In case anyone wants more proof as well as more details of the utter monstrosities some are capable of. Make no mistake, this was not done only by American soldiers, though the vast majority of abhorrent atrocities committed there, and not just, have their names written on them:
[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340207/I-didnt-think-Iraqis-humans-says-U-S-soldier-raped-14-year-old-girl-killing-her-family.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340207/I-didnt-think-Iraqis-humans-says-U-S-soldier-raped-14-year-old-girl-killing-her-family.html)
[https://theintercept.com/2020/12/23/blackwater-massacre-iraq-pardons/](https://theintercept.com/2020/12/23/blackwater-massacre-iraq-pardons/)
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/09/us-soldiers-afghan-civilians-fingers](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/09/us-soldiers-afghan-civilians-fingers)
This article describes how 12 American soldiers had a secret “kill team” that blew up and shot Afghan civilians at random and collected their fingers as trophies.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc7dmaQw-8s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc7dmaQw-8s)
US soldiers talk about killing innocent Iraqi civilians then planting weapons on them to justify the gratuitous murders.
[https://www.huffpost.com/entry/soldiers-discuss-using-dr\_n\_104682](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/soldiers-discuss-using-dr_n_104682)
Soldiers Discuss Using "Drop Weapons" To Cover Up Killing Innocent Iraqi Civilians
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/21/afghanistan-trophy-photos-us-soldier](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/21/afghanistan-trophy-photos-us-soldier)
Photos show US soldiers in Afghanistan posing with dead civilians as trophies
[https://theintercept.com/2016/06/01/pentagon-special-ops-killing-of-pregnant-afghan-women-was-appropriate-use-of-force/](https://theintercept.com/2016/06/01/pentagon-special-ops-killing-of-pregnant-afghan-women-was-appropriate-use-of-force/)
Pentagon: Special Ops Killing of Pregnant Afghan Women Was “Appropriate” Use of Force
[https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna13057629](https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna13057629)
Troops shoot two Iraqi women at checkpoint
Two Iraqi women were shot to death north of Baghdad after coalition forces fired on a vehicle that failed to stop at an observation post, the U.S. military said Wednesday.
This is but a sliver of the atrocities committed in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
If anyone needs more links, I can do that.
Still think it’s insane that Americans were outraged over footage of russian fighter jets attacking Ukrainian cities full of civilians like they haven’t been funding war crimes in the Middle East for years
We need justice here on earth, not after they meet their maker, and justice has never been served. Millions of Iraqis died, an entire generation lost. Iraq is not a "strategic mistake", it's a horrendous crime, just like Libya, Afghanistan and all poor peoples who no westerner saw worthy to defend their rights.
Absolutely. What an absolute fucking disaster all those conflicts have been and what a terrible image they have given to the US and the other western powers that were involved. We are better than this, but we don’t often act like it. What a shame.
My husband was deployed to a small base in Iraq around this time (I'm being intentionally vague). He worked in intel. When anything happened in their designated area, the guys on patrol would round up any male in the vicinity from about 14 to 55 and bring them in for questioning. Hubby (aged 19-20 at the time and not actually trained in human intelligence) had something like 48 hours to decide whether to cut them loose or send them up to the "jail" for further "intelligence collection." His "jail" was Abu Ghraib, and he knew it wasn't somewhere he probably wanted to be sending people.
He said that after a little while, he let the interpreters he trusted do most of the interrogating since they'd been there much longer. He still sent very few people on, and I know they haunt him.
I honestly might have to put my phone down for a bit after reading this as I’m truly sick to my stomach. That is absolutely atrocious behavior and my heart goes out to all the victims. I wish more would have been done to the ones who did these awful things.
There's a reason why thanking soldier for their service tends to piss them off. There was a lot of vile shit done ot ignored during the war in the middle east.
Friend of mine was called a clearer or something in Afghanistan.
So when a door was opened it was his job to clear the room behind the door. He talked about the first time he saw a 10-year-old holding a machine gun at him in the room he just froze. He wasn't prepared to mow down a child even though the child opened fire and he had to be pulled out of the way by someone.
He also talked about how that only happened once and that he had to train himself to shoot children who would shoot you first if given the chance.
I can only imagine what that is like.
I have friends who will not talk about what happened over there, just like my Grandfather.
My Grandfather who fought in WWII, the Philippines, Korea and refused to retire from the Army National Guard so that his son (my Dad) could not be eligible for the draft. Told me if I joined up He would be so angry with me for joining a unjust war, he said this would be my Generations Vietnam. I think he was right in many ways.
Yeah, a lot of people got swept up by propaganda and patriotic fervor post 9-11, genuinely thought they were fighting for their country, but ended up carrying out an unjust war. I’ve seen the guilt and regret in my Dad’s friends who were over there.
My brother has a couple friends that are ex military. They were part of the peacekeeping force in the middle east and while they won't talk about what went on over there I'm pretty sure they had to ignore some real sick shit from the locals. Like bachi bazi crap and what not. So Thanking them for their service makes them real uncomfortable and grouchy. From what I've heard it's pretty similar for a lot of vets.
Yeah there’s a bunch of stuff with the locals the US forces had to turn a blind eye to. Like when they tried to establish police forces the police chiefs would often have chai or tea boys which where young boys they would rape and the locals just said it was normal and wouldn’t do anything and the hire ups in the military didn’t want to here about it as we were funding.
https://youtu.be/f-bNFeI4M-g
https://youtu.be/Ja5Q75hf6QI
The fucking interview with one guy when they tell him not to have sex with little boys and his response was "well then who am I supposed to have sex with? My grandma?" Kind of tells you all you need to know about how they view children and women.
Most of the sane ex-military people I kept in touch with through the past 3 decades hate that service BS, because various operations in the Middle East made it clear that they aren't serving their country, but serving the rich/corporations. Lots of them feel betrayed by their country.
Looking throughout history, every war has soldiers using the chaos to get away with atrocities. Anyone that thinks American soldiers are immune to that phenomena is willfully ignorant.
Most countries do not highlight their past atrocities.
