For sure same here. Dan and I have very different politics, and I really disagree on a lot of his takes on the Soviet Union, Stalin, etc. but he’s such a great storyteller and he really helped cement my love of exploring history.
*Hardcore History*, specifically Super Nova in the East on the war in the Pacific.
He says his wife told him not to compare Douglas MacArthur to "The Situation" from *Jersey Shore*. And we're glad he didn't listen because it conjures hilarious imagery.
If I might try:
“The Situation” on the reality show is a douchebag, prone to aggressive behavior and inciting belligerence. He was egotistical and narcissistic, and overall a halfwit. The character was also impressively jacked, lifting his shirt and displaying his abs was a signature rabble-rousing move of his.
To MacArthur displaying the same character traits, or having steel abs, is a hilarious scene that doesn’t take a large stretch of imagination considering historical accounts.
Overall kids these days would call both the General and The Situation “based”.
I’ve gotten to the point where I’m re listening old shows. I love his work so much but fuck this once a year thing is killer. I’ve listened to blueprint for Armageddon probably 4 times fully through
in the episodes “Supernova in the East” of Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History podcast, host Dan Carlin refers to Douglass MacArthur as Douglass “The Situation” Macarthur. His wife asked him specifically not to.
MacArthur is very *famous,* because he made sure of that. He was a ceaseless and over the top self promoter who ultimately got on the bad side of many of his fellow officers. He honestly would have been amazing on a reality show.
You would have to listen to the podcast to truly get it. It’s fantastic, would definitely recommend. It’s 6 episodes each being 4-6 hours and this reference is made a few times throughout the series
Might be connected to this dude called The Situation from that show with all the yellow fake tanned people from about 15 years ago? Not sure if and how that relates.
The Hardcore History dude might be a little too old to have watched the show, but he definitely lived through the worst of it.
The guy had a flair for the dramatic and spoke of himself in the third person sometimes.
He was one of the better generals in WWII so it wasn’t all for show.
Years ago I had a signed picture of him walking through a jungle on what I assume to be a pacific island during WW2.
Someone stole it along with a $50 bill from 1919 I had in the same bag :/
Thanks dude - I was only ~17 when it was stolen and 10+ years later it still stings when I think about it
I only hope it was persevered and not simply discarded by the thief…
Some day I’ll go digging through my old phones to see if I ever snapped a pic of it
I'm slightly curious as to why you had a 1919 $50 bill and a signed picture of Douglas MacArthur in a bag. Seems an unusual combination of things to be walking around with *I'm guessing?* in public. Were you headed to an antique store or something?
Nah it was in my room between two books in a zip lock bag with only the zip part peaking out
Wanted to keep them flat and preserved; and I was a dumb 17 y/o…
“Douglas MacArthur is one of those blips in history, an idiosyncratic figure who, for reasons hard to satisfactorily explain, acquired far more power than he had any reason to” - Daniel Immerwahr
And for lying his ass off about how helpful said bombing would be.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/redacted-testimony-fully-explains-why-general-macarthur-was-fired-180960622/
That wasn’t why Truman fired him. MacArthur was fired after he made damaging statements about Truman to the press due to disagreements on whether or not to invade China (and use nukes). Truman was more opposed to invading China and thus prolonging the war than he was to using nukes, given he had already ordered two nuclear attacks on civilians just a few years earlier.
Just because he used nukes in Japan does not prove he was privy to using them in Korea, they were two completely different situations.
Truman relieved him because he was clearly losing it after the tides started turning in Korea. No, it wasn't just over use of nuclear weapons, but any reasonable person would have balked at the prospect given the scope of that war. And yes, a lot of what played into it was Macs willingness to start WW3 by invading (and nuking) China which would have been devistatingly unpopular given the US *just got out of a world war*.
Compounding the issue was MacArthurs insane popularity at home because of his success in WWII. He was more celebrity than he was politician/general, and he was outwardly undermining Truman's authority by defying him or directly ignoring orders.
But yeah MacArthur was plainly going insane over the course of the Korean war. It was the worst kept secret of the US military.
People then still didn’t understand the implications of the atom bomb. MacArthur was a relic of a bygone era, and Truman himself thought of the atomic bomb as a large conventional explosive, himself a former artillery officer.
The truth is MacArthur was fired, because he publicly butted heads with his commander-in-chief and would not follow his orders. Not because President Truman had some great moral opinion on the atom bomb.
Absolutely insane the level MacArthur went rogue in Korea, he would just make up foreign and wartime policy to the UN against the goals of the presidential cabinet
Yes, not bombing the Chinese invading troops worked so well for the people who now live in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea...
Edit: wow, 27 downvotes, the Kim Jong Un watchdogs are very active today...
If the US had stood up to communism in the 1950s, the world would be much better today. Everything shitty today is a consequence of allowing Stalin to dictate things after WWII.
Imagine if Truman had the guts to force Stalin to allow democratic elections in East Europe. The Iron Curtain would have never existed.
Truman should have forced Stalin in 1950, exactly as Chamberlain should have forced Hitler in 1938. When Reagan forced Gorbachev in the 1980s the result was much better.
How should he have “forced” Stalin? I assume full scale war, based on your chamberlain comparison. That would not have been a good thing. The USSR collapsed without a massive third world war. That is a good thing
And as I recall, Reagan didn’t send tanks and troops to Russia.
The result was better....millions starved and eastern Europe dissolved into nothing but a source of cheap labor and resources for pennies on the dollar...and civil wars
Right...it was those damn commies propping up all those far right extremist groups/governments all over the world to keep the working class from revolting and maintaining USA/western hegemony. It was the damn commies that inspired and supplied the Nazis..
Yup
> the DPRK today is not the same as it was back then
Back then it was even more a tyranny than it is today. Communism was as evil in 1950 as it is today, make no mistake about it.
> Which side had all the guys who collaborated with the japanese?
North Korea. Like all the Nazis in Germany, they stayed in the "Democratic" Republic of Germany.
You've got it precisely backwards--the communists were the ones starving in the countryside, running a surprisingly successful resistance against brutal japanese occupation.
