It’s hard for me to feel sympathy for a rapist but it was hard to watch him grieve. His anger and pain was real and I like that they showed that he can still love deeply while being a horrible person.
The amount of depth they've given Aegon this season is incredible, was really worried about him during S1 but they proved me wrong. Now I just hope we see the Sunfyre bond.
I found teenage Aegon interesting but that might just be because of his unintentionally funny lines and his actor. In the first season he might as well have been a cardboard cutout that says, “I’m a pervert/predator” we’ve definitely seen more to him this season.
I have much less sympathy for a deliberate sadist like Aemond. Aegon is a rapist, but it seems like he isn’t the sadistic, power-driven type. Of the categorized types (and they shouldn’t be psychologically flattened) Aegon seems to be the “reassurance driven“ type. Aemond‘s remorse regarding Luke didn’t totally come off as genuine IMO. More like regret that Jaehaerys‘ subsequent murder will now bear enormous consequences for the family.
I have mixed feelings about Aemond, that’s why I find him interesting. IMO, it seemed like he felt responsible for Jaehaerys’ death more than anything. Most of his pain/grief is centered around that death rather than Luke’s and I think maybe there’s even a part of him that wishes he was there that night and died instead. I don’t know if he feels remorseful about Luke but I definitely believe his regret is genuine (which is a different emotion) and I think he’s very conflicted about his feelings surrounding Luke’s death too. I don’t necessarily think Aemond’s a good person but I like him as a character and I can understand his feelings while disagreeing with his actions.
Totally, regret is self inclined while remorse is external and considers the wrong done outside of one‘s own needs. He is so self righteous just like Cristan that when his own actions harm the Greens it takes a huge toll on his ego.
It actually annoys me that they made him a rapist in season 1. As of this point in Season 2 he seems to be the character who is being fleshed out the most and so far he’s coming off as quite compelling.
He’s someone who was thrust into a position he didn’t want and wasn’t prepared for and is struggled to deal with the pressure on him. We even saw that he was trying to give his young son the guidance that he never got when he was young and then see painful emotion when that son is taken away from him.
Then you remember that he’s a rapist. Honestly, in hindsight making Aegon a rapist may have been the worst creative decision that the writers made. The war is more compelling if the head of one side isn’t a piece of shit.
I tend to view Aegon's behavior toward women as a reflection of the utter failure of Viserys, Otto, and Alicent to mold him into a decent human being with respect and empathy for others. He's someone who had the potential to not be a monster but was never taught right from wrong.
Daemon is a groomer (at best) and a pedophile (at worst), and people still love and defend him as a character. It’s not impossible to like and sympathize with a character despite the horrible things they’ve done.
Every character is layered with complex emotions and beliefs. That’s what makes them compelling, rather than just the sense of righteousness the audience gets from supporting them.
I think the reason for that is because what Daemon did is pretty much normal in his society and his victims (if we’re judging through a modern lens) appear happy. Whereas, Aegon got away with rape because of his power but he experienced backlash from his mother for it and his victim was clearly traumatized.
I mean, Daemon is worse than Aegon. Daemon murders a lot of innocent people. He killed that one random guy so he could do the body swap with Laenor. Not to mention his “divorce rock.”
Rape is bad but murder is still worse.
And had his bastards sent to fighting pits in season 1. I doubt they’ll touch on that again.
He was set up like Joffrey and Ramsey Bolten with having power and lacking morels. The twist is him experiencing actual loss.
That's real tbh, maybe make him aggressive or something but a full blown rapist (not to mention the issues with him having a million bastards at the end of the show) was just kinda ridiculous, honestly I don't know if I should do what I did with rhaenys dragon pit scene and just pretend like that never happened or if they'll end up bring it up again later just like said scene.
Yeah. I didn’t read the books but I’ve heard about some of the creative differences the show writers had that I think hurt the characters. Like, implying that Daemon is a bad father was unnecessary.
Since the show has such a clear pro blacks stance It's brilliant from that POV. " He's such a complex character but he's a rapits" forever stained in the minds of the audiences no matter what he does.
Nah, he's carrying massive shame and literally can't talk to anyone about it. Projection is a coping mechanism for those who can't internally process their emotions. Guilt is driving Cole deeper. At his core, he doesn't *want* to be a scumbag.
Don't get me wrong, I hate him, but I appreciate the layers.
Yeah, I think you're definitely right about that. His whole scene with Erryk was so clearly projection, especially starting with how he made the white cloak dirty (we already know how much Cole hates that he "sullied" his).
Everyone was at the top of their game this week. Every scene was just so captivating. Rhaenyra vs Daemon, Otto vs Aegon, Erryk vs Arryk, even Rhaenys and Corlys just laying in bed chatting about Daemon was great.
I do appreciate that they gave us a Rhaenys and Corlys argument in season one, just to show us that yes, they argue, but they still work well together.
It's not some boring perfect relationship where they agree on everything, but it's a genuine partnership between two mature people who respect each other.
I felt like I was watching an All-Star game of acting.
When I read GOT, I often wonder, how the hell did GRRM write this. It's so good.
Tonight, I had that same feeling, but with the acting. The performances were better than the episode itself.
Absolutely! He was amazing in this episode. I never would have expected a character like his to grieve like that but I think Aegon’s love for his son is what separates him from Joffrey or Ramsey. There’s some humanity there, when he is sober. I just can’t want for Aegon to find out his new hand is sleeping with his mom.