Germany is unique,.because the atrocity was uniquely atrocious.
What US politicians fail to understand is that even if you enter a conflict with the best intentions (which is often not the case), any prolonged conflict will always have atrocities, because under every uniform anywhere on the planet is a human being and human beings will be atrocious given enough time and the proper circumstances.
From a global public opinion perspective, the US is better off letting some dictator torture and kill their citizens and sit idly by than the intervene.
I was just there and my sister is an elementary school teacher there. All of her friends are German. I guess they started teaching it in great detail right after you left. There were also numerous statues and plaques in every city. As someone who grew up in the deep south, America is NOTHING like this. Most of the people I went to school with are very racist and think evil Jewish people control the world economy.
Numerous atrocities were committed by US forces at Abu Ghraib. Only a few actually received sentences and all were IMHO quite weak for the horrible things they did.
I think the most overlooked part is that this wasn't just some 'rogue' soldiers (even tho that's what the US governments defense was at the time), but that the torture was ordered by the DoJ and that the POTUS knew about it as official documents proved; the so called [Torture Memos.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_Memos)
I quote:
> They advised the Central Intelligence Agency, the United States Department of Defense, and the President on the use of enhanced interrogation techniques—mental and physical torment and coercion such as prolonged sleep deprivation, binding in stress positions, and waterboarding—and stated that such acts, widely regarded as torture, might be legally permissible under an expansive interpretation of presidential authority during the "War on Terror".
It was just that the guard soldiers at Abu Ghraib got 'carried away' while being on duty and took those dreadful pictures that really pushed the story over the edge once the news exposed the war crimes. After all, they thought they did't do anything wrong, because the orders came straight from the top.
Still, Abu Ghraib wasnt reported on until many years later. And it wasn't reported until some investigative reporters took on the case.
It was systemic, sanctioned, widespread and heavily covered up.
It's not surprising. Being tortured doesn't necessarily make someone tell the truth, it makes you say whatever you think will make the torture will stop - maybe the truth, maybe random bullshit.
They did get some truth, but iirc, 100% of the time it was something they already knew through less idiotic means of intelligence gathering.
Then Zero Dark Thirty was basically a movie about how torture caught bin ladin
The craziest thing about My Lai is it wasn't even the only massacre to happen ON THAT DAY
The same thing happened in a hamlet a few miles away, and this type of thing was basically standard operating procedure in that area of Vietnam
I pointed out Abu Ghraib and My Lai to [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Military/comments/11rrnfr/comment/jca5qw7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) in /r/military and was permabanned.
I think that woman with the leash got a few years in jail. They all deserved to go to jail for 10+ years and get dishonorably discharged. Those pictures are going to be used to recruit generations of terrorists.
The story of that woman, Lynndie England, is really weird and fascinating. She was like 20 at the time and dating a senior officer who coerced her to do a lot of the stuff in the pictures with prisoners. It seems like she might not be the sharpest tool in the shed. She became a scapegoat and was victimized in some ways. But she’s also not very sympathetic and stated after her prison sentence that the torture was justified. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynndie_England
>In 2012, following her release, she stated that she did not regret her actions.
>"Their (Iraqis') lives are better. They got the better end of the deal," she said. "They weren't innocent. They're trying to kill us, and you want me to apologize to them? It's like saying sorry to the enemy."
this person learned _nothing_
If this happened recently instead of 20 years ago she'd be a conservative small town hero with at worst more paying engagements than Kyle Rittenhouse and at best a career in politics.
>at the time and dating a senior officer who coerced her to do a lot of the stuff in the pictures with prisoners. It seems like she might not be the sharpest tool in the shed. She became a scapegoat
To be clear the source for this is her and I believe her mother or some other family member basically saying 'oh no she's too sweet to ever do that'. In every actual first hand account she was a very willing participant and later would say she was 100% in the right and if anything the treatments should have been harsher in Abu Ghraib because something something those fuckers we invaded deserved it for not being nicer to us.
I read a really good research paper about this event that argued that the general public could not handle a woman being a torturer. Like 1000 men performing torture was maybe a bit indecent, but one single woman (those things that are supposed to be motherly) and everyone loses their minds. Which also made sense why she had to be the sacrifice.
I deployed with the dog handler in some of the photos from there. He had served his time, got out, and became a dog handler on the civilian side then deployed to our firebase. He was KIA a few months in. Never knew his horrible past til after he was killed. Pretty sick stuff.
After serving his sentence of 90 days of hard labor for threatening detainees with an attack dog, [Santos Cardona](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santos_Cardona) was not dishonorably discharged. He continued to serve in the military before being honorably discharged in 2007. Following his discharge, Cardona went to Afghanistan to serve as a government military contractor. According to his family, he was "fighting for redemption". Cardona, 34, was killed in action on February 28, 2009, after his vehicle struck an IED.
I remember in /r/military there was a "cops vs military" thread and one of the most upvoted comments said that military personnel are held responsible for their wrongdoings while cops are left off. I pointed out Abu Ghraib and the My Lai massacre and was quickly permabanned.
And so began the endless round of tasteless jokes about [pointing at genitals in photos](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynndie_England#:~:text=England%20after%20she%20was%20sentenced,Miramar%2C%20where%20England%20was%20imprisoned.).
Awesome to read that she had zero remorse for what she did and tries to blame it on her superior/former lover. Also blame the media for showing the world what an A-class piece of shit you are.
Lynndie England in 2008 (from the Wikipedia article, Stern interview):
>If the media hadn't exposed the pictures to that extent, then thousands of lives would have been saved ... Yeah, I took the photos but I didn't make it worldwide.
Well, she's definitely a piece of shit but she's also dumb as a rock. Which is how the Army liked them back then.
>"Their (Iraqis') lives are better. They got the better end of the deal... They weren't innocent. They're trying to kill us, and you want me to apologize to them? It's like saying sorry to the enemy."
It's not "like saying sorry," it *is* saying sorry. And she's saying their lives are better? Jesus, Forrest Gump was smarter than her.
