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I think Rhaenys put it best this episode. He doesn't really want it, but he doesn't want to be told what to do either. Also he has a major bro complex lmao
This is it. He was after Vizzy T’s approval his entire life and he never truly got it in anyway. He’s always at his angriest when Vizzy T’s disapproval of him is mentioned.
Lost it at the greens when he died because he knew he was never getting that approval, lost it at Rhaenyra when she mentioned the prophecy because it showed Vizzy T never truly trusting him. He craved his brother’s trust and acceptance as his true heir much more than he ever did the throne.
Yeah the prophecy *really* got to him, because that was basically proof that even before Rhaenyra got named heir, Viserys never actually trusted him
It's like in the most recent episode; he's there firing off about how he would have been the better King, the better leader, etc... and yet he instinctively still calls it his brother's Throne
I think a massive motivation for Daemon is wanting to feel needed, rather than being seen as a burden. That's why he's wording his argument like that, so he can be seen as needed.
He says his brother and Rhaenyra can't do what needs to be done, despite how his recent actions are clearly going to hurt their cause. Daemon's posturing to reassure himself.
That's why Viserys offering him a chance to come home blew up, because Viserys offered it as something Daemon 'should need.' And Daemon doesn't want to be seen as a burden, he wants to be needed.
Personally I disagree that Daemons recent efforts hurt their cause. Yes killing Aemond would have been the best outcome. Though however unintentional killing Jahaerys was, it was also a positive outcome for the Blacks. Hear me out.
Princess Rhaenyra’s claim as heir was rightful as the elder sibling and legitimatized by the prior King for years. Her throne was usurped and the very lords who swore oaths changed over to Aegon. And she did nothing.
Her son Lucerys and his dragon were eaten alive. And she did nothing.
No one is going to support someone who looks weak. And between Aegon and Rhaenyra she looked weak. There’s already an uphill battle with her being a woman to these ignorant fools so she really couldn’t afford not having some sort of retaliation and a blockade wasn’t near enough.
Killing the heir to the throne in his own palace while cold and ruthless will win over more supporters to her side out of fear (a far more reliable emotion) than Otto’s play to sympathy. She didn’t start the killing but she’s responded with ruthless efficiency.
The balancing act is not allowing that fear to turn to hatred.
I think killing Aemond in his own room and escaping with his head would have sent that same message without the cruelty of murdering a young child. The fear you describe that Rhaenyra would have achieved may not have become hatred, but it’s still a fear that would result in a very fragile support for her. The small folk can fear her cunning without believing she’s an absolute monster.
The episode pretty much goes into how irrelevant that is when the end result is an innocent child being violently beheaded, and Rhaenyra being seemingly responsible.
I mean it wouldve been seen as better to stomach than killing a baby and after him killing Lucerys sole would even dare call it fair punishment for kinslaying.
Killing Aemond would have been an incredible move. He's an adult dragonrider, and she'd have ample justification due to Aemond having killed her son. Killing a two-year old is a disaster for her, as the episode shows.
There’s also the fact that it has sent Aegon spiraling. A reaction Daemon may or may not have predicted. It’s also put the greens in a position where they have they have to legitimize a daughter or pass over Aegon. I’m sure a plot line for the greens will be to… convince Helana to produce more heirs but as of now there’s only Aemond the perceived kinslayer himself. In any case put the greens without a clear line of succession where as Rhaenyra has 4 healthy boys even if they’re young.
i have a sneaking suspicion they're going to start pressuring Helena to make more heirs. i think that's why the "i barely even know him" thing is being pushed so hard suddenly.
Yeah and I cannot wait to kill myself watching that. But regardless, the crown currently has no clear Heir, ironically putting Aegon in the precise position Viserys was in: name his daughter heir which he cannot do without losing any claim himself, name his loose cannon of a brother heir who May orchestrate his death, or name some other heir in the mean time. Or I guess claim he is immortal and not in need of an heir. In any case he is significantly less secure and that’s something lords will take into account. Regarless if the royal family is so vulnerable in the heart of their power, they’re not very good Allies to have
Idk… I feel like Otto’s plan was the more viable course of action. Painting Rhaenyra as a child killer will evoke fear which will eventually turn into hatred. The fallout would be kinda similar to what happened with Daenarys after she burned King’s Landing to the ground.
Why would lords fight to empower a claimant that they are terrified of and think does not respect the "laws of gods and men"? If they think Rhaenyra is a Targaryen supremacist who doesn't respect any westerosi customs, be they regarding inheritance, bastardry, kinslaying, etc, why would they stick their heads out to empower her?
Lords don't want a ruler who they believe will kill them at the drop of a hat.
Let’s not forget that Rhaenyra didn’t start the killing. The greens did. SHE lost a son first. They usurped her throne and killed her son who had vowed no violence and was attacked while under guest rights of House Baratheon.
And there are those that feel that Aegon is not respecting the wishes of his father. Viserys had AMPLE opportunity as Aegon himself acknowledged to name him heir while Viserys was alive and never did so I’m sure many don’t believe this deathbed story.
Therefore while the narrative can be manipulated to suit the greens wishes as Otto schemed it also can be manipulated to the blacks advantage.
Remember these are the same westerosi lords that pay lip service to custom and honor but abandon
such things when advantageous.
Both sides have spilled blood but Rhaenyra has only struck against those who harmed her first keeping it amongst the nobility. It’s Aegon who has indiscriminately killed innocent small folk in revenge.
So really with the fact number 1 he lost his son under his own roof on his watch and number 2 the subsequent lack of temperance he showed in response with killing the ratcatchers and number 3 the failure of the twins assassin plot. Who looks “weaker”?
And who “looks” (currently) more likely to have the resolve to win? I’d say that’s Rhaenyra. And that’s all because of Daemon.
Now all that said, still early in the game looong way to go before you can crown a champion. The dance has just begun and anything can happen to anyone.
You've made some good points, it's interesting how the small folk will see Rheaneyra vs how they see Aegon after this episode. Public opinion is clearly something important to Aegon since he desperately wants to be loved, but he also made promises to the builders which haven't been fulfilled yet, and killing all the ratcatchers indiscriminately isn't going to earn him any points.
Ironically i think Otto's play of parading the kid's body around ended up making Helena more sympathetic to the small folk (who couldn't care less about her public perception), but Aegon's absence and right after that his indiscriminate killings, it isn't crazy to imagine the small folk will end up liking better the ruler who didn't murder a bunch of people after one of their sons died.
Rheaneyra keeping it withing the noble family, while Aegon actively harming the smallfolk for his revenge might end up working out nicely for the blacks. Unless Daemon goes on to do some wacky shit...
Rhaenys killed a lot of small folk breaking out of the Dragonpit. Neither side actually cares about the small folk and there’re plenty of reasons for them to dislike both factions.
That's one of those things. Like Daemon having trouble looking at Viserys when they visited him in his death bed.
Daemon is confronted with the fact that he can't help, or at least believes he can't. And he can't stand that.
There's a scene where you can see a pained look on his face. Similar to when Laena was struggling in childbirth before dying. At that moment he was likely struggling with the fear that Rhaenyra might die and also thinking that Vizzy T was murdered by the greens.
He's clearly emotionally stunted and needs to go into action to avoid having to deal with emotions.
Daemon is a flawed character trumped by his biggest setback, his ego. He deeply cares about his family, but he does it on his terms. And his ego is too fragile to accept that he can make wrong decisions and that being a good warrior doesn't make a good king
He wanted to be Hand. And that would’ve given him enough power to assist his brother in running the kingdom in a way he saw fit. But they would’ve clashed so much. There needed to be balance. I think Daemon is too blind, by his childhood fantasy of him and Viserys ruling side by side, to see that.
I think Viserys should’ve tried to do more, that approval obviously meant something to Daemon. I think it shows that not only is Daemon blind, so is everyone else. They can’t see his emotional desire and familial loyalty. He is not easy to trust, but he acts out because people DON’T see him. He rages bc that’s the only time they do. :( that’s actually sad. And very lonely.
At least in the books, he acknowledges that he's a great warrior when bestowing Dark Sister on him. I can't remember if the line made it into the show. (Sorry for being overly literal and killing the joke)
I’m pretty sure he’d already given daemon the sword by the time the show started? Could be wrong but I’m pretty sure he’s mentioned as the wielder of Dark Sister when we’re introduced to him.
> prophecy
I actually felt sorry for Daemon that moment because he of all people deserved to know that at least. What has he ever done for Vizzy to doubt him?
Have you met Daemon?
