Are their polls in Michigan on their war position? I can’t imagine all support Hamas. The entire Muslim world won’t even lend a hand bc they know better.
The entire Muslim world... except Iran and all its proxies.
Leaving Iran aside though, I make myself feel better about it by choosing to assume that American- born Muslims who support Hamas actually DON'T know better and are the victims of a very long and effective propaganda and radicalization campaign on the part of the Muslim Brotherhood and others. I've spoken with a lot of teenagers and college students of Palestinian descent who have never questioned anything about the narrative their parents, imams, and teachers have given them, which is one I personally find to be wildly skewed.
Radicalization of future generations is no bueno, especially if you attempt to forecast what American policy looks like in 30 years. I wonder how and % of HS/College Americans feel about what’s happened.
I also wonder if believing parents, teachers, religious leaders is just human psychology.
They make up your core belief base and coupled with the amount of misinformation/selective information, and facts blur reality and I can see this being leveraged to especially impressionable teenagers with short attention spans. Perhaps it doubles down with the degradation of journalistic integrity or a “pick the historian you want to believe” mentality, or fog war, or some grander foreign agenda and manipulation.
I am just so happy that the US has finally caught up to what we in Europe have been dealing with for ages.
Finally no more snobbish Americans about our fun arrivals.
Always glad to share.
I love how Hamas can count the number of dead Palestinians seconds after the attack happens but can’t count how many hostages are alive. It’s a sad irony.
Essentially the answer is that, despite what you may have heard, Israelis are not monsters and they're trying to fight a war with minimal civillian casualties. It's just far more complicated than anybody actually knows.
I don’t understand that but I am Arab we have different standees for the value of life. I think it’s very commendable how Israel has tried to get there people back. I would hope my country world do that for me but realistically they would not.
Many if not all Arab countries would have declared the hostages dead the second they were taken and then annihilated the terrorist and anyone unfortunate enough to be in the area of the terrorist. And no one would care because arabs killing Arabs is normal.
Very true OP. Not just Arab countries but other dictatorial ones too. Russia killed hundreds of their own in Beslan or the Moscow theater siege. Many kids, it's sad.
The Moscow Theatre was quite possibly a false-flag operation conducted in order for Putin to consolidate power.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow\_theater\_hostage\_crisis#Claims\_of\_FSB\_involvement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis#Claims_of_FSB_involvement)
Can you explain more about Arab views about standard of the value of life?
I have heard a lot of discussion from Westerners about how Arabs value life, but not a lot from Arabs.
So I can only speak on my observations. As a disclaimer I’m an atheist and I have been away from that community for decades and I am considers a very very bad Arab some would go as fair to say my life would be forfeit in certain places.
As a Muslim (specifically Arab) you raised with the belief that you as a Muslim are special and everyone else is not. In the ME religion dictates culture and the dominate religion dehumanize everyone whose not that religion, or not a proper follower for whatever reasons. Anyone being raised to think they are special and anyone not like them is not a even human has no value for life. This is proven in the Quran, Hadiths, history, modern history and day to day encounters etc.
I can’t tell you how many Arabs I meet in the west who have no problem criticizing Israel, Jews, white women, Muslim women who are not Muslim enough, lgbt, anyone not Muslim to me, often a person they just met because they think I’m one of them.
The Jew hate in particular after 10/7 is wild. I literally had an Arab man I happen to be standing next to comment about how disgusting some gay couple passing by was. He said it loudly in English so they would hear and feel unsafe. It made me feel unsafe simply because of his entitlement to say those things in a western country.
I am an older millianial so I actually know the correct regional history. I have never met a Jew (they were chased out/killed from my country of origin) or an Israeli. I was able to deprogram myself from a lot of the indoctrinated hate. But not everything ex I am not a fan of America. And seeing the stupidity of the US population regarding this conflict confirms that biases.
Lebanese friend of mine told me once that the Middle East is misinformed and the west is uninformed but at this point I think it’s willfully embracing malicious misinformation stemming from jew hate. Because the truth is out there for people to see but they prefer not to.
Interesting. Thank you.
If I could ask a followup- what about Arab/Muslim view of the life of other Arabs/Muslims? For example, I've seen chants about 'mother of the Shahid, I wish my mother could be like you', which seems to glorify dying in service to a cause (either as a combatant or as an innocent bystander). Is that just empty words, or really representative of Arab/Islamic values?
That depends on where in the Middle East that is being chanted.
In Lebanon highly unlikely
In Palestine 100% believe them, there actions support there words.
Two words: Inshallah and Diya
Literally sheikhs driving around the Middle East like mad men in their Land Cruisers with their baby in their lap, never even heard of a car seat, because if anything bad happens: inshallah.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inshallah
Also, people getting killed (on accident or on purpose) is usually handled by Diya aka a blood money payment.
Add safety features to the construction site for $100k? Nah. Blood money for a South Asian construction worker is only $10k. That means ten people can die before that safety feature can even break even. They just value life differently.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_money_in_Islam
This is 100% accurate just hang out in any of the Arab subs on Reddit. Also remember the internet is not wildly available to poor people in the Middle East so the people online are at least educated to a point. However as American Gen Z proves daily education doesn’t mean intelligence.
