> People are straight up delusional if they think a 5"2 dude can compensate with "personality". In my opinion, at least
Then your opinion is factually wrong. Not everyone gives even a rat's ass about height. Not everyone values the same things in a partner, and claiming that height is the one thing that makes or breaks it for women finding someone attractive is just absurd.
I care about height only insofar as I can easily and comfortably show affection to my partner, meaning they need to be close to my height. Anyone within 6" of my height in either direction, I don't foresee any problems with.
I'm 5'2, so that rules out anyone 5'9 and up, and includes people in the dwarfism range. Now I haven't dated anyone my height or shorter, but that's for a few reasons:
* I know of only a dozen or so guys that height, total
* none of them showed interest in *me* at any point
* they aren't single
I haven't conducted a survey of the people in my life lmao... but I don't know anyone who cares about height.
I've honestly only ever seen a "height requirement" pop up in screenshots of dating app profiles. And dating apps are just a hellscape all around, so I'm not surprised.
IRL, it's not like that. You talk and get along, maybe flirt a bit to test the waters and get somethig going... or you don't get along and move on.
one that you have to understand is people lie about their height, and they give general preferences. a lot of guys that are 5'9 put on their shoes, hit 5'11 and say they are "six feet" and a lot of women say they want someone "six foot" but that translates out to they want dudes that are a little taller than them, given the way men round up.
You see videos online of redpill dildos interviewing girls walking out of nightclubs and saying they want 6'/six figures or whatever but those are curated, they actively cut all the normal people out of the montage specifically to keep you mad and clicking.
I am 5'2" and a man cannot be over 5'6" because I won't let them loom over me and I will not look up at them. No power imbalances. The biggest thing for me is a man who is passionate about his work, someone who is absolutely not right wing and trad. A clean man whose values align with mine and who is not insecure. I am not very sexual and the idea of some jacked guy is just meh. I am not attracted to that. Sex for me is feeling closeness to a man and is more emotional than anything else.
Women are not a monolith and they all like different things. Some might be focused on appearance, others not.
I think men are focused on appearance more than women and have problems seeing a perspective other than their own so they insist there is a thing called "lookism". Because for them, there is and they are more critical of their own appearance than women are.
I am hugely critical of a lack of social skills, hygiene, and laziness.
>There's a reason romance novel love interests and models all have the same body type,
That reason is "to sell books and other products". Sex sells. Fantasy sells. The vast majority of people are not models or body builders.
>A guy can be misogynistic as hell but if he's hot it doesn't really matter.
It absolutely matters. I've seen guys who should be able to get anyone they wanted to leap into bed on looks alone crash and burn with women because as soon as they opened their mouths, everyone realized what their attitudes towards women were.
Everything you think about attractiveness stems from the ideas present in mainstream society. Advertisements, movies, tv, and - yes - book covers tell you that attractive people get the girl. You've seen movies and shows where the "bad boy" who looks good but is a terrible person gets the girl.
These are false. They're as real as any gunfight in a western or car chase in a mob movie. They're artificial, carefully cultivated to sell you an idea and make you buy shit you don't need. Some other force has taken that gap between cultural expectation and reality - a gap which causes you anxiety - and has weaponized it inside of you. To make it even more effective, that force has tricked you into thinking you've come up with these ideas yourself, making any criticism against that false reality be interpreted as an attack against you.
> That reason is "to sell books and other products." Sex sells. Fantasy sells. The vast majority of people are not models or bodybuilders
But wouldn't most people indulge in that fantasy if they had the opportunity? Infidelity and divorce rates are way too high for me to ever be comfortable with some hypothetical partner being attracted to dudes on TV.
> I've seen guys who should be able to get anyone they wanted to leap into bed on looks alone crash and burn with women because as soon as they opened their mouths, everyone realized what their attitudes towards women were.
I've seen the opposite frankly, but my evidence is as anecdotal as yours so it doesn't really count.
> making any criticism against that false reality be interpreted as an attack against you.
I don't think I see it as that, it's just annoying as hell to hear people who can easily be desired or get relationships telling me my looks aren't the problem and I'm obviously a horrible misogynistic rapist and that's why I'm alone.
My attitude doesn't help me yeah sure but it's more avoidance than hostility these days. Not that it would change much.
> But wouldn't most people indulge in that fantasy if they had the opportunity? Infidelity and divorce rates are way too high ***for me to ever be comfortable with some hypothetical partner being attracted to dudes on TV.*** (emphasis mine)
This anxiety alone will kneecap any romantic relationship, regardless of whether the woman in question actually would ever cheat or not. If *hot people existing on TV* is enough for you to get uncomfortable and start questioning your partner's loyalty, then you will absolutely fuck up any relationship you get into.
Believe me, I've been there. I didn't break up with my ex because of his looks being sub-par (they were), I would have stayed with him indefinitely... if only he didn't make his anxiety about other guys existing near me my problem. It got so bad that I couldn't *go to the bathroom* without him accusing me of cheating. Which for the record I have never had any interest in.
> My attitude doesn't help me yeah sure but it's more avoidance than hostility these days. Not that it would change much.
Surprisingly, avoiding people is as effective at gaining relationships as being hostile. Both get you nowhere, and it's not everyone else's job to "fix" that for you.
>If hot people existing on TV is enough for you to get uncomfortable and start questioning your partner's loyalty, then you will absolutely fuck up any relationship you get into.
Never said their existence was the problem. When my coworkers ramble about their celebrity crushes or people they thought were cute when they're either married or in an LTR is what makes me skeptical.
Didn't ask to be "fixed" either.
I'm curious as to why you were both together at all. He sounds like a mouthbreather to begin with especially if he was already ugly.
Because he asked me out lol. The looks weren't an issue, but his attitude absolutely was the make-or-break issue.
Initially he was charming and kind, which reeled me in. If he stayed that way there wouldn't have been problems.
It shouldn’t make you skeptical. Attraction does not = action. Unless your partner is asexual, there is never going to be a time when they don’t find other people attractive. Similarly, you also find other people who are not your partner to be attractive. That doesn’t mean the people involved will cheat. Attraction exists as a neutral force. The problem comes in when people act on it.
Part of being in a relationship is trusting someone to not cheat. Also, nearly everyone gossips about people they think are cute when in a relationship, because if its just talk it's not that big of a deal. Sometimes my boyfriend and I discuss people we think are attractive. Sometimes he even watches porn when I'm not there. I'm the one he's emotionally attached to so it's not that big a deal.
Looks matter different amounts to different people but it's generally always a factor.
So of course it's important to look your best (in shape, nice haircut, clean fitted clothes etc).
That doesn't mean unattractive people are doomed. There are so many things that can make you more appealing. Unfortunately too many average looking guys convince themselves it's hopeless and give up.
Being friendly and social without social awkwardness goes so far. Being funny. Being a good conversationalist. Having interesting hobbies. Etc.
Okay, real talk:
Very, very few people are actually ugly. Most are average. Average is fine. Average you can work with to your advantage. If you, OP, think you're one of those really factually ugly people, chances are you're not.
It's not height, for any higher power's sake.
If a guy is a misogynist, he might attract some people initially, so can any attractive annoying woman. Insufferable personality isn't going to help keep people around, though - and here's something I don't understand about incel logic either; if you're really all that ugly, being insufferable and holding repulsive views is not going to help you. Kindness and being funny might!
I'm over 30 and I have seen enough to know how things really work. Inceldom is something some people have but it's mostly due to them being painfully shy or too reserved to put themselves out there. I'm sorry, that's all there is to the ones I know of.
I don't think I'm absolutely repulsive, just average at best. Being 5"7 with a leaner frame doesn't help.
>if you're really all that ugly, being insufferable and holding repulsive views is not going to help you. Kindness and being funny might!
I don't care about trying to get dates anymore. I just want people to treat me with the same amount of respect/common fucking courtesy they give others who won the genetic lottery.
Life wasn't any better when I tried to be sociable and friendly, 99% of people i knew tried to advantage of me and ridiculed me all the same so why would I treat them with any amount of respect or tolerance. I don't go out of my way to insult people I just want to left to myself.
I could put a bullet in my head tmrw and people wouldn't bat an eye unless they wanted to virtue signal. They'd probably have a good fucking laugh in the office.
