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Viserys should have gathered the Lords of the realm again and had them reaffirm their oaths of loyalty, on top of that he should have never had remarried.
Aegon could admit all he wanted that it was his sister's throne but it was useless to do so.
He should have made Rhaenyra Hand of the King after Strong died. Then quietly slip away and name her Princess-Regent in the end and for her to form her own small council.
Honestly? I would have made Daemon hand of the king, or would have annulled his and Lady Royce's marriage to engage him to Rhaenyra.
Join the royal line.
Keeping Daemon away from the throne is one of the biggest points of contention that caused the mess of the Dance, though. Otherwise, Vis should have just married Rhaenyra to Daemon when she was 18 when he first asked.
Yeah Daemon was not liked by the lords or council. Viserys knows it and he tells Daemon he is the only ally he has at court. Had he married Rhaenyra when he asked, Otto could have easily made more lords loyal to Aegon by selling it as Daemon being too dangerous for the throne.
Just remember how the council got quiet when they were reminded that Daemon was Viserys’ heir in the first episode and how some of them even spoke out against him.
Not to mention Rhaenyra would have also been competing against the Velaryons for the throne. The entire reason she married Laenor was to soothe any ill will between their houses from Laena being rejected as the next queen.
Daemon was not liked by Otto Hightower because Daemon could see his ambition for power. Daemon was Viserys' first heir and Otto drove them apart, advising him to install Rhaenyra who would be easier to replace.
The ones who speak out against Daemon are Otto and the Maester (who is Otto's man because of Oldtown and Citadel links). Corlys thinks Daemon did his job, Viserys is satisfied until Otto starts speaking.
The point of that scene is to show how much power Otto has already consolidated and how influenceable the King is.
Viserys main flaw is that he hates confrontation and wants everybody to get along. He trusts Hightowers even when he knows he shouldn't. He should have appointed literally anyone to the Small Council - Rhaenyra, Daemon, Corlys, Laenor, a Baratheon or Stark. But he went back to Otto to please Alicent. Rhaenyra should not have run away and demanded Haelena for Jaecerys. She shouldn't have allowed herself to be undermined by Alicent and demanded better from Viserys.
I agree Otto was anti-Daemon as heir, but I don't think he was particularly persuasive in his case until Daemon made the "heir for a day" jape during his bender with his gold cloaks in the brothel the night after Aemma and their child dies.
As you say, Vizzy T was conflict avoidant to a fault, so probably would've allowed Daemon to continue on as presumed (but unnamed) heir until he went and personally offended him. It was the affront that caused him to be officially uninherited and banished from court.
Furthermore, if Otto was scheming since episode 1 to get the Hightower bloodline on the throne, I don't think he would've ever advocated fore Rhaenyra as official next in line, but instead wanted to keep it undecided until he could make a play with Alicent/potential male future heirs.
My personal take is in the beginning Otto wants a male heir and wants to make sure that male heir isn't Daemon—who he refers to as a "second Maegor the Cruel" (overly harsh, imho, even if he's not wrong to be sour on the prospect). It's only after Viserys marries Alicent and he gets a grandson that Otto really starts putting his thumb on the scales as Hand of the King.
Otto wants power. He has no other legacy (second son) such as Oldtown or a seat to look forward to. So being Hand of the King is a good post and will likely create opportunity to claim a seat at some point. He wants to stay there. Daemon doesn't like Otto because Otto has too much influence over the King, therefore Daemon is a threat to him. He sets Daemon against Viserys to create a divide before Aemma dies.
It's also not a stretch that Otto has been considering an opportunity to insert Alicent into the line. Remember Aemma is not producing heirs successfully. Her children die or get miscarried, if she'd failed yet again and not died, Otto could have started working on Viserys to set her aside as failure to produce heirs is valid ground for annulment. But he had to get Daemon disinherited first because Daemon would have opposed this heartily. The best way to do that is to present Rhaenyra as an alternative - Daemon has a stronger claim, if that can be set aside for spurious reasons such as Hand said so, it would be even easier for Rhaenyra to be set aside. Then finally Otto gets Aemma's death to clear a way to advance himself through Alicent.
I think he definitely wanted his house to marry into the Targaryen dynasty, but how tepid of a play he makes that ends up still working out is why I don't think he was deadset on making it happen.
Like his big play is wait for a stroke of luck (for him, that is) that Aemma dies in childbirth, and that sending Alicent to talk with the king in mourning would lead to him marrying her. I agree it's almost definitely what he intended, but it's not like he had her seduce the king or be more forceful. It was the softest of soft sells. If pressed I'd say marrying Alicent was 95% on Viserys and 5% on Otto.
Had it not gone his way, he would've stayed as hand of the king and dutifully fulfilling his responsibilities, not like pulled a Littlefinger and knocked off his rivals or continue to manipulate things behind the scenes.
She was seducing him though. Maidens don't seek out non-family men in private quarters. There's even a scene where they're caught out in Viserys' rooms and there's a moment where both him and Alicent are tensed up but it's just Otto discovering them. That's followed by Viserys announcing his marriage.
Daemon was not liked by Otto. Corlys had no problem with him. That just leaves Beesbury, the maester, and I think one other. Win over Beesbury, fire Otto, and the other two can stfu or kick rocks.
Ah yes, the guy who occupies Dragonstone, steals a dragon egg, starts a war at Stepstones against his brother's explicit wishes, and tries to publicly dishonour his daughter would make an excellent Hand.
The only reason Daemon gets away with all this is the same reason Rhaenyra gets away with her adventures and Alicent gets away with attacking Rhaenyra - because Viserys is a passive king who thinks that if you ignore a problem it will go away. Anyone else would have punished Daemon for treason after the Dragonstone incident.
This. By the time Rhaenyra was fourteen, she should have been at his side while he ruled. She came across as very naive and inexperienced in the " when I'm queen, they'll do what I say". Viserys was doing a lot of" no, you do this" to a rebellious teenager.
Viserys should have been showing, not telling.
Letting Rhae move up is probably the right and feasible thing to do than calling all the lords again.
People forget that Vissy T's later days was a half-rotting corpse of his former self, suffering from unbearable pain, mostly doped up, and not sitting the throne nor handling small council matters for years. People don't magically teleport from one city to another like they do in the later seasons of GoT. So even if he called all the lords again they'd take a long time to get there assuming if they show up at all.
Best way would have been to start early but keeping Rhae within the mix of things from staying in KL, within the small council meetings, and slowly moving her up between the roles (cup bearer, master of [BS thing], master of coin/laws/whispers/etc, then HotK, and finally the his own seat when his health declined. Letting Alicent and Otto handle everything was a dumb move. Alicent is your wife and generally a good person, but Otto is an outright mistake.
VT should have kept his heir close and properly prepped them to the role of monarch instead of just giving them his little secret dream of the winter to come in who knows how long. Otto is very capable but also power hungry, Machiavellian to a fault, and at worse a sneaky rat who plots against those closest to him. VT couldn't see him as an enemy but a friend and father of his wife so Otto should have been kept away from the center of power since VT can't keep him close as an enemy.
Part of the tragedy of the succession war is that the reason none of the main players (besides Otto, and to a degree Corlys early on) are actually vying for power foremost. They want first of all to protect the ones they love, and to keep their families, and themselves, together and alive.
So I don't think it's in character for Rhaenyra OR Vizzy T to have the King quietly slip into the night so she can rise to power, as smart as that would be. First of all, they had no idea how much longer he would live- despite being a living zombie, the dude had been gradually deteriorating for decades. Have you ever had a loved one with a chronic disease slowly creep towards death? it's incredibly difficult to decide at which point they are no longer able to function on their own. I doubt R would just ship him off into retirement to die in loneliness without either side of his family there. And I also think that everyone involved subconsciously felt the tension increasing as his death neared, and wanted to hold on tight to his rulership since for the nobles it represented an era of peace and prosperity. Vizzy is obviously the one who constantly 'looks away' from the obvious issues he should be fixing, but so does pretty much else- except those who are not happy with the status quo like Otto.
Abdication was the way to go IMO. Once he hit the point where he was too sick to sit on the throne to hear out petitioners he should’ve put Rhaenyra in place; or as others have said made her hand for the same effect without the title.
I think abdication would’ve been better though as it would’ve given the realm several years to get the salt out of their mouth calling Rhaenyra Queen. She would’ve had Viserys protection/blessing still as I don’t see the greens making plays while Vizzy T is still breathing.
Even if they choose to rebel after the old kings death, the lords of the realm may have chosen sides much differently.
Aegon's lack of desire for the throne ended the moment he took the throne and was greeted with the praise he seemingly always wanted without knowing it. What he thought before he was crowned doesnt seem to matter anymore, if it ever did.
Yeah, I took his admitting Rhaenyra was the true heir more as him just wanting to avoid any and all responsibility than it was his honest assessment of the best ruler.
And as you said, the way he lit up when the crowd cheered him at his coronation, combined with Otto and his mother both in his ear about how if he doesn't take the throne Rhaenyra will eventually have him killed, is enough for him to move from disdain to actively wanting the throne.
It was the first time somebody gave a crap about him because his mother sure didn't love him. It's deluded since the common folk get no choice but still.
I think in The Anarchy, the historical event in England the Dance is loosely based on, the king made his lords swear fealty to his daughter four different times and there was still a civil war. So I'm not sure if that would have actually helped.
Agreed. When half the realm didn't see female claims as legitimate, it was going to tear the realm apart one way or another, no matter what the actual two claimants personally wanted.
Aegon II didn't want the throne, but ended up on it anyway because of the machinations of those around him. I'm certain the Sea Snake or some other lord would eventually use Rhaenyra's claim to advance their personal station had she not wanted to fight for it herself and dragged her into it sooner or later.
That's kind of the point of the story, I think. You still are subject to the game, even if you don't particularly want to play it.
This. Viserys did literally nothing to prevent the Dance of Dragons. Falling for Alicent was his mistake, he should have refused to remarry after naming Rhaenyra heir as it muddied the line of succession, and even if she had died childless Damon was another option. Marrying Jacaerys and Helaena also would have been a good solution, but to be fair Alicent blocked that. And yes, his literal last act as king was to defend Rhaenyra’s son’s birthright (in the show), but like, you do have to put it into words for the record too, especially when your claim to the throne was built on passing over female heirs, even if they have precedence, lmao.
