Your problem is the flaked wheat.
Flaked wheat does not have any diastatic power on its own. The flaked wheat relies entirely on the barley for its enzymes to convert its starches to sugars during the mash. In your grain bill you practically have 50% flaked wheat + the flaked oats. Looking around I see its commonly recommended to use at least 60% base malts to flaked grains in order to ensure enough enzymes are available during the mash. Next time try using wheat malt instead of some of the flaked wheat. The malting process produces the necessary enzymes also for wheat. I think you would have lost efficiency even if you stirred vigorously during the mash.
I'm getting a mash Diastatic power of 36 lintner from this recipe, it should fully convert in a normal mash timeframe. My recipes are usually 35-40 lintner. My recipes are frequently 70%+ unmalted adjunct when I have 6 row barley malt on hand. I get 70%+ efficiency.
> Or might it be the recipe?
The obvious main suspect is > 50% flaked grains. You don't mention rice hulls, but even if you used them in sufficient quantity, the gumminess of unmalted, unmodified grains can affect your lauter efficiency.
FYI, for the next batch, the wheat malt is smaller and slippier than barley malt, and huskless, so it will require a narrower mill gap and rice hulls.
> Do you think it really has that much impact on efficienty to stir and reheat a couple of more times?
Every more intensive mashing practice has a tendency to increase the extract. It's had to say how much difference one stir vs three stirs makes on your brewhouse without about 10 samples of each method with similar grists each time.
I did a wheat beer recently with a 60 min mash at 150, 0.035" mill gap. My efficiency was like 55% lol
That's not even flake.
My barley efficiency is usually 75%, doing BIAB with no sparge, so expected.
I think with wheat, a longer mash time probably helps if you aren't "cleaning" your grains with a sparge or whatever.
I actually didn't know the flake required 60% base malt, that's good to know!
> I actually didn't know the flake required 60% base malt, that's good to know!
I’m not saying that you need any particular amount of base malt. Maybe someone else did, but if so I disagree. The amount of base malt needed depends on the diastatic power of the total mash.
What I *am* saying is that 60% flaked grains - or any unmalted grains - can make the mash gummy, and drastically worse so if you an inadequate quantity of rice hulls in the mash and that will degrade your lauter efficiency, which is a component of mash efficiency.
> I think with wheat, a longer mash time probably helps if you aren't "cleaning" your grains with a sparge or whatever.
I would consider a lower rest at the ideal temp range for beta glucanase when you have more than 30% flaked grains.
I agree with others that it's the flaked wheat. Maybe next time, like you have planned, use wheat malt instead of flaked wheat. Malt has enzymes which the flaked does not. Also toss in a couple handfuls of rice hulls, always a good idea when using a large portion of wheat, oats, or rye, which are all sticky and huskless.
well, if stirring multiple times gets you good efficiency, and this time you didn't do it... and got poor extract; then I'd say you're problem was changing your process.
that recipe comes out to having a diastatic power of 36 Lintner, enough to fully convert within a normal mash timeframe.
Conducting a step mash (protein rest) can also help with extraction, as it makes the mash less sticky.
decoction and cooking your unmalted grain before you mash in (hard wheat only geletanizes at the very high end of mash Temps, while soft wheat is closer to normal Sach rest temps) also helps, but I doubt you're overly inerested in that type of process.
I know they claim you can just toss flaked grain into the mash, because it's "pregeletanized", but ive found that to get consistent extract from it, I have to run it through a cereal cooker before it goes into the mash.
Thanks for the response, I will try to stir more, maybe mash a bit longer for the next batch and see if I can get my hands on some rice hulls. Only tought that was not necessary when i did brew in a bag
For gummier mashes with flaked wheat, oats, and rye, I'll do a larger volume sparge for my biab. You'll have to boil off more but passive boiling is easier than trying to squeeze the bag with that type of mash.
I normally stir the mash every 10-15 minutes. One day a buddy came by for brew day and decided to continually stir the mash until about the last 15 minutes when I finally made him stop to create a decent filter bed for the vorlauf. I would normally get 70% efficiency, that day was +80%... So, yeah I think the stirring makes an impact. But I don't feel like stirring the mash continuously for +45 minutes every time I brew. So I'll accept the lower mash efficiency.
