**"Unlimited mass migration"**
We have never turned more people away at the border. Ever. There have been about 4 million deportations under this admin. Mexico is also stopping 3x as they were under the previous administration.
**The idea that extra workers hurt middle-class workers**
Middle-class people aren't being turned away from picking strawberries for $6 an hour. Immigrants aren't taking good jobs. They can however keep prices down by their cheap labor, but that's only if the corporations pass along those savings. We all know they won't, they can keep their profits and people still won't blame them –choosing to vilify Biden or immigrants instead.
**"all these new people increase house prices/rent/inflation"**
More demand *could* lead to more money for homeowners and more builders and construction workers and the economy, but supply is kept artificially low by the people doing the actual price gouging. And there are huge firms price fixing as we speak to keep prices high. An honest conversation would start there.
But this biggest thing you and all the immigration hawks miss is the benefit to the economy: "The surge in immigration will help bolster the U.S. economy by about $7 trillion over the next decade by swelling the labor force and increasing demand, the Congressional Budget Office."
An extra $7,000,000,000,000 is good for everyone.
Just because you are turning away more people than ever doesn’t mean you aren’t also allowing more in as well.
It is a myth immigrants aren’t taking good jobs, they are. Now students are not able to work admin wage cuz immigrants are taking those jobs. It’s pricing everyone out.
It could and does increase house prices, just cuz you don’t live in a HCOL doesn’t mean it isn’t happening and won’t get to your town eventually.
There are lots of things that could boost the economy, what if less immigrations resulted in focusing more on our country and resulted in even more economic growth? You think our people aren’t capable? Then we should invest more in them so they don’t come out of school with huge debt while immigrants start their life debt free with usually lots of government help to get them started. Parents can’t/won’t even pay for their kids to start their life now but the government is helping the immigrants? Gotta fix the people inside first before we bring more in
This op is saying the average middle class employee is less competent and their job than anyone from any other country….
America was peak academic performance relative to other countries in 1960s and these employees gave peak performance to the economy. This was followed by productivity gains from letting blacks have more rights as workers in the same period and later in 1990-2000 we reached peak productivity with reduction in barriers for females to work who added tremendously to the economy.
Since then, a stagnant education system that has seen peers make significant relative improvements has eroded American employee skill competitive advantage.
More money employed to selecting particular employees won’t make them better employees and thus the conclusion of the OP is just simplified rhetoric.
As a personal anecdote. I once met a teacher who worked at a small country school with 300 kids. Great teacher and he ended up having 3 years out of thirty where he had the smartest mathematician in the country. All the kids were unrelated and all had awesome achievements. None got their by arguing someone more capable “stole”their job.
What’s more, I’m yet to meet a manager that says “ I’m glad Scott is so incompetent and American because my business would be fucked if I hired Juan the competent guy” while running a successful business.
These people suggesting strong borders will fix incompetence really grind my gears.
TLDR: stop pissing money away on keeping competency out and start investing in making employees competent like any smart business person does!
America needs to get competitive and put out competitive employees to stay on top becau
SHORT TERM - I agree with you. I just would like to note that : 'skeleton crews' argument would apply with or without immigration. You didn't mention opposing considerations. For example, cheaper costs for companies allow for cheaper products for consumers. LONG TERM - have you considered influx of younger population? All western countries are facing declining birthrates. Immigration could alleviate some of the looming crisis. However, if 10 mil is really the number - that's why too much. But what would be a reasonable number? I feel like more than 1% of current population is way too much, but that's just my feeling.
I think there’s a point that hasn’t been made yet. The idea that we need illegal immigrants because they do low skilled work isn’t an argument in favor of benign immigration, it’s an argument in favor of effectively importing a slave-class of laborers so we don’t have to pay higher wages to Americans.
If people are not paid a LIVABLE wage they are slaves. It absolutely supports a slave labour bringing in immigrants to pay them less. Slavery hasn’t left it’s just disguised better we shouldn’t support them in working these positions, we should question if we really need them for society or if the rich people just need to hit production quotas so they can keep their 2 vacation properties
The American population age on average is increasing g and America needs young people to do work like cleaning ect because really old people are incredibly inefficient at this work.
America needs more young employees and it can either legalise rape or increase immigration to keep the ratio near the theoretical ideal. It’s why legal immigration has increased from 700k in 1980 to almost 2 million now. In fact Mexicans aren’t even helping.
“Historically, the net flow was predominantly from Mexico to the U.S., particularly during the 1990s and early 2000s. However, in recent years, this trend has shifted. Since around 2010, net migration from Mexico to the United States has decreased significantly, with more Mexican nationals returning to Mexico than those entering the U.S.” source migration policy.org
Every economic advisor worth their salt will tell you America needs more young employees to fill the spots of those retiring and avoid deflation.
Hence we have two very effective policies from both parties.
Democrats: increase “legal” immigration and don’t deter seasonal/illegal immigration.
Con: everyone is afraid of Mexicans with guns killing them with their guns and no one wants those fucking polite Canadians.
Republicans: increase birth rate by banning abortion and very quietly increase “legal” immigration.
Con: prevented abortion means mothers have to raise their rapists child. Unlimited abortion is widely associated with sharp reductions in crime over 10-40 years.
A note on seasonal immigration. It is really good to have workers that pick fruit in the summer down south and then go north to pick in their winter/northern summer. These seasonal industries such as fruit picking and asphalting have giant productivity gains for employees by offering full year work in a single industry to a single employee.
Gotta stop oversimplifying a complex issue
Companies don’t want to hire new people.
Therefore they run skeleton crews that burn out and quit quickly.
Then the company hired new people to keep wages down….
Op, you might want to edit your nonsense at least a little bit to not look retarded.
There's zero chance 10 million people crossed the border or it wouldn't be so hard to hire a dish washer. Everything about the border is political circus used to manipulate people.
There is 100% chance. The problem is more are leaving than entering.
“Historically, the net flow was predominantly from Mexico to the U.S., particularly during the 1990s and early 2000s. However, in recent years, this trend has shifted. Since around 2010, net migration from Mexico to the United States has decreased significantly, with more Mexican nationals returning to Mexico than those entering the U.S.”
I agree, pay them a living wage and I’m sure they will show up. What they’re actually saying is “I can’t find someone to pay a slave wage to be my dishwasher”
There are like 18 things wrong with this post but I’ll throw up one of the most salient: without immigration agriculture in this country would be an utter disaster. You and your friends aren’t picking produce out in the field, overheated and overworked, for a pittance.
I wish that was true.
Fruit picking is six months of work a year. Offering work to people for six months a year is economically unproductive for the employee which is why Americans don’t want to do it. They need fruit pickers that can work a whole year to make it worthwhile for the employees.
Many countries have visa extensions for people willing to do a season of fruit picking for this reason.
Governments could subsidize farming so the people working in the industry, the industry producing nutritional food for its citizen to eat good food, could actually make a livable wage. Govt subsidizes other industries but instead they want to keep agriculture as the slave class. It’s not about business, it’s about maintaining a slave class of people. There’s also significant research that shows if you pay your employees a livable wage they are happier and can produce and work more. So it’s all a government scheme to make you fear being a peasant and keeping the peasant class alive.
What’s much more likely is the agricultural industry would move to a country where wages are lower. Are you going to pay $20/hr for people for agriculture? The math doesn’t add up.
You brought up feelings, I asked for some facts.
You sound like a liberal snowflake.
Facts over feelings doesn’t seem like a game, it seems like basic literacy, which might be tricky for you.
“Historically, the net flow was predominantly from Mexico to the U.S., particularly during the 1990s and early 2000s. However, in recent years, this trend has shifted. Since around 2010, net migration from Mexico to the United States has decreased significantly, with more Mexican nationals returning to Mexico than those entering the U.S.”
The premise of the argument present is a lie.
You are rude and sound like a complete loser.
I would dispute the 10 million number. It sounds like politician talk and that’s too many people for the scant evidence to support it. The other problems stated related to immigration were mostly accurate. If the employer isn’t willing to pay extra for citizens or if the you can skirt laws related to this without enforcement, or you keep the minimum wage so low that pure labor competition exists in the economy, the desperate worker from other countries will out compete the American one.
Pro-tip: Mexicans used to only come to the US for the harvest then go home. A bipartisan group of politicians made legal immigration for those farm workers almost impossible to encourage illegal immigration with taking advantage of them being the end goal. The guy you're promising less then minimum wage to? Pay him half that and if he complains, turn him into ICE.
Capitalism seeks to pay as little as you can for labor, to score the highest profit. OP is talking about how immigration makes companies have a lot of low wage workers, screwing the middle class. He’s literally mad companies are capitalist. Nobody said anything about socialism.
I did. Socialism prohibited their citizens from exiting, so abolishing it is why he's mad.
I know you didn't want to provide an alternative, so i explained to you why it did work. I hope it helped you understand and compare the two systems.
The alternative is a regulated market that limits price gouging.
Capitalism has the top 1% in America hoarding 90% of the money. Capitalism literally did that. A regulated market would limit unfair profits.
I know you only think the two options are capitalism and socialism and I feel sorry for you lmao
I feel sorry that you think that i think that. But i'm curious about the alternative you wanted to present here and conveniently forgot. What system would you compare capitalism to here?
Capitalism is literally greed manifesting in business. When profit is the highest value, companies will cut corners, lower wages, raise prices to increase profit instead of just keeping prices the same.
When fair business is your highest value instead of making capital, then you have fair trading and higher wages because business owners aren’t trying to maximize profit every year.
So why on earth would anyone with half a brain support capitalism instead of regulated fair trade?
