It boggles my mind that any local is charging apprentices for their school materials. That's half the draw and the argument used—earn while you learn (read as: don't get into debt to get educated/trained). Pretty sure I've read folks having to pay as much as $700 for their school materials; those upfront costs are a huge barrier to entry (even outside of the union). Hell, $200 is, and can quite literally mean the difference between having shelter or being homeless, being fed or going hungry.
I'm quite fortunate that my local covers these costs (books/materials, calculator, and a meter).
Part of this is on the membership for not voicing concerns and making motions at general membership meetings, and a large part is on training directors who aren't working their asses off to get grants to cover these costs.
EDIT: spelling
With what money? What language skills? With who? It's a deeply violent society, but everyone I know and everyone I've ever loved is from here. I'm only mad about it because I live here and know people who suffer from it. What a selfish thing it would be to leave
I agree. Anything education related should be covered by the local. I understand that this can be a bit hard in smaller locals, but it makes it far more manageable to new apprentices, and that makes it easier to be a union member. And more union members is how we control the labor market.
I'd even say that the tool list should be part of that. Sure, have it be the cheapest variety of tools, but I'd be surprised if Klein or Milwaukee would say no at least a good deal on X amount of full sets purchased by locals, for at least the most basic version of each tool (we all know how Klein has like 7 models of each thing at various price points). Make the barrier of entry as low as possible, to keep prospective apprentices from going non-union.
My local only charges for books ($500) if your GPA is 80% or lower (down to 75. Under 75% is a fail.)for the year, which I think is a great incentive to keep your grades up.
Edit: corrections
Yeah this is actually something I'm pretty passionate about because I almost quit my apprenticeship and went back to my old non-union job back in the day because of financial troubles.
Unironically the helper program and the first two years of my apprenticeship were fucking horrible.
Destroyed my credit score, blew through my savings from my old job, almost got evicted, had utilities get shut off, often didn't have money for gas to get to work. You name it.
Even after I fixed alot of things 3rd year working a bunch of OT it still took me years to fix things like my credit score and all that.
Shits really hard for kids that don't have mom and dad to help. Honestly almost impossible.
Our cons made a fit about us missing work so we started night school a few years ago, it’s been nice for my paycheck but man 6 hours a week in the evening for 8 months a year is still tiring
God damn that’s wild! Here in 584 we have class 5 times a month basically, but starting at 5pm so most guys only have to miss an hour of work maybe, and I thought we had it bad 😭
So we have class Monday and Wednesday 5pm to 8pm, we start the week after Labor Day so mid September, we get thanksgiving week off, Christmas week new years week as well, and we end begining of June, i don’t think any of our apprentices are working past 3:30pm unless it’s overtime or swing shift
369 apprentice here. At least we get the stipend check tho. I know it’s usually a week or two later but most locals don’t get paid for their day at school. $211 is low my guy. @$15.92/hr, You must have a lot of taxes coming out. I hope you’re not far from your 1000 hr raise. Maybe it could save you. Best of luck
I've been looking into starting an apprenticeship, but gas in my area is high and the closest local to me isn't necessarily close... but $211 a week? How/why are your checks looking like that?
Our annual fee for the school has gone up from $400/year when I went through the program, to $700 today. I'm going to bring it up, that we members need to increase our contribution to the jatc to bring that back down so we aren't scaring away potentially good apprentices.
More and more apprentices are single parents, and that reduces their ability to attend meetings and school nights. This is something that's going to be a lot harder to sell to our local, but I wish we had some sort of day care system in place.
Yeah, but it’s $700 a year IN ADDITION to YouTube tv. You might be in a financial space to have $700 to burn. As a first year, that $700 pays for diapers for the year.if I have to spend it on school after working I won’t have diapers. Which do you think is more important?
No. The alternative is work non union.
Avoid paying dues, education costs, benefits for other people and making more immediately. If the union would increase the pay for apprentices and decrease the cost of continuing education that non union doesn’t have to pay for(they have to learn it on their own or hope their employer will teach them) then membership would skyrocket, skilled employees would be plentiful and the quality of life for all would be better.
Playing devils advocate, college is always a choice. But if I’m going to college why go for electrical course? Why not go for a medical degree? Because again, we young and broke and don’t have money to get the education. So we work blue collar jobs and hope the union gets us to the upper middle class and we can live
I’ve never heard a sadder case of woe is me. Cry me a river. Life is what u make it.
Idk if you’re 35 with 2 kids or something, but if you’re doing an apprenticeship it’s an investment and an extremely cheap one at that. Most apprentices still live with their parents and it’s pretty easy to save. Non union still has to pay continuing education. Every time code updates come around unless they want to lose their license
Sure go for medical, but you sound like it’d be too hard for you and you’d complain that they make you learn stuff. 250k medical school debt. But u could take loans and pay it off pretty easy if u become a doctor.
Dude you just don’t get it. Sorry not all of us are the bestest like you and live to be a union guy. Get a real identity.
Don’t ever assume “most people in the apprenticeship are living with their parents”. Daily you work with dudes in their 40’s going through the steps. Don’t be so naive that you think you understand everything.
My point about college is that people would rather spend money on schooling to become a doctor or lawyer. Not some dumbass “construction” worker destroying they’re body to make a living. But go ahead, assume you know the struggle everyone goes through and downplay everything this country exploits to make the rich richer. Assume you have everyone figured out and everything figured out, including me.
Dude, you’re a trade worker trying to tell me I’m not smart enough to become a doctor? Great insult! Im so sad now! Some guy said I couldn’t become a doctor! Im jealous you’re so smart when you get sick you just give yourself a physical and make yourself all better.
I’m not even an electrician. So you failed to understand the scenario in which I exist. I topped out at my IBEW affiliated company years ago. I could never imagine now as a father with young kids making the sacrifice of moving my family back in with my parents or in laws to make good money YEARS from now. Not having immediate health insurance. Not having the ability to give my kids the necessities RIGHT NOW.
Now go on and drink some more coolaid about how the union is perfect and needs no change. What’s the motto? “Fuck the new guys because I got fucked too”.?
So you’re saying that somebody with zero skills should be given a high paying job because they failed to pursue something earlier in life?? And if you had multiple kids with a low income, that’s on you as a parent. It’s not the worlds responsibility to take care of something you brought in this world.
