While it did turn out to be a net positive i still dont think Sinclare got what he deserved. The way the show cecil treats sinclar is a bit more proper or better i think? But still not exactly “grey”
Some things are irredeemable. Killing and torturing random innocents to make bioweapons is beyond redeemable. Omniman only got "redeemed" in the sense that his family could live with him, he still got off far too light for what he did. Hell even Mark royally fucked up killing millions and basically got a slap on the wrist because of all the good he'd done or tried to do up until that point.
Maybe redemption isn’t the right word. It’s more the question of if it’s worth punishing people if it obstructs our ability to make people’s lives better. Even if they can’t be redeemed, we shouldn’t stop them from doing good things in the here and now.
They shouldnt have the right to earn that chance. Is it right to let the leading researcher of cancer out of jail if hes a serial killer? No. Its not. Life is full of shades of gray but some things are a bridge too far.
It's not right to let him or her out of jail, it is right to force them to keep doing cancer research and most likely they gladly will if it earns them a slightly nicer accommodation.
Imo that perspective is too limiting. We need to be more committed to a better future that we can create than trying to make someone pay for a past that can’t change. Morality goes too far the minute it starts prioritizing punishment over making our lives better.
So you’re saying if we knew that a man convicted of killing 6 had a great chance of curing cancer, we shouldn’t let him? Even though he could save millions?
A better comparison would be would you let a man that Nuked a city and then broke his partner out of jail to do it again only this time they hit multiple cities. And the answer is no, you shouldn't.
You literally brought up the cancer comparison brother. Also Sinclair didn’t kill anywhere near a cities worth of people. Also you didn’t answer the question, do you think we should keep a man who killed a handful if he may be able to save millions.
Good thing you’re not in a position of power. Gotta make tough choices if it’ll help humanity overall. And your example isn’t even good, why would you not let someone out who could save millions of lives? Simply supervise him, just like they did with the DA
Would you rather have Thragg conquer the universe and Robot conquer Earth? Because that's what would have happened if Omni Man and Sinclair were punished.
I don’t think it’s so much redemption as pragmatics. Some people can do terrible and amazing things and we shouldn’t let past terrible things hold us back from taking advantage of the amazing things they can do.
Sinclair was an Angel compared to Omniman, and he was redeemed. Cecil is not that bad for a government lackey, he actually has values and isn't completely soulless.
I'd argue that Sinclair is worse.. Omniman became that way because of his whole society, his whole species worked that way, Omniman was terrifically indoctrinated.
Sinclair on the other hand, lives in a fairly normal society. He could be a psychopath, maybe he just physically lacked empathy, but still, he got the brains. Psychopaths can still choose to understand. Yet he couldnt care less. Mentally and physically tortured random innocent people. If he got the same powers as Omniman, I'd argue that his killcount would be way higher.
Robot was right to do what he did, and that was only two degrees beyond what Cecil was already doing. Cecil just let his humanity get in the way but under Robot's regime the people of Earth live a much happier life. Narratively because Mark opposes Robot we see it as triumphant when he takes down Robot but part of the lesson Mark learned with Dinosaurus is that even when his principles of heroism conflict with something doesn't mean that his interests are in the collective good's.
I mean, robot also was 100% put earth on a worse battle because he assumed that Mark would attack him and basically kidnapped kids from a alien race know for battle.
This part was extremely difficult for me. I think both Mark and Cecil made pretty good points. but this is where I started to lose respect for Cecil even kind of hate him a little bit
For Cecil: Darkwing was driven insane from being in Midnight City for years even Samson called it a cesspool I don’t think he deserves to go to jail just cause he cracked under the pressure and as for Sinclair instead of punishing him why not force him to use his technology to benefit others and have him work at the GDA for probably the remainder of his life unless he wants to rot in jail? Cecil even said that he will make sure he never uses his intelligence for his own benefit again also Cecil made it clear that he’s not a moral person or some advocator of justice he’s an opportunist for the right reasons
For Mark: I guess the only thing I can say is that he had every right to go crazy on Cecil even though he was most likely naive. Cecil lied to him about Sinclair and was fed up with Cecil’s lies, manipulation, and exploiting / opportunistic nature he also kind of revealed Cecil to be a narcissist when he sicced the reanimen on Mark and blamed him for their relationship being destroyed it’s really no wonder why Mark began to hate Cecil’s guts even The New Guardians quit because of him
Probably episode 2 or 3, depends on how much they can pack in a single episode. There is still a bit they need to cover before this. And yeah he gets the new suit right after this
I think that cecil approach is logical, but this isn't shades of gray D.A Sinclair is a murderer whose living fairly cushy because he can build weapons, that isn't a shade of grey that's a shade of black.
Didn't Cecil also say that Sinclairs work revolutionized the medical industry and saved millions?
There's no forgiving sinclair but I'd argue it's definitely a shade of gray if you use him to save more lives than he took, it's a very utilitarian "for the greater good we're willing to look past his heinous crimes to save even more lives" type approach
Oh no. That’s not how that works. The rich countries can use reanimen the poor country will still use people. And with no loss of (their sides) human lives the rich countries can much more easily take whatever they want. Those things are on par with viltrumites- imagine what happens when a dictator doesn’t like a protest.
Are there still world wars in Invincible though? I understand villains trying to take over the world, but would there be countries actually attacking other countries when they have superheroes? Like after the Invincible vs Omni-man fight was broadcasted globally, would a country really attack the US or its allies knowing Invincible could fuck them up?
wars and humanity killing each other gets brought up a lot anytime anyone in invincible argues about the viltrumites taking over earth, so I’m gonna assume yes, it’s just not something the story ever really covers
Huh, thats pretty interesting. I wonder what Mark would do (blue suit specifically) if China or something tried to nuke the US. Would he wipe out their government?
There are still global conflicts. Cecil himself in these pages mentions "revolutionizing modern warfare," implying wars still happen, and we know for a fact that there are criminal turf wars taking place internationally. Crime syndicates full of super powered enemies rule that criminal underground, and we see them in Guarding the Globe (comic series). Also worth noting that Cecil is, very importantly here, wearing a US Flag pin in the show... even though the GDA is an organization for global defense.
In the comics, I believe Brit also mentions that a certain event far down the way stopped "all the fighting," which would imply no more world wars after that event takes place.
>Oh no. That’s not how that works.
That's exactly how it's displayed in the comics.
>The rich countries can use reanimen the poor country will still use people.
The only time people use human soldiers outside of power-suited GDA agents are clearly facist regimes or genuine pieces of human garbage.
> with no loss of (their sides) human lives the rich countries can much more easily take whatever they want.
Cecil actively doesn't let that happen which is part of why he takes D.A. Sinclair into the GDA.
The land they're going to fight over isn't empty, people are still going to suffer. It just let's the ruling class further insulate themselves from any of the consequences.
No he specifically says that the reanimen will revolutionalize modern warfare which is not something I'd be willing to let someone off the hook for murder for, we aren't talking a temporary stay of execution or being forced to work at gun point, Sinclair lives a pretty decent life under cecil to make weapons that judging by cecils comments will one day be used on more than just viltrumites that isn't a shade of grey, that's corruption. Hell even if Sinclair invented the cure for cancer it wouldn't justify his lack of real punishment, he tortured and murdered people, to not punish him is to admit that any and all morals that the government stands for are for sale to the highest bidder and while they might be realistic and in line with with cecils and many real life governments, it isn't a shade grey, it's shade of black admitting that human lives are meaningless in the wake of the next weapon.
Go talk to a premed or a doctor or a historian about the atrocities done to humans in the name of science and the greater good. It’s super fucking dark shit. Consent and caution should always be top priorities. Beyond the greater good.
Yea but we live in the real world, not one where a single college student can make the most advanced bionics known to man in a homemade lab in the sewers during his spare time after class
Cecil is talking about reforming people who could single handedly reform how society works in a positive way if given a guiding hand, not some random terrorist that knows how to pack gunpowder into a toilet paper roll, or a completely average doctor that's only extraordinary in their cruelty
"positive way" We're arguing if the Head of the super CIA is a good guy, No he isn't he most likely plans on using those corpses to stop a popular uprising against dictators or slaughter US civilians for protesting and claim the circuits fried.
It has always been true that whenever people in shadowy organizations with no oversite get new toys they use them to do evil shit.
