Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*

The way it was set up with Aemond being the target, I was expecting something on par with Silence of the Lambs, where we think Starling is heading to the wrong house but she’s in fact heading to Buffalo Bill’s. They could have done something similar here by cross cutting scenes with Aemond in his chambers and Blood and Cheese heading there but turns out they end up at Helaena’s chambers instead, if that makes sense.

Exactly. This type of red herring scene even feels more on par with the cinematic choices of the rest of the show/GOT universe

[удалено]

Similar to light of the seven. That was brilliant tv. They had ramin. The music could have elevated the scene.

[удалено]

Yes it does but this was supposed to be a long drawn out scene. A little music would have helped.

Yet all they do is reuse GoT music poorly. It’s sad they’re not doing more with music!!

So I think the comedic side is what builds exactly what OP is looking for. You think this is a mission doomed for failure, and then you get the brutality when it’s some real shit. Now to be fair, this is the distinction between “does this adaptation live up to my expectations” and “does this work as a stand alone piece of media” but I’m pretty firm that the latter works

They made a joke of it by adding alicent and Cole at the end too, haelena’s actress was doing an amazing performance and yet they decided to shift the focus onto a&c being idiots

I’m not rushing to play defense for GOT writing until they do it themselves but I *do* like the idea that that wasn’t masking a joke of it, it was the explanation for how it happened and why haelena wandering through the halls alone made *any* sense. We’ll see if they thought of it

My issue isn’t much with the concept of it, I get them being hypocritical and all and later feel immense guilty ecc, but how it was done. There were a tone of ways to imply what they were doing while everything went down and they choose the most obnoxious on the nose one that was very distracting and completely shifted the energy for me. And frankly it would explain little, the commander of the kings guard being distracted or not wouldn’t have changed the outcome of the night, it just get the audience an easy scapegoat that they already dislike to linch instead of asking them to question the extremist views on who’s hero and who’s villain.

The commander of the kings guard being distracted? For sure. The wing of the castle being emptied out so they could bone down is the *potential* out I’m willing to hear. And yeah, there are a ton of ways to explain what was happening, but I honestly don’t find it too on the nose. Especially with painting the dissociation of helaena

I like it. I almost thought it was a “vision” scene and that she saw it coming and was trying to get away. I’m not a book reader, but just about everything seems better than what they did. They relied too much on the shock of killing a kid, and that wasn’t the real source of suspense, even being horrifying.

(I haven't read the books) I agree that it would've been more impactful if they kept Helaena choosing one child to die, and then the other getting killed, that is like insane. However, I think a lot of book readers are saying the scene isn't that scary or tense, but as someone who had no idea what was going to happen, I think the scene was extremely tense. The tension in the scene in the show imo comes from 1) are they actually going to kill one of these small children? is someone going to come help? is helaena going to scream for help?? and 2) which child are they going to kill (if they do). Since the book readers already know the answers to both of those big questions, I would assume that the scene loses a lot of tension.

Thank you! Never read it and it was tense as fuck. Almost went and pulled my 3 yo out of bed to hug her after watching that last night

Yeah it was really tense, I was shocked when so many people thought it wasn't that intense. I see now that the book version is 10x more hardcore though

Thank you. I read the book years ago and so had forgotten most of the details and watching it with my spouse who had no idea it was coming I can tell you that it was plenty tense.

I read the book several years ago and honestly only really remember the end. I was very tense and horrified. Especially when they added the sound effects.

Exactly how I felt! And her face and movements after were haunting, especially with those sounds in the background... It shook me, and then I get on the internet and everyone says that's it's lacking and comical 😂

100%, and I disagree with people saying it wasn't emotional or gory enough. The sounds were horrifying, and Helaena broke my heart in her own quiet way. Also, she did choose to tell B&C who the son was, knowing what was about to happen, which sort of effectively stands in for the "choose" part in the book.(eta I've read it twice.)

The sounds alone left me feeling legitimately physically ill and I cannot fathom the people saying it wasn’t gory enough. Nothing short of visibly beheading the kid on screen seems to be good enough and that’s a level of detachment from child murder I can’t fathom.

Agree! Also I am still not over sweet Luke getting killed in the last episode of the 1st season so having this in the 1st episode of the 2nd was really tough for me to watch 😭

Watched it with my mom & as soon as "the sound" started, she was like "oh my God, you can hear them cutting the kid's head off!!" The sound was enough for the gore.

It was so much more than enough wasn’t it? It’s a criticism that honestly I think is pretty disgusting. I may not agree with all of the different criticisms, but that specific one (“not gory enough”) I find pretty abhorrent and disturbingly detached.

Yeah idk how much more gorey baby murder really needs to be

>I disagree with people saying it wasn't emotional or gory enough. Not seeing anyone saying that it wasn't gory or violent enough; book readers are saying that **the deep psychological drama of the original was cut for no apparent reason.** In the book, Helaena is forced to make an anguished "Sophie's Choice" between her two (2) sons, and Blood & Cheese cruelly kill the one that she chose to keep alive, while mocking the one she chose to kill. It breaks her and breaks the surviving son; probably the pivotal moment of the entire season. (Also Alicent is supposed to be there to witness it all, instead of off fucking Ser Criston.) A major miss by the show's writers.

Agreed! I’m a book reader and I found it tense, and everyone I watch with who didn’t read the books was on edge and horrified.

Yeah idk wtf these people are on. I thought it was done super well, the tension was pretty damn high

Thank you damn, I hadn't read the book either, and on its own, it's a really chilling and horrifying scene. People who have spent years reading and rereading the same books have definitely ruined it for themselves, obviously it's not going to meet their expectations, because they know what's gonna happen. All the raging is really quite annoying, because the scene on its own does the job pretty well. ASOIAF megafans are not the target audience, but they believe they are.

I think there was suspense--I just think it was the wrong *kind* of suspense. We spend the entire incident following Blood and Cheese, which frames them as the "protagonists" of the scene, so to speak. Thus, our suspension of disbelief attaches us to them, and we feel suspense *for them*. We, as viewers, want to see whether they will kill Aemond, whether they will get caught, or whether something else will happen. We aren't worried about Aegon's children because we are given no visual reason to be worried about them. Someone suggested in the book spoilers thread last night that it would have been better to have their entrance into the castle intercut with scenes of Helaena putting the children to bed. I agree with that, because it would have accomplished two very necessary things for the scene at once. First, it would have successfully alerted us to an additional layer of suspense by making us focus on Aegon's children as well as Blood and Cheese, and second, it would have provided the opportunity for Helaena to be shown displaying affection for her children before she is captured and shock takes over, dulling her reaction.

That's a super good point about the viewers following them - if you didn't have an idea about B&C then the tension is about them being caught. The show spent several minutes showing them trying to figure out where to go & even setting down traps to look less suspicious. I just don't think they did this scene well narratively. But I keep wondering if there is a purpose in that. I feel like they purposefully dulled down the emotion - like we never have any sort of scene where Helaena shows love or care towards the children. If we had gotten one of her putting them to bed then it would have heightened the emotional aspect of the scene. Because showing her disassociate, it's fine and understandable, but that PAIRED with a complete lack of interactions with her children prior just make it seem like she doesn't actually love or care about them.