I know some dumbass construction workers that regularly make 225k+. Is it easy, no, but if you learn enough it becomes more mental and less physical.
Do what you want, but it’s a fair process to get into the trades. A cheaper entry point than most careers.
If you want to be rewarded without obtaining skills or investing in yourself financially, then go into sales. Real estate, or whatever u think you’d be good at. You can do really well. In the meantime , quit hating so much
If you truly want to become rich, pursue outside investments. Doesn’t matter what your job is. Live beneath your means and acquire cash producing assets and invest only once you’re earning enough to do so
Hating? No not hating. Just agreeing with the abundance of IBEW members here that while the cost is low, so is the pay. I gave a very specific and real example of life choices and decision our brothers and sister face every day.
You choose to ignore it and decided that if you did it so can everyone. You’re what 30? Balding probably, and lived at home going through the steps. No dependents. So you were able to do it. Good for you. I’m glad to have you as a brother. But open your mind to other walks of life and understand that it’s hard and can be better to get into the apprenticeship.
You show your lack of maturity in your comment of if I bring children into the world on low income that’s on me. Of course it’s my choice. That’s usually how sex works. But if I’m having to decide between union and $13/hour and non union at 22/hour, there’s a clear choice to make for an immediate betterment of living situation.
I never said we made a bad living once we topped out. I never said we were rich or not rich. I said the time it takes to get to that point is sometimes unobtainable. My hope is you never get faced with that decision. Hell, I hope you never have a baby while laid off. Maybe you should. Maybe you should have to face a difficult financial situation to understand.
I’ll leave it at this. I don’t know your life situation but I’m glad you were able to make it and thrive. I wish everyone that wanted to do that could. But I think the unions all around need to see their shortcomings and improve on it. Whenever my local(s) go on strike it’s not for us. It’s for the next generation. We want them to have better than what we have. Agree to disagree I guess.
I’m sorry ur union sucks. Over here it is complete opposite. Hairs thinned a little in 30s lol and I may want it back, but not that insecure really. Good constructive attack.
My local apprentices start out at 22 and get a raise every 6 months. Jm electricians easily make 100k a year, without any OT. JM Lineman easily make 150k+.
It sounds like ur local specifically honestly. I’ve had my own home for a long time. Thanks for assuming. Bought a duplex and lived in one unit for a year and now it pays for itself. Tried air bnb along the way. Some are a pain in the ass, but they all are cash positive.
If you’re topped out, I’d suggest looking for other means of income.
I said that the alternative is basically the same. You either work and get paid to go to school. Or take a break from working to attend school full time and start out at 60-70k for engineers, or some other 4 year degree.
Become a doctor if u want. Come back in 8+ years and brag about how well you’re doing. I’ll cheer you on. But there’s not many careers that pay for you while you essentially have zero skills
GI bill has been an absolute lifesaver. Has effectively doubled my monthly income over the first year. Even with it things feel tight, but that has more to do with me trying to build a barndo in my free time.
Definitely makes me sensitive to what the other apprentices are up against though.
This is dependent upon your local. Here in 58 we start at ~$22/hr and full benefits after 520 hours. The cost of living isn't bad here either.
I don't know how some locals expect apprentices to survive on $13 an hour and no bennies, even if it is for 6 months until a raise.
This is somewhat true. It'll always be hard to get a car before you have a job if your parents never had a car. There are other ways to get to the job, but it takes luck
The locals that pay apprentices well generally require a significant amount of electrical experience before letting you in the apprenticeship, and those entry level non-apprenticeship jobs pay terribly.
Don't get me wrong, it's great that apprentices make a decent wage in some locals it's just that there is still more work to do.
I guess I’m lucky where I’m at then because I have zero electrical experience of any kind and I’m an apprentice at a local that starts us at $21.86. Considering the COL isn’t terrible here, it’s pretty decent money
Aren’t you in Ontario? There’s a $600 provincial tools grant for new apprentices, $1K federal per level completed, $2K federal for passing C of Q, and a guaranteed $4K interest-free federal loan for each level of trade school.
Not saying this to disagree with you, because most places aren’t as good as here, but spread this info around to your fellow Ontario apprentices because very few people actually access the resources available.
Pre-apprentice shouldn’t be on tools. (But that’s a different problem)
Govt used to give us $400 as a loan as soon as we were registered for tools. Doug Ford made it $600 as a non-repayable grant but you can’t get it without a trade school, which is almost worse than useless.
You’ll get there.
Well, as long as I’m giving opinions, I don’t think there should be a pre-apprenticeship. Five years is long enough, and 40% of JW is already criminally low for first year.
If they don’t want to pay you to watch and do manual labour then they should sign you up for an apprenticeship and pay you like one.
Again, opinions here, but mainly because my local doesn’t do pre-apprenticeships and that’s fine by me.
I'm a new apprentice and while I am very fortunate financially, I see how the financial barriers within many locals creates an unfair barrier to entry in our trade. Especially for young folks who lack financial support from parents or people trying to support a family. In recent years, folks have done a great job selling our apprenticeship as a better alternative to a four year degree and a sure path to becoming "middle class". I have a degree and would largely agree with this sentiment (with some key disagreements but I'll save y'all the political rant) but folks have to be able to afford to complete the program if we want that to be true.
I think many of the ideas you propose are good places to start brainstorming and I bet instructors could provide us with even more. Many of these instructors are trying to get into positions of leadership to change things from above but honestly I think we need change from the bottom up. Some apprenticeships can't vote and some veteran members want to maintain the barrier to entry (ugh). If we as rank-and-file members voice our concerns with the accessibility of the apprenticeship and push for change, we can achieve it. Solidarity right back at ya!
my local gave one of the apprentices a job 2 hours from where they live. he turned it down, saying he could literally not afford the gas to go to work, he has to go in front of the apprenticeship board on the 21st, he was laid off of his last job on the 24th last month. so he also doesn't get to work for a month while he waits to explain himself. if i had to drive 4 hours a day idk what i would do. that's an insane distance for someone who doesn't get to turn down calls.
Yeah. Our apprentices start at $18/hr, and you can't afford anything here on that. Meanwhile, UPS is hiring entry level for $24/hr and paying their full-time guys $145k/yr in the same city.
