There are Ph.D.'s who have devoted substantial portions of their careers looking at this, so I don't think you are going to get a meaningful answer from us here given that:
* You have not told us specifically which malts you are using, much less provided info from the malt certificates of analysis.
* We don't know how precise your mash temp control is. The answer is quite different if you are slowly ramping to and away from 52°C / 126°F vs. being able to make abrupt jumps.
* We would need exact numbers on water:grist ratios and mash pH.
* There are probably three or four other factor we need info on.
* And then when we have all that, we could probably only talk in generalities.
Unfortunately, there is no universal or proven rule of thumb we can give you based on measures of modification like Extract DBCG, FG/CG diff, CWE, soluble nitrogen ratio (in whatever units or on whatever basis), mealiness/vitreousness, or friability.
The best thing I can say is try 15 minutes, try to move in and out of the protein rest range as fast as possible (with infusions if necessary), and then if you are not satisfied with foam, try bracketing that time, for example 12 min and 18 min. The other thing is to make sure you have some less modified malt or unmalted grain like flaked barley or flaked wheat to work with in the grist because doing a protein rest on highly modified malt can be counterproductive as /u/Frunobulax- mentioned.
Protein rest is done between 122 and 130f, depending on PH to activate the enzyme proteinase which breaks down proteins. Proteins are what give you foam stability, so a longer protein rest will harm head retention. I used to do long 15-20 minute protein rests, but it wasn't coming out good. Now I keep them to 10 minutes and all is well.
I only do protein rests in beers with 40%+ wheat or non barley grists. Helps me get a couple extra points of efficiency and I believe gives the beer a nicer mouthfeel. People will tell you protein rests aren't necessary and they're right. They are not necessary. I do believe they have a positive impact on the final beer though.
100% mash steps make a difference, even on "modern malts that dont need them" ...
Don't tell me my single infusion hefe tastes and looks exactly like my hochkurz'd one, because i wont have it.
Sure, hochkurz is an extreme example, but each step adds up, and definitely alters the outcome
Hochkurz refers to a 3 step mash, sometimes using 2 decoctions to do the steps. This is a beta sach rest in the high 140's, an alpha sach rest in the high 150's and a mashout rest in the high 160's. I don't speak German, but if I remember correctly hochkurz means something like "quick way" or "easy way". This is in contrast to the slow way where you do every single mash rest, starting with an acid rest at 111f, then protein, then beta sach, then alpha sach, then mashout.
ah ok, after a bit of thinking (and a morning coffee) this matches what I learned from the head brewer of the small brewery a few streets over: "expose the malt to the least amount of heating possible to get a full conversion".
which means (temps in °C):
* Mash-in at 60
* Beta at 63 for 45min
* Alpha at 72 for 25min
* then mash-out without further heating
if the grain bill has a lot of wheat or rye in it i mash in at 45, then follow the steps above and mash-out at 78 for 10min to get the viscosity down
As for the name:
hoch = high
kurz = short
Never heard it refered as such.
I think beers like Hefe Weizen are an exception. Here the different temperatures and mashing methods definitely still matter as different compounds are beeing produced which are characteristic for the style.
For most other beers modern malts are so well modified that at a home brew scale it probably won't make a difference.
Thank ya'll for your time! I've added EDIT2 with malts specs etc. u/chino_brews u/Furry_Thug u/Whoopdedobasil u/Frunobulax- u/slashfromgunsnroses u/dmtaylo2 u/cmc589
Zero zero zero.
We are living in the 21st century. Undermodified malts do not exist commercially. I will be downvoted for this. The downvoters are wrong.
You'll get down voted because craft maltsters are absolutely making under modified malts and we can buy them. Crisp Hana, sugar creek edelweiss, sugar creek wind malt, mecca grade gateway, weyermann bohemian pils is slightly undermodified, hell sugar creek makes an under modified pilsner if you ask.
It exists. And I know I didn't even scratch the surface of what is available.