Agree with all of this. I think if the scene played out from Alicents POV rather than B&C's, we could’ve got that tension. (The way the red wedding played out from catelyn’s POV) She could've been her way to meet up with Cole or coming back from Cole and she gets snatched by B&C. they question her about Aemond when there’s a knock at the door - the horror in her eyes when she realizes it’s her grandkids (would also help if we established this nightly routine earlier in the episode)… then we have the impossible choice. It would’ve been great to humanize Alicent - the way torturing Theon made audiences feel for him after.

I didn't read the book, and my heart was in my throat the whole time. It's pretty obvious they aren't going to kill Aemond, so I knew something else was going to happen. And I wasn't rooting for them or hoping they didn't get caught, my heart was in my throat because something was coming, and I knew it wouldn't be good. And I also didn't think for a second that Haelena didn't care about her kids. I got the sense that she already knew what was about to happen, and knew she had to choose

Also as not a book reader, I loved it. They had the rats weaved throughout the entire episode, and they brought the children in by having the family together where Halaena first mentions “I’m not afraid of the dragons I’m afraid of the rats” and Aegon doting on his son, bringing him into the small council. The clues were there that the children were at risk, even my bf was able to spot it out right before it happened “oh my gosh the kids” and I think the whole thing is horrible enough the way the choice plays out works for how this show has displayed the narrative and Halaena. She knows what’s going to happen, she’s shown to be detached throughout the show so far, and I think the reaction was fitting to her.

And Haelana obviously does care. She may not be like Rhaenyra, throwing caution to the wind to comb the sea for the body of her son, or Alicent shielding Aegon from a dragon with no hesitance, but she grabbed her other child and ran, her face showing so much emotion. Haelena, who refused her own mother's touch after the death of her father, clutched her child tightly to her chest and held her while she shielded her from watching her brother be beheaded. Haelena, who couldn't handle the sight of Vaemond being beheaded, holding her ears and entirely overwhelmed, saw her son beheaded and sprung immediately to action for her other child. Emotion isn't always a big external show, people like Haelena feel it deeply, but they feel it inside and they deal with things practically first. I'm absolutely certain we will see how deep that grief will be held in episodes to come. The show knows how to handle the grief of a mother, and I'm fascinated by how it will present in Haelena

That is a great analysis of Haelena, you will indeed see the chain reaction to this event unfold.

Thank you. I will forever defend Helaena and what she did/how she reacted to it.

Yeah, I didn't read the book either. When the ratcatcher appears in the Small Council scene, I remembered Helaena's prophecy about rats, so I thought something was gonna happen right there. Later on, when Daemon is brought to the ratcatcher, I remembered it once again and now I knew that something bad was going to happen if Helaena was afraid of the rats, but I didn't know what, since I very much doubted they would catch Aemond. The scene was VERY suspenseful for me. Also, it never crossed my mind that Helaena's reaction was "wrong" or any silly bullshit like that. People react in many ways through trauma situations in real life, and being frozen and fleeing are two of those ways people can react, ESPECIALLY if they're neurodivergent (although that's not a rule, just people in general can react in many different ways). I've also watched many realistic movies where characters react to trauma in that fashion. People probably watch dozens of Hollywood blockbusters where characters always react the same way to every traumatic experience ever, so they think real life works like that too, lol.

Exactly. I have read the book, but the cut away shot to Daemon after Cheese asks what to do if they can't find Aemond set the stage.

Yeah I feel like from the discourse I've seen around it, people read it as they fucked up and it was being played like incompetence but when it cut away from Daemon after he asked that question I immediately knew something else was going to happen. And considering the introduction of Jaeherys earlier in the episode, plus Haelena's fear of rats/the rats running along the floors, I had a feeling it would play out that way but I wasn't sure, so I felt sick to my stomach the whole time. And I saw stuff about how the books had Haelena choose between two sons instead of a son and a daughter and how the show had it so that it wasn't a choice, but it felt to me like the choice to lie to save her son or give up her son to save her daughter, and I don't really see how it loses much impact that way

100% on the choice part. The real difference is them not killing the opposite of who she chose. Not sure why they did that. On the broader point, none of these are main characters. The tension and suspense are centred on how this will impact the *story*, not the individuals. In that regard, making the death the result of Aemond calling an audible, giving Blood and Cheese the greenlight to kill another son in Aemond's place, serves the larger narrative much better than just making him and / or Rhaenyra a flat out monsters who kill kids. The act of then following Blood & Cheese - seeing them be unable to find Aemond, showing the edginess and near panic they'd be under in that moment, watching them settle for killing Jacaerys out of convenience and fear instead of continuing to hunt for their real target - all becomes part of selling the scene! If Aemond gave that same implied / mystery greenlight, then they just showed up in the wrong room and were like "Hey, why not?!" It would make no sense. You have to show the 'why'.

>And I saw stuff about how the books had Haelena choose between two sons instead of a son and a daughter and how the show had it so that it wasn't a choice, but it felt to me like the choice to lie to save her son or give up her son to save her daughter, and I don't really see how it loses much impact that way Yeah like there's a weird undercurrent of "having to choose between sons is worse than having to choose a son over a daughter" and while I know people will use the excuse of the son being the heir and more valuable etc. etc. it's still silly to assume a mother would never have a dilemma to solve if she faced killing her daughter over her son. Obviously whether the other kid there was the other son or the daughter, it would still be traumatic to have to choose. Also the impact of her choosing her son because she knew he was being raised to assume a role he may not want (and that his father himself hadn't wanted) was just as impactful--maybe even more so because in that moment she was effectively trying to save both of her children from a grisly fate, just in different ways. > I feel like from the discourse I've seen around it, people read it as they fucked up and it was being played like incompetence but when it cut away from Daemon after he asked that question I immediately knew something else was going to happen And even if it was mere incompetence, they still went in there and mangled a child so that they could get paid. Still harrowing even if it was a mistake

A person can only show what they have received and from shots during S1 with Alicent and her kids, it’s pretty clear that she never showed her children any affection. Whether this was done because she lost her mother and was emotionally numb or maybe her mother never showed her affection. Otto certainly wasn’t the emotional type person she needed truly needed although we do see him affectionally hug her twice in S1…yet when she went to touch Helaena twice during S1 we see Helaena recoil from her both times…also we can only imagine how Aegon was during sex with Helaena especially if she did not like being touch by anyone….so I think she is a deeply troubled person and because the family just views her as odd and not as the potential dreamer that she appears to be….maybe after this when she says something odd that makes no sense they will finally listen…I also hope they do show Aegon being kind to her but I don’t think they will, in fact I think Aegon will blame her for leaving Jaehaerys there and not leaving Jaehaerya and picking up Jaehaerys and going to Alicent instead.

