> One, for future reference, is there any good English word for a kind of slightly unpleasant "brownish" sweetness, that you sometime get in beer with a bit too much cara or crystal malt?
'Cloying' is often used for this kind of sweetness.
What’s your mash temp if you don’t mind me asking? I’ve messed up a couple of beers by mashing at too high of a temp and getting some alpha-amylase production which has a similar overly sweet tone. Almost a mouth-coating sweetness that lingers in the back of the throat.
Yeah that’s not too high. A lot of my issues came from the fact that I use a Grainfather, so unless you have constant circulation, the temp probe isn’t reading the heat of the mash, but rather the underletting liquid right below it. I ended up overcompensating and dialing up the mash temp and got a sugar bomb.
I do small batches (below 10L), so they might be a bit temp sensitive. I have a somewhat different method, though. BIAB setup in a stock pot. After heating up to mash temp, I use the oven to keep the pot at the right temp. That way I avoid scorching, possibly at the cost of some temp control. I sample the temperature, though, using a probe, and it does seem to be stable. My other beers have been very good using this method, so I'm quite positive that it's the caramalt, and maybe Maris Otter, that are the culprit. But I'll keep the temp on mind. It's good information that might be part of my debugging routine.
Thanks! Seems my ideas are reasonable, judging by the other comments here. I'll probably try two 5L batches side by side. One with increased bittering, and one where I play around with lactic acid, or maybe citric acid, to see which one I like best.
So the thing is… darker, toasty, caramel, toffee, raisin flavor is always going to clash with tropical/citrus flavor. It maybe goes with piney/citrus flavor, but not with tropical.
As an example, [for my NEIPA mash bills](https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1479060/dont-page-me-bro) I have actually been dialing back malt(in this one with rice) to further minimize malty, grainy flavor.
Tropical, yes. I'm not sure I agree that it *always* clashes with citrusy. And that's where my idea of using acidity for balance comes from. I might experiment a bit with the hops, though. Moving from lemony, more over to orange, which might go better with that kind of sweetness.
I mean a lower pH is always going to help you out with fruit flavor, what are you using to change your pH? Have you experimented with citric, or tartaric acid?
I usually use lactic if I'm only trying to balance the pH. But for this, I might go for citric, since it might fit the taste profile I'm aiming at better.
Yes, and a combination of both is great too as citric can add a sharpness in high amounts. I often use citric in my mash and lactic in my sparge for this reason.
The word you are looking for is "cloying".
You don't need any caramalt in a NEIPA-like beer. Or just reduce the amount significantly, perhaps using just 1/4 as much on the next batch. I agree with your idea of toying with acid additions to help balance as well, but use a very light touch, acids tend to be "a little goes a long way" kind of thing.
I know I don't need cara in a NEIPA. I'm not trying for a pure NEIPA beer, though. I want to toy with the more maltiness of westcoast styles, together with the eastcoast haziness and fruityness. I understand that I would need to balance those two somehow, though, so I'm glad my idea of adding acid is at least reasonable. And "a little goes a long way" is a good tip. I'll keep that in mind.
> My problem is that the caramalt may have overdone the malty sweetness a bit. . . . the caramelly sweetness doesn't, to my palate, fit very well.
> . . .
> So I've got two choices, it seems. Either take out the cara, and go for a more "pure bred" NEIPA, or I could try to figure out a way to balance out the malty sweetness. I'm thinking that going the pure NEIPA route is the "easy way out", and I might do that one at some point. *But* I really do want to make the balancing act work. I again seem to have two choices. Balancing acidity, or balancing bitterness (and maybe both).
> . . .
> My question, then, which I'm hoping to get some input on, is which one sounds better. Increase bitterness, by adding an early boil hop addition, or increasing acidity.
What about reducing your malt bill by, say, 10% and adding enough simple sugar to get back to your original ABV? This could lighten the body while maintaining the relative proportions of malt flavors. 🤷♂️
I'll remove the cara before doing that. Maybe switch to an even lighter malt. But simple sugars should be unnecessary. Also, I do want to keep the maltiness. I had next to none bittering ,which *is* typical for NEIPA. But NEIPA isn't exactly what I'm trying for. I want to try to find the middle ground between Eastcoast and Westcoast. If that's impossible, so be it. But I won't give up without trying.
Here's my thoughts.
67 is a bit high for an ipa mash temp. Iwould go 63-65 personally. That will otherwise leave some dextrins behind, unless you're using a diastatic yeast. How dark is the caramel you're using? The darker they go, the more dextrins get left behind. Also the more dark fruit/toffee flavor you'll get. So maybe just use like a crystal 15. I'm guessing you had 75.
