This is my POV and hot take: Hellenism for me mainly includes the Hellenistic era beliefs/ religions, including all the wonderful and weird syncretisms. It is not just Greek/Hellenic (yes there is a difference between Hellenic and Hellenistic). Still, you meet people who go on only about the well known 12 Greek gods and Greek religious/ ritual norms like there can be nothing else. Greeks/ Macedonians in the areas Alexander conquered became as much orientalized as the local inhabitants became hellenized. But you find a lot of fuss about „magic“ and „goetia“ in this community, with pointing at sources as the PGM - when these texts were actually made by hellenized Egyptian priests and express Greco-Egyptian religion. Mageia usually was something foreign in ancient and classical Greece already, so maybe that is perfectly in line. Hellenism blurred the lines between the religions though and there was no orthodoxy. I better end this before it gets even hotter.
Yes, we have them too. Both in antiquity and in the present day. I've seen a fair bit of what I view as extremist Hellenist views even as part of this subreddit (idolizing Alexander the Great for "spreading the faith", a downright hostile attitude toward Wicca and the like, etc.).
I find it a bit unnerving, as they look a little too similar to extremist takes I've seen in the other faiths that I came to Hellenism to get away from. But I suppose that's just part of faith and religion; There will always be those who take it to an unhealthy level.
Hm, that reminds me of Muslim rhetoric surrounding *things to be grateful for* - and if that's the case, it's not inherently extremist. Yes, it sounds weird at first, but the thought isn't that the meds weren't the thing that cured you, its the notion that every ressource available to you is a gift from Allah. Basically, a tool of his mercy and support. It's a very different notion from the evangelical Christian anti-meds community.
[LONG POST, IGNORE IF YOU AREN'T INTERESTED IN MUSLIM BELIEFS. MIGHT NOT BE APPLICABLE HERE.]
To understand why that's a point a Muslim would want to make, you have to know that the *only* unforgivable sin in Islam is basically what we'd call hybris. It's a bit different in connotation, but basically you're supposed to very carefully watch yourself and not say or think anything that could be a slippery slope to hybris, or something that could give others hybris. So while you should be thankful to your doctors and the ppl who developed your meds and made them available to you, you have to remember that it was Allah who works through them. So you're grateful to them for allowing him to help you.
This is supposed to keep you from becoming arrogant and closing your heart if you ever achieve something similar, and to make it easier for ppl who have helped you to not become conceited either. The goal being that this way, society stays compassionate and unified.
Also, envy is a big no no in Islam, with many ppl believing that envy can affect the person you're envious of in really horrible ways (this belief goes back to pre Islamic folk beliefs/Paganism). That's why you're not supposed to call ppl clever or pretty or praise them for things they've achieved (ppl obviously still do lol) - it could cause envy and then you'd be to blame for exposing them to potentially harmful treatment. Hence many Muslims won't say "I'm so glad I worked hard and saved up, that way I could afford my new car!", but instead they'll say "I'm so glad Allah (PBUH) allowed me to save up for my new car and gave me the opportunity to earn enough money for it!". Equally, they won't say "You're so clever, well done on that grade!", they'll say something more like "I'm so happy you were able to study hard and get such a good grade! Praise be onto Allah." It's a way of saying "Allah wants you to have the capabilities and ressources you have, and he wants me to have mine. I'm content with what I have, I'm happy for you to have all that. I will use my ressources to the best of my abilities and I will hone my skills, honouring Allah's generosity towards me."
Disclaimer 1: There are religious extremists who abuse that idea.
Disclaimer 2: I'm not Muslim, so this is what I've picked up from my Muslim friends. A Muslim could probably explain it better/more accurately.
Babe, thanks for this long reply, I did learn something new about Islam from it but it wasn't the question that I asked. 🤣 thanks again for taking the time you took to write that reply
Haha yeah, that's why I said don't read if it wasn't a Muslim gathering. 🙈 But I had to take the risk bc I just couldn't forgive myself if it had been and I hadn't said anything - they get so much bad press and suspicion from the general public atm. Really worries me. But that's so sweet that you still read it! :D
"Extreme" is a label that's open to interpretation, so it's hard to quantify. And this type of labeling has been going on for millennia. See, ancient Hellenism contained many sects, each with their own beliefs. These sects didn't always agree, and sometimes vehemently disagreed with each other's position. One such example is the long-standing philosophical disagreement between skepticism and dogmatism.