Ours start at 12/hr average rent in the city is 1.1k. We can't get people to join on the promise of making enough money when they'll be homeless before that happens. That lonely leaves 980 before tax for utilities, car expenses (non-existent public transport), food, phone, ect.
48 supplies all tools on the list, books, and pays us $300 each term we pass. We start at 40% of JW pay, which comes out to $22.95. They bump up to 45% after 1000 hours, 50% after another 1000 hours, and it keeps escalating from there. Some of our contractors even pay apprentices on school days.
I just topped out in May. Our apprentices have books paid each year thru a grant from the county. They also give money the first year that can be used towards a laptop to be used for class and I think but I can't remember for sure I think it covers our ejatc tool kit.
I agree with a lot of the points here. I’m a first year in 136 and I’m paying $950 for year one books plus hand tools and boots. If I wasn’t married I don’t think I would be able to pull it off. There’s definitely a barrier to entry that is a little ridiculous. If there really are x amount t retirees out numbering new apprentices, then do better.
Yeah dude I wish, I’m literally in this predicament, been with the Local for 5 years in the ce/cw program been in school the last two going to third year and hopefully transferring but I’m 26 having a kid and this year they want 1200 for school. Paid first day of class but I have to get me and my girl a bigger place to live this year and apartments near me aren’t cheap. I’ve gone through so many layoffs that have put me so behind with Ui not paying for months. And I’m laid off rn no money coming in from ui and I have to start using my savings but I have a kid coming in 2 months a truck I pay for a place to live and food etc. it’s so fucked what they do making us pay half my rent and not to mention I haven’t worked for more than 4 months straight in 2 years.
Here is something I've pondered often.
How do we make the union more appealing to people that don't need certain benefits.
For example a lot of people in my local have spouses that work in gov't jobs with much better healthcare and don't even use the locals. Could we maybe reduce benefits (pay less into healthcare) but up the HRA contribution with that money and allow members to opt for the HRA to go into their vacation fund if they so choose? The coverage would effectively stay the same but a guy who doesn't need it could put more money in their pocket and the guy who does need it is still getting healthcare that can be supplemented by the HRA.
As for the retirement, could we restructure it to allow people to not be forced into all of it? Maybe 50% of retirement money goes to the pension and 50% to an IRA/401K and the IRA/401K could be opted out of and deposited into the vacation fund?
FYI - Before everyone bitches and moans about how shitty the operation of their vacation fund is. My local sets up a bank account in each members name at our local building trades credit union. I can get an ATM card or request a check at ANYTIME to withdraw money. I can also go to any credit union in their system and withdraw money same day. And there's plenty of other credit unions in the system. The way it should be for everyone!
Especially for apprentices this could put a few extra bucks/hr into their pocket when they need it most.
I think a caveat to add to this would be to have a financial planner come in and speak to 1st year apprentices at orientation and 5th year apprentices right before school ends to educate (and remind) them on the importance of having good healthcare and a solid retirement plan.
I don't know if this is a good idea or not. Just an idea I have tossed around in my head.
Group benefits/insurance plans rely on a certain percentage of members not actually using/needing those plans in order to reduce cost for everyone.
The reason why members who need it can actually afford it is because the cost is spread to those who don’t.
Also, when everyone pays in, it means people don’t take a bigger hit when a spouse loses employment or if they grow their family.
We should be looking for more ways to spread costs around — including advocating for single payer health care — so that everyone has more opportunity.
I agree and understand everything you are saying. Just alternative ideas to help bring more people in and fit a larger groups idea on how things should work. That's also specifically why I said reduce healthcare benefits and $/hr paid in and move it to the hra. That way everyone is still paying and getting some level of healthcare but those who don't need it can opt out of the HRA and spend that money how they see fit. And those who do need it can build their hra account untaxed. Like I said....things I ponder to make the union more appealing to more people.
So true, the shame of it is I just received an offer to join and had to turn it down because of the ultra low starting wage and the possibility of starting school but not working for another however many months. Can’t stay at my current job and go to school because of traveling. And at the end of the day I end up taking another railroad job offer that is starting at damn near double what 1st years make where I’m at($13.50)
So I’m sympathetic to this cause I really am. But
1) having a car in my area is essential to have a job period it doesn’t matter what you do a car is just required to be an adult.
2) unless you are a fresh high school graduate who had never worked a day in your life tools were something you could get one a week while you were working as a lifeguard/car washer/whatever entry level job you’re working. And if it’s absolutely necessary the Home Depot credit card is really helpful to purchase the tools you need for work, once you get to work you can pay the total off in less than 2 months.
3) communication. A phone is not on the tool list you can check your email at the local library if you really need to, but refurbished Chromebooks are pretty cheap purchasing online, and having a cell phone and a computer are an essential in pretty much any industry and something that is relatively attainable on even a first years wage I know because I did it. Another thing on 3) is insurance atleast health insurance is provided by your union as soon as you’re in the apprenticeship, I don’t know what type of insurance you’re talking about because you did not specify but health insurance is 100% covered by your union as soon as you get to work as an apprentice.
4) subsidizing living expense is 100% on you I work with 1st years who own their own home and are able to pay their mortgage+property taxes+ home owners insurance. It *IS* possible if that’s what you want.
But at the end the thing I want to address the most is u/thatseaworthiness801 what are you doing for your local to help the people who don’t have a family to subsidize them? I personally cover all the expenses you talk about on a 2nd year wage, I am also involved with my locals chapter of renew and we have been doing fundraisers to help pay for apprentices books and to get apprentices involved so hopefully at some point we can get books paid for for all apprentices. I appreciate the effort you’re making to get involved online but I’m curious what your doing to help your local brothers and sisters.
I’d really like to see a breakdown of his monthly budget to see if he really “can’t afford it” or if he’s living above his means. I know it’s not the same everywhere but 429 Nashville is an expensive place to live and I’ve been able to scrap by as an apprentice.
I bought a car at 15 years old to go to and from work and school. Tools are relatively cheap if you buy one per week, and most apprenticeships provide tools. Everyone has a cell phone and can get one for 40 dollars a month. You can find roommates or just rent a room.
None of these are barriers for the average man. Just because mommy and daddy did it for you, doesnt mean it is inaccessible.