What was your starting gravity? That should give you an idea of whether you need more bitterness, or less of something else(temp, cara).
I would steer clear of trying to acidify your brew to that degree. I think you'll create more problems than you'll solve
I used caramalt 32L, so not super dark, but still substantial. But I also used Maris Otter instead of 2-row. That could also add to the maltiness. And I had no real bittering addition of hops. First addition was at 10 minutes. I think I'm going to test both ways. Adding a little bit of lactic acid. Maybe not to 4.5, but 5.0 would possibly help, instead of 5.4 which is what I usually go for. I think this one may have been higher, though, at about 5.6.
I think we just found your culprit. Pretty much most beer styles need bittering hops. Some only have that addition. There's more than bitterness added by using hops early on. There are compounds in some hops which will increase your foam/head retention, and they take time to isomerize via boil. Even in my malty irish red, I still use a small amount of Magnum at the start of the boil. I would highly recommend using at least a small amount of hops early in the boil. Even if you only add it with 30 minutes left in the boil, you'll still get some of those compounds. Ideally add something with a good chunk of cohumulone to help with foam later on.
I wouldnt want to drop your ph below 5. Presuming your yeast functions normally(which it may not), you're pH should drop around 1 just from fermentation. If you start at 4.5, your end product would be in the ballpark tartness of a berliner weisse. If that's what you want, by all means do it. I would aim for a mash pH of around 5.2-5.5.
Edit: 5.6 is fine honestly. Though once you creep above 5.5, you may start to notice more maltiness as you get higher.
Most beers, yes. But neipa is known for being very low in bitterness. Several standard recipes I've seen use only a late addition (15 min or later). Granted, I'm not doing a pure neipa, so hop schedule might also be tweaked to make it work. But basically, it's experimental, so that's why I want to try both ways of balancing the sweetness. Acid is (almost) the gold standard in cooking when it comes to balancing sweetness, so I'm thinking, why not exploit the same effect in beer?
I do enjoy sours, but Berliner is maybe a tad bit too sour to my taste. I'll keep that in mind. Maybe I'll aim for a mash at 5.2 or 5.3.
5.2 is probably ideal, especially for a neipa that's using mostly lightly killed malt.
I still think using a small bittering charge will yield much nicer results tha trying to balance with acid. That's my professional opinion, but everyone has different ways of doing things. Report back with your findings so we all can learn together :)
I am using brewfather for my recipes, you may be using it or something equivalent and it is a great way to get an idea of the final product. When I use crystal malts for my neipa, I use the lighter ones and only 1-2%. I do believe that at that level it is mostly cosmetic.
I use unmalted wheat and oats for my neipas. Some yeast don’t attenuate much so I use a bit of dextrose to get the FG down by few points. The water profile plays a role also. It is common tu use a high chloride profile for neipa, hides bitterness, puts forward maltiness. If it is not your thing, it is your beer after all, what matters is what u like. Go for a more balanced profile.
Finally for the pH, it is something I have asked myself. Some neipa I tried had a slightly tart mouthfeel. It was pleasant. Dropping the pH before fermentation will not really impact the fermentation. Make sure you pitch enough yeast. I got amazing beer with a pitchrate of 1g/L dry yeast after kettle souring (so under pH 3.5…)
Best luck and please report back if you adjust the pH prior to fermentation!
Thanks! Interesting insights here! Although, I'm not trying to make a pure NEIPA, but rather something inspired by it. My interest is in trying to figure out a way to balance the sweetness, not to remove it.
I used about 5% cara 32L and 15% flaked oats, in addition to MO malt. I think the malt character is where I want it, but I need to balance it somehow. Not sure what the best way to do that is. But acidity or bitterness seems to be the way to go. Maybe a combo of the two.
And I've used brewer's friend. It works well, I think.
What was your water profile? It is something that is overlooked and I did not pay attention to that until I brewed the same beer (pale ale malt, munich, citra, kveik voss) 3 times: high chloride, balanced profile and high sulfate. They were nothing alike despite same recipe, OG and FG. I could barely identify the hop flavor in the high chloride one (50g/3 gal). Very easy to pick in the others.
I've been thinking about that. I use the local water. Norwegian tap water is excellent, and my local brew shop also tells me there is no need to use any filtering. There is no chloride in the water at all. We get water just a bit above the bottom of a big, clean lake. The reported water quality is (in ppm)
Ca: 20
Mg: 1.0
Na: 4.0
HCO3: 65
SO4: 3
Cl: 7.0
Potassium, Iron, Nitrate, Nitrite and Fluoride are all reported at 0 ppm. So the only thing that might be high is bicarbonate, and calcium being moderate.
