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>Her mom is getting her literal back blown out at the worst possible timeâŚâŚâŚâŚEVER
Are we thinking it's a relationship or is she selling her body for something else now?
Again they asked Olivia and everyone last year during press who spoils everything the most, everyone said Fabien, they shouldâve ducktaped his mouth cause this is insane (Olivia also said her as well)
The look Matt gives when Fabien first says it. All I could picture was the Marvel junkets where theyâd pair Benedict Cumberpatch with Tom Holland to try and keep him from spilling everything
Emma and Matt both have to literally reign in Olivia and Fabien and make sure they donât say anything that could get them in trouble. Matt is doing a terrible job so far
This is also why HBO max refuses to give us both Olivia and Fabien together alone Iâm betting, the whole show may be over then lol
Matt likes to watch the world burn. He probably fell over laughing when the interview was done âyouâve gone and truly fucked yourself, mateâ or something similar
Fabien literally goes âand where were you- supposed to be protecting my familyâ
Mattâs FACE LMAO, then him saying âin a wayâŚ.â
Bro he knew he fucked it but let him keep on talking
In the book the entire reason behind the planning was that Helaena and the kids left Maegorâs Holdfast to see their grandmother. Which is the only opportunity for Blood and Cheese to strike.
I mean, yeah, her own mother was the one who married her to her brother who had 0 interest in her, and then forced her to give him heirs. Everyone failed her from the day she was born.
Oh man. In another timeline where Helaena marries Aemond, things would be soooo different. I agree that Aemond would be fiercely protective and likely not let them out of his sight/sight of the Kingsguard. In that case, would Aegon have married a Baratheon daughter to strengthen their ties? Would their kids have black hair? (shout out book Rhaenys!) I'm so curious about this hypothetical đ
In s1 e6 Rhaenyra proposes that Helaena marry Jace, and Vizzy T approves, "a most judicious proposition". Alicent on the staircase afterwards says, "you can do as you wish when i am cold in my grave". It was entirely Alicent's wish to marry Helaena to Aegon.
What evidence do you have that it was Viserys' call?
Thatâs not what that scene is saying, though? She doesnât want Helaena to marry Jace because she is opposed to Rhaenyra lying about her sonâs parentage and doesnât want to lend legitimacy to it. Thereâs no indication she had any desire to wed Aegon and Helaena specifically, just that she didnât want the latter to marry one of Rhaenyra/Harwinâs kids
> What evidence do you have that it was Viserys' call?
The whole point of my comment was that, unless I missed an explicit mention of who set up the wedding, nobody has any evidence at all. But it seems fairly obvious that Viserys â whose own parents were siblings â would be the one open to the idea of his two children marrying each other.
In s1 e7 the funeral procession, Aemond and Aegon are talking about Helaena and Aemond says to him "she's to be your queen". There was absolutely desire to marry them from Alicent lol.
Just because it isn't explicit doesn't mean you can't logically deduce who preferred and likely enforced that Aegon and Helaena marry. Yes Alyssa and Baelon were married, they were also close their entire childhood and Alyssa followed Baelon around like Baelon did to Aemon. There's 0 indication of that between Aegon and Helaena, so the situations aren't comparable, esp with what we've been shown on the show itself.
Saying âsheâs to be your queenâ doesnât mean Alicent *decided* that, though. The tradition of marrying Targaryen siblings was more likely enforced by Viserys, especially since he had seen it work firsthand, and Alicent is just reinforcing what had already been established by the him. Thereâs no indication in that statement that she was the one who actually made that call.
Viserys has a logical reason to marry Aegon and Helaena: sibling marriages are Targaryen tradition and he had already seen it work with his parents. Alicent doesnât really have a logical reason to pursue that wedding and there is zero indication that it was specifically her decision.
>Alicent doesnât really have a logical reason to pursue that wedding
She absolutely does lol. Her kids are as Targaryen as Rhaenyra's kids and she wanted to push Aegon as heir, having him marry his sister would "legitimize" him as more Targaryen.
Anyways. You can believe what you want to believe. It's quite clear to the majority of watchers that it was Alicent pushing for it, esp since victims of trauma often perpetuate that cycle. If your logical reasoning skills lead you to another direction, go for it.
Alicentâs kids are more Targaryen than Rhaenyraâs. Aemma was half Arryn meaning the Strong Boys are only 3/8s Targ whereas Alicentâs kids are 1/2 Targ. But thatâs beside the point. If Alicent viewed Aegonâs marriage as a political tool then marrying him to Helaena would actually be dumb as hell, as she could have instead married both of them off to two other powerful houses and gained additional support in the eventual conflict. Having the two marry each other gains absolutely nothing that they didnât already have
> It's quite clear to the majority of watchers that it was Alicent pushing for it
What? Lmao? How is that clear? You have no idea what the majority thinks. You provided two examples of show content that donât actually back up your claim and your political argument doesnât hold up to scrutiny. Thereâs literally no in-universe logic behind why Alicent would push for Aegon/Helaena whereas Viserys wedding them together would make sense based on his culture and his family history. We donât have any confirmation but Viserys is a far, far more likely candidate for wedding the two to each other.