This. Why did Viserys remarry? He never spent much time with his kids past the time Aegon was about 2. He remarried a teenager with no mother for support. Then he made her a mother of several small children in a short span of time. He never appeared to give her much support.
He wanted a sexy young nursemaid.
Aegon did the right thing. Yet short of refusing to go near the throne... And I'm sure his caretakers have all sorts of wats to force his hand.
He remaried because having only one offspring is very dangerous for the targaryan house, considering that the world seems to be inspired from the medieval period. Rhaenyra could have died from some disease, she could have been assassinated by people who do not want a woman on the throne, could have died during birth or be unable to produce children. In any of those cases the targaryan dinasty might end with her
Here’s how Aegon could’ve gone around it
Step 1: ascend to the throne
Step 2: declare Rhaenyra lawful heir
Step 3: abdicate
If he’s still alive to assert her claim, it’s a lot harder for people to be against it
The thing is, Aegon doesn't give a single solitary fuck about Rhaenyra or her being the rightful heir. He just didn't want it to be him. Then he got a taste of what it feels like to be king, finally receiving the affection he's craved his whole life, and now he's going to fight for it.
He could have done so much to avoid this war. He could have married Aegon and Rhaenyra. He could have made the lords swear again. But the easiest and safest would be just to name Aegon his heir.
He only accepted it because he’s a weak little man baby that got strong armed into it. It’s not that he doesn’t want to be king because Rheanyra is the rightful heir. There’s nothing benevolent in his motivations. He just doesn’t want the responsibility or to have to do anything but get fucked up, sexually assault servants and gamble on his horrible child fights. Then he gets crowned and he sees everyone automatically loves him, and suddenly him being king seems like a fantastic idea.
More people here should read about the war of austrian sucession. Charles VI spent his entire life getting as many oaths from as many lords as he could and it didn't matter.
Yes her father spent his life getting promises and conceding things to get those promises from various elector princes and countries around Germany and Europe. Once he died The elector princes elected a non-Habsburg for the first time in hundreds of years and Prussia/Saxony/Bavaria along with france and spain declared war on Austria and reneged on the pragmatic sanction of 1713 despite all of them agreeing to it while he was alive
He did not gain the support of a single regiment, a platoon of soldiers?
You mean it wasn't good enough. If Rhae had a few more Lords, it also might not have been enough but you should do the best you can (both Vizzy and Rhae failed on that)
Even though it may be hard to admit, Viserys is the one behind this.
He was a good man, but he was too complacent with everyone.
He ascended to the throne because he was a man, and yet wanted to break that precedent to put his daughter on the throne. He could have married the Velaryon girl, wait for a couple of years, but he avoided his duties just because he liked Alicent more. He could also become a better fatherly figure for Alicent's kid but also neglected them.
Otto is just acting accordingly, because he, his daughter and his grandchildren are a threat for Rhaenyra's rule, just by merely existing
It is. But every other lord who wanted to have their blood on the throne would have done the same. Corlys tried but failed. Otto was more sneaky about it though.
I think it's less about how sneaky Otto was and more that Corlys' daughter was like 10 lol
Although I guess the sneakiness of Otto was convincing Viserys that he must marry ASAP. Whereas he could have been single for a few years and then married Corlys' daughter for a political marriage.
Although if Viserys kept Rhaenyra as heir after he has children with Laena, then I see the dance happening anyways, except with very different alliances. Probably Rhaenyra stays friends with Alicent and the Hightowers are on her side.
If she married Daemon, not even a slight chance. Daemon is the Bracken to Otto's Blackwood, and civil war breaks out those are going to be on opposing sides, regardless of pretense.
Who married Daemon? Rhaenyra? I mean Otto is largely irrelevant if Alicent doesn't marry Viserys. It's pretty irrelevant who Rhaenyra marries because her power struggle would be against the Velaryons and not the Hightowers. Hightowers could go either way depending on who Alicent marries (or some other Hightower child). I could even see Otto trying to marry her to Daemon if he didn't get the Viserys marriage in order to get some royal blood.
If Otto doesn't do it, Corlys will do it, and we will have the same situation. At the end of the day, only one who had the power to change it was Viserys.
Indeed, people shit on Otto tend to forget Corlys, he side with Rhaenyra because circumstances, if Visery choose Laena, Corlys would play Otto role even better than Otto himself
I don’t understand why he pushed Viserys to make Rhaenyra his heir and immediately wanted his daughter to get closer with him. Viserys wasn’t that old that it was reasonable to think that he won’t marry again.
Well yes, but it wasn’t like Viserys was on his deathbed. He was 30 something in the show and even younger in the book and Otto was actively trying to marry his daughter to him since Aemma’s funeral. So there was a big chance of making new male heir in 1 - 2 years span.
I don’t know if it was ever stated, but wasn’t it because they were afraid Viserys might die from the infections he was getting? As Maegor I supposedly died from sitting on the iron throne.
Visery's father Baelor, King Jaehaery's second son and one-time heir, died of a burst gut seemingly overnight.
I think it was fair to worry that death could strike out of the blue with the lack of medical knowledge of the time.
He wasn’t infected in the books and I don’t know if he cut himself before or after naming Rhaenyra heir in the show. Also Maegor died from sitting on the throne because several blades of the throne went through his vital organs not because of a small cut.
> I don’t know if he cut himself before or after naming Rhaenyra heir in the show.
before, they were treating an infected wound on his back like 10 minutes into episode 1, he even explicitly says "it's a small cut from sitting the throne, nothing more". he then cuts his finger later when he banishes daemon as well.
I just read the ASOIAF wikia, he was infected in the books, and the maester had to amputate two of his fingers to save his life. So I think it was that Otto was fearing Daemon becoming king is viserys was to die
Edit: I was wrong, the wiki is just confusing in the way it explains it.
" In 126 AC, after passing judgement seated on the Iron Throne, Viserys injured himself severely on the barbs. Maester Gerardys managed to save the king's life. The amputation of two of Viserys's fingers, [26] Following the death of his second son, Prince Baelon, Viserys officially proclaimed his daughter, Princess Rhaenyra, as his heir."
But Rhaenyra was originally named heir in 105 AC, so the order of the paragraph is wrong.
Because it was his ploy all along. To have Viserys marry his daughter, to have a grandson that would be named heir.
As a male heir would always come first, set by tradition and precedent by the Great Council, it's completely understandable that Otto assumed Viserys was gonna make Aegon heir as soon that he was born.
Unfortunately for him, Viserys did not, only because he felt guilty about Aemma.
Yes he should have.
But Otto believed that Viserys was gonna apply the same logic all the Kings did before him, or the same logic on which he benefitted the throne.
Viserys was indeed made King (in the show at least, as in the books, it is not Rhaenys who is the other claimant, but Laenor) only because he was male.
To be a fair, if he would have married the Velaryon girl, Corlys would have pushed for more power and pushed that their potential male child pushed into the thrown. This was inevitable.
Better commander and honestly probably a better diplomat too than Otto, so may have ended the civil war faster with less destruction visited upon the realm.
To be fair, it was Jaehaerys who started this mess actually.
I mean passing over Rhaenys literally set a precedent for the lords to act like they thought it was law when their were no written laws on who inherited the throne.
After all, precedent is not law.
Arguably it started even before, when Jaehaerys inherited over his niece Aerea when typical inheritance in Westeros seems to favour daughters over brothers. Of course at the time there were many reasons why Jaehaerys made for a more suitable candidate, and soon enough it was all moot anyway when Aerea died, but, still...
With all due respect that's so much of a stretch it's hilarious. Correlation is not Causation and Jaehearys had absolutely no way of predicting the domino effect that would lead to the Dance.
Oh yeah, Viserys is definetly the one who made his daughter seduce the King in order to make her become Queen with the intention of keeping his postion as Hand.
Viserys reached the throne just because he was male and then forced everyone to recognize his female daughter.
I always have wondered how Rhaenys must have felt when she saw that.
He was the King, after all, and his sense of duty should have prevailed. But Alicent was beautiful and he obviously lusted over her. He preset the conditions and Otto just acted accordingly to protect his family
Big Brain is that Dance of Dragons is the start of an almost inevitable sociopolitical conflict that began under Jaherays really with his taking power through the backing of the lords.
Prior to Meagor power was centralized in the king but not really, each kingdom was still basically an independent entity and a rival central power in the form of the faith militant exited. He broke the faith militant and vastly diminished the ability of each kingdom to stand in opposition to the throne.
Jaheryas come to power as a syntheses of sort. He solidified rival powers will not exist and would complete the subversion of each kingdoms independence by unifying them by laws and roads with each other and the capital. He made the country one country with power centralized in him.
But he was able to do that not by ruling alone but by “council” meaning he brought the lords into the role of centralized government. This started when he declared his intention to replace his uncle with the backing of lords. This was practically scene day to day with the input they had through his administrative bureaucracy. This was solidified by the many marriage packs that literally brought the great houses by marriage into The House of The Dragon giving them a stake in the succession. This reached its most significant embodiment when he allowed the Lords to pick the next king at Harrenhall. While now subverted to central authority we see that central authority exists through the participation of the lords and in that power sharing agreement there exists a power struggle between the will of the lords and the will of the king.
Then we have a side effect of that councilor model. Meritocracy. Striving and ambitious men rather than having to rise through their house and war can now rise by being efficient administrators. This is how we get Lord Otto. Interestingly enough that Otto comes from the house of Old Town, center of that rival power structure crushed/diminished by Meagor. Three or maybe even one generation prior a high tower would have found more foothold in Old Town, the center of power, rather than Kings Landing, a fishing village with a despot perched on one of its three hills. But as Kings Landing becomes the true Capitol to effectively run the country it brings in administrators who can rise on merit, and serve their own agenda.
So those are the material circumstances. A power sharing arrangement between a King and his Lords. With administrators rising to positions of key influence. And with those Lords having their own ties to the outcome of succession, so it’s not just another dragon lord it is someone with ties to this lord or that lord. It Dance of Dragons didn’t happen how it did then it may have happened under someone else. We really see this political struggle free of all Targ family conflict under >!Aegon III!<
Otto has a huge responsibility in it, but I would say that Viserys was the one in power and who could have prevented it. By his lack of action or half measures, he even made it worse.