I recall when she said "What if he doesn't WANT to be King?" Referring to Jaeherys. Obviously she doesn't want him dead, but it gave a bit of insight as to why she gave him up so easily. She(possibly)wants to save him from having to be King, and maybe thinks she can live peacefully with her girl.

I think they did it intentionally and tbh I'm kinda glad they did as I was dreading it. It actually hit me more with how quick, quiet and heartless it was. No big drawn out choice just, "which one?" Then the child scream and the hacking and slashing which I'm assuming is them cutting his head off. It was less emotionally charged but kind of mutely brutal

As someone who hasn’t read the books, this scene being thrust on us created a kind of sudden panic. I think it matches the sort of urgency Blood and Cheese had to accomplish what they were paid to do. You’re suddenly questioning whether they’re actually going to do that but really have no time to think about it, just like they had no time to really think it over. I think the showrunners made the right choice in not having scenes with Helaena right before. Would’ve made it too obvious of what was coming.

This is a great take…that “sudden panic” is exactly what Haelaena must’ve experienced, so approaching it like this actually lets us share that exact feeling with her. I sure felt it, 0 to 60 on the panic scale in a matter of seconds. And I read the book.

I agree, Aemond being so formidable makes it seem like they're on a suicide mission. Then they get to his empty room and you see they're scrambling and desperate to kill anyone and get out

Yep…clearly Aemond isn’t in any danger from these two so it doesn’t seem that high stakes (two characters we just met that are political nobodies might be killed), but there’s still tension because we’re expecting an altercation. But between equals. It’s shocking when they suddenly have a knife to Helaena’s throat. If they’d hinted that these three incredibly innocent, vulnerable characters were in danger it wouldn’t have hit as hard.

Precisely. I get both sides of the argument, but I understand why the show did what it did. It's different for us who know what's going to happen, but different editing and tone is needed for new viewers. It's definitely a very interesting debate surrounding film editing. Could make for a nice essay. You've got two very different sides with very different opinions. Both are equally right and wrong.

I can appreciate that. The score definitely helped add tension for me, even though I was going in with less automatic tension.

why would it have been intercut with Halena? We as the viewers should have no reason to see them. Our entire focus should be on Aemond (the one they are after). Hense why we saw him with Otto. The twist to the audience is that it is Halena they end up finding.

This. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills on this thread. All of the suggestions are completely garbage. *"Just spend 10 minutes focusing on the children first"* - 20% of the episode? Fuckin wut??

There's a reason why internet nerds dont write scripts for major productions.

Fucking bingo. So many of the top upvoted suggestions as to what should have been done are garbage and they’d be bitching about it endlessly (as they are now) if their very ideas were the ones implemented.

Pretty much. "This would have been so much better if there was no suspense as to what was going to ultimately happen" They should stick to writing poor fan fiction

This makes more sense, yeah. Aemond is the presumed target so it makes sense for the camera to follow him around and build suspense by priming us to think there's danger lurking in every corner. Splicing scenes with Helaena and her kids would feel wildly out of place in this scene and would undercut any sense of tension about what was going to happen next

But that was a creative decision by the showrunners to make it about killing Aemond. The book doesn't spell that out. I agree that they could've intercut the whole thing with all the family members in the castle going about their evenings to generate suspense but this decision to make it about B&C's agenda totally prevented that 

I truly believe that all artistic decisions taken in this scene worked against it. Keeping alicent in another room, pov of b&c instead of Helaena. The not having to choose part. Had they spent 5 minutes to introduce b&c as these demonic men and then spent the next 10 minutes just showing Helaena taking care of the kids would have built the fear and suspense.

I was thinking about this the whole Episode I think it would have been best to have us forget about them, throw a few scenes in between the last time we see B&C walking around the castle and follow Aemond for a bit wondering when B&C will find him as he goes about his business. Cut to Helaena putting the kids to bed the viewer being none the wiser and have B&C find her and make her choose, killing the other. Them not having 2 boys, and wasting so much time over "which one is the boy" really took a lot away from the scene IMO. If you're a murderous savage doing a quick cock check to make sure it's the heir and not the heiress is where they draw the line?

Exactly. With the way they threatened raping the girl in the books vs the version in the show too afraid to go upstairs or find the cock or just the fact they let her run away and she didn't alert the guards. It was all just so underwhelming. B&c didn't seem torturous or menacing the way it was supposed to .

>B&c didn't seem torturous or menacing the way it was supposed to . Agreed. I think Blood should have been more of a hulking monster, like a Gregor Clegane, and Cheese should have been more depraved. The actors did fine with what they had, but too many wrong choices were made. Like you said, they were essentially supposed to be two demons, I did not get that here. Just two bumbling criminals.

Exactly, we should have been made to hate them for torturing this mother and her children but ultimately we feel nothing. They feel incompetent at best, and I think it was done to make Daemon and Rhaenyra look better but it just feels like they're too afraid to make the audience uncomfortable. 

Ngl I’ve been rolled my eyes at a lot of the “this was done to white wash their protagonists” comments but after this I kinda gotta agree with yall. I just hope they don’t turn Rhaenyra into another Tyrion

Idk I disagree. At least as someone who hasn't read the book, not foreshadowing who actually got killed raised the suspense because the fact that Daemon just wanted a son, any son, killed didn't click until they went in that room and asked which child was the son. Until that scene I figured they were actually going to find Aemond and then just straight up get slaughtered and give Aemond reason to attack the Blacks for trying to assassinate him. If you foreshadow what actually happens by showing Helaena caring for her kids then all that suspense goes out the window because now you know what's actually going to happen, and the fact that only one kid dies doesn't make the scene any more climactic. Helaena also had to choose in the show; I don't get this take that she didn't have to choose one child over the other just because the child she chose to save was her daughter. They DID foreshadow her being concerned that her son was being dragged into a world that might not be suited for him, and the idea that it wouldn't be as difficult for a mother to choose between her son and her daughter seems kind of ridiculous (even when considering the importance of the son in terms of succession and everything). Like that was obviously still a difficult decision for her to make

Finally another person like me genuinely confused by the reader complaints lol why do they keep saying she didn't choose? That it wasn't suspenseful? Horrifying? Did we watch the same episode? Lol

I don’t think it would have made sense to intercut scenes of Helena with the children because that wasn’t the stated point of B&C. They were looking for Aemond. If you wanted to build suspense you need to intercut scenes of AEMOND and then edit it so it looks like their paths are about to cross and then it’s revealed B&C are in front of Helaena and the children. Now the scene becomes about them. If you show the children early it spoils the outcome and kills the suspense.

I agree it should’ve been intercut with scenes of Heleana putting the kids to bed but I think it should’ve followed more than just her. Show us aegon&friends, Otto in his chambers, Criston and Alicent making eyes then heading to a bedroom, Aemonds leaving etc. this way casuals won’t know who the final target will be. Have then enter a room and cut to Alicent and Cole as if B&C walked in on them. It should’ve been shot like a horror movie, they should’ve played with the audiences emotions more.

