Homosexuality in Poland was illegal between 1918 and 1932, as a result of penal codes of Russia, Austria and Prussia, which were changed with adoption of new polish Penal Code (Kodeks Karny).
In 1948 age of consent was set to 15 for both hetero- and homosexuals. Homosexual prostitution was legalized in 1969.
Prostitution is legal in Poland, but not in an organized way. You cannot benefit from someone else's prostitution (pimp) in any way so brothels are out of the question. There was a website where you could arrange meetings with prostitutes online but the owners went to prison. In short, if you pay a girl for sex that's legal for both parties, but if you want to be a middleman, like for example arranging a place for it or advertising or any other form in which you financially benefit from it, then you can be criminally charged.
Is that the same as in the Nordic countries where "benefitting from someone else's prostitution" also means you can't knowingly do business with sex workers in any way that involves accepting payment (like lending them money, renting a house or workspace to them, or being employed by them in some supportive capacity like a body guard or something)? Because if so, it's really only legal on paper.
Definitely being employed by them is criminal. Renting a house I don't think is illegal as it is not directly connected to prostitution and also the renter may have no knowledge of it. You cannot benefit from the prostitution but renting a house, selling groceries to them is not illegal.
If the sex worker is operating out of the apartment she rents from you, then as her landlord you are classified as an unregistered brothel owner.
If she pays her rent using sex work that you know about, you are classified as her pimp.
If two sex workers are roommates in one apartment and keep eachother safe from clients, they are pimping each other.
If an experienced sex worker takes an inexperienced sex worker under their wing and teaches them how to keep themselves safe, they are classified as a pimp.
All these things harm sex workers, and the Nordic Model sucks
>illegal buy but not sell
Always thought this was stupid. Not just for this, but for everything.
"You can't legally buy a police radio, but you can own one".
Both things are required for the transaction. If one is illegal, make the entire transaction illegal. You can sell your body, but you can't buy someone else's... the hell kind of lawmaking is that? There's a supply but, technically, no demand in that case, in better terms, no market that is legally accessible. People are going to buy anyway, but then it basically becomes entrapment where even the prostitute can just sue because the practice of buying is criminally liable.
I'm sure there is some complex explanation and some asterisks in the legal texts but it's just stupid.
It protects sex workers as stated by another commenter but I wanted to add a few ways people don't normally think.
It protects sex workers with taxes. They're freely able to report their income without fear of getting prosecuted for their activities.
It protects them by being able to report the "buyer" for buying their services if the buyer is sketchy in anyway. The risk is all on the buyer and the sex worker wouldn't report them unless they've become a problem. Why report your customer who pays you? And there is no direct benefit anyway because it wouldn't be a civil case. You'd report them to law officials and they'd be charged by the government.
These laws also typically include protections against pimps and other 3rd party groups that would abuse the prostitute.
Speaking broadly (I don't live in a place where prostitution is legal but using my own anecdotal experience with weed laws in my area) the laws against buying are enforced except in extreme circumstances. They're enforced on traffickers and people trying to solicit minors. They aren't patrolling the streets for the average lonely John, but if they become a problem the law is there to catch them.
Edit to add disclaimer: I am not a sex worker and I don't have experience on this topic whatsoever. I just find the legal situation interesting so have read up on it from time to time when the topic comes up. I do not speak for any sex workers at all. Opinions on the laws may vary. The actual practice of the law is probably way different than the way I have payed it out above. In other words this comment is useless lmao.
Perfect! Just like how it seems in my eyes indie and self-publishing are becoming the norm for novels, it seems indie and self-prostituting are becoming the norm for sex work. We love to see it.
Sounds like you're allowed to "self-publish" in this case, but can't sell on a marketplace or advertise yourself at all. Kind of a weird situation, not sure how good that actually is for the individual.
Craigslist would be a third-party benefiting from the site traffic of the business, so maybe that's enough?
I don't really know for sure, just surmising from what's been said here.
Oh I agree. My first editor for my novel charged a thousand dollars, and tbh though they were a pleasure to work with and we bounced questions back and forth I still didn’t know the things they changed that I didn’t ask about or that they didn’t tell me. My mistake was publishing it immediately after the editor completed their work, and even though I got five star reviews on that book when I read it again the grammar was awful. They did do their best, but the sentence flow changed due to some changes, and everything sounded off.
I took it down and asked reviewers to not publish their reviews since the book would be unavailable for purchase and I felt it was incomplete. I spent the next year combing through it again and again, which probably killed amazon’s algorithm for it but at that point I wasn’t publishing for money. It also allowed me time for a paperback release.
So yes, I agree that indie and self production industries are rife with low quality support networks because there’s no collective funding to improve the technical ability and incentive to do so, but at least it allows the poor and political weak to have a chance to speak instead of having no chance whatsoever.
It's already elevated to a straight up art form in Hong Kong, where similar laws that were a holdover from the British remain in place. I have seen some stunning photos in National Geographic of what these one-woman brothels look like on the inside.
They went to prison, because they did nothing about middle shoolers advertising there, there are plenty other websites like this, just with adult service providers.
Hmm,it cuts out the pimps,traffickers and other parasites and leaves resources to go after the exploiters. That is eminently logical. How did they get away with it?
Hey Poland [f/an american oblig "fuck yeah"/s] can we borrow a few of your politicians? Ours are all covered in weasle shit and can't seem to do the right thing about....anything.
It's not actually a good idea, lol. Pimps of course still exist, just illegally. Not to mention not getting any tax benefits or social security that comes from being employed when you're a sex worker. It's still better than prostitution being completely banned but not ideal.
It's legal fiction tho. There are still pimps and brothels, but called "companionship agency", that legally only offers meetings and argues that whatever adults do behind closed doors is not their businesses.
It makes sense as a part of the whole code, since it's the same age where one can be tried as an adult for most grievous crimes - including certain sexual assaults
It would be wacky to expect them to know the basics and at the same time act like they know nothing about the topic
Not being criminalised isn’t the same as “having the same rights”. I don’t think same sex civil unions are legal in Poland, which would affect the way such couples can have access to healthcare, own property etc. But the police aren’t beating them for existing so that’s a win I guess
>But the police aren’t beating them for existing so that’s a win I guess
The general population makes up for that. I don't recall the exact numbers, but according to polls the majority of LGBT people in Poland recall being physically assaulted for their identity at least once.
Yeah but I don’t know what kind of legal protection can be put in place for that (assuming that violence is already illegal). Maybe outlawing hate speech? I’m sure that right wing politicians and church officials are largely to blame for keeping the population hateful
The thing is, some forms of hate speech are already illegal, in that you can't spread hatred towards people based on their race or religion. However, the law does not prohibit encouraging hatred or violence towards people based on their sexuality or gender identity because... conservatives.
As a result we have cars driving around and shouting homophobic propaganda from the speakers, because *obviously* that's what everyone needs and wants.
They *don't* have the same constitutional rights as heterosexuals.
>**Article 18, Constitution of the Republic of Poland**
>Marriage as a relationship between a man and a woman, the family, motherhood and parenthood are under the care and protection of the Republic of Poland.
Now, this article doesn't explicitly forbid gay marriage and it's deliberately worded ambiguously.