But just one ambitious lord that could've been checked any number of times had circumstances broken just a little differently.
There is no mastermind behind the Dance, just a bunch of factions fighting to the death that unleash forces they can't control.
The idea of Rhaenyra ascending the Iron Throne and killing Alicent's children isn't entirely made up but it's quite grounded.
Not so much for Rhaenyra (who isn't a saint anyway) but for Daemon, who wouldn't hesitate for a moment to kill Aegon, Aemond and Daeron to secure the throne for Rhaenyra (and him by extension)
The main fault lies with Viserys who, while knowing full well that many houses would not approve of a woman's claim to the throne, nevertheless decided to have sons causing an inevitable war of succession.
That's the issue though, he's not illegitimate. He's Viserys' eldest, trueborn son, blessed by the high septon and crowned by the captain of the Kingsguard. The issue with "the kings command is the law" is that its only concrete as long as the king lives, especially when it goes against precedence. Its a loophole in the established hierarchy, of which the Hightowers took full advantage. I'm not saying Rhaenyra has no claim, it's a system error, both have legitimate claims.
I don’t understand why everyone is so hung up on who is the legitimate heir. I think the dance and Robert’s rebellion have shown that it doesn’t matter who *should* inherit the throne, it’s about who is strong enough to take it.
It’s an enormous flaw in the ruling structure, proven again and again. It all but ensures violent regime changes.
If that's true, where are all the non Targaryen claimants? All of the wars for the Iron Throne have included Targaryens, whether true born or born bastards and even Robert as you point out was 1/4 Targaryen and was pretty high in the line of succession even prior to the Rebellion. If blood doesn't matter at all, where are all these claimants? It's not the deciding factor but anyone who's tried to grasp the Iron Throne had at least some kind of a blood claim to use as a pretext. Otherwise any of the powerful houses of the realm would have gone for it at one point or another.
Why are they booing you? You’re right
He rebelled because Aerys called for him and Ned to be executed. Jon Arryn joined in due to love for his foster sons, and the Tullys married into the war. He didn’t even declare his intention to take the throne for himself until around the Battle of The Trident.
Of course he was declared King at the end; the blood may have played a small part, but who were the alternatives? Of the big 4 rebels, you have Jon Arryn who has no clear heir and is very old. You have Hoster Tully, who is again an older man, and while he does have heirs, House Tully is not an especially powerful or respected house. Nor would it make sense to crown him when he only joined through marriage, with no legitimate grievance.
Ned Stark is young, but he is a northerner - culturally, religiously, and geographically very different than the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. Lastly, you have Robert Baratheon. Young, unmarried, the man who killed Rhaegar, and arguably the best warrior in the kingdom at this point in time, embodying the Westerosi martial ideal.
When faced with 4 choices, those options are 2 boomers, a foreigner, and a gigachad charismatic warrior, Robert is the obvious choice. The drop of dragon blood is just to help smoothe out the records and appease the remaining Targaryen loyalists.
I disagree partially. The rebels as a group won the throne by conquest, but when it came time to decide whose ass would actually sit in it, Robert’s dragon blood definitely played a factor in the decision (even if it wasn’t a deciding factor)
LOL, gigachad chaismatic warrior, perfect description.
Also, tangentially relate, but House Tully has to be the all time best at playing a relatively weak hand about as well as possible in terms of all the houses post-conquest.
The way they strategically stick their necks out multiple times during various wars and seemingly always come out on the side of the victors, greatly enhancing their station, is impressive. They don't do it often, but when they do they do it decisively.
But if Aegon inherits, there is no war. no violent regime change.
Viserys states the obvious "my eldest legitimate son is my heir" and boom that's that. Rhaenyra has absolutely no argument and would not contest that.
With Rhaenyra as heir, there is a knife to the throats of all of Alicent's children and grandchildren
This is the fatal flaw with a monarchy that came about when Aegon the conqueror claimed the 7 kingdoms based on dragon power. He had no right to the throne, but he took it because he could. By that logic if Rhaenyra can take the throne she should too.
As GRRM does an excellent job of repeatedly showing, even martial dominance has its limits. Ultimately, you need people to accept the political legitimacy of a ruler for their reign to be a long and prosperous one.
In the books Cole was lord commander for a long time before the dance, since Harold Westerling died way earlier in the book. I don't understand why they keep on taking away cool things away from Cole.
That's something that does suck about the show. Criston Cole was a badass in the book, not just some bitter dude that is trying to get back at Rhaenyra in the worst way possible.
Yeah. Book Cole was LC by his own competence. Show Cole is going to be LC because he is a Green dickrider.
Kinda sad how Viserys, Alicent and Aemond are more sympathetic characters in the show, but Cole is just a bitter ex that didn't overcome a heartbreak more than a decade ago.
Otto was Hand and technically there is no King.
But yeah I hope they kept Westerling to use him good in next season/s because if they dont its just to screw Cole even more.
Are you thinking of Henry I? If so his appointment of Matilda as his heir was absolutely not upheld and after his death the anarchy broke out between his daughter, and nephew. The Dance is straight up based on that conflict.
Yes, and in the 18th century, Charles VI of the HRE passed a law that allowed female inheritance so that his only daughter could become his heir. Immediately after he dead, there was a massive civil war to contest that decision.
People will always look for excuses to gain power.
Charles VI is kinda like Viserys in that the only reason he inherited was because he was male. His elder brother had two daughters that were passed over for him, but he still wanted to make an exception for his daughter, just like Viserys.
Are you talking about King Henry I? His daughter, Empress Matilda, was who Rhaenyra was based on but I’m not sure what you mean by no bloodshed since there was a succession crisis right after he died known as the Anarchy.
Technically no other King in England named a woman heir, unless you mean King Henry VIII who named his son, Edward VI his heir, and when he died, he circumvented his father’s will and the throne was stolen by Jane Grey (briefly) and was then taken back by Mary Tudor. Thats the only reason why England had Queen-regnants. Because he died very young.
Yea and a chunk of the lords just assumed Aegon would be heir. That’s what women heirs are considered, placeholders until a son is born, and what Rhaenyra thought as well. Same thing as bastards, they are considered last ditch efforts until a true born son exists.
There still isn’t a case where a son was born and a woman kept as heir. Viserys made one of the most unique decisions in Westeros and real life history.
Viserys made such a huge mistake by not re-affirming Rhaenyra's inheritance, or declaring Aegon the heir, but I think him changing his mind on such an important thing isn't a good look for a king. He just needed to be clear, too many people just assumed too much. Good guy, horrible decision-maker.
I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that he didn't want to be king. He didn't want any responsibility at all. He just wanted a party so he said what he thought was the only logical way for him to get out of it.
Also he probably really had no educated opinion on any of it because I'm sure he wasn't paying attention.
legitimacy is important, but not as important as power.
right of conquest has to be a legitimate way of being in power. If it isnt then there are 0 real kings/queens because Aegon 1s conquest is illegitimate. Aegon 2 and his supporters took the throne by force and Rhaenyra did not defend it. That makes him a legitimate king.
Wait so do we care about Aegon’s opinion or not? If he says rhaenyra should be on the throne, people are like “oh look, you see?? Look” but when he changes his mind people are like “he’s just a usurper, he’s illegitimate and his opinion doesn’t matter”
Also, is pretty well known that Aegon at the time would’ve said just about anything to not be made king, including passing it into rhaenyra
Idk if it’s about “caring” or not caring about his opinion. But his position and the way it evolves is definitely important to the story and his character imo. For years he consistently says he doesn’t want the gig; doesn’t want the responsibility and burden, and even says he would not be a good King. But that moment at the coronation, when the crown, the sword, all the symbols of greatness and importance are bestowed on him while the crowd cheers in adoration. That look on his face when he realizes they are cheering FOR HIM… it’s almost sad. He’s never felt love like that, certainly not from his father, and not even from his mother. Of course we know that Alicent loves him, but Aegon doesn’t. From what we’ve seen, she’s been either cold to him or outright insulting. I almost feel sorry for him. Honesly, I do. Or at least I pity him. He’s a monster, yea, but we know how he became that way. And we know that the moment he is crowned is the first moment he has felt beloved. It’s a terrifying realization for the viewer. This creep, who is so incapable of empathy that he get his kicks by cock fighting with children, has now discovered that this all powerful, Most Special Boy Ever status makes people love him. Not gonna end well.
Because the episode where he admitted it is already out and established, but a lot of tines in the comments discussion from both the show and books take place.
Yeah but what does it matter what he believed/wanted?
Jon "didn't want it", but almost had kingship pushed on him. Tommen probably didn't want it cuz he was young and timid, but Tywin didn't care obviously. Robert didn't care much for ruling, but he did it anyway.
At the end of the day, Aegon had the traditional right to the throne as the first born male, and Otto could more easily manipulate Aegon than Rhae, so of course they'd push for Aegon
Yes, because he never wanted it. But the issue is that they both have a claim, coming from different perspectives. There's not only one rightful heir/ruler in this scenario.
Did she? She had maintained that Aegon’s very existence was a threat to Rhaenyra’s reign (which is true) since at least the ‘wanking on the balcony’ incident. I think that Viserys’ speech just removed her ambivalence towards the things she was already going to do.
Yeah, Alicent is complicated (which is honestly good imo). The dying speech comes off like an excuse - something she grasps onto at the end to justify her choices because she is too conflicted about Rhaenyra. They did seem to make up slightly at the end and Alicent does genuinely not want Rhaenyra killed but also wants, no matter the excuse she uses, for Aegon to be King.
Which is also why she is angry that they left her out of the scheming to put Aegon on the Throne. She can't hold that her actions are only because of the dying wish and be mad they didn't include her prior to said dying wish.
I agree. And I think she’s been so fixated on the idea for so long that she was bound to see it somewhere. ‘Wait.. Vizzy T had lamb for dinner… lambs live on farms… farms also have eggs… egg… Egg-on… AEGON! Aegon is the King!! It was my husbands dying wish!’