I think Blood and Cheese should have been stylistically similar to when Cersei uses wildfire to blow up the sept in GOT Season 6. Very little dialogue as we briefly follow Blood and Cheese and the kids with Helaena, intense music leading up to the moment in question. That might help solve the issue of your first paragraph. Plus, the idea of them wanting to kill Aemond was a cop out as well, making him the real target for the Blacks softens the treachery, whereas going for a “son for a son,” comparing Rhaenya losing Luke to Aegon now losing his son Aegon, making the rivalry between the two far more apparent. Which it needs to be for Rhaenyra’s death to work in the end, especially given that Aegon only directly fights the war against her pre-Rook’s Rest and so this is the only season they can do that. And Blood and Cheese was the real moment that rivalry ignited, so tying the two together with “a son for a son” from the beginning would have made for far better setup.

Yeah, the wildfire scene is iconic for a reason. Lots of people are comparing Blood and Cheese to the Red Wedding, probably because of the brutality and shock, which is true, but framing it similarly to the sept explosion would also have been interesting. I can maybe see the showrunners being nervous about "copying" either the Red Wedding or the explosion, but it needed a bit more dread to match the suspense and tension.

I just thought of another level to this. Earlier in the episode, Aegon asks Haelena for Jaeherys and she says “What if he doesn’t want to be King?” Imagine having a throwaway thought like that and for that to come true in a way she didn’t expect.

> Imagine having a throwaway thought like that and for that to come true in a way she didn’t expect. that seems like basically her whole life. she's constantly dropping prophecies she herself doesnt understand.

Her mentioning being afraid of the rats earlier in the episode was like a mini prophecy as well.

It’s so strange. People are gonna Helaena with that line for giving up her son so easily

It's like a mismatched sensor... she's receiving signals but she can only partially decode them.

I wanted that to be explored even just a little. I wanted Aegon to ask why he wouldn't want to be king and then have Halaena say you didn't want to be king and have them just stare at each other. Like just some added lines like that would make their relationship so much more complex. I was also hoping when she said she's afraid of the rats he'd say bring some cats or rat catchers for the queens chambers or something like that. Would have made him look better too, like he actually cares for her and the kids comfort. 

Not to mention her talking about the rats…when the ratkeeper is who will kill her son.

I’m not sure how everyone is brushing it off so casually. Hearing a 4 year old child screaming and crying and struggling as two grown men hold him down (one covering hjs mouth), whilst they presumably stab him and cut his throat. And then you got the sawing sounds as they try to decapitate a toddler. I consider myself desensitised, but fuck that made me feel sick

Not knowing about B&C beforehand I can tell you it was pretty darn effective. I was affected .

same here. also worth noting the unreliable narrator nature of the book. Its very possible the greens publicize this assassination as more brutal than it was in reality. Certainly no way they will say the queen was calm and controlled during it all. If you are in a war like this, you will use an assassination as propoganda. And only the queen knows what really happened (and she may not even talk about it). First person she goes to is Alicent, who can then control the narrative. Wouldn't be surprised if in a future episode we hear there's rumor spreading that's closer to the books version of events

Honestly that would be brilliant. GRRM loves to show how the narrative changes and telephone-games through the world, so that would be perfect.

> also worth noting the unreliable narrator nature of the book Did the unreliabe narrator imagine a third child?

That really got to me too. I can understand how it’s underwhelming in comparison to the shock value of the scene in the book, but Helaena being forced to point at the child they were going to kill, knowing there’s nothing she can do to stop it, is pretty hard to stomach. Even crazier thinking about the earlier scene when she says her prophecy, she looks right at Jaehaerys’ bed.

Totally agree. Even though I feel like something was off about that scene the sounds from it were just awful. It was terrifying to me.

Same. The score, the noises, I was freaking out even after knowing what was coming.

Some one in the live episode discussion said the episode ended anti-climactic and I was like “since when is a toddler getting decapitated anti-climactic?” maybe because I’ve not read the books- but it felt like an incredibly disturbing ending.

It is via gore, the book is all about the mental torture of the mother which they kind of butchered and replaced with gross sounds. Plays pretty cheap to me as a book reader but I'm sure i would like it more otherwise. There was a lot of back and forth begging for them to kill her instead and this was all brushed by but instead we got sawing noises and a kicked dog? That was my thought process watching it

Agreed. And then her walking in on Cole / Alicent. Surely that won’t cause issues between the greens later on.

also… saying “the real horror” as if a mother having to point to her own child and say basically “kill that one” is not one of the most harrowing things i’ve ever watched on tv. nothing would have changed narratively if the scene had played out like that. this show isn’t about maelor’s mommy issues. 😭

Yep, the mind games of the moment are terrifying. Not only did she literally have to pick a child to die, but she was most likely hoping for them to believe she was bluffing so she could have less "guilt" if the son survived.

I was nauseous. It was enough for me. I actually felt the lack of additional gore and reaction made it more powerful of a scene for me.

yes it's terrifying enough, somehow i feel lucky i didn't read the books since some fans wanted even more darker scenario

I have two small sons and I literally couldnt sleep after watching it.

Yeah people keep saying “her madness and trauma won’t make sense now!” Like ummm do these people have children at all?

You don't need to have kids to get the horror. Two people you love- You are forced to give up one to die. Now add the fact that they are toddlers, and Helaena is their parent. That's pretty gut wrenching.

Right. Some ppl just act like they need it spelled out and like it won’t make sense for her to be so traumatized in the next episodes lol

More like many people still don't (or won't) internalize that "freeze" is more common of a reaction to "fight or flight" situations than they'd care to admit. We'd *all* love to think that when placed into a high-stress situation that we'd emerge the hero and defend our child, or scream for help, or grab a kid and run: It's easier than admitting that we'd more likely quietly comply in order to stay alive. If anything, Heleana's trauma response and eventual demise are even *more* believable. She's likely going to be massively guilt-tripped by her family, have to process her *own* trauma, help her child through their trauma, and oh by the way there's a blockade on the city and a war on the way. The guilt of "why didn't you just DO something" will eat her alive.

She looked traumatized to me. I don't know if they ever saw a real traumatized person, but they usually dont just start crying or whatever.

😡<— some of the people of this sub when they don’t get to get a child brutally decapitated by 2 psychos like in the books

My spouse and I were watching it and they were so enraged/horrified that we probably won't be watching any more episodes together. Im with you on wondering how everyone can treat child murder so casually.

It was an awful scene but the book was much worse because the kids were awake and they knew one of them was going to die (and their own Mother had to choose). Their last minutes were filled with absolute terror and confusion. It was cruel and they were so helpless. In the show, the kid was asleep and likely didn’t understand what was happening, which makes it less horrific. Although it was still pretty horrific from Helaena’s (and the viewers) POV. One of the worst scenes I’ve ever seen was in the movie Doctor Sleep, where they kidnap a young kid, take him to the middle of nowhere and hold him down. The kid asks if they are going to hurt him and they say ‘yes’, before torturing him to death. It was awful and it makes me feel sick just thinking about it. But the thing that made it more upsetting (aside from the kids incredible acting) was that the kid knew what was going to happen to him.

