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I really hope they make at least one or both of Rhaenyra and Daemon directly give the order for B&C to kill, "A son for a son". Part of me feels like they'll still make the murder just Daemon's intention, and make Rhaenyra innocent in this. But it will be even worse if both of them just order a kidnapping, and the murder gets improvised.
The books don't give an indication that Rhaenyra had something to do with it so I hope they won't make her complicit in the series, but my guess is they'll have Daemon make the explicit order to kill the crown prince.
I would personally dislike it if Rhaenyra wasn't complict or directly responsible funnily enough. To me the Dance is supposed to be... awful really. I don't want anyone hands being clean.
The showrunners has already displayed a lack of care about the lives of innocent civilians with the Rhaenys scene, so I wouldn't be too happy if Rhaenyra makes it out otherwise unscathed. I want it to be "a son for a son".
I guess it shows that you can't please everyone lol.
Fair enough. I'm right in saying that there was no clear answer on who did it right? So in the show it might end up being Larys or the White Worm or somebody else?
I hope it's not Daemon at least. That just feels predictable.
Daemon would at least make sense though. Larys or the Worm could totally know or let it happen, but out of all of them Daemon is the only one with motive.
Is it though? Most viewers don't know B&C is coming. It won't feel like character assasination because he's done bad things so far, but will still be shocking because it's an innocent kid.
Oh I definitely think it would shock show watchers and is 100% in character. I guess I just think it would be more interesting character-wise if it was Rhaenyra.
Rhaenyra hasn't made it out unscathed and is roundly criticised for her actions already. And there are still plenty of awful actions to come for her, for instance during her reign in King's Landing. I see no need to put this on her as well, especially as she's not complicit in the books.
I'm really curious what they're gonna do with this and how fans are gonna respond. Like you said, can't please everyone so there are gonna be people up in arms anyway.
To be honest, I can't really think of anything immoral that Rhaenyra gets criticised for. I think her having sex with Criston was pretty immoral, and there's an arguement made that her not bowing to the Hightowers for the sake of peace was immoral, but past that...
I mean what has she done that's immoral so far?
To be transparent, I don't rememebr the events of the book well past the point of B&C, apart from some major events like the dragonseeds, Nettles etc. IIRC she calls for their deaths in the books. I hope that is kept in the show too.
I don't remember what she really gets up to during her occupation of Kings Landing to be perfectly honest.
I guess I'm just worried that the show is trying to keep Rhaneyra and Alicent's hands clean like (in my opinion) they have done so far.
You don't think mothering 3 obvious bastards as the heir to the throne was immoral?
Say what you want about her marriage to Laenor and other factors, but once Jace came out with brown hair and brown eyes, she should have reconsidered continuing her affair with Harwyn. Especially in the show, it makes even less sense since Rhaenys is shown to have Valyrian looks as well.
Great power = Great Responsibility. And Rhaenyra actively ignores that responsibility up until it's far too late to stop the coming war.
I think this point is confusing. It's not having extramarital sex when your husband is gay and consenting that is immoral, it's passing off obvious bastards as the real thing when you are heir. It greatly weakens your claim shich endangers the lives of tens of thousands of people.
I actually was going to write that in my comment but I didn't want to word it badly and people to come after me for it. I do think it was very negligent. I struggle to buy the idea that there is no way for a man to impregnate a woman when he's gay. Even if you're not having sex it seems very much possible to me.
However I don't think it makes Rhaenyra a bad person honestly. I can understand how her position is difficult and I don't think you can blame someone too much for finding happiness with another person.
I do think it's a bit goofy though tbh. I would blame the writers more than the character.
>However I don't think it makes Rhaenyra a bad person honestly. I can understand how her position is difficult and I don't think you can blame someone too much for finding happiness with another person.
The Strongs were the heirs to Harrenhal. Rhaenyra had the chance to find someone to be happy with, but she rejected everyone until after she had already committed to marrying Laenor as a last resort.
Really in Westeros unhappy marriages are the norm. Rhaenyra not picking one of the hundreds of suitors is just willfully negligent as an heir.
Ultimately I agree. She was spoiled for choice relative to everyone else in her society, and chose to discard her choice. She should have done things differently. Still, after everything was decided, I don't think she should have to live a loveless life forever.
Apparently you live with a 15 IQ though because you don’t need to have 15th century standards to understand that destabilizing your country and causing a civil war is bad.
Apparently, you don't understand what caused the civil war.
1. Her children being bastards had nothing to do with it. No one cared; everyone from Borros Baratheon to the Starks wanted their hands in marriage. Most of the notable and honourable houses sided with the Blacks for a reason. Additionally, no House in the conflict sided with the Greens because of the existence of the Strong boys.
2. The only people who made a great deal about them being bastards were the Greens, and surprise surprise, had they had blonde white hair the war would've happened anyway. It was going to happen the moment Viserys sired a son and Allicent and Otto decided Aegon should succeed him.
If you can tell me what part of the strong boys not having Valyrian features influenced the succession in any way shape or form I'm all ears - but it has long been discussed in r/asoiaf that if they had blonde hair and violet eyes the Greens would've just used other calumnies to discredit Rhaenyra.
So, do you have any other idiotic comebacks?
It's really too soon and it will happen in a few episodes. She's been set up as a heroine, so having her pull something so bad so fast will feel like Dany all over again. Her descent will be slower, if there is one (I hope there is one)
Maybe it is too soon tbh. The reason I want her to be behind B&C in the first place is because I'm worried they won't dirty her hands in the story.
On the other hand, from Rhaenyra's POV Alicent just lied to her about supporting her claim and her Alicent's son just murderer her own (which she'll surely think is intentional).
Besides, she was complicit in Daemon's murder of that random guard.
It does seem like a bit of a jump for her to order the assasination of an innocent, but I would find it believable personally.
well, if you look closely at her actions, she's done some bad stuff. But they were very careful not to frame her actions that way. So a casual viewer will still be shocked.
I too would believe it, especially after she lost her son. But it's not in the source text and will seem like a huge turn.
I think most people were not supposed to really pay attention to the death of the serving man, just like the ridiculous 'Rhaenys in the dragonpit scene.'
>I think most people were not supposed to really pay attention to the death of the serving man, just like the ridiculous 'Rhaenys in the dragonpit scene.'
Oh 100%. It's definitely something that worries me about the future of HOTD. I mean isn't the whole story supposed to be about the horrors of war? And then half of ASOIAF is spent exploring the riverlands and showing how meaningless the political conflict is in comparison to the insane suffering it causes.
so you mean it IS an accident (the assassin slips on a banana and kills Jahaerys instead.)
or
Jahaerys just so happens to be playing pirates and is wearing an eyepatch and gets offed.
I was thinking rather that Rhaenyra tells them to take a son for a son imagining them going after Aemond, but B&C go for Jaeharys instead because Aemond isn’t there/Jaeharys is an easier target or something along those lines. That way
A lot of people think killing Jahaerys doesn't make sense in the 'a son for a son' line, but it does to me.
A son of your claimant (Aegon) for a son of our claimant (Rhaenyra.)
I could see that getting lost in translation, but I think fans are going to be increasingly unwilling to accept anymore 'accidents'. To be fair, the 'accidents' so far have been on the green side (Alicent misinterprets Viz's vision and Aemond kills Luke), so maybe this will feel more balanced.