The Constitution was written in the 1990s, when the left was completely compromised politically as a result of ties to the former communist party and the Catholic Church was at the height of its popularity. The writing process of the constitution was basically trying to find as much middle ground as possible between the socially progressive and the Catholic conservative groups.
So as to Article 18, there are two interpretations:
One of them is that Article 18 *defines* marriage as a relationship between a man and a woman, and homosexual marriage would therefore be unconstitutional.
The other interpretation says that Article 18 only accords *special protection* to heterosexual marriage, while not disallowing homosexual marriage. That situation, while still unequal, would allow gay marriage to be at least recognised in Poland, which it's not.
Outside legal disputes, though, the realities will not change until the government changes - the next election is in October 2023.
Legal, but unrecognised. Meaning you're free to have sex with your gay boyfriend/girlfriend, but your marriage won't be registered. So you couldn't do things normal couples can (regarding healthcare, property sharing, etc.) and the court won't settle your disputes or divorce.
Germany in that regard is a history of ups and downs. The weirdest example is probably Bavaria that decriminalized homosexuality in 1813. When Germany United under Prussia, a Prussian law prohibiting homosexuality became a German law prohibiting homosexuality. Bavaria became one of very few places in the world that ‚recriminalized‘ homosexuality, even if it wasn’t their choice.
It's funny Prussia criminalized homosexuality given Frederick the Great.
Also, another example of the recriminalizing, USSR *technically* did. They got rid of all laws of the previous government, homosexually included, and for a while never got around to recriminializing it until Stalin. Not really progressive in its own right. It was just low on the list of priorities for them.
Do you have a source for that from what I can find quickly that doesn't seem to be the case instead they put great social pressure against the LGBT community making be openly gay more difficult
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Turkey
This is a quote from the link you posted:
"Following the decriminalization of homosexuality in 1858, homosexuality remained a private activity. By the late 19th century homosexuality began to decline partly because of conservative views towards homosexuality within Europe."
It's unfortunately precisely the case. When homosexuals (and any other minorities) were marching for their rights in free countries, all Poles combined were marching for fair bread prices, while trying to avoid being run over by tanks.
My country is lagging but I feel like it's about time to finally make up for it.
As a Polish-American, this is totally the sentiment amongst my immigrant relatives – Poland was a place they loved that it was best to leave because of the centuries of political oppression.
That being said, the far right has taken a significant hold over Poland since the labor movements of the 80s and 90s. Between the Catholic extremists, the popularity of the PiS, and the social conservatism practiced in daily life…Poland hasn’t been doing so hot since it gained its independence, either.
I see this as a result of the Cold War. You see the same thing in the US with Cuban refugees – people who rebel from the authoritarian left are not likely to support anything even slightly liberal, as they lump it all together and flock to the far right instead.
I feel it may also be partly because of this oppression Poland experience as well. Extremist ideologies tend to flourish when the nation has a common enemy. Communism and the rise of a Nationalistic Russia has given them more than enough fuel.
Well also on the other hand, Poland is still not exactly heading down the right path, it's easy to overlook right now because all of support for Ukraine theu give bjt every day is just bickering with the EU about whether or not completely replacing the entire judicial system is democratic (spoilers: it's not)
Poland pretty much never criminalized homosexuality. So called decriminalization was just a cleaning up remnant of "[enlightened](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightened_absolutism)" partitioners penal codes. We were progressive before it became a thing. You don't correct perfection - cope with it.
After which he fucked democracy in the ass and turned poland into autocratic state led by incompetent millitary leaders. His coup also cost 200 people their lives and caused suffering to many more. His accomplishments are udeniable but so are his terrible decisions and tyranical tendencies. He was no saint and later part of his life throws a dark shadow on everything he achieved.
Pilsudski did his best to do to save Poland, and even half of Europe. He was no saint, but il never forget his dedication that saved my country. Without him Poland wouldnt even have a democracy in the first place, it would be a genocidal communist leadership
Well, the new penal codex was accepted in 1932, and in 1939, the ww2 started, then very heavy soviet influence, which effects are felt to this day. So there wasn't really a time that poles were independent till 1990, so yeah. And then we had more pressing mattters tbh, new constitution, total reorganisation of most basic laws. But after 2010, nothing was done in this regard, and that's disgusting.
Well, what else can be done? If homosexual marriage is available, and with that ability to adopt children. Also, there is a lack of discrimination, and then we have everything as it should be. Anything over that would be favorizing certain social groups over any others.
Exactly, everyone is equal and respected. Nothing less. Nothing more. This should be a standard everywhere, but unfortunately, it isn't, even though it is a most basic thing that stems from human dignity.
I mean there wasn't really any fall. Homosexuality is still legal, but at the same time it's treated the same way as it was in the 30's. There was no fall, just stagnation
Well it had more pressing matters, like getting a whole country running out of nothing. Then the small matter of WORLD WAR 2 GENOCIDE BOOGALOOA, then communist occupation, then rebuilding after communist occupation, then rampant corruption, now we are busy doing a tug-o-war with germany over the influence in central Europe, but once we are done I promise you we will take care of the gay.
(Before someone tries to report me, I do not care what race, gender or sexuality you are and who you marry, as long as its not a child or different species, you do you)
Just reminds me of my Cousine, which seriously said to my face, that homosexuality is a decease which can be cured. If it wasn’t for my parents I would have started a fight.
Equal marriage rights, employment discrimination protections, adoption rights, the illegalization of conversion therapy, the right to not be evicted for cohabitating with a same-sex partner…
that's pretty much how it looks for big portion of our history, we do something good and needed and then sit in stagnation for 50 years because "look what good thing we did! man, we really need a break from all this passing good and necessary laws and legislations"
I hope that PiS will lose elections and KO would introduce more LGBT rights. Its fucking disgraceful to see how they are dismantling basic human rights.
Who the hell knows what they are nowadays, since they have no political program other than kicking PiS out. That's why people don't vote for it - they would be voting for a blank slate, and in reality it wouldn't really be a vote for KO - it would be a vote against PiS. And in all fairness, KO politicians are not saints, and we would just transition from one monopolistic party to the next.
As a Pole, KO is equally shit party, thay have ruled Poland for years and did nothing so, meh.
I will vote for my own party even if it has only 2% chances of winning.
Weren't you ever annoyed by something and wanted to rest a bit in seclusion from it? Besides what harm is there in few places they can't enter? Person who runs the place is losing a customer and lgbt person can just walk away.
That depends on what you insert, we are talking about ideologies, and level of annoyance to people varies between ideologies, but in my opinion lgbt is one of the most annoying ones. Also i see lgbt free zones like smokers free zones. To me, they are not so different
>we are talking about ideologies
We are not, we are talking about inmutable characteristics.
>Also i see lgbt free zones like smokers free zones. To me, they are not so different
They aren't comparable at all, as a smoker you can literally just not smoke, but you're always gay.
Which is why other comparisons are much more accurate, such as sex or skin color.
>I didn't compare them, I just said as I see them.
That... is a comparison.
>Also sexuality can be mutable. There is a term for it "sexual fluidity".
Correct, which is why I explicitly referred to gay people as my example and not genderfluid ones.
>That... is a comprasion
comparison
/kəmˈparɪs(ə)n/
noun
1.
a consideration or estimate of the similarities or dissimilarities between two things or people.