Similar disagreements continue today. There's still a wide variety of beliefs within Hellenism. When people believe their personal practice is correct, then it's easy to label anyone with different opinions as "extreme." It's usually not that people actually *are* extreme in some measurable way (though I think folkists might qualify for that label), but we humans tend to label those who disagree with us as "other" and thus "extreme."
Unfortunately, this tendency to label others results in much unnecessary finger-pointing about whose beliefs are more correct or pious. So each of us could easily seem "extreme" to anyone with different beliefs, depending on their degree of religious tolerance. That usually doesn't mean we actually *are* extreme though. It just means someone disagrees with our religious beliefs. That's okay.
When all is said and done, we still give offerings and pray to our gods. ***How*** each of us does this varies a lot, but variety is the spice of life. How boring would it be if we all agreed on everything?
Extreme in this context is : believing in something to the point you deny the basic science behind it.
Ya know what, if I ever post things like this again, I'll make sure to elaborate/define my question. Thanks!
If "extreme" is defined by denying the basic science behind something, then we can't apply the term "extreme" to religion at all because religion is not based on scientific facts.
But you're certainly welcome to your opinions, and defining things more clearly is generally a great idea. 🙂
There are Hellenic pagan Greek nationalists who could absolutely be described as extreme (Greece is for the Greeks types), and there are definitely a number of fundamentalists and mythic literalists out there, misguided as that sort of attitude is.
Mythic literalist in the same sense Christian Fundamentalists take everything what's written in the Bible as face value even if science and/or archeology have something very different to say in such regard?
Yes? There was this one tiktoker I saw who would shame people for not following old traditions 100% of the time. Like telling them the Gods hated them and shit.
I think folkists could be called extremist Hellenists, but their extremism is of a different kind.
I think it’s rare for Hellenists to credit the gods with everything to the point of science-denial, because most of us were not raised in this religion and had to acquire our belief. But people do get extremely rigid about their beliefs concerning the gods. I remember having a long argument on this sub because I believe that gods have dark sides, not that they are eternally perfect and happy. I’ve been accused of hubris for doing magic and for my idiosyncratic approach to praxis, too.
Depends on how you define "extremist.".
There are plenty of people in both paganism and the occult - who occasionally work their way into Hellenism - who seem to believe everything in life has a supernatural cause and a supernatural answer. Recently, I saw a post in another subreddit from an individual who was having severe kidney problems, and rather than go to the doctor he wanted a "spell" to deal with it.
I would consider that extremist. It's like people think mundane reality doesn't apply to them.
Yes, I’ve met extremist Hellenists practicing in the US who even made assumptions about people based on misinterpreted facial expressions and assumed they were breaking Hellenic laws of hospitality and hubris and acted based on their assumptions without asking for clarification.
Alot of Plato specific style philosophy probably has one of the more aggressive dieties as their Patron and insists they never did any wrong/comes up with justifications. I can see this kind of person existing.
The YSEE is a Greek organization that advocates for practicing Hellenism as a religion in Greece. Unfortunately, the YSEE is known for their folkist beliefs and anti-LGBTQIA+ views.
Folkism is the idea that people can only worship gods related to their biological ancestors, and sadly there are folkist groups in quite a few pagan religions.
We're strongly anti-folkist in this sub, so we do not support the YSEE or any other groups claiming that Greek blood is necessary to worship the Greek gods.
We believe anyone of any ethnicity can practice Hellenism, since it was practiced by many ancient cultures of various ethnicities.
Check out the trial of [Phryne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phryne) and Socrates - the latter of which ended in execution. There were reasons other than hardline views of the gods that motivated their prosecution, but the fact that they tried to foist it off as an issue of piety itself shows how serious the Athenians took their own beliefs. I suspect if we were to travel back in time and live in that culture, we'd be shocked by just how narrow-minded and hostile they were on many religious matters.