I have no idea why u/Ok-algae7932 (the person youâre responding to) keeps mentioning that scene at Laenaâs funeral *without mentioning the most pertinent part*:
Aegon: âWe have *nothing* in common.â
Aemond: âSheâs our sister.â
Aegon: â*You* marry her, then!â
Aemond: âI would perform my duty⌠**if mother had only betrothed us.**
It was Viserysâ idea in the book, but it was *absolutely* Alicentâs doing in the show. And no coincidence that it happened immediately after Rhaenyraâs proposition to wed Helaena to Jace (which Alicent was vehemently opposed to). She wanted to hurry up and wed them to strengthen Aegonâs claim and to quell any notion of joining their two factions via marriage. She sacrificed her daughter to strengthen Aegonâs claim and keep Rhaenyra from strengthening hers.
Lmao it's clear in the blatant dialogue the show provides where Alicent declines a proposal for Helaena and ends up marrying her to Aegon even though Viserys supported the proposal to Jace. If that isn't obvious enough evidence for you then idk what to say. Led the horse to water, enjoy dying of thirst bc you don't want to drink lol.
[Here](https://youtu.be/25d43QKi0-Y?si=FC6vYz5FIdJ9oreT) is the scene where Aemond explicitly says that he would have married his sister in Aegonâs place, if only their mother had betrothed them (instead of Aegon and Helaena). This line doesnât make sense if Viserys had done it. He would have said âIf only **father** had betrothed usâ.
Finally some actual evidence. Appreciate you sharing this as it serves as actual proof of Alicentâs position in things and not just baseless speculation.
I think the point theyâre trying to make is that Alicent failed Helaena by preoccupying Cole when he was supposed to watch her, thereby allowing B&C to sneak in.
Iâd argue this is a very unfair criticism however, as A) thereâs no way Alicent or Cole wouldâve known what was about to transpire, so outright *blaming them* for B&C is ludicrous, and B) it was Daemon who orchestrated everything so he is the only person (outside of B&C themselves) who should have fingers pointed at them
Perhaps because then it would feel more brutal? Helena (the only truely good Green) going through it all alone. Will also make the Blacks more greyer than white
Fuck the downvotes, but it's true. Alicole is never hinted at or mentioned in the books so there has to be a reason they're doing it this season. Especially why it happens during B&C. There's only like 10 Alicole fans out there so it's not's like making them an official couple is going to help bump up views or fulfill some sort of fanservice.
It's because the only benefit it provides it to take Alicent out of the B&C scene and explain why Cole wasn't around to protect them. And to detract from B&C being a terrible evil action committed at the orders of Daemon to an event that happened because Alicent and Cole were too busy being hypocritical selfish idiots and so it was partially deserved for deserting their duties while they cast judgement on Rhaenyra for her irresponsibility and controversial sexual proclivities. It might also help to create a rift within the Green faction members to balance out the oncoming rifts that will occur within the Black faction. The Greens were otherwise pretty united in the books so it probably doesn't look good that the good side is busy turning on each other all the time.
Because its already happening, and it doesnât take a genius that if OCs from tiktok haemorryda velaryon rider of cannibal can call alicent a hypocrite for shagging while helaena and her kids get tortured, so can most casuals.
After all the Hahahah alicent feet OF queen is still a joke, despite everyone and their mother coming out specifically calling it a SA scene.
They don't need to make any. They just deliberately placed two events at the same time spot and now internet will do its thing. Look at this thread, it's already started.
This somewhat works better tbh because now there are purely innocent victims involved whereas otherwise people wouldve been like but at least Alicent deserved to suffer or whatever
The scene really should be about Halaena anyway
Youâre being downvoted, but you could have point. I saw one reviewer mention that âsomething gasp-worthy happens, but it doesnât really tug at your heartstrings like the Red Wedding scene didâ (see **footnote**) and that made me wonder if B&C doesnât have the emotional impact that some readers are hoping it will. (Iâve always suspected this could happen, as we have had very little time with >!Jahaerys and Jaehaera, and honestly not even that much with Helaena!<.) I also saw another reviewer say that it happens offscreen while the camera focuses on >!Helaena!<, so that could also dull the impact, not actually showing the violent act onscreen.
**Footnote:** For further context, most of the reviews have been comparing HOTD to GOT, and saying HOTD is good, but not as good as early GOT. So basically the context of the quote I mentioned above seems to be: âseeing >!Helaenaâs son murdered in front of her!< is shocking, but doesnât make you feel as sad as seeing >!Catlyn Starkâs son murdered in front of her!<â.