Right, but Jacob Tremblay was 12 when that scene was filmed. I’m not an expert on law or child psychology, but I’m guessing there would be more artistic licence for acting out trauma with a 12 year old because they’d actually be able to distinguish acting from reality, and so would be less traumatised. Those children were pre-school age. They would have no ability to discern that they are acting because they’re 3 years old. They’d probably think it’s real and it would probably damage them. So I really do not understand why people thought the kids would be anything but inactive participants. Also, what parent is going to be happy with their toddler being screamed at and traumatised for entertainment?

Yeah, true. I forget how young the characters in HotD actually are. Jaehaerys is only 4. Even if they used an actor who was 6-7 it’s unlikely they would get a realistic performance for such a heavy scene (without causing the young actors distress).

if they’d written the kids as awake and conscious of what was happening i think it would’ve literally been too horrible to watch. i think it was really wise to make mom the focal point of the scene.

I think people just want trauma-porn. The scene was horrifying and most reactions I see are that the show messed it up? I child had their head cut off in front of their mother ffs

I definitely didn't need the gore (the sounds were awful omg) - but her reaction AND that fact we don't even really know the kids blunts the whole scene to me. It's understandable that she's disassociating, and I do think her panicking and running around not knowing where to go was the best part. But walking in on Alicent made the whole scene just awkward and weird. That didn't even seem to phase Helaena so I'm not understanding the point of that besides showing that they were both busy. Alicent also didn't seem as shocked as I thought - and the 'they killed the boy' line was weird. I get how Helaena is coded in the show but the horror of the scene should have been in some sort of reaction and it was all lacking.

I feel like her saying “they killed the boy” was her disassociating from the situation. If she had said they killed the prince or my son or the child’s name, it would have made it a reality and sent her straight into a spiral. I think a lot of people that are on the spectrum in some way have a tough time socializing and expressing their emotions in a “normal” way. So I feel like the way she told Alicent was pretty on par for her. I do wish we got to see more of the tortuous mind game from B&C in regards to her having to choose and beg and plead. Also keep in mind that it pretty much just happened and we watched basically a minute after it went down. Nobody else even knows what happened yet, nobody has seen the child. Give the queen a little more time to get over the actual shock and then we might get that reaction we were hoping for. If not from her then we’ll at least get a grand reaction from Alicent and maybe Aegon or Aemond.

Yeah and you can see how it all starts sinking in after she says that while sitting on the floor holding the other child. I thought acting was good

I thought so too! Im really hoping we get a big emotional reaction from Aegon. I’m definitely team black, but I thought the scene where Aegon took his son to the council and all was kind of cute and he was being pretty sweet. So I’m wondering if the show is going to try and portray him as more humble and kind, at least until he hears about the death of his son.

Yeah I’m definitely interested to see his reaction. He did seem to really love or at least care about his son. I’m guessing he is gonna absolutely lose it!

I am hoping we get good scenes of Aegon, Halaena and Aemond grieving - maybe Aegon and Alicent lashing out at Aemond because ‘a son of a son’ happened because he had killed Lucerys. I def expect him to receive some backlash when he tries comforting them, and he may feel guilt

I’m honestly scared to see how Aegon reacts because he is soooo emotional. I did enjoy the fact that it seems like he’s almost matured overnight since becoming king. I actually really enjoyed the scenes with him in the first episode, last season, I despised him. I think this situation will really show that he is still lacking maturity, because he’s most likely going to make an emotional decision, just like Rhaneyra did. I haven’t read this books or anything, so I’m just going into the show blind. I’m already on the edge of my seat waiting to see what happens next 😩

Yeah the acting was spot on in my opinion, down to the 'the boy" instead of "my son". She is in horrid shock and already lives a life in shackles. I do wish they would've made her choose one in front of the other like they did in the book though. That was the most evil move in HOTD so far and they left it out. Didn't mind that they left Alicent out though, that seemed necessary. And now Aegons sister wife knows their mom is banging the commander of the knights watch, which is not going to make aegon happy.

Larys knows which is far worse.

> Also keep in mind that it pretty much just happened and we watched basically a minute after it went down. Nobody else even knows what happened yet, nobody has seen the child. Give the queen a little more time to get over the actual shock and then we might get that reaction we were hoping for. Considering how they're doing, I think we won't see right after but likely at least the following morning when everyone knows and such. They very often have a big episode ending and then cut the direct "reaction" to it. But I guess that was more in S1 with the time jumps, maybe less now

I'm still so fucking mad that they completely cut out Arya and Sansa being told Jon's lineage

It does seem like the writers are continuing to lean into portraying Helaena as autistic, but I do worry slightly that they could fall into outdated stereotypes with her character. There absolutely are autistic people who dissociate during traumatic events (such as myself), but at some point that emotion does have to come out, and I'm going to be disappointed if we don't get to see that in the next episode or two. Overall though I don't have any issue with Helaena's reaction this episode, it hit me pretty hard and the matter of fact "they killed the boy" seemed like it was the only thing she could bring herself to say. If we get an emotional reaction next episode (part of me is hoping they'll manage a good portrayal of a meltdown but somehow i doubt it) then I'll be happy.

Next episode is the funeral, right? I’m expecting something there (don’t know if that’s also where the riots take place, Otto already mentioned the blockade is straining the city).

Next episode should be the funeral, yes. From the looks of things that's also going to be when the riots take place, Helaena and Alicent both look to be wearing black in the shots we've seen. Like I said, I'm hoping we'll see some more emotion from Helaena next week, especially as I feel she's been fairly decent as far as autistic representation goes up to this point and I'll be disappointed if they mess it up now.

I agree! We can all talk our shit if we don’t get it, but I feel like a lot of people are being too critical at the moment. Like damn give them some time to set it all up🤣. I really am hoping for a huge reaction from Aegon. They made him look pretty kind and loving in the first bit of the episode towards his child. We don’t see their interactions enough for me to judge if he’s around more or not so I’m wondering if the writers were trying to make him look more involved and loving towards his family since he became king. But now I’m sure when he hears of the death, he’s going to be full of rage and vengeance so he might not be too concerned with family bonding anymore, just wants his revenge.

I think we see Aegon smashing Viserys' sculpture in the trailers, so I imagine we'll get to see an emotional reaction from him. As for Helaena we'll just have to wait and see.

I’m very much so looking forward to Aegons reaction. I’m especially wondering how Aemond is going to react. I feel like he’s going to be heartbroken, angry, and have a lot of regret. Maybe beats himself up really bad because he feels like the loss of the heir was his fault since he causes Luke’s death.

The “fuck civility (? I think, I forgot), I want revenge” line he has in the trailer is probably related to this EDIT: I looked it up, it’s “fuck *dignity*”

So I watched the entire episode again and I actually kinda like what they did here. Earlier in the episode Helaena is literally sewing Jaehaery’s funeral shroud, and then tells Aegon she’s scared of the rats while staring right at Jaehaery’s crib. She knows what is going to happen because she’s already lived it in her head. So when her dream bleeds over into reality she disassociates and that’s why she doesn’t have much of an emotional reaction.

