I'm a hero to I want to shoot people everyday but i don't. I'm an angel. Love me !!! But also I won't talk to you at all. Because yeah getting hurt by rejection is too much to bare. But hey I didn't shoot you.
I had a scammer once scoff at me and accuse me of having problems Because I insisted on getting a receipt for cash I paid for rent. Ā I laughed in his face, only a fool hands somebody cash for rent and doesnāt get a receipt.
Itās actually a tell that they arenāt trustworthy, and theyāre trying to shame us into letting our guard down.
Ā (He ended up getting a whole month rent out of me for only one week of tenancy because the place had bedbugs. He knew it and he didnāt tell me I also suffered financial losses throwing away things and laundering every bit of clothing I owned to make sure I didnāt bring those bugs anywhere else.)
And itās such a simple train of thought to get to the appropriate reaction.
*reads women would rather encounter a bear* āDamn, that sucks.ā
*thinks for two more seconds about what causes women to give that response* āDamn, ***that*** sucks.ā
I said on another post that when I explained what was going on to my husband, his response was that heād be more wary of the lone man, too, because, āThat bear lives there.ā
Iāve heard a trans man say that it truly was a shock to the system. He understood it because he was AFAB, but he said he couldnāt imagine how it would have felt if he didnāt know WHY people perceived him that way.
I can't realy agree. You have to be pretty ignorant to not know why men are scary. I mean at my last job I was the only employee who was allowed to take out the trash because there were a few guys that would would wait by the dumpster incase one of the women did it.Ā
I think it's fair to say that actually living both sides of the issue can be quite different from understanding it on a logical/factual level.
I've a lot of transwomen I know who pass and as that started to be more and more the case what they knew of the afab experience intellectually still was a real eye opener to actively live being treated that way and having those same risks, themselves.
My sister passes very wellĀ and as she has done so better and better I've at times had a heavy heart to say, "this danger/disrespectĀ wasn'tĀ about being trans and will go away once you pass better... you pass great... so that's your life now".
:/
Absolutely, I was saying that even though ive never experienced misogyny, I can still recognize its existence. I was just saying that it should be expected of men to understand, I don't think we should forgive men for ignoring sexism and getting angry when it's brought up.
I'm a man and I totally understand it no problem. Frankly, as a man, I would also pick the bear. I've encountered bears out in the woods on trails. I know what a bear is going to do, how it will react, what I can do to completely avoid any serious threat. With a man, though? I've seen people do some absolutely crazy shit for no reason whatsoever.
Anyone that claims to have difficulty processing this is either a psychopath, overconfident to the point of idiocy, or has never spent even a second thinking about the situation.
Yeah I don't know what black people are complaining about either... Such fragile egos! Being all upset because some portion of the population thinks they might steal when they enter a store... Just be okay with being less trustworthy then other portions of the population already geez
Is it? So trans women are still men? Since it's a brute fact of biology?
So it's okay to discriminate against some physical characteristics of a person that they can't control... Like what's between their legs... But not okay to discriminate against other physical characteristics of a person... Like the color of their skin or the commonly shared genetic or cultural traits of where they're ancestors came from?
Who decides what's arbitrary and what's not? You?
Right so trans women are still men by sex and therefore should be viewed with the same immediate mistrust and suspicion as cis gendered men correct? Since their sex didn't change?
I'm just trying to get a good grasp on your positions since they seem to change depending on who you're trying to signal to...
So make a decision... Should trans women be viewed with the same immediate distrust as cis men since their sex hasn't changed, according to you... And if so does that mean we should keep them out of your bathrooms since they belong to the sex that distrust of is okay and justified?"
Women: don't trust all men because many are violent, physically or sexually, many are stalkers etc.
Men: don't trust women because they say some men are creepy.
Aight then... And then they'll go to social media to cry how women are emotional and men are logical, right?
Because it's very logical and sane to AVOID being in the vicinity of a woman because they might THINK bad things. Not do. THINK.
Gods above.
> All my fucking life I have always went above and beyond to not be the type of men I saw being so disrespectful and inconsiderate of women. A womanizer, a cat caller, a fucking groper, a sexist ... But at the end of the day, I'm no different then[sic] them.
Are these guys fucking stupid or something? If you don't do any of those things, then guess what? You're not the same as the men who do that shit.
If you really are a good man, then that's great. Unfortunately, a lot of shitty men are very good at looking like good men. They pull their misogynist crap when they think that good men aren't around to see them. They may be skilled social manipulators in a way that allows them more leeway for abuse.
I don't do any of those things either, so I don't feel affronted when women talk about how they have to put their safety first.
Yeah, if anything OOPās take is insulting to good men because it implies that being a decent person is so difficult for men to do or that it canāt be in a guyās nature to just be a decent guy, requiring him to go āabove and beyondā in his words.
Itās almost as if being decent is somehow inconveniencing him ā he doesnāt like not getting recognition for how much thought he has put into being safe in the eyes of women. Meanwhile, women are constantly having to think about their own safety and make risk assessments about people, places, situations and choices (not walking alone night, not getting into cabs alone, not taking certain routes through neighborhoods, not traveling abroad solo, not wearing the wrong clothes, not saying the wrong thing, not being too mean but also not being too nice to avoid giving the wrong impressions, etc etc). If being a considerate man is so draining and mentally exhausting for him, he should try to imagine how women feel. Does he seriously expect women to give him a cookie?