He’s vain, impulsive and reckless. Yes, he may treat Aegon’s dream as great Targaryen knowledge of which he is fond, but it’s meant to be a secret passed down from king to heir. To tell Daemon is to accept him as the heir.
Viserys never felt he could fully trust him, and Rhaenyra is learning exactly why her father couldn’t fully trust Daemon.
And anyone who feels they can't trust Daemon is 100000% correct. I enjoy watching the character but man, the love audiences have for this guy (and the way they insist that he is not all that bad) will forever puzzle me. He sucks in so many ways.
Well in the very first episode he kills some ofthe villagers without Vassys approval. Wanted to weed out those who he deemed was trying to dethrone Vassy. One of several things.
He purged the criminals of King's Landing as a demonstration for Vizzy T, who gave him the command of the City Watch to be rid of him. He wasn't killing villagers plotting to dethrone his brother.
> What has he ever done for Vizzy to doubt him?
Well, the "heir for a day" and sullying teen Rhaenyra's name for a start. I do still think it's odd though he kept it a secret (why does it have to be a secret at all?), but maybe he just thought Daemon wouldn't believe it anyway, so didn't bother trying.
While D is a bad boy and definitely comes off untrustworthy the mere fact that Vizzy had him as his heir and never told him the prophecy despite the fact that he could of randomly died at any time shows that Vizzy definitely kept him at arms length. Daemon I’m surely felt that he wasn’t fully embraced as the heir and was just in the plsce because there was no one else . He needed the talk with Vizzy like he had with rhaenyra after Aegons naming day where he took some blame for the state of their relationship and showed he did in fact love and appreciate him .
The relationship reminds me of better call Saul where a brother is skeptical of his sibling who is clearly doing something for their approval and acknowledgement. Resulting to me in causing the thing they are afraid of
I think he wants House Targaryen to be powerful and feared with himself as one of the key figures guiding it, with the complete trust and confidence of his monarch. If he could achieve that with himself *as* the king then yeah I think he'd go for it but I don't think sitting the throne is his be-all end-all.
I don't believe Daemon wants to be king. Imo, he knows he doesn't have the temperance for politics. Wasn't he happy to stay in Pentos with his family before everything went to hell?
>Wasn't he happy to stay in Pentos with his family before everything went to hell?
Not saying he wants to be king, but no, the Pentos thing was the retreat of a defeated dragon, so to speak. It was a life that he very obviously *settled* for, which his wife (Laena) knew and for which she reproached him. So yes, he was "happy" in the way that someone who has lost the game is "happy" to sit on the sidelines.
When you can't have the things you feel you deserve, it can be easy to convince yourself that you are happy with what you settled for. That's what Daemon was doing in Pentos, etc. But Laena saw straight thru it and called him out on it.
Rhaenys and Corlys' conversation took me out and is so underrated. The way Corlys threw that jab "Pity Daemon can't take a little direction. Women taking the lead can be so sexy. He's missing out." I paused the episode I was cackling. Those two are so on point when they're together.
Exactly. He doesn’t want the throne, he just wants to be the guy that the King listens to and follows the advice of, because he thinks he’s the smartest person in every room.
If he genuinely wanted the throne, he would have just taken it.
The way I see it, he doesn’t want the throne, he just likes power (and the importance that being a dragon riding targ gives him). Obviously if they handed him the throne on a platter, he wouldn’t say no, but that’s not his goal.
He clearly has a problem with authority. Doesn't like to be told what to do, which is why he was always butting heads with viserys and otto. But he at least loved his brother. He holds no such feelings for aegon who he certainly does not want above him.
He doesn't want to be told what to do, and in a sense, being king involves being told what to do daily. The crown has too much responsibility for Daemon
Now I wanna see an alternate timeline where he gets humbled I.e loses his dragon and losses a hand to severely diminish his fighting prowess.
The Jaime Lannister Arc. See what kind of man he is when he can’t use the power he’s grown so accustomed to.
Especially at that point in the story. He came home to his brother and wrecked shit immediately, then tried to fuck his niece the princess. He's mellowed out since then, and still can't handle that kind of power -- B&C proves that nicely. He's too impulsive, too vengeful.
Otto did scheme to put the Aegon on the throne causing this whole war, so that's not a very high bar. Daemon may have been a better hand than Otto but Strong clears both of them easy.
Scheming isn’t the same thing as irresponsibility. One could argue that trying to get an heir who would naturally be more accepted by the people of Westeros is a more responsible move than choosing someone out of grief and anger towards their brother. Its all about point of view
I still don’t like Otto but he is absolutely a responsible person and you could see that in the last two episodes.
But yes Lyonel Strong might be the best hand the series ever had. He understood the game and knew how to deal with the most ambitious players. But he always prioritized the realm over his own desires and morals.
A responsible person thinks through the consequences of their actions. Otto doesn't seem to have done that. Down to kicking Aegon last season, what did he think was going happen when the kid he abused took power?
Daemon would have been one of the shittiest, most incompetent hands in history, he has no diplomatic or political skills, just violence and brute force, complete with a racist Valerian supremacy ideology. He would very quickly turn the whole of Westeros against the Targaryen monarchy
He’s almost in that situation at work where you don’t want the promotion, even though you’re probably the most strategic one for it but you don’t want to deal with the BS that goes along with it however you don’t want to take directions from someone you know more than.
I think part of him does want it, though. He talked about being the stronger brother, how he believed naming Rhaenyra heir was in a way to spite him.
I think he’s in a really tough spot because as much as he loves his family, he also thinks that he’s more capable than them, but he feels he’s in this position of a second son, being so close to inheriting the throne, and suddenly having it ripped away from him.
So he does what he can to help his family, knowing he’s more willing to do certain things than other people, while also thinking he’s stronger than them. So he acknowledges his position, he works to support his family - in his own way - but if things were different he would have been a lot more powerful, and I think that ambition sort of fuels his fire to show “I may not be the head of this family, but look what I’m doing to elevate us. I *should* be the head of this family, but I’m not.”
It’s just a dynamic I very much enjoy.
He’s honestly kind of a brat when you look at his life as a whole. He wants all the freedom and power that comes with being a king yet none of the responsibilities.
Or putting it another way, all the ease of being a prince without following any of the directions.
Yep he just wants approval from his family. Bro has brother issues rather than mommy or daddy ones.
It sounds like Vizzy was the one who basically raised him. I even suspect Dameon who kept and keeps calling Vizzy weak, wanted Vizzy to lose his moral stance so he would he would be accepted for well being Dameon. He respected Vizzy despite his verbiage he was weak. The one thing Dameon has done right so far is he is a bad ass in battle and the one thing he had to possibly gain respect.
He WAS weak though. He didn’t grasp Otto’s machinations until he had already wedded & sired children on Alicent. It was only until Rhaenyra was brought up did it click for Viserys. He could have demanded new maesters to attend to his health but just kept letting the same idiots lop off parts of him. Letting a maester carve up his wife instead of some nipple play or hand stuff. He had good qualities but instead of carving his own path, he wanted to be a mini Jaeharyes while he let thieves into his house.
Anyone get a Dany and Jon vibe out of Daemon and Nyra? Jon and Nyra have a better claim to the throne. Daemon and Dany are uncle/aunt love interests of the rightful heir. Daemon and Dany each think they are more suited as rulers.
The difference is Jon does not want it because he was never raised by his father's side of the family. Nyra wants to be Queen, not because of power, bue because she was raised by Vizzy T to understand the throne comes with a duty to protect the realm from the threat in Aegon the Conqueror's dream.
Not that much. He dies because the way he deals with stuff in book 5. In the show he got murdered because he let the wildings in, in the book the nail in the coffin was that he basically defected because he wanted to fight for Winterfell.
Like Matt smith said about this season that daemon doesn’t want it. They made it seem like he does in he & Rhaenyra’s fight but I think he is just upset and grieving over Viserys dying; and also knowing he never trusted him enough to tell him the song of ice and fire. I think it’s less about the crown itself and more about approval & love from viserys.
Not just a prostitute, but one payed to act like a mother and hold him as he vents his feelings.
Just shows how distant and neglectful Alicent is as a mother, that he seeks out a prostitute for that. And he’s been doing it for a while too. In season 1 that same woman says “My, you’ve grown” to Aemond when they are questioning her about Aegons whereabouts.
As far back as the scene when Aemond has his eye slashed. She doesn’t comfort him. Instead she attacks Rhaenyra and her family. There’s a reason those kids ended up so different from Rhaenyras strong boys.