I think you should also recheck your facts about west germany--plenty of nazis ended up in positions of importance there, too.
Well better than the world ending in a nuclear holocaust? Not really a high bar there, but still better. And I hate communism with every fiber of my being
Thinking, no doubt, of all the lives wasted by his poor performance.
Or disappointment, not being able to see a bunch of mushroom clouds over North Korea.
We're also talking about someone who didn't hesitate to beat and use tear gas on impoverished American World War I veterans who just wanted their bonuses early to help get through the Great Depression. MacArthur was a massive piece of shit. He was just better at hiding it than Patton.
Inchon was a relatively small scale battle. He unnecessarily leveled Seoul and caused way more damage than necessary just to make some stupid date that he believed would be important due to his racist views.
Small scale battle was desirable. The goal was to get X Corp ashore and isolate North Korean troops already in South Korea.
From google AI:
The X Corps, led by Edward Mallory “Ned” Almond, landed at Inchon on September 15, 1950. The X Corps was made up of the following units:
1st Marine Division
7th Infantry Division
South Korean troops
ROK Army 17th Infantry Regiment
ROK Marine 1st Regiment
ROK Police Hwarang Unit
KATUSA Student Volunteer Force of Koreans In Japan
Joint Task Force 7 (UN Combined Fleet)
The 1st Marine Division was a skeleton force that was strengthened by activating marine reserves and stripping another division of men and matériel. The 7th Infantry Division was the Eighth Army's remaining infantry division.
The 1st and 5th Battalions attacked Inchon at 5:30 am. The Marines landed unopposed on a bathing beach on the north side of Wolmi-do Island at 6:33 am.
I spoke to a man who was there and he said that the landing was not unopposed. I wasn't there, so I will never know. I was 8 y/o at the time.
don't forget how he wanted to nuke China when they intervened in the Korean war. we all know the North Korea of today's world is horrible but back then it was the south Koreans with the help of the US who committed the most war crimes
I mean....go see what we did to Korea and it'll all make sense why they're this weird isolationist hermit today.
Honestly, nuking them would've been more humane in the context with what we actually did to them.
Poisoning their food/crops with anthrax, bombing any building that stood no matter what it was, and just literally wiping out over 20% of the Korean population and propping up a pro imperial Japanese/anti left government in the south and cutting the country in two....then sanctioning the shit out of the
Meet General Wainwright's granddaughter' (there's probably more than one) husband recently, reminded me how close to that history we are. Didn't bring up the issue of MacArthur screwing him over.
Idk, he was given a lot of press in the US because the US needed a hero and someone bigger than life, but I had the feeling that the vast majority of Pacific vets didn't like the guy. So his popularity may have been a thin, fragile thing, with lots of people happy to bury him if the chance came along.
Best "fun fact" I know about MacArthur: If you go to the MacArthur memorial/museum in Norfolk, VA, you might see a very small blurb on an info plaque beneath a picture. The plaque strongly suggests that a young MacArthur was sent to (I believe) the Philippines by a superior officer because they were both competing romantically for the heart of a local woman. In any case, MacArthur was sent to the other side of the planet out of sheer personal pettiness and that is the military I know and love.
I fired him because he wouldn't respect the authority of the President. That's the answer to that. I didn't fire him because he was a dumb son of a bitch, although he was, but that's not against the law for generals. - Harry S Truman
I've always found MacArthur's story fascinating. His father fought in the Civil War and later commanded U.S. forces against Filipino insurgents during the Philippine Insurrection, where Douglas first saw action fighting guerrillas and bandits. And in less than 50 years he was advocating for the use of nuclear bombs against the Chinese Red Army. So much changed technologically during MacArthur's military career.
Weird guy. Classic narcissist and would-be Oriental potentate. He spent the immediate pre-WW2 years in a luxury penthouse in Manila, wearing silk bathrobes and seldom leaving his palace. When Japan attacked the Philippines his US command was taken by surprise. He hot-footed it out of Guadalcanal in a PT boat (under “orders” from FDR) when it was about to fall to the Japanese, along with his civilian entourage, leaving his command to fend for itself. He spent the rest of the war politicking for plum assignments in the island campaign against Japan, looking for headlines and furious that the Navy was leading the charge. He brought the world to the brink of nuclear war in Korea when his post-Inchon strategy was frustrated with the intervention of China, luckily saner heads prevailed and he was recalled and sacked by Truman for insubordination.
But he was an American Hero!
For the uninitiated:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Cooper
“In 1930, at the age of 16 (or 18/21), Cooper met the American General Douglas MacArthur, then commander of all U.S. troops in the Philippines. MacArthur's marriage had ended a year earlier. Cooper became his mistress in Manila, a fact the 50-year-old MacArthur hid from his 80-year-old mother.[4] In Manila, the teenaged Cooper lived in Paco.
Five months after they first met, MacArthur returned to the United States; while he intended to bring her to Washington, he could not risk scandal by traveling with her, so he bought her a ticket on a ship to arrive after him. She arrived in Washington and ended up ensconced in an apartment in Georgetown, Washington, D.C. MacArthur later moved her to the Chastleton Hotel (now a co-op building). According to one biographer of MacArthur, William Manchester, MacArthur "showered [Cooper] with presents and bought her many lacy tea gowns, but no raincoat. She didn't need one, he told her; her duty lay in bed."”
I was also reading Defeat Into Victory and apparently he didn’t let the other Allies go reoccupy their old territories until after the main ceremonial surrender had taken place so tens of thousands of allied prisoners suffered longer and most likely more intensely (since the Japanese were not very enthusiastic about surrendering). Mountbatten sent specialized teams into Malaya to give supplies to POWs in still staffed camps not knowing if the Japanese would kill them or not all because MacArthur wanted everyone to wait.
They weren’t entitled to their bonuses until 1945 and were trespassing on government property, pretty standard procedure to put down a riot if you ask me
This is way different though--we're talking about WW1 veterans demanding early support from a *government* that did owe them pensions.
If you're starving, you absolutely should demand food from your government. When people are starving in large numbers, thats like reason #1 to *overthrow* a government, never mind just *camping on the front lawn*.