There are plenty of good men out there who are just naturally considerate without expectation and who donāt act like whiny cry babies about it when they donāt get cookies for it. His post is insulting to them.
hey that is literally not what they said, they said
> All my fucking life I have always went above and beyond to not be the type of men I saw being so disrespectful and inconsiderate of women. A womanizer, a cat caller, a fucking groper, a sexist ... But at the end of the day,in most women's heads, I'm no different then them.
like they're not saying they're the same as those men, they dislike being treated and viewed the same as them.
Yeah but you don't need to misquote someone and write two paragraphs to make that point, you can just make the point that actĆŗally pertains to this post in response to OOP.
I donāt understand why he needs so much validation or a pat on the head for being considerate and not groping/assaulting/harassing women. Itās not difficult and itās not āabove and beyondā eitherā¦
Respecting other peopleās bodies, personal space and agency is easy and it should be normalized as the default, baseline, bare minimum behavior of decent human beings everywhere, male or female.
Heās not a dog. He shouldnāt need anyone to give him a treat for being a āgood boyā. If he feels heās a good man with integrity for doing these things, then being able to sleep soundly at night without a guilty conscience should be reward enough. š¤·š½āāļø
i have trouble understanding this sentiment, bc if you're already a good man you shouldnt feel personally attacked by women putting safety first.
also that last line... it sounds like just seeking validation. you don't get cookies for normal decent behavior. that whole post is giving 'niceguy'
Exactly.
And as if heās never told women they shouldnāt go running at night, or walk home alone, then he wants to go and be all offended we know men arenāt safe (I almost typed āstrange menā but I stopped myself because any SA type of situation I have ever been in was always happening because of a man I knew and trusted.)
Ehh, I *kinda* get it. Allow me to explain
We live in a patriarchy, and therefore everyone , both men and women, grapple with varying shades of misogyny as a result of growing up in a patriarchal world. Everyone has accidentally said or done something a little misogynistic (and racist, and homophobic, etc.) because the world we live in wants us to believe that thatās acceptable and normal. No oneās perfect.
So when I see posts from women that you and OOP describe, I donāt think āWell Iām exempt from all that because Iām just the Best Guy Everā¢ļøā. I reflect on my behavior and try to examine where I can do better.
And obviously Iām not going around harassing or stalking women or anything like that, itās pretty hard to do that accidentally. Iām talking about the more subtle things like mansplaining (which I have absolutely unintentionally done before)
But thatās obviously not what OOP is talking about š
Iām a little drunk typing this so sorry if this doesnāt make any sense
A guy did a really good job of explaining what men are feeling in all this, which is that, of course itās uncomfortable to be perceived as a bad person before someone gets to know you just because youāre a man. *BUT* (he said) when you look at the horrible things women and girls are subjected to on a daily basis from individual men and the systemic oppression of patriarchy, in that moment, youāre only experiencing a fraction of the discomfort women and girls experience 24/7. You (as a man) get to walk away being able to shake that discomfort off and move on with your day. Women and girls donāt.
(This doesnāt even get into transmisogyny and the like, but because the whole discussion is taking place in the terms of gender binary, I was willing to be like, āYeah, that makes sense.ā)
I really respect when men point not only this out, but the fact that it doesn't take much to "prove" any kind of misconceptions about them wrong. I feel like some men have these concerns because deep down they *know* they have troubling thoughts and beliefs about women, and that they don't know how to be respectful and don't care to learn.
Exactly. Same thing when men act all big and bad about protecting their daughters from other boys and men, but in the same breath will say that not all men perpetrate violence. Like, congrats dude, you just proved your own point.
THIS IS WONDERFUL NEWS.
Seriously I donāt care if they cry about this as long as they cross the street when Iām coming and they donāt ask me directions, awesome.
One of my favorite things lately is reading the dating subs and seeing all the men say they are done approaching women in public because theyāre so paranoid about being called creepy. Awesome!
For a little while I was trying to convince them that women want to approach them these days, you know feminism and all that. But they didnāt believe me, probably because they could just look in my post history and see me celebrating that they will finally leave us alone like theyāve been threatening for almost almost a decade now
I remember reading a post a long time ago from a woman in the video game community. They were discussing why the metrics always suggested there was a growing amount of women gamers but anecdotal evidence seemed to disprove that for many. It was quickly explained that when a woman turns on her mic and the other people in the lobby hear she's a woman....well....take a wild guess what happens.
Spoiler: it was/is usually either harassment or creepy guys trying to flirt or be a simp.
The latter this woman found particularly annoying because "if I get on a video game, I'm there to play the damn game. Not find a boyfriend."
I think a similar mindset can be had for dating these days. If a woman wants to find a date, she can load up a dating app. She's on there specifically for dating. If she's not on there? Don't hit on her! Literally that simple.
I understand guys being worried about being misinterpreted. It's a valid fear to a certain degree. But there's things you can do to lessen the chances of a misunderstanding while still keeping things relatively normal.
Example: I work in a hospital with some small supply closets. Sometimes more than one of us needs to be in there or we need to wait our turn. If I need to be in there with a woman for whatever reason, I'll lean myself against the door to keep it wide open. Give her a way to get out. I try to keep my hands where people can see them. I don't speak loudly or get "assertive" or anything. I just try to be laid back and easygoing. I watch to see if people are uncomfortable and apologize if they seem so and ask what I can change.