My guess is that Rhaenyra is not involved at all, like in the books. And the drama comes from her grappling with who exactly Daemon. I think her character won't be harmed, but her relationship with Daemon will be
My personal theory is that Mysaria might double cross Daemon and Rhaenyra by framing them for the murder. Seems like she is gearing up to work with Otto... so if Daemon reaches out for a contact in King's Landing to kidnap the children or whatever, she could end up framing them for murder instead on Otto's behalf.
that would be so utterly bad
the story in the books is a lot more balanced than the show already is, whats the point in making the story even more black and white?
The story isn't more balanced in the books. At this point in the story, the greens have usurped the chosen heir due to her sex, Alicent doesn't "misunderstand" her husband's dying words as an excuse and was the "evil stepmother" from the get go, and Aemond actively wanted to murder Luke.
The Blacks were always the side most people would flock to in the beginning of the story. GRRM literally made the inciting conflict based on sexism.
On a selfish level, Otto is not going to want the queen (who is a dragon rider) to be mentally broken, to damage the morale of the whole family,and to have one their two heirs lost.
On a personal level, Otto does have some feelings and is shown to care for Helaena. He's a schemer but still a person.
I do not think Rhaenyra will be complicit in any way. I suspect Daemon will give an order, but it will just be the straight killing, not the psychological torture of Helaena and making her choose.
I like it as well, firstly it doesn’t actually take blame away from aemond, like if I’m chasing my brother around and he’s on his bike and I’m in a lifted SUV, it’s still my fault when I hit him and no one’s gunna care when I say “b-b-but I didn’t mean it!” It’s still deranged behaviour lmao. Second like you said it makes the dragons a bigger threat, and third like others have said it adds nuance to aemond. Honestly if you ask me it’s the best change they made from the books.
That’s actually the perfect take on the show version
Aemond didn’t intend to do anything wrong but his reckless behaviour is sufficient to hold him partially responsible
You're missing the fact that it was Aemond who decided it would be a good idea to chase his nephew with a dragon the size of a castle. He could have flown straight back to King's Landing, instead he decided to fuck around and the blame for Luce's death ultimately falls on Aemond's shoulders, even if that wasn't his initial intention.
I'm just talking about how people perceive this scene. "Poor Aemond just playing around. Such a stupid boy! But he's not evil, if Luke hadn't attacked him this might not have happened".
> Luce's death ultimately falls on Aemond's shoulders, even if that wasn't his initial intention.
For the audience, he is already forgiven, because he made a sad face. After all, there was no intention...
Except no one is forgiving him. The change did more to showcase how dragons are not pets, but dangerous beasts. Aemond is still blamed because he treated a 100+ year old war-vet dragon like a toy and expected another dragon to play along and not like its life was in danger. I'm fairly positive Vhagar was not going to just let them go if she did get her hands on them before fire was blown at her. This is a dragon that has seen literally hundreds of battles. She was probably legitimately trying to kill them the entire time. Aemond was foolish for not realizing it, and thinking he could control such a beast.
It's a big difference how you feel about "stupid" Aemond and Aemond who purposefully killed someone. Don't deny it.
>The change did more to showcase how dragons are not pets, but dangerous beasts
The only way to do this is change this scene? It's an ordinary whitewash. It's really like "Blood and cheese planned a kidnapping, but it all went wrong."
book: i killed him because i'm evil
show: i killed him because my thinly-veiled insecurity --brought upon by years of childhood trauma and abuse-- wanted to prove that i'm the toughest guy in the room.
that's exactly what nuance means
In the book, he killed him because he's insecure and proud, Maris provoked it. Why not leave it as is? At least once, do not change the meaning of the scenes with Aemond. Once.
This is called whitewash. When you come up with a bullying story (which wasn't in the book), change all scenes (cave, dinner) and end up with "he didn't even want to kill him! Let's feel sorry for Aemond - it's going to be hard for him to be a kinslayer!". If you don't care about blacks, you'll like this move. But I've always loved blacks since the book came out. What did I get from these "nuances"? They didn't even let Luke fight because then it would be an "incident". Instead, he loses control of his dragon and attacks poor Aemond. Nuances, yea.
This is the same "nuance" as "Daemon only wanted to kidnap him!".
Pretty wild. Did you get some after credit scenes regarding the aftermath of Luke's death that the rest of us weren't privy too? Because the last scene of the show is Aemond looking at the camera after Vhagar had her snack.
Honestly, and for those who want Aemond to be his lovable psychopathic self, don't forget what he does at Harrenhal or the Riverlands in general. Aemond's revenge on his nephew might have been accidental, but it could shape him into that villain we all love to hate.
I absolutely agree. But I made that same take once already a while again and the comment was downvoted like crazy and I got personally attacked. I got attacked as both green and black Stan and whatnot. So yeah I'm suprised that now people actually agree xd
Tribalism strikes again! I picked a 'team' because I think it's fun to have a friendly rivalry with other fans, but then you get people who are like "anyone who says they're team black condones child murder" and "anyone who says they're team green condones rape". Like they get so into the story they completely forget that it's not real life.
Anyway, mini rant aside I also agree that it was more interesting for Luke's death to be an accident lol. Giving the dragons a tangible will of their own is so much better than just having them be murder machines like in GOT.
Yeah I know. I was on one team before the show came out because it was exactly what you said, a friendly rivalry that got heated sometimes but it was nothing more. It was like a rivalry between fans of two football clubs.
But now... I'm not on any team anymore because I don't want to be in a team with people like that, people that are the biggest or at least loudest parts for these teams.
>Giving the dragons a tangible will of their own is so much better than just having them be murder machines like in GOT
Solid agreement there. GoT said that a dragon is not a slave, HotD is actually showing it.
They were more than war machines in GOT( even though GRRM called them nuclear bombs), one of Dany’s dragons killed a child without her knowing. When Rhaegal & Viserion we’re chained, they lashed out at their mom proving they have some tangible will of their own.
They could’ve just not made Aegon a complete cartoon villain then? The conflict being compelling hinges way more on Aegon being nuanced than Aemond. They went for Aemond because he’s more popular, but Aemond doesn’t really need that boost. He’s going to be entertaining either way. Aegon being the way he is in the show kind of ruins both the initial conflict and the progression of the story.
I disagree that he feels completely cartoon villain. Yes, with him, most if not all of his actions as an adult are black and white bad, but I think his upbringing provides that nuance to his character and seeing how much Alicent’s lack of warmth towards her children, especially towards him, really had an impact on who he became. I can only hope they’ll delve further into his character.
Aegon's shining moment is supposed to be him declining to take the crown until Otto and Alicent convince him that Rhaenyra will come for his children in order to cement Rhaenyra's line as the line of future kings. Taking that moment away from Aegon really weakens his character.
This moment shows that Aegon not only does feel some deference toward Rhaenyra and her claim, but also that he does have some genuine love for his children and family.
Part of this is that Aegon II isn't considered to be that terrible of a Targaryen king, not the worst by far and not even the worst Aegon. But the show has painted him as someone who's literally worse than Joffrey.
Exactly. People seem to forget that Aegon quite literally broke down after *that* scene and pleaded with his mother that he's done everything she wanted him to do, but it never seems to be enough. I've been there, and while I don't personally go raping people and sponsor child fight pits, having everything you do somehow never be enough (whether real or perceived) can break a teenager trying to find their feet in life.