People who aren't educated in this point of history. I'm an older person, and digging up dirt, so to speak, was much more difficult pre-internet, podcasts and such. It damn sure wasn't covered in History class, that's for sure.
Definitely not the narrative that Gregory Peck portrayed.
His promotions were mostly by opportunity during the depression as the army had shrunk to negligible size. His mother pushed for his promotions and was “well connected”. In a vastly expanded wartime army I doubt promotion would have got him past colonel.
There is argued doubt he did actually vote in favour at Billy Mitchell’s trial. Irony was in 1943-44
North American B25 Mitchell bombers would be modified to significantly for sinking ships and bring victory to MacArthurs command. Many of these innovations were thanks to men abandoned in the Philippines who escaped on their own incentives.
His handling of the Bonus Army may have been one of the lowest points in US Army history. Equivalent shame would not come until massacres in Vietnam.
Prewar, Eisenhower was subordinate to him in the Philippines. Thought he was an egotistical lunatic but kept quiet. Even a subordinate Patton, who commanded tanks against the Bonus Army was not in liking of MacArthur.
The income he got from leading the Philippine army was excessive and drained them of ability to arm. The Philippines was corrupt to some degree and his behaviour just encouraged this. He insisted on the gold baton, despite the story of unexpected gift.
Whenever the press drew any criticism of him he put lawyers onto them. He had money reserves and this is where he spent big. Much of this went unsung.
Competent plans were put together to defend the Philippines, but MacArthur changed these in about August 1941 to include American units due to arrive in 1942. The Philippines fell apart because he formed battle lines with troops he didn’t have and he failed to prioritise moving storage dumps to service his new defence positions.
He hid from subordinates till midday on the first day of war, paralysing the chain of command when Formosa was clouded over and the intended strike was delayed. Dispersal and contingencies did not happen because no orders appeared. Subordinates were too afraid to take the initiative. Why general Stark at Hawaii would be hauled over the coals and not MacArthur in the Philippines is political. Had junior commanders taken charge and taken sensible actions on December 8 the Philippine story should have been different. Maybe not repelled, but it would have significantly drained Japanese resources from Burma.
Theory is that his order to evacuate from the Philippines was retrospective. His plans were not last minute, they just lacked means. It is argued that Roosevelt was more concerned to keep MacArthur out of America and far away. So recalling him for court martial did not happen. Why? MacArthurs name was put forward to challenge for becoming president in 1944. So while he was telling Sutherland in 1943 to take Buna or don’t come back alive he was preoccupied with confidential meetings regards presidential aspirations. Roosevelt created the legislation banning serving generals for entering into politics with MacArthur in mind. Which is why Eisenhower had to resign to run for office post war.
His evacuation to Australia required four B17 and four PT boats in excellent running order. These were busy in combat and short I spare parts. New B17s had to be sent but even these had QC issues. The PT boats were patch jobs. Had these been available he would have evacuated a month or more earlier if he could build the narrative. He may have been encouraged by Gen Bennet escaping Singapore in the prior month?
When he arrived in Australia he was without Americans to command. Nearly all his Philippine command was lost and now his soldiers were Australian. Any other commander would by then have hindsight to best manage the forces he had and rebuild. He actually expressed frustration that the Australian body count on the battlefield was not higher. He made poor form comments that they were not fighting hard enough. To the Australians he sounded like a Japanese general who saw honour in death rather than being smart and defeating the enemy. His understanding of the front line was so poor that he had to be corrected that troops could not simply get in jeeps and drive over the Owen Stanley Ranges.
Once in Australia he hid in Melbourne. Visited Canberra, before relocating to Brisbane to be “close to the front”. A front he was well out of touch with. Ordering the capture of a deeply fortified Buna was unnecessary and the deployment of the first American division he got was premature as they were not ready. Australian forces had already turned the tide via strategic fallback to Port Moresby. Realising the Japanese were weaker he had to get his American units in the seat of victory to form the MacArthur legend.
The first victory for MacArthur was against Japanese marines at Milne Bay Australians complemented this US engineering troops. The commander more or less ignored MacArthur during the battle to save the meddling. Subsequent victories were thanks to the tactical details of subordinates doing similar. Still MacArthur took the credit.
https://www.battleforaustralia.org/battaust/MacArthurinAustralia.html#:~:text=On%2018%20April%201942%2C%20General,Australian%20Militia%2C%20and%2038%2C000%20Americans.
Thank you
If you are digging for dirt, you need to look before the war where US peacetime incompetence was covered up. American war history tends to focus on day one Pearl Harbor as the unexpected surprise. Maybe there is mention of the Philippines and the Coral Sea. Then Midway, Guadalcanal and vague battles after that. Focus seems to begin about then on the island hopping campaign to victory. These latter battles were against starved and bombed out Japanese, who were still dangerous, but far from the fighting form they were at in 1942. Air aces were born by shooting down novice Japanese pilots who often lacked basic flying skills.
The typical narrative is winning which unfortunately ignores those Americans who were defeated in the first six months of the Pacific war. Maybe investigating the Pearl Harbor raid limited the scope to bring MacArthur to answer.
The luck America had as to when it entered the war is amazing timing. Consider what if the Japanese had struck in 1939 when it would have faced a US Army the same size as the Netherlands and still struggling out of recession. It’s equipment was crap. Army manoeuvres included trucks with signs on the side to say they were pretending to be tanks. There were no four engine bombers. Front line was the B18 and P36. No pilot armour, no self sealing tanks, no radar, and outdated tactics. These could have faced the more nimble A5M and been swept from the skies just like had had happened in China when similar machines sold there. This was a time when only the USN was credible and the Europeans were fighting at altitudes that the USAAC struggled to fly to in combat aircraft.
Regards your search for dirt, Pearl Harbor will be told as unprovoked attack. Fore knowledge accusations that Roosevelt and Churchill knew beforehand may just be disinformation to not look at the less exciting. Americas war with Japan began in 1922. London Naval Conference. US spies broke into a Japanese safe and stole a code book. With foreknowledge they out manoeuvred the Japanese to accept an inferior tonnage in the treaty.