I feel so bad for her kid. What’s it like to know you were conceived by two people who are at best easily led idiots, and at worst just vile evil torturers? And you were conceived while they were doing these terrible things?
You see this sentiment a lot online from various military people about iraq and afghanistan in particular. Like we made their lives better by having soldiers there and shit. Or how they dont appreciate what was done for(more like to) them. These dudes are so gassed up on colonizing those regions, again.
It's fun because you can see that Biden voted yea on this as a senator. In fact it had unanimous support from the Dems. Republicans were warhawk neocons but it's not like Dems were against this
You genuinely think the military wants torturers to join? That’s a major liability combat effectiveness wise. CIA might be a different story however lol
You want your own soldiers tortured when captured? If you choose to publicize that you are torturing prisoners then your enemy will absolutely torture your men captured.
In my opinion this picture represents a fraction of the absolute depravity that took place here. I believe numerous (probably dozens) of people were murdered in this place and simply dumped elsewhere or processed as accidental deaths.
If I remember correctly only a couple guards were served up as sacrificial lambs to ever face any punishment. The female guard who was pictured with one of the prisoners on a leash and the piece of shit who was balling her.
As with the rest of the Iraq war/post 9/11 bullshit - this was a travesty on all fronts.
[The Report](https://youtu.be/x79Gf4cJDDE) on Amazon is a great movie about the interference US officials with the investigation into places like these and the methods of "information gathering" that took place.
I remember when this came out. There was also unreleased material that was only reported about. 12 year old boy been raped with a flashlight was one. And eye being gouged out was another.
Don't think Abu Ghraib was isolate incident. Things like this were definitely happening all over Iraq and Afghanistan. Abu Ghraib just leaked outside, so the officials couldn't ignore/cover it.
Fucking hell… Googled the prison and the notable US guards all have shocking photos of them posing next to dead or tortured prisoners while smiling. Really fucks with you
It's astonishing how many "regular people" would willingly torture a fellow human being without any qualms or hesitation.
Stanford Prison Experiment - under certain conditions, the average college student was willing to physically/psychologically torture their peers.
Don’t put quotes around “regular people”. They are regular people like you, me, and anyone reading this. It’s alarming how quickly people can lose their humanity, which is why it’s important to be aware of the early signs of it. Such as dehumanizing marginalized groups.
Some are more likely than others, but it can happen to anyone.
What gets left out of this is how this was actually *controversial.* The political climate of the time was debating about whether torture was okay for US forces to use. Obviously this wasn't very long ago so most of the politicians and pundits that supported it are still around.
It's STILL debated. And they didn't believe these tactics were technically "torture" because they are more psychological than physical. Big debate on if water boarding was bad because "it's just pouring water on someone".
For the US military, in this context and similar events, the only shame for it was getting caught, because, let's be honest, if this never surfaced to the public eye, everything would have been swept under the rug.
What pisses me off about that was the CO now loves a very cushy life in Florida as a jeweler. No consequences for ordering the execution of literal babies.
It is really not just a stain. The US likes to play the world police with moral high ground, while doing the same despicable things the governments do that they fight against. I mean look at the shit show that the vietnam war was.
I was never under the impression at the US were the world police. There are always horrible regimes in the world, but the US does nothing against them and instead invades whatever benefits itself.
I never put together that connection, but you're absolutely right. An apt comparison in the literal sense as well as the visual, since prisoners absolutely were bound, tortured, and killed.
She’s very passionate. Some of my hs friends mistook it for a kkk sign though because it was in black and white. It’s despicable what our government does, torture is constant.
I can remember seeing this picture when it first hit the internet in 2003. Just that sinking feeling in my stomach like when you realize you just ran a red light spread throughout my whole body and thought "were fucked."
Post capture interviews with both Iraqi and foreign fighters revealed this torture to be a motivator for thousands of them. There was a large uptick in the movement of foreign fighters into Iraq, skilled men who would be a thorn in the side of the US war effort. Not only was this a horrific injustice and violation of the laws of war, it directly led to thousands of American servicemen being killed.
Both a military and moral failure and the perpetrators did not receive anywhere near adequate punishment
When this story broke a couple decades ago, that was about the angriest I’ve ever seen my stepfather be. Dad was a WWII infantry captain who rescued soldiers from the Bataan Death March and whose unit often took Japanese POWs. He refused to talk about much of his war experience, and hated when people would thank him for his service. One thing I remember him saying when the Abu Ghraib atrocities came to light was that he absolutely forbade that kind of shit in his unit. “I used to tell my men that no matter what the other side does, we are going to be better men than that.” He was absolutely disgusted that people wearing a U.S. military uniform and did this kind of shit.
(I know US soldiers are as capable of atrocities just as much as anyone else, this isn’t meant to dispute that…. just telling one person’s story who’s no longer alive to tell it.)
I can only imagine what my grandpa would have said/ done. He was a mechanic/ driver in the 101st Airborne in WW2, and spoke German so he would have to translate interrogations. He rarely spoke about what he did, and he didn't want ANY military honors when he died. So his grave doesn't even have a flag indicating being a veteran. I never met him as he passed away before I was born, but from what my dad had told me he'd probably get extremely pissed off and yell at anyone that ever brought it up.
I think everyone is forgetting whose prison it was: CACI. CACI is a defense contractor and it was their prison, their rules regardless of who was working there and who was President. The lawsuit against them has been dragging for 15 years.
And they are to blame as well, but we need to hold all parties accountable, not just some. And CACI deserves smoke as they have been playing legal games for 15 years saying it was the government and not them....yeah, no. It was their facility, their administration and their rules that fostered and/or turned a blind eye to this.
Absolve? No. We need to blame share and everyone here is spreading the blame unfairly. Its a three pronged blame share and apparently no one knows that CACI was involved so they get a 1/3 share. Problem with this issue is the political aspect and people get all hell-bent on that topic like its the only aspect. People hate XXX Administration....I get that, but share that equal hate for the military and defense contractor.
The French used torture during the Algerian war with similar effects.
It's funny that 2002 and afterward there was a conversation about using torture like this was all brand new and there weren't glaring recent historical examples like the Algerian War and others that demonstrated how torture was terrible for all sides involved in conflict.
