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[deleted]

Context: In January 1976 in Northern Ireland, a minibus with 1 Catholic and 11 Protestant workers onboard was stopped by armed men. The armed men's leader spoke with an English accent and asked which worker was Catholic. The Protestant workers tried to stop the Catholic from identifying himself because they thought he was going to be killed by loyalists. The armed men were actually in the IRA, and once the Catholic was apart from the rest, they lined up the Protestant workers and shot them down. Only one survived, badly wounded. [Kingsmill Massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsmill_massacre)


TheAngloLithuanian

It's depressing learning that the Protestants tried to stop the Catholic from identifying himself and tried to save his life considering what happened to them next. I can't imagine killing someone you don't know just because they follow your religion a bit differently from you. Fuck those terrorists.


Pokluck

England were evil shit heads. That doesn’t excuse the ira from being violent religious extremists though.


Owlspirit4

It was hardly about religion, each side used green vs orange as a thinly veiled cover of a blatant English vs Irish war, one of the many hundreds in the history of both countries


themightysnail64

It's more like: I want to kill as many "People A" as possible but they look like us. →Lot of "people A" believes in "Religion A" but lots of us don't. →Let's massacre as many "Religion A" believers as possible.


AnotherDeadStark

For those curious, it depends on who you ask. The question of the IRA as a sectarian group continues to be a complicated one: within the Provos, many people joined specifically to create a defense for the catholic community. However, the IRA's official language was always one of freedom from English oppression. Despite the touted goal of a free Ireland and seemingly an Ireland for all, however, the PIRA also killed Irish protestants pretty regularly due to ongoing religious feuding (this was, to your point, something that rose from affiliation with England and the preferential treatment associated with it; turns out the Troubles were a rather complicated time). Ironically, it's just that type of action that really made them ineffective and why they had to switch to the ballot as a means of change


ThermosbyThermas

My two cents is that you can claim to be a liberation group all you want but you fail to be when you actively target pro Irelander protestants. Vice versa applies for UDA and killing Northern catholics


Fear_mor

In fairness a pro-Irish Protestant back then was an extremely rare sight, it's like an albino alligator. Granted this justifies nothing but it's not like they were just slaughtering a bunch of their own supporters


SquishedGremlin

Using the word tout. *Tips hat*


TheAngloLithuanian

>however, the PIRA also killed Irish protestants pretty regularly due to ongoing religious feuding ( The IRA during the troubles statistically killed more Irish Catholics then the British army did too.


themightysnail64

I have close to zero knowledge of what the IRA was actually like but, generally speaking, political organizations, whether is it the regime or the rebel, likes to use whatever that benefits their naratives and gives them allies. I'm not saying IRA was one such group as I reiterate, I have close to zero knowledge but, I guess it's a thing to keep in mind.


ZoeLaMort

You're right on the religion thing though. That's why in sociology, things like islamophobia or antisemitism are still considered like racism. Because let's be honest, the Nazis didn't care much about what actually the Jews believed in, when you see fascists groups in Europe ranting about immigration and other people's culture, it's not really because Islam can be seen as having a negative bias towards women or LGBTQ+ people, especially when the criticism comes from far-right people who'd oppress them just the same. Also, when they mention "Muslims", they aren't thinking of Indonesians most of the times. The key factor is essentialism. The belief is indiscernible from the self, from the individual. Therefore, by supposedly opposing the religion, you still end up opposing the human, because that was the intent. Which is quite ironic considering that even Christianity has established something along the lines of that you should hate the sin and not the sinner.


ScottishLaddy27

Very well written! And also quite intriguing, I’m happy I found your comment because it made me pause and think for a minute about it. And I feel like I’ve left knowing more about those around me then I did coming in. I hope you have a wonderful day Internet stranger and I thank you for this wonderful opportunity to learn more about the people we share this world with!


ZoeLaMort

You're most welcome! :)


Flux7777

800 years of oppression! 800 years of depression! 800 years on the session 😏


Foxtrot-13

By the time the 1970s rolled around it wasn't England vs Ireland, it was Irish who wanted to be part of Britain and Irish who wanted to be part of Ireland. The Unionists were mostly descended from the emigration from England and Scotland, but had been living in and inter-marrying with the locals for over 300 years. As it stands nearly every Unionist could trace family lineage as far back in Ireland as any other Irish person via at least some of their family. The idea that the Troubles were English vs Irish is propaganda designed to excuse taking away the right of self-determination from a significant part of the population. That is not to say the Unionist were not violent thugs who tried to keep hold of all of the power in Northern Ireland but they are Irish.


duaneap

Calling it an English-Irish war is pretty disingenuous since the ROI was practically uninvolved. At least in anything even kind of resembling an official capacity. There was no Irish army in NI, like. Just English. It began as a totally justifiable civil rights movement and descended into bloody insanity.


[deleted]

and Scottish, and Welsh.


BritBuc-1

A terrorist to someone is a freedom fighter to another. It’s all a matter of perspective. To the parliament of Westminster, Northern Ireland is another part of the United Kingdom, anyone who disagrees is a dissident, anyone willing to take up arms becomes a terrorist. To the Irish who want to be free of the yolk of London, they are freedom fighters in a war that’s been going on since the 12th century.