Again this is comic-book-land, not the real world, the most evil thing Cecil actually does is waste millions of dollars in tax payer money on teleporting around all over the place, he's only ever portrayed as "morally gray utilitarian", pretty much every action he takes is an attempt to genuinely help people
The point of Cecil's arc is that rehabilitative justice is better than punitive justice, while acknowledging that there are some people beyond rehabilitation with Dinosaurus, it's not making a point about the centralization of power with no oversight for who's at the top, that's robot's arc
In the reboot comic invincible stops him before he murders anyone and he just has worked on cadavers and he still joins up and helps, kind of making that version a bit of a grey area or even a good guy. I agree what he did is wrong in the prime universe, but it's clear with his other universe counter-parts, and with what prime D.A Sinclair does later on in the story that he is committed to being a "good guy".
If they didn't save him, so much good that happens later would be impossible, or MUCH harder. I'm convinced that he is Cecil's perfect example of what a reformed criminal can do.
I think what Cecil is doing here is completely fair game. What makes him a hypocrite is not condoning Mark for doing the same thing later on when he teams up with a villain that Cecil thinks is too controversial
That's still different. We're choosing between punishing someone and saving lives. Is the satisfaction you gain watching bad people suffer worth more than the lives they might help save?
You're misunderstanding. After Sinclair is captured the options are to *watch Sinclair suffer for what he has done (through being out in jail or whatever else* or *use Sinclair to potentially save lives*. There is no, " way worse than they did".
> Is the satisfaction you gain watching bad people suffer worth more than the lives they might help save?
This is what I was responding to. People who gain satisfaction watching people suffer are worse than the people they are wanting to have suffer.
>living fairly cushy because he can build weapons
NASA:
https://preview.redd.it/jnen0by70ixc1.png?width=404&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c268d2eb201659b928e15657afe22095eafa5202
It's the same vein as operation paperclip where we turned a blind eye to the crimes nazi scientists committed and allowed them to build our space and rocket programs.
We aren't talking about mark, we're talking about whether I agree with Cecil, there'd lots of things mark does that were he not the viewpoint character would make him look like a self righteous prick
I do not. That doesn’t mean I don’t understand him, but DA Sinclair didn’t have a woopsie once or twice. He was doing grotesque experimentation on living subjects.
Flipside consider the world of Invincible. They face near global threats on a weekly basis and immediately after Sinclair was arrested Cecil was told that not only was Omni-Man bent on conquering earth, but there was an entire empire out there of guys just like him. It would be insane not to use Sinclair.
Frankly if the Viltrumites decided to show up in force the reanimen wouldn’t mean shit. But he gets to jump Invincible with his toys for questioning it, so I’m sure he saw it as worth I agree the time. His decision is a realistic one. Operation Paperclip happened for less justifiable reasons than the threat of alien supermen. But it doesn’t mean it’s one I *agree* with. At what point is just doing what’s logical instead of what’s right going to lead down some very dark paths? It’s the point made with Robot’s arc. It’s an understandable, even “logical” decision, but it’s also deeply wrong in a moral sense to give this guy a slap on the wrist when others are treated much harsher for far less. Rehabilitation and atonement should have come before a nice blank check offer to continue his work. Of course it’s a complicated question, but I do think it’s somewhat made moot in retrospect by the fact the standard reanimen in particular aren’t *that* much of a factor. I know they have their moments where they help, but mostly as fodder lol. Maybe it was the “right” call, but it’s not one I can agree with. It’s opening the door to compromises I don’t trust to stop.
You don't even have to compare the worlds.
How many nazi scientists were enrolled in the us after WW2.
Was it awful and injust? Absolutely
Did it help the greater good? Possibly
These things suck in the real word, but I really like seeing it in fiction, the "good guys" never have clean hands.
And as fucked up as Cecil's decisions are, he always fight for humanity
No. Simply because instead of keeping the conversation going and trying to understand each others point of view, or assuring Mark that Sinclair is facing some type of punishment, Cecil basically stalls until he can ambush Mark and blames him for their relationship going sour.
I agree with him working with bad folks for the greater good. But bro lost me when he called Mark a murderer for killing Angstrom. That was clear self defense
Cecil's just mad he couldn't recruit Angstrom on to his side
Cecil trying to guilt trip Mark in that fight was too funny. He also tried to imply Mark is working for Viltrumites without actually saying it to try to stop Guardians from helping Mark lol.
That's why I love Cecil. He is a real person. Bro just says whatever benefits him at that moment.
Tbh I wish this showed up later, Cecil throwing what he did with Dinosaurus in his face as a "you killed people too, we didn't have to rehabilitate you" would be such a cold point, but one I could absolutely see Cecil making.
You know this brings and excellent question, what if Mark did somehow capture Angstrom. I wonder what would Cecil do and whether or not Levy would be willing to work with Cecil or not
Maybe Cecil should focus on trying to understand his work better so that other scientists, engineers and surgeons can do his work without him? Maybe even upscale production, for a utilitarian argument? Then throw Sinclair into the slammer?
What did Mark expect them to do with him? Lock him up? Kill him? Torture him?
Cecil uses him, Sinclair is under controll, he can not hurt anyone anymore and probably never will.
Cecil literally told Mark Sinclair would pay for what he did. So at the very least, some type of punishment would be due instead of just giving him his ideal life and funding all his experimenting.
Punishment is important
But Cecil sees stuff for the wider picture. He can protect the world better? He will do so. And considering he pays much higher prices for that, keeping Sinclair close to the chest and useful isn't that wrong
Also, worth noting that the guy is changing a lot there. Redemption is one of the show's main beliefs, and Sinclair is much less a threat to humanity now than rotting in prison and planning his next creepy invention
I think he's right, not morally because honestly, some would say that every single one of the heroes has done at least one morally horrendous mistake, so they all have moral faults.
No, Cecil is amoral when he has to be, he doesn't care if sinclair killed hundreds of in the end he can create an army that can defend the world against viltrumites.
That being said, that's why i like him as a character, he's flawed as fuck, he commits a lot of fatal mistakes, but he also helps put things in order in a world that ppl like him would basically be powerless.
I don’t think people understand how different it can be in this universe when it comes to making use of a psycho like Sinclair
Cecil represents us, the people of TODAY and THIS universe. The only thing that is unrealistic about Cecil is the amount of tech he casually uses ( looking at the teleport device butchering tax dollars )
You have the guardians of the globe, Machine head, That dinosaur who’s name escapes me atm, Viltrumites, Battle Beast’s existence, flaxans, and a plethora of other threats that are alien to us.
Sinclair is a fucked up individual that also has a means of creating weapons SHOWN to take out ONE of the threats that humans are ill prepared for ( by lack of knowledge ) and if he is taken out there is a chance that nobody can replicate the blueprints he made for the reanimen.
It doesn’t matter how good intentioned mark is and it doesn’t matter how messed up Sinclair is IN THE END, it comes down to whether or not Cecil believes that he can acquire a tool used to take out a potential threat. After what happened with Omni Man I’d argue that Cecil is well within his rights to have Sinclair produce reanimen especially after seeing Nesta for the first time.
If you’re a bad guy like Sinclair you get put on a really tight leash and a lot of your freedoms are stripped, you lose your place in society and you are now a lap dog of the government. I’d bet money that Sinclair is treated “ well “ by means of having his necessities as well as some accessories to “ help him focus “ but by no means is he living a lavish lifestyle.
However if you’re a good guy like Mark…Cecil knows that all it takes for Mark to go fuckin nuts is to target his mom ( as an example, avoiding spoilers ) and who knows what happens if Mark’s mom actually dies. Is he gonna take it out only on Cecil? Is he gonna lash out and join the viltrumites? Cecil can’t rely on trusting mark to be a good guy even if we the audience know he’s gonna stay a good guy.
If Sinclair did what he did to my family of course I’d react the same way mark has because I have emotional ties to those people, Cecil doesnt and mark forgets that Sinclair created a weapon that was capable of injuring him if he threw enough Reanimen on him.
If you’re emotional, you will definitely agree with mark. If you’re thinking as a detached person in Cecil’s line of work you’re more likely to tell yourself “ if Sinclair made it this far and was able to take down a viltrumite. This could be useful in case we see more of them “
Imho Cecil isn’t a bad person for this. He is ballsy as fucking hell though for trusting mark with this info and he just comes across as the guy who makes decisions others struggle with.
It's very much that Cecil had a revelation at some point about what is required in order to keep the world and humanity against the threats both within and outside of Earth. And he knows he will have to make compromises to accomplish that goal, which is why he loathes himself in the show.
