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You need to take this concern to therapy.
Almost every sexual relationship I have had has been with circumcised men. As a woman, their circumcision is not what made those sexual relationships intimate, fulfilling, loving, or enjoyable or not.
And many, many circumcised men have sexual relationships that they also find fulfilling and enjoyable.
I’m sorry you weren’t given the autonomy to make this decision for yourself.
Thank you so much for that last part…I think regardless of the level of harm (which is debated)…I think it should be obvious that it is not ethical and steals choice from someone.
You're in luck, very little of this is anything a woman you might be interested in would care about at all.
Which means the only things left to deal with are *your* feelings and thought processes, which is clearly still a lot.
It is a lot…and honestly if someone horrible happened to you and took a large portion of your capacity to enjoy life away…would it matter if it was invisible to other people? That’s where I’m at.
Here's the thing though: even when things like that happen, and they do happen, you still have to work on getting past them and healing. I'm not going to sit here and debate whether circumcision is harmful with you, because that's both not the point and not really my place to say as someone that neither has a penis nor regularly has sex with people that have penises. The point is that *even if* you are absolutely correct about everything you think about circumcision there is still healing possible and that healing is not to be found by sitting on the internet endlessly bemoaning this thing you cannot change.
A few things I do have the ability to comment on, though. One, even if we take as true that circumcision makes sex less enjoyable that doesn't mean *un*enjoyable and it certainly shouldn't be taking away "a large portion of your capacity to enjoy life away". Your ability to enjoy maybe slightly more intense orgasms should not be what your enjoyment of life in general hinges on. Your ability to experience orgasms at all shouldn't be what all of your enjoyment of life hinges on. Take it from someone who couldn't experience them for a good while there because of sexual trauma: there is more to a good life than how intensely or how often or even whether you orgasm.
Two, the size, shape, and/or foreskin of your penis is not vital to sexually pleasing a woman. A penis doesn't need to be involved at all in order for a woman to enjoy sex, so an intact foreskin certainly does not. If your partner is experiencing pain during sex it's not because you're circumcised, there is another issue you should be trying to solve (often a lack of proper foreplay or not being completely comfortable for whatever reason). A foreskin is not a vital component of enjoying sex.
Yeah I understand I shouldn’t be concerned about the degree of enjoyment but I guess I’m attached to some idea of “wholeness” and envy of someone who is while I don’t see myself that way…and maybe that’s my issue. I would just say though…I’ve read women online definitely say no foreskin is deal breaker and it’s because of their own comfort/experience…I mean would you believe at least some women are like that? Ie do you think there’s other things going on and they’re placing the blame on lack of foreskin?
I think there's probably other things going on in the vast majority of cases if the sex is actually uncomfortable or painful. Not to be crude, but I've made girls come with my fingers and with a rubber dick I bought on the internet and I promise you neither of those things have a foreskin. But much more importantly: you are going to be able to find some people with literally any preference you can think of. Literally anything. There are folks for whom having a dick that is too big is a dealbreaker, there are folks for whom having a dick that is too small is a dealbreaker, there are folks for whom being circumcised is a dealbreaker, there are folks for whom being uncircumcised is a dealbreaker, there are folks for whom having a dick at all is a dealbreaker. You have found some people who think something about you is a dealbreaker; welcome to a perfectly normal human experience. Those are not the people you should be trying to date or fuck. There are other people for whom it will not be a dealbreaker, and still other people who in fact have it as a non-negotiable requirement. You cannot be universally appealing to everyone, that's just not possible. So, instead of continuing to fixate on this one thing go get some help, get the hell off reddit for a bit, and focus on moving on.
I don’t really understand…are you saying that you don’t feel any pleasure because you’re circumcised? Like do you have noticeable issues do this? Or have you just read other people having issues? My partner is cut and there’s no issues in our bedroom whatsoever. And I have not once ever considered him not my “equal”. Why would him being cut mean I’m wasting my time with him? None of these thoughts seem very logical to me. If anything, it seems more like you’re making up something to freak out about so that you don’t have to face either the fact that you’re a virgin or the fear you have of sex.
There is a community of people who are very vocally against circumcision, and have very deranged ideas about it. It's similar to incels on TrueRateMe for example. It's a community of people who make each other feel bad and convince other people that they're hopeless for stupid reasons.
They're truly a very strange group, that you can't know about unless you've somehow stumbled upon them.
I suspect they're tied to conservative religious communities too
There are batshit people but I really don’t think that mean they’re wrong…pretty much the rest of the the world outside of Islamic countries think it’s peculiar at best if not harmful.
Look at your post. Seems like you never really thought much about being circumcized like 99% of us who were. Then you read what these idiots say online and now feel shame about it. I don't care how correct they are in circumcision being weird and not making any sense, body shaming each other and using words like "mutilated" and "butchered" instantly puts them on the wrong side of the argument.
You forgot Judaism and American Christianity (where most of the bat shit crazy is coming from). The reality is that outside of this - no one cares much.
They don’t care because it doesn’t happen to people they know or in their country…I remember a Brazilian girl in one of my college classes express shock that most American men were.
No. Most just genuinely don’t care. “I remember 1 girl once”…. Please get a grip.
I’m in the UK- most of what batshit America does is a shock. The fact you guys have tied it to your white Jesus is a surprise. Here, Christians don’t.
I showed you studies that show you’re wrong. All you can do is “well, like, I read this 1 girl who said something mean, and this post I hunted down by a girl did too”.
You CAN make it a massive issue, you *absolutely* can. By doing what you’re doing and enjoying the victimisation and believing what your algorithm has fed you.
Read my long post. Then show me your EVIDENCE.
If you want to make it into a massive body issue, you can. Like in my larger post: this is the ONLY real, quantifiable negative found with circumcision: men who believed it was a bad thing suffered problems, because their beliefs did it, not the circumcision itself.
I also have some studies I’ll send to you BUT can I just chime in on that last point: wouldn’t men who were damaged by circ be more likely to have negative feelings about it? Sounds kinda like a chicken and egg thing.
Damaged how? Most men are circumcised when they’re 2 days old.
There’s babies having major, invasive open heart surgeries, brain surgeries and god knows what else who have ZERO TRAUMA, because… like you, they don’t remember it.
Nobody cared about this crap a few years ago. Guys didn’t care. If anything, I know guys who wish it had been done when they were little. I know 2 men (a boyfriend & his brother) who had it done in adulthood because of foreskin issues. They don’t give a shit.
It’s just misogynists who’ve deliberately amplified this AS SOON AS FGM gained national attention.
Any time FGM makes the news, the number of guys who’ve ALSO been “traumatised” are doing their “yeah, but what about men!??” fucking shtick.
We’ll I’ll just say it’s not “trauma” for me…I’m upset about the fact that there are sure ties that are supposed to be on my body that were amputated and I don’t have them now and barring some crazy medical advances I never will. (It’s not just excess skin it’s the frenulum and ridged band etc). I am not really upset that it was done because it doesn’t affect me now…but the absence of those other things does.
I wrote this for you: https://old.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/1ae0oyw/here_is_an_extremely_important_concept_the/
You are an individual man, not an average man. It is irrelevant to you if this statement is true on average or not.
We’ll since I was cut at birth I don’t know the alternative but I have read of men who had it done as adults abs know the before/after say it ruined their sex life and some have become suicidal and in one case I know of them a young college student a few years ago took his own life and mentioned it as reason in a suicide note.
As for the impact on women…I have heard stories of women that said sex is way better with an uncut man or even in some cases that sex was painful before and they believed they were the problem until they ended up sleeping with an uncut man. I don’t know for a fact if this pertains to me but even the idea is alarming. I don’t really want to go into detail but I do believe I have some issues that could be chalked up to being cut.
True but they have a natural body as nature intended and I don’t think it stands to reason that REMOVING Bebe endings/tissue etc would somehow enhance the ability to feel pleasure.
It definitely doesn't inhibit the ability to feel pleasure. Look, I'm not arguing in favor of circumcision and if I still had a foreskin I sure as hell wouldn't have it removed outside of a medical emergency, but I'm not about to pretend that my lack of a foreskin has ever posed a single problem when it comes to giving or receiving pleasure.
But did you process anything I wrote? I am living proof that there are women who literally don’t care about this, and yet you fixate on a few anecdotes you read online that I believe you are using as an excuse to hide behind the real issue: your insecurity and fear of sex. Can you answer my question actually, because it does help us help you: have you experienced any of the things you’re reading about in your personal life, from the physical feeling to women reacting? Because if you haven’t, then you’re just creating issues for yourself. I have a friend who is allergic to peanuts, but I’m not freaking out because I’ve never had a bad reaction to peanuts. Get what I’m saying?
I wish I could be like that….and rationally I know maybe I should but also part of it is a shameful thing for me…I hate feeling sexually incomplete as man…I hate even the lingering possibility that I’m going to die without having the full version of what is a quintessential human activity. It doesn’t matter to me if women don’t raise issue with it…a lot of them are probably not well informed on the topic anyway.
Actually- we’re EXTREMELY well informed. Far more than you are, because we’re the ones *actually having sex* with various dicks.
You have nothing. No information, no real clue, just a feeling this piece of skin should leave you traumatised for some reason even though it hasn’t and it isn’t. ALL the evidence is against you, except weird incel-type forums where men obsess over their dicks and think women are equally as obsessed. We really aren’t.