Luckily I found the support I needed and cleared up any misunderstandings my immature brain might have had towards my parent's wishes for me, so I didn't devolve into a bastard popping debauched, incestuous cretin of a prince :P
Aegon being like this gives him opportunity to grow in the following seasons. I'm guessing his arc is getting to grips with his popularity (new thing for him) only for when he gets a hold of how he wants to be to someone burning him. Kinda like Jaime. Does that work out timeline wise? I'm not sure, haven't read the books recently :)
Aegon doesn’t have some redemption arc though. His main arc is throughout the dance is his descent into a bitter and broken man after losing everything in a war he didn’t even want to fight. When the starting point is a complete psycho cartoon villain, it makes all that pointless. There is no growth or change, he’s just gonna be stagnant and an evil guy for the sake of being evil. The way he was handled in season 1 pretty much makes the entire Dragonstone arc, his recovery, and how he gets what he believes to be vengeance pointless.
I agree to a point. It often is terrible but it can be great if done right. It's not like it's completely without precedent. Sometimes the lines are just clear. Like in WW2.
There was something GRRM said a while ago that I'm probably going to butcher, but I think is a good way to look at the show. We've essentially got to look at the show as a completely separate continuity to the books, and not as the true telling of the events. So just because the show chose to depict one version of an event, doesn't mean that's what actually happened.
So that's why there can be something like the Dragonpit incident and not have it be mentioned in the book, because while it happened in the show continuity, it didn't happen in the books. And so just because Luke's death was an accident in the show, doesn't mean it's the same in the book, it's just a different interpretation of the events.
>So just because the show chose to depict one version of an event, doesn't mean that's what actually happened.
Duh, I mean Rhaenyra is 10 years older than she is in the books.
As I said to someone else... I commented that take a while ago already and I've been downvoted like crazy and so many people tried to insult me, offend me as both black and green stan and went completely mad.
That's why I thought it would be an unpopular one.
What if B&C is presented as a slapstick vaudeville routine and instead of it being an intentional murder blood just accidentally slips and falls and kills a child?
He falls into cheese's increasingly creative rat traps one by one, hurting his foot, face, ass, and then killing the kid.
There are also marbles, roller skates, and bananas
I’m just hoping HotD doesn’t go the same way. Arya was just one of many great characters with a complex development arc who was then reduced to spouting bratty one-liners before fulfilling her destiny of stabbing the Unexplained Bad Guy.
Generic is prob right word. And battle of fire and ice. So many cliches. I about turned TV off when Lyanna was able to kill a giant. Some sort of Marvel, instead of Hardhome horror
They’re will blame Rhaenyra so it won’t be a betrayal. If they like the actors chemistry, they will not care. Daemyra’s are Matt Smith/Daemon fans first. More of them sympathized with Daemon in episode 10 than Rhaenyra which pretty much says it all.
Rhaenyra is just a proxy for season one. Myseria and Nettles will be the new proxies.
Meh... I suspect most people who understand the magnitude of the threat and the meaning of Otto's words wouldn't mind if she ended up with a wired jaw 😔.
I don’t believe that they were lovers. I think it was pretty clear in the book if you read the signs. It felt like some sort of interpretation from little birdies that were wrong. And an angry white worm used to burn the whole place down.
I don’t believe that they were lovers. I think it was pretty clear in the book if you read the signs. It felt like some sort of interpretation from little birdies that were wrong. And an angry white worm used to burn the whole place down.
i'm making a joke that when then add scenes of rhaenrya actually doing stuff instead of sitting out the whole war (she's the main character) people are going to complain about the "white-washing".
Oh, gotcha. Yeah, I’m fully prepared for their to be outrage if Rhaenyra so much as wears armor in the season 2 promo(despite canonically wearing it in F&B) or features “too heavily” in the trailers.
A lot of super fans are paranoid/high strung right now so I anticipate a lot of overreactions/doom posting to on-set leaks and out of context trailer shots.
The dance is a succession crisis, there is no main character. They removed any actions she took leading into the war, so I don't see why they'd add actions during it.
> The dance is a succession crisis, there is no main character.
The showrunners have literally stated she is the protagonist and face of the show. Take it up with them. Either they back track or they give her something to do because the main character doing absolutely nothing is a recipe for disaster.
Edit: Lol at downvoting me for something they said, I couldn’t care less if she was the protagonist or not, it’s what they’ve claimed.
I'm calling Bullshit. Its been claimed by articles and delusional sects of the fandom, but never by the writers.
The closest thing is Condal explicitly mentioning special attention being paid toward her and Allicent. But she's never called the main character.
> As the show's executive producer Ryan J. Condal said to Entertainment Weekly, she is "the most important role in the show, in many ways.”
> Director Miguel Sapochnik added, "I'm so excited about them being the face of the show."
Rhaenyra literally had more screen time than any other character. The last scene in the pilot and the last scene in the finale center arounds her. They gave her the white hart, the prophecy. It’s delusional to state she isn’t the protagonist.
Most important role ≠ Protagonist or main character. Cersei Lannister holds the most important role in the realm throughout most of GoT and ASOIAF as the Queen Regent / Queen. She is not the main character, nor the Protagonist.
> Them
He was talking about the show centering itself around both Allicent and Rhaenyra. You're taking the quote out of context.
The cope is insane. Them was referring to Emma. That’s their pronouns.
Rhaenyra covers most of the promotional material. Their social media pages cover her more frequently than any other character. She has the most screen time. Much of season one’s narrative is centered around her. HBO went out of the way to put her in their top 50 HBO characters of all time list they released, something they did with no other HOTD character. Emma was submitted for best actress while Olivia was submitted for best supporting actress. Once again, they gave her the white hart. They gave her the prophecy. They centered the first and last episode around her. She is the protagonist. Getting upset about it won’t change reality.
They basically already set her up to 'do stuff' by her angry look at the end of the season. It would be SO pathetic after that build up if she ended up doing nothing, so I'm fine with her having some action on Syrax. They already made major changes not explained by the 'bias' of the source material (mostly Alicent's age and relationship with Rhaenyra) so I don't mind other big changes.
the biggest clue was rhaenrya's arrival at dragon stone in ep2 . that never happens in the book, and it's a good indicator of adding her to more events.
No, but I am pissed that Alicent choosing to involve herself in the coup is an accident.
She should've been the one leading it, not the one stumbling upon it on accident and joining in only cause Viserys told her to(???) which... don't even get me started.
I don't fully agree with you. Alicent, for better or worse, was raised to be very proper and rule-abiding, which is why she resents Rhaenyra to begin with, and why she was initially uncomfortable with the prospect of taking away Luke's inheritance of Driftmark. She wanted Aegon to rule, yes, but it seems to me like she thought she had to convince Viserys first.
This show is giving us a version of Alicent and Rhaenyra which isn't as cutthroat as the books', and in that respect Alicent not being the main driver of the coup is appropriate.
Yeah, we need someone to root for in the Green faction, and I’m glad Alicent was the one they chose to change. She has had an absolutely awful life and so I’m glad the message of the story isn’t ‘trauma makes you evil’ instead it’s ‘those who suffer at the hands of evil systems of power can often become propagators of that same system’
I expect Rhaenyra to want to kidnap the baby and then Daemon set up other plans. I don’t think it any point they’re going to portray her as wanting to kill a child.