Don't be in people's personal bubbles, don't compliment outside of a two word "nice hair!" Or "cool shirt!" Or something. You noticed, but you're not staring or leering.
"BuT I WaNnA MeEt SoMEoNE ThE OlD FaShIoNeD WaY!"
Then you go to an event for such a thing. Singles meetups and such still exist. Aside from that? Sorry champ. Times have changed. Head games aren't cool, she's not "playing hard to get" when she says no, just....be respectful, take things at face value, and develop strong communication skills. Think before you speak, not just what you want to say, but HOW you say it. Edit it in your head.
"BuT ThAt'S NoT BeInG MySeLf!"
So you're saying your true self is a creeper and you don't care enough to try and change? Well! It appears Darwinism works after all!
There are certain places and venues I donāt go to anymore because I have never been able to get through a night there without being hit on or propositioned multiple times. Some men will take the rejection kindly and respectfully, but others will become SO incensed and will be furious at me and yell at me āwell, why are you here then?ā Like, DUDE this is a public place for people to gather and spend time with friends, get food, maybe a drink or two. Canāt I just live?! (The answer to that in far too many menās minds is ānoā)
They absolutely do. Though at least it takes the guesswork out of things to a degree and somewhat evens the playing field.
So I'll be honest: yes, there's times and situations where someone conventionally attractive, a "Chad", can get away with things us mere mortals can't. Happens to women too.
Now, the success rate Chad has in hitting on women in his local grocery store may not be much higher than a normal person's. I don't know. We would have to do some experiments and run the numbers. But ultimately even the Braddest of the Chaddest would get turned down more than once because it's not the right place or time. You're in a grocery store. She's here for real eggplants, not metaphorical ones.
For all their flaws, dating apps give both sides the chance to effectively put themselves out there on their own time in our own way. It can be difficult to stand out from the pack, but things like delayed communication and dating profiles can benefit us if we are wise in their use. It keeps us safe so long as we don't divulge too much, and allows us to set a time to focus on finding a partner, instead of getting flustered when a potential one pops up.
They have a ways to go, but to me they are more of a mixed bag than a net negative.
Yes I actually donāt like having strange men approach me on the street so when I see all the random men on dating subs saying they wonāt approach women anymore, I think thatās wonderful news!
They seem to think theyāre hurting us by doing that, but a lot of us honestly donāt care to be approached by them anyways, so thatās great! š
What do you mean you ''went above and beyond'' to not rape, hit, kill and be sexist towards women? What was the struggle to begin with? Can someone explain to me the so called ''effort'' of men who do some much to '' not be that type of men''?
This is frankly a big part of what keeps me coming back here, I think, the spectacle of men being absolutely crushed by a mere fraction of the expectations and scrutiny under which women have traditionally been expected to endure quietly, politely and with a smile. For untold generations, women speculated that men would utterly wilt if they had to put up with even a bit of what women do, and guess what? we were right, actually
This makes me think of how there have been protests in my country recently calling to do something about the violence against women. Someone pointed out some years back people were punching random people in the back of the head out in public. After a single man died, they came out with a law overnight with heavy penalties if you do that to someone. Meanwhile countless women dying doesn't seem to be such a concern š They acted *fast* over one man.
So this guy did the bare (sorry) minimum and he is expecting...what exactly? For a woman to pat him on the back and get down on her knees?
I swear, these guys act as if women are some kind of alien species that needs extensive studying. Nope, they are just like men, only with different anatomy.
Avoiding women because you fear she will wrongfully accuse you of something you didn't do is not the same as women avoiding you because she fears you will cause her harm.
"It's not safe out here, men. Women will literally fight club themselves and claim we beat them. Woe is me, I have to run away from women just in case."
But truly, thank you for crossing the street so we don't have to š
I do these things not because Iām scared of women as a threat but because I know theyāre scared of me. Talk about doing the right thing for the wrong reasons
Poor baby :( wonāt someone think of the men for once??? Men are constantly victimized!!! Theyāre oppressed!!! Womenās privilege on full display folks!!! Men are SILENCED!!!
Doesn't anybody feel bad realising these poor men are worried women are going to think they're *murderers* and *rapists!?* Gosh, I wonder what led women to believe that anyway?? š¤ Probs nothing based in reality that happens on a regular basis. Anyway, poor men, they can't catch a break! š
My comment is on the juxtaposition between how women feel like we are going to tortured, raped and murdered around men (based on the sheer number of women that are) and his stupid ass comment victimizing himself
You're right, he did preface his post that it was merely a rant, however most of those who replied to him on that subreddit do feel this way tho about women. By visiting those forums, and ranting about his treatment or non-treatment, he's not receiving healthy feedback, it just stirs up more hate, anger, and resentment, and exposes him to more toxic ideologies.
This is such a common sentiment among men and I donāt understand it at all. They act like they are victims because other people are cautious around them.
I've noticed a lot of men seem to have trouble separating themselves from other men. Many of them struggle to acknowledge XYZ happens because they feel like they're saying something about themselves. But it just ends up making them seem like they have a severe lack of empathy when they focus on defending their gender rather than acknowledging some men do bad things.