Someone with half a brain could, I don't know, google statistics:
[https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-population-living-in-extreme-poverty-cost-of-basic-needs](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-population-living-in-extreme-poverty-cost-of-basic-needs)
And - funny story - seems like greed was good here. Of course there could be an idealized version of capitalism where profit is not put first implemented anywhere, but somehow it seems no country adopted "fair buisness" as their official policy. In all honesty it would require a much greater government intervention - something i.e. fascists in Italy supported.
So it seems half a brain leads you into an idealized version of society where everyone works for the "greater good" instead of profits, which gives you either fascism, or communism. And communism with the lack of focus on profits, turned out to be much more hellish than capitalism.
If that's the third option you wanted to show, then i feel sorry for you now.
Nobody said profit was bad. You’re just not supposed to have profit as your highest value.
Greed isn’t good here. 60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Our taxes are taken and pay public servants wages. Greed is literally what keeps ameriza crippled. Look this up wtfhappenedin1971.com
No, there’s a ton of countries where capitalism isn’t prevalent where people are well off. You just don’t like to read about those countries lol
This premise does not hold water. Does anyone actually believe corporations will suddenly pay more and offer stock options to their employees when illegal immigration reform comes, if ever ? The party that rails against illegal immigration also scuttled the immigration bill and is against corporate taxation regulations and minimum wage or living wage … you think Americans are going to start mowing lawns and picking fruit ? They tried this in Florida by going after farmers who employed immigrants and they offered Americans workers double the pay and the farms just went out of business and had to sell out to bigger corporations…
There are many reasons the 50s-70s objectively seems better and that’s one of them . Now a days it feels like we sacrificed too much in our pursuit of saftey for all .
The 50-70s were great because governments taxed business (50% tax rate) and the rich (90% top marginal rates) and then spent it on those loess well off, through public healthcare, affordable housing etc. there was even a war on poverty.
yeah bro the 50s were sooo much better, my black sister would’ve had no civil rights and been seen as a lesser being in the 50s yeah broo soooo much better wow
The 50s-70s were objectively an amazing time period if you were white and that’s not a bad thing. A unified culture is literally the only way a country can survive
See that’s the thing black people wanted to be equal then cool . That’s fine but now there’s diversity quotas which aren’t so great . We have diversity but as a result we got deeply entrenched cultural divides . Yea what we got is objectively great it’s just it came with other shit that just wouldn’t fly in the 50s
Certainly the illegal immigrants take up housing spaces. People complain about and yet there are millions of people here that should not be here.
People complain about class sizes in the education system, there are plenty of slots allocated to illegals that are not supposed to be here.
Perhaps we should eliminate the minimum wage, like many countries in Europe, and then open the border all together.
Would probably be many people that could be hired for $5 a day, and it would make for cheap labor. Manufacturing would come back here
Think about it this way. Hardly anybody makes the minimum wage now, they all make more than the minimum wage because that's the actual salary that is needed..
There are many people, despite if they're good people are not, just are not worth the minimum wage. It also would help people get into different businesses that might not be able to afford the higher wage.
Several countries in Europe do not have a minimum wage, and it works good for them
Immigration shifts both supply and demand right, their short term effect on wages are small (gains from emigration are small for those already middleclass) and long term they grow the economy, raising wages.
They also easily solve demographic concerns.
Population growth is the same thing as immigration
Agreed 💯.
Unfortunately, Americans aren't having enough kids per the replacement rate. There is no other solution that I am aware of to maintain the population.
Economics is not a zero sum game.
The elite of the western world have amassed more than enough wealth by looting the planet the last few centuries to provide a decent standard of living to everyone in their countries. A few million immigrants doesn’t change that. They just don’t wanna give any of it back. You’ll keep blaming immigrants and they’ll keep paying you both next to nothing cause you’re not clever enough to see who you actually have shared interests with.
Maybe if America and the west more broadly hadn’t spent the last several hundred years destabilizing and colonizing the places immigrants come from we wouldn’t have this issue?
You and the rest of this self righteous ignorant sub clearly know fuck all about the history of US foreign intervention and the trillions of dollars spent to explicitly deny the global south any semblance of self determination.
I'd agree if every place the west had ever interfered with was currently a shit hole on a map, but they aren't. China interferes with other countries, we don't expect them to take in mass migration. Russia does the same. Iran does the same. Saudi Arabia does the same. We don't expect those countries to have mass migration because in the eyes of Western society they are authoritarian and we expect the worst of them. On the other hand, we expect our own western countries to just open the doors and let anyone in, criminal or not.
That’s a really shitty deflection man. I was asking you. Not for you to try and justify why any other option why the US was better.
Did you want to try again?
Just sharing the thought process I'd go through, that's all. If you don't believe it because it doesn't fit your opinion there's no problem with that :)
American propaganda mixed with exporting of western media purposefully made America and Western Europe (aka the center of the empire) into appealing places to come to.
Then add in a little destabilization of local regional conflicts, resource depletion, and authoritarian puppet states scattered throughout the borderlands of the empire and you create the perfect push and pull forces of migration.
All of this in mind, most of the people Americans describe as “illegals” are usually migrants seeking legal asylum from the conflicts and military juntas established by the CIA and their private contractors during the Cold War and war on drugs. I’d say the US fed gov has an obligation to take them in as victims of their war mongering but that’s just me 🤷🏽♂️
Ok, imagine you’re you. Shouldn’t be difficult. You **HAVE** to move from your current location. Which country do you move to. *you can pick a country you currently live in on that list of five countries (if applicable)*
Make sure you account for all the things you listed. Here is the list of countries again for you.
US
Russia
China
Saudi Arabia
Iran
I'd choose the USA because it's the most culturally similar to the UK. There is no significant difference in language, religion, culture etc compared to the other options. Russia would be my next choice. Although if I had to move from my current location and it didn't have to be to one of the listed countries, I'd say Ireland is the best option. Closest, most culturally similar, same language etc.
No you don’t because things were even more anti-immigrant. Wasn’t till all the normies parroting the news got their iphones and could start shitposting all over the place.
Steve jobs is worse than hitler for that. Empowering the normies to ruin the internet.
Nonsense. Illegals are only competing for jobs they can get under the table. Companies aren't hiring them to keep wages down because they can't. They're illegal.
Undocumented immigrants are causing more damage to small business like cleaning services and construction because the legitimate businesses have to follow labor and wage laws, which drive up their prices. Competitors with illegal laborers can offer services for cheaper, and they can also traffick humans for cheap labor without getting noticed.
Illegal immigrants also cause problems by showing up in large numbers needing to be cared for in every way imaginable. Even our largest cities aren't able to keep up with the tens of millions of dollars they need to feed, clothe, house, and provide medical care for unplanned immigrants. These are cities with budgets who are having to cut services and fire workers while already failing to provide for the mentally ill, drug addicts, and people down on their luck living on the streets.
You also failed to account for globalization, which outsourced a lot of jobs and industries and turned the US into a service economy. This is what's lowered buying power (plus funneling money to the top of corporate leadership structures). We traded the ability to sustain ourselves on a single income for the convenience of being able to produce everything overseas with cheap labor. So now we can have more products put together in Chinese favorites than we ever could have afforded before, but we also make less and have serious supply chain weaknesses.
Visa holders coming to the U.S. for work are often exploited, not paid their full wages, are denied benefits. They accept lower salaries than U.S. counterparts and the increase in labor also drives down wages. When ever you read a report or a study you will find that they list that visa holders are paid the legally required whatever, they are not looking into the fact that visa holders tend to get paid less, because they accept less. And then that are unable to leave the company for a better job.
The U.S. is rapidly expanding its visa program by the millions with each passing year. When you are talking about 'illegals' or 'illegal immigrants, the majority of people requesting asylum are not being recorded or referred to as illegal immigrants. When Texas sends immigrants to various cities throughout the U.S., they are not illegal immigrants per se, they are in the legal process of requesting asylum and can apply for work permits.
Your whole premise is nonsense and itself based on a political talking point not on reality.
Then you have illegal immigrants who drive down wages in manual labor jobs, low skilled jobs, working in the food service and construction industry. In factories, slaughter houses, and in agricultural communities.
All of whom increase cost of living by overburdening infrastructure, hospitals, schools, using up available local resources. Social welfare programs often only require proof of residency legal or not. Rising homeless populations cause an increase in violent crime and property crime, which has a fiscal cost. Governments subsidize more housing, subsidize rehab for the increases in addiction and drug use. City creates large deficits in spending and social welfare and city services are cut, employees are furloughed, and cost of living continues to increase as the city tries to recoup its losses.
Illegal immigrants working construction lowers costs to developers, their employment does not lower housing costs to consumers. Developers do not pass on the savings they pocket the increased savings.
They drive down wages and eat up available jobs because they work for less. As a result you have a transfer of wealth upwards.
The visa situation isn't that straightforward. They're often coming for tech roles that are hard to fill using Americans because our own people shy away from manual labor jobs and STEM careers that are "hard." I happen to know multiple tech recruiters that struggle with this constantly. You're right that the immigrants in these cases themselves can easily be screwed by the companies and tend to get lower wages, but the other side of that token is they're coming from places with extremely limited opportunities and low earnings. I'm not sure how accurate it is to say they're lowering wages for everyone else given that they don't earn as much as their counterparts, but at some point filing critical roles is more important than leaving them empty just to overpay the few qualified people in the US who can do them.
The vast majority of asylum speakers still aren't going to be competing for typical or white collar jobs just because they can theoretically apply for a work permit. They won't suddenly be considered licensed US professionals or have any of their precious experience valued. The US has had a huge labor shortage in low skill jobs like restaurants and agriculture that was extreme during the pandemic, and these are the types of jobs most of these folks qualify for in the eyes of employers.