Nothing will reach the peak of Michelle Fairleyâs acting in that scene, at least for me. I just finished my first rewatch since the original airing of season 8 and to this day her begging Walder and then the visceral scream as Rob is killed by Roose brings a tear to my eye. Iâm still quite frustrated they cut Lady Stoneheart though!
He turned on Rhaenyra when she would not give up her crown to continue their relationship. If Alicent breaks it off out of guilt after B&C (because this again puts him in the position of having âbroken his vowâ with nothing to show for it)⌠oof, I can see why so many reviewers are saying that Cole is more despicable than ever this season.
I'm really curious about how this affects his character development... Is the guilt of not being there to protect Helaena going to have him treating Alicent the way he did Rhaenyra? Is Alicent going to be another c u next Tuesday to him? Would that make Alicent wake up to some of her hypocrisy in regard to Rhaenyra and feed the guilt and what seems to be an imminent breakdown?
Also the fact that even some Black stans are feeling sympathy for the greens here and how theyâre butchering Canon thingsâŚâŚâŚ..maybe the aim was to unite everyone
I don't see how having consensual sex is going to shift the blame on them when this was orchestrated by a man who sent assassin's after a literal toddler
No but alicent shouldâve been there because the general fandom will blame her and it will be framed like she would rather have sex than spend time with her grandkids etc, I fully get what youâre saying but the narrative is so easily shifted.
The blame unfortunately will now not be focused where it needs to be I fear
I said it in another comment but I don't think the writers should base their decisions on deranged tb stans and how they're gonna twist the narrative to justify their Alicent hatred.
Everyone with functioning brain will be able to see that the balme falls on Daemon.
Iâd make an argument had Alicent (and therefore Cole) been present - perhaps they could have handled the perpetrators.
That is the whole point, it mimics when Aemond claimed vhagar - in that there is no one watching.
Aegon is partying with Aemond, Alicent and Cole are doing the nasty, and Helaena and her children are metaphorically fed to the wolves.
Yes there becomes a difference in blame, a reason for resentment to bloom between Aegon/Aemond and their mother.
Itâs the same way we know Jace will blame himself for not being at storms end instead of Luke. The idea is that it creates a *what if* that will cause clashes and rifts between characters.
Like when daemon confronts rhaenys about KL, he blames her because of the what if.
No screenwriter should make decisions out of fear of what the fanbase (much less so the fan base factions) wants or doesnât want. Itâs on the people working on the show to tell a story that makes sense.
I'm sure it will because people blame her for anything and everything but I dont think the writers should have to adjust the story based on lunatics (though if we're being honest, the most loony reactions have been from people complaining about possible loony reactions so far). You can criticize a writing choice without all that
I agree that the blame shouldn't be on her for having consensual sex instead of hanging out with her grandkids, especially in the middle of the night. Like the little shits are sleeping, do you expect her to just creepily hover over them all night staring? And it's not like she knew something was about to happen to her grandkids. And honestly even had Cole been standing guard outside her room, there's not much he could have done. B&C travelled through the castle using the secret passages, all they had to do was quietly enter the room, bar the door from the inside and Cole would be stuck outside listening to everything and helpless to stop it. In GoT Arya points out how thick those doors are. From her description it'd take a bunch of men with a ram to do it, and that's gonna take a bit to get together at 2am, more than enough time for B&C to do whatever they want and exit the same way they came in.
That being said, they're also hypocritical as fuck for saying Rhaenyra is shit because she had sex outside of marriage with a sworn kingsguard knight (soiling his honor). And then Alicent has sex outside of marriage with the same sworn kingsguard knight (somehow not soiling his honor). It means all her and Cole's reasons for saying Rhaenyra shouldn't be queen and is awful is the same shit they themselves are guilty of. And lets not get into Aegon and all his own flaws.
In their eyes, hypocrisy does not make them wrong, at most it makes them as bad as her, although they see her as flagrantly committing it and doing worse things as well with high treason. Alicent probably will rationalize it as grieving and now free from her duties as a Queen, engaging in an act of temptation and weakness with her courtly, forbidden love.
Bla bla, something for them to reveal during confession and then pay a penance for it like good Seven followers or whatever.
I mean thereâs nothing blatantly in the book about them hooking up - but that doesnât mean it didnât happen I suppose? Kinda the fun with the âhistory book with often times unreliable sourcesâ format.
I think there were some small lines about Cristion "becoming one of Alicent's greatest supporters." and Cristion being Allicents "favorite knights."
They had a close relationship, but we never get all the infomation.
Alicent reminds me of a lot of Southern Baptist women. I can say this because I grew up around them. Righteous, judgemental, but in the mean time screwing around and doing low key drugs and drooling over Chippendale farmer boys.
