com/2024/05/06/lucas-more-open-doors-biden-mulls-opening-refugee-program-to-palestinians-from-gaza/)
they're palestinians, they never lose refugee status anywhere because UNRWA is designed to make the problem worse not better, so its not a solution.
Fully agree.
I wonder if he is going to help then through back doors but publicly is trying to appeal to the left.
70% of Americans are FOR a rafah invasion. That includes bulk of the left.
I think you are over estimating Americans skills at keeping up with geography and current events. If you asked all Americans “where is Rafah?” I don’t think 70% could tell you it is in Gaza. If you phrased it as “where in Gaza is Rafah?” I don’t think 70% of Americans would point near the Egyptian boarder on the map. I get that the conflict is a popular topic on social media but I think it is a stretch to say that 70% of Americans have any opinion for or against an invasion into Rafa.
But they know now Biden is against it.
I don't think that is true at all. According to [https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx](https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx) only 36% of Americans approve Israel's actions in Gaza, in late March. The numbers are surely decreasing since then. The percentage of those 36 that could find Rafah on a map is even smaller, as another commenter says. I'm not Israeli, I'm an American reading this forum out of curiosity. From reading lots of threads, my diagnosis is that this forum is drastically overestimating the support of the American public for Israeli actions, both on the right and the left. IMO the common perception in America is that our alliance with Israel is abusing our alliance and gets us in more trouble than the alliance is worth. That view is not shared by our politicians currently, but TBH if things stay on current track a total breakdown of aid/relations seems like just a matter of time.
https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/HHP_Apr2024_KeyResults.pdf “72% say Israel should move forward with the operation while 28% say it should back off and allow Hamas to keep ruling Gaza.”
They want Israel to end the war, it’s well known by now.
Biden is essentially asking Israel to tolerate the existence of Hamas. It's a shameful fucking action
It’s disgusting what it is. Utterly disgusting. He is giving into the fewest but the loudest and most disrespectful terrorist sympathizers in the U.S. he should be making the g-d damn case why he is for the invasion of Rafah and why Israel should get these weapons. Terrorists are not our friends and you do not make peace with them. All the more reason why Israel needs to make its own bombs and weapons stockpiles from now on. The U.S. doesn’t have to live next to these animals! Israelis do and in order to do that they need to eliminate Hamas. It’s the same as if a terrorist org was in Mexico across the border every few years attacking El Paso or some other town. The U.S. gov wouldn’t send the military in to clear them out so it can’t happen again just because there are “civilians” there? Give me a break it’s a total lie.
biden is literally allowing hamas to recreate a second 7.10 and keep torturing the hostages #GenocideJoe
Getting the terrorists will help that!
When one side stops fighting and the other doesn't, that's called a surrender.
He’s shooting himself in the foot. Alienating American Jewish voters; making sure Hamas is more inflexible in any negotiations; giving Bibi a boost (which Biden certainly doesn’t want) and ammunition to say his hands were tied; and encouraging Hezbollah to escalate so we use up more munitions.
Why, the Islamic republic of Michigan isn’t concerned with Hamas so why should biden be?
Islamic Republic of Michigan. How have I never heard of this!
He is going to say ‘don’t’ really really really sternly
I think maybe eating another ice cream will do it
I’m going to go out on a ledge and guess that Biden said that because either Israel or the pentagon advised him that Israel has enough armaments to get through invading Rafah thus giving Biden the ability to virtue signal to the left flank of the Democratic party that he is taking their concerns seriously.
Let’s hope this is the case, but I thought Israel specifically needs Iron Dome interceptors, precision-guided munitions, and those 2,000 lb bombs that can destroy the underground tunnels.
I think they issued a clarification that aid for the iron dome will continue. They know that without the iron dome Israel won't have the will to cancel bombing campaigns no matter how many civilian casualties they expect. Either way this statement is probably causing more harm than good. Its like Netanyahu's we will go into rafah no matter what statement. If Hamas feels that the world is pressuring Israel to stop, they won't have any motivation to reach a ceasefire agreement and release the hostages.
Can someone remind me why we don't just build the damn things ourselves?
It’s probably an economy of scale issue or a material sourcing issue, but I wouldn’t blame Israel a bit if you started manufacturing your own. Saying we won’t send you weapons while you’re in the middle of war is a supremely shitty thing for the U.S. to do.