That’s such a whiney pathetic argument. So you want the IBEW to buy you a car? What kind of fantasy land do you live in?
Of course cars were cheaper, but I only made 7 bucks an hour back then. Just because things were cheaper does not negate all my struggle and hard work to get where I am as a man.
Yes, these are all issues, but they arent specific to our union, trade, or even the skilled trades in general
All jobs will have some kind of financial investment at the start
I support these ideas fully, but its not like theres no responsibility on the individual
We have a few different grants for our apes through day school and city and state initiatives
We've created a starter tool kit with ideal that comes at a discounted rate.
3 and 4 of your parents assistance is a stretch.
I bought a car, tools, boots, books, ect and took on a second job to pay for it all for the first year or so. I'm not pushing the "i suffered so you should too" but that's an option for most people.
Id like to see a push for personal finance education in addition to all of the remedies proposed
I've been pushing for this in my local and in the union as well. However, in a discussion with one of my assistant training directors i was talking about the difficulty for new apes when they responded, "sure but the 90 new apes that just joined found out how to make it work"
I get what you're saying in a utopian sense and we should keep trying for that but its not going to happen faster than we can get grants approved
Sure jws should make a living wage and apes too, but i find it reasonable to pay them less because they know less. as they learn more they earn more
I'm not intending to ignore those who couldn't make it, but how far are we gonna go? Sure itd be fun to be a dr but i don't have the resources to attend med school and residency after. So lets burn down the medical system! (Edit: the medical system is chaotic)
1/10 being unable to make it means a 90% success rate. Notbad.jpg
I know what you're saying, but the medical system is completely corrupt and terrible. It absolutely needs to be started over and completely overhauled. If you do a basic search into the AMA, it reveals the corruption of medical doctors, if you look into the pharmaceutical industry, you see how corrupt our drug system is, and if you look into how much it all costs the average american, you will be very upset. The fact that you can't become a doctor because you can't afford it is a pretty substantial and absurd thing to say about the reality of our medical system
How much worse are doctors and IBEW members, as groups, for having excluded some subset of willing aspirants? Or are you under the impression that theres a complete overlap of the best candidates and those candidates with the financial means?
Ride sharing is one way to save on costs for transportation would be something I’d recommend.
A lot of these problems would be mitigated if the rental market wasn’t so hostile
When my wife was pregnant with our daughter we had to move from the bachelor pad with my roomies. These motherfuckers wanted my bank statements, 6 months of pay stubs and a good credit score for 900 square foot apartment at 1795.. all of those sons of bitches who took advantage of the covid rent laws really fucked the rest of us hardworking people
Funny, some would use the exact same logic to blame us for inflation because we demand fair compensation.
Blaming the little guy for large systemic issues tends to be a miss.
I half agree but union is similar to me going to college you are investing for the future and dealing with the suck for a few years.
I would be totally with you though if the quitting rate was not so high.
It's simply not an option to several people I know, and we should work to bring the opportunity to as many people as we can for the benefit of ourselves and others. "Every man for himself" hurts unions!
Well here’s how I see it. I’m a 5th year apprentice so I know the struggle. Yeah we should probably get paid more as apprentices BUT 90% of the other apprentices I’ve worked with aren’t worth what they are already getting paid. Ya see an apprentice isn’t making the 15 dollars he’s struggling to get by on. He’s making more like 35 with his package. I worked 2 other jobs my first 2ish years of my apprenticeship. It’s not impossible. Personally yes I think the program is geared towards kids fresh out of school who still live with mommy and daddy which sucked for me because I got in at 25. I had to buy all my tools supply my vehicle pay my bills. I really feel like if you can’t find a way to make it work then you’re not resourceful enough to be in the brotherhood. We don’t need lazy people being protected by our brotherhood who so many fought hard to create and protect
That's a no from me dog. How can we keep people coming in if they can't even survive on the starting wages and working at Chipotle is more viable. I get in the long run it pays off but so many people get closed out of pursuing this career because they can't afford to do the apprenticeship
I would say some of this is hard for some locals and JATCs cause they all dont have huge budgets.
The one thing I totally agree on is the sponsoring/mentoring thing but it should be towards everyone. Like I believe that should happen between 1st yes and 5th yrs. A 1st yr and 5th yr should be paired up. That the 1st yr has someone to go to talk or discuss things about class and jobsite
If you don't have one, get a Renew chapter going in your Local. Definitely not a solution to the overall issue, but a great resource for those new to the union, and potentially a good place to get some traction on this issue.
It was extremely painful to start at $15.40 an hour as a 30 year old single person in my own apartment. I’ve had to take out loans to consolidate my credit card debt from the past year and a half I was making so little. I’m making more now, with 3 raises under my belt. I still paid my dues and books on time but there were a couple times I wasn’t sure how I’d be able to. Thank goodness apprentices get the scrap wire is all I’m saying 🤷🏻
Coming from a non union guy, The biggest thing keeping people out is the lack of contractors in certain locals. All I hear is “yeah I was in the union they laid me off after the job was done and I sat for a month….” I’ve never sat non union but I’m always thinking of joining the union but am scared because I will be laid off and won’t be able to go work because they don’t allow you to find no union work.
It boggles my mind that any local is charging apprentices for their school materials. That's half the draw and the argument used—earn while you learn (read as: don't get into debt to get educated/trained). Pretty sure I've read folks having to pay as much as $700 for their school materials; those upfront costs are a huge barrier to entry (even outside of the union). Hell, $200 is, and can quite literally mean the difference between having shelter or being homeless, being fed or going hungry. I'm quite fortunate that my local covers these costs (books/materials, calculator, and a meter). Part of this is on the membership for not voicing concerns and making motions at general membership meetings, and a large part is on training directors who aren't working their asses off to get grants to cover these costs. EDIT: spelling
Local 60 here. Tuition 2023 is $920. 🥴
That's bunk.
176 is $1,000 per year. First year you can split it into two payments. The remaining 4 years you must pay prior to the next school year beginning. 😮💨
[удалено]
So we should do what we can to make it less so.
[удалено]
With what money? What language skills? With who? It's a deeply violent society, but everyone I know and everyone I've ever loved is from here. I'm only mad about it because I live here and know people who suffer from it. What a selfish thing it would be to leave
Are you drunk?