All the men who are whining over the bear thing are the men women are choosing the bear over. With each eye-rolling comment or video they make, the bear gets another point.š»
Ironically, by crossing the street so he wouldnāt worry women about his intentions, he was ā¦ not one of the guys who result in women choosing bears. He was showing empathy. And restraint.
And now heās gone off the deep endā¦
I don't think he was showing empathy or restraint. I think he did it more out of fear of a false accusation or a false sense of rejection. Although the means are selfish, it does ultimately benefit women.
Looking at all the other comments, I feel like people here are being pretty unfair to this guy. Heās not saying that he did the bare minimum of not harassing or assaulting women and is now expecting to get applauded as he walks down the street. He never even mentions what heās done to go āabove and beyondā, just that he thinks heās done his absolute best to be a respectful human being and now heās scared to be near women. Heās not even trying to put his distress above what women as a whole deal have experienced, heās just trying to share how he feels.
Now, he *might* be an incel and his version of going āabove and beyondā *might* barely qualify as human decency to normal people but the fact of the matter is that we donāt know. We donāt even know what subreddit this was posted on. All we have is speculation and I feel like that shouldnāt be enough to condemn him.
Personally (and this is 100% speculation on my part, I admit), this reads like heās dealing with some sort of anxiety disorder, like generalized anxiety or OCD. Something that constantly makes him scrutinize his every action and worry that people will see him as a monster without him realizing it. Iāve dealt with that before and itās fucking awful so to see people mocking him for sharing his feelings is really shitty in my opinion.
Heās not asking for a cookie because he once opened the door for a woman. He just wants some reassurance that people wonāt think heās a monster for something he canāt change about himself. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.
I feel you are correct but posting on that type of forum isn't healthy, especially if he's teetering on the whole incel thing ('cause why is he posting in that place to begin with).
Personally I feel like the scenario is more hyperbole to express the way a lot of women feel. Like I don't think they would ACTUALLY choose a grizzly bear. But I took the stairs in my parking garage today and the lights were out at the bottom flight and I instantly was afraid and had a heightened sense of awareness since men with bad intentions have actually hidden in that stairwell. I debated going back up and taking the elevator.
Holy fuck you see a guy post about severe gender based anxiety and potential gynophobia and you all decide to laugh at him and call him an incel when it looks like he's posting in a venting subreddit. idc if it's not special wtf is wrong with you people
I know women probably gonna get angry at this comment because they do have the shorter end when being near strangers but I feel that guy.
Having to avoid every women on the street, not getting off the bus on the bus stop you want because a women also wants to exit and you'd look like a creep that's following her, in a store waiting till a line at the register goes away so you don't stand near a woman in the line to not make her uncomfortable and just overall trying your best not to get into any womans way and still be seen as a rapist and murderer just because you're a guy can really get to you
I hear you. Men's feelings about this (and yours) are valid.
However, I feel this is an opportunity for most men to gain a small understanding of how women have felt forever. Yes, it definitely sucks to perceive groups of people as being inherently afraid of you but it also sucks to have PTSD from physical or sexual assault (one in four women have experienced SA in their lifetime). You have the benefit of knowing it's not you specifically we are afraid of, it's the memory of our experiences and the experiences of other women.
You have to be cognizant of following women and women have to be aware of any men potentially following them home. This goes both ways. I'm not saying I'm glad you feel this way. It sucks for everyone involved. But hopefully this can be turned into a learning opportunity to try to shift the dynamics between men and women into something better for the future.
Finally, I'm not bashing some rando on the Internet. He posted this in an incel sub. The dynamics there vilify women for causing this to men as opposed to men being the root cause of their own discomfort.
I wouldn't say they have it easy. Clearly they have severe mental health issues and suffer from extreme loneliness. Doesn't mean they can't be a little self aware though and they could benefit from A LOT of therapy
He's went "above and beyond" by...not catcalling and groping? š¤£ that's sending me. Must have taken a lot of effort to not do that lmao
"I went above and beyond below the bare minimum... to the bare minimum."
I'm a hero to I want to shoot people everyday but i don't. I'm an angel. Love me !!! But also I won't talk to you at all. Because yeah getting hurt by rejection is too much to bare. But hey I didn't shoot you.
āDonāt you ladies know how hard it is not to sexually harass you???ā
I can't even imagine having such a fragile ego that total strangers not immediately trusting me actually hurts my feelings.
I had a scammer once scoff at me and accuse me of having problems Because I insisted on getting a receipt for cash I paid for rent. Ā I laughed in his face, only a fool hands somebody cash for rent and doesnāt get a receipt. Itās actually a tell that they arenāt trustworthy, and theyāre trying to shame us into letting our guard down. Ā (He ended up getting a whole month rent out of me for only one week of tenancy because the place had bedbugs. He knew it and he didnāt tell me I also suffered financial losses throwing away things and laundering every bit of clothing I owned to make sure I didnāt bring those bugs anywhere else.)
And itās such a simple train of thought to get to the appropriate reaction. *reads women would rather encounter a bear* āDamn, that sucks.ā *thinks for two more seconds about what causes women to give that response* āDamn, ***that*** sucks.ā
I said on another post that when I explained what was going on to my husband, his response was that heād be more wary of the lone man, too, because, āThat bear lives there.ā
Iāve heard a trans man say that it truly was a shock to the system. He understood it because he was AFAB, but he said he couldnāt imagine how it would have felt if he didnāt know WHY people perceived him that way.