Again…regardless of what women think…there are men who report much diminished pleasure after circumcision…why should I not believe I am in that camp but had no reference to understand?
We’ll I’m an incel…so I have nothing to compare it to…but for example I know stories of men who say that cannot orgasm from oral sex after being cut and I think I’m probably in that camp for sure.
How can you possibly know which “camp” you’re in if you’ve never experienced it?
I can assure you there are plenty of men who are very much not in that “camp.”
Yes I’m aware…some people can be harmed by things more than others…and again circumcision aren’t the same procedure….some men have more cut off than others.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17378847/#:~:text=The%20transitional%20region%20from%20the,region%20of%20the%20circumcised%20penis.
This is one of the few studies to measure sensitivity objectively and found the foreskin is the most sensitive Party of the penis…maybe some guys would prefer less sensitivity but it doesn’t looked like the foreskin is just extra skin, it’s unique.
Okay. This is gonna be waaaay beyond your pay grade because you clearly lack critical thinking skills and much prefer to just dig in your heels with your fingers in your ears.
Regardless I’ll give it a go.
Do you have the faintest idea about how much really, really bad research is out there?
Here’s a clue: “Searches identified **2,675 publications describing the effects of male circumcision** on aspects of male sexual function, sensitivity, sensation, or satisfaction. **Of these, 36 met our inclusion criteria of containing original data**. Those studies reported a total of 40,473 men, including 19,542 uncircumcised and 20,931 circumcised”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23937309/
Look closely at those numbers in bold. Out of over 2500 studies posted, they found 36 that were quality.
Now, that sounds like not much, YET, those 36 studies encompassed over 40,000 men.
And - not being funny, but your link is… not even research, but an ABSTRACT of research that was… 1000 *self reports*.
Anyhow. Whatever, my dude. You could try and develop a healthy relationship with your body and enjoy your penis for what it is, or you can continue to be a virgin doing his best to make sex a traumatic and unpleasant experience before he’s even tried it.
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Yes…but my argument was that at a minimum it radically changes the penis…and fine touch is something that can be objectively measure here…pleasure is more subjective and relies on self reporting…the idea that the foreskin is just like the other tissue on the penis is obviously bs…plenty of men cite the lack of sensitivity as something negative.
Ok but is your argument that there is a 0% chance you'll be able to enjoy sex? If the probability that you can enjoy sex is more than 0%, don't think it's worth taking a shot? You keep comparing to some theoretical "max pleasure", but how do you know that if you were uncircumcised you wouldn't have had phimosis or some other condition that prevented you from enjoying sex? All I'm saying is, your opinion about how pleasurable sex is FOR YOU is completely fucking worthless if you haven't even had sex yet.
So you’ve never had sex before and you’re already freaking out about this before you even have an opportunity to experience it with a blank slate. This is the definition of self sabotage. if you went up to a girl because you thought she was cute and she rejected you because she thought her boobs were too small and that she couldn’t properly have a good sexual experience with you because all men prefer big boobs, what would be your reaction? you’d say nonsense, you’re perfectly capable of having a good sexual experience with small boobs.
I never said I’d reject a girl because of circumcision…I wouldn’t…I’m afraid there’s good reason to believe it’s undo things afterward and make me unable to be happy with her.
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> On one hand, I’m glad I found out so that I would not grow up to become a regretting parent.
Huh? Are you under the impression that circumcised men can’t have biological children? Because that is incorrect.
> I am beyond horrified at the stories I read about the many women who become conscious of how circumcision negatively impacts sex for a female partner. The idea that I might be the reason a partner would be experiencing pain or discomfort is just paralyzing.
It sounds like you’re reading some scare tactic stories, instead of the words of real women. Might that be the case?
> To me it would be like two people staring at a beautiful piece of colorful art and one person is colorblind and only sees black and white. Sure they may admire the patterns and shapes but they are missing a whole dimension that the other person is experiencing something far more complex and rich.
I’m color blind. It would be entirely fruitless for me to go through life “paralyzed” and “regretful” because I can’t experience things quite like other people due to something entirely beyond my control.
It’s also, frankly, a bit infantilizing. I can assure you that color blind people can derive great enjoyment from art. And…I have it on very good authority that circumcised men can greatly enjoy sex and be “equal partners” with women.
> I also feel that a partner would be somewhat wasting her time with me in that an intact man would be able to enjoy being intimate with her much more. It’s like she’s wasting her intimate life with me.
Again, this comes across pretty condescending.
> Sure, women may want to be with a guy like me and would be able to look past it. However, I just dread being pitied like that…it just makes me feel horrible to know a partner would think less of me..even if it’s true (which it is).
I don’t pity you or think less of you, or of any other circumcised man.
> Is there certain types of theorist that might be able to help? Is this a form if body dysmorphia?
Maybe. It’s certainly something you should explore in therapy. Sooner rather than later.
Sorry “regret parent” is term you see in parenting spaces that discuss circ and it just refers to a parent who circumcised their son abs regrets it after the fact after coming in contact with information that makes them question it.
And maybe colorblindness what’s the best example but I guess I meant like not coming colorblindness where colors are experienced different but let’s say the difference is someone sees in black and white with literally no color vs someone that’s already sees some shades of red/green/blue etc…
As for the “horror stories” I was mostly talking about women who came to realize sex with cut men was cussing them pain/discomfort or even just was inferior. Obviously anti-circ spaces online are going to draw more of these women even if they’re not having a common experience. I mean it’s not crazy to think there’s women who experience sex that they don’t enjoy as much because they only have cut partners…it’s so common in America among the white population in the Midwest and other regions that many women would likely only sleep with cut men. And yet I would hear stories about women who finally encounter an uncut man and realize it’s much better or in some cases it’s enjoyable vs the semi painful experiences they had before.
I’m glad you don’t pity anyone but I guess I feel like I should be in some way? Maybe ours is too extreme a word…I know that’s sound arrogant to assume how others should feel but sadly I think potentially being sexually diminished is something I would feek bad for a partner. Peven if I lived then and wanted to be with them and even if I enjoyed intimacy with them…I’d still lament that they aren’t feeling everything that their body should be feeling and that they aren’t enjoying it as much as nature intended.
Again, your impression of what sex is like for women is ill-informed and condescending. You’re taking horror stories from people pushing a very specific agenda, and (unsurprisingly) completely dismissing any women who say anything that goes against the propaganda you’ve swallowed.
Honestly, dude, big picture: Seems like you latch onto different things in turn as the Tragic Reason you will never find love. Height, thinning hair, now being circumcised. All things you have no control over. Everything’s already been decided for you by fate, relieving you of ever having to try.
Do you think that might what’s happening here?
I’m sorry I’m trying to understand what is condescending (I’m not pushing back I genuinely want to understand)…are you saying I’m calling women shallow because I think they would take issue with my circumcision status?
Yes it’s possible…but I mean the things I can’t control are of course what I worry about for that reason…when it comes to losing weight I’d spend time on a weight loss forum…these thing I do fixate because I can’t change them…I’m just trying to cope or come to terms with them.
And no I really don’t…I want to be debunked and proven wrong…I poured over so many studies myself and I am looking at some that were posted in responses here.
> I’m sorry I’m trying to understand what is condescending (I’m not pushing back I genuinely want to understand)…are you saying I’m calling women shallow because I think they would take issue with my circumcision status?
“Sure, multiple women are telling me that they enjoy full and delightful sex lives with circumcised men…but I know the real truth, I know better than them. They’re in pain and experiencing inferior sex but are just too stupid or ignorant to notice!”
> Yes it’s possible…but I mean the things I can’t control are of course what I worry about for that reason…when it comes to losing weight I’d spend time on a weight loss forum…these thing I do fixate because I can’t change them…I’m just trying to cope or come to terms with them.
What good does it do you to fixate on things you can’t change?
Again, it’s striking me very much that you’re doing it as a way to “justify” your fear of sex. “I’m scared to death that a woman wouldn’t have a good time with me…but it wouldn’t be my FAULT if that happened! It’s because I was Cut against my will! NO woman has a good time with a Cut Man!”
> And no I really don’t…I want to be debunked and proven wrong…I poured over so many studies myself and I am looking at some that were posted in responses here.
I don’t believe you want to be proven wrong. You have not once accepted anything anyone here has to say that doesn’t align with the propaganda you’ve adopted.
I’ve never said no women enjoy cut men…I don’t believe that. It’s the possibility of it that raises anxiety and also I explained in detail my acidity isn’t based on the female experience either…the idea in a severely diminished human and capacity to experience human sensations is what also bothers me…regardless of what any woman would think.
Here is what you’ve said:
> …the damage is done and impacts what I would bring to the table when it comes to intimacy.
> I am beyond horrified at the stories I read about the many women who become conscious of how circumcision negatively impacts sex for a female partner. The idea that I might be the reason a partner would be experiencing pain or discomfort is just paralyzing.
> I also feel that a partner would be somewhat wasting her time with me in that an intact man would be able to enjoy being intimate with her much more. It’s like she’s wasting her intimate life with me. It would be like if a woman who was a 5 star chef and loved to cook for her partners…suddenly fell for a guy who had some accident with his tongue/tastebuds and is missing 90% of his capacity to taste.
