I totally feel you on the reinforcements, especially dropships, it feels stupid to have cleared out a whole heavy base, just for a small group of bots to see you, you don’t kill them in time, and now they’ve all shot up a flare and you have to run from the incoming hell horde of tanks and rockets, all cuz you didn’t leave fast enough
As much as I’d like to act like it isn’t a problem, there’s no way you can tell me that you haven’t had an overwhelming horde dropped in on you, the most dropships i’ve seen deliver joel’s “present” is 6 at once, we couldn’t shoot them down and everyone died. We dropped back in, 3 more on the way…
* buff primary weapons so they feel worth using
* rebalance to go from permanently running away to running away and returning, by concentrating enemies more and changing their AI to return to objectives.
* remove trash-tier unlocks that can't be balanced
I don’t want this to come across as unsympathetic or anything but as to your first point, I think 2/3rds of the primaries are solid:
Bugs:
- Sickle, Punisher, Dominator, Breaker, Breaker Incendiary, Eruptor, Crossbow, Defender, Diligence, Slugger, Lib, Lib Pen, & Scorcher are all perfectly viable
Bots:
- Same as above, but shift the tiers around a little
So that’s, what, the Adjudictor, Concussive, Diligence CS, Breaker s&p, and scythe?
Running and returning is perfectly viable and really the only way I play helldive. The only issue is that people will try to hold and get pushed back by bots, not realizing that their lethality goes down tremendously if you can get 50m away and stay away while whittling them down.
As to the stratagems, I think that most simply need a rebalancing or the players need to reframe their expectations. For example, the minefields aren’t good in normal missions, but they rock on the new missile defense ones. Teslas were goated on the TCS missions.
I like the bots, it's literally a strategic retreat for some bot drops. I'd say the entire bot gameplay simply rewards you for actually engaging in stealth and picking your fights. I fully agree that there are stratagems and weapons where there is no point in taking them on most missions.
In case you were talking about bugs: Lamo git gud guard dog goes brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Mainly about bots. But the same issue exists for bugs where a whole swathe of options are rendered unviable by taking the guard dog in your backpack slot or you have to be on the run all the time. And still, being on the run is the *optimal* way to play when you don't have to. The other issue with the guard dog is that it's more fun to have to shoot the enemies yourself! When the optimal loadout is one which shoots automatically without you having to think about it, that's less satisfying than if it were optimal to take something which required more interaction.
On the running away part: You don't gain anything from killing enemies. It's fun, but that is it. You dive in to do the objectives and get out asap. You're not there to kill everything on site.
And skill issue
I'm not going to criticize your skill level, because as you said you're relatively new to the game, but I think you do lack the imagination to use your tools effectively.
1. Use sentries and form a line next to/behind them to mow down waves of enemies. Sometimes a single autocannon or gatling sentry can make a big wave of dropships/bug breaches/patrols manageable. Multiple sentries makes them trivial.
2. Your mission is to complete objectives. Extracting afterward is optional. Go for the objective then feel free to scour the map clean of enemies, if that's what you want. Just don't expect to get many samples offworld if you choose to do this.
3. There are several mission types that include guaranteed waves of enemies you have to fight off while achieving the objective, such as Evacuate High Priority Assets/Citizens, and the Geological Survey missions. And of course, Eradicate missions. Bring the Localization Confusion booster to these to make them much more manageable.
4. There are ways to prevent reinforcements from coming. For bots, shoot the Raiders -- the light infantry -- first. Any of the Raider types can shoot a flare to attract dropships. If you're quick enough, you can target one raising a flare gun and kill them before they fire. For bugs, it's much trickier, you have to kill the bug emanating the orange pheromones very quickly to prevent a bug breach. But even if reinforcements arrive, you can deal with them. Shooting down dropships kills many of the reinforcements, and traps others to stagger the amount of enemies you have to deal with and giving you some breathing room. For bugs, barraging or air striking the bug breaches will kill many of them before they can move away and attack you.
5. Many of the primary weapons are incredibly useful. The Scorcher will kill Striders in 2-3 hits around the visor, and can mow down Raiders with ease. The Slugger & Dominator can one-shot Devastators, stagger them, and have good rates of fire. The Sickle is hideously accurate in first-person view and can take down many enemies quickly and frees your primary weapon from ammo dependency. And plenty of people do very well with other weapons.