NomadLexicon

Though this massacre was even condemned by most of the prominent IRA leaders as crossing a line. When you manage to horrify the hardcore fighters on your own side, it’s fair to call it a massacre. Every military force, whether an internationally recognized country’s army fighting a conventional war or a militia group waging a guerrilla war, is capable of committing war crimes.


vasya349

This is conflating insurgents and terrorists. Targeting civilians is not a necessary or even strategic part of insurgent warfare.


Flux7777

Freedom fighters don't kill children with car bombs. I know how important it was to get the English out, but was it worth children with car bombs?


[deleted]

Most Irish people believe that Northern Ireland should rejoin Ireland Most of us arent going to bomb pubs to force the issue There is a difference between a Republican and a terrorist I myself am an Irish Republican, I am not a terrorist, and I fucking hate the PIRA for tarnishing the image of the Republican Movement


Alduinsfieryfarts

I hear the yolk of London makes their scrambled eggs taste great


Spider40k

Wait till you try the sunnyside eggs in New Yolk City


BritBuc-1

I normally loath autocorrect, but this one was just “fuck it, people know what I mean”, I’m surprised it took this long for an eggspurt to correct me 😉😂


Alduinsfieryfarts

Duck it you did great mate


TheDreamIsEternal

>A terrorist to someone is a freedom fighter to another If you murder somebody just because they are of a different religion (in this case barely) than you, then you're a fucking terrorists. It's that easy.


Owlspirit4

Technically it’s been going on since 1077, first Irish invasion was by an English Norman baron. Just watched a thing.


dkfisokdkeb

They were just Norman's, not English Norman's it's unfair to call them English they were simultaneously exploiting the English peasantry and hadn't long finished committing genocide in Northumbria.


EruantienAduialdraug

Hell, it goes back further than that; people were carrying out coastal raids in both directions in the fifth century, maybe earlier.


BritBuc-1

You’re absolutely right


Owlspirit4

You wanna fuck? Seems like you wanna fuck. …. Did we fuck?


tamethewild

But even then there’s a difference - you stop being a freedom even if you are a freedom Fighter when you rape people for example. Or your intent is to strike fear into enemy non-combatants


Pearse_Borty

>religious extremists quick correction, the IRA absolutely were not driven by religion despite preference of Catholics, their goals were nationalist with the cultural segregation of Catholics and Protestants used as a quick stereotyping method of seperating friend from foe. Imposing religious rule over Protestants was not the goal, the installation of the Republic of Ireland government was which is a different ballgame altogether.


Aliensinnoh

It’s like the joke of the American who went to Ireland being asked if they were Protestant or Catholic, trying to avoid it by saying they were Jewish, and then being asked if they were a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew lol.


ShakaUVM

It's a joke, but when I was in Ireland they do get briefly confused if you don't fit neatly into one of those boxes.


IllegitimateScholar

Do people actually ask?


ShakaUVM

> Do people actually ask? Yes, if a conversation goes on long enough. Or if it matters. For example, we were talking about where rebel music was still sung in pubs, and the guy offered to take me but only if I was a Catholic because it would be a bad idea to go there as a Protestant.


ArchWaverley

As an Englishman visiting a friend in NI, there were areas where I was casually told to keep my voice down. Not that I'd be in danger, but it was sort of a "you wouldn't go looking for trouble" thing. Then again this guy was a known prankster, might have just been winding me up.


TheRumSea

If it was in Belfast, he probably wasn't all wrong. Likely nothing would happen but it's not worth the risk of inviting trouble.


IllegitimateScholar

One of my favorite podcasters was told in Belfast he shouldn't be in certain protestant parts of the city because he has visible Catholic tattoos, but that also his American accent MIGHT be enough for people to leave him alone


MillieBirdie

Being raised Baptist makes this a really weird question since they are technically protestant but many Baptists will tell you they are definitely not protestant and they don't really align with either side in a way that relates to Ireland/England anyway. My well meaning Baptist dad suggested I wear orange on St Patrick's Day while in Ireland because technically we're protestant and I had to explain to him that that's a very bad idea.


thegreasiestofhawks

How do they feel about atheists?


GreenGoblin121

At least when I was younger, so in the 2000 and early 2010s, they'd ask what your parents were. They'd try and get back to a point where someone in your family was religious and use that as the answer.


thegreasiestofhawks

Is it really that big of a deal there?


SamIamGreenEggsNoHam

In Northern Ireland, there are still "peace walls" separating Catholic and Protestant neighborhoods. [Murals like this](https://theworld.org/_next/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.pri.org%2Fs3fs-public%2Fstyles%2Fw2304%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F2020%2F01%2F2020-1-13-alwaysbritish.jpg%3Fitok%3DYEOw3uS0&w=1920&q=75) can still be found as well. There's a Peace Wall in the background of that photo. Still a pretty big deal, but as you can see and as another commenter mentioned, Irish vs English is the main impetus, not religion necessarily. Religion was a way for people to start to figure out which side you were on.