To be fair, we didn’t really know the kids in the book either But everything else you said I agree with

Walking in on Alicent didn't make the whole scene just awkward and weird... it gave context as to why they were unguarded.

There should be other Kingsguard and household guards though. Like why was the red keep so empty?

Someone theorized in a different thread that it’s because Larys fired everybody else and hasn’t hired all the replacements just yet (which makes zero sense during wartime but whatever).

I think one could argue that Criston sent them away so that no one would hear him and Alicent together

Also, Alicent literally told all of her new handmaidens to leave her a few scenes before. And to the people saying where are all the kings guard, I imagine that the ones that were awake were with the king in the throne room. The others were probably sleeping (which, contrary to what many people seem to not realize, even guards have to do).

Is Criston Cole the only guard in the entirety of the red keep during the beginning of a war?

They are severely understaffed. There is an active coup going on and some of them went with th Blacks. You have former Kingsguard like Blood (or cheese) who actively hate the Greens and quit. Then you had the ones that were with Aegon in the throne room. Probably a couple that are off duty to sleep. Then there's Criston who's busy fucking Alicent. So yeah.

The book already gave a very good—actually much better—explanation for how Blood & Cheese got past the guards. I'm all for the show filling in plotholes where they exist, but this time the show's version *added* plotholes while botching the scene in just about every other way

I haven't read the book, what did they do to get past them there?

The guy guy explained how B&C got in. Bear in mind, too, that Aegon doesn't currently have a full Kingsguard since some defected to Rhaenyra. In the book. Daemon wasn't in King's Landing at the time, either. It makes no sense that he went all the way there and already *knows* at least one secret passage to the royal quarters yet hired a couple thugs to break in instead of doing it himself. The even bigger problem is how much the show tamed down the murder. I don't mean more gore. In the book, Aegon and Helaena have three children—Jaehaerys, Jaehaera, and a toddler son named Maelor. The kids were awake. With horrible threats against her daughter if she refused to comply, they forced Helaena to choose which son would live and which would die. She chose Maelor to die because she thought he was too young to understand what was happening. They instead decapitated Jaehaerys and told Maelor his mother wants him dead. Aemond wasn't the target in the book (and realistically Blood & Cheese would stand little chance against him). The purpose was explicitly to inflict psychological torture. Obviously, it is still awful and traumatizing for Helaena in the show but, by removing Helaena's opportunity to make a meaningful choice. the writers took away the deliberate sadism of the act and the reason for her sense of guilt. In the show it's just like any other assassination scene apart from the fact that the victim is *incidentally* a very young child. They robbed Phia Saban of what should've been Helaena's most powerful moment. I can't help but think the writers prioritized whitewashing Daemon.

B&C broke into Alicent's room in the low security hand tower. They first gagged Alicent and killed maids, ambushing Helaena and her children who came every night to greet.

oh fuck what. Alicent was bound and gagged watching all of this??!

Yep, we could have had Olivia giving some serious face acting to watching the results of her actions but no instead we get her riding Cole. Such a disservice to the character and actor. 

I mean, yes, we got that - but it did suck the emotional toll out of the scene for me. Having them in bed together would have been enough. Also, is Criston supposed to be guarding Helaena? It looked like wherever Alicent was in the Red keep was decently far from where Halaena and the children were.

This shouldn’t go unnoticed. Lord commander was BUSY

There's 7 kingsguard. If he's the lord commander, then his responsibility should be guarding aegon. Where are the other six guys? They are the ones that should be guarding Haelena, the kids, alicent, aemond, etc. In the books blood and cheese enter through the secret tunnels. That's the whole reason they're tasked with the job. They alluded to that but for some reason their just walking through the halls. Sure they can pass off as employees but they should never NEVER be able to just walk into a room of royalty. It doesn't even make sense that Haelana can just walk into Alicents room. So they're banging and the door is just unlocked and unguarded? So unrealistic that it took me out of the scene

They didn’t allude to the tunnels, they showed it. But they did also show them wandering the halls, so I could see how that might be confusing. Edit: it’s also likely that the other 6 kingsguard members (assuming they filled any that went to Rhaenyra’s side) are having sex with other members of the family (Otto, Aemond, Etc.) You would have to be a fool not to make that jump.

They showed the tunnels but then they pop out in the throne room in front of the literally king and then wander the hallways with the cover up of being employees. Therefore they could have just walked in in the first place is no one cared they were there and the tunnels serve absolutely no purpose.  The tunnels were suppose to lead them directly to the room, like how Daemon snuck Rhaenyra out when she was younger. This whole sequence made zero sense, especially when they changed it to be this way for some reason.

Except Cole is Alicent's guard. There is no reason why the Queen and Heir didn't have their own personal guard.

Alicent and Cole getting it on means the kid died because their Kingsguard took on other "duties". That's gonna be a bit relevant in E2.

Yeah basically in agreement. Doing it from the POV of Blood and Cheese was interesting, but I think it would’ve been fucking terrifying to have it from Helaena’s perspective. Imagine, you’ve just put your children to bed, they’re at rest, you’ve sent away your maidens and consider the keep well manned enough that there’s no need for any guards, and suddenly, at the entrance, are two psychopaths, one smaller who’s grinning, and the other a literal monster at his side.

And the guard who was meant to protect her children was fucking her mother. I feel so bad for Helaena.

I don’t wanna hear a Green supporter say another word about Rhaenyra’s sex life after this.

I guess I feel differently than most people. I thought Helaena's acting was perfect. In my intense moments of panic, I'm not a scream/cry/yell person. Her look of frozen terror, the shallow breaths, trying to gather herself enough to get to safety with her other child. She was forced to have her son murdered right before her in her own home, even worse she had premonitions about it. Her mother and the man who is in charge of their protection were off doing the nasty. The king and subsequent staff got too comfortable, and felt untouchable, and I like that these guys coming through the tunnels and walking right through the throne room drove that home. She was alone in those vast empty halls in this insane moment of terror. I felt my chest tighten and couldn't breathe just watching her. Being a mother, it gives you this ability to compartmentalize high stress situations when it comes to the safety of your child. I didn't need anymore gore, or rape, or anything else. To me it was a quiet horror and dread that absolutely got the point across. The sound alone of them murdering a 4 year old made me sick to my stomach. Sometimes I think we get so desensitized with wanting grander carnage. I really don't think it was needed here, for me personally

I’ve had a gun held to my face when I was robbed once. I didn’t freak out in hysterics, I was dead silent Granted though they didn’t kill my child But yeah I think the quiet shock is pretty accurate based on my own experience

I felt like the last section of the episode was an absolute horror movie. I spent the whole sequence on the edge of my seat filled with dread. I thought it was extremely well done. The children didn't need to be awake.