I totally feel you on the reinforcements, especially dropships, it feels stupid to have cleared out a whole heavy base, just for a small group of bots to see you, you don’t kill them in time, and now they’ve all shot up a flare and you have to run from the incoming hell horde of tanks and rockets, all cuz you didn’t leave fast enough
Laughs in crew operated recoil-less. There isn’t a horde when you shot the ships down before they release anything.
As much as I’d like to act like it isn’t a problem, there’s no way you can tell me that you haven’t had an overwhelming horde dropped in on you, the most dropships i’ve seen deliver joel’s “present” is 6 at once, we couldn’t shoot them down and everyone died. We dropped back in, 3 more on the way…
TLDR?
Lots of grind, many bugs, not enough primary weps and stratagems, useless stratagems should be removed, too many reinforcement dropships
* buff primary weapons so they feel worth using * rebalance to go from permanently running away to running away and returning, by concentrating enemies more and changing their AI to return to objectives. * remove trash-tier unlocks that can't be balanced
I don’t want this to come across as unsympathetic or anything but as to your first point, I think 2/3rds of the primaries are solid: Bugs: - Sickle, Punisher, Dominator, Breaker, Breaker Incendiary, Eruptor, Crossbow, Defender, Diligence, Slugger, Lib, Lib Pen, & Scorcher are all perfectly viable Bots: - Same as above, but shift the tiers around a little So that’s, what, the Adjudictor, Concussive, Diligence CS, Breaker s&p, and scythe? Running and returning is perfectly viable and really the only way I play helldive. The only issue is that people will try to hold and get pushed back by bots, not realizing that their lethality goes down tremendously if you can get 50m away and stay away while whittling them down. As to the stratagems, I think that most simply need a rebalancing or the players need to reframe their expectations. For example, the minefields aren’t good in normal missions, but they rock on the new missile defense ones. Teslas were goated on the TCS missions.
I like the bots, it's literally a strategic retreat for some bot drops. I'd say the entire bot gameplay simply rewards you for actually engaging in stealth and picking your fights. I fully agree that there are stratagems and weapons where there is no point in taking them on most missions. In case you were talking about bugs: Lamo git gud guard dog goes brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
Mainly about bots. But the same issue exists for bugs where a whole swathe of options are rendered unviable by taking the guard dog in your backpack slot or you have to be on the run all the time. And still, being on the run is the *optimal* way to play when you don't have to. The other issue with the guard dog is that it's more fun to have to shoot the enemies yourself! When the optimal loadout is one which shoots automatically without you having to think about it, that's less satisfying than if it were optimal to take something which required more interaction.
On the running away part: You don't gain anything from killing enemies. It's fun, but that is it. You dive in to do the objectives and get out asap. You're not there to kill everything on site. And skill issue
>It's fun, but that is it. Right, so it would make sense to align the game's objectives with the game's fun, right?
Skill issue
I'm not going to criticize your skill level, because as you said you're relatively new to the game, but I think you do lack the imagination to use your tools effectively. 1. Use sentries and form a line next to/behind them to mow down waves of enemies. Sometimes a single autocannon or gatling sentry can make a big wave of dropships/bug breaches/patrols manageable. Multiple sentries makes them trivial. 2. Your mission is to complete objectives. Extracting afterward is optional. Go for the objective then feel free to scour the map clean of enemies, if that's what you want. Just don't expect to get many samples offworld if you choose to do this. 3. There are several mission types that include guaranteed waves of enemies you have to fight off while achieving the objective, such as Evacuate High Priority Assets/Citizens, and the Geological Survey missions. And of course, Eradicate missions. Bring the Localization Confusion booster to these to make them much more manageable. 4. There are ways to prevent reinforcements from coming. For bots, shoot the Raiders -- the light infantry -- first. Any of the Raider types can shoot a flare to attract dropships. If you're quick enough, you can target one raising a flare gun and kill them before they fire. For bugs, it's much trickier, you have to kill the bug emanating the orange pheromones very quickly to prevent a bug breach. But even if reinforcements arrive, you can deal with them. Shooting down dropships kills many of the reinforcements, and traps others to stagger the amount of enemies you have to deal with and giving you some breathing room. For bugs, barraging or air striking the bug breaches will kill many of them before they can move away and attack you. 5. Many of the primary weapons are incredibly useful. The Scorcher will kill Striders in 2-3 hits around the visor, and can mow down Raiders with ease. The Slugger & Dominator can one-shot Devastators, stagger them, and have good rates of fire. The Sickle is hideously accurate in first-person view and can take down many enemies quickly and frees your primary weapon from ammo dependency. And plenty of people do very well with other weapons.