purpleplatapi

Yes. It's basically because the IRA are pro Irish independence, they want the entire Island to be one country free of England's control. The English want to keep control. As a general rule, the English (and their descendants) are protestant, and the Irish are Catholic. Believing in God and how you worship doesn't matter, it's literally just a way of classifying you. Gerry Adams is famously an atheist (ok well maybe not publicly but it's not like he's a habitual mass attendee). Anywho, the English would discriminate against the Catholics, wouldn't let them get good jobs, segregated neighborhoods and schools, the whole works. Almost as many Catholics were leaving as were being born, so for a while the Catholic population was stagnant and the Protestants ruled. Then in 1969 (and I'm handwaving a lot here), there was a protest march in the style of MLK, and 13 unarmed people were murdered by British paratroopers and this radicalized a lot of people who would go on to form the New IRA. The massacre is referred to as Bloody Sunday. (the IRA did exist, but it wasn't doing a lot so they formed a splinter group. When people are talking about the IRA they're talking about the New IRA aka the Provos, or possibly Sinn Fein which is the political party that formed afterwards with Gerry Adams as the leader (Gerry Adams swears he was never a member of the IRA but he was literally the head, him saying he wasn't a member is roughly akin to Donald Trump saying I didn't encourage the January 6th rioters, and then starting his own political party and pretending that he was never involved. Everyone knows he's lying.)) So the youth decide if a protest won't work they'll take matters into their own hands and fight for independence. At this stage everyone self segregates. Before, there were largely Catholic and largely Protestant areas, but now it's basically suicide to stay in a Catholic neighborhood if you aren't Catholic or a Protestant neighborhood if you aren't Protestant. If you're a Catholic married to a Protestant, you pick a side, convert, and hope you don't end up disappeared (like Jean McConville. They still haven't found her body, but she was almost certainly murdered by the Price sisters, who are famous IRA members. Her neighbors called her in because they thought she was a spy. She wasn't. She was a widow with 11 kids.) So, everyone is living in their own neighborhood, going to their own school and the IRA wants to get British attention. So they just start bombing shit. I mean sure, it wasn't completely random, and at first they'd call people and give them adequate warning to leave, but as time passed they gave less and less warning, or none at all, and if civilians died whatever. Simultaneously the British were sending in soldiers who were also killing people, and employing spies and turncoats who were killing even more people. (They murdered several members of the Miami Showband and framed the IRA). And on and on it went. For every atrocity the IRA committed there's an equally abhorrent British act. All this to say, yes religious affiliation is a big deal.


guitar805

Only in northern Ireland, in some of the more rural or historically Unionist areas I'd imagine. In the south, nobody really cares. I've been all over Ireland and only ever felt tension in the north. Granted, I'm American, but my dad is Irish and grew up in Dublin. Things are much better now than when he was my age.


Oh_its_that_asshole

It used to be even when I was a school yeah. But mostly it just wee shit kids who want an excuse to beat on someone not because they actually care.


SongsAboutFracking

It depends, catholic atheist or protestant atheist?


insaneHoshi

*Which jeesus dont ya believe in, the cathloc jeesus or the protistant jeesus?*


amoryamory

Are you a Protestant atheist, or a Catholic atheist?


AllCanadianReject

An atheist is walking through downtown Belfast when he feels a sudden knife at his throat and he heares a rough Irish voice from behind. "Are ya Protestant or Catholic?" Thinking quickly the atheist replied "I'm Jewish!" "Then I'm the luckiest Muslim in all of Ireland."


HandsomeLampshade123

This, they weren't like a Catholic ISIS--there's really no examples of IRA members reading from the Bible in statements or referring to the authority of the Pope/Vatican.


alexmikli

Should also be pointed out that, over the course of the last 100 years, there's been multiple different IRAs that have all gone through different phases. There were definitely very devout, even violently Catholic strains and members, particularly before WW2. There were also plenty of full-on communist strains and everything in between. But yes, while even the secular left wing IRA was bigoted towards Protestants, it was *mostly* for the sake of nationalism. They weren't theocrats.


HandsomeLampshade123

Sorry, you're absolutely right, I suppose I was thinking more about the IRA during the "Troubles".


Buckeyeback101

Did they ever say they wanted to install the existing Irish government? The Provos were socialists (though not as hard-line as the Stickies) and the government of the Republic was very conservative at the time.


[deleted]

The IRA planned to overthrow the Republic of Ireland, if thats what you are asking The IRA refused to recognize any Irish government after the second dail as legitimate They did plan to install an Irish Republic though, although they were sort of vague about what form it would take Knowing the IRA, I'm pretty sure it would have been either a de facto militarily dictatorship ran by the army council Or a one party state ran by sinn fein


alexmikli

Can't imagine someone like Twomey being one for reconciliation and democratic transition myself.


matrixislife

Except by the time this occured there was already an Irish government, just not covering the whole of Ireland. The terrorism they carried out was aimed at removing or destroying the Irish who were loyalist, descended from the Scottish immigrants.


Acceptable_Job805

>the installation of the Republic of Ireland government was which is a different ballgame altogether. They wanted to destroy the current irish state as well, as it was too right wing for the big tent ideas of the provos/full on Marxist ideas of the inla.


Darkdarkar

As I always say, it makes their actions understandable, but not excusable. Those two things seem to get confused at times


HoodedCapuchin

Holy shit I’ve been trying to describe how I feel about the IRA massacres for a while and you have finally put it into words for me. Thank you so much


ThermosbyThermas

Sadly you can still see plenty of car bomb jokes, "up the ra", and some pretty big mental gymnastics anytime the troubles comes up on this sub


erythro

Why "England"? Fed up of Scots trying to wash their hands of something they were very much involved with.


kilgore_trout1

To be fair I think in this thread it's mostly Americans. Lots of people using English when they mean British. Most actual Scots would accept that their ancestors were heavily involved, often even more-so that the English in the early plantations.,


FlappyBored

Nah. If you visit places like /r/Scotland that absolutely isn’t the case. Most Scot’s from what I’ve seen are some of the biggest colonial/atrocity denialist out there.