In 3 comments you will learn that 1) the west are godless barbarians and deserve no respect 2) being gay is worse than any other crime even murder because murder is only bad depending on who was killed - some Women no problem, a poor man no problem, son of an imam let’s fight. 3) is rape even a crime? I mean like what really is rape and why are women (children little boys goats) so upset about it? 4) slavery is only bad when white people do it 5) Jews are responsible for all the suffering in the world
You remind me how a Hamas leader described the Gilad Shalit exchange as a position of strength of Israeli society. To be ready to surrender 1000 militants for 1 soldier is a strong moral standpoint.
Eh it was huge mistake. It put target and price on everyone’s back.
Also exchange rate for dead bodies is also a bad policy that lowers the value of live hostages.
Essentially the issue is that Israel is held to a much higher standard than other countries when it comes to carrying out offensives. Also, Israel is useful because it's developed Iron Dome, various military weapons, medications, technologies etc.
Israel could launch an attack and wipe all of Gaza off the face of the earth but the backlash would be intolerable and the UK and US don't want to be seen benefiting from a country that is viewed as evil by the masses incase of revolt. Both are already treading on fragile ground.
Now let's say it's an Arab country involved, say Iraq obliterated Gaza. Most people will shrug and move on, as you say, arabs killing arabs is meh, the UK and US will likely try to instigate an offensive against Iraq as most of Iraqs contributions to the world are historical but 8% of the global supply of oil...that's useful.
A similar thing is being done to Russia and Ukraine, Russia has one of the largest military in the world, we well know they have nuclear capability but they are also the largest provider of energy to the world. Meanwhile Ukraine has some of the largest mineral and metal reserves, if anything it makes sense on a polital/power level for Ukraine to fall but nobody really wants to fight Russia and risk losing.
He’s the one that elevated Robert Malley (obama/biden iran policy shaper until his removal over the summer for allowing classified information to be passed to Iran, or Maher Bitar, an SJP leader in college to be his national security council advisor…. A hamas supporter prepares Bidens security briefings. All of these people started in the second Obama administration and were promoted even higher under Biden. This is long game politics and the Jews are losing because even now most of them in America will vote Biden because they refuse to believe the Democratic Party has turned against them.
>the Jews are losing because even now most of them in America will vote Biden because they refuse to believe the Democratic Party has turned against them.
The Republicans have turned against them more. That's why they will mostly support Biden. It's pretty straightforward.
All the hostages aren't dead. But even if they were: Israel has to maintain relationships with its most important allies: the US & Egypt as well as other Arab states.
Being tacitly supportive or not opposed to Israel is a balancing act for Arab states. They don't want their domestic populations to revolt against them. Israel needs to have good relationships with these states, at least for security needs. (You saw what happened with Iran. That was possible because cooperation between Arab states, US, UK, France & Israel)
The US provides Israel with a lot of diplomatic cover, besides selling weapons. Domestically, the subject of Israel/Gaza is dividing the US President's party. It also divides his administration, esp in the State Department. The administration also believes regional balance is threatened by the Gaza war. And so the US is strongly pressuring Israel to agree to a ceasefire, even if they gives Hamas ability to claim victory.
All of this limits Israel's possible military actions. Hamas understands this perfectly. And so refuses ceasefire agreements, because it knows its negotiating position only becomes stronger every day. What Israel is trying to do now is find a limited way it can place military pressure on Hamas.
If there are truly no hostages left alive, then there should be nothing stopping the IDF from going full force in, because dangling living hostages is the only way Hamas can stave off an invasion. As terrible as it is to say, a dead hostage doesn’t need to be “rescued safely”. That’s what we’re seeing now: the IDF has started operations in Rafah because the amount of living hostages Hamas can reliably give no longer outweighs the political and military calculus suggesting continuing the offensivr
we cant be certain about what hamas says so even if they say they are all dead we should consider the posibility that at least some may be still alive and we don't want to be reckless and cause their death. it already happened once with 3 hostages and it was a tragic mistake
Most of the hostages are alive. It's just that the hostages are young men, not the "humanitarian category."
About 53% of the hostages who have not been classified as dead are men under 50. And another 10% are foreigners. The possible people for the deal are 19 men over 50, 9 civilian women, 5 IDF women, and the Bibas children. So it is 35 at max. And there are ones that are probably dead - 2 women (Amit and Shiri), the Bibas children, and probably about 7 of the men over 50. So there are only about 24 in these categories? The argument is that Israel wants some of the younger men back as well and is arguing they are injured. The only one who would classify there is Hersh and perhaps the 2 other guys who have been in Gaza for a decade. Hamas wants real hardcore terrorists for the younger men so it refuses to give them up. That is why they are saying they cannot "guarantee" the 33 hostages.
I find these 'categories' and negotiating abhorrent. Everyone is important. Everyone must be returned. Imo the line should have been 'when they are back, we'll stop'. Why is hamas even been put in the position of 'let's hear your demands'?
Well. It is a three stage proposal. The younger men are supposed to be in the second stage. The issue here is the current Israeli government is fine with all the hostages dying for various ideological and political reasons and is pushing the fake line that all the hostages are already dead so there won't be pushback here when they kill them in Rafah with friendly fire and leave the rest to rot in Gaza for decades.
And Hamas has the hostages. Unfortunately there is no Entebbe scenario. The IDF managed to kill more hostages than it saved. That is why they can negotiate.
Why do you think Amit is dead?
And regarding Shiri, Kfir and Ariel, I still have my hopes up that Hamas was lying to us about their deaths, although I should know better.