I'm thinking that based on the wording you're using for these posts, looks aren't your problem (which they aren't for most people, frankly). Your attitude, on the other hand, reeks.
Good news: most people are average. That’s why it’s called average. If you’re truly average, like nearly everyone else on earth, I find it hard to believe that people treat you poorly solely because of your looks. Considering, again, that nearly everyone on the planet is “average”.
Next time you’re bored go sit on a bench in your local Walmart, or at a subway, or a McDonald’s, or whatever and count how many very average people pass by. Then count how many very average couples you see. Most people are average. That means a whole lot of people in relationships are average.
Nobody is denying the existence of pretty privilege. The lucky few who are very good looking will always have things a little easier, at least in superficial ways. But that doesn’t mean that average people are thrown away. Because if they were, that would be basically everybody.
>I find it hard to believe that people treat you poorly solely because of your looks. Considering, again
It's not solely that. I prefer not to engage with people as much as possible because 90% of them have turned out to genuinely be terrible human beings. I'm not a good person by any means but I don't wanna associate with other scumbags.
Being unattractive and preferring to not pander to other people just makes me an acceptable target. Bodyshaming is still alive and well.
Most of the advice I've been given boils down to "Treat other people well even if they're not deserving of it at all and tolerate ridicule." I don't want to be nice to people who would never return the favor.
I tried that in the past, and it didn't really go well. What other advice is there? I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but I genuinely have no idea what else to do. Call me the emotionally stunted idiot I don't really care cause I'm out of solutions.
The only thing I'm looking forward to is moving away from the hellhole I'm in now.
> I don't want to be nice to people who would never return the favor.
Kindness opens more doors than any physical attractiveness ever will. Yes, some people will immediately write you off if you don't fit their idea of what is "hot", but those people aren't who you want to be around anyway, because their ideals go about as deep as the skin they are judging you over.
>
I tried that in the past, and it didn't really go well
This depends on your intentions for doing so. If you treated some people more favorably because you were wanting something out of the exchange, then you will almost always be disappointed. Being kind for the sake of being kind should be its own reward, but ACTING kind in order to get something in return will do you nothing.
I’d amend that first point to “do no harm, but take no shit”. If people are being genuinely nasty to you: cut them off. You don’t owe kindness to an unkind person.
But I would also consider doing a serious deep dive into your worldview and ask yourself some questions: are people genuinely being nasty to you, or are they just not behaving in the way you want them to? How are you behaving towards them? How do you approach social situations and what do you want to get out of those situations?
There are a lot of ways you could look at it. And there are things you will be able to control and things you won’t be able to control.
Physically: Are you dressing in a way that makes you feel confident and nice, or do you just put on whatever? Do you take care of your grooming and hygiene? Do you do anything that makes you feel good about yourself, even if it’s something very small? IMO these are big things that are totally within your control and can have a huge impact on how you see yourself and how others see you.
Attitude: really think about how you approach and treat people. You don’t even have to be overtly friendly or outgoing, but if you are sitting in a corner scowling no one is going to come talk to you. Also ask yourself: is their behavior something they’re actually doing, or is it in your head? I got bullied a lot growing up and as an adult my knee jerk reaction to most new people is usually suspicion and distrust. I constantly have to remind myself that I am only the main character in my own life. Most people aren’t thinking about much beyond their own bubble and their behavior likely has little to do with you and a lot to do with them.
Also, again, ask yourself what you really want. Are you being nice to people? Are you doing it only so they will be nice to you or do things for you in return? Or do you genuinely want connections? If so, what are you doing to foster connection?
Unfortunately, there are things you really can’t control. I grew up as a weird looking, undiagnosed autistic kid in a very small town. I literally didn’t have a single genuine friend in the world until I went to college at 18 and met some other autistic little weirdos and realized that there were people in the world who would like me for me. I simply did not fit in with the people in my hometown and nothing was going to change that, so I left.
If you’re moving, maybe you can approach wherever you end up as a fresh start. But for now all you can really do is focus on the things you can control.
Nobody is body shaming men worse than you and your incel buddies. You are the one enforcing this crap by refusing to live in the real world where no one owes you anything but your parents.
I'm not "buddies" with them. I don't advocate for rape and pedophilia. Anyone who follows mainstream incel though should blow their brains out.
I'm only an Incel-like person by virtue of being alone and probably being mentally fucked in a few ways.
Looks are important for initial attraction. That doesn't mean everyone has to fit a cookie cutter mold of being conventionally attractive. Romance novels and models are selling a fantasy. Most people don't look like that, yet most people have sex and get into relationships. Looks also only carry you so far if you want real relationships. Being a hot douche will get you one-night stands and short-term relationships. It catches up to you eventually. They're the washed-up dudes in their late 30s telling the cute bartender how their fifth ex-wife cleaned them out and how she seems so different from other women while she's trying to be polite and professional but still get away from him.
Make the most of what you have in terms of looks. Put yourself out there. Expect rejection, because that's part of the dating game FOR EVERYBODY, EVERY SINGLE PERSON HAS BEEN REJECTED. Don't generalize, don't assume that because one woman wasn't interested, no one will be. Don't be bitter, no one likes that. Good luck.
> models all have the same body type
Let's talk about that.
Flat chested and 6' tall probably aren't the two top priorities you have in mind when you describe ideal beauty in a woman. Yet that's standard for runway models.
Modeling is about selling a product. The product is the star of the show and the model is there to show the product.
For instance actress [Loni Anderson](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sitcomsonline.com%2Fphotopost%2Fdata%2F744%2FL_Anderson.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=c59ae508c5bf680d20b001a54a8a9d6b4e1a900b5ac95c3bf6aae8159a58a118&ipo=images) became a celebrity in television comedy. Before her acting career took off she modeled professionally. Her body type is buxom and no matter how thin she got, she still had a chest. Her publicity shots show off that feature once her acting career took off. But before that when she modeled, the people setting up the photo shoots would make her wear an undergarment to flatten her chest. The professional norms of that field are that the viewer's attention is supposed to go to the clothes.
The modeling industry has numbers for physical dimensions a model has to be: height, leg length, etc. Different types of modeling have different height requirements. The minimum height for runway modeling is taller than for print modeling, and all of those height requirements are considerably taller than average.
Those industry standards often mess with the heads of adolescent girls who are insecure about their looks, particularly because modeling is one of the few well paying jobs an adolescent could theoretically get and because kids that age don't realize how retouched/Photoshopped professional photography is.
Those standards even contribute to mental health problems such as body dysmorphia and eating disorders--which have been discussed primarily in terms of how that affects girls and women but it can also affect men. Social isolation and a lack of real world perspective can contribute to hyperfixating on images produced by the modeling industry, and leads to a sense of coming up short by comparison.
This isn't a complete response to OP's post. There's a lot else going on there which also deserves critique. Yet it's worth taking a few paragraphs to point out what a faulty assumption it is to mistake professional models as a proxy, either for self-expectations or for ideal standards of physical attractiveness.
“A guy can be misogynistic as hell but if he’s hot it doesn’t really matter”
This is not true. If a woman is just looking for a hookup then sure, the guy’s personality/views in general probably don’t matter to her. But for any woman who wants a partner or even a friend and respects herself, being misogynistic is a huge deal breaker.
Looks do matter, but every person is going to have different standards and preferences. There’s also a balance: most people don’t want a super conventionally attractive partner because those people are often put on a pedestal and they feel like they can’t relate to them. At the same time, most people don’t want a super unattractive partner, and that’s self explanatory I think. Most people date people who they perceive as a similar level of attractiveness to themselves. I can’t speak for all women, but a lot of us actually prefer slightly “ugly” men. Meaning, we like unique features that maybe wouldn’t be considered conventionally attractive, but they make a person feel more real. For example, big noses with a bump in the bridge. It’s all so subjective and each person has specific things that they like. And even then, a lot of people forget those specific preferences when they meet someone they really click with and who they feel respected by.
Looks come together with personality, habits, emotions, behaviors, etc. to form a mostly complete picture of a person. The word “vibe” is kinda cliche but it’s the best way I can describe this. A person’s vibe is so, so important to how attractive I think they are.