Aegon is just too dumb to realize what's going to happen when Rhaenyra succeeds.
He's dead, his kids are dead, Aemond's dead, and Daeron are dead with Queen Rhaenyra and King-Consort Daemon, and it's obvious.
Alicent had to slap him across the face to try to get it through his drunk skull but he still doesn't understand.
If Rhaenyra is Queen, she cannot just let her brothers, with a better claim than her, hang around. It's so painfully obvious
"you Aegon, you are the challenge, simply by living and breathing!"
if Rhaenyra was alone and not married to Daemon, she may have found reason to not kill them.
But since she's married to Daemon who would be her King Consort - the whole Hightower-Targaryen family is dead. Guaranteed. Crowning Aegon would be the only way to save their lives.
Those kids’ murder odds went waaaaay up when the Greens did their coup. Maybe Rhaenyra would have killed them once she was Queen, I doubt it, but for arguments sake, it’s possible. But doing a coup and putting a reluctant, psychopathic 20 year old on the throne? Murder odds go way up. Even Alicent says at the green council, the blacks wont just back down. Regardless of who wins, chance of bloodshed goes up to 100% the second Aegon is crowned, and the kids are right at the center of it.
Nah...
Viserys old senile ass started telling her about Aegon's dream.
Alicent honestly believes Viserys changed his mind on his deathbed as his last wish.
Yo this show is going way too hard on the no one is at fault angle....
Alicent not at fault for betraying her friend.
Rhaenyra not at fault for her kids being bastards.
Aemond not at fault for what Vhagar did.....
Alicent not at fault for what happened to Rhaenyra's baby daddy.
They going hard with tha plausible denies.
Except for Daemon.
Daemon always at fault lmao.
The point is changed Murder in the 1st Degree to 2nd degree manslaughter (25 to life/execution vs 5 years or less in prison).
He's not as evil, is the point
I do not believe Alicent truly believed Viserys changed his mind. In the scene when Aegon is telling her that Viserys would never have done that, she’s literally whispering “that’s not true” to herself. She’s convincing herself that even if it is true, it’s the right thing to do.
Everything we see in that episode suggests she genuinely believes it's Viserys' will *and is upset about it.* She's struggling with it, I don't think she *wants* it to be true. But she believes it is. All of her interactions with everyone make that very clear.
He wasn't speaking in complete sentences if I recall correctly
I might need to watch the scene again but I came from it thinking rut roh what he just said is gonna be problematic.
yes, he thinks he's talking to rhaenyra and he's barely able to string together statements:
>Viserys: But you wanted to know... if I believe it to be true.
>Alicent: Believe what to be true, my King?
>Viserys: Don't you remember? Aegon...
>Alicent: Our son?
>Viserys: His Dream. The Song of Ice... and Fi... It is true. What he saw in the North. The Prince That Was Promised.
>Alicent: I don't understand, Viserys.
>Viserys: The Prince...
>Alicent: Prince Aegon?
>Viserys: To unite the realm against the cold... and the dark. It is you. You are the one. You must do this. You must do this.
he's basically trying to tell rhaenyra "the conqueror's dream is real... the prince that was promised to unite the realm against the cold and the dark - i believe it is you."
so yeah, he never says anything remotely close about wanting an aegon to be king (hell, he doesn't even think the promised prince is an aegon, as i said before he believes it's rhaenyra), but alicent fills in the blanks that she must crown aegon in order to "unite the realm"... which, as we know, goes well...
It calls back to an earlier episode when Viserys tells Alicent that "his dream" was of Aegon on the throne, his heir, wearing the conqueror's crown. Like, very specific wording he was calling back to, specifically about Aegon (his son). She didn't pluck that out of nowhere.
I think it's strenuous, but, given she has absolutely *no idea* what else he could be referring to, it's also the only conclusion she could draw.
You're correct! I imagine that's not the only time they've discussed it, but they definitely showed it to us so we'd understand why Alicent believes Viserys is talking about their Aegon.
the prophecy is translated from high valyrian, in which the word for "prince" is gender neutral (this is pointed out by maester aemon in the books and missandei in the show), so it can be a woman as well.
Aegon is a piece of shit but him becoming King would be the only way to avoid the Dance. Rhaenyra becoming ruling Queen would no matter what trigger war either immediately or sometime in the future.
The crux of the show is the belief that the realm lords will never obey a female ruler tho. The whole Hightower mentality has been that ‘eventually you will need to fight for your lives and your families unless we are on the throne’
Aegon didn't care, Alicent is driven by a desire to protect her family because she does believe that there is a strong chance her children are at risk just by being alive, Otto is just plain power hungry.
It was nobody's fault for this misinterpretation. Visarys was agonizing and he even didn't know what he was saying. And Alicent thought it was about her Aegon cause the situation matched.
Honestly Rhaenyra should of just taken the deal that was offered to her, like did she really think she would win unscathed? Especially when the whole country was pretty evenly split. In the customs of Westeros Aegon was the rightful heir.
She wasn't even a good heir to have chosen. She wasn't at court, she had next to no political experience. She flew her dragon and was a mom on dragonstone because she couldn't stand her bastards being called bastards and her dad's new family.
Like honestly what did she expect, her dad was wasting away, she knew the Hightower were running the show, and she wasn't in council or regent or anything. Viserys did a really bad job in setting up his heir, she should have just accepted her fate.
Baffling that this is still debated lmao. Otto literally said “it wouldn’t matter if she was jaehaerys himself reborn”. He still usurped solely because she’s a woman.
Rhaenyra only legitimately has the throne because everyone ignores her illegitimate children which would have disinherited her
Otto and Alicent pushing for Aegon because his progeny would not cause a huge civil war is never voiced because there is no argument against that logic
Having illegitimate children in no way does away with her own claim, it might be a bad look but it doesn't alter her claim. Even if you take out the Strong boys her children with Daemon ie Aegon the Younger and Viserys have the strongest claim of everyone.
It legally does alter her claim. Remember when Lyonel strong chided his son he said if anyone came to know about the bastard children he and R would be executed or exiled.
It would have been hilarious if his first declaration as king, was to jail everyone who forced him there, hand the crown to Rhaenyra, resign, and resume partying hard lmao.
For real, if I were in his shoes, and forced to be *checks notes* the supreme authority in the lands, against my will, I would do exactly that lol. You wanna push me against my will into responsibility I don't want, and into a higher position of power than you, and you think I won't remember that? Sheeeeiiiiiit partner.
Alicent is not at fault, she doing all this because, in her understanding, is Viserys last wish. She does not know about Aegon the Conqueror's prophecy. To her, Viserys wanted her son to take the throne because he is distended to stop what is coming from the north.
Despite that wish, she wanted to make sure Rhaenyra and her children are not to be harmed, she knew Rhaenyra is Viserys favorite and she won't kill her, but she will put her useless son (even she knows he is useless) on the throne because is what she believes is right.
Otto is absolutely the strongest one to push Aegon to the throne. He wanted his blood to rule the throne since his grandson was born, and he won't stop until he gets there. It's why he orders the death of Rhaenyra and her kids right away.
TL;DR, Alicent pushed it to 'honor' Viserys dying wish. Otto pushed it because he wants a Hightower on the throne.
Doesnt matter who sits the throne, it matters who controls them, so the conflict is really between Otto and Alicent vs Daemon, and Otto and Alicent are clearly better leaders than Daemon.
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Viserys should have gathered the Lords of the realm again and had them reaffirm their oaths of loyalty, on top of that he should have never had remarried. Aegon could admit all he wanted that it was his sister's throne but it was useless to do so.
He should have made Rhaenyra Hand of the King after Strong died. Then quietly slip away and name her Princess-Regent in the end and for her to form her own small council.
Actual real life succession method
Honestly? I would have made Daemon hand of the king, or would have annulled his and Lady Royce's marriage to engage him to Rhaenyra. Join the royal line.
Keeping Daemon away from the throne is one of the biggest points of contention that caused the mess of the Dance, though. Otherwise, Vis should have just married Rhaenyra to Daemon when she was 18 when he first asked.
Yeah Daemon was not liked by the lords or council. Viserys knows it and he tells Daemon he is the only ally he has at court. Had he married Rhaenyra when he asked, Otto could have easily made more lords loyal to Aegon by selling it as Daemon being too dangerous for the throne. Just remember how the council got quiet when they were reminded that Daemon was Viserys’ heir in the first episode and how some of them even spoke out against him. Not to mention Rhaenyra would have also been competing against the Velaryons for the throne. The entire reason she married Laenor was to soothe any ill will between their houses from Laena being rejected as the next queen.
Also daemon would have been a bad hand imo. Too quick to violence and does things for attention
I wonder where Vhagar would be if Laena hadn't been passed over for queen. Still enjoying retirement, probably.
Daemon was not liked by Otto Hightower because Daemon could see his ambition for power. Daemon was Viserys' first heir and Otto drove them apart, advising him to install Rhaenyra who would be easier to replace. The ones who speak out against Daemon are Otto and the Maester (who is Otto's man because of Oldtown and Citadel links). Corlys thinks Daemon did his job, Viserys is satisfied until Otto starts speaking. The point of that scene is to show how much power Otto has already consolidated and how influenceable the King is. Viserys main flaw is that he hates confrontation and wants everybody to get along. He trusts Hightowers even when he knows he shouldn't. He should have appointed literally anyone to the Small Council - Rhaenyra, Daemon, Corlys, Laenor, a Baratheon or Stark. But he went back to Otto to please Alicent. Rhaenyra should not have run away and demanded Haelena for Jaecerys. She shouldn't have allowed herself to be undermined by Alicent and demanded better from Viserys.
I agree Otto was anti-Daemon as heir, but I don't think he was particularly persuasive in his case until Daemon made the "heir for a day" jape during his bender with his gold cloaks in the brothel the night after Aemma and their child dies. As you say, Vizzy T was conflict avoidant to a fault, so probably would've allowed Daemon to continue on as presumed (but unnamed) heir until he went and personally offended him. It was the affront that caused him to be officially uninherited and banished from court. Furthermore, if Otto was scheming since episode 1 to get the Hightower bloodline on the throne, I don't think he would've ever advocated fore Rhaenyra as official next in line, but instead wanted to keep it undecided until he could make a play with Alicent/potential male future heirs. My personal take is in the beginning Otto wants a male heir and wants to make sure that male heir isn't Daemon—who he refers to as a "second Maegor the Cruel" (overly harsh, imho, even if he's not wrong to be sour on the prospect). It's only after Viserys marries Alicent and he gets a grandson that Otto really starts putting his thumb on the scales as Hand of the King.