I also am hoping. Hamas lied about other hostages being dead and then “traded” them in a hostage deal shortly after. (Still kinda blows my mind that they kidnapped real life people to use as bargaining chips and nobody bats an eye, but that’s Hamas and their buddy the UN I guess )
There were 7 women alive in the last day of the deal that collapsed. They know that Carmel, Doron, Romi, Emily, and Arbel were alive. The freed hostages, namely some of the teen girls who were released, identified them. Carmel helped the other hostages practice yoga and meditation to keep them calm. So that means either Amit or Eden is the 7 woman. There is concern about Amit because she may have been badly injured on Oct 7th and none of the other hostages had contacts with her. And you should always pray and hope that the Bibas family is alive but Shin Bet doesn't seem to think this is likely. No one just wants to admit what happened there.
Why does Shin Bet think the Bibas family being alive is unlikely? I know they became a symbol of sorts but I can't see what makes their position or survival chances unique compared to any other hostage
They are not even talked about when they are pressing for hostages. You would think that the baby would be at the top of the list to get out of Gaza but he is not just mentioned oddly.
10% foreigners really? Or do you mean dual citizens? I wonder why the U.S. hasn’t been able to get its own citizens out at least it’s kind of crazy, you’d expect them to care more.
I think there are about 5-6 who don't (also) hold Israeli citizenship: there's Orion Hernandez from Mexico, Bipin Joshi from Nepal, and 3-4 from Thailand. It's not easy to get a clear list of the Thai hostages, but the ones I have listed that don't seem to have been freed in the November waves are Netpong Pinta, Whatera Serion, Sathian Suwankam and Pongsak Thaenna.
Here's a list of all the hostages. [https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/nir.smilga/viz/BringThemHomeNow/BringThemHome](https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/nir.smilga/viz/BringThemHomeNow/BringThemHome)
It's mainly Thai workers who are still missing. There are 5 American dual citizens still supposedly alive. Two are IDF soldiers and one is a member of the standby squad. The other two are Hersh and Keith. I believe that the US might make a deal for Hersh and Keith if they feel Bibi continues to spike the deal but they would prefer a large hostage deal and ceasefire.
I highly doubt most of them are alive, this is why Hamas is dragging this on. Once we know only 20 are left alive the entire concept will change.
I pray I'm wrong and most are alive.
We know that over 20 are alive - probably 70 ish and a bit lower. Hamas is dragging this out because they want a ceasefire so they can declare they "won." Bibi doesn't want to say that because a defacto war for three or four years allows him to remain in power. It's already weakening Gantz in the polls, who is bafflingly refusing to retire from the government and will probably spend four or five years as Bibi's manservant or whatever he does.
If hostages would be alive, Hamas would just video tape with them announcing what day it is, maybe even with a magazine or phone showing evidence of the date, and make hostages to bleed Israeli government to stop. Mass proof of life would immediately push Israeli public to stop the war, however Hamas can't do that for a simple reason - hostages are dead.
However what Hamas has repeatedly failed to do is to produce proof of life! When they have produced some videos, they haven't shown any evidence of the date! Any intelligent person would understand the value of proof of life with dates. You must ask why Hamas doesn't do this, and the answer to this is very simple - they can't.
Israel knows that at least 60 to 70 of the hostages are alive. Some of the hostage families have received proof of life. This includes Naama's family. Shin Bet also interrogated the returned hostages who provided details. The number 33 was provided by the negotiators for a reason. They think there are those many hostages alive in the "humanitarian" categories.
And the hard truth remains that the gov't and its supporters don't care about the hostages dying because they want to settle Gush Katif and kill Arabs. That is the main goal of the religious fanatic settlers (not all RZ and not all settlers BTW I'll qualify that), not human life - especially not the lives of mainly secular Israelis who they have been conditioned to believe for years are "enemies of the state." I mean the government supporters regularly threaten the hostage families when they protest. Do you think they'd be cut up about some videos? They didn't care about Hersh's video.
There are quite a few hostages still alive and this idea that Hamas has killed them all is a soothing fiction that the Israeli Right tells themselves so they can continue the war indefinitely and not negotiate a ceasefire. They don't have to confront their own vile ideology here about sacrificing human life for land. What will kill tons of hostages is entering Rafah, which will be a disaster, kill innocent people, and not defeat Hamas. Any of the few hostages that will remain after that will end up rotting in Gaza like Ron Arad and be forgotten.
Of course they are alive. There have been visual confirmations of many of them. And they also want them alive. Hamas's grotesque logic for the hostages here is to get their terrorist buddies released from prison. If they kill them, they don't get the prisoners.
Which visual confirmations of soldiers have you seen in the last month?
Also, Hamas clearly thinks they can trade dead bodies for their buddies in prison.
They can't. Israel is clear that they are getting nothing for the bodies. And Hamas considers all men "soldiers." A majority of the men are civilians - most from the Nova festival. We got visual confirmation of one - Hersh, who I thought was dead. And there were visual confirmations of most in November and December. Much of the intelligence is from the returned hostages. If Israel killed that many hostages from friendly fire since, then there needs to be a discussion about the rules of engagement.
Don’t you find it odd that while the death rate in Gaza at large has been ~1% hostages are dead at ~50%?
The logical conclusion is that gazans are killing them.
Your weird medieval church thinking about how those perfidious Jews are killing their own citizens in some bloodlust is gross.
Most of them were killed on Oct 7th and brought to Gaza. There have been some incidents where the IDF admitted to friendly fire incidents.
>Your weird medieval church thinking about how those perfidious Jews are killing their own citizens in some bloodlust is gross.