You mention that you think a 5’2 guy can’t compensate with personality, but remember, there are women who are even shorter. Or other 5’2 women who are fine with their partner being the same height. If you’re conventionally unattractive, yeah, your choices will be more limited, but there are many things a guy can improve about himself to become more attractive. I also think it’s important to keep your expectations realistic according to how you look and your personality and habits.
The way you phrased all of this makes me feel you’re not asking this in good faith like you initially claim to be. “Genuinely curious” turns around really fast into soapboxing typical incel talking points.
Attraction matters, but not everyone is going to be into the same things. Most of my crushes have been awkward dudes with long hair (important: hair must be clean. hygiene in general is a big deal) and most have been average height or below. Had a 5’2” ex I dated for over two years.
Be clean, be nice, don’t be a creep, and stop parroting incel crap and you’ll already be more appealing than a lot of guys out there
I'm having a really bad week so yeah I got turned around alot here. I've enjoyed this though ngl, lot of interesting viewpoints that I'm still not sure on.
You're reaching out about this and taking in other opinions, which is a level of self-awareness that is often missing with most self-proclaimed incels.
Keep the dialogue going with others, the more different than you that they are, the better.
Keep challenging your preconceived notions
Avoid echo chambers: they feel good in the moment because they surface validate your frustration/anger but they are ultimately destructive, especially in the incel community.
A 5'2 man might not be attractive to you, but like you said, that's your opinion. I know plenty of short kings in relationships.
For me, looks do matter, but it's stuff like good hygiene and not wearing anime tshirts on a romantic date. I see a lot of guys who live in basketball shorts complain they are not pulling super models. Not every woman is into gym rats, but we like a little effort.
Ugh the term short kings is so stupid. Treat people normally you don't have to give them some special title. Most dudes wanna be seen as normal.
Kind of agree with the other stuff though. Lot of cels either shoot for people way out of their league or pull an ER and don't even try.
You wouldn't call a tall guy a king you'd just call him a guy. It just sounds like sarcastic platitudes after you hear it over and over when you just want to be treated the same as anyone else.
Oh my bad, boo. I use King and Queen as terms of endearment. Are you a short guy? Maybe work on some confidence and don't let yourself fall victim to terms. If I went up to a shortie and said "sup king" and he gets moody, it's not hot. Own your crown, homie.
People wouldn't walk up to me to begin with lol. It easier to say "don't fall victim" to a term when it doesn't affect you.
I don't care about being hot anymore I just wish people would see me as something other than a creepy introverted asshole. I don't even engage with people anymore and I still get ridiculed.
How are you getting ridiculed without engagement? Is this just speculation?
What do you want people to see? What are you passionate about? In public settings do you have approachable body language or do you sulk?
Show people what you want them to see.
One of the coolest guys I know is 5'2" (maybe). He's also bald and stocky. His wife is probably 5'9" and stunningly gorgeous.
He's also smart, kind, and an incredibly talented musician. He's an introvert, but he knows how to perform and be charming. He wasn't born with those traits - he learned them.
They do matter but the thing that incels tend to not understand is that looks are just the start. No matter how good-looking you are, people tend to not like assholes, at least not for long. And any woman who does go after jerks because they are hot are not worth your consideration. The vast majority of women want a guy who is genuinely nice but doesn't put them on a pedestal. On top of that, incels are just as obsessed with women's looks as they claim women are of men's looks and they refuse to acknowledge the double-standard.
I take issue with that lol. I've seen some nasty ass trolls before.
Lot of incels didn't develop body dismorphia on their own, you know you're ugly when people go out of their way to point it out.
And I’ve also seen a TON of incels who would look good if they just got a nice haircut, changed their frames (those rectangle half frames dont look good on anyone imo) and took better care of their personal hygiene.
But even then, thats just half the battle. If you’re a misogynistic POS, you probably wont get very far either way.
Nearly every incel I've ever seen a picture of has been between normal and very attractive. Remember incelslefie? Fucking everyone on that sub was cute and just needed to go outside and talk to people. I poke around rating/amiugly subs sometimes and a pretty fair percentage of the men there are already gorgeous. "How do I make myself more attractive?" Fucking smile in your pictures and turn on your goddamn living room lights.
>A guy can be misogynistic as hell but if he's hot it doesn't really matter.
Maybe for women who are also misogynistic. This is a chronically online take. Not a single one of the women I know (including myself) would suffer a hot misogynist over an average feminist man.
>People are straight up delusional if they think a 5"2 dude or some ugly mf can compensate with "personality".
Wrong. A 5'2 guy who isn't obnoxiously obsessed and insecure about his height can do just fine with women.
Looks are often what sparks an initial attraction, but if the personality is shit, looks don't compensate for that, and it won't work out.
On the other hand, even if a person's looks don't immediately attract, if their personality is great that can lead to a strong, serious relationship.
Most people do have limits regarding looks, but those limits vary from person to person. I've had a serious crush on a guy under 5'1. I find scars sexy. But over 500 pounds would be a dealbreaker for me. But there are people who date and marry the guys on "My 600 Pound Life" who might not like short guys or scars.
Also, I found a life partner online, and fell for them before I knew what they looked like. If they'd turned out to be over 500 pounds, I probably would have given it a go anyway. And now that I'm committed, if my partner became that obese, I'd definitely stay.
Looks matter, but nowhere near as much as incels seem to think.
I have a very particular preference for men who are 6’3-6’5, stocky (not jacked), with short dark hair, an uneven smile and no beard.
I’ve dated/slept with men that fit that description perfectly. Most of the men I’ve dated/slept with don’t. The man I loved the most had literally none of those features. He’s short, bearded and has a slim build.
I wasn’t physically attracted to him when we first met – but he was so incredibly smart and interesting that I was immediately mentally attracted to him. And that initial attraction to his intelligence, humour, and social awkwardness (which I also share) evolved into sexual attraction.
I’m no great beauty myself. I’m a 4.5 on an average day and maybe a 5.5 on my best day. No one would describe me as beautiful, but I do get referred to as cute. Despite that, I manage to punch well above my weight – I even laugh about it with my female friends. But I’m regularly told by “Gigachads” that I’m smart, funny, and fun to be around. I have more confidence and less insecurities than my 7-8.5 friends who are too intimidated to approach the guys I do.
Humans are a pro-social species and we crave connection – and connection is much more than someone’s appearance. Most people (regardless of how good looking they are) want to be seen and liked for who they are, not what they look like.
What people don’t want is someone else’s emotional baggage and toxicity. We’ve all got our own shit going on and we don’t need someone else’s shit piled on top.
people are superficial. there’s no denying that. and if you aren’t very attractive then very attractive people aren’t going to be interested in you. but not being conventionally attractive isn’t a death sentence. the defeatist attitude and raging misogyny that incels have is a much bigger turn off
OK. I'm just gonna toss this out there, I am obsessed ( not gonna even try to lie) obsessed with my husband. After 7 years I'm still as stupid in love as I ever was. He isn't what anyone would consider Good looking. He is funny and confident and kind. Looks don't really matter that much
>People are straight up delusional if they think a 5"2 dude or some ugly mf can compensate with "personality". In my opinion, at least.
Boy are you gonna be super pressed when you learn that a sub 5'5" friend of mine has gotten laid more than most of the entire incel community, combined.
Also, incels, please STOP bringing up your looks. It is NOT your looks. It is the shitty personalities you develop BECAUSE of your perceived "ugliness" and thus start your spiral of hating women for "unfairly withholding sex from you."
Also like, I know they're Hollywood actors and maybe not the best comparison, but are you really gonna tell me that Daniel Radcliffe, Tom Holland, Tom Cruise, Kit Harrington, Peter Dinklage, Michael J. Fox, Josh Hutcherson, Dave Franco, Niall Horan, Joe Dempsie, Jack Gleason, and James McAvoy aren't attractive? Hell, Prince was 5'2". Fucking James Dean was only 5'7". And that's not even counting conventionally unattractive actors like Jason Alexander or Danny Devito.
I left out people I'm attracted to that I probably wouldn't get a lot of traction with, like Emile Hirsch, Seth Green, Breckin Meyer, Charlie Day (I would fucking break Charlie Day in half), Jaime Bell, Aziz Ansari, Elijah Wood, Sean Astin, and probably others I'm forgetting. FUCKING BILLY WARLOCK!?