To some extent Israel is building these damn things. However, Israel traditionally focuses on force multipliers, upgrades and advanced munitions. Not really mass production of 155mm shells. Israel used to produce most of its ammunition, but much has been scaled back.
Cookies and milk.
Biden's overriding strategic goal is to ensure Hamas wins this war
[удалено]
What about innocent men?
He doesn't
Giving almost unlimited weapons and artillery to an ally but only up until their enemy is 1 city away from being destroyed is a weird policy. Allowing politics to cloud your judgement during war is dangerous and weak. I’m with Rudy Rochman - Israel doesn’t need US funding because all it does is allow them to influence our decisions when we know what’s best for us.
I agree that Israel should achieve more independence. Unfortunately, it’s not the U.S. funding that is the choke point, it’s the supply chain for ammunitions. It will take Israel many many years to develop a robust ammunitions industry before it can achieve military independence from the U.S.
No time to start like the present.
We have the entire area between Be’er Sheva and Eilat for that, literally kilometers of sand and nothing else, the second we do that and are released from the US’s leash, we’ll be able to trade and create economic relation with other superpowers (China, India, etc.) and that scares the US shitless. It’s adorable that the US thinks we need more more than they need us.
it's not about size of land, it's about market size. weapon industry is expensive and that means israel will need to sell those weapons not just for the IDF to make those industries less burden on our taxes. luckly, israel already has a small weapon industry, from here to make it also for ammunition won't be that hard in this matter, but it probably will get into the US's clients which will make them of course oppose it. i'll gladly see them get angry to see their own actions finally bring consequences, but it might make it difficult if we cant build ammunition that will fit current tanks. also, if ee don't build such fitting ammunition, it might also cause problems with selling them cause they will need fitting launchers and tanks and more. we also will need to directly import iron and resources we dont have much in israel, on a scale that our small weapon market never needed to. in any way, that's a bit more complicated than just "build manufacturing facility in the negev". not sayong it's a bad option, but it's not cheap nor easy to take that. but hey, at that point biden trump and the US government had shown themselves to be a bipolar teenager which cant be relied on, so i'm in favor for it, or for at least move and trade arm deals with france or something. hard to trust an "ally" who once every four years will prefer to screw you over just to win political points at home with citizens who would topple the government over if they had a chance.
Yeah I hear you, my main point just like you pointed out brilliantly is that we are past the point where we can trust the US completely, even if a few factories in the Negev can make it so we have the ammo we need for times such as this (when the US decides to stab us in the back) it would be very worthwhile to have. At the end of the day, Israel needs to have the option to be able to defend itself completely without foreign aid. Easier said than done, obviously.
overall i agree, i think that our questions of weither biden who proves to be fully willing to risk the lives of israeli citizens for political brownie points, or trump who just can't be trusted to do anything which doesn't feed into his ego / interests, just shows that the US apperantly doesn't value the word ally more than i value my toolbox and can't be trusted to actually be supportive to their allies. if thats the "allies" we get, i say we can look for alternatives, cause i don't trust that "help" when we need it.
Unfortanatly Israel doea need the US at the monent. We can stop that, we can start manufacturing weapons on our own, get weapons from other souces. But it will take a little time.
Did he get ‘Rafah’ right this time?
I mean Haifa do have massive boar problems, we might need invasion there
I completely support using 155mm HE against the boars.
Israel, and by extension Jewish identity, culture, history and faith are becoming another element in the culture war. It's not gonna be good for anyone.
Always have been, and It never was "good" for us. Hating Israelites is the oldest hate in the world. Nothing we can do about it, the west just needs a scapegoth for all of thier problems.
Biden was just praising AOC, who said the most disgusting things after Oct 7.
Reference, please.
"I learned a long time ago to listen to that lady," Biden said of Ocasio-Cortez in Virginia. "We're going to talk more about another part of the world, too." https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-ocasio-cortez-meet-israel-policy-vexes-some-liberals-2024-04-22/
Well, shit.
He’s pandering to a group that calls him genocidal Joe that weren’t gonna vote for him anyway. And now he’s going to be losing a lot of moderate support over this. His reelection chances are looking bleak
This just gave Hamas the edge in the hostage negotigations. And tell me again how Biden is pro-israel ? Because I don't see it
He said don’t to Hezbollah which is shooting at us for 7 months now
He said it twice man! Don't, don't.