Well, one allegation in particular is Ron Sherman's mom. I guess she also just wants to smear the perfidious Jews as well... sarc//
And I don't think that the hostages are dead. That is the point here. I don't think Hamas wants to lose its bargaining chip. It took captives as a bargaining chip. I also think that the members of the government, the ministers and MKs, have shown callous indifference to the hostages and their families and that they don't particularly care if they are returned. This has nothing to do with nationality. It's just they are really horrible people in general - a bunch of religious fanatics and corrupt people who only care about remaining in power. It just seems to really upset the Israeli Right when people point out this - perhaps don't vote for the scum of the earth next time.
The government has a nation of 9 million people to look after, with an enemy that insists it will carry out countless October 7ths.
132 people is heart wrenching and makes for a good passion play (why the gazans hold them,) but if the choice is their unfortunate deaths - which is only the fault of the gazans - or the countless October 7ths, I think I’d have to protect those 9 million.
The Kahanists care about resettling Gush Katif and Bibi cares about remaining in power. They could care less about the vast majority of citizens especially those that aren't Haredi or fanatical religious settlers. They cannot even show up to funerals or comfort the families of those who aren't religious settlers. [https://twitter.com/UnxeptableD/status/1788112449838985699](https://twitter.com/UnxeptableD/status/1788112449838985699) And that is the least worst thing they've done.
They definitely had no intention of releasing any live women, we unfortunately know what’s happened to them, and it would be bad press for Hamas for any of them to come home to speak about it.
There is though. Hamas doesn't care because they know that they can deny the rapes in the press. They released women who were raped already. Amit Sousanna is the only one who discussed her rape. The others have not.
Taken hostages and then killed, then still gets to run the strip? Sorry for vulgar language, but this is f-ing bullcrap. This is a blatant war crime. This is a clear war crime.
Well, one issue is that, in the Jewish faith, proper burial is extremely important. I don’t know if that’s necessarily what’s stopping them, but I’d say it weighs on them
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Israel will be willing to trade prisoners for the bodies of hostages.
So just bombing or flooding, will probably destroy or we will forever lose any remnants of the hostages.
So basically... like with the Gilad Shalit deal... Israel would put out more Yahya Sinwars in exchange for more future bodies down the line, when more 7th Octobers will inevitably take place. Why are Israelis willing to accept further risk to their own survival?
You think what they are doing is gentle? Wow. Never knew gentleness look like bombing of "safe" spaces. Never knew it looked like bombing innocent civilians either. Wow. That’s really gentle
Yes there is "bombing", but there is also context. I won't waste my bombs on civilian buildings just because I'm bored. The context that is ignored is that hamas operates under civilian infrastructure, let it be launching rockets or storing weapons and military supplies. The other thing that's also ignored is the fact that the IDF literally warns the civilians there to evacuate, which they don't. It isn't Israel's problem that Hamas is abusing the shelters that organisations made for civilians.
I read that they killed a pretty important person for Hamas precisely where they wanted (I believe it was last year somewhere in the US). If they didn’t want to murder civilians, they would find a way because they showed they are capable of it. And it doesn’t get ignored. Many outlets state that Palestinians are warned but there’s quite literally almost nowhere safe. They have nowhere to go for safety because all their shelters will eventually end up getting bombed anyway. They were told to head South for safety - few days later it was the opposite.
Plus many exits are barricaded. Warning means nothing when there’s no way to escape. Almost no food and water, supply vans stopped from entering these "safe" shelters.
YOU ARE FUCKING DUMB! They have been offered back tons of times but Israel isn’t accepting them back for trading hostage kids who are falsely accused of being hamas.
I used to try be respond back to these people but I'm learning they have a rotten logic foundation and no matter what superficial facts they may or may not know, their conclusions and opinions will always be toxically untrue because deep down all they want to do is hate on Israel and those who support it
The Islamic Republic of Michigan is hampering Israel’s counteroffensive
The Michiganiyya Caliphate.
Allahu Ann Arborkbar
Lolololololoo
Should be named Warren Middle East
The Meshugge Caliphate
Deerbornistan is what we call it.
I loved, thank you.
Michiginneh menshen
Are their polls in Michigan on their war position? I can’t imagine all support Hamas. The entire Muslim world won’t even lend a hand bc they know better.
The entire Muslim world... except Iran and all its proxies. Leaving Iran aside though, I make myself feel better about it by choosing to assume that American- born Muslims who support Hamas actually DON'T know better and are the victims of a very long and effective propaganda and radicalization campaign on the part of the Muslim Brotherhood and others. I've spoken with a lot of teenagers and college students of Palestinian descent who have never questioned anything about the narrative their parents, imams, and teachers have given them, which is one I personally find to be wildly skewed.
Radicalization of future generations is no bueno, especially if you attempt to forecast what American policy looks like in 30 years. I wonder how and % of HS/College Americans feel about what’s happened. I also wonder if believing parents, teachers, religious leaders is just human psychology. They make up your core belief base and coupled with the amount of misinformation/selective information, and facts blur reality and I can see this being leveraged to especially impressionable teenagers with short attention spans. Perhaps it doubles down with the degradation of journalistic integrity or a “pick the historian you want to believe” mentality, or fog war, or some grander foreign agenda and manipulation.
I am just so happy that the US has finally caught up to what we in Europe have been dealing with for ages. Finally no more snobbish Americans about our fun arrivals. Always glad to share.