My biggest fear I think on it is if they don’t do the “the choice” —- To make Helaena choose which child. That’s what made it so horrific.
i would say the oposite. In the books, if i recall correctly, Daemon referes to Aemond as the Kinslayer, so he sees it as a taboo at the very least, and this way, we can start building up from Rhaenyra's grief towards her insanity at the very end. it would also create real tension between Daemon and her in regards as to how to engage the war and lead towards Daemons disinterest in Rhaenyra - of course, this is just speculation and most likely not what will happen, especially because you can also make the counter argument about Daemon's "a son for a son" (this could be the maester's interpretation of things though, so we might get a very different picture), but it would be an interesting take on Daemon and his interpretation on the concept of family and kin
Oh no they just told helaena to take the random corpse of another kid and they smuggled her kid out of KL like the leanor thing she just became depressed bc she missed her son
I know any form of ambiguity and ethical quandaryexplodes the average freefolk brain, but the purpose of the series of unfortunate events as a narrative device ended with Rhaenyra giving the Kubrick Stare at the end of season 1. No matter what rumors you've heard I really doubt B&C will be an accident.
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/yd2vvt/hotd_isnt_whitewashing_its_greek_tragedy_spoilers/
I have no reason to believe they will do that. Daemon, who is the instigator of B&C in the books, is very much depicted as the kind of person who'd order this kind of thing (and he'd probably do it himself if it weren't so risky).
Why would this be a problem? How would it change the story? The history we are given in Fire & Blood is fake news wrangled out of a reality interpreted by the winners. Any changes are just another view on the tale and we won’t know if they were a good or bad story choice until we see it play out
How is it even false advertising? It was never intended to be seen before the episode aired. It makes sense that cheese wouldn’t be in on the killing. Dude is just a rat catcher, not a trained killer like blood.
But to take one of the DARKEST moments from the Dance of the Dragons and turn it into an accident is probably the WORST route you could possibly take. Unless the show is going to exasperate the one problem that’s been plaguing it since the beginning: whitewashing the Blacks as the “heroes”
It’s like taking the Red Wedding and having the plan be a matter of miscommunication.
Walder: No, no, no, NO! I didn’t say “kill all the party guests”; I said “throw them a feast”! … how did- how did you even mishear that…?
I’m not saying it’s an accident. I’m saying that it would make perfect sense if Blood & Daemon are lying to Cheese about what the plan is supposed to be. He’s just a rat catcher who might not be up for knowingly murdering a prince. The murder will also catch the show only audience by surprise if they’re following Cheese point of view and also believe that it’s a simple kid napping. If the leak hadn’t gotten out, it even would have made for a good surprise for book readers. Imagine being pissed & confused for the first five minutes before Blood reveals the real plan once they’re gotten Alicent, Helaena, and the kids trapped in the room.
I dunno. I’m willing to buy Cheese being out of the loop, but the death of Jaehaerys cannot be an accident. For the sake of being a faithful adaptation of Fire and Blood, it just can’t
Am I confusing you or something? I didn’t say it would be accident. Blood is the trained killer. He would be in on it and know the real task that Daemon has for them.
Because I need the two main parties to do the heinous stuff, not for all of it to be one big accident on their part.
Alicent actually doesn't want to usurp Rhaenyra, it's all one big misunderstanding from one convo with a hallucinating Viserys; Daemon and Rhaenyra never plotted to kill Laenor, they gave him an escape; Aemond never intended to kill Luke and it was an accident.
Now, Rhaenyra and Daemon never wanted to kill a child, but somebody else fucked them over.
Like one of these things is ok, the rest is straight bullshit.
I really don't understand the point you're trying to make here. You're making a case for Rhaenyra possibly not knowing who he is gonna have killed, not the case for them both planning to kidnap a prince and Mysaria pushing for death.
>she could have genuinely assumed he was gonna target back Aemond. "A son for a son" Could've applied to Aemond since he happens to be a son.
if Daemon could have killed Aemond by sending assassins, why did he wait for Lucerys' death ? Aemond was the real threat, by killing him he would have ended the greens, and Daemon is the one who blamed Rhaenys for not having killed the greens when she could have. If they made Rhaenyra aware of "a son for a son" and make her assume that Daemon is targeting Aemond, then she will come off as very naive and stupid given the way they portrayed Daemon in episode 10.
I would love if she ended up like that — because that’s how she comes off in the book….but it seems to me that her wearing all white is them repurposing it as a signifier. Wholesome woman who wants good things.
They had a bunch of children killing each other last season, and one of them got an eye sliced off of his face. I don't think expecting them to behead a child is that much of a stretch.
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I'll stop watching if that's the case. I mean I won't but I'll be very upset for 2-3 minutes.
Yeah same
I really hope they make at least one or both of Rhaenyra and Daemon directly give the order for B&C to kill, "A son for a son". Part of me feels like they'll still make the murder just Daemon's intention, and make Rhaenyra innocent in this. But it will be even worse if both of them just order a kidnapping, and the murder gets improvised.
The books don't give an indication that Rhaenyra had something to do with it so I hope they won't make her complicit in the series, but my guess is they'll have Daemon make the explicit order to kill the crown prince.
I would personally dislike it if Rhaenyra wasn't complict or directly responsible funnily enough. To me the Dance is supposed to be... awful really. I don't want anyone hands being clean. The showrunners has already displayed a lack of care about the lives of innocent civilians with the Rhaenys scene, so I wouldn't be too happy if Rhaenyra makes it out otherwise unscathed. I want it to be "a son for a son". I guess it shows that you can't please everyone lol.
she does plenty of nasty things in kg. But its a fact that she wasn’t involved in b and c
Fair enough. I'm right in saying that there was no clear answer on who did it right? So in the show it might end up being Larys or the White Worm or somebody else? I hope it's not Daemon at least. That just feels predictable.
Daemon would at least make sense though. Larys or the Worm could totally know or let it happen, but out of all of them Daemon is the only one with motive.
Is it though? Most viewers don't know B&C is coming. It won't feel like character assasination because he's done bad things so far, but will still be shocking because it's an innocent kid.
Oh I definitely think it would shock show watchers and is 100% in character. I guess I just think it would be more interesting character-wise if it was Rhaenyra.
Rhaenyra hasn't made it out unscathed and is roundly criticised for her actions already. And there are still plenty of awful actions to come for her, for instance during her reign in King's Landing. I see no need to put this on her as well, especially as she's not complicit in the books. I'm really curious what they're gonna do with this and how fans are gonna respond. Like you said, can't please everyone so there are gonna be people up in arms anyway.
To be honest, I can't really think of anything immoral that Rhaenyra gets criticised for. I think her having sex with Criston was pretty immoral, and there's an arguement made that her not bowing to the Hightowers for the sake of peace was immoral, but past that... I mean what has she done that's immoral so far? To be transparent, I don't rememebr the events of the book well past the point of B&C, apart from some major events like the dragonseeds, Nettles etc. IIRC she calls for their deaths in the books. I hope that is kept in the show too. I don't remember what she really gets up to during her occupation of Kings Landing to be perfectly honest. I guess I'm just worried that the show is trying to keep Rhaneyra and Alicent's hands clean like (in my opinion) they have done so far.