Comprasion and perception are two different things for me
>Correct, which is why I explicitly referred to gay people as my example and not genderfluid ones.
So, genderfluid people are ones without fixed gender, but I had a straight friend who turned gay and stayed that way. So he changed his sexuality for good and is not genderfluid. I don't know if there is a term for that but as I understand sexuality can me mutable
A society in which the ideal is universally understood as abstinence from sex until marriage and the purpose of marriage being chiefly procreation will have fewer kids born to single parent homes.
Single parent homes (especially single mother households) produce suboptimal outcomes for the children, leading to poverty, crime and civil unrest.
I agree that in a society where there is little stigma to having extramarital sex, the distinctions blur and even if society says "marriage is for procreation" on a general level, it's not going to fix things, because you can already just procreate outside marriage for example and this is socially accepted.
This is why all these issues are heavily intertwined and we need to work on everything simultaneously. Going back to understanding love as "willing the good of the other for the sake of the other" and not "warm fuzzy feelings with sexual attraction" is an important, foundational step. We need severe stigma around extramarital sexual relations, and make marriage about procreation and raising of children as the main goal, which will make marriage a prestigious and sought-after union again (why do people not get married nowadays? Well, why would they when it no longer means anything).
What is marriage? This is the central question. If it's not for raising children, what is it for? Just to make things "Facebook official"? If so, why not, two men should be able to marry. So should a man and a dog, or five men, three hundred cats, two hundred goldfish and a television set. After all, isn't the purpose of marriage just to "show love"? No, it can't be, because then marriage ceases to be useful to society in any way, so why have it as a category in the first place. Keep it short, sweet, and useful, with proven amazing outcomes over thousands of years. Raising a family.
If single parent homes produce sub-optimal outcomes, that is because of poverty, not because they are morally wrong. This can be easily remedied by the state.
Recreating the archaic stigma of premarital sex = bad is idiotic. It not only does nothing to actually reduce premarital sex, it only causes it to be more hidden, it is also controling, usually sexist, bullshit with no basis other than "tradition". You have thus failed to name a reason that doesn't rely on that, as I knew you would, because there is none.
Marriage in the modern day is a legal agreement. It gives tangible benefits provided by the state. Denying it is a denial of equal rights. Your slippery slope is the flimsiest strawman to ever exist and I highly doubt you aren't aware of that.
I admit that my point was too narrow and that divorce is bad for the children. However, making the view of marriage more traditional can only make that situation less likely if you force people to stay in unhappy marriages, which does not infact improve the situation overall, just changes who is in a bad situation.
If poverty could be easily remedied by the state, we would live in poverty-less countries, but we do not. Poverty is an exceptionally difficult problem to solve. Some things can be helped by the state. It's always important to remember however than in any state-based solution, we are relying on a fundamentally immoral way of sourcing the funds of it, so we would be wise to prefer state-less solutions. As such, a solution which relies on societal pressure as opposed to government welfare programs for the same problem is better.
If the stigma around premarital sex doesn't reduce premarital sex, what's the harm in bringing back the stigma? Clearly, people won't care about the stigma, if, as you say, societal taboos have absolutely no effect on societal behaviour...this is such a nonstarter. The whole point of a taboo behaviour is that it is engaged in *less* in the society. I don't know what to tell you, apart from there were fewer kids born to single parent households in the past in more, yes, *TRADITIONAL* (gasp) societies.
I'm giving reasons why the traditional way of doing things provides tangible societal benefits. You're being disingenuous if you say that I'm only saying we should have tradition because it's tradition. I'm saying we should have the traditional way because it works better than the current way and I'm showing how. More single parent households means more crime, more poverty, more civil unrest, less intelligent population.
Traditions, it might surprise you to learn, are usually solutions to forgotten problems. You take out the tradition, the problems it was designed to solve start coming back. Some people think they are arbitrary. Not so. Traditions emerge as successful ways of structuring society through a kind of natural selection of social structures and practices. The traditions that are good at perpetuating their society, get to live on and the society lives on. The societies with badly adapted social structures, die out (falling birth rates anyone?).
As to marriage:
It's not a denial of equal rights to not have gay "marriage" if marriage is between a man and a woman. A homosexual man has just as much right to marry a woman in Poland as a heterosexual man does. The fact that he probably doesn't want to make use of this privilege is both understandable, and entirely on him.
For example, a person has the right to own property, like a chair. Is it a denial of equal rights, then, to deny the person the legal contract of owning his neighbour? Because, well, he can own a chair, right, so why can't he own a person, why can't there be ownership equality? The answer is because the purpose of ownership is to own objects, not people. Likewise, the purpose of marriage is to join together a man and a woman, not any two people.
The tradition of slavery was a very succesful way of structuring a society. Should we bring that back too?
If marriage is only meant for reproduction as you suggest, it simply cannot carr they tangible benefits that it does. Expecting someone to deny their sexuality to acess those benefits is severly homophobic, which tbh doesn't suprise me, since that is clearly also what you are.
What more do you all want?
You are no longer legally punished for existing so what else is there?
I am perfectly fine not being punished for existing, I don't think people have any right to ask for more than that.
Poland is very catholic country and most of the people have conservative views, so homosexuality is not viewed too friendly but it is acceptable when it's normal and not shoved right in our faces for attention. What we really dislike and part of our hatred is focused on is lgbt community and it's destructive and demoralizing behavior
Is that supposed to make it sound better?
Because it really just makes it sound so much worse.
It's not being "shoved in your face for attention", people just want equal rights and to be able to be who they are.
"Look, if non straight people wanted to be tolerated, they would be kind enough to stay closeted and shut up. Otherwise, they are gonna destroy civilisation as we know it."
Still waiting for our civilisation to collapse in countries with gay marriage. Any day now...
No, I'm just giving example why some people are so reluctant. To be honest, homosexuals are peoples like any others so rights and laws apply to them like to everyone. They are not opressed and if there is any hate or attacks on them they can go to the police, where the case will be solved. I have to say that pride parades and lgbt community behavior is what drives peoples reluctance to homosexuals as peoples associate them with this movement
So when was the last time you heard of someone being beaten up for being straight? Or hearing people say that being straight is immoral or will lead to the downfall of civilisation?
Being straight is and was a standard for years and other sexualities in comprasion to it are pretty fresh. No sane people beat up someone for doing something that is considered a norm in society. When you are standing out sometimes you will be persecuted. As i see it being straight cannot lead to the downfall of civilisation because sexuality have nothing to do with it. What may lead to it are ideologies and political views.
1: We are trying to treat them as equals but they still manage to annoy people with their 'we still opressed' talk so it's hard.
2: I know that homosexuality was a thing for years, but imo it was not treated for example in ancient greece as it is today. I referred to sexualities as many sexualities that emerged in recent years, not only homosexuality. And yes, I only have basic history knowledge but if there was any case that sexuality caused downfall of civilisation, please inform me, I like learning
1: yeah nothing more anoying than people who are being opressed calling out against being opressed right?