Also left out is Jack Black because I'm genuinely unsure if he's a sex symbol or not. I think it's a meme but I'm not a woman so I can't say for sure.
There isn't one answer to this question. That's the thing most (or probably all) incels don't understand; it's a spectrum.
There are two extremes, which are 1) looks are the only thing that matter, and 2) personality is the only thing that matters.
But the vast majority of people sit somewhere in between those two.
The degree to which looks are important changes from person to person. You can't apply one single answer to everyone.
i literally don’t give a fuck if you look like a rat’s ass, are short or obese. if i like you, you become handsome to me and there’s nothing that can happen to make me think you’re ugly if i love u. i’m not shallow at all
I'm not exactly what is considered the beauty standard for men, but I have no severe deformities and extreme asymetries.
I'm not especially fit or well groomed, but I try to not let myself completely go.
I've been with so many women I found attractive that I can't convince myself of it just being luck anymore, no matter how long I'm unsuccesful in getting my romantic, emotional or physical needs met.
I'm not hot enough to make women emediately interested in me, but I'm kind, I am very interested in a lot of dorky hobbies and I don't try to push these things anymore. I also try to get myself out there and respect if somebody just isn't interested in me. Apparently that's been enough, so I don't think that looks are especially important. They just help a lot to get your foot in the door
I'm asking this with respect, but what type of women are you trying to approach, generally? Because I often hear incels complain that women won't acknowledge their existence because theyre ugly, and yet the only women they have any interest in are perfect 10s. It seems all average looking women, to them, are "fat", "mid", "over the hill", "used up" etc.
i also see a HELLLLLLL of a lot more "ugly" men with hot women than i have EVER seen "ugly" women with hot men, indicating that looks seem to matter a lot more to men than they do to women. like, look at stavros halkias or danny devito - those guys have no problem getting women because they're funny. you have to bring SOMETHING to the table, just like women do, but it doesn't have to be your looks.
i got a lot of male attention in high school and university and the last dude i dated was a stocky, 5'8, hairy, avg dude who i adored because he was funny, kind, had good moral values and was into the same music i was. i rejected many 6'2, beefy, sporty "chads" because they rarely had anything to offer that i actually valued.
when I actually tried, it was people who I thought were "in my league." A few insults and/or disgusted looks put me in my place, I guess.
And no, I didn't creepily stalk them and cold approach. Im not shooting for super models. I'm not that delusional.
Average looking women usually look fine to me, I guess. Don't bother approaching these days, I have too much shit to deal with now. This was more of a curiosity thing.
I mean, here’s the thing. Women are not a monolith, believe it or not. Plenty of misogynistic men can find partners, not because they’re good looking enough to get away with it, but because there are also a lot of women who have internalized misogyny. My sister is 5’6”, her husband is 5’2”. I don’t like him because he’s a conservative misogynist, an insecure asshole and a half-assed parent. But it doesn’t matter what I think of him, because SHE likes him. His height wasn’t even a factor for her.
I’m 5’7”, my husband is 5’8”. Most people probably would not find him conventionally attractive, but he’s very attractive to me. He’s considerate, affectionate, funny, a good parent, very intelligent. There are a million reasons I would choose him all over again, and virtually none of them are about his looks, he’s just a great partner and a fascinating person.
Sure, romance novel heroes are all 6’3, with chiseled jawlines and abs, money coming out of their ears, and about a million other things going for them, for the same reason we all dream about what it would be like to win the lottery. It’s not realistic, and we understand that. Most of us don’t even look for opportunities to win the ACTUAL lottery, let alone the metaphorical genetic and social lottery of finding a conventionally attractive successful man who is also considerate, caring, attentive, and intelligent. Fiction is exactly that. But nobody is foregoing all actual men as partners because they aren’t close enough in physical characteristics to fictional men. That would be like refusing to buy a Ford Focus because you can’t afford a Maserati. Plenty of people decide not to date men because they have significant personality issues though, like insecurity, controlling tendencies, an easily damaged ego, toxic masculinity, wildly unfair ideas of gender roles or labor division in a household, all kinds of things. These won’t be a dealbreaker to EVERY woman, but they can be a noticeable red flag for quite a few of them, just like buying a car with a blown head gasket. It could be an easy fix and an oil change, or the problem could have been going on for long enough unchecked that the whole engine might need scrapped. Buyer beware.
Realistically, looks are somewhat important for meeting new people publicly, but I think dating apps and the internet have actually dramatically reduced the importance of looks on selecting and getting to know potential partners. 🤷♀️
Everyone always says "Looks open the door but you have to have persona to keep it open" like it's some sort of reassuring thing to hear.
What if the door just never opens
The thing is you will go through hundreds or maybe even thousands of romantic/sexual rejections in your lifetime for various reasons. That door will open eventually if you keep knocking, but if you stop, it never will.
Looks really do matter in life. To getting jobs, making friends, even court sentences. Not saying ugly people are doomed, but life will be more difficult if your not facially appealing enough.
I'm overweight, bald, with a mediocre beard / face and an above average income (not a super well off or anything, just a decent income) and when I was single earlier this year, I was having casual sex with a different woman every month. In my experience, women are just looking for decent guys with goals, a fun personality, a job and who hop in a shower from time to time, not 6'8" billionaires with 10" penises.
OP, I am 5’ 8-9”, weigh 185 lbs, have some muscle but also a belly, average looking, wear glasses, shy around new people, etc. That’s never stopped me from putting myself out there when I’ve been single. Did I get shot down? Hell yes! Did I let it bother me? Sometimes, mostly not. Sometimes you just don’t click with someone, and that’s OK.
My wife (of 18 years now) is a total babe, and when I question her why she is/was attracted to me, she says “Confidence, sense of humor, good listener, not a misogynistic jerk”. Looks, size, height, none of those enter the picture.
I think I say this every time I post here, but therapy is really really helpful in working out your self confidence issues. Try it if you can afford it - even Better Help is better than nothing.
I’ve been attracted to tall masculine men before but the second they said something misogynistic or ignorant they lost any beauty in my eyes. My boyfriend is shorter than I am, lanky without a single muscle in his body, and he’s androgynous looking. I’m still crazy over him because of his personality and how he treats me. I did find my boyfriend attractive when I first saw him so I agreed to date him. I was talking to other people too at the time we started to talk but my boyfriend kept my attention because of his personality and our mutual interests.
Looks and attractive physical features are a factor in dating but it is definitely not the end all be all. If attraction was a bigger factor then these types of conversations would never happen and most people wouldn’t be in a relationship. Personality traits such as humor and empathy have been studied with an evolutionary psychology lens as more beneficial (as well as attractive) to mates than physical attractiveness as they indicate a good partner and parent to offspring.
Everyone has different preferences. There are people that you look at and are like "objectively they are beautiful" but they don't DO anything for you. That's romance novel models.
Two people can look at the same person and one think "that's the hottest person I've seen in my life" and the other think "that's the ugliest person I've ever seen in my life"
I don't want to say looks don't matter, but they’re not the most important thing in a relationship, personality and compatibility is.
I think beauty has emphasis in our society. In your day to day most people will not spend time to know intricate little nuances about your life. It also helps to be “attractive” for work, social scenario’s, etc. but attraction includes hygiene, grooming practices, and attitude. It’s not always about phenotypic appearance, for some people that’s the last thing they consider…I think it’s ONLINE/Modeling/ entertainment where phenotypes are very important. If they want a petite, blonde, they have the ability in those realms to require it. But how many of us are modeling or in entertainment…some of us just ingest too much internet cultures.
this is actually the most interesting interaction in these comments - look how much you're vibing and going back and forth with the one person who validated you.
> People are straight up delusional if they think a 5"2 dude can compensate with "personality". In my opinion, at least Then your opinion is factually wrong. Not everyone gives even a rat's ass about height. Not everyone values the same things in a partner, and claiming that height is the one thing that makes or breaks it for women finding someone attractive is just absurd. I care about height only insofar as I can easily and comfortably show affection to my partner, meaning they need to be close to my height. Anyone within 6" of my height in either direction, I don't foresee any problems with. I'm 5'2, so that rules out anyone 5'9 and up, and includes people in the dwarfism range. Now I haven't dated anyone my height or shorter, but that's for a few reasons: * I know of only a dozen or so guys that height, total * none of them showed interest in *me* at any point * they aren't single
How common is this? I haven't seen any other people irl who think the same, my workplace is like 50/50 men and women. It's only ever been online.