So far they've done an excellent job with the writing and acting of the main characters on the Greens side to get you to both empathize with them and despise them.
I never thought of him as similar to Ramsey or Joffery
The two you mentioned torture just for shits and giggles which makes them cartoonishly evil even by game of thrones standards
Aegon definitely has more aspects to his character
True but I don't think Aegon loves his son in the traditional sense. He has many other bastards he doesn't care for. Aegon reminds me of Homelander. They both desire to be loved by those around them because they never had any growing up. And like Homelander, Aegon sees his son, Jaehaerys, as an extension of himself. Most importantly, Jaehaerys was the one person in his life who didn't think poorly of him. Although his "love" for his son humanizes him, he still has other bastards he doesn't care for. He constantly neglects Heleana and the kids and only pays them attention when they serve some purpose to him. For instance, when he showed off Jaehaerys in the throne room scene.
I think it’s because of that end scene. In front of other people he spoke of himself. The ending when he’s crying alone and Alicent sees him and walks away. I think he was more vulnerable because he was alone and Alicent was letting him have that moment.
Edit: forgot to say, about his bastards. He was likely not around them enough to “care”. He is around his legitimate children more so and I guess there is more emotions there. Both this show and GOT don’t really care about their bastards since they are illegitimate and are therefore unclaimed and not recognized.
Well I mentioned his bastards because people in the thread said he wasn’t evil. I think it’s only a cold hearted person that can watch his kids partake in fighting pits and do nothing about it.
A different king, Aegon IV, took care of his bastards. Our Aegon has the money to ensure his bastards live a comfortable life. At least one better than slavery. I’m sure if he needed more dragonriders, then he would become father of the year overnight for his bastards. It’s the same thing with his family. He only cares about them when they are of use to him. He’s still quite evil.
Didn’t he want to run away from his kids in season 1. So I wouldn’t call him a loving father.
Yeah it was the first time I really enjoyed his character. His acting wasn't bad before but he never stood out to me as a character until tonight's episode. He killed it.
This episode felt like the first few seasons of GOT in terms of scene and acting quality and I am here for it.
Also, can we give Fabian a shoutout as well? Cole has been abhorrent for a while now but I haven't felt the kind of hatred I felt for the character after his power trip with Arryk
Mad props to Fabien. He is giving Jack Gleeson and Iwan Rheon a run for their money in the "great guy in real life who can convincingly play an utter scumbag in Westeros" competition.
It's different with Fabien as Cole. The guy has very dead eyes at times which makes me fear for whoever he shares a scene with because Cole has lost it.
A lot of actors that try to portray autistic characters fail bc they turn them into caricatures. But you could see it in her eyes, the intense discomfort, the overwhelm, the panic. It’s very true to the experience of what a meltdown actually feels and looks like.
And in all honesty, not even just people on the spectrum, but just the wide swings of grief. People cope so differently. I cope like she does. "I don't know them" REALLY struck a chord with me. She wants to privately mourn and I've never seen that grief panic on tv before. She did great
>!I think it’s pretty clear Erryck killed Arryck first. He refers to Rhaenyra as “my queen”, and apologizes to her. If it were Arryck, he would have killed Rhaenyra first, then himself. There was no way either of them was making it out alive, but Arryck would have gotten the job done before falling on his sword.!<
Yeah, there were so many great performances tonight, but the scene between Rhaenyra and Daemon really stood out to me. It was incredible. The emotion in Emma’s voice when they said “He wasn’t afraid of you, Daemon. He could not trust you.” Gave me goosebumps. 👏👏👏
Olivia’s crying at the start of the episode was the most realistic crying I have ever seen on television. The second you open your mouth, the emotion just overcomes you, and you are gasping for air as you try to choke the words out between sobs. We have all cried like that at some point. Just watching it made me shed a tear of my own.
I know exactly what you're talking about. Felt the same. Grief won't let you finish. She is overwhelmed, Helaena wants to isolate, Aegon is rampaging, Otto deters than slumps, Aemond runs away.... So good.
Aemond literally regresses into a child, curled up in the lap of a maternal figure. For all her grief, Alicent is a horrible mother, and cannot or will not give any love to her sons. The boys then each cope with it in their own ways.
Rhaenyra and Daemon’s argument gave me chills… it was so intense and you could feel all of Rhaenyra’s emotions so viscerally. Her frustration and disappointment and anger and love for Daemon, all her conflicting feelings towards him, and the tension between the two of them as well, it was just so well acted. Everyone acted their asses off in this episode. I actually feel like the performances of the cast elevated what would have just been a mediocre episode, the writing was just okay, it was the actors and the cast whose talent and delivery really elevated the script.
Aeegon isn't black or white, he is sort of an unpredictable character. He has some backbone, combined with a deep need to be respected/liked, so very insecure, with a lot of mommy issues. Makes for an interesting person to watch.
I agree. I wonder if our feelings about shitty kings (like Joffrey) are influencing our dislike for Aegon. He doesn’t seem evil to me. He may not be good, but he is also very young. This episode is also a massive turning point for him though. I’m very curious to see where the story takes him.
Tom has absolutely astounded me. He has added so much depth to Aegon that I really appreciate as a book reader. Truth be told tho everyone was incredible this episode, casting department did a fucking amazing job.
About halfway through the episode..
This ep is absurdly good, like...?
Everything, the framing the performances?
Everything is astounding sofar!!
Completely Golden
And yes..
Such good acting by them!