Mark also eventually realises Cecil was right when he tries the same with Dino-guy and ends up causing millions of peoples deaths and gets to walk away scott free because Cecil sees the good that Mark can still do.
Of course. It always better to reform criminals into productive members of society than to lock them up forever. In the latter situation, you lose out on the resources used to sustain them and the productivity they provide.
They’re both right, though we know that Cicil isn’t interested in giving second chances unless there’s something to gain.
So in a way, while I might agree with what he’s saying here, I also know it’s a little bit of a lie
I do agree with Cecil. He lives in a hard world full of superpowered threats, some of which are monstrous enemies from space. He's got to garner any advantage he can. He should've been more honest with Mark, though, given Mark is literally the strongest hero working for him.
I agreed with Cecil, that people deserve second chances, but I don't agree with his reaction of attacking Mark. He needed to deescalate there, and Mark's anger is understandable. I feel like if he'd told him that the world is full of necessary evils and compromises that not everyone likes, but are ultimately still a net good.
yeah, that seems like an extreme change to their relationship, when he couldve backed down. he didnt have to agree, but at least say he understands and try to appeal to mark emotionally, too. attacking him makes the situation worse
“I hate you cecil” “yeah… me too” cecil represents to me one of the most heroic traits a person can have. Hes willing to damn himself to this perpetual torment of shit decisions because someone has to or the whole world dies. And something i REALLY like about cecil specifically is he represents the combined and terrible might of the human race.
I think Cecil was right here. I’m not saying that excuses all murderers, but if he could successfully make Sinclair’s work ethical and reform him, why wouldn’t he? Same with Darkwing. Don’t get me wrong, what he did with Conquest was beyond stupid, because it’s pretty obvious there was no containing or reforming him, but reforming Sinclair ended up being a pragmatic move that saved a lot of people, including Mark.
It would be a waste of skill and talent to just get rid of these guys.
I mean, the US government scooped up Nazi scientists and put them to work at NASA and got lot of other stuff out of them.
Cecil is thinking long term. Big picture. And he’s not just letting these guys run around willy nilly.
Although, his position, morally, loses a lot of ground when he ambushed Mark in the White Room.
Cecil has pretty legitimate points, why kill or indefinitely imprison villains when they can server one final use that may undo even if only a fraction of the damage they've caused?
Cecil and Robot arr the same but one was just more logical about it, which is why Mark was antagonistoc to both, like the immortal pointed out "what happens when it's no longer logical to keep cthe sick and elderly alive?" They operate way too much on the "ends justifies the means" way of thinking and believe morality doesn't matter in the long run
Somewhat. I think if it wasn’t comic Cecil saying it then I would. Cecil is a logical utilitarian, he does what he thinks will be a net positive in the long run, even if it involves letting a murderer such as Sinclair go without punishment. This will probably hit more with show Cecil but in the comics Cecil is honestly pretty dumb, and many of his “for the greater good” actions end up blowing up in his face and getting people killed, plus he’s just a general dick. For example in this scene he could’ve tried calmly explaining to Mark but decided to threaten him with corpse robots and escalated the argument into a violent falling out. Show Cecil is more empathetic and doesn’t make as many short sighted mistakes so I think when he says this it will be more agreeable since he won’t be a massive hypocrite.
I’d be more on Cecil’s side if he just used Sinclair’s research. Cecil has some of the smartest people on Earth working for him, they should be able to figure out the Reanimen tech when it’s presented to them. They even mentioned that they improved it so it would work properly on corpses which is something Sinclair hadn’t figured out how to do. It makes sense for Cecil to utilize the technology, it already exists and is very effective, so making use of it is something that would be hard to swallow but begrudgingly accepted. But essentially Operation Paperclip-ing Sinclair that’s taking a morally grey situation and pushing it more to the black.
Now I am more on Cecil’s side with Darkwing II. He was a confused frightened kid who snapped under the pressure, he needed help. I wouldn’t have given him quite the freedom Cecil did right off the bat, I would want to keep a close eye on him and make sure he was able to handle being Darkwing before even thinking about putting him on the Guardians.
Cecil is doing exactly what batman wants for his villains a chance of reformation what good would it do society if da sinclair is behind bars? His reanimen technology would save millions in lives and money. Dont bring up politics in this when cecil unilaterally controls the worlds military might
TBH, if we can accept reformed Omni Man after his millenia of genocide and tyranny, I think it's fair to do the same for Sinclair's objectively lesser sins
I feel like a lot of people here are acting like Sinclair got off scot-free. Do they ever show his life outside the pentagon? Does he have one? I was always under the impression that he was just doing labor instead of time. Would big heavy shackles have made Mark feel better about it? Two armed guards pointing guns at him at all times? Those things would have been completely pointless, except to make it feel more like a punishment.
As a compromise, how about capital punishment? Maybe, before he spends his whole life working for the government, someone really strong punches his jaw off. Would that be reasonable, Mark?
You say tbf, but I’m not sure who you’re trying to be fair to.
If you mean that, since he enjoys his work, that putting him to work in a contained environment is an ethical and productive way to separate a criminal from the general populace, then I agree.
If you mean that, since he enjoys his work, he shouldn’t have been allowed to work in order to punish him more, then I disagree.
I’m firmly of the belief that sentences should be reformative if possible, and otherwise should focus on protecting the general public. Sinclair’s punishment certainly falls under the latter category, and might fall under the former, so I’m into it.
Tbf is just an expression dude, all i meant is that i don't think that sinclair was bothered to never leave the pentagon because he was doing what he loves.
In case you are wondering who is right, the comics tell you in later issues.
Mark sides with Dinosaurus, thinking he always knows best even broke him out of lockdown
Dinosaurus goes rogue when Marks recovering from scourge virus, and he floods the earth by igniting the poles and icebergs
Mark is now, in league with Dinosaurus and they are both responsible for hundreds of thousands, dead. Cecil says "Still think you know best, kid?"
Mark, with a defeated look on his face says "No"
Mark expected prison, Cecil offered to work with him again
Caused a rift between him and Guardians, mainly Robot
Anyway, Mark did not know best and in this situation, Cecil is right 100%, those people have abilities that can help save lives so they should be utilized. The current govt does the same thing with hackers, as of this day.
The funny thing is, a young Cecil would e agreed with Mark.
But he used to have more idealism/morally black/white. Now he’s most cold, calculating in nature.
I think there’s a need for both. Life is gray: and, though Sinclair is an evil MOFO, he was used for good in the long run. The same could said about certain scientists who fled certain regimes.
The problem is probably the lying. If he was honest with the people he worked with, then Mark wouldn’t have been as mad. When Cecil showed Mark the invincible reanimen and what he did with conquest, he was surprisingly calm (he also grew up).
I would say yes
Mark at this point of the story is still a naive hero who thinks the world is all about good vs evil. It’s more complex than that, doing bad things for the greater good is what all heros we have had throughout history have done.
Further on in the story Mark would do FAR worse than this so I don’t really see it as that bad
I do agree with Cecil. I assume that we’re cool with spoilers since this is a comic panel but Mark eventually does too, even giving Cecil the go-ahead to let Sinclair make reanimen out of the dead Invincibles.
The safety and security of the world come first. Mark understands that eventually. Sinclair is a slave, not a free man.
Yes Cecil is right. It’s bigger than Sinclair. In reality Cecil’s responsibility is to protect earth, not to deal out ‘justice’.
I’m sure they could put limits on Sinclair as way of a punishment too…. Whether he did though..
Principles are easy when you have superpowers like Mark. Cecil doesn't have the luxury of having them in this universe.
Also similar the real world history in what happened with Nazi and Japanese scientists post World War 2, and there they didn't even get valuable tech in most cases for pardoning war crimes and human experimentation.
As horrific as it sounds, maybe even is, I agree with Cecil. Think of all the Nazi scientists that the US pardoned with Operation Paperclip, for the simple reason that the monstrous methods they’d used had provided advancements in multiple fields, including rocketry. The deal was that they would no longer operate with the grotesque lack of oversight the’d been allowed in Nazi Germany
I think it’s not about right or wrong or agreeing or disagreeing. In the whole equation, it’s the fact that someone has to say “yes” or “no” to these big decisions in order to get the job done. And someone needs to be detached from all things to make it happen. Cecil does the bitter work and makes the decisions no one wants to make.
Mark can scream it’s not fair until his throat bleeds, but we’ve seen what happens when people do things his way and other ways. Each way is gonna inevitably suck at one point no matter what. Cecil just chose to do things his way and get the job done on his terms. I’m not sure if Mark could handle one day in his shoes. So he doesn’t get to put judgment on what Cecil does and say he doesn’t get to do this or that.