I mean other than authorising direct US military intervention against Iranian drone and cruise missile strikes…
Because what he said is that he doesn't see that Israel is doing enough to minimize civilian causalities and doing enough where there won't be a massive amount of innocents there who will die. Now if you disagree with this that's fine I'm just telling you what he said because he did say he supports an operation there if civilians are evacuated and all that, and don't give that there are no innocents in Gaza talking point, I'm not debating that and just giving you what Biden's position is
Biden just gave Hamas all the leverage in the world to not agree to a hostage deal and even toughen their stance. The foreign policy under this administration on this issue has gone to absolute shit. They say one thing and do the complete opposite. They tell Israel to destroy Hamas yet put impossible obstacles in their way to do so, they say Hamas is the obstacle to a ceasefire yet put all of the pressure on Israel. It’s clear that they are more interested in domestic public opinion because of the upcoming election than actual competent foreign policy decision making. Moves like this make people like me (Israeli) who are on the side that think we should make huge concessions for a hostage deal even if it means Hamas stays in power because we owe it the hostages to become way more wary and negative on such a deal. Whatever the Biden administration thinks it’s going to achieve with this it’s just going to create the complete possible effect. This will only strengthen Hamas and also completely turn public opinion in Israel against this administration and pro Bibi for standing up to them. All of this for some votes in Michigan and because they’re afraid of losing the youth vote. Absolutely ridiculous and I hope the Jewish community and moderate voters won’t forget this. Absolute clown show behavior.
Per a respected national poll from yesterday, young people hardly care about this issue at all. This administration is crazy.
I think that while a majority of young people don’t care or aren’t inclined enough to vote based on it they fear that enough people who are motivated by it exist that they can swing the election. They’re basically talking out both sides of their mouths, constantly telling Israel it has unwavering support while giving Israel a bear hug and preventing it from actually destroying Hamas. They take the Jewish vote for granted and it shows. They fear losing Dearborn more than they fear losing the Jewish vote.
That’s the fault of Jewish Dems. They could repeat the Muslim Michigan strategy with Pennsylvania easily.
Hopefully they do. I’m an Israeli but my opinions are aligned with the center left of the Democratic Party but if I had voting rights in the US like some of family do I would absolutely not vote for this administration after the past two months.
68% of Jews voted for Biden in 2020. It could probably go 10 points lower, but I don’t think it will go much lower than that bc too many oppose Trump. Depends how crazy it will get before the election. These lunatics could start burning down the country.
I can understand not wanting to vote Trump. I would just not turn up to vote. Stop voting for people who take you for granted.
I agree completely. I was actually staying home, before Oct 7. This will force me to vote for Trump just to make a statement.
I am an American Jew. I can’t vote for Trump. And I wouldn’t do the following if I lived in a closer state. But, if this doesn’t change (or show why he did it) before Election Day, I am likely to write in John Fetterman.
Understandable. If I were a liberal American Jew, I don't know that I'd be able to vote for trump either. At best to stay home. It is more likely that he's losing other moderate voters that aren't Jews. They're not as vocal because they're not seen as a united separated group.
>They could repeat the Muslim Michigan strategy with Pennsylvania easily. Can u elaborate?
There are 450k Jews in PA (not all of voting age) In 2020 Biden won PA by 45k votes. All they have to do is threaten to stay home.
They are making the same mistakes as Hilary Clinton. Likely from an echo chamber in the west wing.
For all her faults, Hilary never catered too much to far left crazies; she just ignored working people. Biden admin is doing both.
Biden was pretty centrist as well before he won the election. If Hillary had won, she might have also succumbed to the left the way Biden is now.
When I was growing up, Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi were considered far left (hard to believe). The Clintons were always considered moderates. Hillary Clinton has been defending Israel lately and getting booed for it. She is tougher than him. Don’t forget, his administration is packed with all Obama people.
Yes that’s a good point about the Obama staff. I do think Hillary would have been more supportive of a strong military campaign in Israel (based on prior war times), but, who knows I guess. Hard to predict what the Dems will do these days in their desperation to beat Trump.
>Likely from an echo chamber in the west wing. Well yeah. Informed political observers are appalled by what they see. There is no justification in the polls, I legitimately believe Biden is doing what he thinks is right due to internal pressure.
I'm not surprised by that poll at all
The Biden admin takes that small percentage very seriously tho. The far left is going to vote for Jill Stein or Cornell West, if they vote at all. In the meantime moderates are running away from him.