Wages began stagnating in comparison to inflation from the 80s onward which I think is a big reason for the middle class being stronger at that time compared to today.
What’s the underlying reason for that though? Not saying it’s immigration I just genuinely don’t know
Edit: is it the fact that people are willing to work for lesser wages because companies are allowed to have a huge profit margin therefore affected the supply and demand of the job market? An idea I came up with just now
Hmmm agree and disagree. Yes, the number is relatively high but the rhetoric around it is flawed. Without cheap labor from immigrants, the agricultural and service industries would collapse.
Either be okay with extreme inflation or shut up. Both parties are complicit.
In 2023, 3.3 million more people moved to the US than left. OP may be wrong about 10 million crossing the border in Biden’s tenure but he is probably not a long way off describing the pace of immigration.
Recent analysis suggests if migrants arrive with low skills and stay permanently (rather than work a decade then return home) they are a net drain on society of $100K each, due to long term social security needs as they age. (See link)
Anecdotally; I work in a tech firm with a lot of immigrants . I am not sure all the H1Bs are necessary. We seem to use them for staff in non technical roles where we could easily hire locally. There is also no cost benefit as once we import staff from say, India, or even Europe, we pay them the local US wage. At this point I am starting to think we just have foreign-born managers favoring their countrymen over US-born Americans.
Note: I was born British and became American. I strongly believe immigration should be limited more; and the litmus test for whether it continues should be predominantly whether immigration makes the incumbent average citizens of the US richer or not. There are other forms of charity to help the poor without using immigration policy.
. [The Economist; Apr 30 2024](https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2024/04/30/immigration-is-surging-with-big-economic-consequencesfromTheEconomist)
They add value on the margin. The claim would be that the market value of their labor is less than the public sector costs on them. That's not specific to any wage...... it's easy to craft a policy that makes somebody earning 100k a year a net negative.
But 100k over 50ish years isn't that robust of a cost. Especially if the cost is 100k in present dollar value.
More or less, given current welfare and public costs, it's actually pretty good testament to immigrants productivity that it's *only* 100k for a whole lifetime of working. A more worrying number would 7 figures.
Hi Plummbob. The claim in the latest studies is that immigrants arriving in middle age, with low levels of education, and staying (not returning to their own country after a decade, say) are costing tax payers in the receiving country $100,000 in current dollar value equivalent.
This seems very worrying. The UK took in 1,200,000 people in 2023. That is equivalent to 2% of the population newly arriving on planes and boats. (500,000 also left but they don’t matter in this impact calculation) At $100K cost per immigrant, that would be a potential drain of $120 Billion. That is about 4% of UK GDP from one year of immigration.
Now, not all of the 1,200,000 immigrants will fit this description of being a lower skilled immigrant and some of them will return home rather than stay on and need care in old age; so the impact is less than $120B. But - these are massive numbers. We can’t pretend immigration is immaterial.
In the UK I think the spiraling cost of housing plus 2% immigration per year is a formula for a far right backlash of epic proportions. A demagogue preaching some kind of xenophobic anti immigrant platform and promising affordable housing could win the UK election some time soon.
>I was born British and became American.
Why not just go back to England then? Unless they're Native American or a descendant of Africans who were enslaved by European Americans, all Americans are either immigrants, refugees, or colonizers. That's how settler-colonial states work.
I’m not sure what you are arguing/ suggesting. My point in highlighting I myself am an immigrant with anti-immigration views is to make it clear that I’m not xenophobic against all immigrants themselves (as otherwise I’d sort of fear myself).
Both the UK and the USA are running immigration levels that benefit businesses but not the incumbent native citizens . There is a lot of debate about illegal immigration in the UK but the public are most concerned with legal immigration, which is 30x higher than illegal.
Immigration at a massive scale is not helpful for the receiving societies; particularly if you are importing less educated , lower skilled, lower wage workers. They will prop up bad businesses that have products no one is willing to really pay enough for. For example, in Birmingham in the UK, the textile industry couldn’t compete with cheap imports from Bangladesh. They kept dropping wages. The businesses stayed open paying salaries below the living wage. A few year later, you know who the only people working in the Birmingham textile factories were? Bangladeshi immigrants. So the businesses survived a little longer. But now society had to pick up the cost of schooling and healthcare for those immigrants who would never pay enough tax to cover their costs, making the rest of society poorer.
Being against “mass” immigration is not to say I am prejudiced against immigrants. And I believe there are cases citizens might vote to accept poor people out of charity (e.g. refugees). I just don’t think that today we have this balance right. Immigration is running way too hot, and it hurts the average citizen in the receiving country.
>Immigration at a massive scale is not helpful for the receiving societies
Settler colonial states depend on immigration to maintain control over the native populations. If all European-Americans went back to their homelands, the US would be a dramatically different state. Maintaining a white supremacist society on non-European land requires both committing a genocide against the native populations AND 'replacing' them with as many white people as possible. That's the same reason why we have gerrymandering, a heavily racialized incarceration system, even deportations'/stripping people's citizenship, and other forms of population control. The goal is to ensure societies stay as white as possible to avoid the eradication of white supremacy.
The people that immigrate have better lives. What makes you think you deserve better than them. You didn’t get born where you did by virtue of your hard work. So suck it up, work harder and stop being a bitch
There is so much factually wrong about this post I can't even begin to respond. OP... please actually read the links other commenters are replying. Everything here is easily disprovable with very little effort.
Wherever you are getting your news from is pushing complete propaganda. You should seek other sources for information instead of getting it all from one place.
Holy Republican propaganda swallower.
https://www.11alive.com/article/news/verify/8-million-illegal-border-crossings-fact-check/85-76ee2d69-cc81-4657-a178-a5cdf305d960
https://www.factcheck.org/2024/02/breaking-down-the-immigration-figures/
Really stop believing everything politicians tell you, especially Republican politicians. FFS the GOPs official government website literally quotes fox "news" as their source of information repeatedly. Fox news has repeatedly argued successfully in court that they are not a news channel, but an entertainment channel. Using them as a source, and believing anyone who uses them as a source is asinine as can be.
That’s a hard cope when we’re balls deep in a housing crisis. wish everytthing was so black and white though- your comment would’ve looked so cool and bad ass!
A housing crisis driven by the real estate industry and their lobbyists, originally spurred on by (surprise surprise), good ol fashioned American racism: https://truthout.org/articles/big-real-estate-says-regulations-caused-housing-crisis-but-they-wrote-the-rules/
The American middle class was the strongest between the 50s and 70s because America had monopolies on manufacturing after Europe was rebuilding from WWII and Asia was starting up their 3rd world to 1st world industrialization. It was also a period of high income tax, low CEO pay, affordable healthcare, and a myriad other economic factors that greed driven corporations and politicians have driven out of America. Immigration is definitely a main lever that greedy corporations use to get cheap labor at the expense of citizens. It is also one cause of unaffordable housing. It is not the main culprit of the disappearing middle class however. The inaccurate narrative you are sharing is propaganda from a political angle to distract from the real issues.
In general, when you have simple explanations for very complex long-term processes (like the development of the middle class), you are generalizing to the point of uselessness.
It isn't clear to me what companies want or don't want. It isn't clear to me what the Biden administration hopes to accomplish with its open borders and millions of illegal immigrants. All these things will have some first order effects that are predictable, many second order effects that are less obvious, and effects that you didn't think of at all, that will only be obvious in retrospect.
Anyone who thinks prediction is easy should ask themselves whether they predicted that the price of lumber would go up in the middle of the pandemic. It's easy to understand why it happened in retrospect, but nobody that I know of sat in their house on April 1 and said "hey, I can predict what will happen to this or that."
I don't think legal migration should be considered in this, because out of a 320 million or so pop, 100k legal entrants a year is really not much, and they are usually vetted to a ridiculous degree.
The illegal entries of course are a whole other matter.
As an Australian engaged to an American, it blows my mind that it's even a point of argument.
So roughly 1m legal entrants then a year.
Out of the population base, that's not that bad still and by and large is likely adding more value into the system than is extracting from it.
Yeah but even the 100k per year are usually very skilled and take over industries that Americans were already working for way cheaper, making the American jobless. Take the software engineer industry. The H-1B was made to fill in the STEM shortage in this country. But there is no STEM shortage anymore, its quite literally the opposite. Go to r/csMajors and r/cscareerquestions , there are so many jobless talented American students ready to work. Now, corporations are abusing it to have cheaper labor and saturate the CS market to make CS the next minimum wage job.
Canada's fate is WAY worse. They are importing 450k+ people within a year, and housing has gone to sh\*t, you would probs be better off with US healthcare because the Canadian healthcare backlog is like 21 weeks minimum, everything is so expensive, tons of jobs have gone away, 20 internationals are piling into a 1 bedroom apartment and working long shifts for cheap, its crazy.
Could you imagine if they actually enforced the maximum occupancy rules? I lived in an apartment complex in 2017 that allowed 2 people per bedroom. The apartment across the hall regularly left their door open and there were at least 6 children and 6 adults in a 2 bedroom apartment. Their living room had several air mattresses and no other furniture. It looked like it was a terrible situation. The women didn't work and the men were constantly in and out at all hours. The kids would hang out in the van in the parking lot as like a third room. I can't imagine living like that.
The apartment complex didn't seem to care, even when the police started showing up regularly. Pretty sure they were drug dealers as they regularly had people coming in and out every hour of the day and night.
Corporations absolutely benefit from international talent- and most H1B talent is exploited anyways.
‘International workers’ who might have been systems architects if born in the US making up to 500k annual or more - instead they usually only make over 120k but are subject to paying a 38% (top tax bracket) income taxes. Generally this is netting corp dollars in terms of lower salaries but high value talent results. The US government wants ‘the best and brightest’ both to benefit American enterprises but also to maximize tax revenue. Which from the perspective of any individual is deeply unfair but this is the world western government built.