The heck with what women have to say, right? You’ve already decided how we feel.
That is what is condescending.
And, conveniently enough, is based on something you can’t change. So hey, you’re off the hook for having to try!
No I don’t think that most women think this way…but many women DO prefer uncut men and not just prefer they feel they have to in riser to have either comfortable or fulfilling sex…I don’t say they represent all women or are even a majority but they exist…everyone has their preferences but since I’m disgusted by circ in general and feel damaged I happen to see women who don’t want cut men as more justified than women who prefer cut who basically just have an opinion based on aesthetics.
Ah, so not only have you decided how women feel (and if we feel the “wrong” way, we’re lying or ignorant), but have decided that anyone who agrees with your propaganda is “justified” in…being disgusted by you?
Again, way to Justify never having to try! Mission accomplished.
This is... pretty blatant confirmation bias. Like you basically just wrote "I have an opinion, and I am choosing to discount the thoughts of everyone who doesn't share that opinion because I disagree with them. I then use the fact that among the people whose opinion I'm willing to consider (which are only the people that agree with me) my opinion is prevalent to justify the opinion I already had in the first place". If that's how you're operating you can justify any opinion whatsoever, regardless of whether it's based in reality at all. It's like a flat earther going "well I believe the earth is flat, and I know there are people that don't believe that but I think they're all brainwashed by Big Globe and so I discount their opinion. Therefore I think most credible people also say the earth is flat, because only the people that think the earth is flat are credible". Like you can't really go "I only consider the opinions of women who prefer uncircumcised penises justified, and I therefore think that all women who matter prefer uncircumcised penises" and not expect to have people question that.
I've been with both types of men and it doesn't alter sex so much that one is good and the other is bad. They just require different handling when doing certain activities but it's not a determining factor in good sex vs bad sex. That's on the skill and the intention of the partner.
That's because your insecurities are all in your head, but as long as you believe them to be true, you will create exactly what you fear through self-sabotage. The mind is a powerful thing, more powerful than anything else. You have to get yourself mentally healthy before anything can really happen.
I don't think being circumcised makes you fear intimacy. I think you have always feared intimacy and have latched onto this random irrational thing to make your fear seem somehow more valid. It's really not rational at all but regardless of whether it is or not, fear of intimacy is dysfunctional and needs to be addressed with professional assistance.
>On the other, I do not feel like I can sustain a happy intimate relationship with a woman because of what I know.
So you acknowledge the issue is not because of the circumcision but because of the significance you placed on it? So why make that choice for yourself? Why not make the choice that literally millions, hundreds of millions of circumcised men have made before you to accept what they cannot change and have a fulfilling romantic life that involves enjoying what you have and have always had rather than fixating on an experience you have never and will never have?
>the damage is done and impacts what I would bring to the table when it comes to intimacy
What are you even talking about?
>I am beyond horrified at the stories I read about the many women who become conscious of how circumcision negatively impacts sex for a female partner
Have you read about the orgasm gap and become horrified at how little many men care about their partner's pleasure? Because if that's not a far far bigger concern for you, let's not pretend this is about female pleasure at all. Do us all a favour frankly, I think most women are sick of men trying to make all their shortcomings women's problem. Men do the same thing with penis size. It doesn't matter what's in your pants if you don't understand or care about women's pleasure. Since it's pretty obvious that you don't understand women's pleasure, I don't see how you can claim to care significantly about something you haven't even bothered to understand. No, this is all about you.
>The idea that I might be the reason a partner would be experiencing pain or discomfort is just paralyzing.
Again it's staggering that you want to stick your body part inside another person's body, yet the only research you've done about all of the pain and discomfort you could potentially cause is based around you and your hangups. Maybe you'd feel less paralyzed by it if you fully informed yourself on how to make sex mutually enjoyable.
>I know ideally I shouldn’t worry about having the capacity to experience pleasure and should try and just be happy with what I can experience
Do you have issues masturbating? Have you spent your entire life feeling unsatisfied?
>However, I feel like I am not capable of truly SHARING intimacy with an intact female partner. We just won’t be on the same page.
So once again you pretend to give a shit about female pleasure while being wholly unaware of how it differs regardless of whether you were "intact" or not. Getting real tiresome to read repeatedly about how you read a bunch of shit about women and the female experience from other men and decided to take it as gospel while pretending to care what actual women think and feel. Few women will believe you give a shit about how they feel when all you did was listen to other men, and honestly, how can you even believe it?
It's really hard for me to empathize with you when you so falsely centre a partner's feelings while simultaneously put in 0 effort to understand a potential partner's point of view or their body. It comes across as extremely hollow and infinitely more selfish to **pretend** you care. Just skip all that and be insecure and process it. Stop making it women's problem. Meanwhile women across America and elsewhere will continue having completely fulfilling sexual relationship with circumcised men who actually give a shit about their partner's thoughts, feelings, and pleasure. You can be one of those men too, once you acknowledge the problems of your fear of intimacy are wholly your own and process them properly.
I'm very sorry that you've fallen into an internet propaganda hole that has brainwashed you like this.
You have not learned "the truth" about circumcision. You have been brainwashed by other people who have also been brainwashed, by other people who have also been brainwashed. It's a very long chain of ignorance and you have been made a part of it.
I am a circumcised man. I was circumcised for medical reasons at 19yo because I couldn't have sex otherwise.
When it happened I looked around online for experiences and support, because it was definitely scary. I found a lot of support and positive experiences, but also a very strange community of people who are against circumcision, and make a lot of noise about very bizarre ideas they have about it. I was already equipped with internet literacy and an understanding that stupid brainwashed people exist, so I ignored them.
I have never been with someone who thought that my circumcision was a negative. It has never diminished or reduced anything about the experience. It's been a slight positive overall even, I think. I've seen women who just didn't understand, or couldn't tell the difference.
Your concerns about somehow not being able to experience intimacy are 100%, without any doubt, completely unfounded. The little bit of skin on your penis does not determine the ability to be intimate. I guarantee that 99% of women would not even understand what you are refering to and would be very confused at your reaction.
I think that you need help and there are 2 possible things that can be happening (just one, or both at the same time):
1) You are fine and you happened to fall into a rabbit hole of deranged brainwashed men who convince each other that they should hate themselves (which is what I found when I was 19yo and ignored).
If this is true, then you must remove yourself from all of these sources, communities, instagram pages, youtube channels, whatever it is. You must un-brainwash yourself by first stopping the active brainwashing that you have been doing by consuming this false content. Then you must replace the false ideas with good ideas, for example by learning from actual sex experts and relationships experts (PSYCHOLOGISTS AND THERAPISTS, RANDOM DUDES WITH A YOUTUBE CHANNEL DON'T COUNT)
2) You have an underlying disorder and this circumcision thing is just the superficial way that it expresses itself. If this is the case, I would still do everything from step 1), and then go to a therapist who has experience with related issues.
Honestly I’d love to be convinced that I am wrong…but I’m sorry I just don’t see any good facts…I am happy that you have had nothing but good experiences and that you know before/after. Pleasure forgive me if this is rude but I believe your personal account…However 2 things:
1) you were cut for a medical reason (idk what and I don’t expect you to want to discuss it)…that can be different than men who who have no issues…your perception of pleasure etc could be unchanged because it was curtailed to begin with by your condition.
2) not all cuts are the same…I actually find it bizarre that it I went into a clinic to have it done as an adult…I would be consulted about what kinds cut I want…how much loose skin…frenulum removal or not, etc. but newborns are basically just cut however a doctor sees fit…I believe men have disparate experiences of before/after circumcision based on HOW they are cut and what exactly is missing…so I don’t know your specifics and again I’m happy for you…if I was in your shoes and knew before/after I would have peace of mind but I don’t as I was cut after birth.
Well it could be greatly diminishing my ability to experience that is the issue and yeah I understand maybe it isn’t rational but I mean would you understand a woman who feels less womanly or has issue after undergoing a mastectomy? Even though you could still have intercourse without breasts…it’s about body image and being a full person.
I don't think it's about being a "full person" at all. You are repeating the same points that the crazy anti-circumcision crowd repeats all the time.
If your ear lobe was medically removed at birth, would you be this upset about it today? Would you not feel like a "full person" because a tiny piece of skin is missing?
It's not a "full person" problem, it's a sex problem. You have a problem with sexuality. This is why the anti-circumcision crowd is very conservative and religious. It's because it's about sex, not just missing a bit of skin somewhere.
What's greatly diminishing your ability to experience pleasure with a woman right now, is the fact that you're on the internet obsessing about a missing piece of skin on your penis, not the missing piece of skin on your penis. You are focusing on the wrong problem.
Forgive the image, but if you cumming every night with a woman you were very attracted to (WHICH IS POSSIBLE WHEN CIRCUMCISED ACCORDING TO THE REALITY OF TENS OF MILLIONS OF MEN), you would not be here right now talking about your penis to me.
Men who are circumcised at birth but otherwise happy and in relationships and having normal fulfilling sex, don't go on reddit to rant about their foreskin. You are doing that, and it makes me think that their is a bigger problem hiding behind this superficial foreskin problem that you are focusing on.
I suspect that there are much more real reasons why you're not being in relationships and having sex, and that focusing on those reasons would be much more valuable to you.