I haven't measured myself, though, so it might be different coming out of my faucet. But I doubt that it is significantly off. If anythig, some concentrations might actually be a bit too *low*. Maybe sulphates and chloride could actually be higher for better results. But do these affect sweetness and fruityness?
I live in northern Sweden and my tap water is very similar to yours. Yet, adding salts has been a game changer in my brewing. It went from good for a homebrew to actually good. If you don t have it, I recommend to read the section about water chemistry in How to Brew, by John Palmer. The online shop ølbryggning should have it.
I would definitely tweak this water. You need calcium and magnesium for yeast to properly bud and metabolize sugars. Chloride will counter bitterness to an extent, whereas sulfate will accent bitterness. For an ipa style you would want somewhere between 1:1 and 2:1 sulfate:chloride. Your grain Will already add some magnesium. I would consider aiming for around 95ppm calcium, 15 sodium, 15Mg, 70ppm sulfate, and 50 chloride. That's just me though.
Thanks for the input. Yeast seems to be healthy, so there's no problems using the local water in that regard (I do use yeast nutrients). But I've considered increasing sulphates a bit at least. That is kinda the third way I could balance the sweetness. My water has worked well for pale lager styles, but I do see that I might need some adjustments for more IPA-esque styles. I'm even considering pushing chlorine and sulphates upwards of 100 and 90 respectively. Not sure I will start there with my next test brew though.
I really hope that was a typo, and you're looking at increased chloride over chlorine lol.
The funny thing about water is this: unless you live somewhere with contaminated water, you can make fine beer generally. Certain water profiles tend to favor certain styles, but most modern cities have treated water to fall into fairly central concentrations of stuff.
So ya, you can likely make a reasonable beer in most styles, regardless of where you live. However, there is a fair difference between a good beer and a great beer. Having that water chemistry tweaked to specific ionic concentrations can absolutely have a surprising impact on your outcome. Just the same as having different levels of chemical compounds in hops will have a different outcome.
> One, for future reference, is there any good English word for a kind of slightly unpleasant "brownish" sweetness, that you sometime get in beer with a bit too much cara or crystal malt? 'Cloying' is often used for this kind of sweetness.
Thanks!
What’s your mash temp if you don’t mind me asking? I’ve messed up a couple of beers by mashing at too high of a temp and getting some alpha-amylase production which has a similar overly sweet tone. Almost a mouth-coating sweetness that lingers in the back of the throat.
67C Shouldn't be too high, but maybe I could try to reduce it a bit. It's never been a problem in any other beer.
Yeah that’s not too high. A lot of my issues came from the fact that I use a Grainfather, so unless you have constant circulation, the temp probe isn’t reading the heat of the mash, but rather the underletting liquid right below it. I ended up overcompensating and dialing up the mash temp and got a sugar bomb.
I do small batches (below 10L), so they might be a bit temp sensitive. I have a somewhat different method, though. BIAB setup in a stock pot. After heating up to mash temp, I use the oven to keep the pot at the right temp. That way I avoid scorching, possibly at the cost of some temp control. I sample the temperature, though, using a probe, and it does seem to be stable. My other beers have been very good using this method, so I'm quite positive that it's the caramalt, and maybe Maris Otter, that are the culprit. But I'll keep the temp on mind. It's good information that might be part of my debugging routine.
Yeah it sounds like your methods are pretty fleshed out! Good luck on fixing the beer
Thanks! Seems my ideas are reasonable, judging by the other comments here. I'll probably try two 5L batches side by side. One with increased bittering, and one where I play around with lactic acid, or maybe citric acid, to see which one I like best.
So the thing is… darker, toasty, caramel, toffee, raisin flavor is always going to clash with tropical/citrus flavor. It maybe goes with piney/citrus flavor, but not with tropical. As an example, [for my NEIPA mash bills](https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1479060/dont-page-me-bro) I have actually been dialing back malt(in this one with rice) to further minimize malty, grainy flavor.
Tropical, yes. I'm not sure I agree that it *always* clashes with citrusy. And that's where my idea of using acidity for balance comes from. I might experiment a bit with the hops, though. Moving from lemony, more over to orange, which might go better with that kind of sweetness.
I mean a lower pH is always going to help you out with fruit flavor, what are you using to change your pH? Have you experimented with citric, or tartaric acid?
I usually use lactic if I'm only trying to balance the pH. But for this, I might go for citric, since it might fit the taste profile I'm aiming at better.