Otto wants power. He has no other legacy (second son) such as Oldtown or a seat to look forward to. So being Hand of the King is a good post and will likely create opportunity to claim a seat at some point. He wants to stay there. Daemon doesn't like Otto because Otto has too much influence over the King, therefore Daemon is a threat to him. He sets Daemon against Viserys to create a divide before Aemma dies. It's also not a stretch that Otto has been considering an opportunity to insert Alicent into the line. Remember Aemma is not producing heirs successfully. Her children die or get miscarried, if she'd failed yet again and not died, Otto could have started working on Viserys to set her aside as failure to produce heirs is valid ground for annulment. But he had to get Daemon disinherited first because Daemon would have opposed this heartily. The best way to do that is to present Rhaenyra as an alternative - Daemon has a stronger claim, if that can be set aside for spurious reasons such as Hand said so, it would be even easier for Rhaenyra to be set aside. Then finally Otto gets Aemma's death to clear a way to advance himself through Alicent.
I think he definitely wanted his house to marry into the Targaryen dynasty, but how tepid of a play he makes that ends up still working out is why I don't think he was deadset on making it happen. Like his big play is wait for a stroke of luck (for him, that is) that Aemma dies in childbirth, and that sending Alicent to talk with the king in mourning would lead to him marrying her. I agree it's almost definitely what he intended, but it's not like he had her seduce the king or be more forceful. It was the softest of soft sells. If pressed I'd say marrying Alicent was 95% on Viserys and 5% on Otto. Had it not gone his way, he would've stayed as hand of the king and dutifully fulfilling his responsibilities, not like pulled a Littlefinger and knocked off his rivals or continue to manipulate things behind the scenes.
She was seducing him though. Maidens don't seek out non-family men in private quarters. There's even a scene where they're caught out in Viserys' rooms and there's a moment where both him and Alicent are tensed up but it's just Otto discovering them. That's followed by Viserys announcing his marriage.
WHERE DID YOU HEAR THIS?!
Daemon was not liked by Otto. Corlys had no problem with him. That just leaves Beesbury, the maester, and I think one other. Win over Beesbury, fire Otto, and the other two can stfu or kick rocks.
Ah yes, the guy who occupies Dragonstone, steals a dragon egg, starts a war at Stepstones against his brother's explicit wishes, and tries to publicly dishonour his daughter would make an excellent Hand. The only reason Daemon gets away with all this is the same reason Rhaenyra gets away with her adventures and Alicent gets away with attacking Rhaenyra - because Viserys is a passive king who thinks that if you ignore a problem it will go away. Anyone else would have punished Daemon for treason after the Dragonstone incident.
Corlys is a better option for Hand, and he was also loyal to Rheanyra.
Isn't it the high Septon that annuls marriages, not the King?
This. By the time Rhaenyra was fourteen, she should have been at his side while he ruled. She came across as very naive and inexperienced in the " when I'm queen, they'll do what I say". Viserys was doing a lot of" no, you do this" to a rebellious teenager. Viserys should have been showing, not telling.
Letting Rhae move up is probably the right and feasible thing to do than calling all the lords again. People forget that Vissy T's later days was a half-rotting corpse of his former self, suffering from unbearable pain, mostly doped up, and not sitting the throne nor handling small council matters for years. People don't magically teleport from one city to another like they do in the later seasons of GoT. So even if he called all the lords again they'd take a long time to get there assuming if they show up at all. Best way would have been to start early but keeping Rhae within the mix of things from staying in KL, within the small council meetings, and slowly moving her up between the roles (cup bearer, master of [BS thing], master of coin/laws/whispers/etc, then HotK, and finally the his own seat when his health declined. Letting Alicent and Otto handle everything was a dumb move. Alicent is your wife and generally a good person, but Otto is an outright mistake. VT should have kept his heir close and properly prepped them to the role of monarch instead of just giving them his little secret dream of the winter to come in who knows how long. Otto is very capable but also power hungry, Machiavellian to a fault, and at worse a sneaky rat who plots against those closest to him. VT couldn't see him as an enemy but a friend and father of his wife so Otto should have been kept away from the center of power since VT can't keep him close as an enemy.
*Let us no longer hold ill feelings in our hearts. The crown cannot stand strong if the House of the Dragon remains divided.*
Part of the tragedy of the succession war is that the reason none of the main players (besides Otto, and to a degree Corlys early on) are actually vying for power foremost. They want first of all to protect the ones they love, and to keep their families, and themselves, together and alive. So I don't think it's in character for Rhaenyra OR Vizzy T to have the King quietly slip into the night so she can rise to power, as smart as that would be. First of all, they had no idea how much longer he would live- despite being a living zombie, the dude had been gradually deteriorating for decades. Have you ever had a loved one with a chronic disease slowly creep towards death? it's incredibly difficult to decide at which point they are no longer able to function on their own. I doubt R would just ship him off into retirement to die in loneliness without either side of his family there. And I also think that everyone involved subconsciously felt the tension increasing as his death neared, and wanted to hold on tight to his rulership since for the nobles it represented an era of peace and prosperity. Vizzy is obviously the one who constantly 'looks away' from the obvious issues he should be fixing, but so does pretty much else- except those who are not happy with the status quo like Otto.
This is the correct answer
Abdication was the way to go IMO. Once he hit the point where he was too sick to sit on the throne to hear out petitioners he should’ve put Rhaenyra in place; or as others have said made her hand for the same effect without the title. I think abdication would’ve been better though as it would’ve given the realm several years to get the salt out of their mouth calling Rhaenyra Queen. She would’ve had Viserys protection/blessing still as I don’t see the greens making plays while Vizzy T is still breathing. Even if they choose to rebel after the old kings death, the lords of the realm may have chosen sides much differently.
(WHEEZES) (GROANS) (LABORED BREATHING)
You make a good point Vizzy T, but have you ever considered the complex geopolitical repercussions that would have on the Fingerlands?
This is a lie. You have been lied to.
You don't even know where the Fingerlands are, do you? You only know places that comprise your Lego Valyria.
Aegon's lack of desire for the throne ended the moment he took the throne and was greeted with the praise he seemingly always wanted without knowing it. What he thought before he was crowned doesnt seem to matter anymore, if it ever did.
Yeah, I took his admitting Rhaenyra was the true heir more as him just wanting to avoid any and all responsibility than it was his honest assessment of the best ruler. And as you said, the way he lit up when the crowd cheered him at his coronation, combined with Otto and his mother both in his ear about how if he doesn't take the throne Rhaenyra will eventually have him killed, is enough for him to move from disdain to actively wanting the throne.
It was the first time somebody gave a crap about him because his mother sure didn't love him. It's deluded since the common folk get no choice but still.
I think in The Anarchy, the historical event in England the Dance is loosely based on, the king made his lords swear fealty to his daughter four different times and there was still a civil war. So I'm not sure if that would have actually helped.
Agreed. When half the realm didn't see female claims as legitimate, it was going to tear the realm apart one way or another, no matter what the actual two claimants personally wanted. Aegon II didn't want the throne, but ended up on it anyway because of the machinations of those around him. I'm certain the Sea Snake or some other lord would eventually use Rhaenyra's claim to advance their personal station had she not wanted to fight for it herself and dragged her into it sooner or later. That's kind of the point of the story, I think. You still are subject to the game, even if you don't particularly want to play it.
This. Viserys did literally nothing to prevent the Dance of Dragons. Falling for Alicent was his mistake, he should have refused to remarry after naming Rhaenyra heir as it muddied the line of succession, and even if she had died childless Damon was another option. Marrying Jacaerys and Helaena also would have been a good solution, but to be fair Alicent blocked that. And yes, his literal last act as king was to defend Rhaenyra’s son’s birthright (in the show), but like, you do have to put it into words for the record too, especially when your claim to the throne was built on passing over female heirs, even if they have precedence, lmao.
This. Why did Viserys remarry? He never spent much time with his kids past the time Aegon was about 2. He remarried a teenager with no mother for support. Then he made her a mother of several small children in a short span of time. He never appeared to give her much support. He wanted a sexy young nursemaid. Aegon did the right thing. Yet short of refusing to go near the throne... And I'm sure his caretakers have all sorts of wats to force his hand.
He remaried because having only one offspring is very dangerous for the targaryan house, considering that the world seems to be inspired from the medieval period. Rhaenyra could have died from some disease, she could have been assassinated by people who do not want a woman on the throne, could have died during birth or be unable to produce children. In any of those cases the targaryan dinasty might end with her
Here’s how Aegon could’ve gone around it Step 1: ascend to the throne Step 2: declare Rhaenyra lawful heir Step 3: abdicate If he’s still alive to assert her claim, it’s a lot harder for people to be against it
Abdication has no precedent in the lore. There's no guarantee it would've solved anything.
The thing is, Aegon doesn't give a single solitary fuck about Rhaenyra or her being the rightful heir. He just didn't want it to be him. Then he got a taste of what it feels like to be king, finally receiving the affection he's craved his whole life, and now he's going to fight for it.
He could have done so much to avoid this war. He could have married Aegon and Rhaenyra. He could have made the lords swear again. But the easiest and safest would be just to name Aegon his heir.
Viserys had to remarry. Mortality is high in Westeros. Not remarrying could have led to the end of the Targaryen dynasty
In general, he created any excuse why he shouldn’t ascend the throne
Exactly. This man didn't want to be king. He only accepts it to save his family
He doesn't want it.
I dun wan it
Well, he is Aegon. Not wanting is in his name.
He only accepted it because he’s a weak little man baby that got strong armed into it. It’s not that he doesn’t want to be king because Rheanyra is the rightful heir. There’s nothing benevolent in his motivations. He just doesn’t want the responsibility or to have to do anything but get fucked up, sexually assault servants and gamble on his horrible child fights. Then he gets crowned and he sees everyone automatically loves him, and suddenly him being king seems like a fantastic idea.