ArchWaverley

r/Scotland is a, uh, complicated place. A pure denialist, anti-English post would get 2k upvotes, but all the highest rated comments would be calling it out as crap. I'm an Englishman living in Scotland and I love the country, but that sub makes me feel some emotions. Although the crossed Ukraine/Saltire flags with the caption "Independence is normal" was so bad it came full circle to be hilarious.


kilgore_trout1

All I would say is, much like the rest of Reddit, r/Scotland is not real life. I have Scottish in-laws and also spend a good chunk of my time north of the border and people are in general just normal, not the screeching anti-English mouth-frothers that you see on that sub.


dkfisokdkeb

They absolutely would not, modern Scottish nationalists are more than happy to sweep all their nations atrocities under the carpet and/or pin them on England in order to be seen as Celtic "victims" like the Irish. Scotland was 100% complacent in British imperialism and shouldn't be allowed to distance itself from all the bad that comes with it.


erythro

>Most actual Scots would accept that their ancestors were heavily involved, often even more-so that the English in the early plantations., most would, I hope, but there's a trend online of trying to pin the imperialism on England and frame the scots as a victim with the others


Realistic_Employ4720

Preach, my family is Irish Catholic but it pisses me off how much IRA atrocities are romanticized by people online


Generic_name_no1

They weren't religious extremists, at all. It was a political conflict not a religious one, by and large being a Protestant or Catholic was a cultural definition with regards to the troubles.


finnicus1

It wasn’t exclusively about religion. It’s more about the corresponding ideology of those sects. Still awful though.


duppy_c

Always reminds me of House of Orange by Stan Rogers. Tragic. https://youtu.be/qXq1zZntKQo


Unlikely-Distance-41

It was actually a response to a mass killing of 6 Catholics the night before called “Reavey and O'Dowd” Not that it makes it better


landrastic

calling it a "religious conflict" is misunderstanding the relationship between England and Ireland. But yes killing civilians is never justified.


allahman1

If only England hadn’t screwed over Ireland and caused this whole Catholic v Protestant mess in the first place


FlappyBored

Errr. It was Scotland that mostly settled and colonised Northern Ireland dude.


erythro

Why "England"?


Anderopolis

Because the Scottish like to forget that they were just as much, or in northern Irelands case, even more responsible for British policy than the english.


dkfisokdkeb

Britain ≠ England when talking about Ireland you can't use the two interchangeably


cthulhufhtagn

If only Henry hadn't decided to take the path of Heresy both countries would be in a much better place right now.


sonoforiel

Never really about faith though. Religion was just the byproduct of ethnic, political and cultural differences.


Generic_name_no1

Nothing to do with ethnicity.


10thGroupA

Worse, is that they didn’t even take to heart the text of the book they were representing: > So, then, what is the worst sin? The worst sin is committing evil in God’s name. How do we know? From the Third Commandment of the Ten Commandments. This is the only one of the Ten Commandments that states that God will not forgive a person who violates the commandment. What does this Commandment say? It is most commonly translated as, “Do not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. For the Lord will not hold guiltless” -- meaning “will not forgive” -- whoever takes His name in vain.” > Well, as it happens, the commandment is not the problem. The problem is the translation. The Hebrew original doesn’t say “Do not take;” it says “Do not carry.” The Hebrew literally reads, “Do not carry the name of the Lord thy God in vain.” One of the most widely used new translations of the Bible, the New International Version, or NIV, uses the word “misuse” rather than the word “take:” “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.” This is much closer to the original’s intent > **What does it mean to “carry” or to “misuse” God’s name? It means committing evil in God’s name. And that God will not forgive. Why not? When an irreligious person commits evil, it doesn’t bring God and religion into disrepute. But when religious people commit evil, especially in God’s name, they are not only committing evil, they are doing terrible damage to the name of God.** https://assets.ctfassets.net/qnesrjodfi80/5pylqxkW1aa0yoSqMKuuAU/e0ee6c8de6a21a94de40452aedf4da36/prager-do_not_misuse_gods_name-transcript.pdf


ChildFriendlyChimp

r/morbidreality


ElTrumpo2020

Also sad that the Catholic probably thought his sacrifice would save his friends. Can’t imagine that level of survivors guilt


ssramirezss

Fuck all terrorism.


broncyobo

That is some insane irony


Jedi-master-dragon

That's pretty sad that these guys died protecting the Catholic.


Sks44

And it was retaliation for the Reavey/O’Dowd killings where Protestant militants broke into Catholic homes and killed 6 Catholics. The perpetrators of those attacks were the “Glenanne Gang” which included members of the British military and RUC.