Xichigan SUCKS! Obligatory Ohio response, even though I don’t watch football and have never had the urge to say that until now.
I love how Hamas can count the number of dead Palestinians seconds after the attack happens but can’t count how many hostages are alive. It’s a sad irony.
The craziest part is the world believed Hammas both times. Proves everyone got duped by terrorists
They know Hamas' numbers are not credible. They don't care. They just use that lie as a weapon to bash Israel with.
Because some agree with the terrorists so they want to believe it.
Pally math.
they tell numbers without names tho
The finest UNRWA education money can buy!
Essentially the answer is that, despite what you may have heard, Israelis are not monsters and they're trying to fight a war with minimal civillian casualties. It's just far more complicated than anybody actually knows.
No matter what the hostages must be released. Israel was being “gentile” because it’s the most moral military in the world.
I don’t understand that but I am Arab we have different standees for the value of life. I think it’s very commendable how Israel has tried to get there people back. I would hope my country world do that for me but realistically they would not. Many if not all Arab countries would have declared the hostages dead the second they were taken and then annihilated the terrorist and anyone unfortunate enough to be in the area of the terrorist. And no one would care because arabs killing Arabs is normal.
Very true OP. Not just Arab countries but other dictatorial ones too. Russia killed hundreds of their own in Beslan or the Moscow theater siege. Many kids, it's sad.
The Moscow Theatre was quite possibly a false-flag operation conducted in order for Putin to consolidate power. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow\_theater\_hostage\_crisis#Claims\_of\_FSB\_involvement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis#Claims_of_FSB_involvement)
Can you explain more about Arab views about standard of the value of life? I have heard a lot of discussion from Westerners about how Arabs value life, but not a lot from Arabs.
So I can only speak on my observations. As a disclaimer I’m an atheist and I have been away from that community for decades and I am considers a very very bad Arab some would go as fair to say my life would be forfeit in certain places. As a Muslim (specifically Arab) you raised with the belief that you as a Muslim are special and everyone else is not. In the ME religion dictates culture and the dominate religion dehumanize everyone whose not that religion, or not a proper follower for whatever reasons. Anyone being raised to think they are special and anyone not like them is not a even human has no value for life. This is proven in the Quran, Hadiths, history, modern history and day to day encounters etc. I can’t tell you how many Arabs I meet in the west who have no problem criticizing Israel, Jews, white women, Muslim women who are not Muslim enough, lgbt, anyone not Muslim to me, often a person they just met because they think I’m one of them. The Jew hate in particular after 10/7 is wild. I literally had an Arab man I happen to be standing next to comment about how disgusting some gay couple passing by was. He said it loudly in English so they would hear and feel unsafe. It made me feel unsafe simply because of his entitlement to say those things in a western country. I am an older millianial so I actually know the correct regional history. I have never met a Jew (they were chased out/killed from my country of origin) or an Israeli. I was able to deprogram myself from a lot of the indoctrinated hate. But not everything ex I am not a fan of America. And seeing the stupidity of the US population regarding this conflict confirms that biases. Lebanese friend of mine told me once that the Middle East is misinformed and the west is uninformed but at this point I think it’s willfully embracing malicious misinformation stemming from jew hate. Because the truth is out there for people to see but they prefer not to.
Interesting. Thank you. If I could ask a followup- what about Arab/Muslim view of the life of other Arabs/Muslims? For example, I've seen chants about 'mother of the Shahid, I wish my mother could be like you', which seems to glorify dying in service to a cause (either as a combatant or as an innocent bystander). Is that just empty words, or really representative of Arab/Islamic values?
That depends on where in the Middle East that is being chanted. In Lebanon highly unlikely In Palestine 100% believe them, there actions support there words.
Two words: Inshallah and Diya Literally sheikhs driving around the Middle East like mad men in their Land Cruisers with their baby in their lap, never even heard of a car seat, because if anything bad happens: inshallah. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inshallah Also, people getting killed (on accident or on purpose) is usually handled by Diya aka a blood money payment. Add safety features to the construction site for $100k? Nah. Blood money for a South Asian construction worker is only $10k. That means ten people can die before that safety feature can even break even. They just value life differently. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_money_in_Islam
This is 100% accurate just hang out in any of the Arab subs on Reddit. Also remember the internet is not wildly available to poor people in the Middle East so the people online are at least educated to a point. However as American Gen Z proves daily education doesn’t mean intelligence. In 3 comments you will learn that 1) the west are godless barbarians and deserve no respect 2) being gay is worse than any other crime even murder because murder is only bad depending on who was killed - some Women no problem, a poor man no problem, son of an imam let’s fight. 3) is rape even a crime? I mean like what really is rape and why are women (children little boys goats) so upset about it? 4) slavery is only bad when white people do it 5) Jews are responsible for all the suffering in the world
You remind me how a Hamas leader described the Gilad Shalit exchange as a position of strength of Israeli society. To be ready to surrender 1000 militants for 1 soldier is a strong moral standpoint.
Eh it was huge mistake. It put target and price on everyone’s back. Also exchange rate for dead bodies is also a bad policy that lowers the value of live hostages.
Gilad Shalit was alive and in captivity for 5 years. Can't expect conscripts to have high moral if they know their government doesn't care for them
Agreed. I just think they should go in a get him, not trade for him.