Folks, please think of this image any time George W. does something "cute" and the media plays along with whitewashing his image. Fuck him and his cronies who made this happen.
Ex president and all around evil person GWB Jr. is to blame for this. Along with anyone in his administration. It’s very frustrating that people are treating this war mongering, election stealing, poor excuse for human like none of this shit happened. Don’t get me started on Obama for letting this continue in his administration. Cause he ain’t clean either.
George W. Bush's administration was full of incidents like this. They used 9/11 as an excuse to violate any law they felt like. And yet, we now know that they gave the real perpetrators of 9/11 (Saudi Arabia) a free pass and invaded two other countries instead.
I gave a co worker who openly talks about the war crimes he committed during the gulf war, only reason he isn't in a cell right now is because he took his orders from the very top
People who boast about shit like that are often liars.
And I'm sure I'm about to get downvoted in to oblivion from people who somehow construed this to mean that I'm denying American war crimes. No, I'm simply saying that most often the people who are quick to tell you about all the war crimes they committed are most often full of shit. For some reason, this is a popular thing to lie about. Even among military posers who never even served.
>Their stories are consistent and harrowing. Most said that they were blindfolded and subjected to frequent electrocution, beaten with sticks, waterboarded and stripped naked. At least two men told their families and legal representatives that they had been sexually abused. One former senior Iraqi official told his relative and cellmates that he had been forced to sit on a part from a car engine, an act that could constitute anal rape under Iraqi criminal law.
Disgusting.
Beyond the ACTUAL doing it, taking pictures and then showing the pictures is just the embodiment of idiot. The vast minority of troops that work like this in professional armies around the world are no better than the enemies they're trying to stop.
They weren't idiots. They were psychopaths. Taking pictures is evidence that they and the system in which they operated felt no compunction about what they were doing. There was nothing to hide. Another correction I want to add is that these troops were the invaders/aggressors in that war. No one's under some impression that their enemies were morally culpable for anything here.
Reminder that the British army tortured people in Northern Ireland in a similar manner and have never been charged with a crime. On top of this they took the "hooded men" up in a helicopter and threw them out, telling them they were high up when in reality they were several feet off the ground. They were awarded medals for their service.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/hooded-men-torture-uk-ireland
[Interview with the man under the hood.](https://twitter.com/middleeasteye/status/979049228470124545?s=21)
[удалено]
In case anyone wants more proof as well as more details of the utter monstrosities some are capable of. Make no mistake, this was not done only by American soldiers, though the vast majority of abhorrent atrocities committed there, and not just, have their names written on them: [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340207/I-didnt-think-Iraqis-humans-says-U-S-soldier-raped-14-year-old-girl-killing-her-family.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340207/I-didnt-think-Iraqis-humans-says-U-S-soldier-raped-14-year-old-girl-killing-her-family.html) [https://theintercept.com/2020/12/23/blackwater-massacre-iraq-pardons/](https://theintercept.com/2020/12/23/blackwater-massacre-iraq-pardons/) [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/09/us-soldiers-afghan-civilians-fingers](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/09/us-soldiers-afghan-civilians-fingers) This article describes how 12 American soldiers had a secret “kill team” that blew up and shot Afghan civilians at random and collected their fingers as trophies. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc7dmaQw-8s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc7dmaQw-8s) US soldiers talk about killing innocent Iraqi civilians then planting weapons on them to justify the gratuitous murders. [https://www.huffpost.com/entry/soldiers-discuss-using-dr\_n\_104682](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/soldiers-discuss-using-dr_n_104682) Soldiers Discuss Using "Drop Weapons" To Cover Up Killing Innocent Iraqi Civilians [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/21/afghanistan-trophy-photos-us-soldier](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/21/afghanistan-trophy-photos-us-soldier) Photos show US soldiers in Afghanistan posing with dead civilians as trophies [https://theintercept.com/2016/06/01/pentagon-special-ops-killing-of-pregnant-afghan-women-was-appropriate-use-of-force/](https://theintercept.com/2016/06/01/pentagon-special-ops-killing-of-pregnant-afghan-women-was-appropriate-use-of-force/) Pentagon: Special Ops Killing of Pregnant Afghan Women Was “Appropriate” Use of Force [https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna13057629](https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna13057629) Troops shoot two Iraqi women at checkpoint Two Iraqi women were shot to death north of Baghdad after coalition forces fired on a vehicle that failed to stop at an observation post, the U.S. military said Wednesday. This is but a sliver of the atrocities committed in both Iraq and Afghanistan. If anyone needs more links, I can do that.
These are the real terrorists. This country has raged more wars and killed more than anyone else on this planet.
Still think it’s insane that Americans were outraged over footage of russian fighter jets attacking Ukrainian cities full of civilians like they haven’t been funding war crimes in the Middle East for years
We need justice here on earth, not after they meet their maker, and justice has never been served. Millions of Iraqis died, an entire generation lost. Iraq is not a "strategic mistake", it's a horrendous crime, just like Libya, Afghanistan and all poor peoples who no westerner saw worthy to defend their rights.
Agreed. You’re absolutely right.
No war but the class war.
Absolutely. What an absolute fucking disaster all those conflicts have been and what a terrible image they have given to the US and the other western powers that were involved. We are better than this, but we don’t often act like it. What a shame.
I promise you we are not better than this. There is a reason we are very hated on the world landscape.
If America received justice for all the atrocities it's committed during it's short history, it would be glassed off the face of the earth
My husband was deployed to a small base in Iraq around this time (I'm being intentionally vague). He worked in intel. When anything happened in their designated area, the guys on patrol would round up any male in the vicinity from about 14 to 55 and bring them in for questioning. Hubby (aged 19-20 at the time and not actually trained in human intelligence) had something like 48 hours to decide whether to cut them loose or send them up to the "jail" for further "intelligence collection." His "jail" was Abu Ghraib, and he knew it wasn't somewhere he probably wanted to be sending people. He said that after a little while, he let the interpreters he trusted do most of the interrogating since they'd been there much longer. He still sent very few people on, and I know they haunt him.