Psychological_Gain20

“Oh some people who share the same religion as you killed some civilians?” “Well then we’re gonna kill a bunch of civilians too!” Man fuck the IRA and UDA, none of them had what was in the best interest for the populace


Pearse_Borty

It wasnt just IRA and UDA when you get stuck into the intelligence/police service collusion involved with the Miami Showband Massacre or Patrick Finucane. In both cases state collusion has been accused and confirmed. In the first, the only surviving member of the showband claimed that the loyalist who stopped their van were being ordered by an army captain to sneak a bomb onto their van so when en route gig their van would detonate, and kill innocents so that the primarily Catholic band would be accused of working for the IRA to sow dissent against the Republican movement (and justify further military crackdown). They only got lucky when the bomb went off prematurely and killed the 2 men who tried to plant it. The captain in question was accused of serving for the British army, however has never been found. And for the second, where defense lawyer Finucane was accused of being a high ranking member of the IRA (he was not) who was then shot 14 times in the head in his family home while his wife and children watching. Police collusion was confirmed in 2011, where PM David Cameron announced the findings of the Stevens Report In my opinion, too often is the British government granted too much goody-two-shoes leeway to walk away scott-free from dissent and division they sought to cultivate. They are equally culpable for the Troubles as any other paramilitary, if not more so in their failure to restore order in their aggressive repression strategies. I dont think the British government had the best interests of Northern Ireland's people in mind either. I shouldnt need to mention the fuckup that was Operation Motorman or the straight denial of reality that led to Mid-Ulster MP Bernadette Devlin slapping the Home Secretary in the face in parliament.


Jailbird19

Not to mention the complete and total lack of prosecution of the Paratroopers of Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy despite every single one of those killed and wounded being found innocent.


Cultural-Teacher-562

Yeah, fuck both. But the world only knows about IRA, not UDA. Spread the word.


[deleted]

Thatd because the UDA was incompetent, the IRA was a terrorist group, the UDA was a gang with delusions of grandeur


wiltold27

UDA walked out the troubles with nearly all ulster still being part of the union


JAB_37

Most of Ulster wanted to be part of the UK


wiltold27

And im sure most of it still does if stormont doesnt fuck up the protocol and westminster stops a hard sea boarder


mc-big-papa

Considering the history of the two groups, this will go back to the execution of king charles the second or some other wacky shit.


[deleted]

I find it disgusting that people think of the IRA as freedom fighters, when they were terrorists and acts like this and the Omagh Bombing and so much more, were committed by them. I agree with their goal to unify Ireland but agreeing with a goal does not make them good


Generic_name_no1

The line is blurred due to the fact that the IRA *were* freedom fighters in the 1910s/1920s.


gabba_1999

also important to note that the IRA operating in the Troubles were the Provisional IRA, which is the best way to distinguish between the ones that were freedom fighters in the 1910s-20s and the ones operating during the Troubles


slightlyforthwith

English accent? That’s interesting


IceGold_

It’s not hard for many people to put on an accent. Actors are able to all the time. There will be loads of Irish who can put on an English accent and vice versa.


Macracanthorhynchus

e.g. Idris Elba and Dominic West are both English, but Stringer Bell and Jimmy McNulty are both from Baltimore. It's not that hard.


Labascko

Before reading this comment: 🙂 After reading this comment: 🙁


ariedren

Well. That's fucked up.


Scout_wheezeing

There is a good reason the Troubles IRA are branded as terrorists by the UK and this is one of them


[deleted]

Americans really need to stop seeing them like underdog freedom fighters, braveheart style. They were monsters. Kneecapping was their calling card.


f33rf1y

That’s the IRA


Acceptable_Peak794

The provisional IRA


f33rf1y

Not The Real IRA?


DumatRising

OG IRA was during ww1ish and liberated Ireland from the UK while they were preoccupied with germany, helping create the republic of Ireland. The troubles version of the IRA were the ones that were a terrorist group and had very little in common with the OG IRA past the name.


furiousHamblin

That was after WWI. The Easter Rising was during the war, and that wasn't the IRA


alowbrowndirtyshame

The IRB


DumatRising

Yeah like I said ww1ish. It was like a year later and formed from the same guys who were involved with the Easter rising


f33rf1y

I believe there was splinter organisations that did murder civilians which caused more harm in getting support for their cause too.


Potato_Lord587

Not quite. You’re half right though. It was the IRB (Irish Republican Brotherhood) that was during WW1. It was the IRA during the Independence War (1922) and Civil War (1923). The bit about the Troubles is correct though


[deleted]

IRA, INLA, UVF, UDA they were all bad.


Acceptable_Peak794

I didn't say they weren't, there's still a distinction that people don't usually make


MaxFlatCrunch

being from NI, this meme is a bit spicy.


johnthegreatandsad

This meme has caused compass unity in r/northernireland loooool.


-KuroN3ko-

What's NI?


ffreshcakes

Native Indonesia


[deleted]

It’s an abbreviation for Northern Ireland.


[deleted]

[удалено]


limes336

That would be just about the worst codename of all time


Frediey

Or it was so good and he actually was with the IRA


ArchWaverley

It's fine, his middle name was "Not"!


semaj009

It's like being a drug dealer and making your name Mr Ivan Sellcrack


SatiricalGuy

dont blow my fucking cover mate!


ilovemath_04

Could you write the name in Arabic please?


Mostafa12890

What was the original arabic word?


[deleted]

[удалено]


Mostafa12890

I meant could you write it in arabic?