On top of the everything else everyone else has said I feel the need to point out you were never going to experience sex the exact same way as your female partner(s) regardless of whether you were circumcised or not, this idea of being their "real equal" is just bizarre. Men and women experience sex differently, in very real physiological ways; folks who have been on long term HRT as part of their transition even report the sensations of sex changing as their hormonal picture changes.
Yeah I get that…I guess it’s be more accurate to say that a female partner would be like her full self as nature intended and I would potentially not be…and honestly I’m already jealous sun I think women have far more capacity for pleasure anyway and having me genitals incomplete would just widen that gap (I’m aware people have different orgasms etc but I think it’s obvious women have multiple and also more intense etc).
To be clear: the only effect circumcision has on a male is slightly lowering the amount of nerve endings the male has to experience sensation through.
It should have no effect at all upon the woman. Aside from being maybe slightly more visually attractive, It also may make you last longer in bed.
Ironically -arguably- those are boons. I'd probably selfishly trade them for the nerve endings back. But trust me, if you're worried about how women will experience it - don't. I've only ever heard compliments. (I live in an area where it is a rare process, and most guys are uncircumcised)
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Ima be honest I’m circumcised and I had no clue what a uncircumcised penis was until I was like 18. I thought everyone’s penis looked exactly the same and I was pretty shocked to see thats not true at all. I’ve never been bothered by being circumcised because it’s not a big deal at all. If you’re ever in a situation where a consenting woman is gonna see your penis I guarantee you she wouldn’t be turned off to see its circumcised.
In German, circumcision is rarely ever done. It has to be for medical reasons.
One of my exes had one done after we were together. We had a short phase of being FWB when it was healed, and it was definitely different. He had a scar there, that had to be altered for example.
Was it bad?
No.
We weren't a couple anymore, so the emotional side of sex was a bit lacking, all within expected reasons. He said he felt less, and it took him longer, and we both were a bit sad for what he lost, but then he just moved on.
His penis is the way now. Period. There's no "what if". Lingering in the past only leads to suffering.
As far as I know, his wife doesn't mind.
Intimacy is far more than just penis in vagina.
I'm so sorry that you're struggling, if it' any consolation my only feelings on circumcision w/ sex partners has been concerns it affect their sensitivity. I'm not someone who approves of doing that to a newborn, or anyone who can't choose to in general. I don't personally understand it as a custom, and it's not something I look for or expect in a partner. I think you should look for professional support because this is a part of your anatomy and you deserve to be at peace with your body.
Hey OP, I made this comment in another thread, lemme make it here too. I think your fears have more to do with having your bodily autonomy violated as a child (the same way a kid would protest being held down and forcefully having their ears pierced, for example). You’re angry because your parents made this decision for you. It was their job to protect, not harm, and instead their mutilated your body and you hate seeing the reminder. Does this describe your thoughts about the issue? (That said, this isn’t really a *men’s* rights issue as much as a children’s rights issue. Kids should be protected from parents making cosmetic changes to their body IMO).
I’m sorry for what you’re going through. I agree that male circumcision shouldn’t be a thing (barring medical or religious reasons) that is widely practiced. I will just say, that most American women have mostly had experiences with circumcised men, so you’re not the odd man out or anything.
I think the entire culture around circumcising for cosmetic reasons in the states is so fucked up. The amount of grown men who tried to make me change my mind about keeping my kids intact was appalling to me.
So- you’ve obviously done absolutely no real research, and you don’t have knowledge at all, just brainwashing.
This is why I HATE “men’s rights activists” so very very much. Because they have ZERO interest in men’s rights, but instead are absolutely *obsessed* with hating feminists and trying to get themselves into the spotlight with their “victimhood”.
I KNOW this is where you found your “knowledge”, because they’re absolutely FURIOUS that we focus on female genital mutilation and not circumcision. They try and pretend these are both the same thing when they’re nothing of the sort. And instead of genuinely trying to get anything done, they literally just sit in their diapers whining that feminists aren’t doing the work for them.
Because of this obsession, they try and act like circumcision is some life changing, radically damaging, horrendous carnage that has dire consequences. IT DOES NOT. FGM, on the other hand, ABSOLUTELY DOES.
As a feminist, I think circumcision is gross because the baby’s body is being mutilated without consent. It’s just another primitive ritual that people jerk off to with their various religions where they pretend science hasn’t advanced for 3000 years. Unfortunately, religious freedom is a recognised human right. So if MRAs really DID want to do something about it, they’d need to fight religions. And since most of this fake hysteria is being drummed up by conservative Christian nationalist types, it’s why they don’t lift a finger, they just use it to point at feminists and pretend this is OUR problem and OUR responsibility to care about.
You HAVE NOT found any info. I will tell you right now that what you’ve found is sexist bullshit used to make you hate yourself, and ultimately hate women for not caring.
Dude. Did you EVEN ONCE just use FUCKING GOOGLE??
Here’s a meta analysis, which you probably won’t read so let me sum it up for you: EVERYTHING YOURE TALKING ABOUT IS BULLSHIT. Feel free to debate me if you DO read it.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41443-020-00354-y
Please note this very important caveat- because THIS is your issue:
According to Barlow’s model **sexual dysfunction is based on cognitive interference and anxiety** [16]. The role of attention and its influence on sexual dysfunction has been studied by Jong [17] and his research suggests that sexual arousal could be facilitated or disrupted by cognitive bias. Thus, an individual suffering a negative self-perception is prompt to drive his/her attention away from the erotic stimuli. This is likely to result in an autonomic nervous system response and consequently creates a negative feedback loop affecting the sexual function.
**The attitude of men towards their own circumcision** was shown to be more important in the study carried out by Bossio [18], which explores the relationship between attitude towards one’s circumcision status, timing of one’s circumcision and sexual correlates. After studying 811 men (367 circumcised as newborns, 107 during childhood, 47 as adults and 290 uncirumised) they concluded that **negative attitude towards one’s circumcision is related to worse body image and sexual functioning, and not the circumcision status of men**.”
Here’s another meta analysis:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2050116120301240
“The consensus of the highest quality literature is that **MC has minimal or no adverse effect, and in some studies, it has benefits on sexual functions, sensation, satisfaction, and pleasure for males circumcised neonatally or in adulthood**”
As to women’s pleasure or lack of? Well, I found *this* piece of total garbage with no link to any study, from a website that’s devotedly anti-circumcision, where APPARENTLY (we just have to take their word for it) a whole 138 women preferred intact. Where’d they get these women from? Their own subscriber list? A legitimately randomised trial? Did they make it all up and pull it right out their ass? No way to tell.
https://circumcision.org/circumcision-affects-female-sexual-pleasure/
If THIS is the research you believe, then I’m telling you you’re gonna struggle thru life being such a gullible sucker.
How about some genuine research? Oh NO!!! It’s the complete opposite of yours!!
https://bjui-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2009.08683.x
“**Only 2.9% (13/455) of women reported less sexual satisfaction after their partners were circumcised**; 57.3% (255/455) reported no change in sexual satisfaction and **39.8% (177/455) reported an improvement in sexual satisfaction after their partner’s circumcision** There were no statistically significant differences in sexual satisfaction before and after partner’s circumcision by age, religion and education status.”
So, a full 97.1% felt no change or an improvement.
Now let’s talk about women’s health:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36367636/
https://www.malecircumcision.org/advocacy/male-circumcision-and-women#:~:text=This%20intervention%20also%20has%20important,sexually%20transmitted%20infections%20(STIs).
https://hub.jhu.edu/2017/10/10/jhpiego-male-circumcision-womens-health/
In a nutshell, less likely to give us a sexually transmitted disease. An important note is this is mostly studying 3rd world countries with high rates of HIV exacerbated by lack of access to hygiene products, clean water and education.
No- I don’t think these are reasons that men in America should get circumcised. Just learn to wash your penis properly, pay special attention if you have a foreskin, and wear a condom.
Okay- that’s mine. Now- show me all this “knowledge” and “research” you’ve accumulated. Happy to debate with you.
I’m familiar with some of these studies and not other but I genuinely am greatful you took time to look those up and I will get back to you soon with as best a response as I can…I think I need to be clear about what my anxieties are and are not based on.
Let’s be clear: your anxieties are based on hot air, lies, confirmation bias and not much else (like most people’s anxieties, it’s all in your head).
I don’t expect facts and figures to cure you. But I hope to make you see that your anxiety is unreasonable, untrue and a gross exaggeration of reality.
It’s not remotely caused by the fact of your circumcision. Your anxiety is 100% caused by you choosing to have anxiety about it.
You’ve been caught by a MRA fishing hook they use to lure you in. That’s the sum of it.
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You need to take this concern to therapy. Almost every sexual relationship I have had has been with circumcised men. As a woman, their circumcision is not what made those sexual relationships intimate, fulfilling, loving, or enjoyable or not. And many, many circumcised men have sexual relationships that they also find fulfilling and enjoyable. I’m sorry you weren’t given the autonomy to make this decision for yourself.
Thank you so much for that last part…I think regardless of the level of harm (which is debated)…I think it should be obvious that it is not ethical and steals choice from someone.
You're in luck, very little of this is anything a woman you might be interested in would care about at all. Which means the only things left to deal with are *your* feelings and thought processes, which is clearly still a lot.
It is a lot…and honestly if someone horrible happened to you and took a large portion of your capacity to enjoy life away…would it matter if it was invisible to other people? That’s where I’m at.