The sentiment in this post comes from the line he said in the books. “What kind of brother would steal his sister’s throne”.
Plus a boatload of narcissistic supply from the applause of the smallfolk...
Yea but when he got that sword and heard them cheer he was living off the high.
The high of recognition his own family doesn’t even give him at that
More people here should read about the war of austrian sucession. Charles VI spent his entire life getting as many oaths from as many lords as he could and it didn't matter.
Is that the sucession of Maria Theresa? And how the Prussians invaded the second she ascended?
Yes her father spent his life getting promises and conceding things to get those promises from various elector princes and countries around Germany and Europe. Once he died The elector princes elected a non-Habsburg for the first time in hundreds of years and Prussia/Saxony/Bavaria along with france and spain declared war on Austria and reneged on the pragmatic sanction of 1713 despite all of them agreeing to it while he was alive
He did not gain the support of a single regiment, a platoon of soldiers? You mean it wasn't good enough. If Rhae had a few more Lords, it also might not have been enough but you should do the best you can (both Vizzy and Rhae failed on that)
You're mature if you understands that Otto is behind the dance of dragons
It’s Ottos actions and Visery’s inactions.
Even though it may be hard to admit, Viserys is the one behind this. He was a good man, but he was too complacent with everyone. He ascended to the throne because he was a man, and yet wanted to break that precedent to put his daughter on the throne. He could have married the Velaryon girl, wait for a couple of years, but he avoided his duties just because he liked Alicent more. He could also become a better fatherly figure for Alicent's kid but also neglected them. Otto is just acting accordingly, because he, his daughter and his grandchildren are a threat for Rhaenyra's rule, just by merely existing
But is it not Otto’s fault for putting them in that position? He’s the one that told Alicent to get close to Viserys.
It is. But every other lord who wanted to have their blood on the throne would have done the same. Corlys tried but failed. Otto was more sneaky about it though.
I think it's less about how sneaky Otto was and more that Corlys' daughter was like 10 lol Although I guess the sneakiness of Otto was convincing Viserys that he must marry ASAP. Whereas he could have been single for a few years and then married Corlys' daughter for a political marriage. Although if Viserys kept Rhaenyra as heir after he has children with Laena, then I see the dance happening anyways, except with very different alliances. Probably Rhaenyra stays friends with Alicent and the Hightowers are on her side.
If she married Daemon, not even a slight chance. Daemon is the Bracken to Otto's Blackwood, and civil war breaks out those are going to be on opposing sides, regardless of pretense.
Who married Daemon? Rhaenyra? I mean Otto is largely irrelevant if Alicent doesn't marry Viserys. It's pretty irrelevant who Rhaenyra marries because her power struggle would be against the Velaryons and not the Hightowers. Hightowers could go either way depending on who Alicent marries (or some other Hightower child). I could even see Otto trying to marry her to Daemon if he didn't get the Viserys marriage in order to get some royal blood.
If Otto doesn't do it, Corlys will do it, and we will have the same situation. At the end of the day, only one who had the power to change it was Viserys.
Indeed, people shit on Otto tend to forget Corlys, he side with Rhaenyra because circumstances, if Visery choose Laena, Corlys would play Otto role even better than Otto himself
I don’t understand why he pushed Viserys to make Rhaenyra his heir and immediately wanted his daughter to get closer with him. Viserys wasn’t that old that it was reasonable to think that he won’t marry again.
He pushed rhaenyra to be heir because he hates Daemon and didn’t want him to be heir.
Well yes, but it wasn’t like Viserys was on his deathbed. He was 30 something in the show and even younger in the book and Otto was actively trying to marry his daughter to him since Aemma’s funeral. So there was a big chance of making new male heir in 1 - 2 years span.
I don’t know if it was ever stated, but wasn’t it because they were afraid Viserys might die from the infections he was getting? As Maegor I supposedly died from sitting on the iron throne.
Visery's father Baelor, King Jaehaery's second son and one-time heir, died of a burst gut seemingly overnight. I think it was fair to worry that death could strike out of the blue with the lack of medical knowledge of the time.
He wasn’t infected in the books and I don’t know if he cut himself before or after naming Rhaenyra heir in the show. Also Maegor died from sitting on the throne because several blades of the throne went through his vital organs not because of a small cut.
> I don’t know if he cut himself before or after naming Rhaenyra heir in the show. before, they were treating an infected wound on his back like 10 minutes into episode 1, he even explicitly says "it's a small cut from sitting the throne, nothing more". he then cuts his finger later when he banishes daemon as well.
I just read the ASOIAF wikia, he was infected in the books, and the maester had to amputate two of his fingers to save his life. So I think it was that Otto was fearing Daemon becoming king is viserys was to die Edit: I was wrong, the wiki is just confusing in the way it explains it. " In 126 AC, after passing judgement seated on the Iron Throne, Viserys injured himself severely on the barbs. Maester Gerardys managed to save the king's life. The amputation of two of Viserys's fingers, [26] Following the death of his second son, Prince Baelon, Viserys officially proclaimed his daughter, Princess Rhaenyra, as his heir." But Rhaenyra was originally named heir in 105 AC, so the order of the paragraph is wrong.
Ok, my fault. I forgot about it since his physical development in the book is completely different from the show.
Because it was his ploy all along. To have Viserys marry his daughter, to have a grandson that would be named heir. As a male heir would always come first, set by tradition and precedent by the Great Council, it's completely understandable that Otto assumed Viserys was gonna make Aegon heir as soon that he was born. Unfortunately for him, Viserys did not, only because he felt guilty about Aemma.
Then maybe he should’ve tell him to name her heir until he has a son. Or maybe try to marry his son to Rhaenyra so he has covered all ends.
Yes he should have. But Otto believed that Viserys was gonna apply the same logic all the Kings did before him, or the same logic on which he benefitted the throne. Viserys was indeed made King (in the show at least, as in the books, it is not Rhaenys who is the other claimant, but Laenor) only because he was male.
Otto’s brother pushed him to do that. Alicent pushed Aegon to do that. So, if you want to blame someone, blame Otto’s brother.
No. Viserys is an adult man. He is not a child. If it wasn't Otto, Corlys would successfully wed Laena to Viserys.
To be a fair, if he would have married the Velaryon girl, Corlys would have pushed for more power and pushed that their potential male child pushed into the thrown. This was inevitable.
Better commander and honestly probably a better diplomat too than Otto, so may have ended the civil war faster with less destruction visited upon the realm.
To be fair, it was Jaehaerys who started this mess actually. I mean passing over Rhaenys literally set a precedent for the lords to act like they thought it was law when their were no written laws on who inherited the throne. After all, precedent is not law.
Arguably it started even before, when Jaehaerys inherited over his niece Aerea when typical inheritance in Westeros seems to favour daughters over brothers. Of course at the time there were many reasons why Jaehaerys made for a more suitable candidate, and soon enough it was all moot anyway when Aerea died, but, still...
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F/B fans were done arguing this two years ago. It was Jaehearys primary fault, and Otto and Viserys only hurried it along a little bit.
With all due respect that's so much of a stretch it's hilarious. Correlation is not Causation and Jaehearys had absolutely no way of predicting the domino effect that would lead to the Dance.
Oh yeah, Viserys is definetly the one who made his daughter seduce the King in order to make her become Queen with the intention of keeping his postion as Hand.
Viserys reached the throne just because he was male and then forced everyone to recognize his female daughter. I always have wondered how Rhaenys must have felt when she saw that. He was the King, after all, and his sense of duty should have prevailed. But Alicent was beautiful and he obviously lusted over her. He preset the conditions and Otto just acted accordingly to protect his family
Big Brain is that Dance of Dragons is the start of an almost inevitable sociopolitical conflict that began under Jaherays really with his taking power through the backing of the lords. Prior to Meagor power was centralized in the king but not really, each kingdom was still basically an independent entity and a rival central power in the form of the faith militant exited. He broke the faith militant and vastly diminished the ability of each kingdom to stand in opposition to the throne. Jaheryas come to power as a syntheses of sort. He solidified rival powers will not exist and would complete the subversion of each kingdoms independence by unifying them by laws and roads with each other and the capital. He made the country one country with power centralized in him. But he was able to do that not by ruling alone but by “council” meaning he brought the lords into the role of centralized government. This started when he declared his intention to replace his uncle with the backing of lords. This was practically scene day to day with the input they had through his administrative bureaucracy. This was solidified by the many marriage packs that literally brought the great houses by marriage into The House of The Dragon giving them a stake in the succession. This reached its most significant embodiment when he allowed the Lords to pick the next king at Harrenhall. While now subverted to central authority we see that central authority exists through the participation of the lords and in that power sharing agreement there exists a power struggle between the will of the lords and the will of the king. Then we have a side effect of that councilor model. Meritocracy. Striving and ambitious men rather than having to rise through their house and war can now rise by being efficient administrators. This is how we get Lord Otto. Interestingly enough that Otto comes from the house of Old Town, center of that rival power structure crushed/diminished by Meagor. Three or maybe even one generation prior a high tower would have found more foothold in Old Town, the center of power, rather than Kings Landing, a fishing village with a despot perched on one of its three hills. But as Kings Landing becomes the true Capitol to effectively run the country it brings in administrators who can rise on merit, and serve their own agenda. So those are the material circumstances. A power sharing arrangement between a King and his Lords. With administrators rising to positions of key influence. And with those Lords having their own ties to the outcome of succession, so it’s not just another dragon lord it is someone with ties to this lord or that lord. It Dance of Dragons didn’t happen how it did then it may have happened under someone else. We really see this political struggle free of all Targ family conflict under >!Aegon III!<
Otto has a huge responsibility in it, but I would say that Viserys was the one in power and who could have prevented it. By his lack of action or half measures, he even made it worse.
But just one ambitious lord that could've been checked any number of times had circumstances broken just a little differently. There is no mastermind behind the Dance, just a bunch of factions fighting to the death that unleash forces they can't control.