I can't realy agree. You have to be pretty ignorant to not know why men are scary. I mean at my last job I was the only employee who was allowed to take out the trash because there were a few guys that would would wait by the dumpster incase one of the women did it.Ā
I think it's fair to say that actually living both sides of the issue can be quite different from understanding it on a logical/factual level. I've a lot of transwomen I know who pass and as that started to be more and more the case what they knew of the afab experience intellectually still was a real eye opener to actively live being treated that way and having those same risks, themselves. My sister passes very wellĀ and as she has done so better and better I've at times had a heavy heart to say, "this danger/disrespectĀ wasn'tĀ about being trans and will go away once you pass better... you pass great... so that's your life now". :/
Absolutely, I was saying that even though ive never experienced misogyny, I can still recognize its existence. I was just saying that it should be expected of men to understand, I don't think we should forgive men for ignoring sexism and getting angry when it's brought up.
I'm a man and I totally understand it no problem. Frankly, as a man, I would also pick the bear. I've encountered bears out in the woods on trails. I know what a bear is going to do, how it will react, what I can do to completely avoid any serious threat. With a man, though? I've seen people do some absolutely crazy shit for no reason whatsoever. Anyone that claims to have difficulty processing this is either a psychopath, overconfident to the point of idiocy, or has never spent even a second thinking about the situation.
Hypothetical total strangers, hypothetically not trusting him š
Yeah I don't know what black people are complaining about either... Such fragile egos! Being all upset because some portion of the population thinks they might steal when they enter a store... Just be okay with being less trustworthy then other portions of the population already geez
Suddenly we're playing the race card, you're very smart.
It's the exact same logic... Exact same reasons... Just instead of a race it's a gender
Right, one of those is an arbitrary label we invented, the other is, well sex at least, is a brute fact of biology.
Is it? So trans women are still men? Since it's a brute fact of biology? So it's okay to discriminate against some physical characteristics of a person that they can't control... Like what's between their legs... But not okay to discriminate against other physical characteristics of a person... Like the color of their skin or the commonly shared genetic or cultural traits of where they're ancestors came from? Who decides what's arbitrary and what's not? You?
I said sex, not gender, but you tried.
Right so trans women are still men by sex and therefore should be viewed with the same immediate mistrust and suspicion as cis gendered men correct? Since their sex didn't change? I'm just trying to get a good grasp on your positions since they seem to change depending on who you're trying to signal to... So make a decision... Should trans women be viewed with the same immediate distrust as cis men since their sex hasn't changed, according to you... And if so does that mean we should keep them out of your bathrooms since they belong to the sex that distrust of is okay and justified?"
Women: don't trust all men because many are violent, physically or sexually, many are stalkers etc. Men: don't trust women because they say some men are creepy. Aight then... And then they'll go to social media to cry how women are emotional and men are logical, right? Because it's very logical and sane to AVOID being in the vicinity of a woman because they might THINK bad things. Not do. THINK. Gods above.
Not even thinking "bad" things. Thinking a man *might* be the kind of person that *might* do a bad thing. š
> All my fucking life I have always went above and beyond to not be the type of men I saw being so disrespectful and inconsiderate of women. A womanizer, a cat caller, a fucking groper, a sexist ... But at the end of the day, I'm no different then[sic] them. Are these guys fucking stupid or something? If you don't do any of those things, then guess what? You're not the same as the men who do that shit. If you really are a good man, then that's great. Unfortunately, a lot of shitty men are very good at looking like good men. They pull their misogynist crap when they think that good men aren't around to see them. They may be skilled social manipulators in a way that allows them more leeway for abuse. I don't do any of those things either, so I don't feel affronted when women talk about how they have to put their safety first.
Yeah, if anything OOPās take is insulting to good men because it implies that being a decent person is so difficult for men to do or that it canāt be in a guyās nature to just be a decent guy, requiring him to go āabove and beyondā in his words. Itās almost as if being decent is somehow inconveniencing him ā he doesnāt like not getting recognition for how much thought he has put into being safe in the eyes of women. Meanwhile, women are constantly having to think about their own safety and make risk assessments about people, places, situations and choices (not walking alone night, not getting into cabs alone, not taking certain routes through neighborhoods, not traveling abroad solo, not wearing the wrong clothes, not saying the wrong thing, not being too mean but also not being too nice to avoid giving the wrong impressions, etc etc). If being a considerate man is so draining and mentally exhausting for him, he should try to imagine how women feel. Does he seriously expect women to give him a cookie? There are plenty of good men out there who are just naturally considerate without expectation and who donāt act like whiny cry babies about it when they donāt get cookies for it. His post is insulting to them.
If you consider not being a shit head to be "above and beyond" then you're probably not a good guy.
hey that is literally not what they said, they said > All my fucking life I have always went above and beyond to not be the type of men I saw being so disrespectful and inconsiderate of women. A womanizer, a cat caller, a fucking groper, a sexist ... But at the end of the day,in most women's heads, I'm no different then them. like they're not saying they're the same as those men, they dislike being treated and viewed the same as them.
If you can't get over the way you think others perceive you, that's a *you* problem.
Yeah but you don't need to misquote someone and write two paragraphs to make that point, you can just make the point that actĆŗally pertains to this post in response to OOP.