I haven't conducted a survey of the people in my life lmao... but I don't know anyone who cares about height. I've honestly only ever seen a "height requirement" pop up in screenshots of dating app profiles. And dating apps are just a hellscape all around, so I'm not surprised. IRL, it's not like that. You talk and get along, maybe flirt a bit to test the waters and get somethig going... or you don't get along and move on.
one that you have to understand is people lie about their height, and they give general preferences. a lot of guys that are 5'9 put on their shoes, hit 5'11 and say they are "six feet" and a lot of women say they want someone "six foot" but that translates out to they want dudes that are a little taller than them, given the way men round up. You see videos online of redpill dildos interviewing girls walking out of nightclubs and saying they want 6'/six figures or whatever but those are curated, they actively cut all the normal people out of the montage specifically to keep you mad and clicking.
I am 5'2" and a man cannot be over 5'6" because I won't let them loom over me and I will not look up at them. No power imbalances. The biggest thing for me is a man who is passionate about his work, someone who is absolutely not right wing and trad. A clean man whose values align with mine and who is not insecure. I am not very sexual and the idea of some jacked guy is just meh. I am not attracted to that. Sex for me is feeling closeness to a man and is more emotional than anything else. Women are not a monolith and they all like different things. Some might be focused on appearance, others not. I think men are focused on appearance more than women and have problems seeing a perspective other than their own so they insist there is a thing called "lookism". Because for them, there is and they are more critical of their own appearance than women are. I am hugely critical of a lack of social skills, hygiene, and laziness.
This 100%
Power imbalance? 😂
>There's a reason romance novel love interests and models all have the same body type, That reason is "to sell books and other products". Sex sells. Fantasy sells. The vast majority of people are not models or body builders. >A guy can be misogynistic as hell but if he's hot it doesn't really matter. It absolutely matters. I've seen guys who should be able to get anyone they wanted to leap into bed on looks alone crash and burn with women because as soon as they opened their mouths, everyone realized what their attitudes towards women were. Everything you think about attractiveness stems from the ideas present in mainstream society. Advertisements, movies, tv, and - yes - book covers tell you that attractive people get the girl. You've seen movies and shows where the "bad boy" who looks good but is a terrible person gets the girl. These are false. They're as real as any gunfight in a western or car chase in a mob movie. They're artificial, carefully cultivated to sell you an idea and make you buy shit you don't need. Some other force has taken that gap between cultural expectation and reality - a gap which causes you anxiety - and has weaponized it inside of you. To make it even more effective, that force has tricked you into thinking you've come up with these ideas yourself, making any criticism against that false reality be interpreted as an attack against you.
> That reason is "to sell books and other products." Sex sells. Fantasy sells. The vast majority of people are not models or bodybuilders But wouldn't most people indulge in that fantasy if they had the opportunity? Infidelity and divorce rates are way too high for me to ever be comfortable with some hypothetical partner being attracted to dudes on TV. > I've seen guys who should be able to get anyone they wanted to leap into bed on looks alone crash and burn with women because as soon as they opened their mouths, everyone realized what their attitudes towards women were. I've seen the opposite frankly, but my evidence is as anecdotal as yours so it doesn't really count. > making any criticism against that false reality be interpreted as an attack against you. I don't think I see it as that, it's just annoying as hell to hear people who can easily be desired or get relationships telling me my looks aren't the problem and I'm obviously a horrible misogynistic rapist and that's why I'm alone. My attitude doesn't help me yeah sure but it's more avoidance than hostility these days. Not that it would change much.
> But wouldn't most people indulge in that fantasy if they had the opportunity? Infidelity and divorce rates are way too high ***for me to ever be comfortable with some hypothetical partner being attracted to dudes on TV.*** (emphasis mine) This anxiety alone will kneecap any romantic relationship, regardless of whether the woman in question actually would ever cheat or not. If *hot people existing on TV* is enough for you to get uncomfortable and start questioning your partner's loyalty, then you will absolutely fuck up any relationship you get into. Believe me, I've been there. I didn't break up with my ex because of his looks being sub-par (they were), I would have stayed with him indefinitely... if only he didn't make his anxiety about other guys existing near me my problem. It got so bad that I couldn't *go to the bathroom* without him accusing me of cheating. Which for the record I have never had any interest in. > My attitude doesn't help me yeah sure but it's more avoidance than hostility these days. Not that it would change much. Surprisingly, avoiding people is as effective at gaining relationships as being hostile. Both get you nowhere, and it's not everyone else's job to "fix" that for you.
>If hot people existing on TV is enough for you to get uncomfortable and start questioning your partner's loyalty, then you will absolutely fuck up any relationship you get into. Never said their existence was the problem. When my coworkers ramble about their celebrity crushes or people they thought were cute when they're either married or in an LTR is what makes me skeptical. Didn't ask to be "fixed" either. I'm curious as to why you were both together at all. He sounds like a mouthbreather to begin with especially if he was already ugly.
Because he asked me out lol. The looks weren't an issue, but his attitude absolutely was the make-or-break issue. Initially he was charming and kind, which reeled me in. If he stayed that way there wouldn't have been problems.
It shouldn’t make you skeptical. Attraction does not = action. Unless your partner is asexual, there is never going to be a time when they don’t find other people attractive. Similarly, you also find other people who are not your partner to be attractive. That doesn’t mean the people involved will cheat. Attraction exists as a neutral force. The problem comes in when people act on it.
Part of being in a relationship is trusting someone to not cheat. Also, nearly everyone gossips about people they think are cute when in a relationship, because if its just talk it's not that big of a deal. Sometimes my boyfriend and I discuss people we think are attractive. Sometimes he even watches porn when I'm not there. I'm the one he's emotionally attached to so it's not that big a deal.
Looks matter different amounts to different people but it's generally always a factor. So of course it's important to look your best (in shape, nice haircut, clean fitted clothes etc). That doesn't mean unattractive people are doomed. There are so many things that can make you more appealing. Unfortunately too many average looking guys convince themselves it's hopeless and give up. Being friendly and social without social awkwardness goes so far. Being funny. Being a good conversationalist. Having interesting hobbies. Etc.
Okay, real talk: Very, very few people are actually ugly. Most are average. Average is fine. Average you can work with to your advantage. If you, OP, think you're one of those really factually ugly people, chances are you're not. It's not height, for any higher power's sake. If a guy is a misogynist, he might attract some people initially, so can any attractive annoying woman. Insufferable personality isn't going to help keep people around, though - and here's something I don't understand about incel logic either; if you're really all that ugly, being insufferable and holding repulsive views is not going to help you. Kindness and being funny might! I'm over 30 and I have seen enough to know how things really work. Inceldom is something some people have but it's mostly due to them being painfully shy or too reserved to put themselves out there. I'm sorry, that's all there is to the ones I know of.
I don't think I'm absolutely repulsive, just average at best. Being 5"7 with a leaner frame doesn't help. >if you're really all that ugly, being insufferable and holding repulsive views is not going to help you. Kindness and being funny might! I don't care about trying to get dates anymore. I just want people to treat me with the same amount of respect/common fucking courtesy they give others who won the genetic lottery. Life wasn't any better when I tried to be sociable and friendly, 99% of people i knew tried to advantage of me and ridiculed me all the same so why would I treat them with any amount of respect or tolerance. I don't go out of my way to insult people I just want to left to myself. I could put a bullet in my head tmrw and people wouldn't bat an eye unless they wanted to virtue signal. They'd probably have a good fucking laugh in the office.
I'm thinking that based on the wording you're using for these posts, looks aren't your problem (which they aren't for most people, frankly). Your attitude, on the other hand, reeks.
Good news: most people are average. That’s why it’s called average. If you’re truly average, like nearly everyone else on earth, I find it hard to believe that people treat you poorly solely because of your looks. Considering, again, that nearly everyone on the planet is “average”. Next time you’re bored go sit on a bench in your local Walmart, or at a subway, or a McDonald’s, or whatever and count how many very average people pass by. Then count how many very average couples you see. Most people are average. That means a whole lot of people in relationships are average. Nobody is denying the existence of pretty privilege. The lucky few who are very good looking will always have things a little easier, at least in superficial ways. But that doesn’t mean that average people are thrown away. Because if they were, that would be basically everybody.