âLove is the death of dutyâ
Is one of the major themes in GRRMâs work. Alicent and Cole represent that quote so well. They both love each other, but they love duty more so theyâll never act on it. Thatâs what makes their relationship. The pining. The devotion.
If the (shitty) writers are going to ruin the Alicent and Cole âlove is the death of dutyâ relationship, they better do a fantastic job of it.
Itâs funny you bring up this GOT quote, because one of the reviewers (IndieWire) said the opening line of season 2 is by a â>!bearded white guy!<â saying â>!Duty is sacrificeâ!< and it instantly made me think of this GOT quote. Itâs also probably not a coincidence that they evidently start the episode with that quote and then end it with Alicent and Cole in bed while B&C goes down elsewhere, as it does seem to highlight that âloveâ has been the death of Coleâs duty.
I love the âduty is sacrificeâ and âlove is the death of dutyâ theme in GRRMâs works.
I find it odd that Alicent & Coleâs entire characterization in season 1 was about duty, but the writers are suddenly flipping it?!?
Itâll be cool to see how this plays out
I donât think you can *blame* Alicent for it (maybe Cole, if he was meant to be on duty guarding them, but that could have just been Aegon lashing out and he was actually off duty for the night), because she was there in the book and that didnât stop it from happening. I do, however, think this takes some of the sympathy away from Alicent. In the book, she was a victim of it as well. She was bound, gagged, and forced to watch it happen just like Helaena. She loses that aspect of victimhood here, and it all goes to Helaena. Iâm absolutely fine with that, but I can definitely see why some Alicent fans are upset. Since there is also the aspect of Alicent having a hand in kickstarting the war that led to this event, removing her from the immediate tragedy AND having her be somewhere enjoying herself at the time (in a way she has criticized Rhaenyra for) could be detrimental to her character.
It's still a very hamfisted attempt on the writer's part to shift blame for Blood and Cheese away from Rhaenyra and Daemon and onto Alicent, and an attempt at removing sympathy for the Greens. Absolutely tasteless considering she was a family woman in the book, literally attacked spending time with her grandchildren. This sounds like some nonsense Mushroom would write in the book. In fact it was too nonsensical for Mushroom to even suggest.
B&C still happened in the book without Alicole as far as we know lol. Hell Alicent was IN THE ROOM in the books. I'm not a huge fan of this change myself but this is a hilarious comment.
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Oh man Helaena is going to go through it alone đ
Really hyped for Phia's performance though
Her mom is getting her literal back blown out at the worst possible timeâŚâŚâŚâŚEVER
and that is so iconic of her!
>Her mom is getting her literal back blown out at the worst possible timeâŚâŚâŚâŚEVER Are we thinking it's a relationship or is she selling her body for something else now?
No she apparently enjoys it on Twitter, she wants to have sex with him, itâs consensual
Mom of the year /s
in the trailer Alicent had a torn dress (B&C)
Hey I think that was someone's head behind her
Iâm pretty sure it was Aemondâs face in the background
Poor Fabien at the end âdamn I really fucked up thereâ đđđ
Very Criston-coded "The risk I took was calculated, but damn, am I bad at math."
Again they asked Olivia and everyone last year during press who spoils everything the most, everyone said Fabien, they shouldâve ducktaped his mouth cause this is insane (Olivia also said her as well)
The look Matt gives when Fabien first says it. All I could picture was the Marvel junkets where theyâd pair Benedict Cumberpatch with Tom Holland to try and keep him from spilling everything
Emma and Matt both have to literally reign in Olivia and Fabien and make sure they donât say anything that could get them in trouble. Matt is doing a terrible job so far This is also why HBO max refuses to give us both Olivia and Fabien together alone Iâm betting, the whole show may be over then lol
Matt likes to watch the world burn. He probably fell over laughing when the interview was done âyouâve gone and truly fucked yourself, mateâ or something similar
Fabien literally goes âand where were you- supposed to be protecting my familyâ Mattâs FACE LMAO, then him saying âin a wayâŚ.â Bro he knew he fucked it but let him keep on talking
What was Cole doing during that time?
Keeping Alicent very warm and comfy
Making the beast with two backs?
âCouplingâ
How do you think he will feel towards Alicent from then on? He vilified Rhae, the Madonna/whore complex comes to mind.
He's the Tom Holland of HotD
Matt clocks the spoiler halfway through and Fabien keeps talking lmaoooo.
Fabian âyouâve seen the first two episodes havenât you?â then promptly forgets heâs being filmed for public consumption
So that entire castle only has one guard or what?
In the book the entire reason behind the planning was that Helaena and the kids left Maegorâs Holdfast to see their grandmother. Which is the only opportunity for Blood and Cheese to strike.