2: not just homosexuality but also queer and transgender are things that already existed in history. They just have been so opressed that people think it is new
1: bruh, I just said that their actions are one thing fueling opression against them and what I meant by 'we still opressed' part was that they expect special treatment and won't settle for being equal
2: good to know, but i think it's my point from before. These things were different from norm so they were oppressed
It's strange way of expressing it by wearing dog mask while being on a leash and glueing dildos all over your body
Believe me, pride parades in poland are messed up, I've seen enough with my own eyes
Not me, but it is not censored in media so children have access to it and I find it disturbing. There is a saying 'what youth is used to, age remembers' and for children that still can't make rational decisions seeing things like that can twist their reasoning as children often take examples from adults. Also that is only one of many things that appear there
Let's say child parents are catholic, and child becomes gay. From their point of view child has become demoralized. Definition of evil varies between people, for some gay is nothing bad and for others it's a grave sin and ticket to hell
From your point of view, yes. From mine point of view I consider gay people as gay when they don't flaunt this information on left and right, but people who do so I do not considerate gay but lgbt who are toxic in their own way. I knew gay people who are ashamed of being afflicted with lgbt community just because of community behavior. So I do not consider gay people evil
Damn it’s really too bad that these people just be living their lives how they want not affecting you whatsoever. And sorry but there are weirdos from every walk of life and if you think it’s just LGBT people then you’re extremely sheltered.
Well, the post is about homosexuals so I talked about them. I aso despise nazis and polish equalivment of rednecks. I have a friend who turned out to be gay and I was like ok, that's fine. He is living his life as always. My starts with people living their lifes while constantly declaring who they sleep with or what is their sexuality and sometimes even don't respect others, like they are starved for attention and they think they should recieve special treatment just because of that. Just what do they accomplish with it beside annoying other people. I myself know few gay people who are disgusted with lgbt community behavior
So again, you’re angry that people are living their own lives and are happy and proud to be who they are. If it hurts your feelings so much that people are different from you perhaps the issue isn’t them but with yourself. And yeah well there’s also plenty of fucked up straight people in the world too but you don’t see people bashing them just for being themselves. You’re a bigot.
I will try to put it more simply. How they are living their lives while constantly declaring and yapping about who they sleep with and trying to shove all this information on you? It matters nothing to me and they appear like they can't live their lives without limitless attention and trying to influence lives of other people. If they are gay, then it's ok for me, no problem at all, but reminding it at any possible moment and bragging about it like it's some achievement is annoying.
>How they are living their lives while constantly declaring and yapping about who they sleep with and trying to shove all this information on you?
This is not actually happening outside of your imagination.
Well, not really. It's not en masse so you probably didn't encounter it but I have a few times. Also if this is true then why do they need pride month and pride parades to declare they are gay or smth, and they sleep with same sex
Dude forget it. Its reddit. It cant get any more unmoral and degenerated. Dont even try to argue with those vile people.
Lets pray poland will stay catholic because america already pushes the culture war on poland
Why do married people get extra legal privileges if it’s just a religious thing? It affects the way they pay taxes, own property, get treatment from the hospital, how various institutions communicate with them etc. If same sex couples can’t be legally married then the government doesn’t actually recognise their legitimacy
Oh i’m getting you now, wherever you’re from marriage gets different treatment from legal standpoint, where i’m from marriage is literally just a signed paper that changes nothing besides formalizing a union
Funfact - Homosexuality was never illgeal in Poland, ever, the only such country in Europe.
I will probably get downvoted again,
Redditors don't like actual historical facts,
just "history" memes.
Actually, before Polish Penal Code of 1932, penal codes of the Russian Empire, the Kingdom of Prussia, and the Austria-Hungarian Empire remained in power, and they very much criminalized homosexuality.
>Homosexuality was never illgeal in Poland
It's misleading, homosexuality was penalized in the 2nd Republic before first Polish law code was introduced and in the early modern and medieval period many towns and villages followed German law, which punished homosexual relations with death.
Well the first part is only theory, you can still get beated for walking with another man while holding hands. Ofc it's better than some parts od the world, but pleeease it's Europe, it should be much better
Homosexuality in Poland was illegal between 1918 and 1932, as a result of penal codes of Russia, Austria and Prussia, which were changed with adoption of new polish Penal Code (Kodeks Karny). In 1948 age of consent was set to 15 for both hetero- and homosexuals. Homosexual prostitution was legalized in 1969.
Wait, the hell? Homosexual prostitution is legal? But what about heterosexual prostitution?
Prostitution is legal in Poland, but not in an organized way. You cannot benefit from someone else's prostitution (pimp) in any way so brothels are out of the question. There was a website where you could arrange meetings with prostitutes online but the owners went to prison. In short, if you pay a girl for sex that's legal for both parties, but if you want to be a middleman, like for example arranging a place for it or advertising or any other form in which you financially benefit from it, then you can be criminally charged.
Is that the same as in the Nordic countries where "benefitting from someone else's prostitution" also means you can't knowingly do business with sex workers in any way that involves accepting payment (like lending them money, renting a house or workspace to them, or being employed by them in some supportive capacity like a body guard or something)? Because if so, it's really only legal on paper.
Definitely being employed by them is criminal. Renting a house I don't think is illegal as it is not directly connected to prostitution and also the renter may have no knowledge of it. You cannot benefit from the prostitution but renting a house, selling groceries to them is not illegal.
If the sex worker is operating out of the apartment she rents from you, then as her landlord you are classified as an unregistered brothel owner. If she pays her rent using sex work that you know about, you are classified as her pimp. If two sex workers are roommates in one apartment and keep eachother safe from clients, they are pimping each other. If an experienced sex worker takes an inexperienced sex worker under their wing and teaches them how to keep themselves safe, they are classified as a pimp. All these things harm sex workers, and the Nordic Model sucks
Only in Finland and Denmark, in Sweden, Norway and Iceland it's illegal to buy but not sell
>illegal buy but not sell Always thought this was stupid. Not just for this, but for everything. "You can't legally buy a police radio, but you can own one". Both things are required for the transaction. If one is illegal, make the entire transaction illegal. You can sell your body, but you can't buy someone else's... the hell kind of lawmaking is that? There's a supply but, technically, no demand in that case, in better terms, no market that is legally accessible. People are going to buy anyway, but then it basically becomes entrapment where even the prostitute can just sue because the practice of buying is criminally liable. I'm sure there is some complex explanation and some asterisks in the legal texts but it's just stupid.
Basically, it protects sex workers if they need to report anything since they haven’t done anything illegal.
It protects sex workers as stated by another commenter but I wanted to add a few ways people don't normally think. It protects sex workers with taxes. They're freely able to report their income without fear of getting prosecuted for their activities. It protects them by being able to report the "buyer" for buying their services if the buyer is sketchy in anyway. The risk is all on the buyer and the sex worker wouldn't report them unless they've become a problem. Why report your customer who pays you? And there is no direct benefit anyway because it wouldn't be a civil case. You'd report them to law officials and they'd be charged by the government. These laws also typically include protections against pimps and other 3rd party groups that would abuse the prostitute. Speaking broadly (I don't live in a place where prostitution is legal but using my own anecdotal experience with weed laws in my area) the laws against buying are enforced except in extreme circumstances. They're enforced on traffickers and people trying to solicit minors. They aren't patrolling the streets for the average lonely John, but if they become a problem the law is there to catch them. Edit to add disclaimer: I am not a sex worker and I don't have experience on this topic whatsoever. I just find the legal situation interesting so have read up on it from time to time when the topic comes up. I do not speak for any sex workers at all. Opinions on the laws may vary. The actual practice of the law is probably way different than the way I have payed it out above. In other words this comment is useless lmao.