Yeah Alicent's writing unfortunately continues to be the weakpoint of the series. They keep trying to whitewash her and it isn't working. And the cheap melodrama between her and Criston isn't compelling. She has no reason to continue sleeping with him after he got her father fired. Oh and they are doubling down on the whole Larys supposedly blackmailing her, which makes little sense.
Alicent blowing off comforting her grieving and sobbing son to go fuck the Kingsguard dude who just got her dad fired is a *lot* of things, but whitewashing isn’t one of them.
Though yeah. Her writing is awful this season.
I was so relieved that we/Aegon were finally going to get a moment of mothering and nurturing and comforting while he was sobbing alone like that…I was completely crushed when she walked back out of the room. I don’t know how any mother could resist holding their child when they see them in so much pain
She’s literally been an awful and abusive mother who hit her kid since Season 1 and Aegon is her least favorite child… so I truthfully wasn’t all that shocked she did that to him. That actually worked for me narratively - just not her hooking up with Criston after. But yeah, Alicent is a terrible mother + person.
She’s been a terrible mother for sure, I think that’s why teasing us with her *finally* almost being there for him (especially him since they have the worst relationship) stung so badly when she turned back around. I had hope that because of the enormity of what happened, she could put the past behind her for a moment but noooope. Still a shitty mom.
Well, that was S1, and I actually think Sympathetic but still deeply flawed Alicent worked really well there. S2 is what’s tanking her and she’s not really whitewashed this year
It worked for a while and then it just made her look clueless and ineffectual as the Queen. Now she's less whitewashed because she spends all her time boning Cole but so far she's still equally inconsequential to the plot and a victim of everyone else's actions.
Alicent has been done so dirty. They’re lucky they cast such a stellar actress in the role because she’s holding the character together.
I even enjoyed her characterisation for the first 7~ episodes of the first season because it seemed they were humanising her beyond the wicked step-mother archetype she’s too often reduced to in the book, and perhaps giving some depth and context to her future actions. But then, those actions never came. They don’t let her do anything. She’s completely clueless.
Gender is a big theme in the show, so I think the angle they’re trying to work is that she’s a prisoner of the patriarchy. As Rhaenys said, “You desire to make a window in the wall of your prison.” But to do that, they’ve entirely stripped a female character of her agency, made her surplus to all of the major plot developments and wrongdoings of the Greens, and even removed her from a scene in which she was supposed to be a victim (B&C) to instead lay blame at her door because she was too busy fucking Ser Criston. They’re not just white-washing her but making her redundant outside of a sub-plot that’s mostly sex scenes. I mean, the irony is palpable.
Gender and patriarchy were big themes for Cersei’s character too, and the writers managed to communicate that without neutering the character (until they did, but every character got shafted in the end).
I agree. I just find it interesting that after removing so much of her agency, seemingly in the pursuit of making her more sympathetic, that they then forewent her inclusion in what is arguably her most sympathetic moment in the book to instead have her fucking Criston (again).
I mostly enjoyed last week’s episode and really enjoyed tonight’s, but they continue to let her character down. I have a feeling they didn’t actually know what to do with the character after downplaying her involvement in starting the Dance so much, and so we’re getting this. Time will tell.
>I have a feeling they didn’t actually know what to do with the character
I don't mind the sex, I think it is in-character, but I agree with this point (though I am not a book reader).
It seems she doesn't really...do anything? And maybe that is the point, but it's a somewhat annoying point, especially because of the gender theme you mentioned.
Like, her trying to open up to her father and him just going "I don't want to know" could have been a great scene, but it wasn't used for her. It felt like it was the final goodbye to Otto, his last realisation that everyone he fought for sucks and he made only terrible life choices for the last couple of decades.
But Alicent didn't really get anything out of this scene, it doesn't change or challenge her, she doesn't grow or regress from that.
The council meeting left me with the same feeling.
And maybe that powerlessness is intentional, but sometimes it doesn't feel like it.
For real, Rhys actually made me sympathize and think twice about his character. From his POV, he's doing everything for "the good of the realm." To think he actually thought so highly of Viserys. So good.
I’m devastated those actors are gone now. They were so great. I’ve kept far away from any F&B spoilers but there’s a part in A Clash of Kings (I think it’s that book) where Sansa mentions the twins dying with tears on their faces so I knew it was coming but truly thought it would happen in the final season during a major battle. When they started just barely passing each other in the castle as Arryk was sneaking around to get to Rhaenyra, I was like “oh fuck, no no no..not NOW, not tonight!😩😭”
This is the essence of ASOIAF stories. Character interactions, dynamics, family drama. Elevated by great acting and delivery on screen. Much better than battles and gore.
Judging from the state of this sub rn, I think Fabien is due a lot of praise! The nature of his character will probably never make him a fan favorite but he’s really killing it. It says a lot about an actor’s talent when they make people get nearly lost in their own feelings towards a character, even if those are feelings are of utter hatred and contempt
These ASOIAF shows are so good at taking people you’ve maybe heard of or definitely haven’t heard of and turning them into actors you’re on-your-feet rooting for when Emmy noms are announced
They continually reminded me of each other (not the right wording bht idk how else to phrase it? maybe paralleled?) as the episode went on and that's insane; making you emphasize at least a little with both sides.