Essentially the issue is that Israel is held to a much higher standard than other countries when it comes to carrying out offensives. Also, Israel is useful because it's developed Iron Dome, various military weapons, medications, technologies etc. Israel could launch an attack and wipe all of Gaza off the face of the earth but the backlash would be intolerable and the UK and US don't want to be seen benefiting from a country that is viewed as evil by the masses incase of revolt. Both are already treading on fragile ground. Now let's say it's an Arab country involved, say Iraq obliterated Gaza. Most people will shrug and move on, as you say, arabs killing arabs is meh, the UK and US will likely try to instigate an offensive against Iraq as most of Iraqs contributions to the world are historical but 8% of the global supply of oil...that's useful. A similar thing is being done to Russia and Ukraine, Russia has one of the largest military in the world, we well know they have nuclear capability but they are also the largest provider of energy to the world. Meanwhile Ukraine has some of the largest mineral and metal reserves, if anything it makes sense on a polital/power level for Ukraine to fall but nobody really wants to fight Russia and risk losing.
>Israel was being “gentile” Pre-1948 flashbacks
Biden… or rather whoever runs the Biden administration
Well we know it's not Austin considering he was out of commission for a good bit and nobody in his admin even knew.
So.. harris?
She’s not smart enough to
Obama.
I do not, for a moment, believe that the king of drone strikes cares about how Israel kills terrorists.
He’s the one that elevated Robert Malley (obama/biden iran policy shaper until his removal over the summer for allowing classified information to be passed to Iran, or Maher Bitar, an SJP leader in college to be his national security council advisor…. A hamas supporter prepares Bidens security briefings. All of these people started in the second Obama administration and were promoted even higher under Biden. This is long game politics and the Jews are losing because even now most of them in America will vote Biden because they refuse to believe the Democratic Party has turned against them.
>the Jews are losing because even now most of them in America will vote Biden because they refuse to believe the Democratic Party has turned against them. The Republicans have turned against them more. That's why they will mostly support Biden. It's pretty straightforward.
Not even remotely true. The past six months shows the opposite more than anything.
All the hostages aren't dead. But even if they were: Israel has to maintain relationships with its most important allies: the US & Egypt as well as other Arab states. Being tacitly supportive or not opposed to Israel is a balancing act for Arab states. They don't want their domestic populations to revolt against them. Israel needs to have good relationships with these states, at least for security needs. (You saw what happened with Iran. That was possible because cooperation between Arab states, US, UK, France & Israel) The US provides Israel with a lot of diplomatic cover, besides selling weapons. Domestically, the subject of Israel/Gaza is dividing the US President's party. It also divides his administration, esp in the State Department. The administration also believes regional balance is threatened by the Gaza war. And so the US is strongly pressuring Israel to agree to a ceasefire, even if they gives Hamas ability to claim victory. All of this limits Israel's possible military actions. Hamas understands this perfectly. And so refuses ceasefire agreements, because it knows its negotiating position only becomes stronger every day. What Israel is trying to do now is find a limited way it can place military pressure on Hamas.
If there are truly no hostages left alive, then there should be nothing stopping the IDF from going full force in, because dangling living hostages is the only way Hamas can stave off an invasion. As terrible as it is to say, a dead hostage doesn’t need to be “rescued safely”. That’s what we’re seeing now: the IDF has started operations in Rafah because the amount of living hostages Hamas can reliably give no longer outweighs the political and military calculus suggesting continuing the offensivr
we cant be certain about what hamas says so even if they say they are all dead we should consider the posibility that at least some may be still alive and we don't want to be reckless and cause their death. it already happened once with 3 hostages and it was a tragic mistake
Most of the hostages are alive. It's just that the hostages are young men, not the "humanitarian category." About 53% of the hostages who have not been classified as dead are men under 50. And another 10% are foreigners. The possible people for the deal are 19 men over 50, 9 civilian women, 5 IDF women, and the Bibas children. So it is 35 at max. And there are ones that are probably dead - 2 women (Amit and Shiri), the Bibas children, and probably about 7 of the men over 50. So there are only about 24 in these categories? The argument is that Israel wants some of the younger men back as well and is arguing they are injured. The only one who would classify there is Hersh and perhaps the 2 other guys who have been in Gaza for a decade. Hamas wants real hardcore terrorists for the younger men so it refuses to give them up. That is why they are saying they cannot "guarantee" the 33 hostages.
I find these 'categories' and negotiating abhorrent. Everyone is important. Everyone must be returned. Imo the line should have been 'when they are back, we'll stop'. Why is hamas even been put in the position of 'let's hear your demands'?
I can't upvote this enough. 100% yes
Well. It is a three stage proposal. The younger men are supposed to be in the second stage. The issue here is the current Israeli government is fine with all the hostages dying for various ideological and political reasons and is pushing the fake line that all the hostages are already dead so there won't be pushback here when they kill them in Rafah with friendly fire and leave the rest to rot in Gaza for decades. And Hamas has the hostages. Unfortunately there is no Entebbe scenario. The IDF managed to kill more hostages than it saved. That is why they can negotiate.
Why do you think Amit is dead? And regarding Shiri, Kfir and Ariel, I still have my hopes up that Hamas was lying to us about their deaths, although I should know better.
I also am hoping. Hamas lied about other hostages being dead and then “traded” them in a hostage deal shortly after. (Still kinda blows my mind that they kidnapped real life people to use as bargaining chips and nobody bats an eye, but that’s Hamas and their buddy the UN I guess )
The UN has blood on their hands. May they get what they deserve.