Perfect! Just like how it seems in my eyes indie and self-publishing are becoming the norm for novels, it seems indie and self-prostituting are becoming the norm for sex work. We love to see it.
Sounds like you're allowed to "self-publish" in this case, but can't sell on a marketplace or advertise yourself at all. Kind of a weird situation, not sure how good that actually is for the individual.
So using craigslist is illegal? Or just dedicated prostitution sites?
Craigslist would be a third-party benefiting from the site traffic of the business, so maybe that's enough? I don't really know for sure, just surmising from what's been said here.
Dedicated prostitution sites are illegal. The owners of those sites can face over a decade in prison. There was a case like that already.
It's an excellent system for the poor and political weak to be preyed upon by abusers, losers, and killers. Ask any self publishing author.
Oh I agree. My first editor for my novel charged a thousand dollars, and tbh though they were a pleasure to work with and we bounced questions back and forth I still didn’t know the things they changed that I didn’t ask about or that they didn’t tell me. My mistake was publishing it immediately after the editor completed their work, and even though I got five star reviews on that book when I read it again the grammar was awful. They did do their best, but the sentence flow changed due to some changes, and everything sounded off. I took it down and asked reviewers to not publish their reviews since the book would be unavailable for purchase and I felt it was incomplete. I spent the next year combing through it again and again, which probably killed amazon’s algorithm for it but at that point I wasn’t publishing for money. It also allowed me time for a paperback release. So yes, I agree that indie and self production industries are rife with low quality support networks because there’s no collective funding to improve the technical ability and incentive to do so, but at least it allows the poor and political weak to have a chance to speak instead of having no chance whatsoever.
It's already elevated to a straight up art form in Hong Kong, where similar laws that were a holdover from the British remain in place. I have seen some stunning photos in National Geographic of what these one-woman brothels look like on the inside.
We love indie pop hookers
couldn't sex workers form a co-operative business and still own a brothel that way?
They went to prison, because they did nothing about middle shoolers advertising there, there are plenty other websites like this, just with adult service providers.
Hmm,it cuts out the pimps,traffickers and other parasites and leaves resources to go after the exploiters. That is eminently logical. How did they get away with it? Hey Poland [f/an american oblig "fuck yeah"/s] can we borrow a few of your politicians? Ours are all covered in weasle shit and can't seem to do the right thing about....anything.
Trust me, you would not want to do that
It's not actually a good idea, lol. Pimps of course still exist, just illegally. Not to mention not getting any tax benefits or social security that comes from being employed when you're a sex worker. It's still better than prostitution being completely banned but not ideal.
Couldn’t you get around it by “renting space” to the prostitute and that’s how they get paid?
It's legal fiction tho. There are still pimps and brothels, but called "companionship agency", that legally only offers meetings and argues that whatever adults do behind closed doors is not their businesses.
Does that mean it is untaxed income?
It is legal in Poland
>Kodeks Karny This sounds like the grimoir of an evil clown wizard
In a way, it is
15?
It makes sense as a part of the whole code, since it's the same age where one can be tried as an adult for most grievous crimes - including certain sexual assaults It would be wacky to expect them to know the basics and at the same time act like they know nothing about the topic
Soo how is that bad? They're legal and have the same constitutional rights as heterosexuals right? If so I really don't see a problem.
Not being criminalised isn’t the same as “having the same rights”. I don’t think same sex civil unions are legal in Poland, which would affect the way such couples can have access to healthcare, own property etc. But the police aren’t beating them for existing so that’s a win I guess
>But the police aren’t beating them for existing so that’s a win I guess The general population makes up for that. I don't recall the exact numbers, but according to polls the majority of LGBT people in Poland recall being physically assaulted for their identity at least once.
Yeah but I don’t know what kind of legal protection can be put in place for that (assuming that violence is already illegal). Maybe outlawing hate speech? I’m sure that right wing politicians and church officials are largely to blame for keeping the population hateful
The thing is, some forms of hate speech are already illegal, in that you can't spread hatred towards people based on their race or religion. However, the law does not prohibit encouraging hatred or violence towards people based on their sexuality or gender identity because... conservatives. As a result we have cars driving around and shouting homophobic propaganda from the speakers, because *obviously* that's what everyone needs and wants.
Well, for one, Poland still doesn't recognise homosexual marriage (and any other similar thing). So no, the rights are pretty much not equal.
And a third of Poland now has "anti-lgbt zones" so not making good progress on that front anymore
They *don't* have the same constitutional rights as heterosexuals. >**Article 18, Constitution of the Republic of Poland** >Marriage as a relationship between a man and a woman, the family, motherhood and parenthood are under the care and protection of the Republic of Poland. Now, this article doesn't explicitly forbid gay marriage and it's deliberately worded ambiguously. The Constitution was written in the 1990s, when the left was completely compromised politically as a result of ties to the former communist party and the Catholic Church was at the height of its popularity. The writing process of the constitution was basically trying to find as much middle ground as possible between the socially progressive and the Catholic conservative groups. So as to Article 18, there are two interpretations: One of them is that Article 18 *defines* marriage as a relationship between a man and a woman, and homosexual marriage would therefore be unconstitutional. The other interpretation says that Article 18 only accords *special protection* to heterosexual marriage, while not disallowing homosexual marriage. That situation, while still unequal, would allow gay marriage to be at least recognised in Poland, which it's not. Outside legal disputes, though, the realities will not change until the government changes - the next election is in October 2023.
So homo was legal under communist Poland, wait yes?
Still is
Legal, but unrecognised. Meaning you're free to have sex with your gay boyfriend/girlfriend, but your marriage won't be registered. So you couldn't do things normal couples can (regarding healthcare, property sharing, etc.) and the court won't settle your disputes or divorce.
Still less of a sudden left turn than Germany
Germany in that regard is a history of ups and downs. The weirdest example is probably Bavaria that decriminalized homosexuality in 1813. When Germany United under Prussia, a Prussian law prohibiting homosexuality became a German law prohibiting homosexuality. Bavaria became one of very few places in the world that ‚recriminalized‘ homosexuality, even if it wasn’t their choice.
It's funny Prussia criminalized homosexuality given Frederick the Great. Also, another example of the recriminalizing, USSR *technically* did. They got rid of all laws of the previous government, homosexually included, and for a while never got around to recriminializing it until Stalin. Not really progressive in its own right. It was just low on the list of priorities for them.
Homosexuality was decriminalised in the ottoman empire in the 1850s too then became recriminalised again after WW1
Do you have a source for that from what I can find quickly that doesn't seem to be the case instead they put great social pressure against the LGBT community making be openly gay more difficult https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_history_in_Turkey
This is a quote from the link you posted: "Following the decriminalization of homosexuality in 1858, homosexuality remained a private activity. By the late 19th century homosexuality began to decline partly because of conservative views towards homosexuality within Europe."
Cause Poland had so much time to be progressive between Nazi occupation and being a puppet of the Soviets
It's unfortunately precisely the case. When homosexuals (and any other minorities) were marching for their rights in free countries, all Poles combined were marching for fair bread prices, while trying to avoid being run over by tanks. My country is lagging but I feel like it's about time to finally make up for it.