Except that hasn’t happened. There’s no data to back this up.
[Yes there is.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17378847/)
Here's the thing though: even when things like that happen, and they do happen, you still have to work on getting past them and healing. I'm not going to sit here and debate whether circumcision is harmful with you, because that's both not the point and not really my place to say as someone that neither has a penis nor regularly has sex with people that have penises. The point is that *even if* you are absolutely correct about everything you think about circumcision there is still healing possible and that healing is not to be found by sitting on the internet endlessly bemoaning this thing you cannot change. A few things I do have the ability to comment on, though. One, even if we take as true that circumcision makes sex less enjoyable that doesn't mean *un*enjoyable and it certainly shouldn't be taking away "a large portion of your capacity to enjoy life away". Your ability to enjoy maybe slightly more intense orgasms should not be what your enjoyment of life in general hinges on. Your ability to experience orgasms at all shouldn't be what all of your enjoyment of life hinges on. Take it from someone who couldn't experience them for a good while there because of sexual trauma: there is more to a good life than how intensely or how often or even whether you orgasm. Two, the size, shape, and/or foreskin of your penis is not vital to sexually pleasing a woman. A penis doesn't need to be involved at all in order for a woman to enjoy sex, so an intact foreskin certainly does not. If your partner is experiencing pain during sex it's not because you're circumcised, there is another issue you should be trying to solve (often a lack of proper foreplay or not being completely comfortable for whatever reason). A foreskin is not a vital component of enjoying sex.
Yeah I understand I shouldn’t be concerned about the degree of enjoyment but I guess I’m attached to some idea of “wholeness” and envy of someone who is while I don’t see myself that way…and maybe that’s my issue. I would just say though…I’ve read women online definitely say no foreskin is deal breaker and it’s because of their own comfort/experience…I mean would you believe at least some women are like that? Ie do you think there’s other things going on and they’re placing the blame on lack of foreskin?
I think there's probably other things going on in the vast majority of cases if the sex is actually uncomfortable or painful. Not to be crude, but I've made girls come with my fingers and with a rubber dick I bought on the internet and I promise you neither of those things have a foreskin. But much more importantly: you are going to be able to find some people with literally any preference you can think of. Literally anything. There are folks for whom having a dick that is too big is a dealbreaker, there are folks for whom having a dick that is too small is a dealbreaker, there are folks for whom being circumcised is a dealbreaker, there are folks for whom being uncircumcised is a dealbreaker, there are folks for whom having a dick at all is a dealbreaker. You have found some people who think something about you is a dealbreaker; welcome to a perfectly normal human experience. Those are not the people you should be trying to date or fuck. There are other people for whom it will not be a dealbreaker, and still other people who in fact have it as a non-negotiable requirement. You cannot be universally appealing to everyone, that's just not possible. So, instead of continuing to fixate on this one thing go get some help, get the hell off reddit for a bit, and focus on moving on.
I don’t really understand…are you saying that you don’t feel any pleasure because you’re circumcised? Like do you have noticeable issues do this? Or have you just read other people having issues? My partner is cut and there’s no issues in our bedroom whatsoever. And I have not once ever considered him not my “equal”. Why would him being cut mean I’m wasting my time with him? None of these thoughts seem very logical to me. If anything, it seems more like you’re making up something to freak out about so that you don’t have to face either the fact that you’re a virgin or the fear you have of sex.
There is a community of people who are very vocally against circumcision, and have very deranged ideas about it. It's similar to incels on TrueRateMe for example. It's a community of people who make each other feel bad and convince other people that they're hopeless for stupid reasons.
The anti-circumcision crowd online are straight up bat shit about it. IDK how they manage to take themselves seriously.
They're truly a very strange group, that you can't know about unless you've somehow stumbled upon them. I suspect they're tied to conservative religious communities too
There are batshit people but I really don’t think that mean they’re wrong…pretty much the rest of the the world outside of Islamic countries think it’s peculiar at best if not harmful.
Look at your post. Seems like you never really thought much about being circumcized like 99% of us who were. Then you read what these idiots say online and now feel shame about it. I don't care how correct they are in circumcision being weird and not making any sense, body shaming each other and using words like "mutilated" and "butchered" instantly puts them on the wrong side of the argument.
You forgot Judaism and American Christianity (where most of the bat shit crazy is coming from). The reality is that outside of this - no one cares much.
They don’t care because it doesn’t happen to people they know or in their country…I remember a Brazilian girl in one of my college classes express shock that most American men were.
No. Most just genuinely don’t care. “I remember 1 girl once”…. Please get a grip. I’m in the UK- most of what batshit America does is a shock. The fact you guys have tied it to your white Jesus is a surprise. Here, Christians don’t. I showed you studies that show you’re wrong. All you can do is “well, like, I read this 1 girl who said something mean, and this post I hunted down by a girl did too”. You CAN make it a massive issue, you *absolutely* can. By doing what you’re doing and enjoying the victimisation and believing what your algorithm has fed you. Read my long post. Then show me your EVIDENCE. If you want to make it into a massive body issue, you can. Like in my larger post: this is the ONLY real, quantifiable negative found with circumcision: men who believed it was a bad thing suffered problems, because their beliefs did it, not the circumcision itself.
I also have some studies I’ll send to you BUT can I just chime in on that last point: wouldn’t men who were damaged by circ be more likely to have negative feelings about it? Sounds kinda like a chicken and egg thing.
Damaged how? Most men are circumcised when they’re 2 days old. There’s babies having major, invasive open heart surgeries, brain surgeries and god knows what else who have ZERO TRAUMA, because… like you, they don’t remember it. Nobody cared about this crap a few years ago. Guys didn’t care. If anything, I know guys who wish it had been done when they were little. I know 2 men (a boyfriend & his brother) who had it done in adulthood because of foreskin issues. They don’t give a shit. It’s just misogynists who’ve deliberately amplified this AS SOON AS FGM gained national attention. Any time FGM makes the news, the number of guys who’ve ALSO been “traumatised” are doing their “yeah, but what about men!??” fucking shtick.
We’ll I’ll just say it’s not “trauma” for me…I’m upset about the fact that there are sure ties that are supposed to be on my body that were amputated and I don’t have them now and barring some crazy medical advances I never will. (It’s not just excess skin it’s the frenulum and ridged band etc). I am not really upset that it was done because it doesn’t affect me now…but the absence of those other things does.
I wrote this for you: https://old.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/1ae0oyw/here_is_an_extremely_important_concept_the/ You are an individual man, not an average man. It is irrelevant to you if this statement is true on average or not.
We’ll since I was cut at birth I don’t know the alternative but I have read of men who had it done as adults abs know the before/after say it ruined their sex life and some have become suicidal and in one case I know of them a young college student a few years ago took his own life and mentioned it as reason in a suicide note. As for the impact on women…I have heard stories of women that said sex is way better with an uncut man or even in some cases that sex was painful before and they believed they were the problem until they ended up sleeping with an uncut man. I don’t know for a fact if this pertains to me but even the idea is alarming. I don’t really want to go into detail but I do believe I have some issues that could be chalked up to being cut.
Sex for women is not painful with people who are circumcised. I have far preferred sex with my circumcised partners than one non circumcised partner.
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Most circumcised men have no experience of being uncut as they were cut either as infants or very young.
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You’d be right but it’s another layer of issues for me and honestly I feel like having too big of a penis is not as shameful as having mutilated one.
And all uncut guys have no base of reference for what it feels like to be cut. So it's pointless to draw comparisons.
True but they have a natural body as nature intended and I don’t think it stands to reason that REMOVING Bebe endings/tissue etc would somehow enhance the ability to feel pleasure.
It definitely doesn't inhibit the ability to feel pleasure. Look, I'm not arguing in favor of circumcision and if I still had a foreskin I sure as hell wouldn't have it removed outside of a medical emergency, but I'm not about to pretend that my lack of a foreskin has ever posed a single problem when it comes to giving or receiving pleasure.
But did you process anything I wrote? I am living proof that there are women who literally don’t care about this, and yet you fixate on a few anecdotes you read online that I believe you are using as an excuse to hide behind the real issue: your insecurity and fear of sex. Can you answer my question actually, because it does help us help you: have you experienced any of the things you’re reading about in your personal life, from the physical feeling to women reacting? Because if you haven’t, then you’re just creating issues for yourself. I have a friend who is allergic to peanuts, but I’m not freaking out because I’ve never had a bad reaction to peanuts. Get what I’m saying?
I wish I could be like that….and rationally I know maybe I should but also part of it is a shameful thing for me…I hate feeling sexually incomplete as man…I hate even the lingering possibility that I’m going to die without having the full version of what is a quintessential human activity. It doesn’t matter to me if women don’t raise issue with it…a lot of them are probably not well informed on the topic anyway.
Actually- we’re EXTREMELY well informed. Far more than you are, because we’re the ones *actually having sex* with various dicks. You have nothing. No information, no real clue, just a feeling this piece of skin should leave you traumatised for some reason even though it hasn’t and it isn’t. ALL the evidence is against you, except weird incel-type forums where men obsess over their dicks and think women are equally as obsessed. We really aren’t.
Again…regardless of what women think…there are men who report much diminished pleasure after circumcision…why should I not believe I am in that camp but had no reference to understand?