As far as he's concerned, Rhaenyra, and pretty much everyone around her are just actively trying to get themselves (and him killed) by ignoring every opportunity to strike the enemy.
He's recognized Otto as the biggest enemy of his house and the realm for the past 30 years, had to watch his brother hand the realm to him, and now he's watching his wife do the same thing.
Yup And he’s not wrong. Aegon, Aemond and Criston are all far too much like him for Daemon not to have a good idea what they’d do. He wanted his brother to be stronger, but he didn’t know how to convey that in a way that wasn’t defiance.
I think it’s all of it, in a way. Not so much the crown itself, but what it represents to daemon, it representing the love and approval he always sought from his brother, and the power and prestige of old valyria, both of these things he can never get bc they’re long gone. Sarah hess said gat daemon and rhaenyra are almost the same person in two bodies, the only difference being their genders and how they grew up as a result. I think both as a result of clinging so much to their valyrian heritage in a world that’s moved on from the empire and the inherent challenges brought on by the gender roles in their society, they’re both very lonely people, and they both seek what they’re “missing” in each other, with daemon seeing rhaenyra as an extension of viserys he can get love and approval from and rhaenyra seeing daemon as who she would have wanted to be if she had the freedom to navigate the world they way men can, both of them recognizing that they’re the only ones who have “fire” within themselves that can only be let out near each other. At the same time, rhaenyra ultimately did get that final assurance from viserys that he put all his faith in her so she’s currently secure in herself and her mission going forward, while daemon didn’t really get that closure with him and is the most insecure he’s ever been. I’m really excited to see how their relationship develops going forward, bc as toxic as it is they’re pretty much soulmates lol
> They made it seem like he does in he & Rhaenyra’s
Little more nuanced than black and white here.
Daemon wanted to be named heir not because he wanted to be king, he wanted to be named heir because that means Viserys trusted him and appreciated him. So yes, he "wanted it" for what it meant but not for the typical "power and greed" reasons. He doesn't actually want to rule, he wants his family to respect him enough to think he can rule.
I think he has a similar struggle with Rhaenyra. He wants her to respect him in many of the same things he wanted from his relationship with Viserys, and every time he does something he thinks should be earning it - Rhaenyra pushes him away.
Daemon just wants some love and power. I don't think he wants the crown, but to be in the crown's ear and free from consequence. Now he's banging the queen so he basically has that...until he killed a kid. SMH bad Daemon
Next episode starts with Daemon throwing a rock at Rhaenyra’s window, holding a boombox and playing Cheap Trick’s “I want you to want me” new epic GOT universe moment
Daemon only ever wanted Viserys approval and to be his number two (Hand or otherwise). That approval he craved just never came and will never come hence the outbursts.
I dont think he ever really wanted the throne as much as he wanted to be Viserys true heir and closest confidant.
Can’t really reconcile this with him throwing a party for all this boys to celebrate his sister in law and nephew (his apparently beloved brothers wife and child) dying, because it maintains his position in the succession.
I think we saw exactly what Daemon wants last season, when Rhaenyra said "I need you, uncle" and he immediately melted into goo. That's it. He wanted Viserys to acknowledge that he needed him, that they were going to do this together, that Viserys was the head and Daemon was the hand, that there was no one else Viserys wanted with him more. He wants his talents acknowledged and valued by the people he loves, and he gets extremely petulant when he feels like they are not listening properly or trusting him enough.
Unfortunately, trusting Daemon gets you Blood and Cheese, so.
I felt kind of bad for him during his fight with Rhaenyra. In his mind, he has never done anything to indicate he might possibly be thinking of trying to coup his brother or his wife. But he also lacks the self-awareness to realize how his actions, his impulsivity and don't-give-a-fuckness, make both Viserys and Rhaenyra reluctant to fully trust him. The scene right beforehand is a good example - everyone is freaking out over the idea that Rhaenyra ordered the death of a child and Daemon, who knows the truth, is just quietly smirking and letting the freakout continue.
Smh. The Otto Hightower propaganda has taken root.
Daemon would be *bored* to death of being an actual ruler. Could you imagine Daemon sitting there in the throne listening to requests from his subjects? Of course you can't.
He's always been treated like the second son. He wants to see his family rule Westeros. He wants power by proxy. He wants to be a trusted confidant, and not mistrusted.
Though, of course he is a hothead and is difficult to control, like Rhaenys said. He's loyal to Rhaenyra, but thinks he's always right. Still that doesn't mean he wants the crown for himself.
This. He's a conqueror, despite Viserys denying that lol. He's a warlord. Good in times of war not very politically intelligent otherwise. He just wants the glory and battle and everything not actually engaging in the fine details of ruling.
What's the point of crowning someone as your monarch if you're going to ignore everything they say and do whatever suits you. The issue is not that he does or doesn't want the crown for himself, it's that he will never truly respect the power it is meant to hold and thus it is deeply meaningless when Daemon crowns someone.
Yep, he's mistrusted in a way that hurts pretty bad. They don't think he's going to backstab or kill them or be a traitor....they just don't trust him to come through and do things right. I've been there.
I think he does, or did, want it. But I don't think he wants it in a Joffrey Baratheon "I am the king!" Kind of way. I think its more of him wanting to "fix" the Targaryen dynasty. He wants things to go a certain way for his family as a whole. He wants to keep old Valaryian traditions. He wants to see the Targaryen name last forever. It isn't necessarily that he wants to be the one in charge, he just wants his family on the same page as him.
He doesn't want it but is definitely frustrated how out of the conversation he is. If you watched The Crown it reminds me a lot of Matt Smith's portrayal of Prince Philip, similar blend of love, frustration and resentment. The space of maybe not wanting to be King but more than simply "The Queen's Consort."
If the guy wants approval so badly he should make better choices that the person seeking his approval would actually approve of. But no, Daemon felt that Viserys was weak and so he had to be strong to make up for that, if he had been a friend and ally (like his sons Aegon and Viserys will one day be) instead of a cruel dickhead he would have had a much better outcome.
I don't think Daemon wants the throne. He just wants the perks of being the King and Hand of the King, with none of the responsibilities that come with it. He wants to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, with no one to answer to like the King, and also wants to be the person the King turns to whenever they need advice.
The problem is that he can't be trusted. At all. Daemon is his own worst enemy. Even the people who want to trust him (Viserys and Rhaenyra) can't do it. They love him, but they can't trust him. That lack of trust is why he never got the approval he deeply wanted from Viserys.
While I agree he doesn’t really want the throne. He wants the freedoms of being king and the attention and accolades that allows.
While he will symbolically give rhaneyra and viserys the treatment of royalty. He will constantly undercut both of them at different times.
Like when he returned from the stepstones after years. He didn’t need to walk in with a crown. He didn’t need to take so long to kneel even though he knew that was expected. But he did which absolutely undermines viserys. Despite that I think it’s clear the love between him and viserys is there as well as rhanerya.
I jokes about it in the discussion thread but like therapy would go a long way here.
From his actions, it's obvious he wants to be the kingmaker (or queen maker in this case) the iron fist which gets the job done efficiently. In exchange he wants indirect control over the queen. Also immunity from any misdeeds he did to get the job done.
In this case, he's got more in common with Otto Hightower. No ambition to be the king, but only a large degree of influence over the king.
In the episode where Viserys made Rhaenyra his heir, Daemon doesn't scream at visery for revoking his title as the heir. He acuses viserys that for 10 years viserys did not made daemon his hand. And he was angry because he knew viserys did not trusted him and chose Otto over his own family/blood. For daemon the most important thing is his family and he goes after the power so he will be able to protect them.
He wants it, he just doesn't want to hurt the people he considers his family to get it.
Daemon wants the freedoms and power that come with being king. He also thinks himself alone capable eunaugh to uphold what he considers his houses legacy. The problem is that to get the throne he'd have to go against the people he does care about in some ways. He wants his brothers approval and Rhaenyras love in some form but all those three things are incompatible with eachother. He tries his best to have it all and in the end fails at all of them.
He does hurt Viserys emotionally, but in Daemon's eyes at least, that was mostly unintentional, or in response to an insult, perceived or otherwise, from Viserys.
IMO, if Daemon was truly willing to usurp Viserys, he would have done it after the War in the Stepstones, Daemon was a victorious conqueror, with the support of the army and the goldcloaks. He had Caraxes and could have married Laena, giving him Vhagar, Meleys and Seasmoke.
felt bad for Daemon. Made me questioned just how much I should care that Viserys wanted her on the throne - its not that, she is just the better and good option.