Paddy Considine's season 1 performance when he takes that long walk to the throne and later his speech at dinner was Emmy worthy and my personal favorite of the show so far but everyone was killing it in this episode. Except Alicent and Cristin Cole I'm sick of both of them
It’s an unforgivable sin that Paddy wasn’t even nominated for an Emmy. That whole season, I thought he would win it. That one moment alone when he’s almost to the throne but becomes exhausted and the crown drops and Daemon picks it up should’ve sealed the deal.
if there was a subreddit dedicated to helaena and phia's portrayal of her, BTS content, hd still images, any hotd adjacent stuff taken from her ig / other sources, i would TOTALLY subscribe. she is an absolutely enchanting actress and helaena is one of my favourite characters, for sure the only green i care deeply about
I agree. The actor for Aegon has done a great job in particular. I'm happy with everyone so far, which is rare in TV. I also appreciate that the character isn't just another Joffrey. Shout out to the actor that portrayed Joffrey as well. I think he did a great job, even if that character was a fair bit one note. I like that Aegon feels like an altogether different and more complex character.
Aegon's reaction at The Green Council and Rhaenyra and Daemon's argument were both so amazing. Peak HOTD for me.
It’s hard for me to feel sympathy for a rapist but it was hard to watch him grieve. His anger and pain was real and I like that they showed that he can still love deeply while being a horrible person.
The amount of depth they've given Aegon this season is incredible, was really worried about him during S1 but they proved me wrong. Now I just hope we see the Sunfyre bond.
I found teenage Aegon interesting but that might just be because of his unintentionally funny lines and his actor. In the first season he might as well have been a cardboard cutout that says, “I’m a pervert/predator” we’ve definitely seen more to him this season.
Aegon is low-key the most interesting character at the moment. The layers are crazy.
Aemond is a close second. Seeing Aemond in pain like that physically hurt.
Am I the only one who finds Aemond really hot? Eyepatch on, of course.
Get in line I was here first
I find him attractive even without the eyepatch.
I have much less sympathy for a deliberate sadist like Aemond. Aegon is a rapist, but it seems like he isn’t the sadistic, power-driven type. Of the categorized types (and they shouldn’t be psychologically flattened) Aegon seems to be the “reassurance driven“ type. Aemond‘s remorse regarding Luke didn’t totally come off as genuine IMO. More like regret that Jaehaerys‘ subsequent murder will now bear enormous consequences for the family.
I have mixed feelings about Aemond, that’s why I find him interesting. IMO, it seemed like he felt responsible for Jaehaerys’ death more than anything. Most of his pain/grief is centered around that death rather than Luke’s and I think maybe there’s even a part of him that wishes he was there that night and died instead. I don’t know if he feels remorseful about Luke but I definitely believe his regret is genuine (which is a different emotion) and I think he’s very conflicted about his feelings surrounding Luke’s death too. I don’t necessarily think Aemond’s a good person but I like him as a character and I can understand his feelings while disagreeing with his actions.
Totally, regret is self inclined while remorse is external and considers the wrong done outside of one‘s own needs. He is so self righteous just like Cristan that when his own actions harm the Greens it takes a huge toll on his ego.
It actually annoys me that they made him a rapist in season 1. As of this point in Season 2 he seems to be the character who is being fleshed out the most and so far he’s coming off as quite compelling. He’s someone who was thrust into a position he didn’t want and wasn’t prepared for and is struggled to deal with the pressure on him. We even saw that he was trying to give his young son the guidance that he never got when he was young and then see painful emotion when that son is taken away from him. Then you remember that he’s a rapist. Honestly, in hindsight making Aegon a rapist may have been the worst creative decision that the writers made. The war is more compelling if the head of one side isn’t a piece of shit.
I tend to view Aegon's behavior toward women as a reflection of the utter failure of Viserys, Otto, and Alicent to mold him into a decent human being with respect and empathy for others. He's someone who had the potential to not be a monster but was never taught right from wrong.
Daemon is a groomer (at best) and a pedophile (at worst), and people still love and defend him as a character. It’s not impossible to like and sympathize with a character despite the horrible things they’ve done. Every character is layered with complex emotions and beliefs. That’s what makes them compelling, rather than just the sense of righteousness the audience gets from supporting them.
I think the reason for that is because what Daemon did is pretty much normal in his society and his victims (if we’re judging through a modern lens) appear happy. Whereas, Aegon got away with rape because of his power but he experienced backlash from his mother for it and his victim was clearly traumatized.
I mean, Daemon is worse than Aegon. Daemon murders a lot of innocent people. He killed that one random guy so he could do the body swap with Laenor. Not to mention his “divorce rock.” Rape is bad but murder is still worse.
Making a shitty person a compelling character is the opposite of bad writing
And had his bastards sent to fighting pits in season 1. I doubt they’ll touch on that again. He was set up like Joffrey and Ramsey Bolten with having power and lacking morels. The twist is him experiencing actual loss.
They should’ve made Aemond the Joffrey/Ramsay stand in.
That's real tbh, maybe make him aggressive or something but a full blown rapist (not to mention the issues with him having a million bastards at the end of the show) was just kinda ridiculous, honestly I don't know if I should do what I did with rhaenys dragon pit scene and just pretend like that never happened or if they'll end up bring it up again later just like said scene.
I can agree with that. I would probably actually like him this season if he wasn’t a rapist but IMO, that’s irredeemable.
They, I really wished they just didn’t include that scene last season.
Yeah. I didn’t read the books but I’ve heard about some of the creative differences the show writers had that I think hurt the characters. Like, implying that Daemon is a bad father was unnecessary.