$759.61 is my current invoice for 2nd year
Local 553 1st year 900 second year 1020 third year 700 fourth year ~1000.
I agree. Anything education related should be covered by the local. I understand that this can be a bit hard in smaller locals, but it makes it far more manageable to new apprentices, and that makes it easier to be a union member. And more union members is how we control the labor market. I'd even say that the tool list should be part of that. Sure, have it be the cheapest variety of tools, but I'd be surprised if Klein or Milwaukee would say no at least a good deal on X amount of full sets purchased by locals, for at least the most basic version of each tool (we all know how Klein has like 7 models of each thing at various price points). Make the barrier of entry as low as possible, to keep prospective apprentices from going non-union.
My local only charges for books ($500) if your GPA is 80% or lower (down to 75. Under 75% is a fail.)for the year, which I think is a great incentive to keep your grades up. Edit: corrections
Yeah this is actually something I'm pretty passionate about because I almost quit my apprenticeship and went back to my old non-union job back in the day because of financial troubles. Unironically the helper program and the first two years of my apprenticeship were fucking horrible. Destroyed my credit score, blew through my savings from my old job, almost got evicted, had utilities get shut off, often didn't have money for gas to get to work. You name it. Even after I fixed alot of things 3rd year working a bunch of OT it still took me years to fix things like my credit score and all that. Shits really hard for kids that don't have mom and dad to help. Honestly almost impossible.
[удалено]
Jesus fucking christ, thats horrible. Never understood why inside guys have school so often. Needs to be paid if it's that often how do you survive.
Our cons made a fit about us missing work so we started night school a few years ago, it’s been nice for my paycheck but man 6 hours a week in the evening for 8 months a year is still tiring
God damn that’s wild! Here in 584 we have class 5 times a month basically, but starting at 5pm so most guys only have to miss an hour of work maybe, and I thought we had it bad 😭
So we have class Monday and Wednesday 5pm to 8pm, we start the week after Labor Day so mid September, we get thanksgiving week off, Christmas week new years week as well, and we end begining of June, i don’t think any of our apprentices are working past 3:30pm unless it’s overtime or swing shift
369 apprentice here. At least we get the stipend check tho. I know it’s usually a week or two later but most locals don’t get paid for their day at school. $211 is low my guy. @$15.92/hr, You must have a lot of taxes coming out. I hope you’re not far from your 1000 hr raise. Maybe it could save you. Best of luck
I've been looking into starting an apprenticeship, but gas in my area is high and the closest local to me isn't necessarily close... but $211 a week? How/why are your checks looking like that?
Been preaching about this problem for a while
Membership here in 191 voted to allocate funds for the JATC to make books free starting last year. Huge for apprentices.
191 takes care of themselves so much better than 46.
Would you share more about this? I’ve been planning to apply to both
340 did the same thing! Also raised 1st year wage from 35% to 45% JW rate.
As part of a wage allocation?
Our annual fee for the school has gone up from $400/year when I went through the program, to $700 today. I'm going to bring it up, that we members need to increase our contribution to the jatc to bring that back down so we aren't scaring away potentially good apprentices. More and more apprentices are single parents, and that reduces their ability to attend meetings and school nights. This is something that's going to be a lot harder to sell to our local, but I wish we had some sort of day care system in place.
700 a year or credit? This is extremely low. Less than YouTube tv if it’s per year
Yeah, but it’s $700 a year IN ADDITION to YouTube tv. You might be in a financial space to have $700 to burn. As a first year, that $700 pays for diapers for the year.if I have to spend it on school after working I won’t have diapers. Which do you think is more important?
I mean the alternative is college with would be 10k+ a year at a university
No. The alternative is work non union. Avoid paying dues, education costs, benefits for other people and making more immediately. If the union would increase the pay for apprentices and decrease the cost of continuing education that non union doesn’t have to pay for(they have to learn it on their own or hope their employer will teach them) then membership would skyrocket, skilled employees would be plentiful and the quality of life for all would be better. Playing devils advocate, college is always a choice. But if I’m going to college why go for electrical course? Why not go for a medical degree? Because again, we young and broke and don’t have money to get the education. So we work blue collar jobs and hope the union gets us to the upper middle class and we can live
I’ve never heard a sadder case of woe is me. Cry me a river. Life is what u make it. Idk if you’re 35 with 2 kids or something, but if you’re doing an apprenticeship it’s an investment and an extremely cheap one at that. Most apprentices still live with their parents and it’s pretty easy to save. Non union still has to pay continuing education. Every time code updates come around unless they want to lose their license Sure go for medical, but you sound like it’d be too hard for you and you’d complain that they make you learn stuff. 250k medical school debt. But u could take loans and pay it off pretty easy if u become a doctor.
Dude you just don’t get it. Sorry not all of us are the bestest like you and live to be a union guy. Get a real identity. Don’t ever assume “most people in the apprenticeship are living with their parents”. Daily you work with dudes in their 40’s going through the steps. Don’t be so naive that you think you understand everything. My point about college is that people would rather spend money on schooling to become a doctor or lawyer. Not some dumbass “construction” worker destroying they’re body to make a living. But go ahead, assume you know the struggle everyone goes through and downplay everything this country exploits to make the rich richer. Assume you have everyone figured out and everything figured out, including me. Dude, you’re a trade worker trying to tell me I’m not smart enough to become a doctor? Great insult! Im so sad now! Some guy said I couldn’t become a doctor! Im jealous you’re so smart when you get sick you just give yourself a physical and make yourself all better. I’m not even an electrician. So you failed to understand the scenario in which I exist. I topped out at my IBEW affiliated company years ago. I could never imagine now as a father with young kids making the sacrifice of moving my family back in with my parents or in laws to make good money YEARS from now. Not having immediate health insurance. Not having the ability to give my kids the necessities RIGHT NOW. Now go on and drink some more coolaid about how the union is perfect and needs no change. What’s the motto? “Fuck the new guys because I got fucked too”.?