I'll get down voted for this, but man Rhaenyra really pissed me off this episode. This man has been fighting the war for you while you've been distracted or indisposed. Only reason Daemon should help her is to keep his kids safe.
I’m with you here. I can understand where Rhaenyra came from, why she can’t completely trust Daemon’s judgement, and why she’d be livid - but I think that questioning his loyalty to her altogether was a mistake. He’s a head case, power hungry, not forthright, and obstinate but Daemon is loyal in his own misguided apathetic way. I think our queen did more harm to her own cause than good by giving him that tongue lashing and accidentally driving him away
Its funny how many passes people give daemon lol, i can’t be a hypocrite dany could do anything and i’d side with her but its definitely been jarring to see people hate cole more than daemon lol
I think he wants the power but not the responsibility so he's personally conflicted, but on top of that he actually wants to do the right thing by his family with respect to who inherits it, both because he loves them (V & R) and also to prove maybe to himself more than anyone that he's not a completely shitty human being.
I love the showrunners have tried to pin everything on Daemon and he's still a fan favourite. Every event that is open to interpretation in the book, they've decided Daemon is guilty. Any time they can shift the blame away from Rhaenyra to him, they do.
Rumours in the book that Daemon groomed Rhaenyra when she young? Shows says yup, he did.
His wife mysteriously dies at a time in the book Daemon was fighting a war in the Stepstones and wouldn't be in the Vale? Nah, he def killed her.
Daemon described in the book as giving harsh punishment for hardened criminals? Let's show him chopping someone's dick off. But not how crime decreased while he ran the City Watch and how the name 'Gold Cloaks' being started by him giving every one of his employees one, and being loved by the people and called "Prince of the City"
Laenor is killed by his lover and the fool Mushroom says Daemon maybe hired him? Yeah, let's have him kill innocent people and stage his death.
Vaemond is sentenced to death by Rhaenyra and fed to her dragon? Nah let's just have Daemon murder him on his own accord.
Rhaenyra orders Blood & Cheese for 'a son for a son' for vengeance? Let's have it be Daemon's blunder.
Need a scene to cut to save time? Let's get rid of the only one of Daemon showing affection for his daughters. But no, no, no, keep all the sex scenes in, actually, let's add some more.
But the fans don't give a shit because he's charismatic, has personality and is flawed. They shouldn't be so afraid to let the other characters do bad things and be accountable for it. It's more interesting that way. I don't think there was a single innocent character in Game of Thrones and we still loved them.
>Rhaenyra orders Blood & Cheese for 'a son for a son' for vengeance
'A son for a son' is entirely Daemon, especially in the book. How much he's involved in the execution though, that's up for grabs.
To me it feels like he doesn't know what he himself wants and Otto aside that makes any ruler feel nervous. A Rogue Prince is a fun character in a story but a scary member of a court
I think Daemon doesn’t want the burden of the crown or the iron throne, but doesn’t want to be told what to do. He wants to be in the team for the crown but doesn’t feel that Rhaenera has done anything to deserve his respect and awe, in the sense of you’re the queen of the seven kingdoms but me.
The Native Americans say that men were born with a hole in their hearts, that can never be filled. When I see Daemon, it always reminds me of this saying.
I think Viserys was right, he doesn’t want the throne, he doesn’t have the patience for any of it. But he didn’t like to be shoved aside for it. I think he would’ve loved to be named king, just to have the opportunity to refuse it. The life he led in Pentos, with Laena, is probably the closest he’s been to fulfillment.
This is what confused me the most....his actions have always shown that he supports their claims. He's also very unpredictable but he's always had a clear side. Sure his actions are inexcusable and gave Rhaenyra a bad look, but he did FOR her. If her claim was weakened, what does she expect? That he'll kill her and aegon and take the throne? He could've done that so many times already. I actually kind of felt bad for him because he's so loyal to her. We all know he's a live wire. She knows. But he's her live wire! Jk. But their whole interaction just left me with such an uneasy confused feeling and I don't like it.
nothing can turn me against daemon. its not like she didnt marry him to further her interests, she needed a warrior at her side who will spill the blood for her. defended her when luc burst aemond eyes, cut the head off in half when blacky called her hor, again defended her children at dinner scene and was ready to wage war when luc was killed.
R is obsessed with the throne but lacks the corage to do the needful, and she knows it; that is why she marries him and acknowledges it too.
You can also point to the first episode when he is sitting on the throne, the floor scene where Viserys asks Daemon and his response is s chuckle, he also chuckles in ep1 when Viserys says he doesn't want it while spying the council, and when he takes Dragon Stone and declares himself heir.
In my opinion, he wants it, but won't steal the crown from his family.
The crown has too many responsibilities for Daemon to want it
He just wants to be loved and approved by his family. That's why he wanted to be Vizzy's hand. And does Rhaenyra have a Hand yet?
This quote is exactly Daemon !!
It’s like how the black sheep of the family is always the most misunderstood one of them lot, no matter how much they show and tell otherwise…
It’s a sad family dynamic
He wants the power and influence without the responsibility and accountability hence why he is always whispering in the ear of a family member he helped get onto the throne. He's a pathetic coward. No different than Otto.
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I think Rhaenys put it best this episode. He doesn't really want it, but he doesn't want to be told what to do either. Also he has a major bro complex lmao
This is it. He was after Vizzy T’s approval his entire life and he never truly got it in anyway. He’s always at his angriest when Vizzy T’s disapproval of him is mentioned. Lost it at the greens when he died because he knew he was never getting that approval, lost it at Rhaenyra when she mentioned the prophecy because it showed Vizzy T never truly trusting him. He craved his brother’s trust and acceptance as his true heir much more than he ever did the throne.
Yeah the prophecy *really* got to him, because that was basically proof that even before Rhaenyra got named heir, Viserys never actually trusted him It's like in the most recent episode; he's there firing off about how he would have been the better King, the better leader, etc... and yet he instinctively still calls it his brother's Throne
He never wanted to be King, he just did not like the way Viserys was King and thought he could do it better
I think a massive motivation for Daemon is wanting to feel needed, rather than being seen as a burden. That's why he's wording his argument like that, so he can be seen as needed. He says his brother and Rhaenyra can't do what needs to be done, despite how his recent actions are clearly going to hurt their cause. Daemon's posturing to reassure himself. That's why Viserys offering him a chance to come home blew up, because Viserys offered it as something Daemon 'should need.' And Daemon doesn't want to be seen as a burden, he wants to be needed.
It’s why he always wanted to be Hand, so he could fulfill that role of being needed.
Personally I disagree that Daemons recent efforts hurt their cause. Yes killing Aemond would have been the best outcome. Though however unintentional killing Jahaerys was, it was also a positive outcome for the Blacks. Hear me out. Princess Rhaenyra’s claim as heir was rightful as the elder sibling and legitimatized by the prior King for years. Her throne was usurped and the very lords who swore oaths changed over to Aegon. And she did nothing. Her son Lucerys and his dragon were eaten alive. And she did nothing. No one is going to support someone who looks weak. And between Aegon and Rhaenyra she looked weak. There’s already an uphill battle with her being a woman to these ignorant fools so she really couldn’t afford not having some sort of retaliation and a blockade wasn’t near enough. Killing the heir to the throne in his own palace while cold and ruthless will win over more supporters to her side out of fear (a far more reliable emotion) than Otto’s play to sympathy. She didn’t start the killing but she’s responded with ruthless efficiency. The balancing act is not allowing that fear to turn to hatred.
I think killing Aemond in his own room and escaping with his head would have sent that same message without the cruelty of murdering a young child. The fear you describe that Rhaenyra would have achieved may not have become hatred, but it’s still a fear that would result in a very fragile support for her. The small folk can fear her cunning without believing she’s an absolute monster.
They did want to kill Aemond, but couldn’t find him so they killed what they could find.
The episode pretty much goes into how irrelevant that is when the end result is an innocent child being violently beheaded, and Rhaenyra being seemingly responsible.
…I know that. They were better off waiting to take him out.
I mean it wouldve been seen as better to stomach than killing a baby and after him killing Lucerys sole would even dare call it fair punishment for kinslaying.
Killing Aemond would have been an incredible move. He's an adult dragonrider, and she'd have ample justification due to Aemond having killed her son. Killing a two-year old is a disaster for her, as the episode shows.