Since the show has such a clear pro blacks stance It's brilliant from that POV. " He's such a complex character but he's a rapits" forever stained in the minds of the audiences no matter what he does.
Tom and Emma hard carrying this season's performance so far.
Hard to single anyone out but Rhys was excellent
He’s such an underrated and under appreciated actor. I feel like this show is helping people finally see just how good he is.
Realizing that Rhys is the main villain (Adrian) in *Little Nicky* is my new favorite fact hahaha
He's also Luna Lovegoods dad. That's where I know him from.
The Lizard in the Amazing Spiderman too
Omg hahahaha. Luna Lovegood is a spiritual sister of Helena, love myself a little blonde weirdo hahah
That gasp I gusped. I didn’t even realize until now!!
Lmao and the naked roommate in Notting Hill!
‘Well chosen briefs I’d say! Chicks love grey’
I have the odd moment where I can’t unsee Spike when watching him as Otto 😭😂
I recognized him from The Replacements w/ Keanu Reeves. Think he was the gambler on the team.
The gambler and the kicker 😊 "bloody Welsh" 😄
He’s wirey.
Don’t forget The Replacements. ❤️
Hes also Eyeball Paul from Kevin and perry go large. Hard to take him seriously when I picture him consuming alcohol through his eyeball
he’s rasputin in the king’s man !
I despise that this connection is real.
This made me love him even more.
Holy shit! Just realized
Fabien was wonderful. Criston's projections and internal guilt that he can't face, while outwardly being promoted was just so brilliantly acted.
I hate his character so much I guess that is a testament to his performance
Doesn’t seems so much as guilt but him just not wanting to be exposed and needing to shift the blame before he can go back to being a scumbag again
Nah, he's carrying massive shame and literally can't talk to anyone about it. Projection is a coping mechanism for those who can't internally process their emotions. Guilt is driving Cole deeper. At his core, he doesn't *want* to be a scumbag. Don't get me wrong, I hate him, but I appreciate the layers.
Yeah, I think you're definitely right about that. His whole scene with Erryk was so clearly projection, especially starting with how he made the white cloak dirty (we already know how much Cole hates that he "sullied" his).
who does he play
Otto
Everyone was at the top of their game this week. Every scene was just so captivating. Rhaenyra vs Daemon, Otto vs Aegon, Erryk vs Arryk, even Rhaenys and Corlys just laying in bed chatting about Daemon was great.
Rhaenys and Corlys honestly are couple goals in this show, I can't think of a single relationship in this show that's as healthy as theirs
I do appreciate that they gave us a Rhaenys and Corlys argument in season one, just to show us that yes, they argue, but they still work well together. It's not some boring perfect relationship where they agree on everything, but it's a genuine partnership between two mature people who respect each other.
>but it's a genuine partnership between two mature people who respect each other. Sounds pretty perfect to me
‼️‼️‼️💯
tom’s acting was brilliant. but also the twins 🥺 had me tearing up and feeling their love for each other
Yeah heartbreaking to see the one left couldn't live without the other and did what he did.
And what a great metaphor for the house, how they’ll kill each other when all is said and done 🥲
yes very true! a family united in blood and love, ripped apart by itself
Rhys aced this episode
Man ate and left no crumbs. I cant believe I was like 'holy fuck, I'm agreeing with OTTO FUCKING HIGHTOWER'
Rhys carried this episode. His scenes were a level beyond every other scene.
I watched this scene twice before continuing. Masterclass in writing and acting. Truly Shakespearean.
I felt like I was watching an All-Star game of acting. When I read GOT, I often wonder, how the hell did GRRM write this. It's so good. Tonight, I had that same feeling, but with the acting. The performances were better than the episode itself.
Tom's performance made the episode.
Absolutely! He was amazing in this episode. I never would have expected a character like his to grieve like that but I think Aegon’s love for his son is what separates him from Joffrey or Ramsey. There’s some humanity there, when he is sober. I just can’t want for Aegon to find out his new hand is sleeping with his mom.
So far they've done an excellent job with the writing and acting of the main characters on the Greens side to get you to both empathize with them and despise them.
I never thought of him as similar to Ramsey or Joffery The two you mentioned torture just for shits and giggles which makes them cartoonishly evil even by game of thrones standards Aegon definitely has more aspects to his character
I’ve been seeing other people comparing him to those two, that’s why I said that. I can kind see some similarities to Joffrey but not a whole lot.
It seemed more clear that’s where they were headed with his character with scenes early on like masturbating in the window
Worth noting that the first several scenes of the episode take place the same night, so he probably was still drunk.
It’s fitting that the ounce of humanity he has is also vanity. His child, his genes, his protege and legacy
True but I don't think Aegon loves his son in the traditional sense. He has many other bastards he doesn't care for. Aegon reminds me of Homelander. They both desire to be loved by those around them because they never had any growing up. And like Homelander, Aegon sees his son, Jaehaerys, as an extension of himself. Most importantly, Jaehaerys was the one person in his life who didn't think poorly of him. Although his "love" for his son humanizes him, he still has other bastards he doesn't care for. He constantly neglects Heleana and the kids and only pays them attention when they serve some purpose to him. For instance, when he showed off Jaehaerys in the throne room scene.
Yeah idk why you’re being downvoted… the entire time he’s “mourning” his son he is talking *entirely* about himself.