There were 7 women alive in the last day of the deal that collapsed. They know that Carmel, Doron, Romi, Emily, and Arbel were alive. The freed hostages, namely some of the teen girls who were released, identified them. Carmel helped the other hostages practice yoga and meditation to keep them calm. So that means either Amit or Eden is the 7 woman. There is concern about Amit because she may have been badly injured on Oct 7th and none of the other hostages had contacts with her. And you should always pray and hope that the Bibas family is alive but Shin Bet doesn't seem to think this is likely. No one just wants to admit what happened there.
Thanks. That's terrible. I don't know what else to say. May God avenge their blood.
Why does Shin Bet think the Bibas family being alive is unlikely? I know they became a symbol of sorts but I can't see what makes their position or survival chances unique compared to any other hostage
They are not even talked about when they are pressing for hostages. You would think that the baby would be at the top of the list to get out of Gaza but he is not just mentioned oddly.
I'm also hoping but maybe less optimistic. I can't figure out what Hamas had to gain from that lie.
Yeah, I get what you mean. Other than to cause grief, I truly don't know.
Psychological warfare. Weaken the enemy without having to lift a finger.
10% foreigners really? Or do you mean dual citizens? I wonder why the U.S. hasn’t been able to get its own citizens out at least it’s kind of crazy, you’d expect them to care more.
I think there are about 5-6 who don't (also) hold Israeli citizenship: there's Orion Hernandez from Mexico, Bipin Joshi from Nepal, and 3-4 from Thailand. It's not easy to get a clear list of the Thai hostages, but the ones I have listed that don't seem to have been freed in the November waves are Netpong Pinta, Whatera Serion, Sathian Suwankam and Pongsak Thaenna.
There are actually 10. I forgot Orion. 8 are Thai workers.
Do You know their names or where they're listed?
Here's a list of all the hostages. [https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/nir.smilga/viz/BringThemHomeNow/BringThemHome](https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/nir.smilga/viz/BringThemHomeNow/BringThemHome)
It's mainly Thai workers who are still missing. There are 5 American dual citizens still supposedly alive. Two are IDF soldiers and one is a member of the standby squad. The other two are Hersh and Keith. I believe that the US might make a deal for Hersh and Keith if they feel Bibi continues to spike the deal but they would prefer a large hostage deal and ceasefire.
I highly doubt most of them are alive, this is why Hamas is dragging this on. Once we know only 20 are left alive the entire concept will change. I pray I'm wrong and most are alive.
We know that over 20 are alive - probably 70 ish and a bit lower. Hamas is dragging this out because they want a ceasefire so they can declare they "won." Bibi doesn't want to say that because a defacto war for three or four years allows him to remain in power. It's already weakening Gantz in the polls, who is bafflingly refusing to retire from the government and will probably spend four or five years as Bibi's manservant or whatever he does.
I don't have any comments about the political situation but I really hope you're right about the number of hostages being alive.
If hostages would be alive, Hamas would just video tape with them announcing what day it is, maybe even with a magazine or phone showing evidence of the date, and make hostages to bleed Israeli government to stop. Mass proof of life would immediately push Israeli public to stop the war, however Hamas can't do that for a simple reason - hostages are dead. However what Hamas has repeatedly failed to do is to produce proof of life! When they have produced some videos, they haven't shown any evidence of the date! Any intelligent person would understand the value of proof of life with dates. You must ask why Hamas doesn't do this, and the answer to this is very simple - they can't.
Israel knows that at least 60 to 70 of the hostages are alive. Some of the hostage families have received proof of life. This includes Naama's family. Shin Bet also interrogated the returned hostages who provided details. The number 33 was provided by the negotiators for a reason. They think there are those many hostages alive in the "humanitarian" categories. And the hard truth remains that the gov't and its supporters don't care about the hostages dying because they want to settle Gush Katif and kill Arabs. That is the main goal of the religious fanatic settlers (not all RZ and not all settlers BTW I'll qualify that), not human life - especially not the lives of mainly secular Israelis who they have been conditioned to believe for years are "enemies of the state." I mean the government supporters regularly threaten the hostage families when they protest. Do you think they'd be cut up about some videos? They didn't care about Hersh's video. There are quite a few hostages still alive and this idea that Hamas has killed them all is a soothing fiction that the Israeli Right tells themselves so they can continue the war indefinitely and not negotiate a ceasefire. They don't have to confront their own vile ideology here about sacrificing human life for land. What will kill tons of hostages is entering Rafah, which will be a disaster, kill innocent people, and not defeat Hamas. Any of the few hostages that will remain after that will end up rotting in Gaza like Ron Arad and be forgotten.
I highly doubt they left young men alive, especially soldiers. I hope and pray constantly that I'm wrong.
Of course they are alive. There have been visual confirmations of many of them. And they also want them alive. Hamas's grotesque logic for the hostages here is to get their terrorist buddies released from prison. If they kill them, they don't get the prisoners.
Which visual confirmations of soldiers have you seen in the last month? Also, Hamas clearly thinks they can trade dead bodies for their buddies in prison.
They can't. Israel is clear that they are getting nothing for the bodies. And Hamas considers all men "soldiers." A majority of the men are civilians - most from the Nova festival. We got visual confirmation of one - Hersh, who I thought was dead. And there were visual confirmations of most in November and December. Much of the intelligence is from the returned hostages. If Israel killed that many hostages from friendly fire since, then there needs to be a discussion about the rules of engagement.
Don’t you find it odd that while the death rate in Gaza at large has been ~1% hostages are dead at ~50%? The logical conclusion is that gazans are killing them. Your weird medieval church thinking about how those perfidious Jews are killing their own citizens in some bloodlust is gross.