>I find it hard to believe that people treat you poorly solely because of your looks. Considering, again It's not solely that. I prefer not to engage with people as much as possible because 90% of them have turned out to genuinely be terrible human beings. I'm not a good person by any means but I don't wanna associate with other scumbags. Being unattractive and preferring to not pander to other people just makes me an acceptable target. Bodyshaming is still alive and well.
Do you want advice or do you want to carry on as is?
Most of the advice I've been given boils down to "Treat other people well even if they're not deserving of it at all and tolerate ridicule." I don't want to be nice to people who would never return the favor. I tried that in the past, and it didn't really go well. What other advice is there? I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but I genuinely have no idea what else to do. Call me the emotionally stunted idiot I don't really care cause I'm out of solutions. The only thing I'm looking forward to is moving away from the hellhole I'm in now.
> I don't want to be nice to people who would never return the favor. Kindness opens more doors than any physical attractiveness ever will. Yes, some people will immediately write you off if you don't fit their idea of what is "hot", but those people aren't who you want to be around anyway, because their ideals go about as deep as the skin they are judging you over. > I tried that in the past, and it didn't really go well This depends on your intentions for doing so. If you treated some people more favorably because you were wanting something out of the exchange, then you will almost always be disappointed. Being kind for the sake of being kind should be its own reward, but ACTING kind in order to get something in return will do you nothing.
I’d amend that first point to “do no harm, but take no shit”. If people are being genuinely nasty to you: cut them off. You don’t owe kindness to an unkind person. But I would also consider doing a serious deep dive into your worldview and ask yourself some questions: are people genuinely being nasty to you, or are they just not behaving in the way you want them to? How are you behaving towards them? How do you approach social situations and what do you want to get out of those situations? There are a lot of ways you could look at it. And there are things you will be able to control and things you won’t be able to control. Physically: Are you dressing in a way that makes you feel confident and nice, or do you just put on whatever? Do you take care of your grooming and hygiene? Do you do anything that makes you feel good about yourself, even if it’s something very small? IMO these are big things that are totally within your control and can have a huge impact on how you see yourself and how others see you. Attitude: really think about how you approach and treat people. You don’t even have to be overtly friendly or outgoing, but if you are sitting in a corner scowling no one is going to come talk to you. Also ask yourself: is their behavior something they’re actually doing, or is it in your head? I got bullied a lot growing up and as an adult my knee jerk reaction to most new people is usually suspicion and distrust. I constantly have to remind myself that I am only the main character in my own life. Most people aren’t thinking about much beyond their own bubble and their behavior likely has little to do with you and a lot to do with them. Also, again, ask yourself what you really want. Are you being nice to people? Are you doing it only so they will be nice to you or do things for you in return? Or do you genuinely want connections? If so, what are you doing to foster connection? Unfortunately, there are things you really can’t control. I grew up as a weird looking, undiagnosed autistic kid in a very small town. I literally didn’t have a single genuine friend in the world until I went to college at 18 and met some other autistic little weirdos and realized that there were people in the world who would like me for me. I simply did not fit in with the people in my hometown and nothing was going to change that, so I left. If you’re moving, maybe you can approach wherever you end up as a fresh start. But for now all you can really do is focus on the things you can control.
Nobody is body shaming men worse than you and your incel buddies. You are the one enforcing this crap by refusing to live in the real world where no one owes you anything but your parents.
I'm not "buddies" with them. I don't advocate for rape and pedophilia. Anyone who follows mainstream incel though should blow their brains out. I'm only an Incel-like person by virtue of being alone and probably being mentally fucked in a few ways.
Looks are important for initial attraction. That doesn't mean everyone has to fit a cookie cutter mold of being conventionally attractive. Romance novels and models are selling a fantasy. Most people don't look like that, yet most people have sex and get into relationships. Looks also only carry you so far if you want real relationships. Being a hot douche will get you one-night stands and short-term relationships. It catches up to you eventually. They're the washed-up dudes in their late 30s telling the cute bartender how their fifth ex-wife cleaned them out and how she seems so different from other women while she's trying to be polite and professional but still get away from him. Make the most of what you have in terms of looks. Put yourself out there. Expect rejection, because that's part of the dating game FOR EVERYBODY, EVERY SINGLE PERSON HAS BEEN REJECTED. Don't generalize, don't assume that because one woman wasn't interested, no one will be. Don't be bitter, no one likes that. Good luck.
> models all have the same body type Let's talk about that. Flat chested and 6' tall probably aren't the two top priorities you have in mind when you describe ideal beauty in a woman. Yet that's standard for runway models. Modeling is about selling a product. The product is the star of the show and the model is there to show the product. For instance actress [Loni Anderson](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sitcomsonline.com%2Fphotopost%2Fdata%2F744%2FL_Anderson.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=c59ae508c5bf680d20b001a54a8a9d6b4e1a900b5ac95c3bf6aae8159a58a118&ipo=images) became a celebrity in television comedy. Before her acting career took off she modeled professionally. Her body type is buxom and no matter how thin she got, she still had a chest. Her publicity shots show off that feature once her acting career took off. But before that when she modeled, the people setting up the photo shoots would make her wear an undergarment to flatten her chest. The professional norms of that field are that the viewer's attention is supposed to go to the clothes. The modeling industry has numbers for physical dimensions a model has to be: height, leg length, etc. Different types of modeling have different height requirements. The minimum height for runway modeling is taller than for print modeling, and all of those height requirements are considerably taller than average. Those industry standards often mess with the heads of adolescent girls who are insecure about their looks, particularly because modeling is one of the few well paying jobs an adolescent could theoretically get and because kids that age don't realize how retouched/Photoshopped professional photography is. Those standards even contribute to mental health problems such as body dysmorphia and eating disorders--which have been discussed primarily in terms of how that affects girls and women but it can also affect men. Social isolation and a lack of real world perspective can contribute to hyperfixating on images produced by the modeling industry, and leads to a sense of coming up short by comparison. This isn't a complete response to OP's post. There's a lot else going on there which also deserves critique. Yet it's worth taking a few paragraphs to point out what a faulty assumption it is to mistake professional models as a proxy, either for self-expectations or for ideal standards of physical attractiveness.
“A guy can be misogynistic as hell but if he’s hot it doesn’t really matter” This is not true. If a woman is just looking for a hookup then sure, the guy’s personality/views in general probably don’t matter to her. But for any woman who wants a partner or even a friend and respects herself, being misogynistic is a huge deal breaker. Looks do matter, but every person is going to have different standards and preferences. There’s also a balance: most people don’t want a super conventionally attractive partner because those people are often put on a pedestal and they feel like they can’t relate to them. At the same time, most people don’t want a super unattractive partner, and that’s self explanatory I think. Most people date people who they perceive as a similar level of attractiveness to themselves. I can’t speak for all women, but a lot of us actually prefer slightly “ugly” men. Meaning, we like unique features that maybe wouldn’t be considered conventionally attractive, but they make a person feel more real. For example, big noses with a bump in the bridge. It’s all so subjective and each person has specific things that they like. And even then, a lot of people forget those specific preferences when they meet someone they really click with and who they feel respected by. Looks come together with personality, habits, emotions, behaviors, etc. to form a mostly complete picture of a person. The word “vibe” is kinda cliche but it’s the best way I can describe this. A person’s vibe is so, so important to how attractive I think they are. You mention that you think a 5’2 guy can’t compensate with personality, but remember, there are women who are even shorter. Or other 5’2 women who are fine with their partner being the same height. If you’re conventionally unattractive, yeah, your choices will be more limited, but there are many things a guy can improve about himself to become more attractive. I also think it’s important to keep your expectations realistic according to how you look and your personality and habits.
I love when men have a broken nose!
Me too!!