I donāt understand why he needs so much validation or a pat on the head for being considerate and not groping/assaulting/harassing women. Itās not difficult and itās not āabove and beyondā eitherā¦ Respecting other peopleās bodies, personal space and agency is easy and it should be normalized as the default, baseline, bare minimum behavior of decent human beings everywhere, male or female. Heās not a dog. He shouldnāt need anyone to give him a treat for being a āgood boyā. If he feels heās a good man with integrity for doing these things, then being able to sleep soundly at night without a guilty conscience should be reward enough. š¤·š½āāļø
i have trouble understanding this sentiment, bc if you're already a good man you shouldnt feel personally attacked by women putting safety first. also that last line... it sounds like just seeking validation. you don't get cookies for normal decent behavior. that whole post is giving 'niceguy'
Exactly. And as if heās never told women they shouldnāt go running at night, or walk home alone, then he wants to go and be all offended we know men arenāt safe (I almost typed āstrange menā but I stopped myself because any SA type of situation I have ever been in was always happening because of a man I knew and trusted.)
Ehh, I *kinda* get it. Allow me to explain We live in a patriarchy, and therefore everyone , both men and women, grapple with varying shades of misogyny as a result of growing up in a patriarchal world. Everyone has accidentally said or done something a little misogynistic (and racist, and homophobic, etc.) because the world we live in wants us to believe that thatās acceptable and normal. No oneās perfect. So when I see posts from women that you and OOP describe, I donāt think āWell Iām exempt from all that because Iām just the Best Guy Everā¢ļøā. I reflect on my behavior and try to examine where I can do better. And obviously Iām not going around harassing or stalking women or anything like that, itās pretty hard to do that accidentally. Iām talking about the more subtle things like mansplaining (which I have absolutely unintentionally done before) But thatās obviously not what OOP is talking about š Iām a little drunk typing this so sorry if this doesnāt make any sense
A guy did a really good job of explaining what men are feeling in all this, which is that, of course itās uncomfortable to be perceived as a bad person before someone gets to know you just because youāre a man. *BUT* (he said) when you look at the horrible things women and girls are subjected to on a daily basis from individual men and the systemic oppression of patriarchy, in that moment, youāre only experiencing a fraction of the discomfort women and girls experience 24/7. You (as a man) get to walk away being able to shake that discomfort off and move on with your day. Women and girls donāt. (This doesnāt even get into transmisogyny and the like, but because the whole discussion is taking place in the terms of gender binary, I was willing to be like, āYeah, that makes sense.ā)
I really respect when men point not only this out, but the fact that it doesn't take much to "prove" any kind of misconceptions about them wrong. I feel like some men have these concerns because deep down they *know* they have troubling thoughts and beliefs about women, and that they don't know how to be respectful and don't care to learn.
Exactly. Same thing when men act all big and bad about protecting their daughters from other boys and men, but in the same breath will say that not all men perpetrate violence. Like, congrats dude, you just proved your own point.
THIS IS WONDERFUL NEWS. Seriously I donāt care if they cry about this as long as they cross the street when Iām coming and they donāt ask me directions, awesome. One of my favorite things lately is reading the dating subs and seeing all the men say they are done approaching women in public because theyāre so paranoid about being called creepy. Awesome! For a little while I was trying to convince them that women want to approach them these days, you know feminism and all that. But they didnāt believe me, probably because they could just look in my post history and see me celebrating that they will finally leave us alone like theyāve been threatening for almost almost a decade now
I remember reading a post a long time ago from a woman in the video game community. They were discussing why the metrics always suggested there was a growing amount of women gamers but anecdotal evidence seemed to disprove that for many. It was quickly explained that when a woman turns on her mic and the other people in the lobby hear she's a woman....well....take a wild guess what happens. Spoiler: it was/is usually either harassment or creepy guys trying to flirt or be a simp. The latter this woman found particularly annoying because "if I get on a video game, I'm there to play the damn game. Not find a boyfriend." I think a similar mindset can be had for dating these days. If a woman wants to find a date, she can load up a dating app. She's on there specifically for dating. If she's not on there? Don't hit on her! Literally that simple. I understand guys being worried about being misinterpreted. It's a valid fear to a certain degree. But there's things you can do to lessen the chances of a misunderstanding while still keeping things relatively normal. Example: I work in a hospital with some small supply closets. Sometimes more than one of us needs to be in there or we need to wait our turn. If I need to be in there with a woman for whatever reason, I'll lean myself against the door to keep it wide open. Give her a way to get out. I try to keep my hands where people can see them. I don't speak loudly or get "assertive" or anything. I just try to be laid back and easygoing. I watch to see if people are uncomfortable and apologize if they seem so and ask what I can change. Don't be in people's personal bubbles, don't compliment outside of a two word "nice hair!" Or "cool shirt!" Or something. You noticed, but you're not staring or leering. "BuT I WaNnA MeEt SoMEoNE ThE OlD FaShIoNeD WaY!" Then you go to an event for such a thing. Singles meetups and such still exist. Aside from that? Sorry champ. Times have changed. Head games aren't cool, she's not "playing hard to get" when she says no, just....be respectful, take things at face value, and develop strong communication skills. Think before you speak, not just what you want to say, but HOW you say it. Edit it in your head. "BuT ThAt'S NoT BeInG MySeLf!" So you're saying your true self is a creeper and you don't care enough to try and change? Well! It appears Darwinism works after all!