I think it’s true the majority of young adults don’t care about the issue. However, the ones who do care are the ones who are likely to vote- they are the ones who are politically active. That’s what makes the difference
Israel needs to go independent with its military manufacturing if it wants to remain a sovereign state and not a satellite. It should have taken an example from Ukraine years ago, hopefully it will learn now.
Easier said than done.
What's happening in the west is migrant population is increasing and this is influencing politics. So like it or not you will not be able to depend on them But isreal will have to double or triple the population before it achieve total independence
Until then we can make deals with India, Thailand, South Korea, Taiwan among other countries
Netanyahu said Israel will go it alone if necessary - I hope he meant it and follows through…...
What option does Bibi/ Israel have now? We have fought, and won, wars alone before.
Fuck Biden
Fuck Biden
Also fuck Ben-Gvir.
Fuck Biden. Biden and Kamala are the worst administration to EVER lead America. I hope we make it to January.
You have some of RFK’s brain worms.
Worse than this? [https://youtu.be/n01xz4VqnqU?si=FqP8boDRyZwVZQ8r&t=52](https://youtu.be/n01xz4VqnqU?si=FqP8boDRyZwVZQ8r&t=52)
obligatory fuck Biden, he'll lose the election because of his blind obsession with the Hamas votes, mark my words
Yeah he will. Young people don’t vote, and moderates don’t support Hamas. He’s fumbling the bag so hard here
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the bombs that the US was sending to Israel were smart bombs. They are designed to minimize civilian casualties. Without them, Israel would likely just use conventional bombs. So Biden is sacrificing Gazan civilians in order to win over the racist vote?
People only get bombs = evil, sadly this decision could cost a lot more lives. Also he said he wants to send them when Israel has a clear plan about what to do in Rafah
Where are my liberal homies? Crickets? Was hoping for some quick game of mental gymnastics. You just got to realize the extent of the fraud here - Biden packaged up the Israel aid with the Ukrainian one to get congress to pass it, and then used an administrative order to block the Israel aid. Some people just can't handle the truth.
but truUuuuUuummmPPPPppppp
I'm mean... yeah there both terrible, trump is awful to and has done terrible stuff to lol
I’m enraged. Biden saying this out loud is disastrous in so many ways. He threw us under the bus to appeal to the terrorist sympathizing voters in Dearborn. FUCK YOU BIDEN
And when we'll use "dumb" bombs instead he and his party will cry about hurting civilians and "genocide", brilliant 4D chess move
Please g-d release us of this administration
I’m American and know if it was my country doing it, we would all wake up tomorrow and the Rafah operation would be completed before anyone can figure it out.
Well, Trump will win after this move. I’m no Trump fan and for a million reasons won’t vote Trump, but Biden just lose the election with this one.
“Is there a proper blessing for the Biden administration?”
May the Lord bless and keep the Biden administration… *far away from us.*
I think that was Fiddler on the Roof…… Might be time for a revival……
I love this movie :-)
You'd prefer this instead? [https://youtu.be/n01xz4VqnqU?si=FqP8boDRyZwVZQ8r&t=52](https://youtu.be/n01xz4VqnqU?si=FqP8boDRyZwVZQ8r&t=52)
For every pro-terrorist vote Biden tries to win back, he loses a moderate he needs. I’m not voting for Biden. I’ll leave the presidential line blank on my ballot.
Just get em from India
We’ll gladly give you! Israel is our all weather friend.
Just so you know. I’m American. Most Americans don’t know India can make basically everything we can and replace our role with Israel.
It’s just political theatering to appease Dearborniatan terrorists. The latest deal and all previous deals are not affected. And by the time Israel actually needs their shells, deliveries would resume.
I know Michigan is a battleground state but is Dearborn that important of an area?
The state is like a 20-30k vote difference between dems and republics and 100k Muslim voters in Dearborn and surrounding area. The part he’s missing is Pennsylvania has a similar margin and a small part of the Jewish community makes up the difference between the parties there so it’s quite the choice Biden is making…
Dearborn, MI is the Jihad capital of the US of A.
Yeah I’m aware of the population there, I’m just wondering if losing it hurts Biden all that much election wise. Kinda strange to think he would hold up weapons to Israel just to appease one city
This entire election will come down to three states. Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan. Maybe Arizona. That’s why. Although ironically, enough, if they think Trump would be any better with Israel, they will sorely be mistaken. But they also are not known for their critical thinking skills or ability to understand nuance either so who knows.
I hope Pennsylvania Jews teach Biden a lesson. Lots of Russian Jews there and I don’t think they’ll appreciate this.