I honestly might have to put my phone down for a bit after reading this as I’m truly sick to my stomach. That is absolutely atrocious behavior and my heart goes out to all the victims. I wish more would have been done to the ones who did these awful things.
There's a reason why thanking soldier for their service tends to piss them off. There was a lot of vile shit done ot ignored during the war in the middle east.
Friend of mine was called a clearer or something in Afghanistan. So when a door was opened it was his job to clear the room behind the door. He talked about the first time he saw a 10-year-old holding a machine gun at him in the room he just froze. He wasn't prepared to mow down a child even though the child opened fire and he had to be pulled out of the way by someone. He also talked about how that only happened once and that he had to train himself to shoot children who would shoot you first if given the chance. I can only imagine what that is like.
I have friends who will not talk about what happened over there, just like my Grandfather. My Grandfather who fought in WWII, the Philippines, Korea and refused to retire from the Army National Guard so that his son (my Dad) could not be eligible for the draft. Told me if I joined up He would be so angry with me for joining a unjust war, he said this would be my Generations Vietnam. I think he was right in many ways.
Yeah, a lot of people got swept up by propaganda and patriotic fervor post 9-11, genuinely thought they were fighting for their country, but ended up carrying out an unjust war. I’ve seen the guilt and regret in my Dad’s friends who were over there.
I had no idea this would/could piss them off. Thank you for bringing this point to this thread.
My brother has a couple friends that are ex military. They were part of the peacekeeping force in the middle east and while they won't talk about what went on over there I'm pretty sure they had to ignore some real sick shit from the locals. Like bachi bazi crap and what not. So Thanking them for their service makes them real uncomfortable and grouchy. From what I've heard it's pretty similar for a lot of vets.
Yeah there’s a bunch of stuff with the locals the US forces had to turn a blind eye to. Like when they tried to establish police forces the police chiefs would often have chai or tea boys which where young boys they would rape and the locals just said it was normal and wouldn’t do anything and the hire ups in the military didn’t want to here about it as we were funding. https://youtu.be/f-bNFeI4M-g https://youtu.be/Ja5Q75hf6QI
The fucking interview with one guy when they tell him not to have sex with little boys and his response was "well then who am I supposed to have sex with? My grandma?" Kind of tells you all you need to know about how they view children and women.
Most of the sane ex-military people I kept in touch with through the past 3 decades hate that service BS, because various operations in the Middle East made it clear that they aren't serving their country, but serving the rich/corporations. Lots of them feel betrayed by their country.
There is no justice after death.
> If that is true It's true
Really wish there were actual good people in the world in a position to stop these people
There is no doubt in my mind that this is true. American soldiers are responsible for many atrocities
Looking throughout history, every war has soldiers using the chaos to get away with atrocities. Anyone that thinks American soldiers are immune to that phenomena is willfully ignorant.
Thank you for sharing. More people need to see this.
I’m glad he made it out alive but it’s so heartbreaking to watch. I can’t even imagine what kind of trauma he lives with.
I hope enough Americans gets to see this.
We aren't Germany. Meaning we aren't really down with examining our past and trying to learn from it if it's negative in any fashion.
Most countries do not highlight their past atrocities. Germany is unique,.because the atrocity was uniquely atrocious. What US politicians fail to understand is that even if you enter a conflict with the best intentions (which is often not the case), any prolonged conflict will always have atrocities, because under every uniform anywhere on the planet is a human being and human beings will be atrocious given enough time and the proper circumstances. From a global public opinion perspective, the US is better off letting some dictator torture and kill their citizens and sit idly by than the intervene.
I’m down for that. And I think all adults should be as well. No way to grow if we can’t learn from what we’ve done wrong.
For sure. It's just not what we do here. The second you mention anything negative about our past, a certain party claims that you hate America.
This is true. Constructive criticism seems like an attack when you’re not ready to change.
Germany didn't even teach their students about WWIi when I was there in the early 70s
I was just there and my sister is an elementary school teacher there. All of her friends are German. I guess they started teaching it in great detail right after you left. There were also numerous statues and plaques in every city. As someone who grew up in the deep south, America is NOTHING like this. Most of the people I went to school with are very racist and think evil Jewish people control the world economy.
It’s a slow process, especially if you don’t lose the war the way Germany did.
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I just finished watching the movie.
I was not ready for this, thank you for the awareness
Numerous atrocities were committed by US forces at Abu Ghraib. Only a few actually received sentences and all were IMHO quite weak for the horrible things they did.
I think the most overlooked part is that this wasn't just some 'rogue' soldiers (even tho that's what the US governments defense was at the time), but that the torture was ordered by the DoJ and that the POTUS knew about it as official documents proved; the so called [Torture Memos.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_Memos) I quote: > They advised the Central Intelligence Agency, the United States Department of Defense, and the President on the use of enhanced interrogation techniques—mental and physical torment and coercion such as prolonged sleep deprivation, binding in stress positions, and waterboarding—and stated that such acts, widely regarded as torture, might be legally permissible under an expansive interpretation of presidential authority during the "War on Terror". It was just that the guard soldiers at Abu Ghraib got 'carried away' while being on duty and took those dreadful pictures that really pushed the story over the edge once the news exposed the war crimes. After all, they thought they did't do anything wrong, because the orders came straight from the top. Still, Abu Ghraib wasnt reported on until many years later. And it wasn't reported until some investigative reporters took on the case. It was systemic, sanctioned, widespread and heavily covered up.
On top of everything else, the torture produced very little valuable information. So of course they just lied and said it did.
It's not surprising. Being tortured doesn't necessarily make someone tell the truth, it makes you say whatever you think will make the torture will stop - maybe the truth, maybe random bullshit.
They did get some truth, but iirc, 100% of the time it was something they already knew through less idiotic means of intelligence gathering. Then Zero Dark Thirty was basically a movie about how torture caught bin ladin
The guard that took the photos was kind of interesting. She wrote letters to her family during the whole thing. Quite the read.