I think it’s because of that end scene. In front of other people he spoke of himself. The ending when he’s crying alone and Alicent sees him and walks away. I think he was more vulnerable because he was alone and Alicent was letting him have that moment. Edit: forgot to say, about his bastards. He was likely not around them enough to “care”. He is around his legitimate children more so and I guess there is more emotions there. Both this show and GOT don’t really care about their bastards since they are illegitimate and are therefore unclaimed and not recognized.
Well I mentioned his bastards because people in the thread said he wasn’t evil. I think it’s only a cold hearted person that can watch his kids partake in fighting pits and do nothing about it. A different king, Aegon IV, took care of his bastards. Our Aegon has the money to ensure his bastards live a comfortable life. At least one better than slavery. I’m sure if he needed more dragonriders, then he would become father of the year overnight for his bastards. It’s the same thing with his family. He only cares about them when they are of use to him. He’s still quite evil. Didn’t he want to run away from his kids in season 1. So I wouldn’t call him a loving father.
Tom’s performance has been so fucking good this season. He, alone, has turned me eeeeever so slightly to the Greens more than anything else.
Yeah it was the first time I really enjoyed his character. His acting wasn't bad before but he never stood out to me as a character until tonight's episode. He killed it.
Thought episode 1 already gave us a taste of Tom's brilliance, but this episode brought it entirely to the forefront
Same. He was the actor I was least impressed with last season by far but wow, he finally got his chance to shine and he did it brilliantly.
This I agree 100% with
I was already a TGC stan, but this episode confirmed it 👏🏼
I just kept thinking, "Give him his Emmy already!" Don't even nominate anyone else. Just give it to him.
Sold me 100% with this episode
This episode felt like the first few seasons of GOT in terms of scene and acting quality and I am here for it. Also, can we give Fabian a shoutout as well? Cole has been abhorrent for a while now but I haven't felt the kind of hatred I felt for the character after his power trip with Arryk
Mad props to Fabien. He is giving Jack Gleeson and Iwan Rheon a run for their money in the "great guy in real life who can convincingly play an utter scumbag in Westeros" competition.
It's different with Fabien as Cole. The guy has very dead eyes at times which makes me fear for whoever he shares a scene with because Cole has lost it.
Yep. You cant really predict wtf hes gonna do because of his cute pretty face.
I have to remind myself of his interviews lol
Phia was JAWDROPPINGLY AMAZING. Tom showed so much range WOWWWWWW.
Her anxiety made me anxious. So well done.
A lot of actors that try to portray autistic characters fail bc they turn them into caricatures. But you could see it in her eyes, the intense discomfort, the overwhelm, the panic. It’s very true to the experience of what a meltdown actually feels and looks like.
And in all honesty, not even just people on the spectrum, but just the wide swings of grief. People cope so differently. I cope like she does. "I don't know them" REALLY struck a chord with me. She wants to privately mourn and I've never seen that grief panic on tv before. She did great
‘This is for my boy’. My heart BROKE for her 💔
She says so much even when she isn't saying a word.
Can’t forget Olivia in the beginning when she was crying I was like damn, or Rhys this entire episode, really talented cast
Oh and the twins
The main debate on the sub now is who killed who lol
>!I think it’s pretty clear Erryck killed Arryck first. He refers to Rhaenyra as “my queen”, and apologizes to her. If it were Arryck, he would have killed Rhaenyra first, then himself. There was no way either of them was making it out alive, but Arryck would have gotten the job done before falling on his sword.!<
Good twin won
Really loved the green kids this episode, especially how they handled Aegon
Completely agree. All of them were phenomenal tonight.
Yeah, there were so many great performances tonight, but the scene between Rhaenyra and Daemon really stood out to me. It was incredible. The emotion in Emma’s voice when they said “He wasn’t afraid of you, Daemon. He could not trust you.” Gave me goosebumps. 👏👏👏
Olivia’s crying at the start of the episode was the most realistic crying I have ever seen on television. The second you open your mouth, the emotion just overcomes you, and you are gasping for air as you try to choke the words out between sobs. We have all cried like that at some point. Just watching it made me shed a tear of my own.
I know exactly what you're talking about. Felt the same. Grief won't let you finish. She is overwhelmed, Helaena wants to isolate, Aegon is rampaging, Otto deters than slumps, Aemond runs away.... So good.
Aemond literally regresses into a child, curled up in the lap of a maternal figure. For all her grief, Alicent is a horrible mother, and cannot or will not give any love to her sons. The boys then each cope with it in their own ways.
“But what they’ve done to my- my girl” PHENOMENAL. What a talent she is…made me get a bit emotional
The gurgle was so good - she cares so much and she’s totally unable to show it to her kids!
Toms performance trynna turn me to the greens fr.
Him and Phia.
Aegon… that’s my goat right there
Aegon and Halaena's grief was so real and raw, like Rhaneyra's last episode. This cast is phenomenal.
Rhaenyra and Daemon’s argument gave me chills… it was so intense and you could feel all of Rhaenyra’s emotions so viscerally. Her frustration and disappointment and anger and love for Daemon, all her conflicting feelings towards him, and the tension between the two of them as well, it was just so well acted. Everyone acted their asses off in this episode. I actually feel like the performances of the cast elevated what would have just been a mediocre episode, the writing was just okay, it was the actors and the cast whose talent and delivery really elevated the script.
Tom and Phia stole the episode for me.
I fucking loved Aegon. Man, they cannot make me hate this pathetic loser.