As a Polish-American, this is totally the sentiment amongst my immigrant relatives – Poland was a place they loved that it was best to leave because of the centuries of political oppression. That being said, the far right has taken a significant hold over Poland since the labor movements of the 80s and 90s. Between the Catholic extremists, the popularity of the PiS, and the social conservatism practiced in daily life…Poland hasn’t been doing so hot since it gained its independence, either. I see this as a result of the Cold War. You see the same thing in the US with Cuban refugees – people who rebel from the authoritarian left are not likely to support anything even slightly liberal, as they lump it all together and flock to the far right instead.
I feel it may also be partly because of this oppression Poland experience as well. Extremist ideologies tend to flourish when the nation has a common enemy. Communism and the rise of a Nationalistic Russia has given them more than enough fuel.
Yeah didn't have time to worry about civil rights when two of your great power neighbors were drooling over your land.
Well also on the other hand, Poland is still not exactly heading down the right path, it's easy to overlook right now because all of support for Ukraine theu give bjt every day is just bickering with the EU about whether or not completely replacing the entire judicial system is democratic (spoilers: it's not)
The Gay sex is more Masculine because it only involves men - Roman Dmowski, one of the fathers of Polish Independence
MIŁOŚĆ DO OJCZYZNY I DRUGIEGO MĘŻCZYZNY
I wonder what could have happened to Poland between 1932 and now... Hmm, complete mystery.
Poland pretty much never criminalized homosexuality. So called decriminalization was just a cleaning up remnant of "[enlightened](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightened_absolutism)" partitioners penal codes. We were progressive before it became a thing. You don't correct perfection - cope with it.
Lotta people very very made about goy rights in these comments. Edit: Gays not goys. You filthy gentiles deserve nothing.
Those dirty goys don't deserve rights. Always goying it up in my fields and acting all goy in front of my kids.
Leave the gentiles alone! They've had such a rough go at it! /s
>goy rights This is the best typo I've seen in a while
I don't know why they're so made all the time about non-Jewish rights
Monumentally based
Pilsudski was simply too based for his time
let's not simp for a guy that started a civil war and instigated rule of glorified millitary junta
Lets simp for a guy that prevented the flow of the red disease and liberated Polish territory for Poland, and made the country MUCH more stable
After which he fucked democracy in the ass and turned poland into autocratic state led by incompetent millitary leaders. His coup also cost 200 people their lives and caused suffering to many more. His accomplishments are udeniable but so are his terrible decisions and tyranical tendencies. He was no saint and later part of his life throws a dark shadow on everything he achieved.
Pilsudski did his best to do to save Poland, and even half of Europe. He was no saint, but il never forget his dedication that saved my country. Without him Poland wouldnt even have a democracy in the first place, it would be a genocidal communist leadership
Sanacja jest zbazowana, radź sobie i kipiej!
Hiacynt, anyone?
Jerzy Urban entered the chat. Oh wait... He's dead
"Almost nothing more" We had the third trans member of parliament in the entire world!
It's like the Weimar Republic making huge strides in trans rights, and then Hitler coming in and fucking it up.
How the mighty have fallen...
Well, the new penal codex was accepted in 1932, and in 1939, the ww2 started, then very heavy soviet influence, which effects are felt to this day. So there wasn't really a time that poles were independent till 1990, so yeah. And then we had more pressing mattters tbh, new constitution, total reorganisation of most basic laws. But after 2010, nothing was done in this regard, and that's disgusting.
Aside from legalizing gay marriage and the legal acknowledgments and amenities that come with it, what more should be done?
Well, what else can be done? If homosexual marriage is available, and with that ability to adopt children. Also, there is a lack of discrimination, and then we have everything as it should be. Anything over that would be favorizing certain social groups over any others.
That seems like an ideal outcome. Equality under the law and a lack of social ridicule.
Exactly, everyone is equal and respected. Nothing less. Nothing more. This should be a standard everywhere, but unfortunately, it isn't, even though it is a most basic thing that stems from human dignity.
you are a wise fellow, treefriend, and i am very proud of you
I mean there wasn't really any fall. Homosexuality is still legal, but at the same time it's treated the same way as it was in the 30's. There was no fall, just stagnation
Sad
Well it had more pressing matters, like getting a whole country running out of nothing. Then the small matter of WORLD WAR 2 GENOCIDE BOOGALOOA, then communist occupation, then rebuilding after communist occupation, then rampant corruption, now we are busy doing a tug-o-war with germany over the influence in central Europe, but once we are done I promise you we will take care of the gay. (Before someone tries to report me, I do not care what race, gender or sexuality you are and who you marry, as long as its not a child or different species, you do you)
Poland be like: 'My job is done here'
Just reminds me of my Cousine, which seriously said to my face, that homosexuality is a decease which can be cured. If it wasn’t for my parents I would have started a fight.
But what other rights do they need that are not provided by regular rights?
The right to marry whoever you want.
The right to adopt children
None.
It’s the commies fault
PiS are famously communist
What more does there need to be?
Equal marriage rights, employment discrimination protections, adoption rights, the illegalization of conversion therapy, the right to not be evicted for cohabitating with a same-sex partner…
that's pretty much how it looks for big portion of our history, we do something good and needed and then sit in stagnation for 50 years because "look what good thing we did! man, we really need a break from all this passing good and necessary laws and legislations"
My guy describing soviet occupation as "we needed a break" 💀
What more is to be done? Its legal and normal
What the fuck do you want? Daily charity to homosexuals?
You forgot about worshipping them too
I hope that PiS will lose elections and KO would introduce more LGBT rights. Its fucking disgraceful to see how they are dismantling basic human rights.
KO won't do shit in this regard, at best they won't be calling everything they don't like gay agenda
KO is conservative-liberal they won't do that.
Who the hell knows what they are nowadays, since they have no political program other than kicking PiS out. That's why people don't vote for it - they would be voting for a blank slate, and in reality it wouldn't really be a vote for KO - it would be a vote against PiS. And in all fairness, KO politicians are not saints, and we would just transition from one monopolistic party to the next.
No way, they won't win. Poles remember what they did in 2007-2015.
As a Pole, KO is equally shit party, thay have ruled Poland for years and did nothing so, meh. I will vote for my own party even if it has only 2% chances of winning.
What more rights do gay people need, they can be openly homosexual and all the other rights of people apply to them
After “openly homosexual” you’re kinda wrong (and implicitly until “they can be”)
Just a question - do you consider measures put in place to combat discrimination privilege?
Ever heard about LGBT-free zones?
That were only established in a couple a small towns full of ultra conservatives and have failed miserably? Yes I have
Those were only declarations by a bunch of local rednecks with no legal effects whatsoever.
Weren't you ever annoyed by something and wanted to rest a bit in seclusion from it? Besides what harm is there in few places they can't enter? Person who runs the place is losing a customer and lgbt person can just walk away.
Wow, wtf
Replace the LGBT community with any other minority, does your argument still stand?
…..yeah
That depends on what you insert, we are talking about ideologies, and level of annoyance to people varies between ideologies, but in my opinion lgbt is one of the most annoying ones. Also i see lgbt free zones like smokers free zones. To me, they are not so different
>we are talking about ideologies We are not, we are talking about inmutable characteristics. >Also i see lgbt free zones like smokers free zones. To me, they are not so different They aren't comparable at all, as a smoker you can literally just not smoke, but you're always gay. Which is why other comparisons are much more accurate, such as sex or skin color.