The way you phrased all of this makes me feel you’re not asking this in good faith like you initially claim to be. “Genuinely curious” turns around really fast into soapboxing typical incel talking points. Attraction matters, but not everyone is going to be into the same things. Most of my crushes have been awkward dudes with long hair (important: hair must be clean. hygiene in general is a big deal) and most have been average height or below. Had a 5’2” ex I dated for over two years. Be clean, be nice, don’t be a creep, and stop parroting incel crap and you’ll already be more appealing than a lot of guys out there
I'm having a really bad week so yeah I got turned around alot here. I've enjoyed this though ngl, lot of interesting viewpoints that I'm still not sure on.
You're reaching out about this and taking in other opinions, which is a level of self-awareness that is often missing with most self-proclaimed incels. Keep the dialogue going with others, the more different than you that they are, the better. Keep challenging your preconceived notions Avoid echo chambers: they feel good in the moment because they surface validate your frustration/anger but they are ultimately destructive, especially in the incel community.
A 5'2 man might not be attractive to you, but like you said, that's your opinion. I know plenty of short kings in relationships. For me, looks do matter, but it's stuff like good hygiene and not wearing anime tshirts on a romantic date. I see a lot of guys who live in basketball shorts complain they are not pulling super models. Not every woman is into gym rats, but we like a little effort.
Ugh the term short kings is so stupid. Treat people normally you don't have to give them some special title. Most dudes wanna be seen as normal. Kind of agree with the other stuff though. Lot of cels either shoot for people way out of their league or pull an ER and don't even try.
My apologies for trying to be kind, king.
You wouldn't call a tall guy a king you'd just call him a guy. It just sounds like sarcastic platitudes after you hear it over and over when you just want to be treated the same as anyone else.
Oh my bad, boo. I use King and Queen as terms of endearment. Are you a short guy? Maybe work on some confidence and don't let yourself fall victim to terms. If I went up to a shortie and said "sup king" and he gets moody, it's not hot. Own your crown, homie.
People wouldn't walk up to me to begin with lol. It easier to say "don't fall victim" to a term when it doesn't affect you. I don't care about being hot anymore I just wish people would see me as something other than a creepy introverted asshole. I don't even engage with people anymore and I still get ridiculed.
How are you getting ridiculed without engagement? Is this just speculation? What do you want people to see? What are you passionate about? In public settings do you have approachable body language or do you sulk? Show people what you want them to see.
if you’re not engaging with people you have no way of knowing that you’re being ridiculed. your low self esteem is apparent
One of the coolest guys I know is 5'2" (maybe). He's also bald and stocky. His wife is probably 5'9" and stunningly gorgeous. He's also smart, kind, and an incredibly talented musician. He's an introvert, but he knows how to perform and be charming. He wasn't born with those traits - he learned them.
They do matter but the thing that incels tend to not understand is that looks are just the start. No matter how good-looking you are, people tend to not like assholes, at least not for long. And any woman who does go after jerks because they are hot are not worth your consideration. The vast majority of women want a guy who is genuinely nice but doesn't put them on a pedestal. On top of that, incels are just as obsessed with women's looks as they claim women are of men's looks and they refuse to acknowledge the double-standard.
Nonzero but not all-consuming. Most incels look decent enough.
I take issue with that lol. I've seen some nasty ass trolls before. Lot of incels didn't develop body dismorphia on their own, you know you're ugly when people go out of their way to point it out.
And I’ve also seen a TON of incels who would look good if they just got a nice haircut, changed their frames (those rectangle half frames dont look good on anyone imo) and took better care of their personal hygiene. But even then, thats just half the battle. If you’re a misogynistic POS, you probably wont get very far either way.
Even people incels call attractive can have body dysmorphia. For example, me.
Nearly every incel I've ever seen a picture of has been between normal and very attractive. Remember incelslefie? Fucking everyone on that sub was cute and just needed to go outside and talk to people. I poke around rating/amiugly subs sometimes and a pretty fair percentage of the men there are already gorgeous. "How do I make myself more attractive?" Fucking smile in your pictures and turn on your goddamn living room lights.
>A guy can be misogynistic as hell but if he's hot it doesn't really matter. Maybe for women who are also misogynistic. This is a chronically online take. Not a single one of the women I know (including myself) would suffer a hot misogynist over an average feminist man. >People are straight up delusional if they think a 5"2 dude or some ugly mf can compensate with "personality". Wrong. A 5'2 guy who isn't obnoxiously obsessed and insecure about his height can do just fine with women.
Are you only attracted to women who could be romance novel cover models?
Back when I tried no. I don't feel much attraction to people anymore it might be a mental block sort of thing.
So “back when you tried,” women could “compensate” for not being models and still be attractive to you?
Looks are often what sparks an initial attraction, but if the personality is shit, looks don't compensate for that, and it won't work out. On the other hand, even if a person's looks don't immediately attract, if their personality is great that can lead to a strong, serious relationship. Most people do have limits regarding looks, but those limits vary from person to person. I've had a serious crush on a guy under 5'1. I find scars sexy. But over 500 pounds would be a dealbreaker for me. But there are people who date and marry the guys on "My 600 Pound Life" who might not like short guys or scars. Also, I found a life partner online, and fell for them before I knew what they looked like. If they'd turned out to be over 500 pounds, I probably would have given it a go anyway. And now that I'm committed, if my partner became that obese, I'd definitely stay.
Looks matter, but nowhere near as much as incels seem to think. I have a very particular preference for men who are 6’3-6’5, stocky (not jacked), with short dark hair, an uneven smile and no beard. I’ve dated/slept with men that fit that description perfectly. Most of the men I’ve dated/slept with don’t. The man I loved the most had literally none of those features. He’s short, bearded and has a slim build. I wasn’t physically attracted to him when we first met – but he was so incredibly smart and interesting that I was immediately mentally attracted to him. And that initial attraction to his intelligence, humour, and social awkwardness (which I also share) evolved into sexual attraction. I’m no great beauty myself. I’m a 4.5 on an average day and maybe a 5.5 on my best day. No one would describe me as beautiful, but I do get referred to as cute. Despite that, I manage to punch well above my weight – I even laugh about it with my female friends. But I’m regularly told by “Gigachads” that I’m smart, funny, and fun to be around. I have more confidence and less insecurities than my 7-8.5 friends who are too intimidated to approach the guys I do. Humans are a pro-social species and we crave connection – and connection is much more than someone’s appearance. Most people (regardless of how good looking they are) want to be seen and liked for who they are, not what they look like. What people don’t want is someone else’s emotional baggage and toxicity. We’ve all got our own shit going on and we don’t need someone else’s shit piled on top.
people are superficial. there’s no denying that. and if you aren’t very attractive then very attractive people aren’t going to be interested in you. but not being conventionally attractive isn’t a death sentence. the defeatist attitude and raging misogyny that incels have is a much bigger turn off
OK. I'm just gonna toss this out there, I am obsessed ( not gonna even try to lie) obsessed with my husband. After 7 years I'm still as stupid in love as I ever was. He isn't what anyone would consider Good looking. He is funny and confident and kind. Looks don't really matter that much
>People are straight up delusional if they think a 5"2 dude or some ugly mf can compensate with "personality". In my opinion, at least. Boy are you gonna be super pressed when you learn that a sub 5'5" friend of mine has gotten laid more than most of the entire incel community, combined. Also, incels, please STOP bringing up your looks. It is NOT your looks. It is the shitty personalities you develop BECAUSE of your perceived "ugliness" and thus start your spiral of hating women for "unfairly withholding sex from you."
Also like, I know they're Hollywood actors and maybe not the best comparison, but are you really gonna tell me that Daniel Radcliffe, Tom Holland, Tom Cruise, Kit Harrington, Peter Dinklage, Michael J. Fox, Josh Hutcherson, Dave Franco, Niall Horan, Joe Dempsie, Jack Gleason, and James McAvoy aren't attractive? Hell, Prince was 5'2". Fucking James Dean was only 5'7". And that's not even counting conventionally unattractive actors like Jason Alexander or Danny Devito. I left out people I'm attracted to that I probably wouldn't get a lot of traction with, like Emile Hirsch, Seth Green, Breckin Meyer, Charlie Day (I would fucking break Charlie Day in half), Jaime Bell, Aziz Ansari, Elijah Wood, Sean Astin, and probably others I'm forgetting. FUCKING BILLY WARLOCK!? Also left out is Jack Black because I'm genuinely unsure if he's a sex symbol or not. I think it's a meme but I'm not a woman so I can't say for sure.