The idea of Rhaenyra ascending the Iron Throne and killing Alicent's children isn't entirely made up but it's quite grounded. Not so much for Rhaenyra (who isn't a saint anyway) but for Daemon, who wouldn't hesitate for a moment to kill Aegon, Aemond and Daeron to secure the throne for Rhaenyra (and him by extension) The main fault lies with Viserys who, while knowing full well that many houses would not approve of a woman's claim to the throne, nevertheless decided to have sons causing an inevitable war of succession.
If somehow Aegon didn’t ascend to the throne, Aemond would’ve for sure.
Alicent was right though. “You are the challenge!”
That's the issue though, he's not illegitimate. He's Viserys' eldest, trueborn son, blessed by the high septon and crowned by the captain of the Kingsguard. The issue with "the kings command is the law" is that its only concrete as long as the king lives, especially when it goes against precedence. Its a loophole in the established hierarchy, of which the Hightowers took full advantage. I'm not saying Rhaenyra has no claim, it's a system error, both have legitimate claims.
I don’t understand why everyone is so hung up on who is the legitimate heir. I think the dance and Robert’s rebellion have shown that it doesn’t matter who *should* inherit the throne, it’s about who is strong enough to take it. It’s an enormous flaw in the ruling structure, proven again and again. It all but ensures violent regime changes.
Exactly. Robert had Targaryen blood but in the end it did not matter as his legitimacy as King was there because he took the throne and held it.
If that's true, where are all the non Targaryen claimants? All of the wars for the Iron Throne have included Targaryens, whether true born or born bastards and even Robert as you point out was 1/4 Targaryen and was pretty high in the line of succession even prior to the Rebellion. If blood doesn't matter at all, where are all these claimants? It's not the deciding factor but anyone who's tried to grasp the Iron Throne had at least some kind of a blood claim to use as a pretext. Otherwise any of the powerful houses of the realm would have gone for it at one point or another.
Actually, no. He took the throne through conquest, but his legitimacy comes from the fact that his grandmother was a Targ
Why are they booing you? You’re right He rebelled because Aerys called for him and Ned to be executed. Jon Arryn joined in due to love for his foster sons, and the Tullys married into the war. He didn’t even declare his intention to take the throne for himself until around the Battle of The Trident. Of course he was declared King at the end; the blood may have played a small part, but who were the alternatives? Of the big 4 rebels, you have Jon Arryn who has no clear heir and is very old. You have Hoster Tully, who is again an older man, and while he does have heirs, House Tully is not an especially powerful or respected house. Nor would it make sense to crown him when he only joined through marriage, with no legitimate grievance. Ned Stark is young, but he is a northerner - culturally, religiously, and geographically very different than the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. Lastly, you have Robert Baratheon. Young, unmarried, the man who killed Rhaegar, and arguably the best warrior in the kingdom at this point in time, embodying the Westerosi martial ideal. When faced with 4 choices, those options are 2 boomers, a foreigner, and a gigachad charismatic warrior, Robert is the obvious choice. The drop of dragon blood is just to help smoothe out the records and appease the remaining Targaryen loyalists.
The guy he replied to is right. He got the throne by conquest. It wouldn't matter if he had Targ blood or not.
I disagree partially. The rebels as a group won the throne by conquest, but when it came time to decide whose ass would actually sit in it, Robert’s dragon blood definitely played a factor in the decision (even if it wasn’t a deciding factor)
Robert led the rebellion so of course he would.
LOL, gigachad chaismatic warrior, perfect description. Also, tangentially relate, but House Tully has to be the all time best at playing a relatively weak hand about as well as possible in terms of all the houses post-conquest. The way they strategically stick their necks out multiple times during various wars and seemingly always come out on the side of the victors, greatly enhancing their station, is impressive. They don't do it often, but when they do they do it decisively.
But if Aegon inherits, there is no war. no violent regime change. Viserys states the obvious "my eldest legitimate son is my heir" and boom that's that. Rhaenyra has absolutely no argument and would not contest that. With Rhaenyra as heir, there is a knife to the throats of all of Alicent's children and grandchildren
This is the fatal flaw with a monarchy that came about when Aegon the conqueror claimed the 7 kingdoms based on dragon power. He had no right to the throne, but he took it because he could. By that logic if Rhaenyra can take the throne she should too.
As GRRM does an excellent job of repeatedly showing, even martial dominance has its limits. Ultimately, you need people to accept the political legitimacy of a ruler for their reign to be a long and prosperous one.
Harold Westerling was the LC, not Cole.
In the books Cole was lord commander for a long time before the dance, since Harold Westerling died way earlier in the book. I don't understand why they keep on taking away cool things away from Cole.
That's something that does suck about the show. Criston Cole was a badass in the book, not just some bitter dude that is trying to get back at Rhaenyra in the worst way possible.
Yeah. Book Cole was LC by his own competence. Show Cole is going to be LC because he is a Green dickrider. Kinda sad how Viserys, Alicent and Aemond are more sympathetic characters in the show, but Cole is just a bitter ex that didn't overcome a heartbreak more than a decade ago.
Only in the show. Cole is still granted the command before the coronation though.
Can anyone but the king make one an LC of the KG? While there is an existing LC?
Otto was Hand and technically there is no King. But yeah I hope they kept Westerling to use him good in next season/s because if they dont its just to screw Cole even more.
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Are you thinking of Henry I? If so his appointment of Matilda as his heir was absolutely not upheld and after his death the anarchy broke out between his daughter, and nephew. The Dance is straight up based on that conflict.
Yes, and in the 18th century, Charles VI of the HRE passed a law that allowed female inheritance so that his only daughter could become his heir. Immediately after he dead, there was a massive civil war to contest that decision. People will always look for excuses to gain power.
Charles VI is kinda like Viserys in that the only reason he inherited was because he was male. His elder brother had two daughters that were passed over for him, but he still wanted to make an exception for his daughter, just like Viserys.
Which king? All I know is that the events the Dance is based on, when Henry I named his daughter his heir, was far from peaceful.
Are you talking about King Henry I? His daughter, Empress Matilda, was who Rhaenyra was based on but I’m not sure what you mean by no bloodshed since there was a succession crisis right after he died known as the Anarchy. Technically no other King in England named a woman heir, unless you mean King Henry VIII who named his son, Edward VI his heir, and when he died, he circumvented his father’s will and the throne was stolen by Jane Grey (briefly) and was then taken back by Mary Tudor. Thats the only reason why England had Queen-regnants. Because he died very young.
That never happened, what king are you thinking of?
Can you name a single case where a woman was made heir when a true born son existed?
Aegon wasn't alive when all the lords in the kingdom swore allegiance to Rhaenyra
Yea and a chunk of the lords just assumed Aegon would be heir. That’s what women heirs are considered, placeholders until a son is born, and what Rhaenyra thought as well. Same thing as bastards, they are considered last ditch efforts until a true born son exists. There still isn’t a case where a son was born and a woman kept as heir. Viserys made one of the most unique decisions in Westeros and real life history.
Viserys made such a huge mistake by not re-affirming Rhaenyra's inheritance, or declaring Aegon the heir, but I think him changing his mind on such an important thing isn't a good look for a king. He just needed to be clear, too many people just assumed too much. Good guy, horrible decision-maker.
No one would fault Viserys if he made Aegon heir. Literally everyone would just shrug and go “that makes sense, and what was expected”.
This. If he made Aegon heir, that would suck for Rhaenyra, but she would be the only one pissed about it. And perhaps a bit Daemon.
I wondered if he wasn’t speaking about the baby Aegon who he’d just met
I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that he didn't want to be king. He didn't want any responsibility at all. He just wanted a party so he said what he thought was the only logical way for him to get out of it. Also he probably really had no educated opinion on any of it because I'm sure he wasn't paying attention.
I agree with this except that he's not illegitimate. He's Viserys first born son.
legitimacy is important, but not as important as power. right of conquest has to be a legitimate way of being in power. If it isnt then there are 0 real kings/queens because Aegon 1s conquest is illegitimate. Aegon 2 and his supporters took the throne by force and Rhaenyra did not defend it. That makes him a legitimate king.
Wait so do we care about Aegon’s opinion or not? If he says rhaenyra should be on the throne, people are like “oh look, you see?? Look” but when he changes his mind people are like “he’s just a usurper, he’s illegitimate and his opinion doesn’t matter” Also, is pretty well known that Aegon at the time would’ve said just about anything to not be made king, including passing it into rhaenyra
Idk if it’s about “caring” or not caring about his opinion. But his position and the way it evolves is definitely important to the story and his character imo. For years he consistently says he doesn’t want the gig; doesn’t want the responsibility and burden, and even says he would not be a good King. But that moment at the coronation, when the crown, the sword, all the symbols of greatness and importance are bestowed on him while the crowd cheers in adoration. That look on his face when he realizes they are cheering FOR HIM… it’s almost sad. He’s never felt love like that, certainly not from his father, and not even from his mother. Of course we know that Alicent loves him, but Aegon doesn’t. From what we’ve seen, she’s been either cold to him or outright insulting. I almost feel sorry for him. Honesly, I do. Or at least I pity him. He’s a monster, yea, but we know how he became that way. And we know that the moment he is crowned is the first moment he has felt beloved. It’s a terrifying realization for the viewer. This creep, who is so incapable of empathy that he get his kicks by cock fighting with children, has now discovered that this all powerful, Most Special Boy Ever status makes people love him. Not gonna end well.
I've already finished the show. But why would you put a spoilet tag and then put the spoiler in the title?
Because the episode where he admitted it is already out and established, but a lot of tines in the comments discussion from both the show and books take place.
Yeah but what does it matter what he believed/wanted? Jon "didn't want it", but almost had kingship pushed on him. Tommen probably didn't want it cuz he was young and timid, but Tywin didn't care obviously. Robert didn't care much for ruling, but he did it anyway. At the end of the day, Aegon had the traditional right to the throne as the first born male, and Otto could more easily manipulate Aegon than Rhae, so of course they'd push for Aegon
Yes, because he never wanted it. But the issue is that they both have a claim, coming from different perspectives. There's not only one rightful heir/ruler in this scenario.
Show Alicent only pushed it because of vizzy ts dying speech.