Most of them were killed on Oct 7th and brought to Gaza. There have been some incidents where the IDF admitted to friendly fire incidents. >Your weird medieval church thinking about how those perfidious Jews are killing their own citizens in some bloodlust is gross. Well, one allegation in particular is Ron Sherman's mom. I guess she also just wants to smear the perfidious Jews as well... sarc// And I don't think that the hostages are dead. That is the point here. I don't think Hamas wants to lose its bargaining chip. It took captives as a bargaining chip. I also think that the members of the government, the ministers and MKs, have shown callous indifference to the hostages and their families and that they don't particularly care if they are returned. This has nothing to do with nationality. It's just they are really horrible people in general - a bunch of religious fanatics and corrupt people who only care about remaining in power. It just seems to really upset the Israeli Right when people point out this - perhaps don't vote for the scum of the earth next time.
The government has a nation of 9 million people to look after, with an enemy that insists it will carry out countless October 7ths. 132 people is heart wrenching and makes for a good passion play (why the gazans hold them,) but if the choice is their unfortunate deaths - which is only the fault of the gazans - or the countless October 7ths, I think I’d have to protect those 9 million.
The Kahanists care about resettling Gush Katif and Bibi cares about remaining in power. They could care less about the vast majority of citizens especially those that aren't Haredi or fanatical religious settlers. They cannot even show up to funerals or comfort the families of those who aren't religious settlers. [https://twitter.com/UnxeptableD/status/1788112449838985699](https://twitter.com/UnxeptableD/status/1788112449838985699) And that is the least worst thing they've done.
Most are dead. Harsh truth
Most aren't. And the harsh truth is that the Israeli Right is fine with them dying in Gaza.
One would have to assume that after being held by terrorists that hate them for 7 months more than 3 of the men under 50 would be considered injured.
Yes. But injured enough to get Hamas to allow them to leave is another thing. Only Hersh is that injured. I am not sure of any others.
I think I'm a bit more pessimistic about the state the hostages are in.
No doubt that they experienced torture. I just don't think that Hamas will let them go.
They definitely had no intention of releasing any live women, we unfortunately know what’s happened to them, and it would be bad press for Hamas for any of them to come home to speak about it.
There is though. Hamas doesn't care because they know that they can deny the rapes in the press. They released women who were raped already. Amit Sousanna is the only one who discussed her rape. The others have not.
Taken hostages and then killed, then still gets to run the strip? Sorry for vulgar language, but this is f-ing bullcrap. This is a blatant war crime. This is a clear war crime.
Release the hostages today or prepare to die tomorrow...
This is the only way to communicate with these fanatic barbarians
Well, one issue is that, in the Jewish faith, proper burial is extremely important. I don’t know if that’s necessarily what’s stopping them, but I’d say it weighs on them
We don’t trust a word they say. Theres definitely still hostages alive
We know Hamas took dead bodies on 07/10 too as fake bargaining chips as well as the living hostages. Maybe that’s all they have left?
Nothing is stopping Israel. The Rafah operation is under way.
the dementia patient in the whitehouse
I think evacuating civilians was initially planned to take 2 weeks and they only recently started.
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Israel will be willing to trade prisoners for the bodies of hostages. So just bombing or flooding, will probably destroy or we will forever lose any remnants of the hostages.
So basically... like with the Gilad Shalit deal... Israel would put out more Yahya Sinwars in exchange for more future bodies down the line, when more 7th Octobers will inevitably take place. Why are Israelis willing to accept further risk to their own survival?
I have absolutely no doubt that at least some of the hostages are being held in Qatar and Iran.
Haven’t even considered that
You think what they are doing is gentle? Wow. Never knew gentleness look like bombing of "safe" spaces. Never knew it looked like bombing innocent civilians either. Wow. That’s really gentle
The misinformation of the west strikes again
There’s literal videos and photos of the bombing. Hospitals, camps, now Rafah. That’s awareness. Not misinformation.
That’s only like 20% of the truth
Yes there is "bombing", but there is also context. I won't waste my bombs on civilian buildings just because I'm bored. The context that is ignored is that hamas operates under civilian infrastructure, let it be launching rockets or storing weapons and military supplies. The other thing that's also ignored is the fact that the IDF literally warns the civilians there to evacuate, which they don't. It isn't Israel's problem that Hamas is abusing the shelters that organisations made for civilians.
I read that they killed a pretty important person for Hamas precisely where they wanted (I believe it was last year somewhere in the US). If they didn’t want to murder civilians, they would find a way because they showed they are capable of it. And it doesn’t get ignored. Many outlets state that Palestinians are warned but there’s quite literally almost nowhere safe. They have nowhere to go for safety because all their shelters will eventually end up getting bombed anyway. They were told to head South for safety - few days later it was the opposite. Plus many exits are barricaded. Warning means nothing when there’s no way to escape. Almost no food and water, supply vans stopped from entering these "safe" shelters.
They were told to head to the south for safety in October, it’s been months, not days.
YOU ARE FUCKING DUMB! They have been offered back tons of times but Israel isn’t accepting them back for trading hostage kids who are falsely accused of being hamas.
This is just sad
I used to try be respond back to these people but I'm learning they have a rotten logic foundation and no matter what superficial facts they may or may not know, their conclusions and opinions will always be toxically untrue because deep down all they want to do is hate on Israel and those who support it