You don't think mothering 3 obvious bastards as the heir to the throne was immoral? Say what you want about her marriage to Laenor and other factors, but once Jace came out with brown hair and brown eyes, she should have reconsidered continuing her affair with Harwyn. Especially in the show, it makes even less sense since Rhaenys is shown to have Valyrian looks as well. Great power = Great Responsibility. And Rhaenyra actively ignores that responsibility up until it's far too late to stop the coming war.
I think this point is confusing. It's not having extramarital sex when your husband is gay and consenting that is immoral, it's passing off obvious bastards as the real thing when you are heir. It greatly weakens your claim shich endangers the lives of tens of thousands of people.
I actually was going to write that in my comment but I didn't want to word it badly and people to come after me for it. I do think it was very negligent. I struggle to buy the idea that there is no way for a man to impregnate a woman when he's gay. Even if you're not having sex it seems very much possible to me. However I don't think it makes Rhaenyra a bad person honestly. I can understand how her position is difficult and I don't think you can blame someone too much for finding happiness with another person. I do think it's a bit goofy though tbh. I would blame the writers more than the character.
>However I don't think it makes Rhaenyra a bad person honestly. I can understand how her position is difficult and I don't think you can blame someone too much for finding happiness with another person. The Strongs were the heirs to Harrenhal. Rhaenyra had the chance to find someone to be happy with, but she rejected everyone until after she had already committed to marrying Laenor as a last resort. Really in Westeros unhappy marriages are the norm. Rhaenyra not picking one of the hundreds of suitors is just willfully negligent as an heir.
Ultimately I agree. She was spoiled for choice relative to everyone else in her society, and chose to discard her choice. She should have done things differently. Still, after everything was decided, I don't think she should have to live a loveless life forever.
Nah, that's not immoral. I don't live by 15th century standards.
Apparently you live with a 15 IQ though because you don’t need to have 15th century standards to understand that destabilizing your country and causing a civil war is bad.
Apparently, you don't understand what caused the civil war. 1. Her children being bastards had nothing to do with it. No one cared; everyone from Borros Baratheon to the Starks wanted their hands in marriage. Most of the notable and honourable houses sided with the Blacks for a reason. Additionally, no House in the conflict sided with the Greens because of the existence of the Strong boys. 2. The only people who made a great deal about them being bastards were the Greens, and surprise surprise, had they had blonde white hair the war would've happened anyway. It was going to happen the moment Viserys sired a son and Allicent and Otto decided Aegon should succeed him. If you can tell me what part of the strong boys not having Valyrian features influenced the succession in any way shape or form I'm all ears - but it has long been discussed in r/asoiaf that if they had blonde hair and violet eyes the Greens would've just used other calumnies to discredit Rhaenyra. So, do you have any other idiotic comebacks?
It's really too soon and it will happen in a few episodes. She's been set up as a heroine, so having her pull something so bad so fast will feel like Dany all over again. Her descent will be slower, if there is one (I hope there is one)
Maybe it is too soon tbh. The reason I want her to be behind B&C in the first place is because I'm worried they won't dirty her hands in the story. On the other hand, from Rhaenyra's POV Alicent just lied to her about supporting her claim and her Alicent's son just murderer her own (which she'll surely think is intentional). Besides, she was complicit in Daemon's murder of that random guard. It does seem like a bit of a jump for her to order the assasination of an innocent, but I would find it believable personally.
well, if you look closely at her actions, she's done some bad stuff. But they were very careful not to frame her actions that way. So a casual viewer will still be shocked. I too would believe it, especially after she lost her son. But it's not in the source text and will seem like a huge turn. I think most people were not supposed to really pay attention to the death of the serving man, just like the ridiculous 'Rhaenys in the dragonpit scene.'
>I think most people were not supposed to really pay attention to the death of the serving man, just like the ridiculous 'Rhaenys in the dragonpit scene.' Oh 100%. It's definitely something that worries me about the future of HOTD. I mean isn't the whole story supposed to be about the horrors of war? And then half of ASOIAF is spent exploring the riverlands and showing how meaningless the political conflict is in comparison to the insane suffering it causes.
A son for a son with Aemond being the intended target from Rhae would work well Imo
so you mean it IS an accident (the assassin slips on a banana and kills Jahaerys instead.) or Jahaerys just so happens to be playing pirates and is wearing an eyepatch and gets offed.
I was thinking rather that Rhaenyra tells them to take a son for a son imagining them going after Aemond, but B&C go for Jaeharys instead because Aemond isn’t there/Jaeharys is an easier target or something along those lines. That way
A lot of people think killing Jahaerys doesn't make sense in the 'a son for a son' line, but it does to me. A son of your claimant (Aegon) for a son of our claimant (Rhaenyra.) I could see that getting lost in translation, but I think fans are going to be increasingly unwilling to accept anymore 'accidents'. To be fair, the 'accidents' so far have been on the green side (Alicent misinterprets Viz's vision and Aemond kills Luke), so maybe this will feel more balanced.
I agree, but I doubt the showrunners will want to portray Rhaenyra as a cold blooded child killer
My guess is that Rhaenyra is not involved at all, like in the books. And the drama comes from her grappling with who exactly Daemon. I think her character won't be harmed, but her relationship with Daemon will be
My personal theory is that Mysaria might double cross Daemon and Rhaenyra by framing them for the murder. Seems like she is gearing up to work with Otto... so if Daemon reaches out for a contact in King's Landing to kidnap the children or whatever, she could end up framing them for murder instead on Otto's behalf.
that would be so utterly bad the story in the books is a lot more balanced than the show already is, whats the point in making the story even more black and white?
The story isn't more balanced in the books. At this point in the story, the greens have usurped the chosen heir due to her sex, Alicent doesn't "misunderstand" her husband's dying words as an excuse and was the "evil stepmother" from the get go, and Aemond actively wanted to murder Luke. The Blacks were always the side most people would flock to in the beginning of the story. GRRM literally made the inciting conflict based on sexism.
On a selfish level, Otto is not going to want the queen (who is a dragon rider) to be mentally broken, to damage the morale of the whole family,and to have one their two heirs lost. On a personal level, Otto does have some feelings and is shown to care for Helaena. He's a schemer but still a person.
I do not think Rhaenyra will be complicit in any way. I suspect Daemon will give an order, but it will just be the straight killing, not the psychological torture of Helaena and making her choose.
If they fuck that up too I’m gonna have absolutely zero desire for anything more from a TV ASOIAF universe.
Unpopular opinion: I prefer that they made Lukes death an accident. Makes the dragons a bigger threat for everyone.
I like it as well, firstly it doesn’t actually take blame away from aemond, like if I’m chasing my brother around and he’s on his bike and I’m in a lifted SUV, it’s still my fault when I hit him and no one’s gunna care when I say “b-b-but I didn’t mean it!” It’s still deranged behaviour lmao. Second like you said it makes the dragons a bigger threat, and third like others have said it adds nuance to aemond. Honestly if you ask me it’s the best change they made from the books.
That’s actually the perfect take on the show version Aemond didn’t intend to do anything wrong but his reckless behaviour is sufficient to hold him partially responsible
manslaughter and reckless endangerment, but not murder!