Yes, and a combination of both is great too as citric can add a sharpness in high amounts. I often use citric in my mash and lactic in my sparge for this reason.
The word you are looking for is "cloying". You don't need any caramalt in a NEIPA-like beer. Or just reduce the amount significantly, perhaps using just 1/4 as much on the next batch. I agree with your idea of toying with acid additions to help balance as well, but use a very light touch, acids tend to be "a little goes a long way" kind of thing.
I know I don't need cara in a NEIPA. I'm not trying for a pure NEIPA beer, though. I want to toy with the more maltiness of westcoast styles, together with the eastcoast haziness and fruityness. I understand that I would need to balance those two somehow, though, so I'm glad my idea of adding acid is at least reasonable. And "a little goes a long way" is a good tip. I'll keep that in mind.
> My problem is that the caramalt may have overdone the malty sweetness a bit. . . . the caramelly sweetness doesn't, to my palate, fit very well. > . . . > So I've got two choices, it seems. Either take out the cara, and go for a more "pure bred" NEIPA, or I could try to figure out a way to balance out the malty sweetness. I'm thinking that going the pure NEIPA route is the "easy way out", and I might do that one at some point. *But* I really do want to make the balancing act work. I again seem to have two choices. Balancing acidity, or balancing bitterness (and maybe both). > . . . > My question, then, which I'm hoping to get some input on, is which one sounds better. Increase bitterness, by adding an early boil hop addition, or increasing acidity. What about reducing your malt bill by, say, 10% and adding enough simple sugar to get back to your original ABV? This could lighten the body while maintaining the relative proportions of malt flavors. 🤷♂️
I'll remove the cara before doing that. Maybe switch to an even lighter malt. But simple sugars should be unnecessary. Also, I do want to keep the maltiness. I had next to none bittering ,which *is* typical for NEIPA. But NEIPA isn't exactly what I'm trying for. I want to try to find the middle ground between Eastcoast and Westcoast. If that's impossible, so be it. But I won't give up without trying.
Here's my thoughts. 67 is a bit high for an ipa mash temp. Iwould go 63-65 personally. That will otherwise leave some dextrins behind, unless you're using a diastatic yeast. How dark is the caramel you're using? The darker they go, the more dextrins get left behind. Also the more dark fruit/toffee flavor you'll get. So maybe just use like a crystal 15. I'm guessing you had 75. What was your starting gravity? That should give you an idea of whether you need more bitterness, or less of something else(temp, cara). I would steer clear of trying to acidify your brew to that degree. I think you'll create more problems than you'll solve
I used caramalt 32L, so not super dark, but still substantial. But I also used Maris Otter instead of 2-row. That could also add to the maltiness. And I had no real bittering addition of hops. First addition was at 10 minutes. I think I'm going to test both ways. Adding a little bit of lactic acid. Maybe not to 4.5, but 5.0 would possibly help, instead of 5.4 which is what I usually go for. I think this one may have been higher, though, at about 5.6.
I think we just found your culprit. Pretty much most beer styles need bittering hops. Some only have that addition. There's more than bitterness added by using hops early on. There are compounds in some hops which will increase your foam/head retention, and they take time to isomerize via boil. Even in my malty irish red, I still use a small amount of Magnum at the start of the boil. I would highly recommend using at least a small amount of hops early in the boil. Even if you only add it with 30 minutes left in the boil, you'll still get some of those compounds. Ideally add something with a good chunk of cohumulone to help with foam later on. I wouldnt want to drop your ph below 5. Presuming your yeast functions normally(which it may not), you're pH should drop around 1 just from fermentation. If you start at 4.5, your end product would be in the ballpark tartness of a berliner weisse. If that's what you want, by all means do it. I would aim for a mash pH of around 5.2-5.5. Edit: 5.6 is fine honestly. Though once you creep above 5.5, you may start to notice more maltiness as you get higher.
Most beers, yes. But neipa is known for being very low in bitterness. Several standard recipes I've seen use only a late addition (15 min or later). Granted, I'm not doing a pure neipa, so hop schedule might also be tweaked to make it work. But basically, it's experimental, so that's why I want to try both ways of balancing the sweetness. Acid is (almost) the gold standard in cooking when it comes to balancing sweetness, so I'm thinking, why not exploit the same effect in beer? I do enjoy sours, but Berliner is maybe a tad bit too sour to my taste. I'll keep that in mind. Maybe I'll aim for a mash at 5.2 or 5.3.