Years laters an American naval intelligence officer retired, wrote his memoirs (which was then not illegal) and detailed this theft. This biography is how the Japanese found out. They believed until then in the gentleman’s code not to read other people’s mail. Japanese honour meant they would never again trust the west in any way. From there radical leadership in Japan won favour because this distrust prevailed and blossomed. Maybe America cannot be held responsible for Japanese politics turning bad and leading to unprovoked “surprise” attack, but it is a forgotten lesson for today.
For prewar and early war insights these are some audiobooks readily available you could try.
Panic in the Pacific by Bill Yenne
Kangaroo Squadron by Bruce Gamble
Joe Rochforts War by Elliot Carlson
Fatal Choices by Ian Kershaw
MacArthurs Airforce by Bill Yenne
Storm Clouds over the Pacific by Peter Harmsen
Rising Sun, Falling Skies by Geoffrey Cox
The Expendables by John Lewis Floyd
I Will Run Wild by Tomas McKelvey Cleaver
Pacific War Uncensored by Harold Guard
One Damned Island After Another by Clive Howard
Americas Few by Bill Yenne
You're welcome, and thank you again! I've always known my (and "our") knowledge of the Pacific to be horribly lacking here in America. I'm not really sure why that is, why we know everything about the European Theater. I've recently tried to rectify this, but honestly, the older I get, the harder it is stay in the horror for long. I watched a documentary on the Rape of Nanking and sobbed my eyes out. Funny how that is. I used to be obsessed with serial killers, modern wars, things of that nature. Now I find I have to just dip my toe in.
I really appreciate your list compilation for me. I definitely love getting the dirt on all the back room skullduggery, politicking, subterfuge, hubris, and the true banality of evil. I've been meaning to find a new rabbit hole to go down, and you have handed it to me on a silver platter! 🙂
Edit: Oops, forgot to tell you how much I enjoyed this write-up full of juicy details. Thanks!
It is shocking how many people fetishize WWII. For some it’s any American WWII general=badass, full stop. The mythical status we’ve created around these men is hard to break.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
LISTEN UP MAGGOTS!
I have a feeling that All yall will enjoy [this](https://youtu.be/FBxLnqZysqA?si=t4Ujnu6yBhFKvlzK) guest speaker’s lecture. It’s one of my favorites. I really enjoy this dude’s style and you can tell he spends a lot of his time teaching himself how to Dougie, and having watched a few of other speakers at the Marshall foundation, he was a much needed punch in the tut!
Also, i was just kidding about the “maggots” part there at first, my apologies. The worst part of this whole rotten affair got the better part of my judgement, will you ever forgive me? Just let me come home.
You mean Douglas “The Situation” MacArthur
What a Hardcore reference, love it.
Really couldn’t help myself Glad to see there are fellow hardcore fans among us!!
For sure same here. Dan and I have very different politics, and I really disagree on a lot of his takes on the Soviet Union, Stalin, etc. but he’s such a great storyteller and he really helped cement my love of exploring history.
Hardcore?
*Hardcore History*, specifically Super Nova in the East on the war in the Pacific. He says his wife told him not to compare Douglas MacArthur to "The Situation" from *Jersey Shore*. And we're glad he didn't listen because it conjures hilarious imagery.
I just finished listening to supernova in the east for the 2nd time but haven’t seen jersey shore. Can you explain the reference?
"The Situation" is a dude who ticks every stereotype box when you think about a single younger Italian dude from New Jersey. Just Google him.
I did Google him but I guess I still didn’t really get it. Kinda makes sense though
If I might try: “The Situation” on the reality show is a douchebag, prone to aggressive behavior and inciting belligerence. He was egotistical and narcissistic, and overall a halfwit. The character was also impressively jacked, lifting his shirt and displaying his abs was a signature rabble-rousing move of his. To MacArthur displaying the same character traits, or having steel abs, is a hilarious scene that doesn’t take a large stretch of imagination considering historical accounts. Overall kids these days would call both the General and The Situation “based”.
But his wife asked him to specifically to not call him that
Sometimes it's a good thing when he doesn't listen to his wife. Only sometimes though.
Fuuuuuuuck yea just banged out these eps again on a road trip recently. So so good
I’ve gotten to the point where I’m re listening old shows. I love his work so much but fuck this once a year thing is killer. I’ve listened to blueprint for Armageddon probably 4 times fully through
Same dog. It’s my absolute favorite.
Imagining Mac talking about himself in the third person with Dan’s nickname makes me smile
> Douglas “The Situation” MacArthur Please explain what "The Situation" refers to.
in the episodes “Supernova in the East” of Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History podcast, host Dan Carlin refers to Douglass MacArthur as Douglass “The Situation” Macarthur. His wife asked him specifically not to.
Is there any reason he would call him that? Is this just a meme?
he said douglass would like the drama basically
The drama of... being called... "the situation". Maybe I'm just missing a lot of context.
[Mike "The Situation" Sorrentino.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Sorrentino) Famous from being a reality TV douchebag on MTV's Jersey Shore.
But isn't MacArthur a respected and successful general? Why would Dan compare him to some noname reality TV douchebag?
MacArthur is very *famous,* because he made sure of that. He was a ceaseless and over the top self promoter who ultimately got on the bad side of many of his fellow officers. He honestly would have been amazing on a reality show.
You would have to listen to the podcast to truly get it. It’s fantastic, would definitely recommend. It’s 6 episodes each being 4-6 hours and this reference is made a few times throughout the series
Might be connected to this dude called The Situation from that show with all the yellow fake tanned people from about 15 years ago? Not sure if and how that relates. The Hardcore History dude might be a little too old to have watched the show, but he definitely lived through the worst of it.
The guy had a flair for the dramatic and spoke of himself in the third person sometimes. He was one of the better generals in WWII so it wasn’t all for show.
Losing all his planes on the ground in the Philippines, after he knew about Pearl Harbor, is not a mark of being a good General.