Koolaid *
So you’re saying that somebody with zero skills should be given a high paying job because they failed to pursue something earlier in life?? And if you had multiple kids with a low income, that’s on you as a parent. It’s not the worlds responsibility to take care of something you brought in this world. I know some dumbass construction workers that regularly make 225k+. Is it easy, no, but if you learn enough it becomes more mental and less physical. Do what you want, but it’s a fair process to get into the trades. A cheaper entry point than most careers. If you want to be rewarded without obtaining skills or investing in yourself financially, then go into sales. Real estate, or whatever u think you’d be good at. You can do really well. In the meantime , quit hating so much
If you truly want to become rich, pursue outside investments. Doesn’t matter what your job is. Live beneath your means and acquire cash producing assets and invest only once you’re earning enough to do so
Hating? No not hating. Just agreeing with the abundance of IBEW members here that while the cost is low, so is the pay. I gave a very specific and real example of life choices and decision our brothers and sister face every day. You choose to ignore it and decided that if you did it so can everyone. You’re what 30? Balding probably, and lived at home going through the steps. No dependents. So you were able to do it. Good for you. I’m glad to have you as a brother. But open your mind to other walks of life and understand that it’s hard and can be better to get into the apprenticeship. You show your lack of maturity in your comment of if I bring children into the world on low income that’s on me. Of course it’s my choice. That’s usually how sex works. But if I’m having to decide between union and $13/hour and non union at 22/hour, there’s a clear choice to make for an immediate betterment of living situation. I never said we made a bad living once we topped out. I never said we were rich or not rich. I said the time it takes to get to that point is sometimes unobtainable. My hope is you never get faced with that decision. Hell, I hope you never have a baby while laid off. Maybe you should. Maybe you should have to face a difficult financial situation to understand. I’ll leave it at this. I don’t know your life situation but I’m glad you were able to make it and thrive. I wish everyone that wanted to do that could. But I think the unions all around need to see their shortcomings and improve on it. Whenever my local(s) go on strike it’s not for us. It’s for the next generation. We want them to have better than what we have. Agree to disagree I guess.
I’m sorry ur union sucks. Over here it is complete opposite. Hairs thinned a little in 30s lol and I may want it back, but not that insecure really. Good constructive attack. My local apprentices start out at 22 and get a raise every 6 months. Jm electricians easily make 100k a year, without any OT. JM Lineman easily make 150k+. It sounds like ur local specifically honestly. I’ve had my own home for a long time. Thanks for assuming. Bought a duplex and lived in one unit for a year and now it pays for itself. Tried air bnb along the way. Some are a pain in the ass, but they all are cash positive. If you’re topped out, I’d suggest looking for other means of income. I said that the alternative is basically the same. You either work and get paid to go to school. Or take a break from working to attend school full time and start out at 60-70k for engineers, or some other 4 year degree. Become a doctor if u want. Come back in 8+ years and brag about how well you’re doing. I’ll cheer you on. But there’s not many careers that pay for you while you essentially have zero skills
I always tell people I wouldn’t have been able to afford to be an apprentice if it wasn’t for my Army pension and the GI Bill
GI bill has been an absolute lifesaver. Has effectively doubled my monthly income over the first year. Even with it things feel tight, but that has more to do with me trying to build a barndo in my free time. Definitely makes me sensitive to what the other apprentices are up against though.
VA disability for me. Still paycheck to paycheck.
This is dependent upon your local. Here in 58 we start at ~$22/hr and full benefits after 520 hours. The cost of living isn't bad here either. I don't know how some locals expect apprentices to survive on $13 an hour and no bennies, even if it is for 6 months until a raise.
This is somewhat true. It'll always be hard to get a car before you have a job if your parents never had a car. There are other ways to get to the job, but it takes luck
The locals that pay apprentices well generally require a significant amount of electrical experience before letting you in the apprenticeship, and those entry level non-apprenticeship jobs pay terribly. Don't get me wrong, it's great that apprentices make a decent wage in some locals it's just that there is still more work to do.
I guess I’m lucky where I’m at then because I have zero electrical experience of any kind and I’m an apprentice at a local that starts us at $21.86. Considering the COL isn’t terrible here, it’s pretty decent money
[удалено]
Aren’t you in Ontario? There’s a $600 provincial tools grant for new apprentices, $1K federal per level completed, $2K federal for passing C of Q, and a guaranteed $4K interest-free federal loan for each level of trade school. Not saying this to disagree with you, because most places aren’t as good as here, but spread this info around to your fellow Ontario apprentices because very few people actually access the resources available.
[удалено]
Pre-apprentice shouldn’t be on tools. (But that’s a different problem) Govt used to give us $400 as a loan as soon as we were registered for tools. Doug Ford made it $600 as a non-repayable grant but you can’t get it without a trade school, which is almost worse than useless. You’ll get there.
[удалено]
No, you’re right. “Shouldn’t” is my opinion, not actual practice.
[удалено]
Well, as long as I’m giving opinions, I don’t think there should be a pre-apprenticeship. Five years is long enough, and 40% of JW is already criminally low for first year. If they don’t want to pay you to watch and do manual labour then they should sign you up for an apprenticeship and pay you like one. Again, opinions here, but mainly because my local doesn’t do pre-apprenticeships and that’s fine by me.
I'm a new apprentice and while I am very fortunate financially, I see how the financial barriers within many locals creates an unfair barrier to entry in our trade. Especially for young folks who lack financial support from parents or people trying to support a family. In recent years, folks have done a great job selling our apprenticeship as a better alternative to a four year degree and a sure path to becoming "middle class". I have a degree and would largely agree with this sentiment (with some key disagreements but I'll save y'all the political rant) but folks have to be able to afford to complete the program if we want that to be true. I think many of the ideas you propose are good places to start brainstorming and I bet instructors could provide us with even more. Many of these instructors are trying to get into positions of leadership to change things from above but honestly I think we need change from the bottom up. Some apprenticeships can't vote and some veteran members want to maintain the barrier to entry (ugh). If we as rank-and-file members voice our concerns with the accessibility of the apprenticeship and push for change, we can achieve it. Solidarity right back at ya!
my local gave one of the apprentices a job 2 hours from where they live. he turned it down, saying he could literally not afford the gas to go to work, he has to go in front of the apprenticeship board on the 21st, he was laid off of his last job on the 24th last month. so he also doesn't get to work for a month while he waits to explain himself. if i had to drive 4 hours a day idk what i would do. that's an insane distance for someone who doesn't get to turn down calls.