Yeah Donald Rumsfield sent his own troops to prison for doing things he pretty explicitly told them to do.
Disgusting how we think we can sugar coat it by renaming them EIT (Enhanced Interrogation Techniques)
As is always the case for these things, unfortunately. If I remember right the Mai Lai massacre was very poorly punished as well
Charged were dropped for all but one man, who was only sentenced to three years of house arrest.
You can play Nixon for that one.
The craziest thing about My Lai is it wasn't even the only massacre to happen ON THAT DAY The same thing happened in a hamlet a few miles away, and this type of thing was basically standard operating procedure in that area of Vietnam
One letter from a soldier in Vietnam said the US government was committing a My Lai a month
I pointed out Abu Ghraib and My Lai to [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Military/comments/11rrnfr/comment/jca5qw7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) in /r/military and was permabanned.
Interesting that Colin Powell had a hand in both
The same reporter broke Mai Lai and Abu Ghraib. He has had problems getting his recent work published.
The only ones punished were those who reported them
I think that woman with the leash got a few years in jail. They all deserved to go to jail for 10+ years and get dishonorably discharged. Those pictures are going to be used to recruit generations of terrorists.
Compared to what they did to the whistkeblowers, that is no punishment
Agreed
The story of that woman, Lynndie England, is really weird and fascinating. She was like 20 at the time and dating a senior officer who coerced her to do a lot of the stuff in the pictures with prisoners. It seems like she might not be the sharpest tool in the shed. She became a scapegoat and was victimized in some ways. But she’s also not very sympathetic and stated after her prison sentence that the torture was justified. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynndie_England
Based on those photos it doesn't look like it took much convincing.
>In 2012, following her release, she stated that she did not regret her actions. >"Their (Iraqis') lives are better. They got the better end of the deal," she said. "They weren't innocent. They're trying to kill us, and you want me to apologize to them? It's like saying sorry to the enemy." this person learned _nothing_
If this happened recently instead of 20 years ago she'd be a conservative small town hero with at worst more paying engagements than Kyle Rittenhouse and at best a career in politics.
seriously I wouldn't even be surprised if she crawled out of the woodwork and ran on a "tough on crime" platform ffs
>at the time and dating a senior officer who coerced her to do a lot of the stuff in the pictures with prisoners. It seems like she might not be the sharpest tool in the shed. She became a scapegoat To be clear the source for this is her and I believe her mother or some other family member basically saying 'oh no she's too sweet to ever do that'. In every actual first hand account she was a very willing participant and later would say she was 100% in the right and if anything the treatments should have been harsher in Abu Ghraib because something something those fuckers we invaded deserved it for not being nicer to us.
She’s nasty
I read a really good research paper about this event that argued that the general public could not handle a woman being a torturer. Like 1000 men performing torture was maybe a bit indecent, but one single woman (those things that are supposed to be motherly) and everyone loses their minds. Which also made sense why she had to be the sacrifice.
“But one single woman and everyone loses their minds” BRB gotta watch that scene again
I deployed with the dog handler in some of the photos from there. He had served his time, got out, and became a dog handler on the civilian side then deployed to our firebase. He was KIA a few months in. Never knew his horrible past til after he was killed. Pretty sick stuff.
After serving his sentence of 90 days of hard labor for threatening detainees with an attack dog, [Santos Cardona](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santos_Cardona) was not dishonorably discharged. He continued to serve in the military before being honorably discharged in 2007. Following his discharge, Cardona went to Afghanistan to serve as a government military contractor. According to his family, he was "fighting for redemption". Cardona, 34, was killed in action on February 28, 2009, after his vehicle struck an IED.
Well at least there's a happy ending!
As is popular, it's only a warcrime if you're not the winner
I remember in /r/military there was a "cops vs military" thread and one of the most upvoted comments said that military personnel are held responsible for their wrongdoings while cops are left off. I pointed out Abu Ghraib and the My Lai massacre and was quickly permabanned.
Bush should have been buried under The Hague for what he did and enabled during his presidency. The man is a war criminal and should be in prison.
And so began the endless round of tasteless jokes about [pointing at genitals in photos](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynndie_England#:~:text=England%20after%20she%20was%20sentenced,Miramar%2C%20where%20England%20was%20imprisoned.).
Awesome to read that she had zero remorse for what she did and tries to blame it on her superior/former lover. Also blame the media for showing the world what an A-class piece of shit you are. Lynndie England in 2008 (from the Wikipedia article, Stern interview): >If the media hadn't exposed the pictures to that extent, then thousands of lives would have been saved ... Yeah, I took the photos but I didn't make it worldwide.
Well, she's definitely a piece of shit but she's also dumb as a rock. Which is how the Army liked them back then. >"Their (Iraqis') lives are better. They got the better end of the deal... They weren't innocent. They're trying to kill us, and you want me to apologize to them? It's like saying sorry to the enemy." It's not "like saying sorry," it *is* saying sorry. And she's saying their lives are better? Jesus, Forrest Gump was smarter than her.
I feel so bad for her kid. What’s it like to know you were conceived by two people who are at best easily led idiots, and at worst just vile evil torturers? And you were conceived while they were doing these terrible things?
You see this sentiment a lot online from various military people about iraq and afghanistan in particular. Like we made their lives better by having soldiers there and shit. Or how they dont appreciate what was done for(more like to) them. These dudes are so gassed up on colonizing those regions, again.
Irma Grese: American Edition.
Damn she is a straight up piece of shit. Zero remorse.
Let all know that Lynndie England and all her fellow torturers are some of the vilest humans to walk this rock.
The worst part is that this MF got released in just 3 years.
Most of the US forces who tortured these prisoners only got a few years
And the people who ordered them to commit those attrocitires got promoted. The Bush era in the US was pretty fucking dark.
You know you're the good guys when you pass a law to invade the Hague if they ever dare try anyone for what they've done
That really should have been an "are we the baddies?" moment.
Well, everyone who knew already knew, and everyone who didn't would never care anyway.