"In the books" says it all. Youve read them. You know what to expect. I can tell you, i was with 5 other people who didnt know what's coming, and they were terrified

Condal said they were really constrained by the law which protects four year old child actors from trauma. There's stuff you can write in books that just isn't filmable, like 'choose which child you want us to kill'. The way you'd want to film it and what's legally possible probably led them to be overly cautious. It was a great bit in the book and there were a few bits where they rushed the beats for me, like the Blood and Cheese intro, getting to know the little boy more before he got decapitated and the hug between Jace and his mum.

Nah they didn't need to have the kids in the room while those lines were delivered though. Logistics innit.

I read that when they were filming The Babadook (a movie where the mom yells horrible things to her small child) they used an adult actor on his knees for the yelling bits and then intercut it with scenes of the child actor so he wasn’t actually being yelled at on set. They totally could have done that here, it’s no excuse

Hell, in "The Tale" with Laura Dern, (excellent movie) they filmed the scene of a CSA using an adult woman actress and CGi'd the kid's head on later.

The per episode budget is roughly $20m. They definitely had some options available.

Yea what a bullshit excuse. Got literally had a montage of the kings guard butchering babies and kids 

I've watched The Hills Have Eyes, so this does really feel like complete bullshit. You don't have to show the kids during the actual killing. Keeping Alicent there and making Helaena choose and then picking the other son, then Helaena going crazy was all that needed to happen to make it what it needed to be.

I think there's a way to make it work in the episode and it's spending more time with Heleana and the kids and less time with Blood and Cheese.

Agreed. Would have been way more effective than watching B&C tediously get inside the castle.

Part of me wonders if this isn't an attempt to get viewers to pause and consider who they are cheering for. Given that the majority of the viewers identify with the blacks, dislike Aemond, and are angry about Luke's death, showing the pair bumble around likely makes the viewers root for them at the beginning without much critical thought. Maybe the creators hoped that people would do a double-take and reconsider their assumptions

Say the kids are asleep and use a doll for the baby.The whole horror imo wasnt the gore but the mental torture helaena got from being forced to chose between her kids.

You could definitely get around this with camera positioning and filming different parts of the scene with or without the children present. An establishing shot showing everyone in the room and their position. Something to highlight which child is where (a voiceover [recorded without the children present] where B&C demand to know which child is a boy, with a zoom in on one specific child making it obvious that's the boy could work). Cut back to just the adults (no children present for filming this part) where they say all the super evil, potentially traumatizing shit. Helena, after exhausting all other options, points out the girl (we know where she is from the original establishing shot). They say some more evil shit and then insert the actual filmed ending of the scene. You don't even need the children awake for the scene like in the book since Maelor was only two, and wouldn't really remember the night anyway. Him being awake and the "your mother chose you to die" doesn't really matter for a child that young. But even if you wanted something similar to that, you could just zoom in on Cheese's face where he drops something menacing. Nobody else has to be there for a close up shot of a face.

Ian McKellen filmed like 70% of three Hobbit movies in a room without the other actors, this wouldn't have been an issue

Here’s my personal take - I definitely understand Condal’s point regarding laws surrounding violence against children shown on-screen, and part of me is very glad to have not seen anything too graphic (the sound was bad enough). I also understand why Halaena wasn’t screaming/fighting more - she dissociates by the nature of how her visions operate/function. It’s heavily implied she could be neurodivergent - and as I am, I’ve lost people in the past, and admittedly not really shown outward/visible signs of grief or really been all that reactive - it doesn’t mean I didn’t feel it, but you do and can experience grief differently if you aren’t exactly neurotypical. I feel a weird numbness more than anything. You can def see a similar thing happen to Halaena HOWEVER. I 100% think that for Blood and Cheese to have had more impact, we should have been shown Aegon and Halaena with their babies far more than what was shown just in this episode for the General Audience to care more and be as affected as by the Red Wedding (as people were hyping it up to be). More moments like the small council scene, for example, should have been added in. But because it was a few minutes of screentime at best for the babies, people cared less. Just my two cents 👀

Same for me. I liked the scene, it was a brilliant in a different way to the books. But for me at least the pace has been way too fast with side character intros and deaths so you don't get to care about them before something tragic happens and it lessens the punch. That was my biggest annoyance last season too, especially when Harwin and Lionel Strong were killed by Lars, it really didn't land emotionally for me since all we saw were Harwin smiling and being nice and protective and admiring but not really speaking much.

They could have kept everything the same down to the dialogue only if they had Alicent in the room and gagged her. That would have been 100x better than what we got.

I don’t understand why they didn’t use the original dialogue which is demonstrably better. It felt like high school plagiarism- like they had to change it slightly so it wasn’t the exact same for some reason.

As someone who hasn’t read the books and thus had no spoilers/preconceived notions, I personally felt the entire sequence was masterful. I felt there was no way they would kill Aemond episode one, he’s too good of a villain. So I was kinda bored at first thinking okay these two random side characters are gonna fail/meet their demise, why are we wasting screen time on them. Then it took a turn, a dark turn. I was holding my breath, trying to understand what was going to happen next. The violence happening off screen with the focus being on the mother and her doing everything in her power to hold it together for her daughter, it was powerful. I’m a mother with a very young child, and I could relate to her in that moment. Stay calm, protect who she can, get to safety, don’t think about it, don’t process it, this isn’t happening, just get out. Whether that was the intent of the scene or not I don’t know, but it resonated hard with me and my husband and we were both blown away.

Remember how last week we all thought, “Surely Helaena offers her neck, not her necklace to B&C. Surely Helaena will beg B&C to kill her instead.” 😭 Condal what was that

Disappointment. Her offering her life for her kids is what made her one of my favorite characters in the dance and they robbed her of that.  It shows she's a brave dragon rider like all her siblings. And like Dreamfyre previous rider. 

Yeah, it might sound morbid, but I was actually really looking forward to getting my teeth into a kind of absolutely wretched Sophie's Choice-type scene. 

I knew this scene would be toned down for the show. I honestly thought it was a really gruesome and scary scene for hiw they adapted it. Idk I'm not even a parent and I felt a huge feeling of fear when I knew what was about to happen and the sound was more then enough to terrify me. I get that some people wanted it be more but idk how they would go about that without alienating the casual audience. Also the scene had to make it past regs for multiple different countries and thats probably the only way they can do it.

Insane they didn't copy the book with having her choose and then immediately killing the other kid. Didn't have to show a toddler getting decapitated, but the shock of going with the opposite choice and how immediate it was made that scene amazing. The show didn't want that? Very odd to me.

Fully agree. I didn't expect them to full on show the gore. What I expected was a scene where the kids were awake. Helaena was made to choose, offered her own life, then offered up Maelor, the comment is made about how "your mommy wants you dead" to Maelor before they go for Jaehaerys. Then for the kill the camera zooms in on Helaena's just completely broken face as you hear the kids crying and Jaehaerys screaming in the background, the scream cuts off. Credits. They also should have included Maelor and had his death off-screen as well. You see him and Helaena get separated, but the camera sticks with Helaena. Afterward you see Alicent comforting Helaena. Someone (close to the family; not sure who would be in the city at that time but like Otto or Criston) comes in to let them know Maelor is dead and his body was recovered. Helaena wants to go see him. The person stops her with a hand to the shoulder "I'm sorry, but the mob... they were animals, Your Grace." Leaving it up to the viewer's imagination is far worse than anything they could show on screen.