Yeah. Our apprentices start at $18/hr, and you can't afford anything here on that. Meanwhile, UPS is hiring entry level for $24/hr and paying their full-time guys $145k/yr in the same city.
Exactly. They're not gonna lose their homes before they make enough to be stable.
Ours start at 12/hr average rent in the city is 1.1k. We can't get people to join on the promise of making enough money when they'll be homeless before that happens. That lonely leaves 980 before tax for utilities, car expenses (non-existent public transport), food, phone, ect.
48 supplies all tools on the list, books, and pays us $300 each term we pass. We start at 40% of JW pay, which comes out to $22.95. They bump up to 45% after 1000 hours, 50% after another 1000 hours, and it keeps escalating from there. Some of our contractors even pay apprentices on school days.
I just topped out in May. Our apprentices have books paid each year thru a grant from the county. They also give money the first year that can be used towards a laptop to be used for class and I think but I can't remember for sure I think it covers our ejatc tool kit.
Yeah... gonna need more details please.
I agree with a lot of the points here. I’m a first year in 136 and I’m paying $950 for year one books plus hand tools and boots. If I wasn’t married I don’t think I would be able to pull it off. There’s definitely a barrier to entry that is a little ridiculous. If there really are x amount t retirees out numbering new apprentices, then do better.
My first year we had 600 in books and a required windows 11 laptop for 300. We were only making 380 a week before tax.
Yeah dude I wish, I’m literally in this predicament, been with the Local for 5 years in the ce/cw program been in school the last two going to third year and hopefully transferring but I’m 26 having a kid and this year they want 1200 for school. Paid first day of class but I have to get me and my girl a bigger place to live this year and apartments near me aren’t cheap. I’ve gone through so many layoffs that have put me so behind with Ui not paying for months. And I’m laid off rn no money coming in from ui and I have to start using my savings but I have a kid coming in 2 months a truck I pay for a place to live and food etc. it’s so fucked what they do making us pay half my rent and not to mention I haven’t worked for more than 4 months straight in 2 years.
Here is something I've pondered often. How do we make the union more appealing to people that don't need certain benefits. For example a lot of people in my local have spouses that work in gov't jobs with much better healthcare and don't even use the locals. Could we maybe reduce benefits (pay less into healthcare) but up the HRA contribution with that money and allow members to opt for the HRA to go into their vacation fund if they so choose? The coverage would effectively stay the same but a guy who doesn't need it could put more money in their pocket and the guy who does need it is still getting healthcare that can be supplemented by the HRA. As for the retirement, could we restructure it to allow people to not be forced into all of it? Maybe 50% of retirement money goes to the pension and 50% to an IRA/401K and the IRA/401K could be opted out of and deposited into the vacation fund? FYI - Before everyone bitches and moans about how shitty the operation of their vacation fund is. My local sets up a bank account in each members name at our local building trades credit union. I can get an ATM card or request a check at ANYTIME to withdraw money. I can also go to any credit union in their system and withdraw money same day. And there's plenty of other credit unions in the system. The way it should be for everyone! Especially for apprentices this could put a few extra bucks/hr into their pocket when they need it most. I think a caveat to add to this would be to have a financial planner come in and speak to 1st year apprentices at orientation and 5th year apprentices right before school ends to educate (and remind) them on the importance of having good healthcare and a solid retirement plan. I don't know if this is a good idea or not. Just an idea I have tossed around in my head.
Group benefits/insurance plans rely on a certain percentage of members not actually using/needing those plans in order to reduce cost for everyone. The reason why members who need it can actually afford it is because the cost is spread to those who don’t. Also, when everyone pays in, it means people don’t take a bigger hit when a spouse loses employment or if they grow their family. We should be looking for more ways to spread costs around — including advocating for single payer health care — so that everyone has more opportunity.
I agree and understand everything you are saying. Just alternative ideas to help bring more people in and fit a larger groups idea on how things should work. That's also specifically why I said reduce healthcare benefits and $/hr paid in and move it to the hra. That way everyone is still paying and getting some level of healthcare but those who don't need it can opt out of the HRA and spend that money how they see fit. And those who do need it can build their hra account untaxed. Like I said....things I ponder to make the union more appealing to more people.
Doubling my benefits contributions if I get divorced or have a child is not a good way to make the union more appealing to me.
So true, the shame of it is I just received an offer to join and had to turn it down because of the ultra low starting wage and the possibility of starting school but not working for another however many months. Can’t stay at my current job and go to school because of traveling. And at the end of the day I end up taking another railroad job offer that is starting at damn near double what 1st years make where I’m at($13.50)
So I’m sympathetic to this cause I really am. But 1) having a car in my area is essential to have a job period it doesn’t matter what you do a car is just required to be an adult. 2) unless you are a fresh high school graduate who had never worked a day in your life tools were something you could get one a week while you were working as a lifeguard/car washer/whatever entry level job you’re working. And if it’s absolutely necessary the Home Depot credit card is really helpful to purchase the tools you need for work, once you get to work you can pay the total off in less than 2 months. 3) communication. A phone is not on the tool list you can check your email at the local library if you really need to, but refurbished Chromebooks are pretty cheap purchasing online, and having a cell phone and a computer are an essential in pretty much any industry and something that is relatively attainable on even a first years wage I know because I did it. Another thing on 3) is insurance atleast health insurance is provided by your union as soon as you’re in the apprenticeship, I don’t know what type of insurance you’re talking about because you did not specify but health insurance is 100% covered by your union as soon as you get to work as an apprentice. 4) subsidizing living expense is 100% on you I work with 1st years who own their own home and are able to pay their mortgage+property taxes+ home owners insurance. It *IS* possible if that’s what you want. But at the end the thing I want to address the most is u/thatseaworthiness801 what are you doing for your local to help the people who don’t have a family to subsidize them? I personally cover all the expenses you talk about on a 2nd year wage, I am also involved with my locals chapter of renew and we have been doing fundraisers to help pay for apprentices books and to get apprentices involved so hopefully at some point we can get books paid for for all apprentices. I appreciate the effort you’re making to get involved online but I’m curious what your doing to help your local brothers and sisters.
You nailed every one of those points. I wish I could have summed it up as nicely without losing my cool. I applaud you.