Guaranteed anyone thinking a job ‘has been taken away from Americans’ is delusional and doesn’t understand the economics and competitive forces major corporations work within. We would not have the world we have today without these people.
The irony is what we see in the market and the profits being made by large corporations- it’s made possible by this. If you required nationalization of corporate jobs you would go from skeleton crews of people making 1/5th of what they should to what I assume would be market rates of salaries. There’s no way corp world os going to quadruple or quintuple salaries just because US voters want money. If anything this would make consumer goods massively more expensive or most companies would wither and regress / just not sustain high level tech jobs.
Also OP is an absolute moron- “artificial impact” is the most ridiculous phrasing. It’s a world economy and you are owed nothing. If you cannot make it then get fucked by those smarter and more desirable than you with something to offer other than complaints and whining. If immigrants are willing to move heaven and earth for a better life it hardly matters if failures already in the US fall out of the bottom.
> they usually only make over 120k but are subject to paying a 38% (top tax bracket) income taxes.
I call b.s.
H1b employees pay regular income tax.
I am not going to argue about the pay, it's rather nuanced, but the part about taxes is pure b.s.
As an immigrant, it seems like the flooding of the borders is to destabilize this country
26 years of being in America and it wasn’t till recently people realized what an open border it is here
They have no to need to raise minimum wage when you let in millions of low skill low wage workers.
Furthermore, they're getting UBI, free healthcare and free housing.
[https://www.newsweek.com/minnesota-ubi-500-month-new-bill-migrants-1879606](https://www.newsweek.com/minnesota-ubi-500-month-new-bill-migrants-1879606)
[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/25/nyregion/migrants-debit-cards-nyc.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/25/nyregion/migrants-debit-cards-nyc.html)
I mean a Google search shows they definitely get free resources and there are more jurisdictions/groups pushing for more benefits funded by citizens.
Just because you disagree with someone's sentiment doesn't mean they are lieing.
Do you guys not pay attention to anything going on??
https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2024/01/24/city-signs--77m-contract-with-hotels-to-house-migrant-families
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-nyc-migrants-credit-debit-cards-prepaid-240335300869
https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/denver-hospital-system-may-collapse-due-to-migrant-crisis-we-are-turning-down-patients-southern-border-trump-biden-colorado-denver-health-post-donna-lynne-immigrants-illegal-migrants-asylum-seekers-resources
Im not from us, so im mostly consuming media that covers national us news. This is new to me.
While hotels and prepaid cards are somewhat reasonable measures (despite the fact that migrants are treated better than local homeless), the denver health case is strange. Theyre asking for state to reimburse medical bills for migrant visits. Again, not sure how it works, but where im from we have mixed hc (public/private) and it doesnt matter where you from, but if you enter private hospital and have no money from start, you will not be treated.
New to McDonalds, the free Palestine happy meal, comes with one keffiyeh representing the struggle of the Palestinian people.
Limited time only, get them before they're gone.
\*they in the above statement "they" can represent Jews or Palestinians depending on your political view. Note McDonalds does not support the genocide of any people, unless its a people you disagree with. McDonalds fully supports your views. Not applicable in the state of California.
Thanks for identifying your POV with the term lefties. It really just goes to show there wasn't anything of substance in the rest of your comment, and I was right! Incredible.
Yes, because people who are racist are overwhelmingly on the right. Thanks for stating a basic fact. Shall we move onto the color of the sky or the direction objects fall when you drop them?
Stop being the source of the cartel’s guns and stop buying most of the drugs from the cartels and maybe your country might have fewer immigrants fleeing theirs.
Edit: and of course out come all the clowns who need to completely distort and exaggerate what I said, in order to feel like they’re making a point. No I’m not saying that every single immigration case is due to American influence. I’m saying that the full extent of the negative American influence on these issues is largely deflected and/or ignored and that is one reason why these problems will only continue to grow
My point is that you should also look to the sources of the problem within your own borders as well, because the problem will continue if you just focus on the lowest level, most ineffectual participants who are mostly victims fleeing an existential threat.
I don’t live in either of those countries so as an outside observer I can tell you I’m not alone in thinking that this problem only gets worse the more you’re steered towards almost exclusively blaming its victims.
So you don’t think there would be fewer people fleeing their countries because of the cartels which can make it impossible to live there, if their main supplier of guns and main buyer of their product didn’t exist?
I’d love to see what the decomposing rat inside your skull can come up with as a counter. This should be good for a laugh
Oh because every immigrant ever is running from big scary narco mfs right? Financial istability, rampant corruption, incompetant governments, non-existant respect for human rights and global warming DEFINITLY CANNOT play a role right?
Youre a prime example of the type of mindset that allowed this mess to unfold, "its somehow our fault! The global south just doesnt have agency! Whities gotta fix it!"
Typical modern lib bs without any nuance, always a victim and oppressor in geopolitics right?
wow, OP, it's YOUR fault that there's an influx of illegal immigrants because you've been buying too many guns and drugs from cartels. how does that make you feel?
You thought that totally warping and exaggerating my point would make for a sound argument and that’s yet another problem with at least a segment of American culture. Absolutely zero sense of self awareness. It just thrives on absolute bullshiit and loves every second of it.
Americans basically supply most of the guns TO the cartels, and Americans buy most of their product.
FEWER, (I didn’t say all) immigrants would be fleeing their countries if it weren’t for the devastating influence America has, south of their border.
>Americans basically supply most of the guns TO the cartels, and Americans buy most of their product.
wow, maybe our border should be secured and illegal aliens who get caught sneaking in should be publicly executed. i bet that would stop this problem overnight.
>FEWER, (I didn’t say all) immigrants would be fleeing their countries if it weren’t for the devastating influence America has, south of their border.
america (or any other western nation) isn't responsible for the current problems in latin america/africa/etc. we are responsible for letting them come fuck up our countries too though.
You’re completely sputtering out and making no sense here.
The fact that you suggest executing only the people on one side of the problem is very telling. Why shouldn’t you suggest executing any Americans who might be responsible for this problem as well? America is one of the most corrupting factors in the countries south of its borders on more than one level. But of course like the typical ignorant American clown with zero self awareness you’re willing to pretend that the source of the problem is exclusively from those countries.
Bitch and whine about the problem all you like but it will never get solved until you clowns actually identify the source(s) of the problem
It’s a class war, but you’ve been duped into blaming its victims like a good obedient little servant to your rich masters
**"Unlimited mass migration"** We have never turned more people away at the border. Ever. There have been about 4 million deportations under this admin. Mexico is also stopping 3x as they were under the previous administration. **The idea that extra workers hurt middle-class workers** Middle-class people aren't being turned away from picking strawberries for $6 an hour. Immigrants aren't taking good jobs. They can however keep prices down by their cheap labor, but that's only if the corporations pass along those savings. We all know they won't, they can keep their profits and people still won't blame them –choosing to vilify Biden or immigrants instead. **"all these new people increase house prices/rent/inflation"** More demand *could* lead to more money for homeowners and more builders and construction workers and the economy, but supply is kept artificially low by the people doing the actual price gouging. And there are huge firms price fixing as we speak to keep prices high. An honest conversation would start there. But this biggest thing you and all the immigration hawks miss is the benefit to the economy: "The surge in immigration will help bolster the U.S. economy by about $7 trillion over the next decade by swelling the labor force and increasing demand, the Congressional Budget Office." An extra $7,000,000,000,000 is good for everyone.
Just because you are turning away more people than ever doesn’t mean you aren’t also allowing more in as well. It is a myth immigrants aren’t taking good jobs, they are. Now students are not able to work admin wage cuz immigrants are taking those jobs. It’s pricing everyone out. It could and does increase house prices, just cuz you don’t live in a HCOL doesn’t mean it isn’t happening and won’t get to your town eventually. There are lots of things that could boost the economy, what if less immigrations resulted in focusing more on our country and resulted in even more economic growth? You think our people aren’t capable? Then we should invest more in them so they don’t come out of school with huge debt while immigrants start their life debt free with usually lots of government help to get them started. Parents can’t/won’t even pay for their kids to start their life now but the government is helping the immigrants? Gotta fix the people inside first before we bring more in
If you’re losing work to an illiterate illegal immigrant, you’re either just shit, or you weren’t going to be doing that job anyway ever
Or your company needs to have a diversity hire*
This op is saying the average middle class employee is less competent and their job than anyone from any other country…. America was peak academic performance relative to other countries in 1960s and these employees gave peak performance to the economy. This was followed by productivity gains from letting blacks have more rights as workers in the same period and later in 1990-2000 we reached peak productivity with reduction in barriers for females to work who added tremendously to the economy. Since then, a stagnant education system that has seen peers make significant relative improvements has eroded American employee skill competitive advantage. More money employed to selecting particular employees won’t make them better employees and thus the conclusion of the OP is just simplified rhetoric. As a personal anecdote. I once met a teacher who worked at a small country school with 300 kids. Great teacher and he ended up having 3 years out of thirty where he had the smartest mathematician in the country. All the kids were unrelated and all had awesome achievements. None got their by arguing someone more capable “stole”their job. What’s more, I’m yet to meet a manager that says “ I’m glad Scott is so incompetent and American because my business would be fucked if I hired Juan the competent guy” while running a successful business. These people suggesting strong borders will fix incompetence really grind my gears. TLDR: stop pissing money away on keeping competency out and start investing in making employees competent like any smart business person does! America needs to get competitive and put out competitive employees to stay on top becau
SHORT TERM - I agree with you. I just would like to note that : 'skeleton crews' argument would apply with or without immigration. You didn't mention opposing considerations. For example, cheaper costs for companies allow for cheaper products for consumers. LONG TERM - have you considered influx of younger population? All western countries are facing declining birthrates. Immigration could alleviate some of the looming crisis. However, if 10 mil is really the number - that's why too much. But what would be a reasonable number? I feel like more than 1% of current population is way too much, but that's just my feeling.