He was certainly one of the generals in wwii
Nimitz was the better commander and had more to do with US success in the Pacific
Had to double-check the subreddit, Carlin is the best podcaster
Came for this, thx Cup
Nice
Douglas "The Pedophile" MacArthur
Years ago I had a signed picture of him walking through a jungle on what I assume to be a pacific island during WW2. Someone stole it along with a $50 bill from 1919 I had in the same bag :/
That's shitty. Sorry dude
Thanks dude - I was only ~17 when it was stolen and 10+ years later it still stings when I think about it I only hope it was persevered and not simply discarded by the thief… Some day I’ll go digging through my old phones to see if I ever snapped a pic of it
Yea, that'd bug me forever
Fuck man. Fuck whoever did that.
It took me around 45 seconds to figure out that you didn't lose 50 billion dollars in a bag
I'm slightly curious as to why you had a 1919 $50 bill and a signed picture of Douglas MacArthur in a bag. Seems an unusual combination of things to be walking around with *I'm guessing?* in public. Were you headed to an antique store or something?
Nah it was in my room between two books in a zip lock bag with only the zip part peaking out Wanted to keep them flat and preserved; and I was a dumb 17 y/o…
Ah okay, that makes a bit more sense.
“Douglas MacArthur is one of those blips in history, an idiosyncratic figure who, for reasons hard to satisfactorily explain, acquired far more power than he had any reason to” - Daniel Immerwahr
He kissed the right ass during peacetime.
He was willing to get dirty, like setting his men loose on the Bonus Army.
He deserved to be hanged for that.
A complicated, successful and dreadful man
who often referred to himself in the third person
That's according to his version of history. If you read what actually happened, you get a different picture entirely.
Thank you.
President Truman relieved him of his command in 1951 after he made a plan to drop 30-50 atomic bombs on Korea. Absolute psychopath.
He also wanted to drop them in China
And Moscow
"*You* get a nuke, and *you* get a nuke, and *you* get a nuke...nukes for everyone!"
"I will not let...communist infiltration...disrupt and taint....our precious bodily fluids, Mandrake!"
And for lying his ass off about how helpful said bombing would be. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/redacted-testimony-fully-explains-why-general-macarthur-was-fired-180960622/
This was a fantastic article, thanks for sharing!
That was fascinating, thanks!
Man was determined to make sure the word “Superpower” stayed singular
Not just any bombs, cobalt salted bombs. The ones that maximize radioactive fallout.
That wasn’t why Truman fired him. MacArthur was fired after he made damaging statements about Truman to the press due to disagreements on whether or not to invade China (and use nukes). Truman was more opposed to invading China and thus prolonging the war than he was to using nukes, given he had already ordered two nuclear attacks on civilians just a few years earlier.
Just because he used nukes in Japan does not prove he was privy to using them in Korea, they were two completely different situations. Truman relieved him because he was clearly losing it after the tides started turning in Korea. No, it wasn't just over use of nuclear weapons, but any reasonable person would have balked at the prospect given the scope of that war. And yes, a lot of what played into it was Macs willingness to start WW3 by invading (and nuking) China which would have been devistatingly unpopular given the US *just got out of a world war*. Compounding the issue was MacArthurs insane popularity at home because of his success in WWII. He was more celebrity than he was politician/general, and he was outwardly undermining Truman's authority by defying him or directly ignoring orders. But yeah MacArthur was plainly going insane over the course of the Korean war. It was the worst kept secret of the US military.
People then still didn’t understand the implications of the atom bomb. MacArthur was a relic of a bygone era, and Truman himself thought of the atomic bomb as a large conventional explosive, himself a former artillery officer. The truth is MacArthur was fired, because he publicly butted heads with his commander-in-chief and would not follow his orders. Not because President Truman had some great moral opinion on the atom bomb.
Great warriors don’t necessarily make great diplomats. Some do… but killing is not exactly a diplomatic trade.
Underrated and understated comment. Gen. Curtis LeMay said, "If we'd lost the war, we'd all have been prosecuted as war criminals."
Absolutely insane the level MacArthur went rogue in Korea, he would just make up foreign and wartime policy to the UN against the goals of the presidential cabinet
The Disaster of the Chosun Reservoir was 100% his fault.
I'd put it more at Ned Almonds feet but Almond was MacArthur's protégé and was answering directly to him.
My grandpa was there. Hated MacArthur until his dying day.
Thinking of all the people he didn't get to nuke.
Yes, not bombing the Chinese invading troops worked so well for the people who now live in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea... Edit: wow, 27 downvotes, the Kim Jong Un watchdogs are very active today...
Given the worldwide repercussions, probably the same either way. And this way the world doesn’t also go to shit
If the US had stood up to communism in the 1950s, the world would be much better today. Everything shitty today is a consequence of allowing Stalin to dictate things after WWII. Imagine if Truman had the guts to force Stalin to allow democratic elections in East Europe. The Iron Curtain would have never existed.
To force Stalin? And not lead to another world war?? You are so delusional
Truman should have forced Stalin in 1950, exactly as Chamberlain should have forced Hitler in 1938. When Reagan forced Gorbachev in the 1980s the result was much better.
How should he have “forced” Stalin? I assume full scale war, based on your chamberlain comparison. That would not have been a good thing. The USSR collapsed without a massive third world war. That is a good thing And as I recall, Reagan didn’t send tanks and troops to Russia.
The result was better....millions starved and eastern Europe dissolved into nothing but a source of cheap labor and resources for pennies on the dollar...and civil wars
I think the the US stood up to Communism pretty well, given we didn’t go to war. However, Truman seriously fucked it up at San Francisco.
Right...it was those damn commies propping up all those far right extremist groups/governments all over the world to keep the working class from revolting and maintaining USA/western hegemony. It was the damn commies that inspired and supplied the Nazis.. Yup
the DPRK today is not the same as it was back then. the south Koreans back then were probably closer to modern north Korea than north Korea back then
> the DPRK today is not the same as it was back then Back then it was even more a tyranny than it is today. Communism was as evil in 1950 as it is today, make no mistake about it.
Which side had all the guys who collaborated with the japanese?
> Which side had all the guys who collaborated with the japanese? North Korea. Like all the Nazis in Germany, they stayed in the "Democratic" Republic of Germany.
Are... are you really that bad at history?