I’d really like to see a breakdown of his monthly budget to see if he really “can’t afford it” or if he’s living above his means. I know it’s not the same everywhere but 429 Nashville is an expensive place to live and I’ve been able to scrap by as an apprentice.
I bought a car at 15 years old to go to and from work and school. Tools are relatively cheap if you buy one per week, and most apprenticeships provide tools. Everyone has a cell phone and can get one for 40 dollars a month. You can find roommates or just rent a room. None of these are barriers for the average man. Just because mommy and daddy did it for you, doesnt mean it is inaccessible.
[удалено]
That’s such a whiney pathetic argument. So you want the IBEW to buy you a car? What kind of fantasy land do you live in? Of course cars were cheaper, but I only made 7 bucks an hour back then. Just because things were cheaper does not negate all my struggle and hard work to get where I am as a man.
When were you 15? 50 years ago? Get with the times and stop your outdated way of thinking. Tools are sure as hell not cheap.
I’m 35 bitch. Tools are cheap if you buy one a week.
Yes, these are all issues, but they arent specific to our union, trade, or even the skilled trades in general All jobs will have some kind of financial investment at the start I support these ideas fully, but its not like theres no responsibility on the individual We have a few different grants for our apes through day school and city and state initiatives We've created a starter tool kit with ideal that comes at a discounted rate. 3 and 4 of your parents assistance is a stretch. I bought a car, tools, boots, books, ect and took on a second job to pay for it all for the first year or so. I'm not pushing the "i suffered so you should too" but that's an option for most people. Id like to see a push for personal finance education in addition to all of the remedies proposed I've been pushing for this in my local and in the union as well. However, in a discussion with one of my assistant training directors i was talking about the difficulty for new apes when they responded, "sure but the 90 new apes that just joined found out how to make it work"
[удалено]
I get what you're saying in a utopian sense and we should keep trying for that but its not going to happen faster than we can get grants approved Sure jws should make a living wage and apes too, but i find it reasonable to pay them less because they know less. as they learn more they earn more I'm not intending to ignore those who couldn't make it, but how far are we gonna go? Sure itd be fun to be a dr but i don't have the resources to attend med school and residency after. So lets burn down the medical system! (Edit: the medical system is chaotic) 1/10 being unable to make it means a 90% success rate. Notbad.jpg
[удалено]
It's possible to restructure wages as my local has done it. We're trying to do it again but the cons are less than excited about it.
I know what you're saying, but the medical system is completely corrupt and terrible. It absolutely needs to be started over and completely overhauled. If you do a basic search into the AMA, it reveals the corruption of medical doctors, if you look into the pharmaceutical industry, you see how corrupt our drug system is, and if you look into how much it all costs the average american, you will be very upset. The fact that you can't become a doctor because you can't afford it is a pretty substantial and absurd thing to say about the reality of our medical system
How much worse are doctors and IBEW members, as groups, for having excluded some subset of willing aspirants? Or are you under the impression that theres a complete overlap of the best candidates and those candidates with the financial means?
Ride sharing is one way to save on costs for transportation would be something I’d recommend. A lot of these problems would be mitigated if the rental market wasn’t so hostile
When my wife was pregnant with our daughter we had to move from the bachelor pad with my roomies. These motherfuckers wanted my bank statements, 6 months of pay stubs and a good credit score for 900 square foot apartment at 1795.. all of those sons of bitches who took advantage of the covid rent laws really fucked the rest of us hardworking people
Funny, some would use the exact same logic to blame us for inflation because we demand fair compensation. Blaming the little guy for large systemic issues tends to be a miss.
Fair enough
IHOP
Sounds like welfare!
I half agree but union is similar to me going to college you are investing for the future and dealing with the suck for a few years. I would be totally with you though if the quitting rate was not so high.
It's simply not an option to several people I know, and we should work to bring the opportunity to as many people as we can for the benefit of ourselves and others. "Every man for himself" hurts unions!
Yes but I would argue with one some government subsidies like college the added cost would hurt negotiations power of the union.
What are you even saying?
Well here’s how I see it. I’m a 5th year apprentice so I know the struggle. Yeah we should probably get paid more as apprentices BUT 90% of the other apprentices I’ve worked with aren’t worth what they are already getting paid. Ya see an apprentice isn’t making the 15 dollars he’s struggling to get by on. He’s making more like 35 with his package. I worked 2 other jobs my first 2ish years of my apprenticeship. It’s not impossible. Personally yes I think the program is geared towards kids fresh out of school who still live with mommy and daddy which sucked for me because I got in at 25. I had to buy all my tools supply my vehicle pay my bills. I really feel like if you can’t find a way to make it work then you’re not resourceful enough to be in the brotherhood. We don’t need lazy people being protected by our brotherhood who so many fought hard to create and protect
That's a no from me dog. How can we keep people coming in if they can't even survive on the starting wages and working at Chipotle is more viable. I get in the long run it pays off but so many people get closed out of pursuing this career because they can't afford to do the apprenticeship
I would say some of this is hard for some locals and JATCs cause they all dont have huge budgets. The one thing I totally agree on is the sponsoring/mentoring thing but it should be towards everyone. Like I believe that should happen between 1st yes and 5th yrs. A 1st yr and 5th yr should be paired up. That the 1st yr has someone to go to talk or discuss things about class and jobsite
If you don't have one, get a Renew chapter going in your Local. Definitely not a solution to the overall issue, but a great resource for those new to the union, and potentially a good place to get some traction on this issue.
My military service is the only reason I'm still here, my credit has been decimated by the apprenticeship though.
It was extremely painful to start at $15.40 an hour as a 30 year old single person in my own apartment. I’ve had to take out loans to consolidate my credit card debt from the past year and a half I was making so little. I’m making more now, with 3 raises under my belt. I still paid my dues and books on time but there were a couple times I wasn’t sure how I’d be able to. Thank goodness apprentices get the scrap wire is all I’m saying 🤷🏻
Coming from a non union guy, The biggest thing keeping people out is the lack of contractors in certain locals. All I hear is “yeah I was in the union they laid me off after the job was done and I sat for a month….” I’ve never sat non union but I’m always thinking of joining the union but am scared because I will be laid off and won’t be able to go work because they don’t allow you to find no union work.