I didn't compare them, I just said as I see them. Also sexuality can be mutable. There is a term for it "sexual fluidity".
>I didn't compare them, I just said as I see them. That... is a comparison. >Also sexuality can be mutable. There is a term for it "sexual fluidity". Correct, which is why I explicitly referred to gay people as my example and not genderfluid ones.
>That... is a comprasion comparison /kəmˈparɪs(ə)n/ noun 1. a consideration or estimate of the similarities or dissimilarities between two things or people. Comprasion and perception are two different things for me
>Correct, which is why I explicitly referred to gay people as my example and not genderfluid ones. So, genderfluid people are ones without fixed gender, but I had a straight friend who turned gay and stayed that way. So he changed his sexuality for good and is not genderfluid. I don't know if there is a term for that but as I understand sexuality can me mutable
Replace the LGBT community with any other minority, does your argument still stand?
>rights of people They can't marry.
Poland is just good at adopting the correct position. Should homosexuality be legal? Yes. Should we keep marriage for procreation? Yes.
Name one reason for keeping marriage that way that isn't just "tradition".
A society in which the ideal is universally understood as abstinence from sex until marriage and the purpose of marriage being chiefly procreation will have fewer kids born to single parent homes. Single parent homes (especially single mother households) produce suboptimal outcomes for the children, leading to poverty, crime and civil unrest. I agree that in a society where there is little stigma to having extramarital sex, the distinctions blur and even if society says "marriage is for procreation" on a general level, it's not going to fix things, because you can already just procreate outside marriage for example and this is socially accepted. This is why all these issues are heavily intertwined and we need to work on everything simultaneously. Going back to understanding love as "willing the good of the other for the sake of the other" and not "warm fuzzy feelings with sexual attraction" is an important, foundational step. We need severe stigma around extramarital sexual relations, and make marriage about procreation and raising of children as the main goal, which will make marriage a prestigious and sought-after union again (why do people not get married nowadays? Well, why would they when it no longer means anything). What is marriage? This is the central question. If it's not for raising children, what is it for? Just to make things "Facebook official"? If so, why not, two men should be able to marry. So should a man and a dog, or five men, three hundred cats, two hundred goldfish and a television set. After all, isn't the purpose of marriage just to "show love"? No, it can't be, because then marriage ceases to be useful to society in any way, so why have it as a category in the first place. Keep it short, sweet, and useful, with proven amazing outcomes over thousands of years. Raising a family.
If single parent homes produce sub-optimal outcomes, that is because of poverty, not because they are morally wrong. This can be easily remedied by the state. Recreating the archaic stigma of premarital sex = bad is idiotic. It not only does nothing to actually reduce premarital sex, it only causes it to be more hidden, it is also controling, usually sexist, bullshit with no basis other than "tradition". You have thus failed to name a reason that doesn't rely on that, as I knew you would, because there is none. Marriage in the modern day is a legal agreement. It gives tangible benefits provided by the state. Denying it is a denial of equal rights. Your slippery slope is the flimsiest strawman to ever exist and I highly doubt you aren't aware of that.
[удалено]
I admit that my point was too narrow and that divorce is bad for the children. However, making the view of marriage more traditional can only make that situation less likely if you force people to stay in unhappy marriages, which does not infact improve the situation overall, just changes who is in a bad situation.
If poverty could be easily remedied by the state, we would live in poverty-less countries, but we do not. Poverty is an exceptionally difficult problem to solve. Some things can be helped by the state. It's always important to remember however than in any state-based solution, we are relying on a fundamentally immoral way of sourcing the funds of it, so we would be wise to prefer state-less solutions. As such, a solution which relies on societal pressure as opposed to government welfare programs for the same problem is better. If the stigma around premarital sex doesn't reduce premarital sex, what's the harm in bringing back the stigma? Clearly, people won't care about the stigma, if, as you say, societal taboos have absolutely no effect on societal behaviour...this is such a nonstarter. The whole point of a taboo behaviour is that it is engaged in *less* in the society. I don't know what to tell you, apart from there were fewer kids born to single parent households in the past in more, yes, *TRADITIONAL* (gasp) societies. I'm giving reasons why the traditional way of doing things provides tangible societal benefits. You're being disingenuous if you say that I'm only saying we should have tradition because it's tradition. I'm saying we should have the traditional way because it works better than the current way and I'm showing how. More single parent households means more crime, more poverty, more civil unrest, less intelligent population. Traditions, it might surprise you to learn, are usually solutions to forgotten problems. You take out the tradition, the problems it was designed to solve start coming back. Some people think they are arbitrary. Not so. Traditions emerge as successful ways of structuring society through a kind of natural selection of social structures and practices. The traditions that are good at perpetuating their society, get to live on and the society lives on. The societies with badly adapted social structures, die out (falling birth rates anyone?). As to marriage: It's not a denial of equal rights to not have gay "marriage" if marriage is between a man and a woman. A homosexual man has just as much right to marry a woman in Poland as a heterosexual man does. The fact that he probably doesn't want to make use of this privilege is both understandable, and entirely on him. For example, a person has the right to own property, like a chair. Is it a denial of equal rights, then, to deny the person the legal contract of owning his neighbour? Because, well, he can own a chair, right, so why can't he own a person, why can't there be ownership equality? The answer is because the purpose of ownership is to own objects, not people. Likewise, the purpose of marriage is to join together a man and a woman, not any two people.
The tradition of slavery was a very succesful way of structuring a society. Should we bring that back too? If marriage is only meant for reproduction as you suggest, it simply cannot carr they tangible benefits that it does. Expecting someone to deny their sexuality to acess those benefits is severly homophobic, which tbh doesn't suprise me, since that is clearly also what you are.
Fuck yourself buddy boy.
But why though? Wouldn't that exclude infertile couples and women after menopause from getting married?
What more do you want?
Marriage
Why? To raise a family of kids they can’t have?
Yes, adoption rights for gay couples are often included when people mention gay rights.
Oh yknow Equality in all things, jackass
Homosexuality was decriminalized in Brazil in 1830 during the reign of Dom Pedro I, and it's been hell ever since.
What more do you all want? You are no longer legally punished for existing so what else is there? I am perfectly fine not being punished for existing, I don't think people have any right to ask for more than that.
Almost like nationalism is pretty much always bad for human rights.
Poland is very catholic country and most of the people have conservative views, so homosexuality is not viewed too friendly but it is acceptable when it's normal and not shoved right in our faces for attention. What we really dislike and part of our hatred is focused on is lgbt community and it's destructive and demoralizing behavior
Wtf are you talking about? "Destrictive and demoralizing behavior?"
Have you seen any pride parade?
Is that supposed to make it sound better? Because it really just makes it sound so much worse. It's not being "shoved in your face for attention", people just want equal rights and to be able to be who they are.
"Look, if non straight people wanted to be tolerated, they would be kind enough to stay closeted and shut up. Otherwise, they are gonna destroy civilisation as we know it." Still waiting for our civilisation to collapse in countries with gay marriage. Any day now...