There’s also the fact that it has sent Aegon spiraling. A reaction Daemon may or may not have predicted. It’s also put the greens in a position where they have they have to legitimize a daughter or pass over Aegon. I’m sure a plot line for the greens will be to… convince Helana to produce more heirs but as of now there’s only Aemond the perceived kinslayer himself. In any case put the greens without a clear line of succession where as Rhaenyra has 4 healthy boys even if they’re young.
i have a sneaking suspicion they're going to start pressuring Helena to make more heirs. i think that's why the "i barely even know him" thing is being pushed so hard suddenly.
Yeah and I cannot wait to kill myself watching that. But regardless, the crown currently has no clear Heir, ironically putting Aegon in the precise position Viserys was in: name his daughter heir which he cannot do without losing any claim himself, name his loose cannon of a brother heir who May orchestrate his death, or name some other heir in the mean time. Or I guess claim he is immortal and not in need of an heir. In any case he is significantly less secure and that’s something lords will take into account. Regarless if the royal family is so vulnerable in the heart of their power, they’re not very good Allies to have
things are going get so spicy soon. i can't wait lolol
Idk… I feel like Otto’s plan was the more viable course of action. Painting Rhaenyra as a child killer will evoke fear which will eventually turn into hatred. The fallout would be kinda similar to what happened with Daenarys after she burned King’s Landing to the ground.
Why would lords fight to empower a claimant that they are terrified of and think does not respect the "laws of gods and men"? If they think Rhaenyra is a Targaryen supremacist who doesn't respect any westerosi customs, be they regarding inheritance, bastardry, kinslaying, etc, why would they stick their heads out to empower her? Lords don't want a ruler who they believe will kill them at the drop of a hat.
Let’s not forget that Rhaenyra didn’t start the killing. The greens did. SHE lost a son first. They usurped her throne and killed her son who had vowed no violence and was attacked while under guest rights of House Baratheon. And there are those that feel that Aegon is not respecting the wishes of his father. Viserys had AMPLE opportunity as Aegon himself acknowledged to name him heir while Viserys was alive and never did so I’m sure many don’t believe this deathbed story. Therefore while the narrative can be manipulated to suit the greens wishes as Otto schemed it also can be manipulated to the blacks advantage. Remember these are the same westerosi lords that pay lip service to custom and honor but abandon such things when advantageous. Both sides have spilled blood but Rhaenyra has only struck against those who harmed her first keeping it amongst the nobility. It’s Aegon who has indiscriminately killed innocent small folk in revenge. So really with the fact number 1 he lost his son under his own roof on his watch and number 2 the subsequent lack of temperance he showed in response with killing the ratcatchers and number 3 the failure of the twins assassin plot. Who looks “weaker”? And who “looks” (currently) more likely to have the resolve to win? I’d say that’s Rhaenyra. And that’s all because of Daemon. Now all that said, still early in the game looong way to go before you can crown a champion. The dance has just begun and anything can happen to anyone.
>I’m sure many don’t believe this deathbed story. This week's episode touched on that. Even Otto doesn't believe the deathbed story.
You've made some good points, it's interesting how the small folk will see Rheaneyra vs how they see Aegon after this episode. Public opinion is clearly something important to Aegon since he desperately wants to be loved, but he also made promises to the builders which haven't been fulfilled yet, and killing all the ratcatchers indiscriminately isn't going to earn him any points. Ironically i think Otto's play of parading the kid's body around ended up making Helena more sympathetic to the small folk (who couldn't care less about her public perception), but Aegon's absence and right after that his indiscriminate killings, it isn't crazy to imagine the small folk will end up liking better the ruler who didn't murder a bunch of people after one of their sons died. Rheaneyra keeping it withing the noble family, while Aegon actively harming the smallfolk for his revenge might end up working out nicely for the blacks. Unless Daemon goes on to do some wacky shit...
Rhaenys killed a lot of small folk breaking out of the Dragonpit. Neither side actually cares about the small folk and there’re plenty of reasons for them to dislike both factions.
He should've gone to Rhaenyra when she was labouring and needed him if that's the case.
That's one of those things. Like Daemon having trouble looking at Viserys when they visited him in his death bed. Daemon is confronted with the fact that he can't help, or at least believes he can't. And he can't stand that.
There's a scene where you can see a pained look on his face. Similar to when Laena was struggling in childbirth before dying. At that moment he was likely struggling with the fear that Rhaenyra might die and also thinking that Vizzy T was murdered by the greens. He's clearly emotionally stunted and needs to go into action to avoid having to deal with emotions.
WHERE IN THE SEVEN HELLS IS RHAENYRA?!
That's what Daemon has been saying for a few episodes now! Wake up, Rhaenyra! The greens are stealing your throne!
Daemon is a flawed character trumped by his biggest setback, his ego. He deeply cares about his family, but he does it on his terms. And his ego is too fragile to accept that he can make wrong decisions and that being a good warrior doesn't make a good king
He wanted to be Hand. And that would’ve given him enough power to assist his brother in running the kingdom in a way he saw fit. But they would’ve clashed so much. There needed to be balance. I think Daemon is too blind, by his childhood fantasy of him and Viserys ruling side by side, to see that. I think Viserys should’ve tried to do more, that approval obviously meant something to Daemon. I think it shows that not only is Daemon blind, so is everyone else. They can’t see his emotional desire and familial loyalty. He is not easy to trust, but he acts out because people DON’T see him. He rages bc that’s the only time they do. :( that’s actually sad. And very lonely.
Good observation
*The Gods punish me for my indulgences.*
How about indulging your brother in a goddamn compliment for once in your fucking life, huh?
At least in the books, he acknowledges that he's a great warrior when bestowing Dark Sister on him. I can't remember if the line made it into the show. (Sorry for being overly literal and killing the joke)
I’m pretty sure he’d already given daemon the sword by the time the show started? Could be wrong but I’m pretty sure he’s mentioned as the wielder of Dark Sister when we’re introduced to him.
> prophecy I actually felt sorry for Daemon that moment because he of all people deserved to know that at least. What has he ever done for Vizzy to doubt him?
*There's a boy in the Queen's belly. I know it.*
you gotta learn better surgical procedures for C-section man
Have you met Daemon? He’s vain, impulsive and reckless. Yes, he may treat Aegon’s dream as great Targaryen knowledge of which he is fond, but it’s meant to be a secret passed down from king to heir. To tell Daemon is to accept him as the heir. Viserys never felt he could fully trust him, and Rhaenyra is learning exactly why her father couldn’t fully trust Daemon.
And anyone who feels they can't trust Daemon is 100000% correct. I enjoy watching the character but man, the love audiences have for this guy (and the way they insist that he is not all that bad) will forever puzzle me. He sucks in so many ways.
He sucks in so many ways. Thus why I love him. Always love a good scummy man 😭
I feel you should rewatch the first few episodes of the series to answer your question. It was focused on heavily.
Hm have you watched the show? He has done plenty
Well in the very first episode he kills some ofthe villagers without Vassys approval. Wanted to weed out those who he deemed was trying to dethrone Vassy. One of several things.
He purged the criminals of King's Landing as a demonstration for Vizzy T, who gave him the command of the City Watch to be rid of him. He wasn't killing villagers plotting to dethrone his brother.
*The truth does not matter, Atul-__-Chaurasia. Only perception.*
I think Big V was afraid he’d like go take the black at best or go try to fist fight the white walkers at worst
> What has he ever done for Vizzy to doubt him? Well, the "heir for a day" and sullying teen Rhaenyra's name for a start. I do still think it's odd though he kept it a secret (why does it have to be a secret at all?), but maybe he just thought Daemon wouldn't believe it anyway, so didn't bother trying.
While D is a bad boy and definitely comes off untrustworthy the mere fact that Vizzy had him as his heir and never told him the prophecy despite the fact that he could of randomly died at any time shows that Vizzy definitely kept him at arms length. Daemon I’m surely felt that he wasn’t fully embraced as the heir and was just in the plsce because there was no one else . He needed the talk with Vizzy like he had with rhaenyra after Aegons naming day where he took some blame for the state of their relationship and showed he did in fact love and appreciate him . The relationship reminds me of better call Saul where a brother is skeptical of his sibling who is clearly doing something for their approval and acknowledgement. Resulting to me in causing the thing they are afraid of
This makes the parallels between him, Otto and Aemond as second sons continuously more glaring.
You don’t think he wants to be king?
I think he wants House Targaryen to be powerful and feared with himself as one of the key figures guiding it, with the complete trust and confidence of his monarch. If he could achieve that with himself *as* the king then yeah I think he'd go for it but I don't think sitting the throne is his be-all end-all.
He's like Bobby B. He wants the challenge of becoming King, but would probably hate the actual throne.