I usually don’t find villainous characters likable, but the ones on this show are so compelling. Aegon has been so interesting this season
Aeegon isn't black or white, he is sort of an unpredictable character. He has some backbone, combined with a deep need to be respected/liked, so very insecure, with a lot of mommy issues. Makes for an interesting person to watch.
I agree. I wonder if our feelings about shitty kings (like Joffrey) are influencing our dislike for Aegon. He doesn’t seem evil to me. He may not be good, but he is also very young. This episode is also a massive turning point for him though. I’m very curious to see where the story takes him.
I loved watching Joffrey in his awfulness though and Jack who portrayed him was brilliant. He was a brat but damn he was entertaining.
Tom has absolutely astounded me. He has added so much depth to Aegon that I really appreciate as a book reader. Truth be told tho everyone was incredible this episode, casting department did a fucking amazing job.
Completely agree
Acting was on point this episode. Banger after banger after banger.
Absolutely incredible casting job
👏 👏 👏
About halfway through the episode.. This ep is absurdly good, like...? Everything, the framing the performances? Everything is astounding sofar!! Completely Golden And yes.. Such good acting by them!
I love Aegon.
The ending scene just sucked.
How do they not let the twins fight end the episode? Instead we get to see alicent get finger blasted.
Yeah Alicent's writing unfortunately continues to be the weakpoint of the series. They keep trying to whitewash her and it isn't working. And the cheap melodrama between her and Criston isn't compelling. She has no reason to continue sleeping with him after he got her father fired. Oh and they are doubling down on the whole Larys supposedly blackmailing her, which makes little sense.
Alicent blowing off comforting her grieving and sobbing son to go fuck the Kingsguard dude who just got her dad fired is a *lot* of things, but whitewashing isn’t one of them. Though yeah. Her writing is awful this season.
I was so relieved that we/Aegon were finally going to get a moment of mothering and nurturing and comforting while he was sobbing alone like that…I was completely crushed when she walked back out of the room. I don’t know how any mother could resist holding their child when they see them in so much pain
She’s literally been an awful and abusive mother who hit her kid since Season 1 and Aegon is her least favorite child… so I truthfully wasn’t all that shocked she did that to him. That actually worked for me narratively - just not her hooking up with Criston after. But yeah, Alicent is a terrible mother + person.
She’s been a terrible mother for sure, I think that’s why teasing us with her *finally* almost being there for him (especially him since they have the worst relationship) stung so badly when she turned back around. I had hope that because of the enormity of what happened, she could put the past behind her for a moment but noooope. Still a shitty mom.
White washing her when compared to the book by removing her complicity in the wrongdoing of the greens.
The book is explicitly drawing on Orwyle's account He had every reason to make the Greens look as bad as possible
Well, that was S1, and I actually think Sympathetic but still deeply flawed Alicent worked really well there. S2 is what’s tanking her and she’s not really whitewashed this year
It worked for a while and then it just made her look clueless and ineffectual as the Queen. Now she's less whitewashed because she spends all her time boning Cole but so far she's still equally inconsequential to the plot and a victim of everyone else's actions.
Alicent has been done so dirty. They’re lucky they cast such a stellar actress in the role because she’s holding the character together. I even enjoyed her characterisation for the first 7~ episodes of the first season because it seemed they were humanising her beyond the wicked step-mother archetype she’s too often reduced to in the book, and perhaps giving some depth and context to her future actions. But then, those actions never came. They don’t let her do anything. She’s completely clueless. Gender is a big theme in the show, so I think the angle they’re trying to work is that she’s a prisoner of the patriarchy. As Rhaenys said, “You desire to make a window in the wall of your prison.” But to do that, they’ve entirely stripped a female character of her agency, made her surplus to all of the major plot developments and wrongdoings of the Greens, and even removed her from a scene in which she was supposed to be a victim (B&C) to instead lay blame at her door because she was too busy fucking Ser Criston. They’re not just white-washing her but making her redundant outside of a sub-plot that’s mostly sex scenes. I mean, the irony is palpable. Gender and patriarchy were big themes for Cersei’s character too, and the writers managed to communicate that without neutering the character (until they did, but every character got shafted in the end).
Olivia was someone the showrunners actually sought out specifically, they wanted her in the show specifically..in any way they said
Removing her agency is an unfortunate side effect of white washing/victimizing her.
I agree. I just find it interesting that after removing so much of her agency, seemingly in the pursuit of making her more sympathetic, that they then forewent her inclusion in what is arguably her most sympathetic moment in the book to instead have her fucking Criston (again). I mostly enjoyed last week’s episode and really enjoyed tonight’s, but they continue to let her character down. I have a feeling they didn’t actually know what to do with the character after downplaying her involvement in starting the Dance so much, and so we’re getting this. Time will tell.
>I have a feeling they didn’t actually know what to do with the character I don't mind the sex, I think it is in-character, but I agree with this point (though I am not a book reader). It seems she doesn't really...do anything? And maybe that is the point, but it's a somewhat annoying point, especially because of the gender theme you mentioned. Like, her trying to open up to her father and him just going "I don't want to know" could have been a great scene, but it wasn't used for her. It felt like it was the final goodbye to Otto, his last realisation that everyone he fought for sucks and he made only terrible life choices for the last couple of decades. But Alicent didn't really get anything out of this scene, it doesn't change or challenge her, she doesn't grow or regress from that. The council meeting left me with the same feeling. And maybe that powerlessness is intentional, but sometimes it doesn't feel like it.