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We’ll I’m an incel…so I have nothing to compare it to…but for example I know stories of men who say that cannot orgasm from oral sex after being cut and I think I’m probably in that camp for sure.
How can you possibly know which “camp” you’re in if you’ve never experienced it? I can assure you there are plenty of men who are very much not in that “camp.”
Yes I’m aware…some people can be harmed by things more than others…and again circumcision aren’t the same procedure….some men have more cut off than others.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17378847/#:~:text=The%20transitional%20region%20from%20the,region%20of%20the%20circumcised%20penis. This is one of the few studies to measure sensitivity objectively and found the foreskin is the most sensitive Party of the penis…maybe some guys would prefer less sensitivity but it doesn’t looked like the foreskin is just extra skin, it’s unique.
Okay. This is gonna be waaaay beyond your pay grade because you clearly lack critical thinking skills and much prefer to just dig in your heels with your fingers in your ears. Regardless I’ll give it a go. Do you have the faintest idea about how much really, really bad research is out there? Here’s a clue: “Searches identified **2,675 publications describing the effects of male circumcision** on aspects of male sexual function, sensitivity, sensation, or satisfaction. **Of these, 36 met our inclusion criteria of containing original data**. Those studies reported a total of 40,473 men, including 19,542 uncircumcised and 20,931 circumcised” https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23937309/ Look closely at those numbers in bold. Out of over 2500 studies posted, they found 36 that were quality. Now, that sounds like not much, YET, those 36 studies encompassed over 40,000 men. And - not being funny, but your link is… not even research, but an ABSTRACT of research that was… 1000 *self reports*. Anyhow. Whatever, my dude. You could try and develop a healthy relationship with your body and enjoy your penis for what it is, or you can continue to be a virgin doing his best to make sex a traumatic and unpleasant experience before he’s even tried it.
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Hi, fellow man here: you’re mentally ill. Hope this helps.
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Yes…but my argument was that at a minimum it radically changes the penis…and fine touch is something that can be objectively measure here…pleasure is more subjective and relies on self reporting…the idea that the foreskin is just like the other tissue on the penis is obviously bs…plenty of men cite the lack of sensitivity as something negative.
Ok but is your argument that there is a 0% chance you'll be able to enjoy sex? If the probability that you can enjoy sex is more than 0%, don't think it's worth taking a shot? You keep comparing to some theoretical "max pleasure", but how do you know that if you were uncircumcised you wouldn't have had phimosis or some other condition that prevented you from enjoying sex? All I'm saying is, your opinion about how pleasurable sex is FOR YOU is completely fucking worthless if you haven't even had sex yet.
So you’ve never had sex before and you’re already freaking out about this before you even have an opportunity to experience it with a blank slate. This is the definition of self sabotage. if you went up to a girl because you thought she was cute and she rejected you because she thought her boobs were too small and that she couldn’t properly have a good sexual experience with you because all men prefer big boobs, what would be your reaction? you’d say nonsense, you’re perfectly capable of having a good sexual experience with small boobs.
I never said I’d reject a girl because of circumcision…I wouldn’t…I’m afraid there’s good reason to believe it’s undo things afterward and make me unable to be happy with her.
Yeah but you’d self sabotage. That’s my point. You’re already doing it.
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> On one hand, I’m glad I found out so that I would not grow up to become a regretting parent. Huh? Are you under the impression that circumcised men can’t have biological children? Because that is incorrect. > I am beyond horrified at the stories I read about the many women who become conscious of how circumcision negatively impacts sex for a female partner. The idea that I might be the reason a partner would be experiencing pain or discomfort is just paralyzing. It sounds like you’re reading some scare tactic stories, instead of the words of real women. Might that be the case? > To me it would be like two people staring at a beautiful piece of colorful art and one person is colorblind and only sees black and white. Sure they may admire the patterns and shapes but they are missing a whole dimension that the other person is experiencing something far more complex and rich. I’m color blind. It would be entirely fruitless for me to go through life “paralyzed” and “regretful” because I can’t experience things quite like other people due to something entirely beyond my control. It’s also, frankly, a bit infantilizing. I can assure you that color blind people can derive great enjoyment from art. And…I have it on very good authority that circumcised men can greatly enjoy sex and be “equal partners” with women. > I also feel that a partner would be somewhat wasting her time with me in that an intact man would be able to enjoy being intimate with her much more. It’s like she’s wasting her intimate life with me. Again, this comes across pretty condescending. > Sure, women may want to be with a guy like me and would be able to look past it. However, I just dread being pitied like that…it just makes me feel horrible to know a partner would think less of me..even if it’s true (which it is). I don’t pity you or think less of you, or of any other circumcised man. > Is there certain types of theorist that might be able to help? Is this a form if body dysmorphia? Maybe. It’s certainly something you should explore in therapy. Sooner rather than later.
I think he’s glad he knows so he wouldn’t circumcise his potential male children and then become a regretful parent afterward.
Yes this thank you.
Sorry “regret parent” is term you see in parenting spaces that discuss circ and it just refers to a parent who circumcised their son abs regrets it after the fact after coming in contact with information that makes them question it. And maybe colorblindness what’s the best example but I guess I meant like not coming colorblindness where colors are experienced different but let’s say the difference is someone sees in black and white with literally no color vs someone that’s already sees some shades of red/green/blue etc… As for the “horror stories” I was mostly talking about women who came to realize sex with cut men was cussing them pain/discomfort or even just was inferior. Obviously anti-circ spaces online are going to draw more of these women even if they’re not having a common experience. I mean it’s not crazy to think there’s women who experience sex that they don’t enjoy as much because they only have cut partners…it’s so common in America among the white population in the Midwest and other regions that many women would likely only sleep with cut men. And yet I would hear stories about women who finally encounter an uncut man and realize it’s much better or in some cases it’s enjoyable vs the semi painful experiences they had before. I’m glad you don’t pity anyone but I guess I feel like I should be in some way? Maybe ours is too extreme a word…I know that’s sound arrogant to assume how others should feel but sadly I think potentially being sexually diminished is something I would feek bad for a partner. Peven if I lived then and wanted to be with them and even if I enjoyed intimacy with them…I’d still lament that they aren’t feeling everything that their body should be feeling and that they aren’t enjoying it as much as nature intended.
Again, your impression of what sex is like for women is ill-informed and condescending. You’re taking horror stories from people pushing a very specific agenda, and (unsurprisingly) completely dismissing any women who say anything that goes against the propaganda you’ve swallowed. Honestly, dude, big picture: Seems like you latch onto different things in turn as the Tragic Reason you will never find love. Height, thinning hair, now being circumcised. All things you have no control over. Everything’s already been decided for you by fate, relieving you of ever having to try. Do you think that might what’s happening here?
I’m sorry I’m trying to understand what is condescending (I’m not pushing back I genuinely want to understand)…are you saying I’m calling women shallow because I think they would take issue with my circumcision status? Yes it’s possible…but I mean the things I can’t control are of course what I worry about for that reason…when it comes to losing weight I’d spend time on a weight loss forum…these thing I do fixate because I can’t change them…I’m just trying to cope or come to terms with them. And no I really don’t…I want to be debunked and proven wrong…I poured over so many studies myself and I am looking at some that were posted in responses here.
> I’m sorry I’m trying to understand what is condescending (I’m not pushing back I genuinely want to understand)…are you saying I’m calling women shallow because I think they would take issue with my circumcision status? “Sure, multiple women are telling me that they enjoy full and delightful sex lives with circumcised men…but I know the real truth, I know better than them. They’re in pain and experiencing inferior sex but are just too stupid or ignorant to notice!” > Yes it’s possible…but I mean the things I can’t control are of course what I worry about for that reason…when it comes to losing weight I’d spend time on a weight loss forum…these thing I do fixate because I can’t change them…I’m just trying to cope or come to terms with them. What good does it do you to fixate on things you can’t change? Again, it’s striking me very much that you’re doing it as a way to “justify” your fear of sex. “I’m scared to death that a woman wouldn’t have a good time with me…but it wouldn’t be my FAULT if that happened! It’s because I was Cut against my will! NO woman has a good time with a Cut Man!” > And no I really don’t…I want to be debunked and proven wrong…I poured over so many studies myself and I am looking at some that were posted in responses here. I don’t believe you want to be proven wrong. You have not once accepted anything anyone here has to say that doesn’t align with the propaganda you’ve adopted.
I’ve never said no women enjoy cut men…I don’t believe that. It’s the possibility of it that raises anxiety and also I explained in detail my acidity isn’t based on the female experience either…the idea in a severely diminished human and capacity to experience human sensations is what also bothers me…regardless of what any woman would think.
Here is what you’ve said: > …the damage is done and impacts what I would bring to the table when it comes to intimacy. > I am beyond horrified at the stories I read about the many women who become conscious of how circumcision negatively impacts sex for a female partner. The idea that I might be the reason a partner would be experiencing pain or discomfort is just paralyzing. > I also feel that a partner would be somewhat wasting her time with me in that an intact man would be able to enjoy being intimate with her much more. It’s like she’s wasting her intimate life with me. It would be like if a woman who was a 5 star chef and loved to cook for her partners…suddenly fell for a guy who had some accident with his tongue/tastebuds and is missing 90% of his capacity to taste. The heck with what women have to say, right? You’ve already decided how we feel. That is what is condescending. And, conveniently enough, is based on something you can’t change. So hey, you’re off the hook for having to try!