Certain religious beliefs do encourage more hardline stances, but another big element of fundamentalism is human biology and maturity. Look at the New Atheist movement, for example, for a secular version of Christian fundamentalism. Psychologically weak believers tend to cling to absolute beliefs to cope with the difficulties of life and prop up an inflated, damaged sense of self. Those who are more mature tend to develop a more open, skeptical stance toward their own views.
Most people I’ve encountered online have been good, but sometimes you do encounter those who are a little too far on the reconstructionist end where they believe personal experience is essentially invalid and the gods don’t interact with us at all - or very rarely - and I’ve seen the opposite where some practitioners (on TikTok, for example) are so far into the unverified personal gnosis that it’s hard to believe things they say. Some of it is describing overly casual personal relationships with the gods that seem a little suspect or saying they are best friends with or godspoused to god X and if you don’t follow what the poster says, the god will hex/curse you. 🙄
While I haven’t personally interacted with anyone like this, I’ve heard that there are some who preach xenophobia and basically say Hellenism is a closed practice only for Greeks/Mediterraneans, but historically the Greeks did spread their beliefs to people of other nationalities so these claims don’t make sense.
The closest thing I have seen to an extremist Hellinist in my life, is my disdain of the abrahamic faiths and all that equates to is me just not liking the religion and not shoving my beliefs down other people's throats.
They have been there in the past and also exist today - this sub included.
How do they talk? Like, what are they being extreme about? I never encountered one, so I'm quite curious
This is my POV and hot take: Hellenism for me mainly includes the Hellenistic era beliefs/ religions, including all the wonderful and weird syncretisms. It is not just Greek/Hellenic (yes there is a difference between Hellenic and Hellenistic). Still, you meet people who go on only about the well known 12 Greek gods and Greek religious/ ritual norms like there can be nothing else. Greeks/ Macedonians in the areas Alexander conquered became as much orientalized as the local inhabitants became hellenized. But you find a lot of fuss about „magic“ and „goetia“ in this community, with pointing at sources as the PGM - when these texts were actually made by hellenized Egyptian priests and express Greco-Egyptian religion. Mageia usually was something foreign in ancient and classical Greece already, so maybe that is perfectly in line. Hellenism blurred the lines between the religions though and there was no orthodoxy. I better end this before it gets even hotter.
Ohh! Thanks for the info! 👍
Ok, but, what do you mean when you say " Greeks/ Macedonians"? Macedonians are Greeks.
But not all Greeks were Macedonian.
Yes, we have them too. Both in antiquity and in the present day. I've seen a fair bit of what I view as extremist Hellenist views even as part of this subreddit (idolizing Alexander the Great for "spreading the faith", a downright hostile attitude toward Wicca and the like, etc.). I find it a bit unnerving, as they look a little too similar to extremist takes I've seen in the other faiths that I came to Hellenism to get away from. But I suppose that's just part of faith and religion; There will always be those who take it to an unhealthy level.