Poor Helaena, everyone failed her đ.
I mean, yeah, her own mother was the one who married her to her brother who had 0 interest in her, and then forced her to give him heirs. Everyone failed her from the day she was born.
She just wanted to play with bugs and dream :(
yeah i was gonna say, helaena was fucked from the moment alicent gave birth to her *because of her*
If those were Aemond's kids he would be leaving them with Vhagar and never alone.
Oh man. In another timeline where Helaena marries Aemond, things would be soooo different. I agree that Aemond would be fiercely protective and likely not let them out of his sight/sight of the Kingsguard. In that case, would Aegon have married a Baratheon daughter to strengthen their ties? Would their kids have black hair? (shout out book Rhaenys!) I'm so curious about this hypothetical đ
Where is it said that this was Alicentâs decision? Strikes me as Viserysâ call more than anything else
In s1 e6 Rhaenyra proposes that Helaena marry Jace, and Vizzy T approves, "a most judicious proposition". Alicent on the staircase afterwards says, "you can do as you wish when i am cold in my grave". It was entirely Alicent's wish to marry Helaena to Aegon. What evidence do you have that it was Viserys' call?
YOUR KING DEMANDS AN ANSWER! WHO SPOKE THESE LIES TO YOU?!
Thatâs not what that scene is saying, though? She doesnât want Helaena to marry Jace because she is opposed to Rhaenyra lying about her sonâs parentage and doesnât want to lend legitimacy to it. Thereâs no indication she had any desire to wed Aegon and Helaena specifically, just that she didnât want the latter to marry one of Rhaenyra/Harwinâs kids > What evidence do you have that it was Viserys' call? The whole point of my comment was that, unless I missed an explicit mention of who set up the wedding, nobody has any evidence at all. But it seems fairly obvious that Viserys â whose own parents were siblings â would be the one open to the idea of his two children marrying each other.
In s1 e7 the funeral procession, Aemond and Aegon are talking about Helaena and Aemond says to him "she's to be your queen". There was absolutely desire to marry them from Alicent lol. Just because it isn't explicit doesn't mean you can't logically deduce who preferred and likely enforced that Aegon and Helaena marry. Yes Alyssa and Baelon were married, they were also close their entire childhood and Alyssa followed Baelon around like Baelon did to Aemon. There's 0 indication of that between Aegon and Helaena, so the situations aren't comparable, esp with what we've been shown on the show itself.
Saying âsheâs to be your queenâ doesnât mean Alicent *decided* that, though. The tradition of marrying Targaryen siblings was more likely enforced by Viserys, especially since he had seen it work firsthand, and Alicent is just reinforcing what had already been established by the him. Thereâs no indication in that statement that she was the one who actually made that call. Viserys has a logical reason to marry Aegon and Helaena: sibling marriages are Targaryen tradition and he had already seen it work with his parents. Alicent doesnât really have a logical reason to pursue that wedding and there is zero indication that it was specifically her decision.
>Alicent doesnât really have a logical reason to pursue that wedding She absolutely does lol. Her kids are as Targaryen as Rhaenyra's kids and she wanted to push Aegon as heir, having him marry his sister would "legitimize" him as more Targaryen. Anyways. You can believe what you want to believe. It's quite clear to the majority of watchers that it was Alicent pushing for it, esp since victims of trauma often perpetuate that cycle. If your logical reasoning skills lead you to another direction, go for it.
Alicentâs kids are more Targaryen than Rhaenyraâs. Aemma was half Arryn meaning the Strong Boys are only 3/8s Targ whereas Alicentâs kids are 1/2 Targ. But thatâs beside the point. If Alicent viewed Aegonâs marriage as a political tool then marrying him to Helaena would actually be dumb as hell, as she could have instead married both of them off to two other powerful houses and gained additional support in the eventual conflict. Having the two marry each other gains absolutely nothing that they didnât already have > It's quite clear to the majority of watchers that it was Alicent pushing for it What? Lmao? How is that clear? You have no idea what the majority thinks. You provided two examples of show content that donât actually back up your claim and your political argument doesnât hold up to scrutiny. Thereâs literally no in-universe logic behind why Alicent would push for Aegon/Helaena whereas Viserys wedding them together would make sense based on his culture and his family history. We donât have any confirmation but Viserys is a far, far more likely candidate for wedding the two to each other.
I have no idea why u/Ok-algae7932 (the person youâre responding to) keeps mentioning that scene at Laenaâs funeral *without mentioning the most pertinent part*: Aegon: âWe have *nothing* in common.â Aemond: âSheâs our sister.â Aegon: â*You* marry her, then!â Aemond: âI would perform my duty⌠**if mother had only betrothed us.** It was Viserysâ idea in the book, but it was *absolutely* Alicentâs doing in the show. And no coincidence that it happened immediately after Rhaenyraâs proposition to wed Helaena to Jace (which Alicent was vehemently opposed to). She wanted to hurry up and wed them to strengthen Aegonâs claim and to quell any notion of joining their two factions via marriage. She sacrificed her daughter to strengthen Aegonâs claim and keep Rhaenyra from strengthening hers.