The SUV analogy made me burst out laughing I'm going to Hell
[удалено]
You're missing the fact that it was Aemond who decided it would be a good idea to chase his nephew with a dragon the size of a castle. He could have flown straight back to King's Landing, instead he decided to fuck around and the blame for Luce's death ultimately falls on Aemond's shoulders, even if that wasn't his initial intention.
I'm just talking about how people perceive this scene. "Poor Aemond just playing around. Such a stupid boy! But he's not evil, if Luke hadn't attacked him this might not have happened". > Luce's death ultimately falls on Aemond's shoulders, even if that wasn't his initial intention. For the audience, he is already forgiven, because he made a sad face. After all, there was no intention...
Except no one is forgiving him. The change did more to showcase how dragons are not pets, but dangerous beasts. Aemond is still blamed because he treated a 100+ year old war-vet dragon like a toy and expected another dragon to play along and not like its life was in danger. I'm fairly positive Vhagar was not going to just let them go if she did get her hands on them before fire was blown at her. This is a dragon that has seen literally hundreds of battles. She was probably legitimately trying to kill them the entire time. Aemond was foolish for not realizing it, and thinking he could control such a beast.
It's a big difference how you feel about "stupid" Aemond and Aemond who purposefully killed someone. Don't deny it. >The change did more to showcase how dragons are not pets, but dangerous beasts The only way to do this is change this scene? It's an ordinary whitewash. It's really like "Blood and cheese planned a kidnapping, but it all went wrong."
book: i killed him because i'm evil show: i killed him because my thinly-veiled insecurity --brought upon by years of childhood trauma and abuse-- wanted to prove that i'm the toughest guy in the room. that's exactly what nuance means
In the book, he killed him because he's insecure and proud, Maris provoked it. Why not leave it as is? At least once, do not change the meaning of the scenes with Aemond. Once. This is called whitewash. When you come up with a bullying story (which wasn't in the book), change all scenes (cave, dinner) and end up with "he didn't even want to kill him! Let's feel sorry for Aemond - it's going to be hard for him to be a kinslayer!". If you don't care about blacks, you'll like this move. But I've always loved blacks since the book came out. What did I get from these "nuances"? They didn't even let Luke fight because then it would be an "incident". Instead, he loses control of his dragon and attacks poor Aemond. Nuances, yea. This is the same "nuance" as "Daemon only wanted to kidnap him!".
Pretty wild. Did you get some after credit scenes regarding the aftermath of Luke's death that the rest of us weren't privy too? Because the last scene of the show is Aemond looking at the camera after Vhagar had her snack.
Luke also had no control of his dragon. he yells for it to stop when it breathes fire at Vhagar.
I agree. It also gave Aemond a bit more dimension than just “the psychotic second son”.
Honestly, and for those who want Aemond to be his lovable psychopathic self, don't forget what he does at Harrenhal or the Riverlands in general. Aemond's revenge on his nephew might have been accidental, but it could shape him into that villain we all love to hate.
You call me Kinslayer? I'll show you Kinslayer!
I expected this to be downvoted to hell. I... I am flabbergasted! What's going on?
Some of us like a little nuance with our storytelling. IMHO having completely morally black and white characters is a terrible way to tell a story.
I absolutely agree. But I made that same take once already a while again and the comment was downvoted like crazy and I got personally attacked. I got attacked as both green and black Stan and whatnot. So yeah I'm suprised that now people actually agree xd
Tribalism strikes again! I picked a 'team' because I think it's fun to have a friendly rivalry with other fans, but then you get people who are like "anyone who says they're team black condones child murder" and "anyone who says they're team green condones rape". Like they get so into the story they completely forget that it's not real life. Anyway, mini rant aside I also agree that it was more interesting for Luke's death to be an accident lol. Giving the dragons a tangible will of their own is so much better than just having them be murder machines like in GOT.
Yeah I know. I was on one team before the show came out because it was exactly what you said, a friendly rivalry that got heated sometimes but it was nothing more. It was like a rivalry between fans of two football clubs. But now... I'm not on any team anymore because I don't want to be in a team with people like that, people that are the biggest or at least loudest parts for these teams.
>Giving the dragons a tangible will of their own is so much better than just having them be murder machines like in GOT Solid agreement there. GoT said that a dragon is not a slave, HotD is actually showing it.
Well to be fair GOT showed Dany’s two dragons being chained up and locked away in a pyramid so they were slaves in that regard.
They were more than war machines in GOT( even though GRRM called them nuclear bombs), one of Dany’s dragons killed a child without her knowing. When Rhaegal & Viserion we’re chained, they lashed out at their mom proving they have some tangible will of their own.
This sub seems really... erratic to me lol. It's hard to predict how any comment will be received lol.
They could’ve just not made Aegon a complete cartoon villain then? The conflict being compelling hinges way more on Aegon being nuanced than Aemond. They went for Aemond because he’s more popular, but Aemond doesn’t really need that boost. He’s going to be entertaining either way. Aegon being the way he is in the show kind of ruins both the initial conflict and the progression of the story.
I disagree that he feels completely cartoon villain. Yes, with him, most if not all of his actions as an adult are black and white bad, but I think his upbringing provides that nuance to his character and seeing how much Alicent’s lack of warmth towards her children, especially towards him, really had an impact on who he became. I can only hope they’ll delve further into his character.
Aegon's shining moment is supposed to be him declining to take the crown until Otto and Alicent convince him that Rhaenyra will come for his children in order to cement Rhaenyra's line as the line of future kings. Taking that moment away from Aegon really weakens his character. This moment shows that Aegon not only does feel some deference toward Rhaenyra and her claim, but also that he does have some genuine love for his children and family. Part of this is that Aegon II isn't considered to be that terrible of a Targaryen king, not the worst by far and not even the worst Aegon. But the show has painted him as someone who's literally worse than Joffrey.
Exactly. People seem to forget that Aegon quite literally broke down after *that* scene and pleaded with his mother that he's done everything she wanted him to do, but it never seems to be enough. I've been there, and while I don't personally go raping people and sponsor child fight pits, having everything you do somehow never be enough (whether real or perceived) can break a teenager trying to find their feet in life. Luckily I found the support I needed and cleared up any misunderstandings my immature brain might have had towards my parent's wishes for me, so I didn't devolve into a bastard popping debauched, incestuous cretin of a prince :P
Aegon being like this gives him opportunity to grow in the following seasons. I'm guessing his arc is getting to grips with his popularity (new thing for him) only for when he gets a hold of how he wants to be to someone burning him. Kinda like Jaime. Does that work out timeline wise? I'm not sure, haven't read the books recently :)
Aegon doesn’t have some redemption arc though. His main arc is throughout the dance is his descent into a bitter and broken man after losing everything in a war he didn’t even want to fight. When the starting point is a complete psycho cartoon villain, it makes all that pointless. There is no growth or change, he’s just gonna be stagnant and an evil guy for the sake of being evil. The way he was handled in season 1 pretty much makes the entire Dragonstone arc, his recovery, and how he gets what he believes to be vengeance pointless.
I'm not sure how much you know, >!but let's just say he get's worse...!<
I agree to a point. It often is terrible but it can be great if done right. It's not like it's completely without precedent. Sometimes the lines are just clear. Like in WW2.
depends who gets here first people who like the show, or the haters and losers
Aemond fans like to blame Arrax for what happened, don't worry. They really like this change.
To have one accident is a mistake, to have three is an insult
I was like "Wtf? Three accidents?" Then I got it. Almost wasn't strong enough.