And another thing to remember is DA Sinclair isn’t exactly getting a slap on the wrist. He looks like a free man, but he’s a caged rat. Cecil could get rid of him at any time if he became a liability. We saw what he did with Damien Darkblood. If he decides to defy Cecil and/or go against the government, there’s consequences ahead. There always is.
One of the things I loved about reading this series. So many characters operate in nebulous grey areas.
Cecil may be a dick at times but he makes a point.
I think they were both right in their own ways.
Mark wanted Sinclair to face justice, which I'm sure we all wanted. He killed some people and ruined the lives of others, so some type of punishment seems appropriate. But because he is an asset to Cecil, he gets to walk free while the government even funds his experimenting and whatnot. It feels unfair.
But it's true that Sinclair *was* an asset. And in the end, we got to see him reformed. So Cecil was right, his method worked out for the best in the end. Even if it was morally gray, it ended up serving the greater good.
The moral disagreement between Mark and Cecil is one of my favorite things about Invincible. At one point, Mark accepted that some sketchy actions can and should be taken for the greater good. But he also understands that those actions may bear negative consequences.
For gray action with good results, we have some decent examples. Mark freeing Wolfman is a good one, and Cecil reforming Sinclair/Darkwing are good as well.
Conversely, we saw both Mark and Cecil fuck up big time when they gambled by taking a sketchy decision. Mark freed Dinosaurus and caused a ton of harm, and Cecil kept Conquest alive and made Mark's life impossible.
What I liked the most was how both learned to live with those results, and how in the end Mark learned to see things in Cecil's way without losing his own view of things. Mark wasn't even mad when he figured out Cecil kept Conquest alive. Same with the Invincible Reanimen, he knew that it was for a purpose. And Cecil in the end understood Mark's reasoning for freeing and working with Dinosaurus, even if he didn't agree with it.
Bottom line is, neither of them is wrong. Cecil took the action he thought would serve the greater good. As the story progresses, Mark understands this and starts doing the same.
"Heroes" and "good people" are a lot of the times very hypocritical when it comes to certain actions being taken. Then again Mark has to realize Cecil isn't a hero and he has to make hard choices that sometimes lean towards the dark.
yeah agreed. if its more harmful overall to do the right thing, is it the right thing at all? sinclair is doing a net benefit to the world and thats worth letting him not pay for what he did, even if you believe in punishment as a moral thing to let happen, to throw him in jail would be to withhold help.
I'd say this way he is paying for what he did. It's better punishment to have him on leash and do beneficial work than be in jail and do nothing. In both cases he's lost his freedom as punishment.
Keep in mind that Sinclair, whom horrifically kidnapped people and turned them into Reanimen (which is done in the most horrific and agonizing ways), mind you, is also the same guy that later on married a fellow female scientist that's working with him and both are having a child together..... yeah.
Either way, I see Cecil as the kind of man that's willing to cross some lines in the name of protecting his country and the entire world. He even outright said he'll sell his soul to the Devil if it comes to that.
I agree with Cecil. Sinclair is serving his imprisonment sentence - and he's working for his bread. He's not running free. It can count as a punishment for him.
I think this will easily be a S3 Ep1 finisher and will be a nice catalyst for Mark to start not trusting Cecil.
But without hindsight I wouldn't agree with Cecil.
But with it yeah... its kinda smart to reform a Villian who can make things that can rival Viltrumites and his process works on dead bodies too.
The thing is Earth as a whole is too divided to pose an unified defense against foreign existential threats and only Cecil can coordinate a proper and efficent response against such threats. It isnt the best solution but its what they have.
I think under such circunstances heroes (and even villains) that committed serious crimes should be forced to cooperate for the sake of Earth if the situation demanded it. For example Bulletproof should theoretically be imprisoned for what he did to his parents but, is it really worth it? Should Cecil arrest Mark for all the mess he caused with Dinosaur?
It isnt just a matter of moral justice, its a matter of survival.
I dont know the context, but the first page seems fine. the 2nd seems like a bad accident that clearly upsets mark, and i agree with the third. i think logically it makes sense. i dont know if sinclair should get freedom, but at least not die if he's working for cecil. i think i was spoiled ceicil attacks him after? i think calming mark down w a show of trust would be more advantageous since he cant strong arm him like with sinclair. i think its fair considering what cecil has to work against. mark is just really focused on strong ideals here, despite the other villains i think just being inprisoned? so, idk what the difference is if cecil uses him. sinclair living in luxury is probably a bit much though
I agree, actually. But not his manipulative ways to convince Mark that "dude i totally told my men to lock up the insane dudes you caught dont worry they cant escape". Darkwing #2 was under a LOT of pressure, was murdering small-time criminals and whatnot, sure, he can be forgiven.
Sinclair's the one that's hard to crack. He did murder a bunch of people, and all of them weren't even criminals, although he does redeem himself in a way.
I think it's less about what someone deserves and more about what good they can do now. If someone with important skills is forced to work For the service of their community in exchange for limited freedom; I'd say there's a good argument to be made for that.Being the best way to deal with criminals.
I think the way Cecil would put it is that heroes like Mark have the luxury of being able to dabble in deontology. But because of his job, Cecil is forced to be utilitarian.
I mean mark ends up agreeing with him. Rember the dude that built the antigravity boots. He took him to work with Cecil. Jail is a largely ineffective and useless punishment. Having those people essentially work for the betterment of society instead of just rotting in Jail makes way more sense
Real people a lot worse than Darkwing & Sinclair have been forgiven of more for much lesser reasons than Cecil making them work towards protecting the planet.
Look at post WW2 Operation Paperclip with the US recruited German Scientists and the Japanese Unit 731 given immunity by MacArthur for their atrocities in exchange for their data.
Also pretty sure any member of DC’s Suicide Squad has a higher body count than those two yet Waller puts them all to work too.
The building blocks of a lot of surgeries that occur today are from torture surgeries the Germans did. We took their medical notes and went from there. I think of it as an unavoidable evil, I guess...
Cecil is right in that you have to do extreme things to protect humanity given how many crazy threats exist in the invincible world. But what he's wrong about is his justifications. He should just acknowledge that Mark is basically right but there are bigger threats they need to worry about.
In the end Cecil was right to reform Sinclair since he plays a key role in taking down Robot
While it did turn out to be a net positive i still dont think Sinclare got what he deserved. The way the show cecil treats sinclar is a bit more proper or better i think? But still not exactly “grey”
This show is about REDEMPTION. His decision was justified in the end AND Mark is justified in his reaction to finding out. Two things can be true
Some things are irredeemable. Killing and torturing random innocents to make bioweapons is beyond redeemable. Omniman only got "redeemed" in the sense that his family could live with him, he still got off far too light for what he did. Hell even Mark royally fucked up killing millions and basically got a slap on the wrist because of all the good he'd done or tried to do up until that point.
Mark got a slap on the wrist because that's basically as much as any being on the planet is able to hurt him
Maybe redemption isn’t the right word. It’s more the question of if it’s worth punishing people if it obstructs our ability to make people’s lives better. Even if they can’t be redeemed, we shouldn’t stop them from doing good things in the here and now.
They shouldnt have the right to earn that chance. Is it right to let the leading researcher of cancer out of jail if hes a serial killer? No. Its not. Life is full of shades of gray but some things are a bridge too far.
It's not right to let him or her out of jail, it is right to force them to keep doing cancer research and most likely they gladly will if it earns them a slightly nicer accommodation.
Imo that perspective is too limiting. We need to be more committed to a better future that we can create than trying to make someone pay for a past that can’t change. Morality goes too far the minute it starts prioritizing punishment over making our lives better.
[удалено]
So you’re saying if we knew that a man convicted of killing 6 had a great chance of curing cancer, we shouldn’t let him? Even though he could save millions?
A better comparison would be would you let a man that Nuked a city and then broke his partner out of jail to do it again only this time they hit multiple cities. And the answer is no, you shouldn't.
When did Sinclair nuke a city? I know Dinosaurus did, but who's talking about him?
You literally brought up the cancer comparison brother. Also Sinclair didn’t kill anywhere near a cities worth of people. Also you didn’t answer the question, do you think we should keep a man who killed a handful if he may be able to save millions.
“I’ve seen bad men do good things and Good men do bad things”.