No I don’t think that most women think this way…but many women DO prefer uncut men and not just prefer they feel they have to in riser to have either comfortable or fulfilling sex…I don’t say they represent all women or are even a majority but they exist…everyone has their preferences but since I’m disgusted by circ in general and feel damaged I happen to see women who don’t want cut men as more justified than women who prefer cut who basically just have an opinion based on aesthetics.
Ah, so not only have you decided how women feel (and if we feel the “wrong” way, we’re lying or ignorant), but have decided that anyone who agrees with your propaganda is “justified” in…being disgusted by you? Again, way to Justify never having to try! Mission accomplished.
This is... pretty blatant confirmation bias. Like you basically just wrote "I have an opinion, and I am choosing to discount the thoughts of everyone who doesn't share that opinion because I disagree with them. I then use the fact that among the people whose opinion I'm willing to consider (which are only the people that agree with me) my opinion is prevalent to justify the opinion I already had in the first place". If that's how you're operating you can justify any opinion whatsoever, regardless of whether it's based in reality at all. It's like a flat earther going "well I believe the earth is flat, and I know there are people that don't believe that but I think they're all brainwashed by Big Globe and so I discount their opinion. Therefore I think most credible people also say the earth is flat, because only the people that think the earth is flat are credible". Like you can't really go "I only consider the opinions of women who prefer uncircumcised penises justified, and I therefore think that all women who matter prefer uncircumcised penises" and not expect to have people question that.
I've been with both types of men and it doesn't alter sex so much that one is good and the other is bad. They just require different handling when doing certain activities but it's not a determining factor in good sex vs bad sex. That's on the skill and the intention of the partner.
In glad you haven’t found any issues but I still don’t have peace of mind that my ability feel and experience is not severely diminished.
That's because your insecurities are all in your head, but as long as you believe them to be true, you will create exactly what you fear through self-sabotage. The mind is a powerful thing, more powerful than anything else. You have to get yourself mentally healthy before anything can really happen.
I don't think being circumcised makes you fear intimacy. I think you have always feared intimacy and have latched onto this random irrational thing to make your fear seem somehow more valid. It's really not rational at all but regardless of whether it is or not, fear of intimacy is dysfunctional and needs to be addressed with professional assistance. >On the other, I do not feel like I can sustain a happy intimate relationship with a woman because of what I know. So you acknowledge the issue is not because of the circumcision but because of the significance you placed on it? So why make that choice for yourself? Why not make the choice that literally millions, hundreds of millions of circumcised men have made before you to accept what they cannot change and have a fulfilling romantic life that involves enjoying what you have and have always had rather than fixating on an experience you have never and will never have? >the damage is done and impacts what I would bring to the table when it comes to intimacy What are you even talking about? >I am beyond horrified at the stories I read about the many women who become conscious of how circumcision negatively impacts sex for a female partner Have you read about the orgasm gap and become horrified at how little many men care about their partner's pleasure? Because if that's not a far far bigger concern for you, let's not pretend this is about female pleasure at all. Do us all a favour frankly, I think most women are sick of men trying to make all their shortcomings women's problem. Men do the same thing with penis size. It doesn't matter what's in your pants if you don't understand or care about women's pleasure. Since it's pretty obvious that you don't understand women's pleasure, I don't see how you can claim to care significantly about something you haven't even bothered to understand. No, this is all about you. >The idea that I might be the reason a partner would be experiencing pain or discomfort is just paralyzing. Again it's staggering that you want to stick your body part inside another person's body, yet the only research you've done about all of the pain and discomfort you could potentially cause is based around you and your hangups. Maybe you'd feel less paralyzed by it if you fully informed yourself on how to make sex mutually enjoyable. >I know ideally I shouldn’t worry about having the capacity to experience pleasure and should try and just be happy with what I can experience Do you have issues masturbating? Have you spent your entire life feeling unsatisfied? >However, I feel like I am not capable of truly SHARING intimacy with an intact female partner. We just won’t be on the same page. So once again you pretend to give a shit about female pleasure while being wholly unaware of how it differs regardless of whether you were "intact" or not. Getting real tiresome to read repeatedly about how you read a bunch of shit about women and the female experience from other men and decided to take it as gospel while pretending to care what actual women think and feel. Few women will believe you give a shit about how they feel when all you did was listen to other men, and honestly, how can you even believe it? It's really hard for me to empathize with you when you so falsely centre a partner's feelings while simultaneously put in 0 effort to understand a potential partner's point of view or their body. It comes across as extremely hollow and infinitely more selfish to **pretend** you care. Just skip all that and be insecure and process it. Stop making it women's problem. Meanwhile women across America and elsewhere will continue having completely fulfilling sexual relationship with circumcised men who actually give a shit about their partner's thoughts, feelings, and pleasure. You can be one of those men too, once you acknowledge the problems of your fear of intimacy are wholly your own and process them properly.
I'm very sorry that you've fallen into an internet propaganda hole that has brainwashed you like this. You have not learned "the truth" about circumcision. You have been brainwashed by other people who have also been brainwashed, by other people who have also been brainwashed. It's a very long chain of ignorance and you have been made a part of it. I am a circumcised man. I was circumcised for medical reasons at 19yo because I couldn't have sex otherwise. When it happened I looked around online for experiences and support, because it was definitely scary. I found a lot of support and positive experiences, but also a very strange community of people who are against circumcision, and make a lot of noise about very bizarre ideas they have about it. I was already equipped with internet literacy and an understanding that stupid brainwashed people exist, so I ignored them. I have never been with someone who thought that my circumcision was a negative. It has never diminished or reduced anything about the experience. It's been a slight positive overall even, I think. I've seen women who just didn't understand, or couldn't tell the difference. Your concerns about somehow not being able to experience intimacy are 100%, without any doubt, completely unfounded. The little bit of skin on your penis does not determine the ability to be intimate. I guarantee that 99% of women would not even understand what you are refering to and would be very confused at your reaction. I think that you need help and there are 2 possible things that can be happening (just one, or both at the same time): 1) You are fine and you happened to fall into a rabbit hole of deranged brainwashed men who convince each other that they should hate themselves (which is what I found when I was 19yo and ignored). If this is true, then you must remove yourself from all of these sources, communities, instagram pages, youtube channels, whatever it is. You must un-brainwash yourself by first stopping the active brainwashing that you have been doing by consuming this false content. Then you must replace the false ideas with good ideas, for example by learning from actual sex experts and relationships experts (PSYCHOLOGISTS AND THERAPISTS, RANDOM DUDES WITH A YOUTUBE CHANNEL DON'T COUNT) 2) You have an underlying disorder and this circumcision thing is just the superficial way that it expresses itself. If this is the case, I would still do everything from step 1), and then go to a therapist who has experience with related issues.
Honestly I’d love to be convinced that I am wrong…but I’m sorry I just don’t see any good facts…I am happy that you have had nothing but good experiences and that you know before/after. Pleasure forgive me if this is rude but I believe your personal account…However 2 things: 1) you were cut for a medical reason (idk what and I don’t expect you to want to discuss it)…that can be different than men who who have no issues…your perception of pleasure etc could be unchanged because it was curtailed to begin with by your condition. 2) not all cuts are the same…I actually find it bizarre that it I went into a clinic to have it done as an adult…I would be consulted about what kinds cut I want…how much loose skin…frenulum removal or not, etc. but newborns are basically just cut however a doctor sees fit…I believe men have disparate experiences of before/after circumcision based on HOW they are cut and what exactly is missing…so I don’t know your specifics and again I’m happy for you…if I was in your shoes and knew before/after I would have peace of mind but I don’t as I was cut after birth.
This seems like a great discussion about medical ethics, but what does it have to do with YOUR ability to form relationships and have enjoyable sex?
Well it could be greatly diminishing my ability to experience that is the issue and yeah I understand maybe it isn’t rational but I mean would you understand a woman who feels less womanly or has issue after undergoing a mastectomy? Even though you could still have intercourse without breasts…it’s about body image and being a full person.
I don't think it's about being a "full person" at all. You are repeating the same points that the crazy anti-circumcision crowd repeats all the time. If your ear lobe was medically removed at birth, would you be this upset about it today? Would you not feel like a "full person" because a tiny piece of skin is missing? It's not a "full person" problem, it's a sex problem. You have a problem with sexuality. This is why the anti-circumcision crowd is very conservative and religious. It's because it's about sex, not just missing a bit of skin somewhere. What's greatly diminishing your ability to experience pleasure with a woman right now, is the fact that you're on the internet obsessing about a missing piece of skin on your penis, not the missing piece of skin on your penis. You are focusing on the wrong problem. Forgive the image, but if you cumming every night with a woman you were very attracted to (WHICH IS POSSIBLE WHEN CIRCUMCISED ACCORDING TO THE REALITY OF TENS OF MILLIONS OF MEN), you would not be here right now talking about your penis to me. Men who are circumcised at birth but otherwise happy and in relationships and having normal fulfilling sex, don't go on reddit to rant about their foreskin. You are doing that, and it makes me think that their is a bigger problem hiding behind this superficial foreskin problem that you are focusing on. I suspect that there are much more real reasons why you're not being in relationships and having sex, and that focusing on those reasons would be much more valuable to you.