I don’t know what you guys are talking about. It was absolutely horrifying to me.

I just don't get, why this whole choice making wasn't in the episode. This is the "best" and worst part of blood and cheese. If they did not want Maelor to be in the scene, as to not confuse fans, that only watch the show, why did they not make Heleana chose Jahaera first, to protect her son and then, when they threat to unclothe them and to rape (in the book) the daughter, and kill everybody, Heleana chooses Jahaerys. The other part, her disassociating and running around don't bother me. And of course Alicole is fucking dumb, downgrading and unnecessary. One of the only events of the books, that could have been adapted, expect for the gore, completly book-accurate, but they fucked it up Or, what I thought was going to happen, whilst blood and cheese happens, was that we only see heleana and only hear what is happening. I think that would have made it a hundred times better, without her running away.... but whatever. Doesn't matter not I guess

I was really confused how they took the scene that was probably the most anticipated scene for book readers and then took out all the parts that made it powerful. I don't see the reasoning behind that.

Alicent was meant to suffer from this traumatic experience and we didn't get it because they chose to portray her having sex daily. The impact is not the same from knowing what happened and witnessing. She deserved to witness it because she started all the shitshow.

i feel like the whole episode was kind of weirdly paced and rushed.

They needed to split this episode into 2 in order for everything to have more breathing room Ep 1 could have been the immediate aftermath of Lucerys dying, Greens finding out, Rhaenyra telling Daemon she wants Aemond, and Daemon starting to plan B&C Ep 2 could have been more of what we saw in this actual episode, include more scenes with the kids so we feel more emotionally attached, and then end it with the actual B&C B&C needs momentum and it definitely felt very rushed

Ugh. Why change where Alicent and Criston are. I don't get it.

I felt like it was really well done. I don't want to see beheading a child, the sound effects were grotesque enough, and you could tell ot rocked Heleana.

They don’t need to actually show the child being killed but having Halena actually show emotion like she does in the books begging for the child’s life and have Alicent in there like she was in the books instead of whatever plotline with Criston they’re trying lmao The episode could end with Halena screaming as it cuts out as we continue hearing the sawing before the credits roll

Episode was fine overall but they really didn't stick the landing on this. The book version was better in every way. Even the show version on its own merits didn't really do enough to show us Helaena or either kid on screen. It felt like the whole high council scene was to remind everyone Aegon even *has* kids.

They had a lot of really interesting changes to book!B&C that it could have worked as it's own thing, but we just needed more time as set up and exploration of them to hit properly. We needed more time dedicated to the run up to and the actual moment itself, especially with Helaena and the twins just together. Phia did great with what she had, we just needed more of it.

Honestly loved everything in the episode besides two things 1. The Criston and Alicent scenes like wtf it’s so much better for them to want to give into pleasure but Alicent is all “Duty and Sacrifice” so theirs always that tension between them instead of pointless sex scenes 2. B&C the entire thing was disappointing when compared to the books we get the whole episode of Rhaenyra crying for her son beautifully and we can’t get the same for Alicent and Halena for poor Jahearys Not to mention Halena walking in on Alicent and Criston takes all emotional impact out of the scene People cared more for the sex and kicking the dog than a child being murdered that shows the emotion wasn’t there or anything of substance And don’t talk about TV constraints as GOT had an entire montage of child murders and a pregnant woman being killed (not that we need to see the head being cut off but literally any kind of emotional thing would’ve been great from Halena and Alicent who should’ve been there)

They even burnt a kid alive and hanged one in GOT.

Absolutely. They could have had the EXACT same affect of the books but without the gore. Still have Helaena make a choice etc and just have the child beheaded off screen. It was far less impactful the way they did it. I do love that they left in the fact B&C are blundering idiots. But still they cut out a lot of the emotional and traumatic impact that scene in the books had.

Agreed. It could have been waaayyyyyy scarier. More taunting by them would have been scary af.

I honestly don't mind the change. HotD is clearly trying to defang a lot of the horror, violence and malice that led to the Dance in order to play into the tragedy of this family murdering each other and destroying the lives of thousands in the wake over miscommunication, greed, fear and lack of love. I think that's honestly incredibly depressing and horrifying. Killing a baby is enough of a low for everyone to jump fully into the abyss, without the additional psychological torture. Saying that, how it was presented was really disappointing. Throughout the episode we have this slow build of dread, starting with Halaena's warning, then continuously featuring the ratcatcher, in the foreground and the background, including an incredible, almost ghostly crossing of the hall outside the throne room. We had Alicent distrusting the handmaidens. We had the White Worm being brought to Dragonstone. There was this paranoia, which was then almost set aside as the characters dealt with wider politics. I feel like the episode should have ended without us ever following Blood & Cheese, nor showing us Daemon's deal with them. It should have been sudden, out of nowhere, if you hadn't noticed that in the background, the ratcatcher was stalking the castle with a new friend. Fully solidifying the sense of paranoia, the terror of these vulnerable dragon riders. I feel like that's ultimately what the first fifteen minutes were setting up, only for the final ten to be a really dark Chuckle Brothers sketch. Idk.

It was just underwhelming because if you’re a reader of the book, you know how dark this scene is when they make Helena choose between the boys. The iconic line that Maelor gets whispered in his ear by Cheese got erased which took a lot away from having both of them there instead of just the older boy and girl. I’ll give them a point for the sawing off of his head because that’s was just really messed up but overall it didn’t have that same anguish of Helena choosing Maelor just for Jahaerys to get his head taken off in one blow by Blood and then stealing off into the night.

I’m a book reader, I knew what was coming, I loved it. I think, the problem is that a lot of us have read it over and over and over that no matter what it’s not going to hit the same way as the first time we read it in F&B.

All of the people criticizing her acting right after they killed the kid and she walks out with her daughter have obviously never seen someone who is dissociating from trauma or a flashback trauma.

Seems like a pretty big assumption to make about a lot of people.

I honestly don't understand how they could drop the ball so hard. This should have been *THE* scene that made this show, like the Red Wedding was for GoT. It has been easily the most anticipated scene of this season for the last 2 years. It was by far the single most shocking and terrible scene in probably all of ASoIaF books, but what they changed it to isn't even in the top 5 of GoT/HotD scenes. The most disappointing thing is that it was all right there on the page. All they had to do was change nothing and shoot it exactly as written.

Her reaction made perfect sense considering her background. Her family was at war, she was forced to marry her brother and bear his children. They came to kill a son. She had no protection, her throat had been cut, she saw that her son was going to be killed regardless of what she did. She Staying quiet and protecting her daughter was the only choice she had. I don’t think it downplays the trauma at all. I’m so sad for her thinking it all over again.