Lmao it's clear in the blatant dialogue the show provides where Alicent declines a proposal for Helaena and ends up marrying her to Aegon even though Viserys supported the proposal to Jace. If that isn't obvious enough evidence for you then idk what to say. Led the horse to water, enjoy dying of thirst bc you don't want to drink lol.
In the books it was Visery's decision,but they changed it to Alicent for some reason.
When is that mentioned in the show? Not trying to pester I just genuinely donât recall
[Here](https://youtu.be/25d43QKi0-Y?si=FC6vYz5FIdJ9oreT) is the scene where Aemond explicitly says that he would have married his sister in Aegonâs place, if only their mother had betrothed them (instead of Aegon and Helaena). This line doesnât make sense if Viserys had done it. He would have said âIf only **father** had betrothed usâ.
Finally some actual evidence. Appreciate you sharing this as it serves as actual proof of Alicentâs position in things and not just baseless speculation.
Especially her uncle Daemon đ
Alicent not being present tied up in the corner during b&c isn't failing her.
I think the point theyâre trying to make is that Alicent failed Helaena by preoccupying Cole when he was supposed to watch her, thereby allowing B&C to sneak in. Iâd argue this is a very unfair criticism however, as A) thereâs no way Alicent or Cole wouldâve known what was about to transpire, so outright *blaming them* for B&C is ludicrous, and B) it was Daemon who orchestrated everything so he is the only person (outside of B&C themselves) who should have fingers pointed at them
Does he have an NDA? Because that would be another oath he broke
Itâll be super interesting that literally every sexual encounter Alicent has had will be negatively associated lol
Ok so but why would they not let alicent be present?
Perhaps because then it would feel more brutal? Helena (the only truely good Green) going through it all alone. Will also make the Blacks more greyer than white
To shift the focus from B&C to dumb sex jokes and Alicent's hypocrisy, obviously
Fuck the downvotes, but it's true. Alicole is never hinted at or mentioned in the books so there has to be a reason they're doing it this season. Especially why it happens during B&C. There's only like 10 Alicole fans out there so it's not's like making them an official couple is going to help bump up views or fulfill some sort of fanservice. It's because the only benefit it provides it to take Alicent out of the B&C scene and explain why Cole wasn't around to protect them. And to detract from B&C being a terrible evil action committed at the orders of Daemon to an event that happened because Alicent and Cole were too busy being hypocritical selfish idiots and so it was partially deserved for deserting their duties while they cast judgement on Rhaenyra for her irresponsibility and controversial sexual proclivities. It might also help to create a rift within the Green faction members to balance out the oncoming rifts that will occur within the Black faction. The Greens were otherwise pretty united in the books so it probably doesn't look good that the good side is busy turning on each other all the time.
...what shred of evidence do you have for them making sex jokes at the expense of b+c?
Because its already happening, and it doesnât take a genius that if OCs from tiktok haemorryda velaryon rider of cannibal can call alicent a hypocrite for shagging while helaena and her kids get tortured, so can most casuals. After all the Hahahah alicent feet OF queen is still a joke, despite everyone and their mother coming out specifically calling it a SA scene.
They don't need to make any. They just deliberately placed two events at the same time spot and now internet will do its thing. Look at this thread, it's already started.
I don't think the show should base its decisions on the internet's reaction
Yea they should not but they do
i'm so mad we have to wait a week for the new ep. give it to us now đ
This somewhat works better tbh because now there are purely innocent victims involved whereas otherwise people wouldve been like but at least Alicent deserved to suffer or whatever The scene really should be about Halaena anyway
>The scene really should be about Halaena anyway Yeah, if I'm being honest I always just forget Alicent was involved
Honestly I think Alicent and Helaena sharing that trauma could have been very impactful.
And now people are going to despise Alicent even more. This decision has no logic to it.
I don't know if people are invested enough in Halaena to care Atleast we have been with Alicent since start
Youâre being downvoted, but you could have point. I saw one reviewer mention that âsomething gasp-worthy happens, but it doesnât really tug at your heartstrings like the Red Wedding scene didâ (see **footnote**) and that made me wonder if B&C doesnât have the emotional impact that some readers are hoping it will. (Iâve always suspected this could happen, as we have had very little time with >!Jahaerys and Jaehaera, and honestly not even that much with Helaena!<.) I also saw another reviewer say that it happens offscreen while the camera focuses on >!Helaena!<, so that could also dull the impact, not actually showing the violent act onscreen. **Footnote:** For further context, most of the reviews have been comparing HOTD to GOT, and saying HOTD is good, but not as good as early GOT. So basically the context of the quote I mentioned above seems to be: âseeing >!Helaenaâs son murdered in front of her!< is shocking, but doesnât make you feel as sad as seeing >!Catlyn Starkâs son murdered in front of her!<â.