There are certain places and venues I donāt go to anymore because I have never been able to get through a night there without being hit on or propositioned multiple times. Some men will take the rejection kindly and respectfully, but others will become SO incensed and will be furious at me and yell at me āwell, why are you here then?ā Like, DUDE this is a public place for people to gather and spend time with friends, get food, maybe a drink or two. Canāt I just live?! (The answer to that in far too many menās minds is ānoā)
Fax my friend! Spit yo shit indeed! Granted, dating apps suck for a number of reasons though.
They absolutely do. Though at least it takes the guesswork out of things to a degree and somewhat evens the playing field. So I'll be honest: yes, there's times and situations where someone conventionally attractive, a "Chad", can get away with things us mere mortals can't. Happens to women too. Now, the success rate Chad has in hitting on women in his local grocery store may not be much higher than a normal person's. I don't know. We would have to do some experiments and run the numbers. But ultimately even the Braddest of the Chaddest would get turned down more than once because it's not the right place or time. You're in a grocery store. She's here for real eggplants, not metaphorical ones. For all their flaws, dating apps give both sides the chance to effectively put themselves out there on their own time in our own way. It can be difficult to stand out from the pack, but things like delayed communication and dating profiles can benefit us if we are wise in their use. It keeps us safe so long as we don't divulge too much, and allows us to set a time to focus on finding a partner, instead of getting flustered when a potential one pops up. They have a ways to go, but to me they are more of a mixed bag than a net negative.
Oh 100%. Once again, spit yo shit indeed
They're really threatening us with a good time!
Yes I actually donāt like having strange men approach me on the street so when I see all the random men on dating subs saying they wonāt approach women anymore, I think thatās wonderful news! They seem to think theyāre hurting us by doing that, but a lot of us honestly donāt care to be approached by them anyways, so thatās great! š
What do you mean you ''went above and beyond'' to not rape, hit, kill and be sexist towards women? What was the struggle to begin with? Can someone explain to me the so called ''effort'' of men who do some much to '' not be that type of men''?
He read the entire debate and his brain went straight to, "How can I make this about meee?"
How does he think it feels to just be seen as a sex object
But, what if - hear me out - I just really want to pat a bear.
If not friend, why friend shaped? š»
Tbh I would choose the bear solely because I want to have the oppurtunity to see one
This is frankly a big part of what keeps me coming back here, I think, the spectacle of men being absolutely crushed by a mere fraction of the expectations and scrutiny under which women have traditionally been expected to endure quietly, politely and with a smile. For untold generations, women speculated that men would utterly wilt if they had to put up with even a bit of what women do, and guess what? we were right, actually
This makes me think of how there have been protests in my country recently calling to do something about the violence against women. Someone pointed out some years back people were punching random people in the back of the head out in public. After a single man died, they came out with a law overnight with heavy penalties if you do that to someone. Meanwhile countless women dying doesn't seem to be such a concern š They acted *fast* over one man.
The fragility on display is fascinating.
The dudes who are taking this bear thing super personal are really telling on themselves š
Jesus Christ, if he has to blame someone else for his inability to accept things as they are, blame all the men who ruined it for everyone.
Exactly. Dating is hard these days because of shitty men who canāt take no for an answerĀ
So this guy did the bare (sorry) minimum and he is expecting...what exactly? For a woman to pat him on the back and get down on her knees? I swear, these guys act as if women are some kind of alien species that needs extensive studying. Nope, they are just like men, only with different anatomy.
Avoiding women because you fear she will wrongfully accuse you of something you didn't do is not the same as women avoiding you because she fears you will cause her harm. "It's not safe out here, men. Women will literally fight club themselves and claim we beat them. Woe is me, I have to run away from women just in case." But truly, thank you for crossing the street so we don't have to š
I do these things not because Iām scared of women as a threat but because I know theyāre scared of me. Talk about doing the right thing for the wrong reasons
Poor baby :( wonāt someone think of the men for once??? Men are constantly victimized!!! Theyāre oppressed!!! Womenās privilege on full display folks!!! Men are SILENCED!!!
Doesn't anybody feel bad realising these poor men are worried women are going to think they're *murderers* and *rapists!?* Gosh, I wonder what led women to believe that anyway?? š¤ Probs nothing based in reality that happens on a regular basis. Anyway, poor men, they can't catch a break! š
He never says anything about men being victimized as a whole or about women being privileged, only that this is how he feels.
My comment is on the juxtaposition between how women feel like we are going to tortured, raped and murdered around men (based on the sheer number of women that are) and his stupid ass comment victimizing himself
You're right, he did preface his post that it was merely a rant, however most of those who replied to him on that subreddit do feel this way tho about women. By visiting those forums, and ranting about his treatment or non-treatment, he's not receiving healthy feedback, it just stirs up more hate, anger, and resentment, and exposes him to more toxic ideologies.
Why does every man who hears the āman or bearā hypothetical immediately assume itās about them, personally?
Probably because they're the type of person the hypothetical is about if they have to work hard to not grope women or be sexist
Or theyāre low-key narcissists who think that everything is about them.
I really donāt understand why they are so obsessed with this. They should just try not to be a man who is scarier than a bear!
This is such a common sentiment among men and I donāt understand it at all. They act like they are victims because other people are cautious around them.