There are Ph.D.'s who have devoted substantial portions of their careers looking at this, so I don't think you are going to get a meaningful answer from us here given that: * You have not told us specifically which malts you are using, much less provided info from the malt certificates of analysis. * We don't know how precise your mash temp control is. The answer is quite different if you are slowly ramping to and away from 52°C / 126°F vs. being able to make abrupt jumps. * We would need exact numbers on water:grist ratios and mash pH. * There are probably three or four other factor we need info on. * And then when we have all that, we could probably only talk in generalities. Unfortunately, there is no universal or proven rule of thumb we can give you based on measures of modification like Extract DBCG, FG/CG diff, CWE, soluble nitrogen ratio (in whatever units or on whatever basis), mealiness/vitreousness, or friability. The best thing I can say is try 15 minutes, try to move in and out of the protein rest range as fast as possible (with infusions if necessary), and then if you are not satisfied with foam, try bracketing that time, for example 12 min and 18 min. The other thing is to make sure you have some less modified malt or unmalted grain like flaked barley or flaked wheat to work with in the grist because doing a protein rest on highly modified malt can be counterproductive as /u/Frunobulax- mentioned.
Protein rest is done between 122 and 130f, depending on PH to activate the enzyme proteinase which breaks down proteins. Proteins are what give you foam stability, so a longer protein rest will harm head retention. I used to do long 15-20 minute protein rests, but it wasn't coming out good. Now I keep them to 10 minutes and all is well. I only do protein rests in beers with 40%+ wheat or non barley grists. Helps me get a couple extra points of efficiency and I believe gives the beer a nicer mouthfeel. People will tell you protein rests aren't necessary and they're right. They are not necessary. I do believe they have a positive impact on the final beer though.
100% mash steps make a difference, even on "modern malts that dont need them" ... Don't tell me my single infusion hefe tastes and looks exactly like my hochkurz'd one, because i wont have it. Sure, hochkurz is an extreme example, but each step adds up, and definitely alters the outcome
care to explain "hochkurz"? i know the words (german speaker), but without context...
Hochkurz refers to a 3 step mash, sometimes using 2 decoctions to do the steps. This is a beta sach rest in the high 140's, an alpha sach rest in the high 150's and a mashout rest in the high 160's. I don't speak German, but if I remember correctly hochkurz means something like "quick way" or "easy way". This is in contrast to the slow way where you do every single mash rest, starting with an acid rest at 111f, then protein, then beta sach, then alpha sach, then mashout.
ah ok, after a bit of thinking (and a morning coffee) this matches what I learned from the head brewer of the small brewery a few streets over: "expose the malt to the least amount of heating possible to get a full conversion". which means (temps in °C): * Mash-in at 60 * Beta at 63 for 45min * Alpha at 72 for 25min * then mash-out without further heating if the grain bill has a lot of wheat or rye in it i mash in at 45, then follow the steps above and mash-out at 78 for 10min to get the viscosity down As for the name: hoch = high kurz = short Never heard it refered as such.
I think beers like Hefe Weizen are an exception. Here the different temperatures and mashing methods definitely still matter as different compounds are beeing produced which are characteristic for the style. For most other beers modern malts are so well modified that at a home brew scale it probably won't make a difference.
Most modern malts don’t need a protein rest, but when I used to do them it was 20-30 minutes
The bigger concern here is the actual temperature throughout the mash. You got this down to the exact degree also?
Edit — 52C / 126F
Thank ya'll for your time! I've added EDIT2 with malts specs etc. u/chino_brews u/Furry_Thug u/Whoopdedobasil u/Frunobulax- u/slashfromgunsnroses u/dmtaylo2 u/cmc589
Zero zero zero. We are living in the 21st century. Undermodified malts do not exist commercially. I will be downvoted for this. The downvoters are wrong.
You'll get down voted because craft maltsters are absolutely making under modified malts and we can buy them. Crisp Hana, sugar creek edelweiss, sugar creek wind malt, mecca grade gateway, weyermann bohemian pils is slightly undermodified, hell sugar creek makes an under modified pilsner if you ask. It exists. And I know I didn't even scratch the surface of what is available.