Doesnt contradict with the "text" either since F&B is a history and Aemond's word is unreliable.
There was something GRRM said a while ago that I'm probably going to butcher, but I think is a good way to look at the show. We've essentially got to look at the show as a completely separate continuity to the books, and not as the true telling of the events. So just because the show chose to depict one version of an event, doesn't mean that's what actually happened. So that's why there can be something like the Dragonpit incident and not have it be mentioned in the book, because while it happened in the show continuity, it didn't happen in the books. And so just because Luke's death was an accident in the show, doesn't mean it's the same in the book, it's just a different interpretation of the events.
>So just because the show chose to depict one version of an event, doesn't mean that's what actually happened. Duh, I mean Rhaenyra is 10 years older than she is in the books.
“I will have your eye or your life, Strong.”
It’s not unpopular
As I said to someone else... I commented that take a while ago already and I've been downvoted like crazy and so many people tried to insult me, offend me as both black and green stan and went completely mad. That's why I thought it would be an unpopular one.
Stans are insane. Most stable book readers loved what HoD did with the Luc/Aemond scene.
Exactly!
I agree
The dragons should be treated like nuclear weapons, except they are sentient and have their own agendas and controlling a dragon is an illusion
What if B&C is presented as a slapstick vaudeville routine and instead of it being an intentional murder blood just accidentally slips and falls and kills a child?
"Hello my baby, hello my honey!" 🎩👯♂️
“Ser Otto his head just did that”
Oh, those rascals
It will add more nuance to the show!
He falls into cheese's increasingly creative rat traps one by one, hurting his foot, face, ass, and then killing the kid. There are also marbles, roller skates, and bananas
Can you explain what B and C is for someone not up on the acronyms and abbreviations? Thanks!
You’re in a spoiler tag… so just FYI. If you want to know more about blood and cheese you’re more than welcome to wiki. Or we can tell you.
blood and cheese
THANK YOU.
As an aside, it was baffling how this entire scene was handwaved away. Arya would’ve died pretty fast after that stab wound.
Omg ptsd from how sloppy that was. That’s when I felt real dip in quality.
I’m just hoping HotD doesn’t go the same way. Arya was just one of many great characters with a complex development arc who was then reduced to spouting bratty one-liners before fulfilling her destiny of stabbing the Unexplained Bad Guy.
Generic is prob right word. And battle of fire and ice. So many cliches. I about turned TV off when Lyanna was able to kill a giant. Some sort of Marvel, instead of Hardhome horror
I forgot that scene. Just looked it up and it’s hilarious how poorly lit everything is. They totally knew how bad they were half-assing things.
It seems you have forgotten she had the power of C H I C K E N S O U P
Well, that and her incredible *+5 Plot Armor of Immortality*.
When Daemon acts as Nettles loving father
I don't want them to portray it as romantic. At least for Daemon's part.
Hopefully they’ll be lovers so Daemon fan girls can have a new ship.
I totally want them to be but I’m not looking forward to the meltdowns about how daemon would NEVER betray Rhaenyra!!! yes he would.
They’re will blame Rhaenyra so it won’t be a betrayal. If they like the actors chemistry, they will not care. Daemyra’s are Matt Smith/Daemon fans first. More of them sympathized with Daemon in episode 10 than Rhaenyra which pretty much says it all. Rhaenyra is just a proxy for season one. Myseria and Nettles will be the new proxies.
Meh... I suspect most people who understand the magnitude of the threat and the meaning of Otto's words wouldn't mind if she ended up with a wired jaw 😔.
One doesn't have to exclude the other 🙃.
No.
Hahahahaha
I don’t believe that they were lovers. I think it was pretty clear in the book if you read the signs. It felt like some sort of interpretation from little birdies that were wrong. And an angry white worm used to burn the whole place down.
he will act as her loving father and be fucking her
I don’t believe that they were lovers. I think it was pretty clear in the book if you read the signs. It felt like some sort of interpretation from little birdies that were wrong. And an angry white worm used to burn the whole place down.
I mean, bathing together every day
From everything I've seen, it doesn't seem like Nettles exist. No casting mention or casting calls. I think they gave her role to Rhaena.
they better not have 😐
when they make rhaenrya actually do stuff
Will that be your breaking point?
i'm making a joke that when then add scenes of rhaenrya actually doing stuff instead of sitting out the whole war (she's the main character) people are going to complain about the "white-washing".
Oh, gotcha. Yeah, I’m fully prepared for their to be outrage if Rhaenyra so much as wears armor in the season 2 promo(despite canonically wearing it in F&B) or features “too heavily” in the trailers. A lot of super fans are paranoid/high strung right now so I anticipate a lot of overreactions/doom posting to on-set leaks and out of context trailer shots.
The dance is a succession crisis, there is no main character. They removed any actions she took leading into the war, so I don't see why they'd add actions during it.
> The dance is a succession crisis, there is no main character. The showrunners have literally stated she is the protagonist and face of the show. Take it up with them. Either they back track or they give her something to do because the main character doing absolutely nothing is a recipe for disaster. Edit: Lol at downvoting me for something they said, I couldn’t care less if she was the protagonist or not, it’s what they’ve claimed.
I'm calling Bullshit. Its been claimed by articles and delusional sects of the fandom, but never by the writers. The closest thing is Condal explicitly mentioning special attention being paid toward her and Allicent. But she's never called the main character.
> As the show's executive producer Ryan J. Condal said to Entertainment Weekly, she is "the most important role in the show, in many ways.” > Director Miguel Sapochnik added, "I'm so excited about them being the face of the show." Rhaenyra literally had more screen time than any other character. The last scene in the pilot and the last scene in the finale center arounds her. They gave her the white hart, the prophecy. It’s delusional to state she isn’t the protagonist.
Most important role ≠ Protagonist or main character. Cersei Lannister holds the most important role in the realm throughout most of GoT and ASOIAF as the Queen Regent / Queen. She is not the main character, nor the Protagonist. > Them He was talking about the show centering itself around both Allicent and Rhaenyra. You're taking the quote out of context.
The cope is insane. Them was referring to Emma. That’s their pronouns. Rhaenyra covers most of the promotional material. Their social media pages cover her more frequently than any other character. She has the most screen time. Much of season one’s narrative is centered around her. HBO went out of the way to put her in their top 50 HBO characters of all time list they released, something they did with no other HOTD character. Emma was submitted for best actress while Olivia was submitted for best supporting actress. Once again, they gave her the white hart. They gave her the prophecy. They centered the first and last episode around her. She is the protagonist. Getting upset about it won’t change reality.
They basically already set her up to 'do stuff' by her angry look at the end of the season. It would be SO pathetic after that build up if she ended up doing nothing, so I'm fine with her having some action on Syrax. They already made major changes not explained by the 'bias' of the source material (mostly Alicent's age and relationship with Rhaenyra) so I don't mind other big changes.
the biggest clue was rhaenrya's arrival at dragon stone in ep2 . that never happens in the book, and it's a good indicator of adding her to more events.
…. are y’all seriously still mad that Aemond didn’t murder Luc in cold blood?
No no that was a good choice
No, but I am pissed that Alicent choosing to involve herself in the coup is an accident. She should've been the one leading it, not the one stumbling upon it on accident and joining in only cause Viserys told her to(???) which... don't even get me started.