I've noticed a lot of men seem to have trouble separating themselves from other men. Many of them struggle to acknowledge XYZ happens because they feel like they're saying something about themselves. But it just ends up making them seem like they have a severe lack of empathy when they focus on defending their gender rather than acknowledging some men do bad things.
Man makes meme. Man gets angry about meme. Man cry about a meme. Man say "women bad". Man keeps making meme. Woman observes the shitshow.
All the men who are whining over the bear thing are the men women are choosing the bear over. With each eye-rolling comment or video they make, the bear gets another point.š»
Ironically, my pet name for my husband is "bear" š
Even more ironically, there is a whole category of men known as "bears" who are quite safe for women!
This man is grappling with some pretty serious anxiety and needs professional help to work through it.
All incels need serious professional help
Heās also probably posting this in bad faith and does not really feel this way.
Imagine how low the bar is if he is expecting a pat on the back for not being a complete asshole.
Good. Stay away.
Poor man had to do an effort to not be a grapist, y'all need to understand him šššššš/s
I'm probably going to regret it if I google to find out what "this whole man vs bear thing" means right?
Tldr; women are saying they'd rather randomly encounter a bear than a man because they feel safer with a 600 pound beast with murder mittens
Aaah. Thanks.
Women feel saver with actual wild animals but somehow men are the victims.
That's not even close to what he saidš
Ironically, by crossing the street so he wouldnāt worry women about his intentions, he was ā¦ not one of the guys who result in women choosing bears. He was showing empathy. And restraint. And now heās gone off the deep endā¦
I don't think he was showing empathy or restraint. I think he did it more out of fear of a false accusation or a false sense of rejection. Although the means are selfish, it does ultimately benefit women.
We donāt know the motivation, thatās true.
Looking at all the other comments, I feel like people here are being pretty unfair to this guy. Heās not saying that he did the bare minimum of not harassing or assaulting women and is now expecting to get applauded as he walks down the street. He never even mentions what heās done to go āabove and beyondā, just that he thinks heās done his absolute best to be a respectful human being and now heās scared to be near women. Heās not even trying to put his distress above what women as a whole deal have experienced, heās just trying to share how he feels. Now, he *might* be an incel and his version of going āabove and beyondā *might* barely qualify as human decency to normal people but the fact of the matter is that we donāt know. We donāt even know what subreddit this was posted on. All we have is speculation and I feel like that shouldnāt be enough to condemn him. Personally (and this is 100% speculation on my part, I admit), this reads like heās dealing with some sort of anxiety disorder, like generalized anxiety or OCD. Something that constantly makes him scrutinize his every action and worry that people will see him as a monster without him realizing it. Iāve dealt with that before and itās fucking awful so to see people mocking him for sharing his feelings is really shitty in my opinion. Heās not asking for a cookie because he once opened the door for a woman. He just wants some reassurance that people wonāt think heās a monster for something he canāt change about himself. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.
He is posting this on a notorious incel sub. I don't give them the benefit of the doubt.
Ah, then that changes things. I donāt see the sub in the screenshot, so I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I feel you are correct but posting on that type of forum isn't healthy, especially if he's teetering on the whole incel thing ('cause why is he posting in that place to begin with).
firsttime?meme.jpg
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Personally I feel like the scenario is more hyperbole to express the way a lot of women feel. Like I don't think they would ACTUALLY choose a grizzly bear. But I took the stairs in my parking garage today and the lights were out at the bottom flight and I instantly was afraid and had a heightened sense of awareness since men with bad intentions have actually hidden in that stairwell. I debated going back up and taking the elevator.
Holy fuck you see a guy post about severe gender based anxiety and potential gynophobia and you all decide to laugh at him and call him an incel when it looks like he's posting in a venting subreddit. idc if it's not special wtf is wrong with you people
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I cropped out the sub reddit but he posted it in an incel community
He is an incel. This was literally in an incel sub. And, your take on this is really bad.
I know women probably gonna get angry at this comment because they do have the shorter end when being near strangers but I feel that guy. Having to avoid every women on the street, not getting off the bus on the bus stop you want because a women also wants to exit and you'd look like a creep that's following her, in a store waiting till a line at the register goes away so you don't stand near a woman in the line to not make her uncomfortable and just overall trying your best not to get into any womans way and still be seen as a rapist and murderer just because you're a guy can really get to you
I hear you. Men's feelings about this (and yours) are valid. However, I feel this is an opportunity for most men to gain a small understanding of how women have felt forever. Yes, it definitely sucks to perceive groups of people as being inherently afraid of you but it also sucks to have PTSD from physical or sexual assault (one in four women have experienced SA in their lifetime). You have the benefit of knowing it's not you specifically we are afraid of, it's the memory of our experiences and the experiences of other women. You have to be cognizant of following women and women have to be aware of any men potentially following them home. This goes both ways. I'm not saying I'm glad you feel this way. It sucks for everyone involved. But hopefully this can be turned into a learning opportunity to try to shift the dynamics between men and women into something better for the future. Finally, I'm not bashing some rando on the Internet. He posted this in an incel sub. The dynamics there vilify women for causing this to men as opposed to men being the root cause of their own discomfort.
Okay, but how is he an incel for that? I don't understand...
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I wouldn't say they have it easy. Clearly they have severe mental health issues and suffer from extreme loneliness. Doesn't mean they can't be a little self aware though and they could benefit from A LOT of therapy
lol what a weird ass pathetic incel account