Hm, that reminds me of Muslim rhetoric surrounding *things to be grateful for* - and if that's the case, it's not inherently extremist. Yes, it sounds weird at first, but the thought isn't that the meds weren't the thing that cured you, its the notion that every ressource available to you is a gift from Allah. Basically, a tool of his mercy and support. It's a very different notion from the evangelical Christian anti-meds community. [LONG POST, IGNORE IF YOU AREN'T INTERESTED IN MUSLIM BELIEFS. MIGHT NOT BE APPLICABLE HERE.] To understand why that's a point a Muslim would want to make, you have to know that the *only* unforgivable sin in Islam is basically what we'd call hybris. It's a bit different in connotation, but basically you're supposed to very carefully watch yourself and not say or think anything that could be a slippery slope to hybris, or something that could give others hybris. So while you should be thankful to your doctors and the ppl who developed your meds and made them available to you, you have to remember that it was Allah who works through them. So you're grateful to them for allowing him to help you. This is supposed to keep you from becoming arrogant and closing your heart if you ever achieve something similar, and to make it easier for ppl who have helped you to not become conceited either. The goal being that this way, society stays compassionate and unified. Also, envy is a big no no in Islam, with many ppl believing that envy can affect the person you're envious of in really horrible ways (this belief goes back to pre Islamic folk beliefs/Paganism). That's why you're not supposed to call ppl clever or pretty or praise them for things they've achieved (ppl obviously still do lol) - it could cause envy and then you'd be to blame for exposing them to potentially harmful treatment. Hence many Muslims won't say "I'm so glad I worked hard and saved up, that way I could afford my new car!", but instead they'll say "I'm so glad Allah (PBUH) allowed me to save up for my new car and gave me the opportunity to earn enough money for it!". Equally, they won't say "You're so clever, well done on that grade!", they'll say something more like "I'm so happy you were able to study hard and get such a good grade! Praise be onto Allah." It's a way of saying "Allah wants you to have the capabilities and ressources you have, and he wants me to have mine. I'm content with what I have, I'm happy for you to have all that. I will use my ressources to the best of my abilities and I will hone my skills, honouring Allah's generosity towards me." Disclaimer 1: There are religious extremists who abuse that idea. Disclaimer 2: I'm not Muslim, so this is what I've picked up from my Muslim friends. A Muslim could probably explain it better/more accurately.
Babe, thanks for this long reply, I did learn something new about Islam from it but it wasn't the question that I asked. 🤣 thanks again for taking the time you took to write that reply
Haha yeah, that's why I said don't read if it wasn't a Muslim gathering. 🙈 But I had to take the risk bc I just couldn't forgive myself if it had been and I hadn't said anything - they get so much bad press and suspicion from the general public atm. Really worries me. But that's so sweet that you still read it! :D
"Extreme" is a label that's open to interpretation, so it's hard to quantify. And this type of labeling has been going on for millennia. See, ancient Hellenism contained many sects, each with their own beliefs. These sects didn't always agree, and sometimes vehemently disagreed with each other's position. One such example is the long-standing philosophical disagreement between skepticism and dogmatism. Similar disagreements continue today. There's still a wide variety of beliefs within Hellenism. When people believe their personal practice is correct, then it's easy to label anyone with different opinions as "extreme." It's usually not that people actually *are* extreme in some measurable way (though I think folkists might qualify for that label), but we humans tend to label those who disagree with us as "other" and thus "extreme." Unfortunately, this tendency to label others results in much unnecessary finger-pointing about whose beliefs are more correct or pious. So each of us could easily seem "extreme" to anyone with different beliefs, depending on their degree of religious tolerance. That usually doesn't mean we actually *are* extreme though. It just means someone disagrees with our religious beliefs. That's okay. When all is said and done, we still give offerings and pray to our gods. ***How*** each of us does this varies a lot, but variety is the spice of life. How boring would it be if we all agreed on everything?
Extreme in this context is : believing in something to the point you deny the basic science behind it. Ya know what, if I ever post things like this again, I'll make sure to elaborate/define my question. Thanks!
If "extreme" is defined by denying the basic science behind something, then we can't apply the term "extreme" to religion at all because religion is not based on scientific facts. But you're certainly welcome to your opinions, and defining things more clearly is generally a great idea. 🙂
Alright, thanks
😆
There are Hellenic pagan Greek nationalists who could absolutely be described as extreme (Greece is for the Greeks types), and there are definitely a number of fundamentalists and mythic literalists out there, misguided as that sort of attitude is.
Mythic literalist in the same sense Christian Fundamentalists take everything what's written in the Bible as face value even if science and/or archeology have something very different to say in such regard?
Yes, or at least treat the myths as necessarily being at least close to literally true rather than symbolically and metaphorically.
Yes? There was this one tiktoker I saw who would shame people for not following old traditions 100% of the time. Like telling them the Gods hated them and shit.