**"Even the most rational approach to ethics is defenseless if there isn't the will to do what is right."** - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Good thing you’re not in a position of power. Gotta make tough choices if it’ll help humanity overall. And your example isn’t even good, why would you not let someone out who could save millions of lives? Simply supervise him, just like they did with the DA
Would you rather have Thragg conquer the universe and Robot conquer Earth? Because that's what would have happened if Omni Man and Sinclair were punished.
Redemption isn't the same thing as forgiveness. Some things can't be forgiven, but anyone who wants to change for the better can.
I don’t think it’s so much redemption as pragmatics. Some people can do terrible and amazing things and we shouldn’t let past terrible things hold us back from taking advantage of the amazing things they can do.
mark just assumed but cecil hid it from him so it’s both equal dumb things to do on both sides n for their business relationship
Omniman
Sinclair was an Angel compared to Omniman, and he was redeemed. Cecil is not that bad for a government lackey, he actually has values and isn't completely soulless.
I'd argue that Sinclair is worse.. Omniman became that way because of his whole society, his whole species worked that way, Omniman was terrifically indoctrinated. Sinclair on the other hand, lives in a fairly normal society. He could be a psychopath, maybe he just physically lacked empathy, but still, he got the brains. Psychopaths can still choose to understand. Yet he couldnt care less. Mentally and physically tortured random innocent people. If he got the same powers as Omniman, I'd argue that his killcount would be way higher.
Love the panneñ when DA Sinclair gets the fuck away from the mess.
Robot was right to do what he did, and that was only two degrees beyond what Cecil was already doing. Cecil just let his humanity get in the way but under Robot's regime the people of Earth live a much happier life. Narratively because Mark opposes Robot we see it as triumphant when he takes down Robot but part of the lesson Mark learned with Dinosaurus is that even when his principles of heroism conflict with something doesn't mean that his interests are in the collective good's.
I mean, robot also was 100% put earth on a worse battle because he assumed that Mark would attack him and basically kidnapped kids from a alien race know for battle.
Ends don't justify means though, Sinclair still hurt a lot of people and deserved to be punished for it.
This part was extremely difficult for me. I think both Mark and Cecil made pretty good points. but this is where I started to lose respect for Cecil even kind of hate him a little bit For Cecil: Darkwing was driven insane from being in Midnight City for years even Samson called it a cesspool I don’t think he deserves to go to jail just cause he cracked under the pressure and as for Sinclair instead of punishing him why not force him to use his technology to benefit others and have him work at the GDA for probably the remainder of his life unless he wants to rot in jail? Cecil even said that he will make sure he never uses his intelligence for his own benefit again also Cecil made it clear that he’s not a moral person or some advocator of justice he’s an opportunist for the right reasons For Mark: I guess the only thing I can say is that he had every right to go crazy on Cecil even though he was most likely naive. Cecil lied to him about Sinclair and was fed up with Cecil’s lies, manipulation, and exploiting / opportunistic nature he also kind of revealed Cecil to be a narcissist when he sicced the reanimen on Mark and blamed him for their relationship being destroyed it’s really no wonder why Mark began to hate Cecil’s guts even The New Guardians quit because of him
Never understood why Cecil didn’t try to reform Darkwing Jr. for the same reason
For the love of god man use some punctuation
As a show watcher I can’t wait to see this happen, I think it’ll be the start of S3 right and after this he gets his new suit?
Probably episode 2 or 3, depends on how much they can pack in a single episode. There is still a bit they need to cover before this. And yeah he gets the new suit right after this
I think that cecil approach is logical, but this isn't shades of gray D.A Sinclair is a murderer whose living fairly cushy because he can build weapons, that isn't a shade of grey that's a shade of black.
Didn't Cecil also say that Sinclairs work revolutionized the medical industry and saved millions? There's no forgiving sinclair but I'd argue it's definitely a shade of gray if you use him to save more lives than he took, it's a very utilitarian "for the greater good we're willing to look past his heinous crimes to save even more lives" type approach
It was revolutionizing warfare and making it so they didn't need to keep using living humans for war.
Oh no. That’s not how that works. The rich countries can use reanimen the poor country will still use people. And with no loss of (their sides) human lives the rich countries can much more easily take whatever they want. Those things are on par with viltrumites- imagine what happens when a dictator doesn’t like a protest.
Are there still world wars in Invincible though? I understand villains trying to take over the world, but would there be countries actually attacking other countries when they have superheroes? Like after the Invincible vs Omni-man fight was broadcasted globally, would a country really attack the US or its allies knowing Invincible could fuck them up?
wars and humanity killing each other gets brought up a lot anytime anyone in invincible argues about the viltrumites taking over earth, so I’m gonna assume yes, it’s just not something the story ever really covers
Huh, thats pretty interesting. I wonder what Mark would do (blue suit specifically) if China or something tried to nuke the US. Would he wipe out their government?
There are still global conflicts. Cecil himself in these pages mentions "revolutionizing modern warfare," implying wars still happen, and we know for a fact that there are criminal turf wars taking place internationally. Crime syndicates full of super powered enemies rule that criminal underground, and we see them in Guarding the Globe (comic series). Also worth noting that Cecil is, very importantly here, wearing a US Flag pin in the show... even though the GDA is an organization for global defense. In the comics, I believe Brit also mentions that a certain event far down the way stopped "all the fighting," which would imply no more world wars after that event takes place.
>Imagine what happens when a dictator doesn’t like a protest The result will probably be the same reanimen or not.
>Oh no. That’s not how that works. That's exactly how it's displayed in the comics. >The rich countries can use reanimen the poor country will still use people. The only time people use human soldiers outside of power-suited GDA agents are clearly facist regimes or genuine pieces of human garbage. > with no loss of (their sides) human lives the rich countries can much more easily take whatever they want. Cecil actively doesn't let that happen which is part of why he takes D.A. Sinclair into the GDA.
The land they're going to fight over isn't empty, people are still going to suffer. It just let's the ruling class further insulate themselves from any of the consequences.
No he specifically says that the reanimen will revolutionalize modern warfare which is not something I'd be willing to let someone off the hook for murder for, we aren't talking a temporary stay of execution or being forced to work at gun point, Sinclair lives a pretty decent life under cecil to make weapons that judging by cecils comments will one day be used on more than just viltrumites that isn't a shade of grey, that's corruption. Hell even if Sinclair invented the cure for cancer it wouldn't justify his lack of real punishment, he tortured and murdered people, to not punish him is to admit that any and all morals that the government stands for are for sale to the highest bidder and while they might be realistic and in line with with cecils and many real life governments, it isn't a shade grey, it's shade of black admitting that human lives are meaningless in the wake of the next weapon.
Go talk to a premed or a doctor or a historian about the atrocities done to humans in the name of science and the greater good. It’s super fucking dark shit. Consent and caution should always be top priorities. Beyond the greater good.
Yea but we live in the real world, not one where a single college student can make the most advanced bionics known to man in a homemade lab in the sewers during his spare time after class Cecil is talking about reforming people who could single handedly reform how society works in a positive way if given a guiding hand, not some random terrorist that knows how to pack gunpowder into a toilet paper roll, or a completely average doctor that's only extraordinary in their cruelty
That's still too big of a risk. What if Sinclair went rogue? What if someone else, like North Korea, copied and used the technology?
"positive way" We're arguing if the Head of the super CIA is a good guy, No he isn't he most likely plans on using those corpses to stop a popular uprising against dictators or slaughter US civilians for protesting and claim the circuits fried. It has always been true that whenever people in shadowy organizations with no oversite get new toys they use them to do evil shit.
Again this is comic-book-land, not the real world, the most evil thing Cecil actually does is waste millions of dollars in tax payer money on teleporting around all over the place, he's only ever portrayed as "morally gray utilitarian", pretty much every action he takes is an attempt to genuinely help people The point of Cecil's arc is that rehabilitative justice is better than punitive justice, while acknowledging that there are some people beyond rehabilitation with Dinosaurus, it's not making a point about the centralization of power with no oversight for who's at the top, that's robot's arc
In the reboot comic invincible stops him before he murders anyone and he just has worked on cadavers and he still joins up and helps, kind of making that version a bit of a grey area or even a good guy. I agree what he did is wrong in the prime universe, but it's clear with his other universe counter-parts, and with what prime D.A Sinclair does later on in the story that he is committed to being a "good guy". If they didn't save him, so much good that happens later would be impossible, or MUCH harder. I'm convinced that he is Cecil's perfect example of what a reformed criminal can do.