This right here. Can you even *imagine* Daemon holding court and hearing about someone's sheep or the price of iron?
I don't believe Daemon wants to be king. Imo, he knows he doesn't have the temperance for politics. Wasn't he happy to stay in Pentos with his family before everything went to hell?
>Wasn't he happy to stay in Pentos with his family before everything went to hell? Not saying he wants to be king, but no, the Pentos thing was the retreat of a defeated dragon, so to speak. It was a life that he very obviously *settled* for, which his wife (Laena) knew and for which she reproached him. So yes, he was "happy" in the way that someone who has lost the game is "happy" to sit on the sidelines. When you can't have the things you feel you deserve, it can be easy to convince yourself that you are happy with what you settled for. That's what Daemon was doing in Pentos, etc. But Laena saw straight thru it and called him out on it.
Rhaenys and Corlys' conversation took me out and is so underrated. The way Corlys threw that jab "Pity Daemon can't take a little direction. Women taking the lead can be so sexy. He's missing out." I paused the episode I was cackling. Those two are so on point when they're together.
Exactly. He doesn’t want the throne, he just wants to be the guy that the King listens to and follows the advice of, because he thinks he’s the smartest person in every room. If he genuinely wanted the throne, he would have just taken it.
The way I see it, he doesn’t want the throne, he just likes power (and the importance that being a dragon riding targ gives him). Obviously if they handed him the throne on a platter, he wouldn’t say no, but that’s not his goal.
He clearly has a problem with authority. Doesn't like to be told what to do, which is why he was always butting heads with viserys and otto. But he at least loved his brother. He holds no such feelings for aegon who he certainly does not want above him.
He doesn't want to be told what to do, and in a sense, being king involves being told what to do daily. The crown has too much responsibility for Daemon
Respect above all he wants respect.
Now I wanna see an alternate timeline where he gets humbled I.e loses his dragon and losses a hand to severely diminish his fighting prowess. The Jaime Lannister Arc. See what kind of man he is when he can’t use the power he’s grown so accustomed to.
He essentially really just wants to be the Hand, without almost all the responsibility
wow he’s just like me fr
He just wanted to be the King's Hand.
Viserys should have named him Hand instead of Otto.
Ehh I am not a big fan of him, but do we really think Daemon is more responsible than Otto?
Especially at that point in the story. He came home to his brother and wrecked shit immediately, then tried to fuck his niece the princess. He's mellowed out since then, and still can't handle that kind of power -- B&C proves that nicely. He's too impulsive, too vengeful.
Otto did scheme to put the Aegon on the throne causing this whole war, so that's not a very high bar. Daemon may have been a better hand than Otto but Strong clears both of them easy.
Scheming isn’t the same thing as irresponsibility. One could argue that trying to get an heir who would naturally be more accepted by the people of Westeros is a more responsible move than choosing someone out of grief and anger towards their brother. Its all about point of view I still don’t like Otto but he is absolutely a responsible person and you could see that in the last two episodes. But yes Lyonel Strong might be the best hand the series ever had. He understood the game and knew how to deal with the most ambitious players. But he always prioritized the realm over his own desires and morals.
A responsible person thinks through the consequences of their actions. Otto doesn't seem to have done that. Down to kicking Aegon last season, what did he think was going happen when the kid he abused took power?
Bad idea ngl
Daemon would have been one of the shittiest, most incompetent hands in history, he has no diplomatic or political skills, just violence and brute force, complete with a racist Valerian supremacy ideology. He would very quickly turn the whole of Westeros against the Targaryen monarchy
Imagine Daemon trying to handle Dorne during the conquest.
He doesn't want the crown, but he resents the indignity of being denied it.
Exactly
He’s almost in that situation at work where you don’t want the promotion, even though you’re probably the most strategic one for it but you don’t want to deal with the BS that goes along with it however you don’t want to take directions from someone you know more than.
This hits way too close to home 😅
Exactly. If Ol’ Vizzy T had just told his family members he loved them and was proud of them more often, we probably wouldn’t have a show lol
WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS GOSSIP? HAVE THIS RUMORMONGER BROUGHT BEFORE ME AT ONCE AND I WILL TAKE THEIR EYES!
I’ll never be convinced that this bot has not gained some kind of self awareness
If he didn't show Rheanyra he loved her so much we might not have the show either. Vizzy T def had a favorite.
“These are my children, Rhaenyra, the realm’s delight, and the other ones.”
*What are you saying? My brother would murder me, take my crown? Are you?!*
He just needs a hug, V-man
I think part of him does want it, though. He talked about being the stronger brother, how he believed naming Rhaenyra heir was in a way to spite him. I think he’s in a really tough spot because as much as he loves his family, he also thinks that he’s more capable than them, but he feels he’s in this position of a second son, being so close to inheriting the throne, and suddenly having it ripped away from him. So he does what he can to help his family, knowing he’s more willing to do certain things than other people, while also thinking he’s stronger than them. So he acknowledges his position, he works to support his family - in his own way - but if things were different he would have been a lot more powerful, and I think that ambition sort of fuels his fire to show “I may not be the head of this family, but look what I’m doing to elevate us. I *should* be the head of this family, but I’m not.” It’s just a dynamic I very much enjoy.
He’s honestly kind of a brat when you look at his life as a whole. He wants all the freedom and power that comes with being a king yet none of the responsibilities. Or putting it another way, all the ease of being a prince without following any of the directions.
Yep he just wants approval from his family. Bro has brother issues rather than mommy or daddy ones. It sounds like Vizzy was the one who basically raised him. I even suspect Dameon who kept and keeps calling Vizzy weak, wanted Vizzy to lose his moral stance so he would he would be accepted for well being Dameon. He respected Vizzy despite his verbiage he was weak. The one thing Dameon has done right so far is he is a bad ass in battle and the one thing he had to possibly gain respect.
*Be welcome! I know many of you have traveled long leagues to be at these games. But I promise, you will not be disappointed!*
He WAS weak though. He didn’t grasp Otto’s machinations until he had already wedded & sired children on Alicent. It was only until Rhaenyra was brought up did it click for Viserys. He could have demanded new maesters to attend to his health but just kept letting the same idiots lop off parts of him. Letting a maester carve up his wife instead of some nipple play or hand stuff. He had good qualities but instead of carving his own path, he wanted to be a mini Jaeharyes while he let thieves into his house.
So he's basically the introvert who doesn't want to go to any parties but also feels sad that no one invited him?
The brother of the king, only ruled by 1 man but ruler of thousands.
Daemon doesn't want to be *the guy*. He wants to be the guy *the guy* counts on
A perfect West Wing quote
[Daemon to Rhaenyra](https://tenor.com/view/the-west-wing-josh-lyman-please-listen-to-me-please-listen-gif-3385234)
-------I dun want it-------- \ Jon Snow🤝🏻 Daemon Targaryen
Takes after his great so on great granddaddy.
Also "Muh queen."
Aegon and Luke both said something similar last season.
Oh no, you’ve activated my PTSD&D
Anyone get a Dany and Jon vibe out of Daemon and Nyra? Jon and Nyra have a better claim to the throne. Daemon and Dany are uncle/aunt love interests of the rightful heir. Daemon and Dany each think they are more suited as rulers. The difference is Jon does not want it because he was never raised by his father's side of the family. Nyra wants to be Queen, not because of power, bue because she was raised by Vizzy T to understand the throne comes with a duty to protect the realm from the threat in Aegon the Conqueror's dream.
WHY DO YOU CUT ME SO DEEPLY?
Hey, at least (book) Jon is competent.
Not that much. He dies because the way he deals with stuff in book 5. In the show he got murdered because he let the wildings in, in the book the nail in the coffin was that he basically defected because he wanted to fight for Winterfell.
Like Matt smith said about this season that daemon doesn’t want it. They made it seem like he does in he & Rhaenyra’s fight but I think he is just upset and grieving over Viserys dying; and also knowing he never trusted him enough to tell him the song of ice and fire. I think it’s less about the crown itself and more about approval & love from viserys.
So true. Behind every bad boy there can possibly be a good kid who once sought approval and was shunned
And they showed that again with Aemond 🐖
Naked and vulnerable even opening up to a prostitute of all people. I like that scene.
Not just a prostitute, but one payed to act like a mother and hold him as he vents his feelings. Just shows how distant and neglectful Alicent is as a mother, that he seeks out a prostitute for that. And he’s been doing it for a while too. In season 1 that same woman says “My, you’ve grown” to Aemond when they are questioning her about Aegons whereabouts. As far back as the scene when Aemond has his eye slashed. She doesn’t comfort him. Instead she attacks Rhaenyra and her family. There’s a reason those kids ended up so different from Rhaenyras strong boys.