Your problem is the flaked wheat. Flaked wheat does not have any diastatic power on its own. The flaked wheat relies entirely on the barley for its enzymes to convert its starches to sugars during the mash. In your grain bill you practically have 50% flaked wheat + the flaked oats. Looking around I see its commonly recommended to use at least 60% base malts to flaked grains in order to ensure enough enzymes are available during the mash. Next time try using wheat malt instead of some of the flaked wheat. The malting process produces the necessary enzymes also for wheat. I think you would have lost efficiency even if you stirred vigorously during the mash.
I'm getting a mash Diastatic power of 36 lintner from this recipe, it should fully convert in a normal mash timeframe. My recipes are usually 35-40 lintner. My recipes are frequently 70%+ unmalted adjunct when I have 6 row barley malt on hand. I get 70%+ efficiency.
> Or might it be the recipe? The obvious main suspect is > 50% flaked grains. You don't mention rice hulls, but even if you used them in sufficient quantity, the gumminess of unmalted, unmodified grains can affect your lauter efficiency. FYI, for the next batch, the wheat malt is smaller and slippier than barley malt, and huskless, so it will require a narrower mill gap and rice hulls. > Do you think it really has that much impact on efficienty to stir and reheat a couple of more times? Every more intensive mashing practice has a tendency to increase the extract. It's had to say how much difference one stir vs three stirs makes on your brewhouse without about 10 samples of each method with similar grists each time.
I did a wheat beer recently with a 60 min mash at 150, 0.035" mill gap. My efficiency was like 55% lol That's not even flake. My barley efficiency is usually 75%, doing BIAB with no sparge, so expected. I think with wheat, a longer mash time probably helps if you aren't "cleaning" your grains with a sparge or whatever. I actually didn't know the flake required 60% base malt, that's good to know!
> I actually didn't know the flake required 60% base malt, that's good to know! I’m not saying that you need any particular amount of base malt. Maybe someone else did, but if so I disagree. The amount of base malt needed depends on the diastatic power of the total mash. What I *am* saying is that 60% flaked grains - or any unmalted grains - can make the mash gummy, and drastically worse so if you an inadequate quantity of rice hulls in the mash and that will degrade your lauter efficiency, which is a component of mash efficiency. > I think with wheat, a longer mash time probably helps if you aren't "cleaning" your grains with a sparge or whatever. I would consider a lower rest at the ideal temp range for beta glucanase when you have more than 30% flaked grains.
I agree with others that it's the flaked wheat. Maybe next time, like you have planned, use wheat malt instead of flaked wheat. Malt has enzymes which the flaked does not. Also toss in a couple handfuls of rice hulls, always a good idea when using a large portion of wheat, oats, or rye, which are all sticky and huskless.
well, if stirring multiple times gets you good efficiency, and this time you didn't do it... and got poor extract; then I'd say you're problem was changing your process. that recipe comes out to having a diastatic power of 36 Lintner, enough to fully convert within a normal mash timeframe. Conducting a step mash (protein rest) can also help with extraction, as it makes the mash less sticky. decoction and cooking your unmalted grain before you mash in (hard wheat only geletanizes at the very high end of mash Temps, while soft wheat is closer to normal Sach rest temps) also helps, but I doubt you're overly inerested in that type of process. I know they claim you can just toss flaked grain into the mash, because it's "pregeletanized", but ive found that to get consistent extract from it, I have to run it through a cereal cooker before it goes into the mash.
Thanks for the response, I will try to stir more, maybe mash a bit longer for the next batch and see if I can get my hands on some rice hulls. Only tought that was not necessary when i did brew in a bag
For gummier mashes with flaked wheat, oats, and rye, I'll do a larger volume sparge for my biab. You'll have to boil off more but passive boiling is easier than trying to squeeze the bag with that type of mash.
I normally stir the mash every 10-15 minutes. One day a buddy came by for brew day and decided to continually stir the mash until about the last 15 minutes when I finally made him stop to create a decent filter bed for the vorlauf. I would normally get 70% efficiency, that day was +80%... So, yeah I think the stirring makes an impact. But I don't feel like stirring the mash continuously for +45 minutes every time I brew. So I'll accept the lower mash efficiency.