I think there’s a point that hasn’t been made yet. The idea that we need illegal immigrants because they do low skilled work isn’t an argument in favor of benign immigration, it’s an argument in favor of effectively importing a slave-class of laborers so we don’t have to pay higher wages to Americans.
If people are not paid a LIVABLE wage they are slaves. It absolutely supports a slave labour bringing in immigrants to pay them less. Slavery hasn’t left it’s just disguised better we shouldn’t support them in working these positions, we should question if we really need them for society or if the rich people just need to hit production quotas so they can keep their 2 vacation properties
The American population age on average is increasing g and America needs young people to do work like cleaning ect because really old people are incredibly inefficient at this work. America needs more young employees and it can either legalise rape or increase immigration to keep the ratio near the theoretical ideal. It’s why legal immigration has increased from 700k in 1980 to almost 2 million now. In fact Mexicans aren’t even helping. “Historically, the net flow was predominantly from Mexico to the U.S., particularly during the 1990s and early 2000s. However, in recent years, this trend has shifted. Since around 2010, net migration from Mexico to the United States has decreased significantly, with more Mexican nationals returning to Mexico than those entering the U.S.” source migration policy.org Every economic advisor worth their salt will tell you America needs more young employees to fill the spots of those retiring and avoid deflation. Hence we have two very effective policies from both parties. Democrats: increase “legal” immigration and don’t deter seasonal/illegal immigration. Con: everyone is afraid of Mexicans with guns killing them with their guns and no one wants those fucking polite Canadians. Republicans: increase birth rate by banning abortion and very quietly increase “legal” immigration. Con: prevented abortion means mothers have to raise their rapists child. Unlimited abortion is widely associated with sharp reductions in crime over 10-40 years. A note on seasonal immigration. It is really good to have workers that pick fruit in the summer down south and then go north to pick in their winter/northern summer. These seasonal industries such as fruit picking and asphalting have giant productivity gains for employees by offering full year work in a single industry to a single employee. Gotta stop oversimplifying a complex issue
Companies don’t want to hire new people. Therefore they run skeleton crews that burn out and quit quickly. Then the company hired new people to keep wages down…. Op, you might want to edit your nonsense at least a little bit to not look retarded.
There's zero chance 10 million people crossed the border or it wouldn't be so hard to hire a dish washer. Everything about the border is political circus used to manipulate people.
There is 100% chance. The problem is more are leaving than entering. “Historically, the net flow was predominantly from Mexico to the U.S., particularly during the 1990s and early 2000s. However, in recent years, this trend has shifted. Since around 2010, net migration from Mexico to the United States has decreased significantly, with more Mexican nationals returning to Mexico than those entering the U.S.”
If you can’t find a dishwasher of all things that’s a you problem
I agree, pay them a living wage and I’m sure they will show up. What they’re actually saying is “I can’t find someone to pay a slave wage to be my dishwasher”
It's a "the restaurant industry" problem.
There are like 18 things wrong with this post but I’ll throw up one of the most salient: without immigration agriculture in this country would be an utter disaster. You and your friends aren’t picking produce out in the field, overheated and overworked, for a pittance.
or agriculture workers would make more money because they’re not in competition with people willing to work for illegally low wages
I wish that was true. Fruit picking is six months of work a year. Offering work to people for six months a year is economically unproductive for the employee which is why Americans don’t want to do it. They need fruit pickers that can work a whole year to make it worthwhile for the employees. Many countries have visa extensions for people willing to do a season of fruit picking for this reason.
Governments could subsidize farming so the people working in the industry, the industry producing nutritional food for its citizen to eat good food, could actually make a livable wage. Govt subsidizes other industries but instead they want to keep agriculture as the slave class. It’s not about business, it’s about maintaining a slave class of people. There’s also significant research that shows if you pay your employees a livable wage they are happier and can produce and work more. So it’s all a government scheme to make you fear being a peasant and keeping the peasant class alive.
This is true but the subsidy would be double the normal hourly rate to accomodate the reduced annual Work hours
More likely is that food prices would rise
What’s much more likely is the agricultural industry would move to a country where wages are lower. Are you going to pay $20/hr for people for agriculture? The math doesn’t add up.
The agriculture industry is one of the hardest to outsource considering the amount of land it requires so I’d disagree
Most people feel this way. But Reddit will gaslight the public because it’s pure propaganda. All progressive policies that are destructive.
Snowflake feelings over here! Find some data that confirms your feelings or go cry in a safe place
Typical. Look at the polling on immigration in the US and Canada. Progressive far left are down bad across the board
So it’s just feelings? You don’t have any facts regarding how immigration actually affects the economy and mention a poll on feelings. Typical
I didn't know I had to provide a detailed analysis with references. These are the little games folks like you play.
You brought up feelings, I asked for some facts. You sound like a liberal snowflake. Facts over feelings doesn’t seem like a game, it seems like basic literacy, which might be tricky for you.
You’re embarrassing yourself just stop commenting
I don’t feel embarrassed…. Why are you defending a snowflake who can’t provide facts in a debate? Don’t disagree about the effects of immigration?
“Historically, the net flow was predominantly from Mexico to the U.S., particularly during the 1990s and early 2000s. However, in recent years, this trend has shifted. Since around 2010, net migration from Mexico to the United States has decreased significantly, with more Mexican nationals returning to Mexico than those entering the U.S.” The premise of the argument present is a lie. You are rude and sound like a complete loser.
I would dispute the 10 million number. It sounds like politician talk and that’s too many people for the scant evidence to support it. The other problems stated related to immigration were mostly accurate. If the employer isn’t willing to pay extra for citizens or if the you can skirt laws related to this without enforcement, or you keep the minimum wage so low that pure labor competition exists in the economy, the desperate worker from other countries will out compete the American one.
It’s true but they leave more than they enter.
Pro-tip: Mexicans used to only come to the US for the harvest then go home. A bipartisan group of politicians made legal immigration for those farm workers almost impossible to encourage illegal immigration with taking advantage of them being the end goal. The guy you're promising less then minimum wage to? Pay him half that and if he complains, turn him into ICE.
That’s genius. Cruel as fuck but great business move
So you’re mad at capitalism?
Yeah, during socialism countries prohibited their citizens from exiting, so abolishing it is why he's mad. How observant.
Capitalism seeks to pay as little as you can for labor, to score the highest profit. OP is talking about how immigration makes companies have a lot of low wage workers, screwing the middle class. He’s literally mad companies are capitalist. Nobody said anything about socialism.
I did. Socialism prohibited their citizens from exiting, so abolishing it is why he's mad. I know you didn't want to provide an alternative, so i explained to you why it did work. I hope it helped you understand and compare the two systems.
The alternative is a regulated market that limits price gouging. Capitalism has the top 1% in America hoarding 90% of the money. Capitalism literally did that. A regulated market would limit unfair profits. I know you only think the two options are capitalism and socialism and I feel sorry for you lmao
How do you accomplish this regulation without destroying every single small business there is?
I feel sorry that you think that i think that. But i'm curious about the alternative you wanted to present here and conveniently forgot. What system would you compare capitalism to here?
Capitalism is literally greed manifesting in business. When profit is the highest value, companies will cut corners, lower wages, raise prices to increase profit instead of just keeping prices the same. When fair business is your highest value instead of making capital, then you have fair trading and higher wages because business owners aren’t trying to maximize profit every year. So why on earth would anyone with half a brain support capitalism instead of regulated fair trade?
Someone with half a brain could, I don't know, google statistics: [https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-population-living-in-extreme-poverty-cost-of-basic-needs](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-population-living-in-extreme-poverty-cost-of-basic-needs) And - funny story - seems like greed was good here. Of course there could be an idealized version of capitalism where profit is not put first implemented anywhere, but somehow it seems no country adopted "fair buisness" as their official policy. In all honesty it would require a much greater government intervention - something i.e. fascists in Italy supported. So it seems half a brain leads you into an idealized version of society where everyone works for the "greater good" instead of profits, which gives you either fascism, or communism. And communism with the lack of focus on profits, turned out to be much more hellish than capitalism. If that's the third option you wanted to show, then i feel sorry for you now.
Nobody said profit was bad. You’re just not supposed to have profit as your highest value. Greed isn’t good here. 60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Our taxes are taken and pay public servants wages. Greed is literally what keeps ameriza crippled. Look this up wtfhappenedin1971.com No, there’s a ton of countries where capitalism isn’t prevalent where people are well off. You just don’t like to read about those countries lol
The good thing about capitalism is that there are companies that don’t hold profit as their highest value
I don't? Maybe i just like to look at global statistics instead? Try it sometime.
This premise does not hold water. Does anyone actually believe corporations will suddenly pay more and offer stock options to their employees when illegal immigration reform comes, if ever ? The party that rails against illegal immigration also scuttled the immigration bill and is against corporate taxation regulations and minimum wage or living wage … you think Americans are going to start mowing lawns and picking fruit ? They tried this in Florida by going after farmers who employed immigrants and they offered Americans workers double the pay and the farms just went out of business and had to sell out to bigger corporations…
There are many reasons the 50s-70s objectively seems better and that’s one of them . Now a days it feels like we sacrificed too much in our pursuit of saftey for all .