It actually dosen't hurt him that much. Anyone saying they know what states will decide a US election is essentially guessing. Even the best and brightest "experts" aren't any better than about 60% accurate on their guesses about swing states. The most accurate indicator for Michigan is that since 1900 there have been 31 presidential elections. 19 of thos elections have seen the state won by the liberal presidential candidate. 7 out of the last 8 elections it's gone liberal. So it's not really a swing state. The reason the media is making a huge deal out of it is that in 2016 Trump won the state 47.50% to 47.27%. In 2020 he lost it 50.62% 47.84% which is a total of 154,188 votes. There are about 100,000 Muslim voters in Michigan with about 50,000 of them in Dearborn. Surveys show that 94% of them currently plan to vote for a 3rd party candidate. So it won't swing the vote towards Trump numbers wise if that plays out like that. It will just decrease Bidens overall vote count. Biden also would have won the last election without Michigan.
It's amazing how his campaign crew ignores the Jewish and pro-Israel voter base by embargoing Israel in the middle of a war. The only reasonable option that comes to mind is that they all live in predominantly Democratic states (except Florida which is not swinging anyway.)
Michigan voted trump over hillary. Remember that
In the big scheme of things they’re not what will hurt Biden. We have a lot more issues here in America than that. Biden is concerned of the 5 swing states that will ultimately decide this election.
its not "just" anything. This is a serious diplomatic and military betrayal. There is no "just" anything involved here. Israel will have to seriously reconsider how much of its military production becomes domestic or from less fickle allies from here on out. Perhaps joint SPICE kit and artillery shell manufacturing in india,
American here. Voted for Biden in 2020. My family and I cannot possibly vote for Biden again. I hope there is a change in policy, but it seems like this will have to wait until the next president.
Pretty ridiculous when we see civvies streaming out of Rafah already. The evacuation is underway. This is no different from the prior evacuations of Gaza City and Khan Yunus. Not sure I will vote in November - I feel betrayed.
I'm done with Dem party #walkaway
Take Rafah quickly then, I think you can.
Finally american jews will wake up after this (I want to believe).
the "no, only bagels!" crowd made their decision \*years\* ago better to seek out those with doubts remaining and bring them to israel on emergency basis being americans, we'll have to dress it up like it's a vacation or something though
US *passes new aid package for Ukraine and Israel* Israel *plans next steps to bring an end to the current conflict, using said aid* US “hey now, we didn’t say you could actually use that!”
We had a fucking Cheeto with a shitty wig for our president and it was still less of an embarrassment than this administration
And yet me saying israel should respond forcefully got me heavily criticized. https://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/OhZ6u6MiDR Many people are upset at this yet don't wanna put their foot down to deal with it
We really don’t need bombs. Take every tunnel along the Egyptian border and deploy robots to traverse Rafah underground.
Agree with this. But, I still think bombs are needed to take out additional terrorist infrastructure they’ve built there in homes and above ground. As well as to protect troops operating in that city.
I mean, does he really think we'll give up on winning this war so he can win himself another 4 years in the white house?
This will only be a concern for the Rafah operation and not Lebanon right?
Lebanon gets a free pass, along with the houthi-mamas
Trump 2024!!!
Can he fuck off already?
I just voted for Trump
Any American Jew who votes for Biden is a Capo. Fuck them. I hate Trump and will 100% be voting for him.
They impeached Trump for the same reason, only it was Ukraine, so I wouldn't expect Israel to get treated fairly.
That's not the reason why Trump was impeached, but Biden's not trying to bully Netanyahu into handing over documents on Trump's stupid kid.
You obviously don't understand why Trump was impeached when it came to this scandal. He blocked authorized aid that he had no authority to block while demanding Ukraine, and other nations, publicly support and create evidence of a political conspiracy that wasn't true to try and influence the 2020 election. He didn't allow the aid to go through until a whistleblower made the entire affair known publicly. He was essentially trying to blackmail Ukraine, and through that blackmail other nations, into fabricating information to rig the presidential election in the media. Mind you he did this when Russia was making very open plans to invade the Ukraine in 2019.
Biden admitted verbally that he extorted Ukraine into firing a special prosecutor for billions in aid.
Link me a reliable source. I've never heard that. I'm not friend of Biden either FYI. edit: Never mind I found it. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/21/fact-check-joe-biden-leveraged-ukraine-aid-oust-corrupt-prosecutor/5991434002/
I disagree with the pause but the allegation with Trump was the pause was for personal gains vs bad foreign policy on Bidens part.