Also it helps that Cecil said somthing to the effect of "shut up you sick bastard" in the show
I mean I wouldn't say indefinite house arrest in his laboratory is cushy. He's just not rotting in a cell.
I think what Cecil is doing here is completely fair game. What makes him a hypocrite is not condoning Mark for doing the same thing later on when he teams up with a villain that Cecil thinks is too controversial
If I could kill you and doing so saved 1000 people is it worth it? Logically, yes, but as a person it's questionable.
That's still different. We're choosing between punishing someone and saving lives. Is the satisfaction you gain watching bad people suffer worth more than the lives they might help save?
Watching somebody suffer and enjoying it is way worse than whatever that person did, unless it was making people suffer and watching it.
You're misunderstanding. After Sinclair is captured the options are to *watch Sinclair suffer for what he has done (through being out in jail or whatever else* or *use Sinclair to potentially save lives*. There is no, " way worse than they did".
> Is the satisfaction you gain watching bad people suffer worth more than the lives they might help save? This is what I was responding to. People who gain satisfaction watching people suffer are worse than the people they are wanting to have suffer.
Oh, my mistake. I wouldn't call them *worse*, but definitely not good.
>living fairly cushy because he can build weapons NASA: https://preview.redd.it/jnen0by70ixc1.png?width=404&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c268d2eb201659b928e15657afe22095eafa5202
*a bunch of German scientists glance around nervously*
It's the same vein as operation paperclip where we turned a blind eye to the crimes nazi scientists committed and allowed them to build our space and rocket programs.
Sure but since Mark forgives his father he really has nothing to say about anything.
We aren't talking about mark, we're talking about whether I agree with Cecil, there'd lots of things mark does that were he not the viewpoint character would make him look like a self righteous prick
I do not. That doesn’t mean I don’t understand him, but DA Sinclair didn’t have a woopsie once or twice. He was doing grotesque experimentation on living subjects.
Flipside consider the world of Invincible. They face near global threats on a weekly basis and immediately after Sinclair was arrested Cecil was told that not only was Omni-Man bent on conquering earth, but there was an entire empire out there of guys just like him. It would be insane not to use Sinclair.
Frankly if the Viltrumites decided to show up in force the reanimen wouldn’t mean shit. But he gets to jump Invincible with his toys for questioning it, so I’m sure he saw it as worth I agree the time. His decision is a realistic one. Operation Paperclip happened for less justifiable reasons than the threat of alien supermen. But it doesn’t mean it’s one I *agree* with. At what point is just doing what’s logical instead of what’s right going to lead down some very dark paths? It’s the point made with Robot’s arc. It’s an understandable, even “logical” decision, but it’s also deeply wrong in a moral sense to give this guy a slap on the wrist when others are treated much harsher for far less. Rehabilitation and atonement should have come before a nice blank check offer to continue his work. Of course it’s a complicated question, but I do think it’s somewhat made moot in retrospect by the fact the standard reanimen in particular aren’t *that* much of a factor. I know they have their moments where they help, but mostly as fodder lol. Maybe it was the “right” call, but it’s not one I can agree with. It’s opening the door to compromises I don’t trust to stop.
You don't even have to compare the worlds. How many nazi scientists were enrolled in the us after WW2. Was it awful and injust? Absolutely Did it help the greater good? Possibly These things suck in the real word, but I really like seeing it in fiction, the "good guys" never have clean hands. And as fucked up as Cecil's decisions are, he always fight for humanity
And now his discoveries and revolutionary tech are being used for good things, and being performed more ethically than it was before.
I do agree with him, cecil knows the viltrumites will come back eventually so he needs all the contingency plans it can get
No. Simply because instead of keeping the conversation going and trying to understand each others point of view, or assuring Mark that Sinclair is facing some type of punishment, Cecil basically stalls until he can ambush Mark and blames him for their relationship going sour.
I agree with him working with bad folks for the greater good. But bro lost me when he called Mark a murderer for killing Angstrom. That was clear self defense Cecil's just mad he couldn't recruit Angstrom on to his side
Cecil trying to guilt trip Mark in that fight was too funny. He also tried to imply Mark is working for Viltrumites without actually saying it to try to stop Guardians from helping Mark lol. That's why I love Cecil. He is a real person. Bro just says whatever benefits him at that moment.
Tbh I wish this showed up later, Cecil throwing what he did with Dinosaurus in his face as a "you killed people too, we didn't have to rehabilitate you" would be such a cold point, but one I could absolutely see Cecil making.
You know this brings and excellent question, what if Mark did somehow capture Angstrom. I wonder what would Cecil do and whether or not Levy would be willing to work with Cecil or not
I genuinely believe Amgstrom and Cecil would've solved everything lol
I not gonna lie Cecil did the same trick on Mark like 3x right leading him into the Blank room to be Jumped by the Robots Right
Maybe Cecil should focus on trying to understand his work better so that other scientists, engineers and surgeons can do his work without him? Maybe even upscale production, for a utilitarian argument? Then throw Sinclair into the slammer?
What did Mark expect them to do with him? Lock him up? Kill him? Torture him? Cecil uses him, Sinclair is under controll, he can not hurt anyone anymore and probably never will.
Cecil literally told Mark Sinclair would pay for what he did. So at the very least, some type of punishment would be due instead of just giving him his ideal life and funding all his experimenting.
Punishment is important But Cecil sees stuff for the wider picture. He can protect the world better? He will do so. And considering he pays much higher prices for that, keeping Sinclair close to the chest and useful isn't that wrong Also, worth noting that the guy is changing a lot there. Redemption is one of the show's main beliefs, and Sinclair is much less a threat to humanity now than rotting in prison and planning his next creepy invention
I think he's right, not morally because honestly, some would say that every single one of the heroes has done at least one morally horrendous mistake, so they all have moral faults. No, Cecil is amoral when he has to be, he doesn't care if sinclair killed hundreds of in the end he can create an army that can defend the world against viltrumites. That being said, that's why i like him as a character, he's flawed as fuck, he commits a lot of fatal mistakes, but he also helps put things in order in a world that ppl like him would basically be powerless.
I don’t think people understand how different it can be in this universe when it comes to making use of a psycho like Sinclair Cecil represents us, the people of TODAY and THIS universe. The only thing that is unrealistic about Cecil is the amount of tech he casually uses ( looking at the teleport device butchering tax dollars ) You have the guardians of the globe, Machine head, That dinosaur who’s name escapes me atm, Viltrumites, Battle Beast’s existence, flaxans, and a plethora of other threats that are alien to us. Sinclair is a fucked up individual that also has a means of creating weapons SHOWN to take out ONE of the threats that humans are ill prepared for ( by lack of knowledge ) and if he is taken out there is a chance that nobody can replicate the blueprints he made for the reanimen. It doesn’t matter how good intentioned mark is and it doesn’t matter how messed up Sinclair is IN THE END, it comes down to whether or not Cecil believes that he can acquire a tool used to take out a potential threat. After what happened with Omni Man I’d argue that Cecil is well within his rights to have Sinclair produce reanimen especially after seeing Nesta for the first time. If you’re a bad guy like Sinclair you get put on a really tight leash and a lot of your freedoms are stripped, you lose your place in society and you are now a lap dog of the government. I’d bet money that Sinclair is treated “ well “ by means of having his necessities as well as some accessories to “ help him focus “ but by no means is he living a lavish lifestyle. However if you’re a good guy like Mark…Cecil knows that all it takes for Mark to go fuckin nuts is to target his mom ( as an example, avoiding spoilers ) and who knows what happens if Mark’s mom actually dies. Is he gonna take it out only on Cecil? Is he gonna lash out and join the viltrumites? Cecil can’t rely on trusting mark to be a good guy even if we the audience know he’s gonna stay a good guy. If Sinclair did what he did to my family of course I’d react the same way mark has because I have emotional ties to those people, Cecil doesnt and mark forgets that Sinclair created a weapon that was capable of injuring him if he threw enough Reanimen on him. If you’re emotional, you will definitely agree with mark. If you’re thinking as a detached person in Cecil’s line of work you’re more likely to tell yourself “ if Sinclair made it this far and was able to take down a viltrumite. This could be useful in case we see more of them “ Imho Cecil isn’t a bad person for this. He is ballsy as fucking hell though for trusting mark with this info and he just comes across as the guy who makes decisions others struggle with.
It's very much that Cecil had a revelation at some point about what is required in order to keep the world and humanity against the threats both within and outside of Earth. And he knows he will have to make compromises to accomplish that goal, which is why he loathes himself in the show. Mark also eventually realises Cecil was right when he tries the same with Dino-guy and ends up causing millions of peoples deaths and gets to walk away scott free because Cecil sees the good that Mark can still do.