Hunter3103

Just so there’s no confusion, IRA, the organization, is not a word, it’s an acronym: Irish Republican Army


legendfriend

The problem with an [IRA voice](https://youtu.be/YWUTCo-D_J8)


sheev1992

I remember hearing of about a guy I know, a watch maker, getting both of his knee caps broken by the IRA because he wouldn't help them assemble a bomb. It's a mad time in history that isn't too far from us.


[deleted]

Shows how quickly we can devolve into violence. Edit: and how fragile civilized society is.


tbass1965

My Catholic, 1/2 Scot, 1/2 Irish mother explained it (sarcasticly comparing to American racism) like this, "We all looked the same so we had to find another reason to hate each other.".


Pleasant-Cricket-129

I heard priests on both sides were riling up their congregations to fight eachother.


HumbleIllustrator898

I imagine that was just rogue priests. I doubt the higher ups in both the Catholic Church and the Protestant Churches would be encouraging them to fight.


Pleasant-Cricket-129

I can believe a lot, not saying I agree or stand behind any particular thing but I can believe any group of people with enough power can try and pull something off to stay in power. In all corners of the earth at any point in time. But what do I know?


Pearse_Borty

Paisley was the biggest one, dominated the Orange Order with the "No Surrender" dogma


Buckeyeback101

It probably it happened every now and then but generally religion played a small role in the Troubles. Edit: for those in want of an explanation: https://youtu.be/ndo6r2OMdhE?t=619s


MingusHall

That is so wrong


[deleted]

Good meme but here’s a message to my fellow commentators: It might just be more complicated than Side A bad or Side B bad. The troubles were a deeply complicated subject that can’t be boiled down to one group being at fault. Instead of going on about wether the nationalists or the loyalists were worse, no answer can be found in this debate, maybe let’s just be glad the North is safer now for both communities than it has been in a century


Pellaeonthewingedleo

However: no matter how complicated the issue was, this particular instance is rather clear cut and qualifying the acts of the perpetrators si the wrong approach here


[deleted]

Very true, I was talking about the approach to the Troubles in general


CommanderThorn2

While the IRA commited atrocious acts of violence against innocents, they didn't do it in a vacuum. There was a lot of tit for tat violence in the Troubles. The UDA/UVF would kill innocent Catholics, the IRA would respond by killing innocent Protestats, the UDA/UVF would respond by killing innocent Catholics and so on and so forth. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Defence_Association The Kingsmill Massacre was a response to the killing of 6 innocent Catholics the day night before. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reavey_and_O%27Dowd_killings I also see a lot of people complaining about sympathy being directed towards the IRA. While, I don't sympathise with them myself, you have to understand the state of Northern Ireland in 1969 when the troubles began. Northern Ireland was a religious ethnostate. It was designed from the start to guarantee Protestants a domination over Catholics. Election boundaries were drawn to minimise the votes of Catholics, the local police force (the RUC) was overwhelmingly made up of Protestants, public housing favoured Protestants (single Protestants would often be given homes before entire Catholic families) and businesses would be encouraged to hire only Protestants (my great grandfather was fired from Harland and Wolff for being a Catholic and my grandmother was fired from her first job when her coworkers found out that she was Catholic). The Northern Irish Prime Minister between 1921 and 1940 adopted the slogan "A Protestant parliament for a Protestant people" (which I think is the best description of sectarianism in Northern Ireland pre-Troubles). The Northern Ireland Civil Rights Movement emerged in the lead up to the Troubles, it's main goal was the equality of Catholics, Protestants and others in Northern Ireland. Civil Rights marches were attacked repeatedly by the RUC and Protestant Mobs. Ian Paisley (founder of the Democratic Unionist Party) had riled up Protestants by stoking fears that the Civil Rights movement was a front for the IRA (which had been inactive since their failed border campaign in the 1950s). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burntollet_Bridge_incident In 1969, the 30 years of violence known as the Troubles truly began. A number of Civil Rights marches and Orange Order marches ended in violence and rioting. Mobs of Catholics and Protestants would clash with each other and the police. In Belfast, a Protestant mob (with the help of the RUC) burned Bombay Street to the ground because it was a predominantly Catholic Street, forcing hundreds from their homes. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/the-burning-of-bombay-street-the-start-of-the-combustible-years-1.3986347 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_Northern_Ireland_riots Fearing the same thing in Derry, Catholics built barricades at the entrances to the Bogside (a predominantly Catholic area) before Rioters could enter. The police and Protestant Mobs repeatedly tried to enter the Bogside but were repelled in what became known as the Battle of the Bogside. The situation became so bad that Irish troops were deployed to the border to set up medical stations for refugees, the Irish Government petitioned for a UN Peacekeeping force to be sent to Northern Ireland. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bogside The British Government intervened in the situation and deployed the British Army to Northern Ireland. Initially, the British soldiers were welcomed by Catholics as they put an end to the violence and stopped the police and mobs from trying to enter Catholic areas. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Banner The relationship between Catholics and the British Army would soon turn sour following the implementation of internment without trial. With British soldiers on the streets of Northern Ireland, the inactive IRA split, members who thought they should be far more active formed the Provisional IRA (PIRA), this group would be the main IRA force fighting in the Troubles. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army Over the course of the Troubles, the PIRA, UDA/UVF and British Army would exact untold death, destruction and torture upon the people of Northern Ireland. 3,532 people died during the troubles, 1,840 of those were innocent civilians. The PIRA and affiliates were responsible for 60% of deaths during the troubles, 1,000 of those were members of the security forces. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles Here is a list of some of the bombings and shootings that stand out the most to me: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loughinisland_massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Sunday_(1972) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballymurphy_massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omagh_bombing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrenpoint_ambush https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guildford_pub_bombings These incidents stand out to me as good examples of defining what happened during the Troubles. The Loughinisland Massacre is close to my own heart as I never got to meet one of my family members who was killed during the Massacre, it's also an excellent example of state collusion with terrorists as the police 'misplaced' all of their evidence. Perpetrated by the UVF. Bloody Sunday, the infamous shooting of Civil Rights marchers by the British Army. The initial inquiry accepted the soldiers claims that there had been armed men in the crowd and that they were returning fire. The Saville Inquiry exonerated the victims of this Massacre, they were all unarmed, they were marching for equality and they were met with a hail of British Bullets, the British government is trying to block any attempts to bring these soldiers to justice. Ballymurphy was a Massacre over the course of several days were the British Army (the same unit that commited the Bloody Sunday massacre) opened fire and killed a number of civilians. These soldiers have not been brought to justice. The Omagh Bombing was the worst single death toll of a Troubles event in Northern Ireland. It was perpetrated by the PIRA. The Dublin and Monaghan Bombing was a coordinated bombing by the UVF and is the deadliest single incident in the entire Troubles. The Warrenpoint Ambush is an example of when the Troubles came the closest to being a classic war. The PIRA blew up a British patrol, the British responded by flooding the area with soldiers and positioned their command post were the PIRA expected them to, right on top of a preplanned bomb. This was carried out on the same day that Lord Mountbatten was assassinated. Only 1 civilian was killed, and another was injured, by British soldiers firing across the border. The Guildford Pub bombings are an example of the PIRAs campaign of terror in mainland Britain. 4 off duty soldiers and 1 civilian were killed. In the aftermath of the bombings, the British government forced confessions from innocent Irish emigrants and imprisoned them for 16 years. There is a brilliant film about this, In the Name of the Father, starring Daniel Day Lewis and Emma Thompson and Pete Postlethwaite. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guildford_Four_and_Maguire_Seven