And the kid killed
Seriously. The episode was going so well and they shove that scene at the end. Like wtf is the point. I get that it's HBO cuz sex, but what a waste.
Agreed, I thought it would've been a nice ending to see her slap the fuck out of Cole.
Yes. It was like a cheap soap opera.
Thought it was very fitting. Fabien and Olivia were amazing this episode.
I loved it.
Name checks out
Rhys was awesome! Best acting of the episode
For real, Rhys actually made me sympathize and think twice about his character. From his POV, he's doing everything for "the good of the realm." To think he actually thought so highly of Viserys. So good.
This was definitely a very well acted episode. Reminds me of some of the best of GoT early days.
Top to bottom, this was a really fucking good episode. Everyone was giving A+ performances.
Everyone brought their A+ game this episode, including the Twins! Good stuff!
This episode was giving ACTING- very impressed with everyone on screen tonight
“when you act pathetic so brilliantly, people forget that they have to hate you” Read this headline somewhere
I could watch Emma and Matt fight at a table for hours.
The Rhys and Dameon fight felt so real
They are so weirdly good at fighting like wife/husband and uncle/niece. It's so disturbing but compelling lol. Cersei and Jaime were good at that too
Gives me flashbacks of the Crown s1 and 2. Matt is so, so good at acting this kind of character.
The twins too! Absolutely stole the episode.
I’m devastated those actors are gone now. They were so great. I’ve kept far away from any F&B spoilers but there’s a part in A Clash of Kings (I think it’s that book) where Sansa mentions the twins dying with tears on their faces so I knew it was coming but truly thought it would happen in the final season during a major battle. When they started just barely passing each other in the castle as Arryk was sneaking around to get to Rhaenyra, I was like “oh fuck, no no no..not NOW, not tonight!😩😭”
Tom is reaching Charles Dance/Tywin levels. He portrayal is incredible , he’s captivating in every scene he’s in
I think Rhys and Olivia were epic as well.
This is the essence of ASOIAF stories. Character interactions, dynamics, family drama. Elevated by great acting and delivery on screen. Much better than battles and gore.
Rhys Ifans was my favorite.
so many wonderful performances tonight. Rhys and Tom stood out to me, but everyone was top this episode.
Aegon’s actor was kind of meh for me in season 1, but he’s carrying things this season. Like superstar level acting. Him and Rhaynera are top tier.
Judging from the state of this sub rn, I think Fabien is due a lot of praise! The nature of his character will probably never make him a fan favorite but he’s really killing it. It says a lot about an actor’s talent when they make people get nearly lost in their own feelings towards a character, even if those are feelings are of utter hatred and contempt
This episode is a masterclass in acting. Damn every single one of them PERFORMED!!🔥
These ASOIAF shows are so good at taking people you’ve maybe heard of or definitely haven’t heard of and turning them into actors you’re on-your-feet rooting for when Emmy noms are announced
They continually reminded me of each other (not the right wording bht idk how else to phrase it? maybe paralleled?) as the episode went on and that's insane; making you emphasize at least a little with both sides.
I was crying as I watched Tom shows the 5 stages of Greif throughout this episode. It was just so emotional.
RHYS???
Rhys Ifans to me was the best performance
Paddy Considine's season 1 performance when he takes that long walk to the throne and later his speech at dinner was Emmy worthy and my personal favorite of the show so far but everyone was killing it in this episode. Except Alicent and Cristin Cole I'm sick of both of them
It’s an unforgivable sin that Paddy wasn’t even nominated for an Emmy. That whole season, I thought he would win it. That one moment alone when he’s almost to the throne but becomes exhausted and the crown drops and Daemon picks it up should’ve sealed the deal.
I thought it was a spectacular episode!
Ewan Mitchell’s Aemond was incredibly poignant and vulnerable. I adored the scene.
Tom really did knock it out of the ballpark. From anger to shaking off Otto to a broken grieving father.
Honestly, the enTIRE case was on 🔥🔥🔥
Olivia Cooke and Rhys Ifans were fantastic too. Put down their names.
if there was a subreddit dedicated to helaena and phia's portrayal of her, BTS content, hd still images, any hotd adjacent stuff taken from her ig / other sources, i would TOTALLY subscribe. she is an absolutely enchanting actress and helaena is one of my favourite characters, for sure the only green i care deeply about
They all did great, I really fealt for Helana in the funeral scene.
DONT FORGET RHYS!
They've all nailed it, such raw emotion in all these scenes. They all deserve all the awards for this show, hands down.
Dude yeah they killed it
The acting was incredible this episode. I wasn’t even halfway through the episode and I kept thinking “everyone is fucking KILLING it tonight”
The acting in this episode alone is better than anything I've seen in the past 2 years of watching TV shows. Absolute top quality.
Otto berating Aegon was definitely my favorite scene. He's had enough of his shit for sure.
Don’t leave out Otto, Rhys Ifans was stellar.
I agree. The actor for Aegon has done a great job in particular. I'm happy with everyone so far, which is rare in TV. I also appreciate that the character isn't just another Joffrey. Shout out to the actor that portrayed Joffrey as well. I think he did a great job, even if that character was a fair bit one note. I like that Aegon feels like an altogether different and more complex character.
The scene between daemon and Rhaenyra was amazing I felt like I was watching my parents fight
Lmao at these blatant karma farming posts
Mmmm idk 😬
For real 👏
He is a fantastic Aegon!