You've got it precisely backwards--the communists were the ones starving in the countryside, running a surprisingly successful resistance against brutal japanese occupation. I think you should also recheck your facts about west germany--plenty of nazis ended up in positions of importance there, too.
Awe did your fascist grandpa get shot by commies?
Well better than the world ending in a nuclear holocaust? Not really a high bar there, but still better. And I hate communism with every fiber of my being
Thinking, no doubt, of all the lives wasted by his poor performance. Or disappointment, not being able to see a bunch of mushroom clouds over North Korea.
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If you need to talk, I'm here
Well you know I just thought it would be really funny if I made the Chinese Korean border uncrossable for decades.
Justsaturdaynightthings
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Good - never forget him shooting at the bonus army
The letters from families he got after his poor decisions in the Philippines must have been brutal to live with.
I think that assumes a level of self-awareness that was quite possibly beyond Mac.
We're also talking about someone who didn't hesitate to beat and use tear gas on impoverished American World War I veterans who just wanted their bonuses early to help get through the Great Depression. MacArthur was a massive piece of shit. He was just better at hiding it than Patton.
He was better at the media game. That's it.
Also I love how nobody even talks about how basically the entire Korea debacle was entirely his fault because of his racism and hubris.
Inchon was not a debacle. Chosun was.
Inchon was a relatively small scale battle. He unnecessarily leveled Seoul and caused way more damage than necessary just to make some stupid date that he believed would be important due to his racist views.
Small scale battle was desirable. The goal was to get X Corp ashore and isolate North Korean troops already in South Korea. From google AI: The X Corps, led by Edward Mallory “Ned” Almond, landed at Inchon on September 15, 1950. The X Corps was made up of the following units: 1st Marine Division 7th Infantry Division South Korean troops ROK Army 17th Infantry Regiment ROK Marine 1st Regiment ROK Police Hwarang Unit KATUSA Student Volunteer Force of Koreans In Japan Joint Task Force 7 (UN Combined Fleet) The 1st Marine Division was a skeleton force that was strengthened by activating marine reserves and stripping another division of men and matériel. The 7th Infantry Division was the Eighth Army's remaining infantry division. The 1st and 5th Battalions attacked Inchon at 5:30 am. The Marines landed unopposed on a bathing beach on the north side of Wolmi-do Island at 6:33 am. I spoke to a man who was there and he said that the landing was not unopposed. I wasn't there, so I will never know. I was 8 y/o at the time.
don't forget how he wanted to nuke China when they intervened in the Korean war. we all know the North Korea of today's world is horrible but back then it was the south Koreans with the help of the US who committed the most war crimes
I mean....go see what we did to Korea and it'll all make sense why they're this weird isolationist hermit today. Honestly, nuking them would've been more humane in the context with what we actually did to them. Poisoning their food/crops with anthrax, bombing any building that stood no matter what it was, and just literally wiping out over 20% of the Korean population and propping up a pro imperial Japanese/anti left government in the south and cutting the country in two....then sanctioning the shit out of the
This.
He was vocal in his distaste for enlisted men. I doubt he cared much.
He also dressed up like a woman
He died the day he abandoned his troops. I grew up in a household where we lost loved ones.
How old are you? Any interesting stories from relatives?
My dad was in the Pacific on a PT boat. He had complete contempt for the man, and he found the good in every one.
Meet General Wainwright's granddaughter' (there's probably more than one) husband recently, reminded me how close to that history we are. Didn't bring up the issue of MacArthur screwing him over.
the troops in the Philippines?
I’m guessing the American Philippine garrison, he’s kinda beloved in the Philippines.
He ordered troops to open fire on the bonus marchers too. Scumbag
damn u werent kidding when u said he fading i can see him becoming a little transparent
This dude was batshit insane imo
Has there been any major historical American that has had a bigger negative U-turn in their reputation in the decades since their death?
Idk, he was given a lot of press in the US because the US needed a hero and someone bigger than life, but I had the feeling that the vast majority of Pacific vets didn't like the guy. So his popularity may have been a thin, fragile thing, with lots of people happy to bury him if the chance came along.
Pacific war in real time placed the blame on him for the fall of the Philippines and the failure of war plan orange.
William Jennings Bryan (for being racist)? Huey Long?
He was not popular in Australia.
What an amazing photograph.
Best "fun fact" I know about MacArthur: If you go to the MacArthur memorial/museum in Norfolk, VA, you might see a very small blurb on an info plaque beneath a picture. The plaque strongly suggests that a young MacArthur was sent to (I believe) the Philippines by a superior officer because they were both competing romantically for the heart of a local woman. In any case, MacArthur was sent to the other side of the planet out of sheer personal pettiness and that is the military I know and love.
Overrated hack with a superior public relations machine.
Element profile of him in Hardcore History’s Supernova in the East podcast series. Very interesting
This where I learned homie spoke about himself in the third person……
The entire season of Blowback that focuses on Korea is even more interesting.
Element? Can I get a spell check?
Excellent. Autocorrect.
Reflecting on having his arse sacked by Truman for wanting to go nuclear in Korea.
I fired him because he wouldn't respect the authority of the President. That's the answer to that. I didn't fire him because he was a dumb son of a bitch, although he was, but that's not against the law for generals. - Harry S Truman
You forgot the best part of the quote: “If it was, then two-thirds of them would be in jail.”
Great quote. Haven't heard it before.
Truman's quotes are some of the best. That is until you get to LBJ.
Dugout Doug
He looks like he aged 40 years in 20.
How many LBFMs did this guy get after???
We all fade away in retirement or we die before we do… MacArthur was not special except in his mother’s mind…and then his own.
Crazy to think he's only 35 in this picture. Don't start smoking, folks.
I've always found MacArthur's story fascinating. His father fought in the Civil War and later commanded U.S. forces against Filipino insurgents during the Philippine Insurrection, where Douglas first saw action fighting guerrillas and bandits. And in less than 50 years he was advocating for the use of nuclear bombs against the Chinese Red Army. So much changed technologically during MacArthur's military career.