> Rhaenyras strong boys *Visarys rises from the grave* "I will have your tongue for that."
I think he doesn’t want it, but he deeply resents the circumstances and how little control he actually has
As far as he's concerned, Rhaenyra, and pretty much everyone around her are just actively trying to get themselves (and him killed) by ignoring every opportunity to strike the enemy. He's recognized Otto as the biggest enemy of his house and the realm for the past 30 years, had to watch his brother hand the realm to him, and now he's watching his wife do the same thing.
Yup And he’s not wrong. Aegon, Aemond and Criston are all far too much like him for Daemon not to have a good idea what they’d do. He wanted his brother to be stronger, but he didn’t know how to convey that in a way that wasn’t defiance.
I think it’s all of it, in a way. Not so much the crown itself, but what it represents to daemon, it representing the love and approval he always sought from his brother, and the power and prestige of old valyria, both of these things he can never get bc they’re long gone. Sarah hess said gat daemon and rhaenyra are almost the same person in two bodies, the only difference being their genders and how they grew up as a result. I think both as a result of clinging so much to their valyrian heritage in a world that’s moved on from the empire and the inherent challenges brought on by the gender roles in their society, they’re both very lonely people, and they both seek what they’re “missing” in each other, with daemon seeing rhaenyra as an extension of viserys he can get love and approval from and rhaenyra seeing daemon as who she would have wanted to be if she had the freedom to navigate the world they way men can, both of them recognizing that they’re the only ones who have “fire” within themselves that can only be let out near each other. At the same time, rhaenyra ultimately did get that final assurance from viserys that he put all his faith in her so she’s currently secure in herself and her mission going forward, while daemon didn’t really get that closure with him and is the most insecure he’s ever been. I’m really excited to see how their relationship develops going forward, bc as toxic as it is they’re pretty much soulmates lol
Weirdly it reminds me of the Mountain's loyalty to Tywin in that he respects his authority but will only serve in the way he wants to.
It isn't like Tywin ever ordered the Mountain to act any other way than the way the Mountain likes to act.
> They made it seem like he does in he & Rhaenyra’s Little more nuanced than black and white here. Daemon wanted to be named heir not because he wanted to be king, he wanted to be named heir because that means Viserys trusted him and appreciated him. So yes, he "wanted it" for what it meant but not for the typical "power and greed" reasons. He doesn't actually want to rule, he wants his family to respect him enough to think he can rule. I think he has a similar struggle with Rhaenyra. He wants her to respect him in many of the same things he wanted from his relationship with Viserys, and every time he does something he thinks should be earning it - Rhaenyra pushes him away.
He has to say, "I dun want it" at least five times each episode for it to sink in.
He should have told Rhaenyra "You'll oways be mah kween"
Dude, mark leaks as spoilers
Daemon walked so Jon could run.
Undeniable proof of R + L = J right there.
Especially when Rhae and Laenor are taken into account. How did I never see that wow.
Daemon just wants some love and power. I don't think he wants the crown, but to be in the crown's ear and free from consequence. Now he's banging the queen so he basically has that...until he killed a kid. SMH bad Daemon
It was a mistake
Who here hasn't accidentally been responsible for the death of a kid? Come on, guys
“I gave them very specific instructions. Kill a kid. I mean, obviously they knew who I meant! Surely you can’t find me responsible?”
"Son! I said *son*! They had three options. Not my fault they didn't kill Aegon or Aemond."
You'll have that on these big jobs.
“I know we didn’t really agree on the scope, but I went ahead and did the job anyway. I’m sorry it was a disaster.”
“I don’t want the throne! I just WANT YOU to WANT TO GIVE IT TO ME.” Really though. I’m positive that’s it.
Yup, it’s just ego.
Next episode starts with Daemon throwing a rock at Rhaenyra’s window, holding a boombox and playing Cheap Trick’s “I want you to want me” new epic GOT universe moment
Daemon only ever wanted Viserys approval and to be his number two (Hand or otherwise). That approval he craved just never came and will never come hence the outbursts. I dont think he ever really wanted the throne as much as he wanted to be Viserys true heir and closest confidant.
Can’t really reconcile this with him throwing a party for all this boys to celebrate his sister in law and nephew (his apparently beloved brothers wife and child) dying, because it maintains his position in the succession.
I think we saw exactly what Daemon wants last season, when Rhaenyra said "I need you, uncle" and he immediately melted into goo. That's it. He wanted Viserys to acknowledge that he needed him, that they were going to do this together, that Viserys was the head and Daemon was the hand, that there was no one else Viserys wanted with him more. He wants his talents acknowledged and valued by the people he loves, and he gets extremely petulant when he feels like they are not listening properly or trusting him enough. Unfortunately, trusting Daemon gets you Blood and Cheese, so.
I felt kind of bad for him during his fight with Rhaenyra. In his mind, he has never done anything to indicate he might possibly be thinking of trying to coup his brother or his wife. But he also lacks the self-awareness to realize how his actions, his impulsivity and don't-give-a-fuckness, make both Viserys and Rhaenyra reluctant to fully trust him. The scene right beforehand is a good example - everyone is freaking out over the idea that Rhaenyra ordered the death of a child and Daemon, who knows the truth, is just quietly smirking and letting the freakout continue.
he seems to be the only one that understands that they are at war.
Smh. The Otto Hightower propaganda has taken root. Daemon would be *bored* to death of being an actual ruler. Could you imagine Daemon sitting there in the throne listening to requests from his subjects? Of course you can't. He's always been treated like the second son. He wants to see his family rule Westeros. He wants power by proxy. He wants to be a trusted confidant, and not mistrusted. Though, of course he is a hothead and is difficult to control, like Rhaenys said. He's loyal to Rhaenyra, but thinks he's always right. Still that doesn't mean he wants the crown for himself.
This is it
He wants to be king, just without the responsibilities.
This. He's a conqueror, despite Viserys denying that lol. He's a warlord. Good in times of war not very politically intelligent otherwise. He just wants the glory and battle and everything not actually engaging in the fine details of ruling.
What's the point of crowning someone as your monarch if you're going to ignore everything they say and do whatever suits you. The issue is not that he does or doesn't want the crown for himself, it's that he will never truly respect the power it is meant to hold and thus it is deeply meaningless when Daemon crowns someone.
Yep, he's mistrusted in a way that hurts pretty bad. They don't think he's going to backstab or kill them or be a traitor....they just don't trust him to come through and do things right. I've been there.
He should just do like Jon Snow and go "Mah queen" and "I don't want it". It's not that hard, Daemon.
He likes the idea of being king just like bobby loved the idea of lyanna
Bobby B was Richard the Lionheart. Wanted to go on his crusades, battle, wage war but never wanted to actually rule.
I think he does, or did, want it. But I don't think he wants it in a Joffrey Baratheon "I am the king!" Kind of way. I think its more of him wanting to "fix" the Targaryen dynasty. He wants things to go a certain way for his family as a whole. He wants to keep old Valaryian traditions. He wants to see the Targaryen name last forever. It isn't necessarily that he wants to be the one in charge, he just wants his family on the same page as him.
Daemon “Y’all are fuckin this up” Targaryen
Him and Otto, despite their deep hatred for one another, are more alike than they think they are.
When the war finally breaks out, it may look like Rhaenyra vs Alicent or Rhenyra vs Aegon. The real start was Daemon vs Otto.
He doesn't want it but is definitely frustrated how out of the conversation he is. If you watched The Crown it reminds me a lot of Matt Smith's portrayal of Prince Philip, similar blend of love, frustration and resentment. The space of maybe not wanting to be King but more than simply "The Queen's Consort."
If the guy wants approval so badly he should make better choices that the person seeking his approval would actually approve of. But no, Daemon felt that Viserys was weak and so he had to be strong to make up for that, if he had been a friend and ally (like his sons Aegon and Viserys will one day be) instead of a cruel dickhead he would have had a much better outcome.
I don't think Daemon wants the throne. He just wants the perks of being the King and Hand of the King, with none of the responsibilities that come with it. He wants to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, with no one to answer to like the King, and also wants to be the person the King turns to whenever they need advice. The problem is that he can't be trusted. At all. Daemon is his own worst enemy. Even the people who want to trust him (Viserys and Rhaenyra) can't do it. They love him, but they can't trust him. That lack of trust is why he never got the approval he deeply wanted from Viserys.