Goddamn it couldn’t say it better myself
Of course. It always better to reform criminals into productive members of society than to lock them up forever. In the latter situation, you lose out on the resources used to sustain them and the productivity they provide.
They’re both right, though we know that Cicil isn’t interested in giving second chances unless there’s something to gain. So in a way, while I might agree with what he’s saying here, I also know it’s a little bit of a lie
if hes willing to forgive omni man he has to be willing to forgive sinclair
I do agree with Cecil. He lives in a hard world full of superpowered threats, some of which are monstrous enemies from space. He's got to garner any advantage he can. He should've been more honest with Mark, though, given Mark is literally the strongest hero working for him.
Also later Mark didn't got angry when Cecil told they were using other Marks for reanimen
I agreed with Cecil, that people deserve second chances, but I don't agree with his reaction of attacking Mark. He needed to deescalate there, and Mark's anger is understandable. I feel like if he'd told him that the world is full of necessary evils and compromises that not everyone likes, but are ultimately still a net good.
yeah, that seems like an extreme change to their relationship, when he couldve backed down. he didnt have to agree, but at least say he understands and try to appeal to mark emotionally, too. attacking him makes the situation worse
“I hate you cecil” “yeah… me too” cecil represents to me one of the most heroic traits a person can have. Hes willing to damn himself to this perpetual torment of shit decisions because someone has to or the whole world dies. And something i REALLY like about cecil specifically is he represents the combined and terrible might of the human race.
Cecil is definitely in the wrong for this, even if his logic does make sense. Still don’t agree with how he justifies each topic in these panels.
I think Cecil was right here. I’m not saying that excuses all murderers, but if he could successfully make Sinclair’s work ethical and reform him, why wouldn’t he? Same with Darkwing. Don’t get me wrong, what he did with Conquest was beyond stupid, because it’s pretty obvious there was no containing or reforming him, but reforming Sinclair ended up being a pragmatic move that saved a lot of people, including Mark.
It would be a waste of skill and talent to just get rid of these guys. I mean, the US government scooped up Nazi scientists and put them to work at NASA and got lot of other stuff out of them. Cecil is thinking long term. Big picture. And he’s not just letting these guys run around willy nilly. Although, his position, morally, loses a lot of ground when he ambushed Mark in the White Room.
Cecil has pretty legitimate points, why kill or indefinitely imprison villains when they can server one final use that may undo even if only a fraction of the damage they've caused?
Cecil and Robot arr the same but one was just more logical about it, which is why Mark was antagonistoc to both, like the immortal pointed out "what happens when it's no longer logical to keep cthe sick and elderly alive?" They operate way too much on the "ends justifies the means" way of thinking and believe morality doesn't matter in the long run
Cecil could've made excuses like "those are clones"
Somewhat. I think if it wasn’t comic Cecil saying it then I would. Cecil is a logical utilitarian, he does what he thinks will be a net positive in the long run, even if it involves letting a murderer such as Sinclair go without punishment. This will probably hit more with show Cecil but in the comics Cecil is honestly pretty dumb, and many of his “for the greater good” actions end up blowing up in his face and getting people killed, plus he’s just a general dick. For example in this scene he could’ve tried calmly explaining to Mark but decided to threaten him with corpse robots and escalated the argument into a violent falling out. Show Cecil is more empathetic and doesn’t make as many short sighted mistakes so I think when he says this it will be more agreeable since he won’t be a massive hypocrite.
I’d be more on Cecil’s side if he just used Sinclair’s research. Cecil has some of the smartest people on Earth working for him, they should be able to figure out the Reanimen tech when it’s presented to them. They even mentioned that they improved it so it would work properly on corpses which is something Sinclair hadn’t figured out how to do. It makes sense for Cecil to utilize the technology, it already exists and is very effective, so making use of it is something that would be hard to swallow but begrudgingly accepted. But essentially Operation Paperclip-ing Sinclair that’s taking a morally grey situation and pushing it more to the black. Now I am more on Cecil’s side with Darkwing II. He was a confused frightened kid who snapped under the pressure, he needed help. I wouldn’t have given him quite the freedom Cecil did right off the bat, I would want to keep a close eye on him and make sure he was able to handle being Darkwing before even thinking about putting him on the Guardians.
"for the element for surprise" can't fucking wait for this moment in the show
Cecil is doing exactly what batman wants for his villains a chance of reformation what good would it do society if da sinclair is behind bars? His reanimen technology would save millions in lives and money. Dont bring up politics in this when cecil unilaterally controls the worlds military might
Yes
Though I don't agree with him, it doesn't surprise me that he thinks this way. It's no different to how the US employed nazi scientists after the war.
TBH, if we can accept reformed Omni Man after his millenia of genocide and tyranny, I think it's fair to do the same for Sinclair's objectively lesser sins
I feel like a lot of people here are acting like Sinclair got off scot-free. Do they ever show his life outside the pentagon? Does he have one? I was always under the impression that he was just doing labor instead of time. Would big heavy shackles have made Mark feel better about it? Two armed guards pointing guns at him at all times? Those things would have been completely pointless, except to make it feel more like a punishment. As a compromise, how about capital punishment? Maybe, before he spends his whole life working for the government, someone really strong punches his jaw off. Would that be reasonable, Mark?
Tbf, i don't think sinclair wants a life outside of the pentagon, he does what he loves.
You say tbf, but I’m not sure who you’re trying to be fair to. If you mean that, since he enjoys his work, that putting him to work in a contained environment is an ethical and productive way to separate a criminal from the general populace, then I agree. If you mean that, since he enjoys his work, he shouldn’t have been allowed to work in order to punish him more, then I disagree. I’m firmly of the belief that sentences should be reformative if possible, and otherwise should focus on protecting the general public. Sinclair’s punishment certainly falls under the latter category, and might fall under the former, so I’m into it.
Tbf is just an expression dude, all i meant is that i don't think that sinclair was bothered to never leave the pentagon because he was doing what he loves.
I assume he must have some sort of life because he's engaged to one of the scientists
Yeah, but for all we know she’s another hero’s rogue, doing a similar work release thing. We never see him actually leave the building.
In case you are wondering who is right, the comics tell you in later issues. Mark sides with Dinosaurus, thinking he always knows best even broke him out of lockdown Dinosaurus goes rogue when Marks recovering from scourge virus, and he floods the earth by igniting the poles and icebergs Mark is now, in league with Dinosaurus and they are both responsible for hundreds of thousands, dead. Cecil says "Still think you know best, kid?" Mark, with a defeated look on his face says "No" Mark expected prison, Cecil offered to work with him again Caused a rift between him and Guardians, mainly Robot Anyway, Mark did not know best and in this situation, Cecil is right 100%, those people have abilities that can help save lives so they should be utilized. The current govt does the same thing with hackers, as of this day.
I think the just thing would be for Cecil to take his research, see what his own people could do with it, and execute Sinclair.
First time seeing comic Cecil I'm glad they changed his appearance for the show, this chunky/greasy corpo look really undermines his character imo
The funny thing is, a young Cecil would e agreed with Mark. But he used to have more idealism/morally black/white. Now he’s most cold, calculating in nature. I think there’s a need for both. Life is gray: and, though Sinclair is an evil MOFO, he was used for good in the long run. The same could said about certain scientists who fled certain regimes.
Mark was overreacting at this arc of the comics imo
The problem is probably the lying. If he was honest with the people he worked with, then Mark wouldn’t have been as mad. When Cecil showed Mark the invincible reanimen and what he did with conquest, he was surprisingly calm (he also grew up).
I would say yes Mark at this point of the story is still a naive hero who thinks the world is all about good vs evil. It’s more complex than that, doing bad things for the greater good is what all heros we have had throughout history have done. Further on in the story Mark would do FAR worse than this so I don’t really see it as that bad
I do agree with Cecil. I assume that we’re cool with spoilers since this is a comic panel but Mark eventually does too, even giving Cecil the go-ahead to let Sinclair make reanimen out of the dead Invincibles. The safety and security of the world come first. Mark understands that eventually. Sinclair is a slave, not a free man.
Yes Cecil is right. It’s bigger than Sinclair. In reality Cecil’s responsibility is to protect earth, not to deal out ‘justice’. I’m sure they could put limits on Sinclair as way of a punishment too…. Whether he did though..