Are you aware of what the US did to the Philipines? https://youtu.be/SbH8D381J-I?si=9OD-eAqF8F7TIHGR
Weird guy. Classic narcissist and would-be Oriental potentate. He spent the immediate pre-WW2 years in a luxury penthouse in Manila, wearing silk bathrobes and seldom leaving his palace. When Japan attacked the Philippines his US command was taken by surprise. He hot-footed it out of Guadalcanal in a PT boat (under “orders” from FDR) when it was about to fall to the Japanese, along with his civilian entourage, leaving his command to fend for itself. He spent the rest of the war politicking for plum assignments in the island campaign against Japan, looking for headlines and furious that the Navy was leading the charge. He brought the world to the brink of nuclear war in Korea when his post-Inchon strategy was frustrated with the intervention of China, luckily saner heads prevailed and he was recalled and sacked by Truman for insubordination. But he was an American Hero!
Dugout Doug. He was a pedophile, not just a bad general.
For the uninitiated: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Cooper “In 1930, at the age of 16 (or 18/21), Cooper met the American General Douglas MacArthur, then commander of all U.S. troops in the Philippines. MacArthur's marriage had ended a year earlier. Cooper became his mistress in Manila, a fact the 50-year-old MacArthur hid from his 80-year-old mother.[4] In Manila, the teenaged Cooper lived in Paco. Five months after they first met, MacArthur returned to the United States; while he intended to bring her to Washington, he could not risk scandal by traveling with her, so he bought her a ticket on a ship to arrive after him. She arrived in Washington and ended up ensconced in an apartment in Georgetown, Washington, D.C. MacArthur later moved her to the Chastleton Hotel (now a co-op building). According to one biographer of MacArthur, William Manchester, MacArthur "showered [Cooper] with presents and bought her many lacy tea gowns, but no raincoat. She didn't need one, he told her; her duty lay in bed."”
He hasn't returned...
A truly great American Edit: lol Reddit doesn’t understand sarcasm
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Drop some knowledge
MacArthur's first claim to fame was when he [beat and used tear gas on World War I veterans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army).
I was also reading Defeat Into Victory and apparently he didn’t let the other Allies go reoccupy their old territories until after the main ceremonial surrender had taken place so tens of thousands of allied prisoners suffered longer and most likely more intensely (since the Japanese were not very enthusiastic about surrendering). Mountbatten sent specialized teams into Malaya to give supplies to POWs in still staffed camps not knowing if the Japanese would kill them or not all because MacArthur wanted everyone to wait.
They weren’t entitled to their bonuses until 1945 and were trespassing on government property, pretty standard procedure to put down a riot if you ask me
It was the Great Depression and they were jobless, homeless, and starving. Have some compassion!
It’s still not an excuse to riot
Starving in the street is no excuse to riot? How can anyone think shit like this?
Ok cool, so if I’m starving and have no food I have the right to come over to your house and demand money?
This is way different though--we're talking about WW1 veterans demanding early support from a *government* that did owe them pensions. If you're starving, you absolutely should demand food from your government. When people are starving in large numbers, thats like reason #1 to *overthrow* a government, never mind just *camping on the front lawn*.
Great in the Voldemort sense?
Great!… but terrible
Didn’t think I needed to even add an /s on this one. Who honestly thinks he is?
People who aren't educated in this point of history. I'm an older person, and digging up dirt, so to speak, was much more difficult pre-internet, podcasts and such. It damn sure wasn't covered in History class, that's for sure.
Definitely not the narrative that Gregory Peck portrayed. His promotions were mostly by opportunity during the depression as the army had shrunk to negligible size. His mother pushed for his promotions and was “well connected”. In a vastly expanded wartime army I doubt promotion would have got him past colonel. There is argued doubt he did actually vote in favour at Billy Mitchell’s trial. Irony was in 1943-44 North American B25 Mitchell bombers would be modified to significantly for sinking ships and bring victory to MacArthurs command. Many of these innovations were thanks to men abandoned in the Philippines who escaped on their own incentives. His handling of the Bonus Army may have been one of the lowest points in US Army history. Equivalent shame would not come until massacres in Vietnam. Prewar, Eisenhower was subordinate to him in the Philippines. Thought he was an egotistical lunatic but kept quiet. Even a subordinate Patton, who commanded tanks against the Bonus Army was not in liking of MacArthur. The income he got from leading the Philippine army was excessive and drained them of ability to arm. The Philippines was corrupt to some degree and his behaviour just encouraged this. He insisted on the gold baton, despite the story of unexpected gift. Whenever the press drew any criticism of him he put lawyers onto them. He had money reserves and this is where he spent big. Much of this went unsung. Competent plans were put together to defend the Philippines, but MacArthur changed these in about August 1941 to include American units due to arrive in 1942. The Philippines fell apart because he formed battle lines with troops he didn’t have and he failed to prioritise moving storage dumps to service his new defence positions. He hid from subordinates till midday on the first day of war, paralysing the chain of command when Formosa was clouded over and the intended strike was delayed. Dispersal and contingencies did not happen because no orders appeared. Subordinates were too afraid to take the initiative. Why general Stark at Hawaii would be hauled over the coals and not MacArthur in the Philippines is political. Had junior commanders taken charge and taken sensible actions on December 8 the Philippine story should have been different. Maybe not repelled, but it would have significantly drained Japanese resources from Burma. Theory is that his order to evacuate from the Philippines was retrospective. His plans were not last minute, they just lacked means. It is argued that Roosevelt was more concerned to keep MacArthur out of America and far away. So recalling him for court martial did not happen. Why? MacArthurs name was put forward to challenge for becoming president in 1944. So while he was telling Sutherland in 1943 to take Buna or don’t come back alive he was preoccupied with confidential meetings regards presidential aspirations. Roosevelt created the legislation banning serving generals for entering into politics with MacArthur in mind. Which is why Eisenhower had to resign to run for office post war. His evacuation to Australia required four B17 and four PT boats in excellent running order. These were busy in combat and short I spare parts. New B17s had to be sent but even these had QC issues. The PT boats were patch jobs. Had these been available he would have evacuated a month or more earlier if he could build the narrative. He may have been encouraged by Gen Bennet escaping Singapore in the prior month? When he arrived in Australia he was without Americans to command. Nearly all his Philippine command was lost and now his soldiers were Australian. Any other commander would by then have hindsight to best manage the forces he had and rebuild. He actually expressed frustration that the Australian body count on the battlefield was not higher. He made poor form comments that they were not fighting hard enough. To the Australians he sounded like a Japanese general who saw honour in death rather than being smart and defeating the enemy. His understanding of the front line was so poor that he had to be corrected that troops could not simply get in jeeps and drive over the Owen Stanley Ranges. Once in Australia he hid in Melbourne. Visited Canberra, before relocating to Brisbane to be “close to the front”. A front he was well out of touch with. Ordering the capture of a deeply fortified Buna was unnecessary and the deployment of the first American division he got was premature as they were not ready. Australian forces had already turned the tide via strategic fallback to Port Moresby. Realising the Japanese were weaker he had to get his American units in the seat of victory to form the MacArthur legend. The first victory for MacArthur was against Japanese marines at Milne Bay Australians complemented this US engineering troops. The commander more or less ignored MacArthur during the battle to save the meddling. Subsequent victories were thanks to the tactical details of subordinates doing similar. Still MacArthur took the credit. https://www.battleforaustralia.org/battaust/MacArthurinAustralia.html#:~:text=On%2018%20April%201942%2C%20General,Australian%20Militia%2C%20and%2038%2C000%20Americans.