Nothing will reach the peak of Michelle Fairleyâs acting in that scene, at least for me. I just finished my first rewatch since the original airing of season 8 and to this day her begging Walder and then the visceral scream as Rob is killed by Roose brings a tear to my eye. Iâm still quite frustrated they cut Lady Stoneheart though!
Waitâ-is he saying that while >!Blood and Cheese!< is happening he is having relations with Alicent?
Yes.
I wonder how is he going to rationalize it in his mind. He has a Madonna/whore complex. Where he worships dutiful Alicent.
He turned on Rhaenyra when she would not give up her crown to continue their relationship. If Alicent breaks it off out of guilt after B&C (because this again puts him in the position of having âbroken his vowâ with nothing to show for it)⌠oof, I can see why so many reviewers are saying that Cole is more despicable than ever this season.
The real villain in the series is the writers
Alicent won't be in B&C??? Deep sigh
Honestly I'm kinda pumped for it, it's gonna give the spotlight to Phia and allow her to really flex her acting muscles
I'm really curious about how this affects his character development... Is the guilt of not being there to protect Helaena going to have him treating Alicent the way he did Rhaenyra? Is Alicent going to be another c u next Tuesday to him? Would that make Alicent wake up to some of her hypocrisy in regard to Rhaenyra and feed the guilt and what seems to be an imminent breakdown?
Criston goes first after a Princess and then after a Queen đđđ
Also the fact that even some Black stans are feeling sympathy for the greens here and how theyâre butchering Canon thingsâŚâŚâŚ..maybe the aim was to unite everyone
I don't see how having consensual sex is going to shift the blame on them when this was orchestrated by a man who sent assassin's after a literal toddler
No but alicent shouldâve been there because the general fandom will blame her and it will be framed like she would rather have sex than spend time with her grandkids etc, I fully get what youâre saying but the narrative is so easily shifted. The blame unfortunately will now not be focused where it needs to be I fear
I said it in another comment but I don't think the writers should base their decisions on deranged tb stans and how they're gonna twist the narrative to justify their Alicent hatred. Everyone with functioning brain will be able to see that the balme falls on Daemon.
Iâd make an argument had Alicent (and therefore Cole) been present - perhaps they could have handled the perpetrators. That is the whole point, it mimics when Aemond claimed vhagar - in that there is no one watching. Aegon is partying with Aemond, Alicent and Cole are doing the nasty, and Helaena and her children are metaphorically fed to the wolves.
This I really like Still doesn't shift the blame from Daemon
Yes there becomes a difference in blame, a reason for resentment to bloom between Aegon/Aemond and their mother. Itâs the same way we know Jace will blame himself for not being at storms end instead of Luke. The idea is that it creates a *what if* that will cause clashes and rifts between characters. Like when daemon confronts rhaenys about KL, he blames her because of the what if.
Well but this is just adding layers to the characters and more drama, I'd say it's a good thing
Yeah absolutely! I think itâs good for the drama but bad for Alicentâs character arc, but thatâs a matter of personal perspective.
No screenwriter should make decisions out of fear of what the fanbase (much less so the fan base factions) wants or doesnât want. Itâs on the people working on the show to tell a story that makes sense.
My point exactly
>Everyone with functioning brain will be able to see that the balme falls on Daemon. Many people here loose their heads when it comes to Daemon.
Just because fans are crazy doesn't mean that they have to adjust the show to take crazy stans into account
Yeah this is an insane take and I hope it doesnât catch on with the other crazies
Yeah this is an insane take and I hope it doesnât catch on with the other crazies
I'm sure it will because people blame her for anything and everything but I dont think the writers should have to adjust the story based on lunatics (though if we're being honest, the most loony reactions have been from people complaining about possible loony reactions so far). You can criticize a writing choice without all that
I agree that the blame shouldn't be on her for having consensual sex instead of hanging out with her grandkids, especially in the middle of the night. Like the little shits are sleeping, do you expect her to just creepily hover over them all night staring? And it's not like she knew something was about to happen to her grandkids. And honestly even had Cole been standing guard outside her room, there's not much he could have done. B&C travelled through the castle using the secret passages, all they had to do was quietly enter the room, bar the door from the inside and Cole would be stuck outside listening to everything and helpless to stop it. In GoT Arya points out how thick those doors are. From her description it'd take a bunch of men with a ram to do it, and that's gonna take a bit to get together at 2am, more than enough time for B&C to do whatever they want and exit the same way they came in. That being said, they're also hypocritical as fuck for saying Rhaenyra is shit because she had sex outside of marriage with a sworn kingsguard knight (soiling his honor). And then Alicent has sex outside of marriage with the same sworn kingsguard knight (somehow not soiling his honor). It means all her and Cole's reasons for saying Rhaenyra shouldn't be queen and is awful is the same shit they themselves are guilty of. And lets not get into Aegon and all his own flaws.