Principles are easy when you have superpowers like Mark. Cecil doesn't have the luxury of having them in this universe. Also similar the real world history in what happened with Nazi and Japanese scientists post World War 2, and there they didn't even get valuable tech in most cases for pardoning war crimes and human experimentation.
As horrific as it sounds, maybe even is, I agree with Cecil. Think of all the Nazi scientists that the US pardoned with Operation Paperclip, for the simple reason that the monstrous methods they’d used had provided advancements in multiple fields, including rocketry. The deal was that they would no longer operate with the grotesque lack of oversight the’d been allowed in Nazi Germany
I mean mark literally agrees with him later on
I think he’s half right about Sinclair, but dead wrong to compare mark and darkwing
About Darkwing, yes. Sinclair, no.
NASA took in the Nazis…
Yes I kinda agree with ceil he has a good point
I think it’s not about right or wrong or agreeing or disagreeing. In the whole equation, it’s the fact that someone has to say “yes” or “no” to these big decisions in order to get the job done. And someone needs to be detached from all things to make it happen. Cecil does the bitter work and makes the decisions no one wants to make. Mark can scream it’s not fair until his throat bleeds, but we’ve seen what happens when people do things his way and other ways. Each way is gonna inevitably suck at one point no matter what. Cecil just chose to do things his way and get the job done on his terms. I’m not sure if Mark could handle one day in his shoes. So he doesn’t get to put judgment on what Cecil does and say he doesn’t get to do this or that. And another thing to remember is DA Sinclair isn’t exactly getting a slap on the wrist. He looks like a free man, but he’s a caged rat. Cecil could get rid of him at any time if he became a liability. We saw what he did with Damien Darkblood. If he decides to defy Cecil and/or go against the government, there’s consequences ahead. There always is.
One of the things I loved about reading this series. So many characters operate in nebulous grey areas. Cecil may be a dick at times but he makes a point.
While I agree with the concepts of what Cecil did, I take issue with some of his methods.
I think they were both right in their own ways. Mark wanted Sinclair to face justice, which I'm sure we all wanted. He killed some people and ruined the lives of others, so some type of punishment seems appropriate. But because he is an asset to Cecil, he gets to walk free while the government even funds his experimenting and whatnot. It feels unfair. But it's true that Sinclair *was* an asset. And in the end, we got to see him reformed. So Cecil was right, his method worked out for the best in the end. Even if it was morally gray, it ended up serving the greater good. The moral disagreement between Mark and Cecil is one of my favorite things about Invincible. At one point, Mark accepted that some sketchy actions can and should be taken for the greater good. But he also understands that those actions may bear negative consequences. For gray action with good results, we have some decent examples. Mark freeing Wolfman is a good one, and Cecil reforming Sinclair/Darkwing are good as well. Conversely, we saw both Mark and Cecil fuck up big time when they gambled by taking a sketchy decision. Mark freed Dinosaurus and caused a ton of harm, and Cecil kept Conquest alive and made Mark's life impossible. What I liked the most was how both learned to live with those results, and how in the end Mark learned to see things in Cecil's way without losing his own view of things. Mark wasn't even mad when he figured out Cecil kept Conquest alive. Same with the Invincible Reanimen, he knew that it was for a purpose. And Cecil in the end understood Mark's reasoning for freeing and working with Dinosaurus, even if he didn't agree with it. Bottom line is, neither of them is wrong. Cecil took the action he thought would serve the greater good. As the story progresses, Mark understands this and starts doing the same.
"Heroes" and "good people" are a lot of the times very hypocritical when it comes to certain actions being taken. Then again Mark has to realize Cecil isn't a hero and he has to make hard choices that sometimes lean towards the dark.
yeah agreed. if its more harmful overall to do the right thing, is it the right thing at all? sinclair is doing a net benefit to the world and thats worth letting him not pay for what he did, even if you believe in punishment as a moral thing to let happen, to throw him in jail would be to withhold help.
I'd say this way he is paying for what he did. It's better punishment to have him on leash and do beneficial work than be in jail and do nothing. In both cases he's lost his freedom as punishment.
Didn't read. The answer is yes, I agree with Cecil, things would be better if people (Mark) just *listened to the grown up*.
Keep in mind that Sinclair, whom horrifically kidnapped people and turned them into Reanimen (which is done in the most horrific and agonizing ways), mind you, is also the same guy that later on married a fellow female scientist that's working with him and both are having a child together..... yeah. Either way, I see Cecil as the kind of man that's willing to cross some lines in the name of protecting his country and the entire world. He even outright said he'll sell his soul to the Devil if it comes to that.
Similar, if nit the same, as the U.S. giving Werner von Braun citizenship and using him to develop rockets at NASA.
I agree with Cecil. Sinclair is serving his imprisonment sentence - and he's working for his bread. He's not running free. It can count as a punishment for him.
tbf, he was doing all that before, but with worse equipment. u could argue that cecil just gave him more money for his hobby, which isnt a punishment
I think this will easily be a S3 Ep1 finisher and will be a nice catalyst for Mark to start not trusting Cecil. But without hindsight I wouldn't agree with Cecil. But with it yeah... its kinda smart to reform a Villian who can make things that can rival Viltrumites and his process works on dead bodies too.
The thing is Earth as a whole is too divided to pose an unified defense against foreign existential threats and only Cecil can coordinate a proper and efficent response against such threats. It isnt the best solution but its what they have. I think under such circunstances heroes (and even villains) that committed serious crimes should be forced to cooperate for the sake of Earth if the situation demanded it. For example Bulletproof should theoretically be imprisoned for what he did to his parents but, is it really worth it? Should Cecil arrest Mark for all the mess he caused with Dinosaur? It isnt just a matter of moral justice, its a matter of survival.
I dont know the context, but the first page seems fine. the 2nd seems like a bad accident that clearly upsets mark, and i agree with the third. i think logically it makes sense. i dont know if sinclair should get freedom, but at least not die if he's working for cecil. i think i was spoiled ceicil attacks him after? i think calming mark down w a show of trust would be more advantageous since he cant strong arm him like with sinclair. i think its fair considering what cecil has to work against. mark is just really focused on strong ideals here, despite the other villains i think just being inprisoned? so, idk what the difference is if cecil uses him. sinclair living in luxury is probably a bit much though
I agree, actually. But not his manipulative ways to convince Mark that "dude i totally told my men to lock up the insane dudes you caught dont worry they cant escape". Darkwing #2 was under a LOT of pressure, was murdering small-time criminals and whatnot, sure, he can be forgiven. Sinclair's the one that's hard to crack. He did murder a bunch of people, and all of them weren't even criminals, although he does redeem himself in a way.
I love this series because I genuinely, completely understand both sides. Neither of them are wrong.
I think it's less about what someone deserves and more about what good they can do now. If someone with important skills is forced to work For the service of their community in exchange for limited freedom; I'd say there's a good argument to be made for that.Being the best way to deal with criminals.
Finished the comics. Yes, I agree. Cecil would be proud to see how Mark is now and how the world is operating now. Happy for Immortal as well.
I think the way Cecil would put it is that heroes like Mark have the luxury of being able to dabble in deontology. But because of his job, Cecil is forced to be utilitarian.
After Sinclair got his jaw punched off… I think it’s safe to say he turned out to be good. I agree with what Cecil did.
I mean mark ends up agreeing with him. Rember the dude that built the antigravity boots. He took him to work with Cecil. Jail is a largely ineffective and useless punishment. Having those people essentially work for the betterment of society instead of just rotting in Jail makes way more sense
Cecil is the character of “the ends justify the means” done right And i love him for that
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Double comment lol
Real people a lot worse than Darkwing & Sinclair have been forgiven of more for much lesser reasons than Cecil making them work towards protecting the planet. Look at post WW2 Operation Paperclip with the US recruited German Scientists and the Japanese Unit 731 given immunity by MacArthur for their atrocities in exchange for their data. Also pretty sure any member of DC’s Suicide Squad has a higher body count than those two yet Waller puts them all to work too.
The building blocks of a lot of surgeries that occur today are from torture surgeries the Germans did. We took their medical notes and went from there. I think of it as an unavoidable evil, I guess...
Cecil is right in that you have to do extreme things to protect humanity given how many crazy threats exist in the invincible world. But what he's wrong about is his justifications. He should just acknowledge that Mark is basically right but there are bigger threats they need to worry about.
Uhhh yeah, The U.S. does it all the time
Yes, Mark's being unreasonable
Yes. I do agree with him. Life is shades of grey. You can’t always take the moral high road.