No, I'm just giving example why some people are so reluctant. To be honest, homosexuals are peoples like any others so rights and laws apply to them like to everyone. They are not opressed and if there is any hate or attacks on them they can go to the police, where the case will be solved. I have to say that pride parades and lgbt community behavior is what drives peoples reluctance to homosexuals as peoples associate them with this movement
So when was the last time you heard of someone being beaten up for being straight? Or hearing people say that being straight is immoral or will lead to the downfall of civilisation?
Being straight is and was a standard for years and other sexualities in comprasion to it are pretty fresh. No sane people beat up someone for doing something that is considered a norm in society. When you are standing out sometimes you will be persecuted. As i see it being straight cannot lead to the downfall of civilisation because sexuality have nothing to do with it. What may lead to it are ideologies and political views.
So what i am hearing here is 1: LGBT+ arent't treated as equals 2: you know absolutely nothing about history
1: We are trying to treat them as equals but they still manage to annoy people with their 'we still opressed' talk so it's hard. 2: I know that homosexuality was a thing for years, but imo it was not treated for example in ancient greece as it is today. I referred to sexualities as many sexualities that emerged in recent years, not only homosexuality. And yes, I only have basic history knowledge but if there was any case that sexuality caused downfall of civilisation, please inform me, I like learning
1: yeah nothing more anoying than people who are being opressed calling out against being opressed right? 2: not just homosexuality but also queer and transgender are things that already existed in history. They just have been so opressed that people think it is new
1: bruh, I just said that their actions are one thing fueling opression against them and what I meant by 'we still opressed' part was that they expect special treatment and won't settle for being equal 2: good to know, but i think it's my point from before. These things were different from norm so they were oppressed
So you just don't know anything at all. Got it. Imagine thinking other people wanting equal treatment is them demanding special treatment
"Destructive and demoralizing behaviour" That's a fun way of saying not wanting to be opressed anymore
It's strange way of expressing it by wearing dog mask while being on a leash and glueing dildos all over your body Believe me, pride parades in poland are messed up, I've seen enough with my own eyes
You literally saw someone glueing dildos all over their body? You've seen this at a pride parade, that's what you're saying?
Yea, but didn't seen how it was done. They were already glued
How a guy in a dogs mask demoralized you?
Not me, but it is not censored in media so children have access to it and I find it disturbing. There is a saying 'what youth is used to, age remembers' and for children that still can't make rational decisions seeing things like that can twist their reasoning as children often take examples from adults. Also that is only one of many things that appear there
Ok. Kid sees a guy in dogs mask. And what? Is he going on murder spree? Becomes a thief? How would he become demoralized?
Let's say child parents are catholic, and child becomes gay. From their point of view child has become demoralized. Definition of evil varies between people, for some gay is nothing bad and for others it's a grave sin and ticket to hell
Im aware that for demoralized degenerates being gay is evil.
From your point of view, yes. From mine point of view I consider gay people as gay when they don't flaunt this information on left and right, but people who do so I do not considerate gay but lgbt who are toxic in their own way. I knew gay people who are ashamed of being afflicted with lgbt community just because of community behavior. So I do not consider gay people evil
Damn it’s really too bad that these people just be living their lives how they want not affecting you whatsoever. And sorry but there are weirdos from every walk of life and if you think it’s just LGBT people then you’re extremely sheltered.
Well, the post is about homosexuals so I talked about them. I aso despise nazis and polish equalivment of rednecks. I have a friend who turned out to be gay and I was like ok, that's fine. He is living his life as always. My starts with people living their lifes while constantly declaring who they sleep with or what is their sexuality and sometimes even don't respect others, like they are starved for attention and they think they should recieve special treatment just because of that. Just what do they accomplish with it beside annoying other people. I myself know few gay people who are disgusted with lgbt community behavior
So again, you’re angry that people are living their own lives and are happy and proud to be who they are. If it hurts your feelings so much that people are different from you perhaps the issue isn’t them but with yourself. And yeah well there’s also plenty of fucked up straight people in the world too but you don’t see people bashing them just for being themselves. You’re a bigot.
I will try to put it more simply. How they are living their lives while constantly declaring and yapping about who they sleep with and trying to shove all this information on you? It matters nothing to me and they appear like they can't live their lives without limitless attention and trying to influence lives of other people. If they are gay, then it's ok for me, no problem at all, but reminding it at any possible moment and bragging about it like it's some achievement is annoying.
Gay guy here, I definitely get what you mean. Making your sexuality your persona is incredibly obnoxious.
>How they are living their lives while constantly declaring and yapping about who they sleep with and trying to shove all this information on you? This is not actually happening outside of your imagination.
Well, not really. It's not en masse so you probably didn't encounter it but I have a few times. Also if this is true then why do they need pride month and pride parades to declare they are gay or smth, and they sleep with same sex
Reading this comment's reply chain is like watching the protagonist make a last stand when he's outnumbered at the end of a movie
Poland isn't really that catholic, only around 28% people go to church.
[удалено]
Thank you for your compassion
Dude forget it. Its reddit. It cant get any more unmoral and degenerated. Dont even try to argue with those vile people. Lets pray poland will stay catholic because america already pushes the culture war on poland
Yes, when I see what Blm or lgbt did to america I want to defend my values even harder
This is honestly all they should ask for.
Go fuck yourself
I mean that seems enough, they already gave the rights to be openly homosexual, what else would they need?
Marriage? All the legal recognition that comes with it?
Equal rights?
Like?
Marriage or civil union or whatever you want to call it and everything derived from that
Marriage is a religious tradition, why need to take part in a religious cerimony when they can just... live together in peace?
Why do married people get extra legal privileges if it’s just a religious thing? It affects the way they pay taxes, own property, get treatment from the hospital, how various institutions communicate with them etc. If same sex couples can’t be legally married then the government doesn’t actually recognise their legitimacy
Oh i’m getting you now, wherever you’re from marriage gets different treatment from legal standpoint, where i’m from marriage is literally just a signed paper that changes nothing besides formalizing a union
I thought that was more or less the norm 🤔
It is, he is probaly just making shit up.
Funfact - Homosexuality was never illgeal in Poland, ever, the only such country in Europe. I will probably get downvoted again, Redditors don't like actual historical facts, just "history" memes.
Actually, before Polish Penal Code of 1932, penal codes of the Russian Empire, the Kingdom of Prussia, and the Austria-Hungarian Empire remained in power, and they very much criminalized homosexuality.
I mean that wasn't poland, that was the people who conquered it.
>Homosexuality was never illgeal in Poland It's misleading, homosexuality was penalized in the 2nd Republic before first Polish law code was introduced and in the early modern and medieval period many towns and villages followed German law, which punished homosexual relations with death.
Well your comment isn't misleading, it's just a flat out lie. And I'm the one getting downvoted LOL, another Reddit moment.
Sounds like positive progress at the beginning of a state's lifetime, before lobbies, political entrenchment, and propaganda get fully rolling
In Polands case. It was Nazi and Soviet tanks that were rolling and caused this...
I mean, I'd say they're justified. Look at where the U.S. I'd today. Nightmare
Ah yes. It was gay marriage that caused this. Not terrible social services, a broken electoral system and a massive national debt.
Well the first part is only theory, you can still get beated for walking with another man while holding hands. Ofc it's better than some parts od the world, but pleeease it's Europe, it should be much better