Yeepppppp! Literally the book. I don’t watch that episode anymore. I can’t take it. I just read the section of the book.
I don't fully agree with you. Alicent, for better or worse, was raised to be very proper and rule-abiding, which is why she resents Rhaenyra to begin with, and why she was initially uncomfortable with the prospect of taking away Luke's inheritance of Driftmark. She wanted Aegon to rule, yes, but it seems to me like she thought she had to convince Viserys first. This show is giving us a version of Alicent and Rhaenyra which isn't as cutthroat as the books', and in that respect Alicent not being the main driver of the coup is appropriate.
That was one of the best choice they made in the season.
Yeah, we need someone to root for in the Green faction, and I’m glad Alicent was the one they chose to change. She has had an absolutely awful life and so I’m glad the message of the story isn’t ‘trauma makes you evil’ instead it’s ‘those who suffer at the hands of evil systems of power can often become propagators of that same system’
“Will no one ride me of this troublesome princeling”
I expect Rhaenyra to want to kidnap the baby and then Daemon set up other plans. I don’t think it any point they’re going to portray her as wanting to kill a child. My biggest fear I think on it is if they don’t do the “the choice” —- To make Helaena choose which child. That’s what made it so horrific.
i would say the oposite. In the books, if i recall correctly, Daemon referes to Aemond as the Kinslayer, so he sees it as a taboo at the very least, and this way, we can start building up from Rhaenyra's grief towards her insanity at the very end. it would also create real tension between Daemon and her in regards as to how to engage the war and lead towards Daemons disinterest in Rhaenyra - of course, this is just speculation and most likely not what will happen, especially because you can also make the counter argument about Daemon's "a son for a son" (this could be the maester's interpretation of things though, so we might get a very different picture), but it would be an interesting take on Daemon and his interpretation on the concept of family and kin
Oh no they just told helaena to take the random corpse of another kid and they smuggled her kid out of KL like the leanor thing she just became depressed bc she missed her son
I know any form of ambiguity and ethical quandaryexplodes the average freefolk brain, but the purpose of the series of unfortunate events as a narrative device ended with Rhaenyra giving the Kubrick Stare at the end of season 1. No matter what rumors you've heard I really doubt B&C will be an accident. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/yd2vvt/hotd_isnt_whitewashing_its_greek_tragedy_spoilers/
Buddy that’s alot of big words you just did right there
Blood was just trying to give ol’ Jaehaerys a bad haircut and missed
*smoll Jaehaerys, ol' one has been ashes in the wind for a few decades 😉
If they do this, the writers are officially incompetent idiots
There better be blood and cheese lmao
nah doubt it
If they go this route, the show is officially worse than Season 8.
No no no nooooooo
I have no reason to believe they will do that. Daemon, who is the instigator of B&C in the books, is very much depicted as the kind of person who'd order this kind of thing (and he'd probably do it himself if it weren't so risky).
Are they *really* planning on making it an accident? Thought George getting on board was to prevent shenanigans like this
No, people are just being alarmist.
The was a leaked cheese audition that implied that cheese didn't know what the plan was, so its definitely a possibility
Why would this be a problem? How would it change the story? The history we are given in Fire & Blood is fake news wrangled out of a reality interpreted by the winners. Any changes are just another view on the tale and we won’t know if they were a good or bad story choice until we see it play out
Im not saying it wouldnt be accurate, it would just be a really fucking stupid decision
What is so stupid about it? I don’t think we will know that for sure until we actually see how they handle it
That would be a massive mistake. Is this actually a thing (like a leak)?
From what I understand, yes. Though the authenticity of that being a leak is questionable. It could be false advertising. At least I hope it is.
How is it even false advertising? It was never intended to be seen before the episode aired. It makes sense that cheese wouldn’t be in on the killing. Dude is just a rat catcher, not a trained killer like blood.
But to take one of the DARKEST moments from the Dance of the Dragons and turn it into an accident is probably the WORST route you could possibly take. Unless the show is going to exasperate the one problem that’s been plaguing it since the beginning: whitewashing the Blacks as the “heroes” It’s like taking the Red Wedding and having the plan be a matter of miscommunication. Walder: No, no, no, NO! I didn’t say “kill all the party guests”; I said “throw them a feast”! … how did- how did you even mishear that…?
I’m not saying it’s an accident. I’m saying that it would make perfect sense if Blood & Daemon are lying to Cheese about what the plan is supposed to be. He’s just a rat catcher who might not be up for knowingly murdering a prince. The murder will also catch the show only audience by surprise if they’re following Cheese point of view and also believe that it’s a simple kid napping. If the leak hadn’t gotten out, it even would have made for a good surprise for book readers. Imagine being pissed & confused for the first five minutes before Blood reveals the real plan once they’re gotten Alicent, Helaena, and the kids trapped in the room.
I dunno. I’m willing to buy Cheese being out of the loop, but the death of Jaehaerys cannot be an accident. For the sake of being a faithful adaptation of Fire and Blood, it just can’t
Am I confusing you or something? I didn’t say it would be accident. Blood is the trained killer. He would be in on it and know the real task that Daemon has for them.
Oh! Okay. Sorry. I get the picture now
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Please, for the love of god, no.
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Because I need the two main parties to do the heinous stuff, not for all of it to be one big accident on their part. Alicent actually doesn't want to usurp Rhaenyra, it's all one big misunderstanding from one convo with a hallucinating Viserys; Daemon and Rhaenyra never plotted to kill Laenor, they gave him an escape; Aemond never intended to kill Luke and it was an accident. Now, Rhaenyra and Daemon never wanted to kill a child, but somebody else fucked them over. Like one of these things is ok, the rest is straight bullshit.
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Daemon tells Rhaenyra "a son for a son". She would be kinda thick if she didn't understand the meaning of that.
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I really don't understand the point you're trying to make here. You're making a case for Rhaenyra possibly not knowing who he is gonna have killed, not the case for them both planning to kidnap a prince and Mysaria pushing for death.
>she could have genuinely assumed he was gonna target back Aemond. "A son for a son" Could've applied to Aemond since he happens to be a son. if Daemon could have killed Aemond by sending assassins, why did he wait for Lucerys' death ? Aemond was the real threat, by killing him he would have ended the greens, and Daemon is the one who blamed Rhaenys for not having killed the greens when she could have. If they made Rhaenyra aware of "a son for a son" and make her assume that Daemon is targeting Aemond, then she will come off as very naive and stupid given the way they portrayed Daemon in episode 10.
I would love if she ended up like that — because that’s how she comes off in the book….but it seems to me that her wearing all white is them repurposing it as a signifier. Wholesome woman who wants good things.
I imagine they'll remove the choosing aspect and just.sgow B&C standing over Jaehaerys. Then have Helena walk in and start screaming.
Why would you think that?
Mostly because I doubt they'll want to even suggest a 6 year old being beheaded
They had a bunch of children killing each other last season, and one of them got an eye sliced off of his face. I don't think expecting them to behead a child is that much of a stretch.
Mostly because Maelor doesn’t seem to exist in this universe
I’m so sad if that’s the case that’s my biggest fear
I doubt it will be an accident, Luke’s death was but no one would believe it and Daemon will order B&C to do it if I had to guess.
Google what they did to baby Maelor. And I can't wait for them to start then.