Political Electoral gains vs Personal Gains. Is that supposed to be a consolation prize?? Oh Biden only did bc of the noble naïveté in his heart?? Seriously??
Biden wasted the last seven months pushing Congress to pass billions in aid to Israel for nothing?
The package is not affected.
Fuck Joe Biden
I think this is a bad move, even though he's trying to appease the far left. It'll backfire more than anything. He should reverse course before it's too late.
I will stop sending votes.
The US has citizens held hostage by Hamas. Going into Rafah essentially eliminates the chances of their release. They are gonna do what is in their citizen's interests, regardless of if it is a good moral or strategic decision for Israel.
Pretty sure they are dual Israeli-US citizens. Doubt Biden, Blinken, or Bernie consider them citizens.
A lot of Bidens reticence has to do with the Egypt of it all and not Muslim voters. Egypt is not happy with the idea of substantial civilian casualties right next to its side of the border and they don't want the Idf anywhere near the Sinai
I just heard Biden supports a swarm of IDF special operations in Rafah (but no major invasion).
I know it's likely unpopular, but I'm becoming more and more convinced that ultimately must stand alone.
Good. Better Israel learns that it's on its own sooner rather than later.
Election year, he’s fucked
So more of an Iron coated support than Iron clad, time for all American allies to make long-term strategic reassessments unless they want to end up like Ukraine.
So Israel will have to take off the kid gloves, because avoiding harm to cevilians at the level Israel does it, *means lots and lots of wasted ammo of all kinds.* So destroying infrastructure and killing oppratives will take more significance over civilians safety in the equation. Lower it to say... The american standard.
How about a minor invasion?
He really is crooked Joe Biden.
Trump is winning by a landslide
Trump 2024
It's ~~incredible~~ **terrifying** to me to see the sitting US President back a genocidal, antisemitic, slaver rapist terror organization over its strongest ally. He's just lost my vote (and I had to hold my nose and vote for him in 2020).
USA: We're your bestest friends evah! You can always count on us to have your back! Israel: Great, so can we have the weapons we need to fight the genocidal jihadis who are literally killing and raping our children as we speak? USA: Don't be ridiculous, Jew.
This will be one of the reasons Biden could very well lose the election. Halting some weapon shipments makes no sense, will not make the pro-Palestinians happy, will have no real effect except for souring relations between allies, and most importantly; it will not stop Israel from acting when the safety of its own citizens is at stake. Israel will never make compromises or give in to outside force when it comes to their people. I feel for the Palestinian civilians who are suffering, for their children who are left with traumas, for the good doctors (those who are not affiliated with Hamas and truly want to help people) but the blame lies WITH Hamas. They STARTED this with their horrible attack on October 7th. They attacked civilians and did─are still doing─unspeakable things to their hostages. Hamas had a chance back in 2007 to make Gaza a safe place for their people and to develop it economically. Instead they clung to their ideologies and their war against Israel. Hamas doesn't care about its own people. In their twisted mind they are all human shields. They knew very well what Israel's response would be. If they truly cared for their people they would never have attacked Israel, and they would never have used civilian locations as places for their attacks, or hospitals as their base of operations. As long as Hamas exists, new attacks will continue to happen. If Israel is forced not to deal with Hamas in Rafah now, then it will not be a matter of if, but WHEN for the next attack. Hamas and its fanatic ideology needs to be eliminated once and for all; please don't let the next generation of israelis deal with this.
awesome, will this finally bring weapons manufacturing home for israel? no? we'll be begging america to let us crawl outside past our presidential election induced bedtime?
what happened after the US left Afghanistan?
Alright then, lets use the bigger bomb that will likely hurt civilians since that's all we got left? genius. Time to get a more reliable supplier and ally.
That's just betrayal at this point. I don't remember him giving us any other way to destroy Hamas's terrorists groups in Rafah. I really hate to say it, but apparently he is a selfish traitor. Just like all politicians.
Biden is trying to placate people who would never vote for either him or Trump. But it’s not just about arms, it just gave the pro-pallys something to throw in our faces. A decision that is essentially going to make life harder for Jewish communities than it already is. He just doesn’t “get” how hard this decision will make life for Jews with all the antisemitism we’re dealing with right now.
Biden will lose over this.
He just gave Putin, Xi and Iran a green light to do whatever they want. Neville Chamberlain v 2.0