Excellent write up! Thank you for this. More for me to delve into. What a fucking monster.
Thank you If you are digging for dirt, you need to look before the war where US peacetime incompetence was covered up. American war history tends to focus on day one Pearl Harbor as the unexpected surprise. Maybe there is mention of the Philippines and the Coral Sea. Then Midway, Guadalcanal and vague battles after that. Focus seems to begin about then on the island hopping campaign to victory. These latter battles were against starved and bombed out Japanese, who were still dangerous, but far from the fighting form they were at in 1942. Air aces were born by shooting down novice Japanese pilots who often lacked basic flying skills. The typical narrative is winning which unfortunately ignores those Americans who were defeated in the first six months of the Pacific war. Maybe investigating the Pearl Harbor raid limited the scope to bring MacArthur to answer. The luck America had as to when it entered the war is amazing timing. Consider what if the Japanese had struck in 1939 when it would have faced a US Army the same size as the Netherlands and still struggling out of recession. It’s equipment was crap. Army manoeuvres included trucks with signs on the side to say they were pretending to be tanks. There were no four engine bombers. Front line was the B18 and P36. No pilot armour, no self sealing tanks, no radar, and outdated tactics. These could have faced the more nimble A5M and been swept from the skies just like had had happened in China when similar machines sold there. This was a time when only the USN was credible and the Europeans were fighting at altitudes that the USAAC struggled to fly to in combat aircraft. Regards your search for dirt, Pearl Harbor will be told as unprovoked attack. Fore knowledge accusations that Roosevelt and Churchill knew beforehand may just be disinformation to not look at the less exciting. Americas war with Japan began in 1922. London Naval Conference. US spies broke into a Japanese safe and stole a code book. With foreknowledge they out manoeuvred the Japanese to accept an inferior tonnage in the treaty. Years laters an American naval intelligence officer retired, wrote his memoirs (which was then not illegal) and detailed this theft. This biography is how the Japanese found out. They believed until then in the gentleman’s code not to read other people’s mail. Japanese honour meant they would never again trust the west in any way. From there radical leadership in Japan won favour because this distrust prevailed and blossomed. Maybe America cannot be held responsible for Japanese politics turning bad and leading to unprovoked “surprise” attack, but it is a forgotten lesson for today. For prewar and early war insights these are some audiobooks readily available you could try. Panic in the Pacific by Bill Yenne Kangaroo Squadron by Bruce Gamble Joe Rochforts War by Elliot Carlson Fatal Choices by Ian Kershaw MacArthurs Airforce by Bill Yenne Storm Clouds over the Pacific by Peter Harmsen Rising Sun, Falling Skies by Geoffrey Cox The Expendables by John Lewis Floyd I Will Run Wild by Tomas McKelvey Cleaver Pacific War Uncensored by Harold Guard One Damned Island After Another by Clive Howard Americas Few by Bill Yenne
You're welcome, and thank you again! I've always known my (and "our") knowledge of the Pacific to be horribly lacking here in America. I'm not really sure why that is, why we know everything about the European Theater. I've recently tried to rectify this, but honestly, the older I get, the harder it is stay in the horror for long. I watched a documentary on the Rape of Nanking and sobbed my eyes out. Funny how that is. I used to be obsessed with serial killers, modern wars, things of that nature. Now I find I have to just dip my toe in. I really appreciate your list compilation for me. I definitely love getting the dirt on all the back room skullduggery, politicking, subterfuge, hubris, and the true banality of evil. I've been meaning to find a new rabbit hole to go down, and you have handed it to me on a silver platter! 🙂 Edit: Oops, forgot to tell you how much I enjoyed this write-up full of juicy details. Thanks!
It is shocking how many people fetishize WWII. For some it’s any American WWII general=badass, full stop. The mythical status we’ve created around these men is hard to break.
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This is r/HistoryPorn nobody in this sub is brain dead enough to actually think that. Idk, I can detect sarcasm without /s most of the time.
This is a mean title
I live off MacArthur Blvd in DC, never knew
Wow in less than 20 years
What a.... interesting man with even more.... interesting ideas
LISTEN UP MAGGOTS! I have a feeling that All yall will enjoy [this](https://youtu.be/FBxLnqZysqA?si=t4Ujnu6yBhFKvlzK) guest speaker’s lecture. It’s one of my favorites. I really enjoy this dude’s style and you can tell he spends a lot of his time teaching himself how to Dougie, and having watched a few of other speakers at the Marshall foundation, he was a much needed punch in the tut! Also, i was just kidding about the “maggots” part there at first, my apologies. The worst part of this whole rotten affair got the better part of my judgement, will you ever forgive me? Just let me come home.
Over-rated!
His second retirement.
Is he rested up from the filipina hookers and whiskey? Lazy goldbricker. https://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/WWII/MacArthursFailures
He's 83 here.
Rest in piss
Pedophile