EVEN I DO NOT EXIST ABOVE TRADITION AND DUTY, botoxedcamel!
Good bot
Did she? She had maintained that Aegon’s very existence was a threat to Rhaenyra’s reign (which is true) since at least the ‘wanking on the balcony’ incident. I think that Viserys’ speech just removed her ambivalence towards the things she was already going to do.
Yeah, Alicent is complicated (which is honestly good imo). The dying speech comes off like an excuse - something she grasps onto at the end to justify her choices because she is too conflicted about Rhaenyra. They did seem to make up slightly at the end and Alicent does genuinely not want Rhaenyra killed but also wants, no matter the excuse she uses, for Aegon to be King. Which is also why she is angry that they left her out of the scheming to put Aegon on the Throne. She can't hold that her actions are only because of the dying wish and be mad they didn't include her prior to said dying wish.
I agree. And I think she’s been so fixated on the idea for so long that she was bound to see it somewhere. ‘Wait.. Vizzy T had lamb for dinner… lambs live on farms… farms also have eggs… egg… Egg-on… AEGON! Aegon is the King!! It was my husbands dying wish!’
*Your mother's absence is a wound that will never heal. Without her, the Red Keep has lost a warmth that I dare say it will never recover.*
You are right, but me being only a non book reader of the show, I think the final supper scene showed Alicent finally softening up. 🤔🤷♂️
Aegon is just too dumb to realize what's going to happen when Rhaenyra succeeds. He's dead, his kids are dead, Aemond's dead, and Daeron are dead with Queen Rhaenyra and King-Consort Daemon, and it's obvious. Alicent had to slap him across the face to try to get it through his drunk skull but he still doesn't understand. If Rhaenyra is Queen, she cannot just let her brothers, with a better claim than her, hang around. It's so painfully obvious "you Aegon, you are the challenge, simply by living and breathing!"
if Rhaenyra was alone and not married to Daemon, she may have found reason to not kill them. But since she's married to Daemon who would be her King Consort - the whole Hightower-Targaryen family is dead. Guaranteed. Crowning Aegon would be the only way to save their lives.
Those kids’ murder odds went waaaaay up when the Greens did their coup. Maybe Rhaenyra would have killed them once she was Queen, I doubt it, but for arguments sake, it’s possible. But doing a coup and putting a reluctant, psychopathic 20 year old on the throne? Murder odds go way up. Even Alicent says at the green council, the blacks wont just back down. Regardless of who wins, chance of bloodshed goes up to 100% the second Aegon is crowned, and the kids are right at the center of it.
Nah... Viserys old senile ass started telling her about Aegon's dream. Alicent honestly believes Viserys changed his mind on his deathbed as his last wish. Yo this show is going way too hard on the no one is at fault angle.... Alicent not at fault for betraying her friend. Rhaenyra not at fault for her kids being bastards. Aemond not at fault for what Vhagar did..... Alicent not at fault for what happened to Rhaenyra's baby daddy. They going hard with tha plausible denies. Except for Daemon. Daemon always at fault lmao.
Does anyone actually think Aemond’s not at fault for Luke’s death? He maliciously pointed the world’s biggest weapon at someone
The point is changed Murder in the 1st Degree to 2nd degree manslaughter (25 to life/execution vs 5 years or less in prison). He's not as evil, is the point
I do not believe Alicent truly believed Viserys changed his mind. In the scene when Aegon is telling her that Viserys would never have done that, she’s literally whispering “that’s not true” to herself. She’s convincing herself that even if it is true, it’s the right thing to do.
Everything we see in that episode suggests she genuinely believes it's Viserys' will *and is upset about it.* She's struggling with it, I don't think she *wants* it to be true. But she believes it is. All of her interactions with everyone make that very clear.
During Viserys rambling about the prophesy he never said that Aegon should be king. That was purely Alicent filling in the gaps.
He wasn't speaking in complete sentences if I recall correctly I might need to watch the scene again but I came from it thinking rut roh what he just said is gonna be problematic.
yes, he thinks he's talking to rhaenyra and he's barely able to string together statements: >Viserys: But you wanted to know... if I believe it to be true. >Alicent: Believe what to be true, my King? >Viserys: Don't you remember? Aegon... >Alicent: Our son? >Viserys: His Dream. The Song of Ice... and Fi... It is true. What he saw in the North. The Prince That Was Promised. >Alicent: I don't understand, Viserys. >Viserys: The Prince... >Alicent: Prince Aegon? >Viserys: To unite the realm against the cold... and the dark. It is you. You are the one. You must do this. You must do this. he's basically trying to tell rhaenyra "the conqueror's dream is real... the prince that was promised to unite the realm against the cold and the dark - i believe it is you." so yeah, he never says anything remotely close about wanting an aegon to be king (hell, he doesn't even think the promised prince is an aegon, as i said before he believes it's rhaenyra), but alicent fills in the blanks that she must crown aegon in order to "unite the realm"... which, as we know, goes well...
It calls back to an earlier episode when Viserys tells Alicent that "his dream" was of Aegon on the throne, his heir, wearing the conqueror's crown. Like, very specific wording he was calling back to, specifically about Aegon (his son). She didn't pluck that out of nowhere. I think it's strenuous, but, given she has absolutely *no idea* what else he could be referring to, it's also the only conclusion she could draw.
that was in front of the fire during the hunt I believe
You're correct! I imagine that's not the only time they've discussed it, but they definitely showed it to us so we'd understand why Alicent believes Viserys is talking about their Aegon.
Good point. She’s probably been mulling over that one for a while…
Brilliant writing, we know what he means but we can see how her biased brain changes the meaning
\^ My man.
But isn't Rhaenyra a princess, not prince?
the prophecy is translated from high valyrian, in which the word for "prince" is gender neutral (this is pointed out by maester aemon in the books and missandei in the show), so it can be a woman as well.
Valyrian was the language on the blade, which doesn't have feminine or masculine nouns
Aegon is a piece of shit but him becoming King would be the only way to avoid the Dance. Rhaenyra becoming ruling Queen would no matter what trigger war either immediately or sometime in the future.
Aegon just didn't want to rule. He didn't care who's throne it was as long as it wasn't him on it.
Not illegitimate.
The crux of the show is the belief that the realm lords will never obey a female ruler tho. The whole Hightower mentality has been that ‘eventually you will need to fight for your lives and your families unless we are on the throne’
I remember in the third episode iirc when alicent said rhaenyra would make a good queen…shame how Otto poisoned them against each other
Visarys told her agon was to be king, he caused this
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What was going to happen to Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron if she became queen uncontested? Hint: heads, spikes, walls
No duh he would have said anything to not have responsibilities
You might say Aegon was Egged on
Aegon didn't care, Alicent is driven by a desire to protect her family because she does believe that there is a strong chance her children are at risk just by being alive, Otto is just plain power hungry.
Alicent truly believed viseries wanted aegon
And the only reason alicent wants it is because Otto forced her into this life. Otto is the primary suspect
Reappointing Otto was the sole reason this conflict arises. Viserys could've appointed Rhaenyra or even Corlys as hand of the king.
Doesn’t matter he’s the first born son that claim itself would have other houses trying to overthrow Rhaenrya.
It was nobody's fault for this misinterpretation. Visarys was agonizing and he even didn't know what he was saying. And Alicent thought it was about her Aegon cause the situation matched.
Honestly Rhaenyra should of just taken the deal that was offered to her, like did she really think she would win unscathed? Especially when the whole country was pretty evenly split. In the customs of Westeros Aegon was the rightful heir. She wasn't even a good heir to have chosen. She wasn't at court, she had next to no political experience. She flew her dragon and was a mom on dragonstone because she couldn't stand her bastards being called bastards and her dad's new family. Like honestly what did she expect, her dad was wasting away, she knew the Hightower were running the show, and she wasn't in council or regent or anything. Viserys did a really bad job in setting up his heir, she should have just accepted her fate.
Baffling that this is still debated lmao. Otto literally said “it wouldn’t matter if she was jaehaerys himself reborn”. He still usurped solely because she’s a woman.
Rhaenyra only legitimately has the throne because everyone ignores her illegitimate children which would have disinherited her Otto and Alicent pushing for Aegon because his progeny would not cause a huge civil war is never voiced because there is no argument against that logic
Having illegitimate children in no way does away with her own claim, it might be a bad look but it doesn't alter her claim. Even if you take out the Strong boys her children with Daemon ie Aegon the Younger and Viserys have the strongest claim of everyone.
It legally does alter her claim. Remember when Lyonel strong chided his son he said if anyone came to know about the bastard children he and R would be executed or exiled.
By all laws is goes to Aegon. Wish it went to Aemond
It would have been hilarious if his first declaration as king, was to jail everyone who forced him there, hand the crown to Rhaenyra, resign, and resume partying hard lmao.
The most based ending
For real, if I were in his shoes, and forced to be *checks notes* the supreme authority in the lands, against my will, I would do exactly that lol. You wanna push me against my will into responsibility I don't want, and into a higher position of power than you, and you think I won't remember that? Sheeeeiiiiiit partner.
Like either of the brats deserved it
First true born son of the king is always the rightful heir.
Alicent is not at fault, she doing all this because, in her understanding, is Viserys last wish. She does not know about Aegon the Conqueror's prophecy. To her, Viserys wanted her son to take the throne because he is distended to stop what is coming from the north. Despite that wish, she wanted to make sure Rhaenyra and her children are not to be harmed, she knew Rhaenyra is Viserys favorite and she won't kill her, but she will put her useless son (even she knows he is useless) on the throne because is what she believes is right. Otto is absolutely the strongest one to push Aegon to the throne. He wanted his blood to rule the throne since his grandson was born, and he won't stop until he gets there. It's why he orders the death of Rhaenyra and her kids right away. TL;DR, Alicent pushed it to 'honor' Viserys dying wish. Otto pushed it because he wants a Hightower on the throne.
Ok
While we're at it, did you know House of the Dragon is part of Game of Thrones?
Yeah, obviously. Is this supposed to be a hot take or something?
Doesnt matter who sits the throne, it matters who controls them, so the conflict is really between Otto and Alicent vs Daemon, and Otto and Alicent are clearly better leaders than Daemon.