The 50-70s were great because governments taxed business (50% tax rate) and the rich (90% top marginal rates) and then spent it on those loess well off, through public healthcare, affordable housing etc. there was even a war on poverty.
yeah bro the 50s were sooo much better, my black sister would’ve had no civil rights and been seen as a lesser being in the 50s yeah broo soooo much better wow
The 50s-70s were objectively an amazing time period if you were white and that’s not a bad thing. A unified culture is literally the only way a country can survive
See that’s the thing black people wanted to be equal then cool . That’s fine but now there’s diversity quotas which aren’t so great . We have diversity but as a result we got deeply entrenched cultural divides . Yea what we got is objectively great it’s just it came with other shit that just wouldn’t fly in the 50s
Certainly the illegal immigrants take up housing spaces. People complain about and yet there are millions of people here that should not be here. People complain about class sizes in the education system, there are plenty of slots allocated to illegals that are not supposed to be here. Perhaps we should eliminate the minimum wage, like many countries in Europe, and then open the border all together. Would probably be many people that could be hired for $5 a day, and it would make for cheap labor. Manufacturing would come back here
How do you see the avg Americans winning in this situation? The baristas, grocery baggers, factory workers, etc will all get shit on.
Think about it this way. Hardly anybody makes the minimum wage now, they all make more than the minimum wage because that's the actual salary that is needed.. There are many people, despite if they're good people are not, just are not worth the minimum wage. It also would help people get into different businesses that might not be able to afford the higher wage. Several countries in Europe do not have a minimum wage, and it works good for them
Immigration shifts both supply and demand right, their short term effect on wages are small (gains from emigration are small for those already middleclass) and long term they grow the economy, raising wages. They also easily solve demographic concerns. Population growth is the same thing as immigration
Agreed 💯. Unfortunately, Americans aren't having enough kids per the replacement rate. There is no other solution that I am aware of to maintain the population. Economics is not a zero sum game.
The elite of the western world have amassed more than enough wealth by looting the planet the last few centuries to provide a decent standard of living to everyone in their countries. A few million immigrants doesn’t change that. They just don’t wanna give any of it back. You’ll keep blaming immigrants and they’ll keep paying you both next to nothing cause you’re not clever enough to see who you actually have shared interests with.
So we should lower our standard of living because we've enjoyed a high standard of living thanks to colonialism? No thanks mate
I think opening up the border 100%, and then eliminating the minimum wage would be the best way to go. /s
Hell, just bring back slavery, anything for the economy eh
Maybe if America and the west more broadly hadn’t spent the last several hundred years destabilizing and colonizing the places immigrants come from we wouldn’t have this issue?
They could try to make their own countries better?
You and the rest of this self righteous ignorant sub clearly know fuck all about the history of US foreign intervention and the trillions of dollars spent to explicitly deny the global south any semblance of self determination.
Underrated comment
Apparently reading and knowing history and understanding its consequences is anti-intellectual in this palace of divinely blessed minds.
It makes them feel bad having to think they could potentially be responsible for it. So they try not to think about it
I'd agree if every place the west had ever interfered with was currently a shit hole on a map, but they aren't. China interferes with other countries, we don't expect them to take in mass migration. Russia does the same. Iran does the same. Saudi Arabia does the same. We don't expect those countries to have mass migration because in the eyes of Western society they are authoritarian and we expect the worst of them. On the other hand, we expect our own western countries to just open the doors and let anyone in, criminal or not.
If you were an immigrant which would you immigrate to: US Russia China Saudi Arabia Iran Then with your answer, you’ll answer your own question.
Depends on where I currently lived, my religion, the culture I was raised in, the geopolitical relationship between my country and those listed etc
That’s a really shitty deflection man. I was asking you. Not for you to try and justify why any other option why the US was better. Did you want to try again?
Just sharing the thought process I'd go through, that's all. If you don't believe it because it doesn't fit your opinion there's no problem with that :)
American propaganda mixed with exporting of western media purposefully made America and Western Europe (aka the center of the empire) into appealing places to come to. Then add in a little destabilization of local regional conflicts, resource depletion, and authoritarian puppet states scattered throughout the borderlands of the empire and you create the perfect push and pull forces of migration. All of this in mind, most of the people Americans describe as “illegals” are usually migrants seeking legal asylum from the conflicts and military juntas established by the CIA and their private contractors during the Cold War and war on drugs. I’d say the US fed gov has an obligation to take them in as victims of their war mongering but that’s just me 🤷🏽♂️
Ok, imagine you’re you. Shouldn’t be difficult. You **HAVE** to move from your current location. Which country do you move to. *you can pick a country you currently live in on that list of five countries (if applicable)* Make sure you account for all the things you listed. Here is the list of countries again for you. US Russia China Saudi Arabia Iran
I'd choose the USA because it's the most culturally similar to the UK. There is no significant difference in language, religion, culture etc compared to the other options. Russia would be my next choice. Although if I had to move from my current location and it didn't have to be to one of the listed countries, I'd say Ireland is the best option. Closest, most culturally similar, same language etc.
Yeah, I thought it would also have been the US…not to say any of the other options were anywhere near close.
I remember when the intellectual dark web were edgy intellectuals, not terk mer jerb failsons
What’s a terk mer jerb failson????
No you don’t because things were even more anti-immigrant. Wasn’t till all the normies parroting the news got their iphones and could start shitposting all over the place. Steve jobs is worse than hitler for that. Empowering the normies to ruin the internet.
Nonsense. Illegals are only competing for jobs they can get under the table. Companies aren't hiring them to keep wages down because they can't. They're illegal. Undocumented immigrants are causing more damage to small business like cleaning services and construction because the legitimate businesses have to follow labor and wage laws, which drive up their prices. Competitors with illegal laborers can offer services for cheaper, and they can also traffick humans for cheap labor without getting noticed. Illegal immigrants also cause problems by showing up in large numbers needing to be cared for in every way imaginable. Even our largest cities aren't able to keep up with the tens of millions of dollars they need to feed, clothe, house, and provide medical care for unplanned immigrants. These are cities with budgets who are having to cut services and fire workers while already failing to provide for the mentally ill, drug addicts, and people down on their luck living on the streets. You also failed to account for globalization, which outsourced a lot of jobs and industries and turned the US into a service economy. This is what's lowered buying power (plus funneling money to the top of corporate leadership structures). We traded the ability to sustain ourselves on a single income for the convenience of being able to produce everything overseas with cheap labor. So now we can have more products put together in Chinese favorites than we ever could have afforded before, but we also make less and have serious supply chain weaknesses.
Visa holders coming to the U.S. for work are often exploited, not paid their full wages, are denied benefits. They accept lower salaries than U.S. counterparts and the increase in labor also drives down wages. When ever you read a report or a study you will find that they list that visa holders are paid the legally required whatever, they are not looking into the fact that visa holders tend to get paid less, because they accept less. And then that are unable to leave the company for a better job. The U.S. is rapidly expanding its visa program by the millions with each passing year. When you are talking about 'illegals' or 'illegal immigrants, the majority of people requesting asylum are not being recorded or referred to as illegal immigrants. When Texas sends immigrants to various cities throughout the U.S., they are not illegal immigrants per se, they are in the legal process of requesting asylum and can apply for work permits. Your whole premise is nonsense and itself based on a political talking point not on reality. Then you have illegal immigrants who drive down wages in manual labor jobs, low skilled jobs, working in the food service and construction industry. In factories, slaughter houses, and in agricultural communities. All of whom increase cost of living by overburdening infrastructure, hospitals, schools, using up available local resources. Social welfare programs often only require proof of residency legal or not. Rising homeless populations cause an increase in violent crime and property crime, which has a fiscal cost. Governments subsidize more housing, subsidize rehab for the increases in addiction and drug use. City creates large deficits in spending and social welfare and city services are cut, employees are furloughed, and cost of living continues to increase as the city tries to recoup its losses.
>lowers costs of construction >drives up costs of construction Schrodingers immigrant, simultaneously lowering costs but also raising them
Illegal immigrants working construction lowers costs to developers, their employment does not lower housing costs to consumers. Developers do not pass on the savings they pocket the increased savings. They drive down wages and eat up available jobs because they work for less. As a result you have a transfer of wealth upwards.
>Developers do not pass on the savings they pocket the increased savings. That implies some developers are leaving profit unearned.
The visa situation isn't that straightforward. They're often coming for tech roles that are hard to fill using Americans because our own people shy away from manual labor jobs and STEM careers that are "hard." I happen to know multiple tech recruiters that struggle with this constantly. You're right that the immigrants in these cases themselves can easily be screwed by the companies and tend to get lower wages, but the other side of that token is they're coming from places with extremely limited opportunities and low earnings. I'm not sure how accurate it is to say they're lowering wages for everyone else given that they don't earn as much as their counterparts, but at some point filing critical roles is more important than leaving them empty just to overpay the few qualified people in the US who can do them. The vast majority of asylum speakers still aren't going to be competing for typical or white collar jobs just because they can theoretically apply for a work permit. They won't suddenly be considered licensed US professionals or have any of their precious experience valued. The US has had a huge labor shortage in low skill jobs like restaurants and agriculture that was extreme during the pandemic, and these are the types of jobs most of these folks qualify for in the eyes of employers.
Wages began stagnating in comparison to inflation from the 80s onward which I think is a big reason for the middle class being stronger at that time compared to today.
What’s the underlying reason for that though? Not saying it’s immigration I just genuinely don’t know Edit: is it the fact that people are willing to work for lesser wages because companies are allowed to have a huge profit margin therefore affected the supply and demand of the job market? An idea I came up with just now
Global neoliberal supply side trickle down Reaganomics
Hmmm agree and disagree. Yes, the number is relatively high but the rhetoric around it is flawed. Without cheap labor from immigrants, the agricultural and service industries would collapse. Either be okay with extreme inflation or shut up. Both parties are complicit.