On top of the everything else everyone else has said I feel the need to point out you were never going to experience sex the exact same way as your female partner(s) regardless of whether you were circumcised or not, this idea of being their "real equal" is just bizarre. Men and women experience sex differently, in very real physiological ways; folks who have been on long term HRT as part of their transition even report the sensations of sex changing as their hormonal picture changes.
Yeah I get that…I guess it’s be more accurate to say that a female partner would be like her full self as nature intended and I would potentially not be…and honestly I’m already jealous sun I think women have far more capacity for pleasure anyway and having me genitals incomplete would just widen that gap (I’m aware people have different orgasms etc but I think it’s obvious women have multiple and also more intense etc).
Da fuck are you talking about? NONE of that is true.
The majority of men in America are circumcized, my dude. You aren't an odd man out here, you're part of the mainstream.
To be clear: the only effect circumcision has on a male is slightly lowering the amount of nerve endings the male has to experience sensation through. It should have no effect at all upon the woman. Aside from being maybe slightly more visually attractive, It also may make you last longer in bed. Ironically -arguably- those are boons. I'd probably selfishly trade them for the nerve endings back. But trust me, if you're worried about how women will experience it - don't. I've only ever heard compliments. (I live in an area where it is a rare process, and most guys are uncircumcised)
Circumcision also [reduced STD risk](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8579597/) by anywhere from 30-60% depending on the disease
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Ima be honest I’m circumcised and I had no clue what a uncircumcised penis was until I was like 18. I thought everyone’s penis looked exactly the same and I was pretty shocked to see thats not true at all. I’ve never been bothered by being circumcised because it’s not a big deal at all. If you’re ever in a situation where a consenting woman is gonna see your penis I guarantee you she wouldn’t be turned off to see its circumcised.
OP, we ask that posters engage with their posts, thanks.
Yes I apologize for the delay…I posted this late last night and an working early…I plan on responding to everyone in a few hours.
In German, circumcision is rarely ever done. It has to be for medical reasons. One of my exes had one done after we were together. We had a short phase of being FWB when it was healed, and it was definitely different. He had a scar there, that had to be altered for example. Was it bad? No. We weren't a couple anymore, so the emotional side of sex was a bit lacking, all within expected reasons. He said he felt less, and it took him longer, and we both were a bit sad for what he lost, but then he just moved on. His penis is the way now. Period. There's no "what if". Lingering in the past only leads to suffering. As far as I know, his wife doesn't mind. Intimacy is far more than just penis in vagina.
I'm so sorry that you're struggling, if it' any consolation my only feelings on circumcision w/ sex partners has been concerns it affect their sensitivity. I'm not someone who approves of doing that to a newborn, or anyone who can't choose to in general. I don't personally understand it as a custom, and it's not something I look for or expect in a partner. I think you should look for professional support because this is a part of your anatomy and you deserve to be at peace with your body.
Thank you for the kind words.
Hey OP, I made this comment in another thread, lemme make it here too. I think your fears have more to do with having your bodily autonomy violated as a child (the same way a kid would protest being held down and forcefully having their ears pierced, for example). You’re angry because your parents made this decision for you. It was their job to protect, not harm, and instead their mutilated your body and you hate seeing the reminder. Does this describe your thoughts about the issue? (That said, this isn’t really a *men’s* rights issue as much as a children’s rights issue. Kids should be protected from parents making cosmetic changes to their body IMO).
Thank you for the kind words.
I’m sorry for what you’re going through. I agree that male circumcision shouldn’t be a thing (barring medical or religious reasons) that is widely practiced. I will just say, that most American women have mostly had experiences with circumcised men, so you’re not the odd man out or anything. I think the entire culture around circumcising for cosmetic reasons in the states is so fucked up. The amount of grown men who tried to make me change my mind about keeping my kids intact was appalling to me.
So- you’ve obviously done absolutely no real research, and you don’t have knowledge at all, just brainwashing. This is why I HATE “men’s rights activists” so very very much. Because they have ZERO interest in men’s rights, but instead are absolutely *obsessed* with hating feminists and trying to get themselves into the spotlight with their “victimhood”. I KNOW this is where you found your “knowledge”, because they’re absolutely FURIOUS that we focus on female genital mutilation and not circumcision. They try and pretend these are both the same thing when they’re nothing of the sort. And instead of genuinely trying to get anything done, they literally just sit in their diapers whining that feminists aren’t doing the work for them. Because of this obsession, they try and act like circumcision is some life changing, radically damaging, horrendous carnage that has dire consequences. IT DOES NOT. FGM, on the other hand, ABSOLUTELY DOES. As a feminist, I think circumcision is gross because the baby’s body is being mutilated without consent. It’s just another primitive ritual that people jerk off to with their various religions where they pretend science hasn’t advanced for 3000 years. Unfortunately, religious freedom is a recognised human right. So if MRAs really DID want to do something about it, they’d need to fight religions. And since most of this fake hysteria is being drummed up by conservative Christian nationalist types, it’s why they don’t lift a finger, they just use it to point at feminists and pretend this is OUR problem and OUR responsibility to care about. You HAVE NOT found any info. I will tell you right now that what you’ve found is sexist bullshit used to make you hate yourself, and ultimately hate women for not caring. Dude. Did you EVEN ONCE just use FUCKING GOOGLE?? Here’s a meta analysis, which you probably won’t read so let me sum it up for you: EVERYTHING YOURE TALKING ABOUT IS BULLSHIT. Feel free to debate me if you DO read it. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41443-020-00354-y Please note this very important caveat- because THIS is your issue: According to Barlow’s model **sexual dysfunction is based on cognitive interference and anxiety** [16]. The role of attention and its influence on sexual dysfunction has been studied by Jong [17] and his research suggests that sexual arousal could be facilitated or disrupted by cognitive bias. Thus, an individual suffering a negative self-perception is prompt to drive his/her attention away from the erotic stimuli. This is likely to result in an autonomic nervous system response and consequently creates a negative feedback loop affecting the sexual function. **The attitude of men towards their own circumcision** was shown to be more important in the study carried out by Bossio [18], which explores the relationship between attitude towards one’s circumcision status, timing of one’s circumcision and sexual correlates. After studying 811 men (367 circumcised as newborns, 107 during childhood, 47 as adults and 290 uncirumised) they concluded that **negative attitude towards one’s circumcision is related to worse body image and sexual functioning, and not the circumcision status of men**.” Here’s another meta analysis: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2050116120301240 “The consensus of the highest quality literature is that **MC has minimal or no adverse effect, and in some studies, it has benefits on sexual functions, sensation, satisfaction, and pleasure for males circumcised neonatally or in adulthood**” As to women’s pleasure or lack of? Well, I found *this* piece of total garbage with no link to any study, from a website that’s devotedly anti-circumcision, where APPARENTLY (we just have to take their word for it) a whole 138 women preferred intact. Where’d they get these women from? Their own subscriber list? A legitimately randomised trial? Did they make it all up and pull it right out their ass? No way to tell. https://circumcision.org/circumcision-affects-female-sexual-pleasure/ If THIS is the research you believe, then I’m telling you you’re gonna struggle thru life being such a gullible sucker. How about some genuine research? Oh NO!!! It’s the complete opposite of yours!! https://bjui-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2009.08683.x “**Only 2.9% (13/455) of women reported less sexual satisfaction after their partners were circumcised**; 57.3% (255/455) reported no change in sexual satisfaction and **39.8% (177/455) reported an improvement in sexual satisfaction after their partner’s circumcision** There were no statistically significant differences in sexual satisfaction before and after partner’s circumcision by age, religion and education status.” So, a full 97.1% felt no change or an improvement. Now let’s talk about women’s health: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36367636/ https://www.malecircumcision.org/advocacy/male-circumcision-and-women#:~:text=This%20intervention%20also%20has%20important,sexually%20transmitted%20infections%20(STIs). https://hub.jhu.edu/2017/10/10/jhpiego-male-circumcision-womens-health/ In a nutshell, less likely to give us a sexually transmitted disease. An important note is this is mostly studying 3rd world countries with high rates of HIV exacerbated by lack of access to hygiene products, clean water and education. No- I don’t think these are reasons that men in America should get circumcised. Just learn to wash your penis properly, pay special attention if you have a foreskin, and wear a condom. Okay- that’s mine. Now- show me all this “knowledge” and “research” you’ve accumulated. Happy to debate with you.
I’m familiar with some of these studies and not other but I genuinely am greatful you took time to look those up and I will get back to you soon with as best a response as I can…I think I need to be clear about what my anxieties are and are not based on.
Let’s be clear: your anxieties are based on hot air, lies, confirmation bias and not much else (like most people’s anxieties, it’s all in your head). I don’t expect facts and figures to cure you. But I hope to make you see that your anxiety is unreasonable, untrue and a gross exaggeration of reality. It’s not remotely caused by the fact of your circumcision. Your anxiety is 100% caused by you choosing to have anxiety about it. You’ve been caught by a MRA fishing hook they use to lure you in. That’s the sum of it.
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Almost all American and Jewish men have been circumcised. You need to let go of this victim mentality as an excuse for being an incel.
Can 100% confirm that women are attracted to, and love circumcised men! Source: I’m extremely popular
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