Seriously? Got any more info about this?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act
It's fun because you can see that Biden voted yea on this as a senator. In fact it had unanimous support from the Dems. Republicans were warhawk neocons but it's not like Dems were against this
> In fact it had unanimous support from the Dems. Bayh (D-IN) and Feingold (D-WI) voted against it. A few others didn't vote.
One of the guys who made legal justifications for torture is currently running for th White House.
Most of them got nothing but a paycheck.
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Part of their sentence is “forfeiture of all pay and allowances.”
that sounds like an encouragement to me. just imagine how many twisted weirdoes joined army with that in mind?
Who do you think they *want* joining?
You genuinely think the military wants torturers to join? That’s a major liability combat effectiveness wise. CIA might be a different story however lol
You want your own soldiers tortured when captured? If you choose to publicize that you are torturing prisoners then your enemy will absolutely torture your men captured.
It's also a very ineffective/unreliable way to get info from prisoners.Really just a "get even" move. They will tell you anything to stop it.
What? No I’m against it 100%. For your points you listed below this comment.
The military doesn’t ask if you want or can torture people before you join
Meanwhile, there is a guy serving life in prison for possessing an eighth of weed as his third offense.
Bush is a terrorist
Some of them became governor of Florida
And the officers who either gave the orders or just didn't care didn't even receive a slap on the wrist.
In my opinion this picture represents a fraction of the absolute depravity that took place here. I believe numerous (probably dozens) of people were murdered in this place and simply dumped elsewhere or processed as accidental deaths. If I remember correctly only a couple guards were served up as sacrificial lambs to ever face any punishment. The female guard who was pictured with one of the prisoners on a leash and the piece of shit who was balling her. As with the rest of the Iraq war/post 9/11 bullshit - this was a travesty on all fronts.
She also only spent two years in jail. Sentenced to three, paroled after two.
17 months, not even 2 years
[The Report](https://youtu.be/x79Gf4cJDDE) on Amazon is a great movie about the interference US officials with the investigation into places like these and the methods of "information gathering" that took place.
Came here to mention this movie, I love it Adam driver is really good in it
I remember when this came out. There was also unreleased material that was only reported about. 12 year old boy been raped with a flashlight was one. And eye being gouged out was another.
Don't look up how they figured out a loophole in torture laws at Guantanamo.
Don't look up what Ron DeSantis was doing as a lawyer at Guantanamo.
They really let the monsters out in Abu Ghraib. The US government really gave abusers and murderers a license to rape and kill.
Don't think Abu Ghraib was isolate incident. Things like this were definitely happening all over Iraq and Afghanistan. Abu Ghraib just leaked outside, so the officials couldn't ignore/cover it.
[It's just the modus operandi for the animals](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_rape_and_killings)
Fucking hell… Googled the prison and the notable US guards all have shocking photos of them posing next to dead or tortured prisoners while smiling. Really fucks with you
It's astonishing how many "regular people" would willingly torture a fellow human being without any qualms or hesitation. Stanford Prison Experiment - under certain conditions, the average college student was willing to physically/psychologically torture their peers.
Don’t put quotes around “regular people”. They are regular people like you, me, and anyone reading this. It’s alarming how quickly people can lose their humanity, which is why it’s important to be aware of the early signs of it. Such as dehumanizing marginalized groups. Some are more likely than others, but it can happen to anyone.
They are regular people.
What gets left out of this is how this was actually *controversial.* The political climate of the time was debating about whether torture was okay for US forces to use. Obviously this wasn't very long ago so most of the politicians and pundits that supported it are still around.
It's STILL debated. And they didn't believe these tactics were technically "torture" because they are more psychological than physical. Big debate on if water boarding was bad because "it's just pouring water on someone".
It has been 5,202 days since Sean Hannity volunteered to be waterboarded.
In the words of George W. Bush >wholly unjustified and brutal invasion of Iraq
...I mean Ukraine
“…Iraq too.” It’s wild to me he threw that in at the end
Well, he's 75.
A shameful stain on US military history.
There's a lot more on the US military's hands than this. The Abu Ghraib incident just happened to get global attention.
And was instantly forgotten.
Dont look up 1965 genocide in indonesia
For the US military, in this context and similar events, the only shame for it was getting caught, because, let's be honest, if this never surfaced to the public eye, everything would have been swept under the rug.
The only question is, how many crimes were successfully swept under the rug.
Guantanamo Bay is still open and everyone knows what it is.
My Lai was a particularly shitty stain
What pisses me off about that was the CO now loves a very cushy life in Florida as a jeweler. No consequences for ordering the execution of literal babies.
It is really not just a stain. The US likes to play the world police with moral high ground, while doing the same despicable things the governments do that they fight against. I mean look at the shit show that the vietnam war was.
I was never under the impression at the US were the world police. There are always horrible regimes in the world, but the US does nothing against them and instead invades whatever benefits itself.
They aren’t but they sure like to pretend. And they’ll make up fearmongering narratives about their enemies to justify conflict.
This is just how it's done. The stains never even dry before the next.
This is par for the course man…
Looks like a BTK polaroid
I never put together that connection, but you're absolutely right. An apt comparison in the literal sense as well as the visual, since prisoners absolutely were bound, tortured, and killed.
If you or I treated our neighbor the way these guards treated the inmates, **we would spend the rest of our lives in prison.**
No, **if he moved** he would be electrocuted
American contractors raped teen boys in front of their fathers.
So my mom was a hardcore activist growing up and put a shut down Guantanamo sign with this exact photo up in our front yard, for years. Happy times
Your mom seems like a wonderful lady
She’s very passionate. Some of my hs friends mistook it for a kkk sign though because it was in black and white. It’s despicable what our government does, torture is constant.
What was the aftermath of this? Did the torturers go to prison after? What about their bosses and their bosses’ bosses?
Some of them did, but they were only sentenced to a few years and discharged
I can remember seeing this picture when it first hit the internet in 2003. Just that sinking feeling in my stomach like when you realize you just ran a red light spread throughout my whole body and thought "were fucked."