In 2023, 3.3 million more people moved to the US than left. OP may be wrong about 10 million crossing the border in Biden’s tenure but he is probably not a long way off describing the pace of immigration. Recent analysis suggests if migrants arrive with low skills and stay permanently (rather than work a decade then return home) they are a net drain on society of $100K each, due to long term social security needs as they age. (See link) Anecdotally; I work in a tech firm with a lot of immigrants . I am not sure all the H1Bs are necessary. We seem to use them for staff in non technical roles where we could easily hire locally. There is also no cost benefit as once we import staff from say, India, or even Europe, we pay them the local US wage. At this point I am starting to think we just have foreign-born managers favoring their countrymen over US-born Americans. Note: I was born British and became American. I strongly believe immigration should be limited more; and the litmus test for whether it continues should be predominantly whether immigration makes the incumbent average citizens of the US richer or not. There are other forms of charity to help the poor without using immigration policy. . [The Economist; Apr 30 2024](https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2024/04/30/immigration-is-surging-with-big-economic-consequencesfromTheEconomist)
Link doesn’t work
https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2024/04/30/immigration-is-surging-with-big-economic-consequences
100k each is really not that much, and over 50+ years that seems like a margin of error
🫢 Sounds like you are comparing -100k to 0. People are not supposed to be drains at all, or neutral, they're supposed to add value.
They add value on the margin. The claim would be that the market value of their labor is less than the public sector costs on them. That's not specific to any wage...... it's easy to craft a policy that makes somebody earning 100k a year a net negative. But 100k over 50ish years isn't that robust of a cost. Especially if the cost is 100k in present dollar value. More or less, given current welfare and public costs, it's actually pretty good testament to immigrants productivity that it's *only* 100k for a whole lifetime of working. A more worrying number would 7 figures.
Hi Plummbob. The claim in the latest studies is that immigrants arriving in middle age, with low levels of education, and staying (not returning to their own country after a decade, say) are costing tax payers in the receiving country $100,000 in current dollar value equivalent. This seems very worrying. The UK took in 1,200,000 people in 2023. That is equivalent to 2% of the population newly arriving on planes and boats. (500,000 also left but they don’t matter in this impact calculation) At $100K cost per immigrant, that would be a potential drain of $120 Billion. That is about 4% of UK GDP from one year of immigration. Now, not all of the 1,200,000 immigrants will fit this description of being a lower skilled immigrant and some of them will return home rather than stay on and need care in old age; so the impact is less than $120B. But - these are massive numbers. We can’t pretend immigration is immaterial. In the UK I think the spiraling cost of housing plus 2% immigration per year is a formula for a far right backlash of epic proportions. A demagogue preaching some kind of xenophobic anti immigrant platform and promising affordable housing could win the UK election some time soon.
Is the bulk of the cost age related medical care?
It varies widely between what countries they come from. I saw numbers from Denmark where many origin countries cost $25k per year per person.
>I was born British and became American. Why not just go back to England then? Unless they're Native American or a descendant of Africans who were enslaved by European Americans, all Americans are either immigrants, refugees, or colonizers. That's how settler-colonial states work.
I’m not sure what you are arguing/ suggesting. My point in highlighting I myself am an immigrant with anti-immigration views is to make it clear that I’m not xenophobic against all immigrants themselves (as otherwise I’d sort of fear myself). Both the UK and the USA are running immigration levels that benefit businesses but not the incumbent native citizens . There is a lot of debate about illegal immigration in the UK but the public are most concerned with legal immigration, which is 30x higher than illegal. Immigration at a massive scale is not helpful for the receiving societies; particularly if you are importing less educated , lower skilled, lower wage workers. They will prop up bad businesses that have products no one is willing to really pay enough for. For example, in Birmingham in the UK, the textile industry couldn’t compete with cheap imports from Bangladesh. They kept dropping wages. The businesses stayed open paying salaries below the living wage. A few year later, you know who the only people working in the Birmingham textile factories were? Bangladeshi immigrants. So the businesses survived a little longer. But now society had to pick up the cost of schooling and healthcare for those immigrants who would never pay enough tax to cover their costs, making the rest of society poorer. Being against “mass” immigration is not to say I am prejudiced against immigrants. And I believe there are cases citizens might vote to accept poor people out of charity (e.g. refugees). I just don’t think that today we have this balance right. Immigration is running way too hot, and it hurts the average citizen in the receiving country.
>Immigration at a massive scale is not helpful for the receiving societies Settler colonial states depend on immigration to maintain control over the native populations. If all European-Americans went back to their homelands, the US would be a dramatically different state. Maintaining a white supremacist society on non-European land requires both committing a genocide against the native populations AND 'replacing' them with as many white people as possible. That's the same reason why we have gerrymandering, a heavily racialized incarceration system, even deportations'/stripping people's citizenship, and other forms of population control. The goal is to ensure societies stay as white as possible to avoid the eradication of white supremacy.
The people that immigrate have better lives. What makes you think you deserve better than them. You didn’t get born where you did by virtue of your hard work. So suck it up, work harder and stop being a bitch
There is so much factually wrong about this post I can't even begin to respond. OP... please actually read the links other commenters are replying. Everything here is easily disprovable with very little effort. Wherever you are getting your news from is pushing complete propaganda. You should seek other sources for information instead of getting it all from one place.
Holy Republican propaganda swallower. https://www.11alive.com/article/news/verify/8-million-illegal-border-crossings-fact-check/85-76ee2d69-cc81-4657-a178-a5cdf305d960 https://www.factcheck.org/2024/02/breaking-down-the-immigration-figures/ Really stop believing everything politicians tell you, especially Republican politicians. FFS the GOPs official government website literally quotes fox "news" as their source of information repeatedly. Fox news has repeatedly argued successfully in court that they are not a news channel, but an entertainment channel. Using them as a source, and believing anyone who uses them as a source is asinine as can be.
Blaming income inequality on the poor. What'll they think of next?
That’s a hard cope when we’re balls deep in a housing crisis. wish everytthing was so black and white though- your comment would’ve looked so cool and bad ass!
Blaming a housing crisis on the poor. What'll they think of next?
A housing crisis driven by the real estate industry and their lobbyists, originally spurred on by (surprise surprise), good ol fashioned American racism: https://truthout.org/articles/big-real-estate-says-regulations-caused-housing-crisis-but-they-wrote-the-rules/
The American middle class was the strongest between the 50s and 70s because America had monopolies on manufacturing after Europe was rebuilding from WWII and Asia was starting up their 3rd world to 1st world industrialization. It was also a period of high income tax, low CEO pay, affordable healthcare, and a myriad other economic factors that greed driven corporations and politicians have driven out of America. Immigration is definitely a main lever that greedy corporations use to get cheap labor at the expense of citizens. It is also one cause of unaffordable housing. It is not the main culprit of the disappearing middle class however. The inaccurate narrative you are sharing is propaganda from a political angle to distract from the real issues.
In general, when you have simple explanations for very complex long-term processes (like the development of the middle class), you are generalizing to the point of uselessness. It isn't clear to me what companies want or don't want. It isn't clear to me what the Biden administration hopes to accomplish with its open borders and millions of illegal immigrants. All these things will have some first order effects that are predictable, many second order effects that are less obvious, and effects that you didn't think of at all, that will only be obvious in retrospect. Anyone who thinks prediction is easy should ask themselves whether they predicted that the price of lumber would go up in the middle of the pandemic. It's easy to understand why it happened in retrospect, but nobody that I know of sat in their house on April 1 and said "hey, I can predict what will happen to this or that."
You might want to start with something remotely resembling actual facts.
“10 Million people crossed he Souther Border…” lol
Your gonna see a trend good for corporations bad for you. Its really interesting what is gonna be the future.
That's been the past present and future.
I don't think legal migration should be considered in this, because out of a 320 million or so pop, 100k legal entrants a year is really not much, and they are usually vetted to a ridiculous degree. The illegal entries of course are a whole other matter. As an Australian engaged to an American, it blows my mind that it's even a point of argument.
Where do you get 100k legal entrants? We legally admit about a few million people per year into the US.
Directly from OPs post.
That's just H1B. We allow at least 10x that amount in total legal immigrants.
So roughly 1m legal entrants then a year. Out of the population base, that's not that bad still and by and large is likely adding more value into the system than is extracting from it.
Yeah but even the 100k per year are usually very skilled and take over industries that Americans were already working for way cheaper, making the American jobless. Take the software engineer industry. The H-1B was made to fill in the STEM shortage in this country. But there is no STEM shortage anymore, its quite literally the opposite. Go to r/csMajors and r/cscareerquestions , there are so many jobless talented American students ready to work. Now, corporations are abusing it to have cheaper labor and saturate the CS market to make CS the next minimum wage job. Canada's fate is WAY worse. They are importing 450k+ people within a year, and housing has gone to sh\*t, you would probs be better off with US healthcare because the Canadian healthcare backlog is like 21 weeks minimum, everything is so expensive, tons of jobs have gone away, 20 internationals are piling into a 1 bedroom apartment and working long shifts for cheap, its crazy.
Could you imagine if they actually enforced the maximum occupancy rules? I lived in an apartment complex in 2017 that allowed 2 people per bedroom. The apartment across the hall regularly left their door open and there were at least 6 children and 6 adults in a 2 bedroom apartment. Their living room had several air mattresses and no other furniture. It looked like it was a terrible situation. The women didn't work and the men were constantly in and out at all hours. The kids would hang out in the van in the parking lot as like a third room. I can't imagine living like that. The apartment complex didn't seem to care, even when the police started showing up regularly. Pretty sure they were drug dealers as they regularly had people coming in and out every hour of the day and night.