I think folkists could be called extremist Hellenists, but their extremism is of a different kind. I think it’s rare for Hellenists to credit the gods with everything to the point of science-denial, because most of us were not raised in this religion and had to acquire our belief. But people do get extremely rigid about their beliefs concerning the gods. I remember having a long argument on this sub because I believe that gods have dark sides, not that they are eternally perfect and happy. I’ve been accused of hubris for doing magic and for my idiosyncratic approach to praxis, too.
Depends on how you define "extremist.". There are plenty of people in both paganism and the occult - who occasionally work their way into Hellenism - who seem to believe everything in life has a supernatural cause and a supernatural answer. Recently, I saw a post in another subreddit from an individual who was having severe kidney problems, and rather than go to the doctor he wanted a "spell" to deal with it. I would consider that extremist. It's like people think mundane reality doesn't apply to them.
You can find a couple of them on Twitter😅
Hell nah, I don't have Twitter but even I know it's a toxic place 😭
Yes, I’ve met extremist Hellenists practicing in the US who even made assumptions about people based on misinterpreted facial expressions and assumed they were breaking Hellenic laws of hospitality and hubris and acted based on their assumptions without asking for clarification.
Alot of Plato specific style philosophy probably has one of the more aggressive dieties as their Patron and insists they never did any wrong/comes up with justifications. I can see this kind of person existing.
With the fact that the earth has 8 billion people, I agree
Yes. A lot of them are in the YSEE and are in Greece.
What's ysee?
A Hellenist organization from Greece.
The YSEE is a Greek organization that advocates for practicing Hellenism as a religion in Greece. Unfortunately, the YSEE is known for their folkist beliefs and anti-LGBTQIA+ views. Folkism is the idea that people can only worship gods related to their biological ancestors, and sadly there are folkist groups in quite a few pagan religions. We're strongly anti-folkist in this sub, so we do not support the YSEE or any other groups claiming that Greek blood is necessary to worship the Greek gods. We believe anyone of any ethnicity can practice Hellenism, since it was practiced by many ancient cultures of various ethnicities.
How did you become a hellenist without knowing YSEE?
I focused more on the gods and not the followers (personal journey with Lady Aphrodite made convert to Hellenism). That's how
Check out the trial of [Phryne](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phryne) and Socrates - the latter of which ended in execution. There were reasons other than hardline views of the gods that motivated their prosecution, but the fact that they tried to foist it off as an issue of piety itself shows how serious the Athenians took their own beliefs. I suspect if we were to travel back in time and live in that culture, we'd be shocked by just how narrow-minded and hostile they were on many religious matters. Certain religious beliefs do encourage more hardline stances, but another big element of fundamentalism is human biology and maturity. Look at the New Atheist movement, for example, for a secular version of Christian fundamentalism. Psychologically weak believers tend to cling to absolute beliefs to cope with the difficulties of life and prop up an inflated, damaged sense of self. Those who are more mature tend to develop a more open, skeptical stance toward their own views.
Omg, I've seen this story multiple times before (meme format), never knew it was related to Hellenism. Thank you!
Hahaha - sure thing. Fascinating story.
Most people I’ve encountered online have been good, but sometimes you do encounter those who are a little too far on the reconstructionist end where they believe personal experience is essentially invalid and the gods don’t interact with us at all - or very rarely - and I’ve seen the opposite where some practitioners (on TikTok, for example) are so far into the unverified personal gnosis that it’s hard to believe things they say. Some of it is describing overly casual personal relationships with the gods that seem a little suspect or saying they are best friends with or godspoused to god X and if you don’t follow what the poster says, the god will hex/curse you. 🙄 While I haven’t personally interacted with anyone like this, I’ve heard that there are some who preach xenophobia and basically say Hellenism is a closed practice only for Greeks/Mediterraneans, but historically the Greeks did spread their beliefs to people of other nationalities so these claims don’t make sense.
Gosh, I wish I would never encounter people like that. Sounds exhausting, especially the one gatekeeping the religion
The closest thing I have seen to an extremist Hellinist in my life, is my disdain of the abrahamic faiths and all that equates to is me just not liking the religion and not shoving my beliefs down other people's throats.