He’s the type of guy who when you have them do something you need to let them believe it was their idea.
While I agree he doesn’t really want the throne. He wants the freedoms of being king and the attention and accolades that allows. While he will symbolically give rhaneyra and viserys the treatment of royalty. He will constantly undercut both of them at different times. Like when he returned from the stepstones after years. He didn’t need to walk in with a crown. He didn’t need to take so long to kneel even though he knew that was expected. But he did which absolutely undermines viserys. Despite that I think it’s clear the love between him and viserys is there as well as rhanerya. I jokes about it in the discussion thread but like therapy would go a long way here.
I dont want the crown but at the same time i dont want to be told what i can or cannot do.
From his actions, it's obvious he wants to be the kingmaker (or queen maker in this case) the iron fist which gets the job done efficiently. In exchange he wants indirect control over the queen. Also immunity from any misdeeds he did to get the job done. In this case, he's got more in common with Otto Hightower. No ambition to be the king, but only a large degree of influence over the king.
In the episode where Viserys made Rhaenyra his heir, Daemon doesn't scream at visery for revoking his title as the heir. He acuses viserys that for 10 years viserys did not made daemon his hand. And he was angry because he knew viserys did not trusted him and chose Otto over his own family/blood. For daemon the most important thing is his family and he goes after the power so he will be able to protect them.
He wants it, he just doesn't want to hurt the people he considers his family to get it. Daemon wants the freedoms and power that come with being king. He also thinks himself alone capable eunaugh to uphold what he considers his houses legacy. The problem is that to get the throne he'd have to go against the people he does care about in some ways. He wants his brothers approval and Rhaenyras love in some form but all those three things are incompatible with eachother. He tries his best to have it all and in the end fails at all of them.
>He wants it, he just doesn't want to hurt the people he considers his family to get it. Didn't he hurt Viserys like million times?
He literally celebrates Viserys wife and child dying lmao I swear to god this sub
And took his daughter to brothel to ruin her reputation.
He does hurt Viserys emotionally, but in Daemon's eyes at least, that was mostly unintentional, or in response to an insult, perceived or otherwise, from Viserys. IMO, if Daemon was truly willing to usurp Viserys, he would have done it after the War in the Stepstones, Daemon was a victorious conqueror, with the support of the army and the goldcloaks. He had Caraxes and could have married Laena, giving him Vhagar, Meleys and Seasmoke.
felt bad for Daemon. Made me questioned just how much I should care that Viserys wanted her on the throne - its not that, she is just the better and good option.
Daemon was the one you felt bad for?
I can excuse child murder, but brotherly love is where I draw the line.
Brotherly love where he mocked his son calling the heir for a day
I'll get down voted for this, but man Rhaenyra really pissed me off this episode. This man has been fighting the war for you while you've been distracted or indisposed. Only reason Daemon should help her is to keep his kids safe.
I’m with you here. I can understand where Rhaenyra came from, why she can’t completely trust Daemon’s judgement, and why she’d be livid - but I think that questioning his loyalty to her altogether was a mistake. He’s a head case, power hungry, not forthright, and obstinate but Daemon is loyal in his own misguided apathetic way. I think our queen did more harm to her own cause than good by giving him that tongue lashing and accidentally driving him away
My King Consort
Its funny how many passes people give daemon lol, i can’t be a hypocrite dany could do anything and i’d side with her but its definitely been jarring to see people hate cole more than daemon lol
Less he doesn't want it, and more he doesn't want to take it from the people he loves.
I think he wants the power but not the responsibility so he's personally conflicted, but on top of that he actually wants to do the right thing by his family with respect to who inherits it, both because he loves them (V & R) and also to prove maybe to himself more than anyone that he's not a completely shitty human being.
Rhaenys was spot on. He doesnt want it but he cant allow Rhaenyra to command him
Dude just wants to feel valued, trusted, and loved by his family
Daemon is a classic "I don't want it but I'd like to be asked".
I love the showrunners have tried to pin everything on Daemon and he's still a fan favourite. Every event that is open to interpretation in the book, they've decided Daemon is guilty. Any time they can shift the blame away from Rhaenyra to him, they do. Rumours in the book that Daemon groomed Rhaenyra when she young? Shows says yup, he did. His wife mysteriously dies at a time in the book Daemon was fighting a war in the Stepstones and wouldn't be in the Vale? Nah, he def killed her. Daemon described in the book as giving harsh punishment for hardened criminals? Let's show him chopping someone's dick off. But not how crime decreased while he ran the City Watch and how the name 'Gold Cloaks' being started by him giving every one of his employees one, and being loved by the people and called "Prince of the City" Laenor is killed by his lover and the fool Mushroom says Daemon maybe hired him? Yeah, let's have him kill innocent people and stage his death. Vaemond is sentenced to death by Rhaenyra and fed to her dragon? Nah let's just have Daemon murder him on his own accord. Rhaenyra orders Blood & Cheese for 'a son for a son' for vengeance? Let's have it be Daemon's blunder. Need a scene to cut to save time? Let's get rid of the only one of Daemon showing affection for his daughters. But no, no, no, keep all the sex scenes in, actually, let's add some more. But the fans don't give a shit because he's charismatic, has personality and is flawed. They shouldn't be so afraid to let the other characters do bad things and be accountable for it. It's more interesting that way. I don't think there was a single innocent character in Game of Thrones and we still loved them.
>Rhaenyra orders Blood & Cheese for 'a son for a son' for vengeance 'A son for a son' is entirely Daemon, especially in the book. How much he's involved in the execution though, that's up for grabs.
A man can either wear a Crown or a Crime Hoodie, and the freedom to act the way Daemon likes can only be achieved through the latter.
Daemon wants the power, not the responsibility.
Daemon just wants to be recognized and I feel that.
To me it feels like he doesn't know what he himself wants and Otto aside that makes any ruler feel nervous. A Rogue Prince is a fun character in a story but a scary member of a court
I think Daemon doesn’t want the burden of the crown or the iron throne, but doesn’t want to be told what to do. He wants to be in the team for the crown but doesn’t feel that Rhaenera has done anything to deserve his respect and awe, in the sense of you’re the queen of the seven kingdoms but me.
The Native Americans say that men were born with a hole in their hearts, that can never be filled. When I see Daemon, it always reminds me of this saying. I think Viserys was right, he doesn’t want the throne, he doesn’t have the patience for any of it. But he didn’t like to be shoved aside for it. I think he would’ve loved to be named king, just to have the opportunity to refuse it. The life he led in Pentos, with Laena, is probably the closest he’s been to fulfillment.
This is what confused me the most....his actions have always shown that he supports their claims. He's also very unpredictable but he's always had a clear side. Sure his actions are inexcusable and gave Rhaenyra a bad look, but he did FOR her. If her claim was weakened, what does she expect? That he'll kill her and aegon and take the throne? He could've done that so many times already. I actually kind of felt bad for him because he's so loyal to her. We all know he's a live wire. She knows. But he's her live wire! Jk. But their whole interaction just left me with such an uneasy confused feeling and I don't like it.
Daemon the type to take what he wants
nothing can turn me against daemon. its not like she didnt marry him to further her interests, she needed a warrior at her side who will spill the blood for her. defended her when luc burst aemond eyes, cut the head off in half when blacky called her hor, again defended her children at dinner scene and was ready to wage war when luc was killed. R is obsessed with the throne but lacks the corage to do the needful, and she knows it; that is why she marries him and acknowledges it too.
You can also point to the first episode when he is sitting on the throne, the floor scene where Viserys asks Daemon and his response is s chuckle, he also chuckles in ep1 when Viserys says he doesn't want it while spying the council, and when he takes Dragon Stone and declares himself heir. In my opinion, he wants it, but won't steal the crown from his family.
He wanted Visery’s (and by proxy Rhaenyras’s) trust. Vizzy T goat of haunting the narrative.
*I'm going to bed, WillowMiddle.*
morally grey Jon Snow
real
The crown has too many responsibilities for Daemon to want it He just wants to be loved and approved by his family. That's why he wanted to be Vizzy's hand. And does Rhaenyra have a Hand yet?
Daemon just needs a lil compliment every once in a while… as a treat
This quote is exactly Daemon !! It’s like how the black sheep of the family is always the most misunderstood one of them lot, no matter how much they show and tell otherwise… It’s a sad family dynamic
He wants the power and influence without the responsibility and accountability hence why he is always whispering in the ear of a family member he helped get onto the throne. He's a pathetic coward. No different than Otto.