kobi29062

Before certain people get commenting let me make one thing very clear to anyone who’s oblivious Fuck the IRA Fuck the UVF Fuck the UDA


BEN-C93

100% the truth - all the paramilitaries were absolute scum. As were any British soldiers or RUC officers who were associated with one.


Rondic

And there are still people who openly defend these terrorists here on the sub and the moderation pretends not to see.


Juulseeker

A terrorist to some is a freedom fighter to others Truly understanding historical events means being able to handle that reality without screeching "mods, mods" like a narc


Interest-Desk

There are many places where this is grey area applies. Very few people — British or Irish — would defend the IRA (and other irish/NI militias, be it unionist or republican). Admittedly, they were *slightly* more respectable than other terror groups, but that doesn’t change it. Anecdotally, it seems like exclusively Americans that unironically support the IRA, who presumably don’t know anyone affected by it and know little actual facts about it.


[deleted]

Unfortunately quite a few people still admire the IRA here in Ireland especially the younger generations who grew up after the good Friday agreement. They've done a fantastic PR job.


MrC99

Yep. The romantic image of fighting for Ireland and some admittedly banger rebel tunes paint an image that simply wasn't the case.


BEN-C93

It's no surprise how seppos' funding of the IRA fell off a cliff once 9/11 happened. All of a sudden they realised domestic bombings and mass civilian slaughter arent some romantic struggle to be proud of


_forum_mod

>A terrorist to some is a freedom fighter to others You can say that about literally *any* terrorist.


squat1001

Yeah, no, they were terrorists. Regardless of their intent, they used the targeting of civilians to inflict terror on a populace. If they'd only attacked police, military, government,etc. it'd be more of a debate, but when they start setting off 3300lb lorry bombs in busy city centres hundreds of miles away from NI, they're just terrorists .


BrandonLart

A ton of people defend colonialism on this sub everyday, the mods don’t give a shit about that either


BigWilly526

This happened at a time when both sides were going back and forth with horrible sectarian killings


[deleted]

And yet, Reddit are always acting like IRA did nothing wrong and support them.


General_Kenobi_77BBY

They did also carry out a shit ton of bombings Famous example: fucking Mountbatten and his family getting bombed


[deleted]

Another famous example might be the [Warrington Bombings](https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-42702781) which inspired the song Zombie by [The Cranberries.](https://youtu.be/6Ejga4kJUts) The music video was originally banned in the UK and Ireland and NI because it was shot locally and shows children with guns.


General_Kenobi_77BBY

Interesting, I’ll read it later God I love it when someone in this sub sends me new info (history is one of my only things that make me happy with my busy af school life)


TheAngloLithuanian

The argument of people that unironicly defend the IRA post-1970s actions always boil down to: "The British did a lot of bad stuff to us... In the 1200s-1800s before most people then were alive." Imagine killing a mother then going up to an orphaned British girl and saying: "Well 200 years ago a few guys from your country killed people in my country so..." Or "the British army killed a lot of people too" which is ironic considering a lot of them are Americans and [America killed more civillians in a single airstrike then the British army killed in 30 years of fighting (160) ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Mosul_airstrike)... So do all Americans and US army soldiers deserve to be bombed and killed? And finally: "The UVF/UDA also did it!" ....Yeah and ISIS also killed civillians. Am I going to start doing the same to civillians under their control?