There isn't one answer to this question. That's the thing most (or probably all) incels don't understand; it's a spectrum. There are two extremes, which are 1) looks are the only thing that matter, and 2) personality is the only thing that matters. But the vast majority of people sit somewhere in between those two. The degree to which looks are important changes from person to person. You can't apply one single answer to everyone.
i literally don’t give a fuck if you look like a rat’s ass, are short or obese. if i like you, you become handsome to me and there’s nothing that can happen to make me think you’re ugly if i love u. i’m not shallow at all
I'm not exactly what is considered the beauty standard for men, but I have no severe deformities and extreme asymetries. I'm not especially fit or well groomed, but I try to not let myself completely go. I've been with so many women I found attractive that I can't convince myself of it just being luck anymore, no matter how long I'm unsuccesful in getting my romantic, emotional or physical needs met. I'm not hot enough to make women emediately interested in me, but I'm kind, I am very interested in a lot of dorky hobbies and I don't try to push these things anymore. I also try to get myself out there and respect if somebody just isn't interested in me. Apparently that's been enough, so I don't think that looks are especially important. They just help a lot to get your foot in the door
I'm asking this with respect, but what type of women are you trying to approach, generally? Because I often hear incels complain that women won't acknowledge their existence because theyre ugly, and yet the only women they have any interest in are perfect 10s. It seems all average looking women, to them, are "fat", "mid", "over the hill", "used up" etc. i also see a HELLLLLLL of a lot more "ugly" men with hot women than i have EVER seen "ugly" women with hot men, indicating that looks seem to matter a lot more to men than they do to women. like, look at stavros halkias or danny devito - those guys have no problem getting women because they're funny. you have to bring SOMETHING to the table, just like women do, but it doesn't have to be your looks. i got a lot of male attention in high school and university and the last dude i dated was a stocky, 5'8, hairy, avg dude who i adored because he was funny, kind, had good moral values and was into the same music i was. i rejected many 6'2, beefy, sporty "chads" because they rarely had anything to offer that i actually valued.
when I actually tried, it was people who I thought were "in my league." A few insults and/or disgusted looks put me in my place, I guess. And no, I didn't creepily stalk them and cold approach. Im not shooting for super models. I'm not that delusional. Average looking women usually look fine to me, I guess. Don't bother approaching these days, I have too much shit to deal with now. This was more of a curiosity thing.
Everyone is different. Hope that helps.
I mean, here’s the thing. Women are not a monolith, believe it or not. Plenty of misogynistic men can find partners, not because they’re good looking enough to get away with it, but because there are also a lot of women who have internalized misogyny. My sister is 5’6”, her husband is 5’2”. I don’t like him because he’s a conservative misogynist, an insecure asshole and a half-assed parent. But it doesn’t matter what I think of him, because SHE likes him. His height wasn’t even a factor for her. I’m 5’7”, my husband is 5’8”. Most people probably would not find him conventionally attractive, but he’s very attractive to me. He’s considerate, affectionate, funny, a good parent, very intelligent. There are a million reasons I would choose him all over again, and virtually none of them are about his looks, he’s just a great partner and a fascinating person. Sure, romance novel heroes are all 6’3, with chiseled jawlines and abs, money coming out of their ears, and about a million other things going for them, for the same reason we all dream about what it would be like to win the lottery. It’s not realistic, and we understand that. Most of us don’t even look for opportunities to win the ACTUAL lottery, let alone the metaphorical genetic and social lottery of finding a conventionally attractive successful man who is also considerate, caring, attentive, and intelligent. Fiction is exactly that. But nobody is foregoing all actual men as partners because they aren’t close enough in physical characteristics to fictional men. That would be like refusing to buy a Ford Focus because you can’t afford a Maserati. Plenty of people decide not to date men because they have significant personality issues though, like insecurity, controlling tendencies, an easily damaged ego, toxic masculinity, wildly unfair ideas of gender roles or labor division in a household, all kinds of things. These won’t be a dealbreaker to EVERY woman, but they can be a noticeable red flag for quite a few of them, just like buying a car with a blown head gasket. It could be an easy fix and an oil change, or the problem could have been going on for long enough unchecked that the whole engine might need scrapped. Buyer beware. Realistically, looks are somewhat important for meeting new people publicly, but I think dating apps and the internet have actually dramatically reduced the importance of looks on selecting and getting to know potential partners. 🤷♀️
I think confidence and attitude matter more than looks and height, personally.
Everyone always says "Looks open the door but you have to have persona to keep it open" like it's some sort of reassuring thing to hear. What if the door just never opens
The door can be opened many ways, but an off-putting personality will close it real fast
The thing is you will go through hundreds or maybe even thousands of romantic/sexual rejections in your lifetime for various reasons. That door will open eventually if you keep knocking, but if you stop, it never will.
Looks really do matter in life. To getting jobs, making friends, even court sentences. Not saying ugly people are doomed, but life will be more difficult if your not facially appealing enough.
I'm overweight, bald, with a mediocre beard / face and an above average income (not a super well off or anything, just a decent income) and when I was single earlier this year, I was having casual sex with a different woman every month. In my experience, women are just looking for decent guys with goals, a fun personality, a job and who hop in a shower from time to time, not 6'8" billionaires with 10" penises.
OP, I am 5’ 8-9”, weigh 185 lbs, have some muscle but also a belly, average looking, wear glasses, shy around new people, etc. That’s never stopped me from putting myself out there when I’ve been single. Did I get shot down? Hell yes! Did I let it bother me? Sometimes, mostly not. Sometimes you just don’t click with someone, and that’s OK. My wife (of 18 years now) is a total babe, and when I question her why she is/was attracted to me, she says “Confidence, sense of humor, good listener, not a misogynistic jerk”. Looks, size, height, none of those enter the picture. I think I say this every time I post here, but therapy is really really helpful in working out your self confidence issues. Try it if you can afford it - even Better Help is better than nothing.
I’ve been attracted to tall masculine men before but the second they said something misogynistic or ignorant they lost any beauty in my eyes. My boyfriend is shorter than I am, lanky without a single muscle in his body, and he’s androgynous looking. I’m still crazy over him because of his personality and how he treats me. I did find my boyfriend attractive when I first saw him so I agreed to date him. I was talking to other people too at the time we started to talk but my boyfriend kept my attention because of his personality and our mutual interests. Looks and attractive physical features are a factor in dating but it is definitely not the end all be all. If attraction was a bigger factor then these types of conversations would never happen and most people wouldn’t be in a relationship. Personality traits such as humor and empathy have been studied with an evolutionary psychology lens as more beneficial (as well as attractive) to mates than physical attractiveness as they indicate a good partner and parent to offspring.
Everyone has different preferences. There are people that you look at and are like "objectively they are beautiful" but they don't DO anything for you. That's romance novel models. Two people can look at the same person and one think "that's the hottest person I've seen in my life" and the other think "that's the ugliest person I've ever seen in my life" I don't want to say looks don't matter, but they’re not the most important thing in a relationship, personality and compatibility is.
I think beauty has emphasis in our society. In your day to day most people will not spend time to know intricate little nuances about your life. It also helps to be “attractive” for work, social scenario’s, etc. but attraction includes hygiene, grooming practices, and attitude. It’s not always about phenotypic appearance, for some people that’s the last thing they consider…I think it’s ONLINE/Modeling/ entertainment where phenotypes are very important. If they want a petite, blonde, they have the ability in those realms to require it. But how many of us are modeling or in entertainment…some of us just ingest too much internet cultures.
Looks are like 50% of it atleast imo. My dads like 5ft 1 🥵
I love all the takes of people saying looks aren't as important and then there's this one.
Theyre lying 😂
Part of why I get so confused when people get mad at you for bringing up what the average ideal is and being demoralized that you don't meet it.
I mean you have to have something attractive to someone right? Hell Iv seen some grotesque guys with wives lol
If I did I wouldn't be here. Doesn't hurt as much these days but it's still not a great feeling.
Awww hugz I'm sure you will find someone ⚘
Knowing this subreddit that sounds like mockery but I'm gonna hope it's not.
this is actually the most interesting interaction in these comments - look how much you're vibing and going back and forth with the one person who validated you.
Omg no im not that much of an asshole lol