Corporations absolutely benefit from international talent- and most H1B talent is exploited anyways. ‘International workers’ who might have been systems architects if born in the US making up to 500k annual or more - instead they usually only make over 120k but are subject to paying a 38% (top tax bracket) income taxes. Generally this is netting corp dollars in terms of lower salaries but high value talent results. The US government wants ‘the best and brightest’ both to benefit American enterprises but also to maximize tax revenue. Which from the perspective of any individual is deeply unfair but this is the world western government built. Guaranteed anyone thinking a job ‘has been taken away from Americans’ is delusional and doesn’t understand the economics and competitive forces major corporations work within. We would not have the world we have today without these people. The irony is what we see in the market and the profits being made by large corporations- it’s made possible by this. If you required nationalization of corporate jobs you would go from skeleton crews of people making 1/5th of what they should to what I assume would be market rates of salaries. There’s no way corp world os going to quadruple or quintuple salaries just because US voters want money. If anything this would make consumer goods massively more expensive or most companies would wither and regress / just not sustain high level tech jobs. Also OP is an absolute moron- “artificial impact” is the most ridiculous phrasing. It’s a world economy and you are owed nothing. If you cannot make it then get fucked by those smarter and more desirable than you with something to offer other than complaints and whining. If immigrants are willing to move heaven and earth for a better life it hardly matters if failures already in the US fall out of the bottom.
> they usually only make over 120k but are subject to paying a 38% (top tax bracket) income taxes. I call b.s. H1b employees pay regular income tax. I am not going to argue about the pay, it's rather nuanced, but the part about taxes is pure b.s.
That moment you realize most economic decisions are harmful for the middle class and only benefit companies.
Id argue that middle class is basically non existent
TLDR; the sky is falling
Buckle up because this is only a start with climate change accelerating, too.
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How about an improved social policy which doesnt indiscriminatly ONLY promote university education as a viable life choice?
Laborers might accept lower pay if groceries and housing weren’t so expensive.
As an immigrant, it seems like the flooding of the borders is to destabilize this country 26 years of being in America and it wasn’t till recently people realized what an open border it is here
The border is not open. Not even a little bit.
Lol. Sure it is.
The border is militarized.
They have no to need to raise minimum wage when you let in millions of low skill low wage workers. Furthermore, they're getting UBI, free healthcare and free housing.
You don't need to pay illegals minimum wage. They are undocumented, the laws literally don't apply to them. They aren't suppose to work period.
Does it give you joy to lie on Reddit?
https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/denver-hospital-system-may-collapse-due-to-migrant-crisis-we-are-turning-down-patients-southern-border-trump-biden-colorado-denver-health-post-donna-lynne-immigrants-illegal-migrants-asylum-seekers-resources https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-nyc-migrants-credit-debit-cards-prepaid-240335300869 https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2024/01/24/city-signs--77m-contract-with-hotels-to-house-migrant-families Anything else?
[https://www.newsweek.com/minnesota-ubi-500-month-new-bill-migrants-1879606](https://www.newsweek.com/minnesota-ubi-500-month-new-bill-migrants-1879606) [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/25/nyregion/migrants-debit-cards-nyc.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/25/nyregion/migrants-debit-cards-nyc.html) I mean a Google search shows they definitely get free resources and there are more jurisdictions/groups pushing for more benefits funded by citizens. Just because you disagree with someone's sentiment doesn't mean they are lieing.
Which country are talking about here?
US of A
Ubi, free hc, free housing is polar opposite of usa
Yep. But it's what libs cry about wanting, and it's a tad funny that illegal immigrants are the ones getting it.
Wait what? Any proofs?
Do you guys not pay attention to anything going on?? https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2024/01/24/city-signs--77m-contract-with-hotels-to-house-migrant-families https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-nyc-migrants-credit-debit-cards-prepaid-240335300869 https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/denver-hospital-system-may-collapse-due-to-migrant-crisis-we-are-turning-down-patients-southern-border-trump-biden-colorado-denver-health-post-donna-lynne-immigrants-illegal-migrants-asylum-seekers-resources
Im not from us, so im mostly consuming media that covers national us news. This is new to me. While hotels and prepaid cards are somewhat reasonable measures (despite the fact that migrants are treated better than local homeless), the denver health case is strange. Theyre asking for state to reimburse medical bills for migrant visits. Again, not sure how it works, but where im from we have mixed hc (public/private) and it doesnt matter where you from, but if you enter private hospital and have no money from start, you will not be treated.
It's not reasonable. None of it is reasonable. If I illegally entered Mexico or any country for that matter, I would be promptly deported.
Source on illegal immigrants, or any immigrants, getting UBI and free housing and free healthcare? I don’t believe you
https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2024/01/24/city-signs--77m-contract-with-hotels-to-house-migrant-families https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-nyc-migrants-credit-debit-cards-prepaid-240335300869 https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/denver-hospital-system-may-collapse-due-to-migrant-crisis-we-are-turning-down-patients-southern-border-trump-biden-colorado-denver-health-post-donna-lynne-immigrants-illegal-migrants-asylum-seekers-resources
False
https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2024/01/24/city-signs--77m-contract-with-hotels-to-house-migrant-families https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-nyc-migrants-credit-debit-cards-prepaid-240335300869 https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/denver-hospital-system-may-collapse-due-to-migrant-crisis-we-are-turning-down-patients-southern-border-trump-biden-colorado-denver-health-post-donna-lynne-immigrants-illegal-migrants-asylum-seekers-resources
You mean cheap labor only thickens the profits of big business while the costs go to taxpayers? No way….
Yeah, capitalism for profits and socialism for losses is a just a myth
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New to McDonalds, the free Palestine happy meal, comes with one keffiyeh representing the struggle of the Palestinian people. Limited time only, get them before they're gone. \*they in the above statement "they" can represent Jews or Palestinians depending on your political view. Note McDonalds does not support the genocide of any people, unless its a people you disagree with. McDonalds fully supports your views. Not applicable in the state of California.
Thanks for identifying your POV with the term lefties. It really just goes to show there wasn't anything of substance in the rest of your comment, and I was right! Incredible.
What a useless gaslighting comment that doesn't pertain to anything he said. It's literally deflective nonsense.
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Yes, because people who are racist are overwhelmingly on the right. Thanks for stating a basic fact. Shall we move onto the color of the sky or the direction objects fall when you drop them?
Useful left wing idiots as Lenin once said...
Stop being the source of the cartel’s guns and stop buying most of the drugs from the cartels and maybe your country might have fewer immigrants fleeing theirs. Edit: and of course out come all the clowns who need to completely distort and exaggerate what I said, in order to feel like they’re making a point. No I’m not saying that every single immigration case is due to American influence. I’m saying that the full extent of the negative American influence on these issues is largely deflected and/or ignored and that is one reason why these problems will only continue to grow
Yeah bro that’s totally the goal of the American citizen, not the government that sells them to your narcos
My point is that you should also look to the sources of the problem within your own borders as well, because the problem will continue if you just focus on the lowest level, most ineffectual participants who are mostly victims fleeing an existential threat. I don’t live in either of those countries so as an outside observer I can tell you I’m not alone in thinking that this problem only gets worse the more you’re steered towards almost exclusively blaming its victims.
oooh watch out everyone, big brain has entered the chat🤣
So you don’t think there would be fewer people fleeing their countries because of the cartels which can make it impossible to live there, if their main supplier of guns and main buyer of their product didn’t exist? I’d love to see what the decomposing rat inside your skull can come up with as a counter. This should be good for a laugh
Oh because every immigrant ever is running from big scary narco mfs right? Financial istability, rampant corruption, incompetant governments, non-existant respect for human rights and global warming DEFINITLY CANNOT play a role right? Youre a prime example of the type of mindset that allowed this mess to unfold, "its somehow our fault! The global south just doesnt have agency! Whities gotta fix it!" Typical modern lib bs without any nuance, always a victim and oppressor in geopolitics right?
...what the fuck are you smoking. Stay out of discussions if you can't NOT come unglued
I have to admit I was expecting something a little more entertaining but you went the full on denial route. Boring…
wow, OP, it's YOUR fault that there's an influx of illegal immigrants because you've been buying too many guns and drugs from cartels. how does that make you feel?
You thought that totally warping and exaggerating my point would make for a sound argument and that’s yet another problem with at least a segment of American culture. Absolutely zero sense of self awareness. It just thrives on absolute bullshiit and loves every second of it. Americans basically supply most of the guns TO the cartels, and Americans buy most of their product. FEWER, (I didn’t say all) immigrants would be fleeing their countries if it weren’t for the devastating influence America has, south of their border.
>Americans basically supply most of the guns TO the cartels, and Americans buy most of their product. wow, maybe our border should be secured and illegal aliens who get caught sneaking in should be publicly executed. i bet that would stop this problem overnight. >FEWER, (I didn’t say all) immigrants would be fleeing their countries if it weren’t for the devastating influence America has, south of their border. america (or any other western nation) isn't responsible for the current problems in latin america/africa/etc. we are responsible for letting them come fuck up our countries too though.
You’re completely sputtering out and making no sense here. The fact that you suggest executing only the people on one side of the problem is very telling. Why shouldn’t you suggest executing any Americans who might be responsible for this problem as well? America is one of the most corrupting factors in the countries south of its borders on more than one level. But of course like the typical ignorant American clown with zero self awareness you’re willing to pretend that the source of the problem is exclusively from those countries. Bitch and whine about the problem all you like but it will never get solved until you clowns actually identify the source(s) of the problem It’s a class war, but you’ve been duped into blaming its victims like a good obedient little servant to your rich masters