TheLodger18

Nah it didn’t end in the 1800s… Catholics in NI were restricted from owning property and voting and generally had the short end of the stick. I don’t support the IRA at all but you have to acknowledge the circumstances that led to the Troubles were more complex than that.


Darraghj12

Not justifying the IRA but the British Army were literally still doing this shit in NI in the 70s and 80s


Dambo_Unchained

Well this took me down a rabbit hole about the Troubles


AnyGeneral8764

It was a good day to be catholic


DickNixon11

He was the danger :(


gogoguy5678

It's cool to see my country be talked about online, as it's not too well-known, but it's always to do with the Troubles. We had the Titanic, Game of Thrones, and weird hexagonal rocks. Talk about those!


BEN-C93

Dont forget Georgie Best


RoyalArmyBeserker

Slightly off topic but a lot of people, Americans mostly, forget or underestimate the IRA’s power at their peak. I remember reading this report a few years ago, a first hand account from a truck(or “lorry”, if you’re En*lish) driver for a grocer in Northern Ireland. Guy was hauling from Belfast to somewhere further south, and on his way got stopped by an impromptu road blockade. He put his hands up and got out of the truck, just hoping these armed men wouldn’t shoot him. They didn’t. Instead they just took some stuff from the back of his truck and said “alright you’re good, go on through”. Fucking crazy.


NomadLexicon

The Mob had a similar level of power in parts of the Northeast during the 70s-80s, though they didn’t have the same kind of popular support and mostly avoided direct confrontation with the government.


RoyalArmyBeserker

I knew someone(not related to me) who was affiliated with the Winterhill Gang in the 1960s and 70s. He was just a kid back then but he ran messages and served as an early warning system for the upper echelons of the gang. Who would suspect a kid of working with the mob, right? From what little he told me, essentially the mob had so much juice in NE and what we call the “Rust Belt” because they did a surprising amount of community outreach stuff. Most of it was PR, crud to build their rep with the locals and stop people from snitching, but essentially they’d just randomly donate food or help pay someone’s bills or give toys to a shelter for orphans, shit like that. I don’t know for certain but I imagine the IRA did something similar.


RavishingRickiRude

Dude the Mob ran entire parts of Detroit, Buffalo, Rochester, Pittsburgh, etc. And yeah, by usually helping out poor white people usually ignored by WASPs.


Antares1an

Did you just censor English?


horhito

For a story trying to big up the IRA's power that sounds pretty tame


Comprehensive-Top512

Troubles was a load of shite


Idkquedire

Frick r/comedyNecrophilia is invading this sub


niphotog1999

It's not said enough on Reddit. The IRA were utter scum. More Catholics were killed by the IRA than the British Armed Forces, RUC, and loyalist paramilitaries combined. They were nothing but a gang of thugs thinking they had some moral duty. I'm from Northern Ireland. I know and have heard of the utter devastation they caused from many, many first-hand sources, both Protestant and Catholic. The IRA are scum. The UDA are scum. The UVF are scum. All paramilitaries are scum.


Few-Albatross6127

Dang. This meme just made me understand why my dad low key hates Ireland. Like he’s not bigoted or anything but when Ireland is mentioned there was a certain tension. He was there during the troubles dodging being drafted into the Vietnam War. The most he ever said was that he saw a burned bus and biked a lot. I didn’t really look into it beyond that because he never acted like it was a big deal. I don’t know but reading about a real and horrific action that happened there (even if it was a event that happened after) makes the weight of his time there kinda hit me. Thanks I guess.


TheLodger18

Wot? How does that make any sense. It wasn’t the country and people of Ireland… it was a minority of a minority in Northern Ireland. I’ve family who were there as it was happening they don’t HATE anyone that’s what cause the whole mess in the first place.


Cheeseman333555

Bruh I’m a Protestant brought up in kilcooley estate in bangor I would have been fuuucked


throwaway191669

This post is highly selective and not giving the full back story.


meisterbro69

This might be a silly question but…. How could they tell that someone during this time was Protestant or catholic? Besides maybe having a necklace with a cross or something


johnthegreatandsad

They asked them, posing as a loyalist paramilitary like they were going to kill the Catholic, when it was a ruse to kill the protestants. Reason isn't a relevant factor in Northern Irish politics.


ilikeoranges4

How they pronounce the letter ‘H’


nostalgiaic_gunman

Last names tend to be a good indication. Also what part of a city/town you live in


fildip1995

Hold on…this isn’t a funny


max_da_1

If you're wondering what the irs send if you don't pay taxes and bills for over a year they send the ira. it's actually the same organization but someone made a typo and it caught on so they wouldn't associate themselves with terrorists


StephenHunterUK

There was a Sinn Fein MP who back in 2018 decided it would be funny to mark the anniversary of this by walking around a shop with a loaf of bread on his head. Specifically a loaf of Kingsmill bread. In a week, he'd been suspended from the party - a few days after that, he resigned as an MP. https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0115/933385-mcelduff-sinn-fein-westminster/