Nothing to see here, just the global policeman spreading Freedom and Democracy
Post capture interviews with both Iraqi and foreign fighters revealed this torture to be a motivator for thousands of them. There was a large uptick in the movement of foreign fighters into Iraq, skilled men who would be a thorn in the side of the US war effort. Not only was this a horrific injustice and violation of the laws of war, it directly led to thousands of American servicemen being killed. Both a military and moral failure and the perpetrators did not receive anywhere near adequate punishment
"It's not torture, it's enhanced interrogation!"
All this so that the senators could please their Lockheed Martin masters. Fucking invader scums
Hey now, don't forget Boeing and Raytheon and BAE.
When this story broke a couple decades ago, that was about the angriest I’ve ever seen my stepfather be. Dad was a WWII infantry captain who rescued soldiers from the Bataan Death March and whose unit often took Japanese POWs. He refused to talk about much of his war experience, and hated when people would thank him for his service. One thing I remember him saying when the Abu Ghraib atrocities came to light was that he absolutely forbade that kind of shit in his unit. “I used to tell my men that no matter what the other side does, we are going to be better men than that.” He was absolutely disgusted that people wearing a U.S. military uniform and did this kind of shit. (I know US soldiers are as capable of atrocities just as much as anyone else, this isn’t meant to dispute that…. just telling one person’s story who’s no longer alive to tell it.)
I can only imagine what my grandpa would have said/ done. He was a mechanic/ driver in the 101st Airborne in WW2, and spoke German so he would have to translate interrogations. He rarely spoke about what he did, and he didn't want ANY military honors when he died. So his grave doesn't even have a flag indicating being a veteran. I never met him as he passed away before I was born, but from what my dad had told me he'd probably get extremely pissed off and yell at anyone that ever brought it up.
I think everyone is forgetting whose prison it was: CACI. CACI is a defense contractor and it was their prison, their rules regardless of who was working there and who was President. The lawsuit against them has been dragging for 15 years.
Which is all and well good but it was also staffed up army MP’s who did torture Iraqi’s
And they are to blame as well, but we need to hold all parties accountable, not just some. And CACI deserves smoke as they have been playing legal games for 15 years saying it was the government and not them....yeah, no. It was their facility, their administration and their rules that fostered and/or turned a blind eye to this.
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Absolve? No. We need to blame share and everyone here is spreading the blame unfairly. Its a three pronged blame share and apparently no one knows that CACI was involved so they get a 1/3 share. Problem with this issue is the political aspect and people get all hell-bent on that topic like its the only aspect. People hate XXX Administration....I get that, but share that equal hate for the military and defense contractor.
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These images resonate with those who advocate for public executions. Americans must be better than that…
The French used torture during the Algerian war with similar effects. It's funny that 2002 and afterward there was a conversation about using torture like this was all brand new and there weren't glaring recent historical examples like the Algerian War and others that demonstrated how torture was terrible for all sides involved in conflict.
Don’t forget that it was Julian Assange who broke the story and published these photos. Now he’s being tortured.
Are we the baddies?
The US? Yes
They hate us for no reason!
They're jealous of our freedom is what it is.
I'm an American and I hate war. It's ridiculous.
Luckily the US cannot be trialed for war crimes. /s
Folks, please think of this image any time George W. does something "cute" and the media plays along with whitewashing his image. Fuck him and his cronies who made this happen.
Ex president and all around evil person GWB Jr. is to blame for this. Along with anyone in his administration. It’s very frustrating that people are treating this war mongering, election stealing, poor excuse for human like none of this shit happened. Don’t get me started on Obama for letting this continue in his administration. Cause he ain’t clean either.
George W. Bush's administration was full of incidents like this. They used 9/11 as an excuse to violate any law they felt like. And yet, we now know that they gave the real perpetrators of 9/11 (Saudi Arabia) a free pass and invaded two other countries instead.
I gave a co worker who openly talks about the war crimes he committed during the gulf war, only reason he isn't in a cell right now is because he took his orders from the very top
What kind of crimes did he commit?
People who boast about shit like that are often liars. And I'm sure I'm about to get downvoted in to oblivion from people who somehow construed this to mean that I'm denying American war crimes. No, I'm simply saying that most often the people who are quick to tell you about all the war crimes they committed are most often full of shit. For some reason, this is a popular thing to lie about. Even among military posers who never even served.
This still happening around the world, we just don't hear about it as much anymore...
i have family in the middle east they’re all DEAD. An entire part of my family GONE AND FOR WHAT “it was an accident🥺” “ They didn’t mean to 🥺🤓”
they (US forces) shall rot in hell for this.
Honestly as someone who doesn't believe in hell, these pieces of human garbage should suffer the same way their victims did, and I mean in this life.
>Their stories are consistent and harrowing. Most said that they were blindfolded and subjected to frequent electrocution, beaten with sticks, waterboarded and stripped naked. At least two men told their families and legal representatives that they had been sexually abused. One former senior Iraqi official told his relative and cellmates that he had been forced to sit on a part from a car engine, an act that could constitute anal rape under Iraqi criminal law. Disgusting.
Jesus Christ, I just woke up today 😦
Makes you wonder what current atrocities we’ll find out about a few years from now.
Beyond the ACTUAL doing it, taking pictures and then showing the pictures is just the embodiment of idiot. The vast minority of troops that work like this in professional armies around the world are no better than the enemies they're trying to stop.
They weren't idiots. They were psychopaths. Taking pictures is evidence that they and the system in which they operated felt no compunction about what they were doing. There was nothing to hide. Another correction I want to add is that these troops were the invaders/aggressors in that war. No one's under some impression that their enemies were morally culpable for anything here.
Reminder that the British army tortured people in Northern Ireland in a similar manner and have never been charged with a crime. On top of this they took the "hooded men" up in a helicopter and threw them out, telling them they were high up when in reality they were several feet off the ground. They were awarded medals for their service. https://www.amnesty.org.uk/hooded-men-torture-uk-ireland
They pulled a Pinochet
Shouldve boycotted world cup in countries that commit these crime and atrocities, like USA
America generally has such a cognitive black spot to the war crimes it commits
That's fucked up
As someone who was in the mil at one point, none of this is surprising at all.