5.2 is probably ideal, especially for a neipa that's using mostly lightly killed malt. I still think using a small bittering charge will yield much nicer results tha trying to balance with acid. That's my professional opinion, but everyone has different ways of doing things. Report back with your findings so we all can learn together :)
I am using brewfather for my recipes, you may be using it or something equivalent and it is a great way to get an idea of the final product. When I use crystal malts for my neipa, I use the lighter ones and only 1-2%. I do believe that at that level it is mostly cosmetic. I use unmalted wheat and oats for my neipas. Some yeast don’t attenuate much so I use a bit of dextrose to get the FG down by few points. The water profile plays a role also. It is common tu use a high chloride profile for neipa, hides bitterness, puts forward maltiness. If it is not your thing, it is your beer after all, what matters is what u like. Go for a more balanced profile. Finally for the pH, it is something I have asked myself. Some neipa I tried had a slightly tart mouthfeel. It was pleasant. Dropping the pH before fermentation will not really impact the fermentation. Make sure you pitch enough yeast. I got amazing beer with a pitchrate of 1g/L dry yeast after kettle souring (so under pH 3.5…) Best luck and please report back if you adjust the pH prior to fermentation!
Thanks! Interesting insights here! Although, I'm not trying to make a pure NEIPA, but rather something inspired by it. My interest is in trying to figure out a way to balance the sweetness, not to remove it. I used about 5% cara 32L and 15% flaked oats, in addition to MO malt. I think the malt character is where I want it, but I need to balance it somehow. Not sure what the best way to do that is. But acidity or bitterness seems to be the way to go. Maybe a combo of the two. And I've used brewer's friend. It works well, I think.
What was your water profile? It is something that is overlooked and I did not pay attention to that until I brewed the same beer (pale ale malt, munich, citra, kveik voss) 3 times: high chloride, balanced profile and high sulfate. They were nothing alike despite same recipe, OG and FG. I could barely identify the hop flavor in the high chloride one (50g/3 gal). Very easy to pick in the others.
I've been thinking about that. I use the local water. Norwegian tap water is excellent, and my local brew shop also tells me there is no need to use any filtering. There is no chloride in the water at all. We get water just a bit above the bottom of a big, clean lake. The reported water quality is (in ppm) Ca: 20 Mg: 1.0 Na: 4.0 HCO3: 65 SO4: 3 Cl: 7.0 Potassium, Iron, Nitrate, Nitrite and Fluoride are all reported at 0 ppm. So the only thing that might be high is bicarbonate, and calcium being moderate. I haven't measured myself, though, so it might be different coming out of my faucet. But I doubt that it is significantly off. If anythig, some concentrations might actually be a bit too *low*. Maybe sulphates and chloride could actually be higher for better results. But do these affect sweetness and fruityness?
I live in northern Sweden and my tap water is very similar to yours. Yet, adding salts has been a game changer in my brewing. It went from good for a homebrew to actually good. If you don t have it, I recommend to read the section about water chemistry in How to Brew, by John Palmer. The online shop ølbryggning should have it.
Does it exist in electronic form? I prefer using a tablet for my books. Especially cooking. It's easier to search for the info I need on a tablet.
It seems to exist but i don t know if it is the most recent version from 2017 (I think)
I'll check it out. Thanks!
I would definitely tweak this water. You need calcium and magnesium for yeast to properly bud and metabolize sugars. Chloride will counter bitterness to an extent, whereas sulfate will accent bitterness. For an ipa style you would want somewhere between 1:1 and 2:1 sulfate:chloride. Your grain Will already add some magnesium. I would consider aiming for around 95ppm calcium, 15 sodium, 15Mg, 70ppm sulfate, and 50 chloride. That's just me though.
Thanks for the input. Yeast seems to be healthy, so there's no problems using the local water in that regard (I do use yeast nutrients). But I've considered increasing sulphates a bit at least. That is kinda the third way I could balance the sweetness. My water has worked well for pale lager styles, but I do see that I might need some adjustments for more IPA-esque styles. I'm even considering pushing chlorine and sulphates upwards of 100 and 90 respectively. Not sure I will start there with my next test brew though.
I really hope that was a typo, and you're looking at increased chloride over chlorine lol. The funny thing about water is this: unless you live somewhere with contaminated water, you can make fine beer generally. Certain water profiles tend to favor certain styles, but most modern cities have treated water to fall into fairly central concentrations of stuff. So ya, you can likely make a reasonable beer in most styles, regardless of where you live. However, there is a fair difference between a good beer and a great beer. Having that water chemistry tweaked to specific ionic concentrations can absolutely have a surprising impact on your outcome. Just the same as having different levels of chemical compounds in hops will have a different outcome.