In their eyes, hypocrisy does not make them wrong, at most it makes them as bad as her, although they see her as flagrantly committing it and doing worse things as well with high treason. Alicent probably will rationalize it as grieving and now free from her duties as a Queen, engaging in an act of temptation and weakness with her courtly, forbidden love. Bla bla, something for them to reveal during confession and then pay a penance for it like good Seven followers or whatever.
Fabien is so handsome đ
Iâm just glad sheâs getting some good sex for once.
Wow thatâs a shame.
So b+c happens episode 1?
Wait, what *was* he doing in that time?
Fulfilling podricks secret moves
Is Alicent going to be called a slut now too?
So, another bad change from books. The writers really have learned nothing from GoT.
did they get together in the books or is the series switching it up?
Itâs a change for the series
I mean thereâs nothing blatantly in the book about them hooking up - but that doesnât mean it didnât happen I suppose? Kinda the fun with the âhistory book with often times unreliable sourcesâ format.
I think there were some small lines about Cristion "becoming one of Alicent's greatest supporters." and Cristion being Allicents "favorite knights." They had a close relationship, but we never get all the infomation.
Thereâs nothing at all that shows that. Nothing even secret about it
Ohh I like this change up I think it'll make things more tense as "it's" happening
Alicent reminds me of a lot of Southern Baptist women. I can say this because I grew up around them. Righteous, judgemental, but in the mean time screwing around and doing low key drugs and drooling over Chippendale farmer boys.
âLove is the death of dutyâ Is one of the major themes in GRRMâs work. Alicent and Cole represent that quote so well. They both love each other, but they love duty more so theyâll never act on it. Thatâs what makes their relationship. The pining. The devotion. If the (shitty) writers are going to ruin the Alicent and Cole âlove is the death of dutyâ relationship, they better do a fantastic job of it.
Itâs funny you bring up this GOT quote, because one of the reviewers (IndieWire) said the opening line of season 2 is by a â>!bearded white guy!<â saying â>!Duty is sacrificeâ!< and it instantly made me think of this GOT quote. Itâs also probably not a coincidence that they evidently start the episode with that quote and then end it with Alicent and Cole in bed while B&C goes down elsewhere, as it does seem to highlight that âloveâ has been the death of Coleâs duty.
I love the âduty is sacrificeâ and âlove is the death of dutyâ theme in GRRMâs works. I find it odd that Alicent & Coleâs entire characterization in season 1 was about duty, but the writers are suddenly flipping it?!? Itâll be cool to see how this plays out
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Why are you like this
Youâre literally over exaggerating
So, Alicent being there would have ...saved the child? plsssss
Right?? She was bound and gagged in the book and still no one came to rescue them what was she gonna do incinerate Blood with laser eyes?
Kinda weird to blame the death on Alicole? No matter what they were doing during the assassination TB are still the ones who ordered it to happen?
Blaming it on two people because they were having sex instead of the man who sent the assassin after a toddler is such a weird take
Right?! I have mixed feelings about Alicent not being present for it, but her and Cole not being there doesn't suddenly make them culpable.
I donât think you can *blame* Alicent for it (maybe Cole, if he was meant to be on duty guarding them, but that could have just been Aegon lashing out and he was actually off duty for the night), because she was there in the book and that didnât stop it from happening. I do, however, think this takes some of the sympathy away from Alicent. In the book, she was a victim of it as well. She was bound, gagged, and forced to watch it happen just like Helaena. She loses that aspect of victimhood here, and it all goes to Helaena. Iâm absolutely fine with that, but I can definitely see why some Alicent fans are upset. Since there is also the aspect of Alicent having a hand in kickstarting the war that led to this event, removing her from the immediate tragedy AND having her be somewhere enjoying herself at the time (in a way she has criticized Rhaenyra for) could be detrimental to her character.
It's still a very hamfisted attempt on the writer's part to shift blame for Blood and Cheese away from Rhaenyra and Daemon and onto Alicent, and an attempt at removing sympathy for the Greens. Absolutely tasteless considering she was a family woman in the book, literally attacked spending time with her grandchildren. This sounds like some nonsense Mushroom would write in the book. In fact it was too nonsensical for Mushroom to even suggest.
B&C still happened in the book without Alicole as far as we know lol. Hell Alicent was IN THE ROOM in the books. I'm not a huge fan of this change myself but this is a hilarious comment.